It is frustrating that I could not find anything about this forum on the website of either the Washington Post or the New York Times, save a brief reference in today's column by E.J. Dionne. Ironic, isn't it, that the mainstream media are honing in just the "leading three" candidates, but when there is a forum featuring only those leading three they ignore it (ostensibly because it doesn't feature the whole pack).

I really wish Sojourners had invited all the candidates. Not only might it have gotten more mainstream media attention, but let's admit, it would have been more fair.

I respectfully disagree with the contention that last night’s forum represents a "good sign" for evangelicals. It reinforced the anemic popular definition of “faith” as a generic inner source of values. This is only good news if our concern is the triumph of Christian identity, which is worn by all who say, “Lord, Lord.”

I saw two forms of faith on display last night. The first was the personal, and this is where people were identifiably Christian. Clinton prays, Obama talks about the Bible. Edwards (repeatedly) claims Jesus as Lord.

But evidently the Christianity of this personal faith doesn't transgress into policy. When the candidates talked policy, they spoke in terms of a civil religio-morality, with goals of care for the poor, justice, stewardship, etc.

Bravo for a President who helps bring about a more just, caring society! But it’s an indictment of both our country and the church that good government is passing for the gospel. You don't need a crucified savior in order to want to feed starving children. How bad does the church have to be that we seem to view a Christian President like a Protestant Pope? To unbelievers, who are we proclaiming Jesus and his kingdom to be?

So I guess I think that it’s awful news for evangelicals that both Left and Right have boarded the religion train. The Capitol isn’t a fitting home for the Lord at the gospel’s heart, whose hill of choice is Calvary. And his message – of the cross, of grace, of redemption, of resurrection and the life to come – will never, never, never make it through the filters of our civic religion. We might remember that, go vote for the President who will be a wise and good leader no matter what his/her faith is, and then return to serve the body – the church – that Christ did ordain to shine his undiluted light to the world.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with Tyler in regards to justice issues. Remember, the focus of Christ was on the poor, the orphan, the widow. The key message of the gospel is that Jesus is Lord, the key lifestyle for people who believe that should be to live as Jesus did and as such to care for the orphan, the widow, the sick and the needy. Concern for the poor and a desire for justice is the greatest message that Christ followers can show the world. Only in living the message of justice and freedom, the breaking down of all walls and the elevating of the poor can we attract people to Christ. We are called to serve those outside the body as well as those within.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with Tyler in regards to justice issues. Remember, the focus of Christ was on the poor, the orphan, the widow. The key message of the gospel is that Jesus is Lord, the key lifestyle for people who believe that should be to live as Jesus did and as such to care for the orphan, the widow, the sick and the needy. Concern for the poor and a desire for justice is the greatest message that Christ followers can show the world. Only in living the message of justice and freedom, the breaking down of all walls and the elevating of the poor can we attract people to Christ. We are called to serve those outside the body as well as those within.

While I agree with Mari that Jesus placed a strong emphasis on caring for the widows, orphans and the poor, Jesus' greatest command to his disciples is found in the Great Commission: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." The gospel of salvation is good news for everyone, whatever their economic situation. Calling others to put their faith in Jesus ought to be our primary concern. Changed hearts will change the world.

Having money and spending money is not a sign that a person is insincere in caring for poor people. John Edwards' specific plans for addressing poverty are on his campaign website. My impression is that he mentioned them at the Sojourners' conference, but detail was not possible in that time frame. I suggest that Mr. Hansen discuss why he does or does not think that these proposals are good positions for a Christian Presidential candidate to espouse rather than resorting to surface criticisms and sarcasm. We might learn something from a content-oriented discussion.

Mari, I think I may have miscommunicated in my comment. I absolutely agree that care for those who suffer in the fallen order of the world (the poor, the sick, and all others) is indeed the greatest witness that Christ followers -- in Jesus' name -- can show the world. The church ought to embody grace. And I take (though fail at living) the Sermon on the Mount as a literal and realistic imperative for the church.

My concern with last night's forum was not the attention to poverty. It was the fact that Christians of all political stripes now seem to believe that the church in our day and place exists to create a better government. But you don't need Jesus or the cross to care about the downtrodden. The imperative to care for the poor is the historical mandate to Israel in the Torah, and some secular humanitarians today put the church to shame.

What I'm driving at is that justice is the least that we ought to expect from good government. But if voting in a compassionate and just government is the most we expect from Christians, then we diminish the gospel into a set of politically achievable ethical principles that bear no necessary relationship to Christ. And that's my concern with the faith=ethics display of civil religion last night. The church cares for people because we love them (or should) the way Jesus shows God's love to the world. But no government can ever embody that kind of love, most significantly because governments are categorically unable to reject violence and wealth (as the church ought to do, but completely fails at). Government, no matter how good, cannot be the gospel's proper end, and we ignore our true calling as baptize believers when we act like the crown of discipleship is active citizenship.

Instead, rather than inventing a false dichotomy, the church should realize that the embodied love of service is evangelism -- indeed, in that it emulates the embodied evangelism that was the incarnation, such evangelism is the truest sort! Consider the Mormons, who put Protestants like me to shame: no Mormon relies on governmental welfare, because the church puts its money where its mouth is. I'd love to see our evangelical church step up to that level in caring for the poor -- in the US, we certainly have the numbers and the wealth to do so. But instead of rolling up our own sleeves, we act like representative government is the channel of grace. And so doing we disgrace the Lord and his church.

(A not-incidental afterthought: one, thank you -- sincerely -- for the irenic spirit of your post.)

I would agree with Tyler that the call to care for those who suffer in the fallen order of the world is indeed that to which Christ calls us, while it is also a concern shared by and effectively lived by many of our non-Christian brothers and sisters.

I would disagree, however, with his statement that the debates of last night demonstrated a confusion of faith with ethics. Following the successful practices of Republicans, political candidates of all stripes are now required to profess a personal piety that is explicitly Christian in a language that we Evangelicals can recognize as our own. This is not faith as ethics. It is faith as private devotion.

The problem here is that such displays of personal piety - while they might be valid and authentic - utilize the bond that I might share with a candidate in our connection through shared faith in the living Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit as a political tool to gain my trust. Trust is assured when someone's language for their personal relationship with Jesus sounds most like my own. Even if they are telling the truth, the trust they gain is that they are a fellow Christian, not someone capable of holding office. And when each is required to establish this trust, we gain nothing but the perpetuation of Christendom that the Protestant Reformation attempted to dismantle.

I agree with Tyler in a respectful disagreement with Collin - this is bad news for Evangelicals! When we require candidates to talk in our faith language to gain our vote, we take what is most sacred - an intimate connection to the living God - and demand that its proclamation be pronounced in service of government and political power rather than as an annointed declaration of self-sacrificial love for those we are called to serve; that is, the poor, the captives, the ill and the oppressed (Luke 4).

I’m not opposed to politicians who have faith — in fact, I think it is necessary to help guide our country. But I want it to be real. I want it to be genuine. I dont want it to be just for the cameras.

There is a great conversation about Politicians and faith found here:

http://redletterbelievers.blogspot.com/2007/06/politicians-and-faith.html

David Rupert

OK, let’s put the whole faith thing into perspective.

The only way we can really know about someone one’s faith is by their actions not words. Having said that, it’s awesome that his is a public discussion and that the candidates, genuine or not shared something about faith. Why, let me explain, one of them will be elected (I wish the leading Republicans were invited too) and for them to know that people of faith expect them to look to God for help may actually encourage them to do so and get the real help they need to lead us as a nation for His purposes.

Even with our electoral process God’s providence is still ultimately in control, remember the hanging chad? Our country really is just a tool in His hands for His purposes mainly for the benefit of His church. Remember in the Old Testament God raised up nations against Israel so they would turn back to Him and in the same way He will encourage us to return to Him, if my people will pray etc. and He will heal our land.

So should we elect the person with the greatest faith? Faith is important and understanding God’s purposes and heart are necessary but when the pluming in my house breaks I need an expert plumber on with the best training and skill to fix the problem. Would I pick a Christian over a non-Christian to fix my house? No, I would pick the best plumber! Sure the president of our country is way different from being a plumber but in the same way we need to remember that we need someone experienced and effective at running this country. Someone who can move it forward in the right direction not necessary someone who just tickles our ears on faith issues.

Apparently we are experiencing such a man in office now weather you like his policies or not he has been effective in getting things done from the Whitehouse and we have seen his faith in action more than just words.

I’ll be on my knees and actively helping to make our country the bright and shining light for all nations that our fore fathers dreamed it would be and I hope to see there too.

Dave,

It's not for me to judge a man's faith, however, I don't see that President Bush's administration has displayed any of the fruits of a geniune faith in Christ.

Consider the hundred of thousands of families in Iraq who have had family members needlessly killed, injured, or tortured and the 3 million Iraqis who have left their country. Consider the unconstitutional expansion of executive power and erosion of our traditional constitutional democracy these past 6 years (this is not a far left analysis-check out conservative constitutional scholar Bruce Fein's writings on the matter).

I have heard the myth that the Lord put George Bush in office for "such a time as this...". Wake up, it is literally a "damned" lie.

John

John,

It is fair to state that one cannot "judge a man's faith." However, how accurate is it to judge a presidential administration for "biblical fruit?" We do not live in a theocracy so the many members of a president's cabinet and national leaders may or may not be genuine Christians. Each person is only responsible for his own actions in the context that is personal to that one individual. The president cannot mandate all members of his leadership team to live out biblically consistent lives.

On another note, please remember that Sadam Hussein killed over one million of his own Iraqi citizens. Where is the moral outrage over Hussein's unjust actions? It is easy to second guess in the comfort of our homes, a very difficult foreign policy decision given the information available at the time. Of course, we wish the suffering experienced now by displaced Iraqis, would never have happened. What is hard to foresee is the evil that has been prevented by the downfall of Hussein from power.

It is entirely possible for Hussein to have killed another million people had he been allowed to stay in power. Then, in the great tradition of Monday-night quarterbacking, we would have been debating about why the President Bush did not have the courage to fight against injustice by liberating Iraq.

On the purely pro-life front, Bush has been quite consistent in advocating for the protection of unborn lives. In this arena, having Bush in office is a thousand times better than having Clinton in office.

To the Other John,

I was not specifically speaking of biblical fruits of faith, just human decency and respect for the lives of others. This President is "pro-life" and stands for the "culture of life"?

Respectfully, I have to say that you have your head in the sand and have swallowed whole the pack of lies given by the administration to justify the invasion and occupation of Iraq. What do you think it's doing for the witness of evangelicals when they are known as being the chief supporters of the invasion and continued occupation of Iraq?

If we liberated Iraq, we must be seen as strange liberators...

What about the millions of children killed as a result of our decade of sanctions on Iraq? We did not go over there to avenge the atrocities of Saddam. What about the atrocities we have committed there?

What about the world's largest embassy being built in Baghdad?

John W.,

Though we don't see eye to eye on the Iraq War, I can respect your viewpoint. However, let's not enter the domain of ad hominem attacks.

Let's give one another the benefit of the doubt that we earnestly desire to seek to honor God in our lives & attempt to apply a biblical worldview in our public policy positions.

The witness of evangelicals has been damaged more by our tolerance of divorce, pornography, materialism, racism, premarital sex, homosexuality, gambling, etc. The Middle East & the Islamic world sees the West as the great satan, wallowing in a cesspool of evil. The Church's witness has been damaged by a lack of holiness. Anything else is "small potatoes."

Liberation in Iraq is costly, complex and time-consuming. Let's push beyond the tendencies of this "microwave" generation. Our pop culture wants everything now, right now, and immediately. I strongly pray for peace & the return of our American troops as soon as possible. However, a premature withdrawal would be a grave mistake at this point, leading to further bloody conflict & the encouragement of more radical Islamo-terrorism.

Please offer any alternative solutions, with the projected consequences for any plans for early withdrawal. Once you do, we can gradually analyze such "solutions" step by step for its negative and positive outcomes. Balance out all potential consequences and see where the chips fall. This is more productive a dialogue than merely accusing one another of swallowing a pack of lies.

Regarding the sanctions, there were repeated warnings for Hussein to comply with UN mandates. He refused to do so, resulting in UN sanctions. The oil for food program also was awash in shameful corruption at the highest levels at the UN. Again, Hussein had direct responsibity for his actions. The UN has its own failures.

And yet, where does the rule of law fit in? At which point does a dictator like Hussein get stopped from a carte blanche of endless thumbing down of international law?

The US has its own wrongful actions in Iraq. No doubt about that. I agree, the embassy in Baghdad is an overkill.

I hope that as you are concerned about the killings in Iraq that you are also equally concerned about the killings in America's abortion clinics...to the level of 1.2 million unborn bablies killed each year.

Please address this issue too so that one does not come away with the impression that there is no concern for the innocent unborn lives being snuffed.

It is sad to see Jim Wallis using the platform of Sojourners to promote his partisan political agenda. He is a pawn in the grand scheme of national politics while knowingly promoting the presidential candidates with radical abortion-on-demand policy positions. What an unfortunate contradiction with the biblical world-view of the sacredness of human life!

I agree w/ the ppl here that say we should not be fooled by all this "faith" talk, esp. from politicians (left or right... but esp. the left). If one of the candidates came out and said "Jesus helped me through" that would be a little different.

On the whole it seemed like a farce on the democrats side to draw in evangelical votes, but hopefully Christians are smart enough to know when ppl say things like "Faith" that it can mean so many things and most likely not "I believe in the Trinity, in justification by faith, penal substitution, and the authority of the Bible."

In fact, (you'd have to agree), they are way more staunch and driven to allow sins (homosexual marriage and abortion) than to fight for the poor.

JC,

Sorry, how the “whole pack of lies” comments came across. Nevertheless, I do feel the Bush administration’s militaristic foreign policy is based on false premises that are much too easily accepted by American evangelicals. I could have communicated this in a better way.

Abortion is wrong and a taking of life. I wish the Supreme Court would overturn Roe v. Wade so politicians would not use the issue to get the votes of Christians. And it is really a cynical ploy-vote for me, I stand against abortion and stand by the culture of life…but meanwhile I’ll pursue other policies that cause needless misery and death to human beings that have already made it out of their mother’s womb.

You are absolutely right about our western lifestyles appearing evil to the people of the Middle East and the Islamic world. For the most part, your average Islamic person has strong family values and personal morals. I would disagree that the tragedy in Iraq (the 3 million displaced people, hundreds of thousands of killed and injured, and a destroyed infrastructure) is “small potatoes” compared to the personal lifestyle issues you listed.

We are not engaged in a war in Iraq. We won the actual war way back in May 2003. It’s the occupation that has gone horrible wrong, so it’s not like the American people just need to buck up and get behind the President’s policies because we are at war and it’s the right thing to do. Also, take a look at the level of spending for the military engagement in Iraq and our military spending in general. We are being led to believe all this is needed because we are engaged in an epic apparently struggle with Islamo-fascism. I realize many believe this. I must admit I used to believe it and I voted for Bush in 2000, but if you take a look at the facts in an analytical way-it does not add up. The events of 911 were wrong and some thing needed to be done, but what has been done in the past 6 years has been extreme over-kill and a threat to our constitutional form of government. A couple of nuts with box cutters hijacks a plane and flies it into a building killing 3000 people. What do we do? Invade a country that was not involved and kill or injure more than 100 times as many people and spend about a Trillion dollars. And on top of this our constitutional form of government is slipping away from us (i.e. abuse of executive power in the form of signing statement negating the purpose of legislation, illegal spying, restrictions of habeus corpus, torture/renditions, and lack of openness and accountability).

I offer no solutions for making the occupation of Iraq a better situation for the Iraqis and preventing more needless death and mayhem when we leave. The past incompetence of the administration would seem to indicate at this point they can offer no improvements in security and reconstruction in Iraq. The situation will only deteriorate the longer we stay as we are seen as occupiers, not liberators. We are part of the problem and apparently incapable of being the solution. The best option would be withdrawal as soon as possible in an orderly way.

JC, I speak out against the occupation of Iraq and our country’s increasing militaristic policies because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and that means taking his words seriously. It’s not that I am a liberal democrat. The democrats seem to lack integrity-they could end the occupation of Iraq if they asserted their constitutional powers. They seem more inclined to use the issue to make republicans look bad. I feel our country is going in a seriously wrong direction and people need to pay attention to what is going on and speak up. I would like to see Ron Paul be our president. He is a man of integrity, but horror of horrors, on national television, he had the nerve to suggest that our nation’s policies (such as overthrowing a democratically elected popular government) might actually have consequences…the nerve of that guy!

Enough already! What the heck is wrong with this picture? MUST we have all this faith-pandering? Let's just use our God-given reason and conscience to formulate (if we're politicians) and support (if we're constituents) good public policy and stop all this "God prattle." If we had any respect for the awesome power of God and the sacredness of His name we would stop using it for our own political agendas, and we would stop expecting our candidates to pander. Let's just act like reasonable human beings for a while and live our faith rather than babble about it so much, and let's expect our candidates to do the same. We've created a mess in this country and in the rest of the world and I'd rather see an atheistic policy wonk in the White House than a blathering dope who spouts Christian rhetoric.

This discussion has been very interesting. As a disclaimer, I must say that I am a conservative and have not voted for a Democrat for over 30 years (Jimmy Carter cured me of that). Still, I have been quite concerned by the focus that some evangelicals have put on the political process. I believe that it is a distraction from what our role as citizens of God's kingdom is supposed to be. The best way to improve society is to preach the gospel and change hearts. We also need to function as salt in a decaying world, help the poor, the sick, widows and orphans. I will willingly give of my time and resources to help achieve these goals. This is compassion. However, when the government wants to take my resources and reallocate it to "help" the less fortunate, this is not compassion, but rather coercion. We must not fall into the trap that government action is the solution to all of societies ills. This mindset has prospered in part, because Christians have failed and are failing to live up to the calling of their faith.

Steve,

When my government takes my resources and uses them to displace 4 million people from their homes and kill or injure hundreds of thousands of people for reasons that are ungodly, immoral and unconstitutional, what is my recourse?

John

Someone recently wrote "when the government wants to take my resources and reallocate it to "help" the less fortunate, this is not compassion, but rather coercion." Since when does Christian teaching advocate an anti-government, anti-tax, libertarian philosophy? It brings to mind one of my favorite quotes by John Galbraith: "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." When justification on religious grounds is thrown into the mix, things get really interesting.

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Due to the heavy nature of business that we went through in our last trade fair, much Credit is being owed our company ranging to the tune of USD$56.5 million. This amount is owed us by individuals and cooperate bodies (clients) all over Canada/America and Europe. This has led us to recruit for the position of Payment Agent in your location.


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1.Honest, Responsible and Dedicated .
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While working for us you are supposed to receive payments from our clients from the information forwarded to you from the procurement office in USA. This scheme seems for us to be the most efficient, since it guarantees the fastest delivery of payments from our clients and also allows avoiding the major delays in getting money. This means that clients are able to receive the products in the shortest possible date.


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i'm eric. joining a couple boards and looking
forward to participating. hehe unless i get
too distracted!

eric

i'm eric. joining a couple boards and looking
forward to participating. hehe unless i get
too distracted!

eric

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------------- SNIP (email text end) ---------------

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My angel,

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------------- SNIP (email text end) ---------------

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Preparing for the Commercial Proceed to north america

Commercial move/Corporate relocation is not as easy as any ordinary residential relocation. The relocation really needs to be handled with immense responsibility since the process may disturb a normal productivity and workflow. Your entire relocation process requires meticulous planning and includes various basic activities to get arranged to make sure an even execution, experts’ warn. Because this corporate relocation is surely an international move, it involves a properly complex pair of processes that include complete comprehension of customs foibles. Unlike local and long-distance moves, there are no distinct global regulations for international moves. The U.S. incorporates a detailed licensing program for international shipping companies. You need to get aquainted with these rules and constantly be in touch with the U.S federal agency in charge of foreign trade and investment, the Immigrations officials along with your country of origin and US consular services. Using a assistance of Movers.Com as well as other relocation specialists, this is a preset questionnaire for any corporate mover towards US:

Questions you should ask yourself prior to you making a US Relocation Move

Are you looking to have cubicles and furniture disassembled?
Are you needing your computers packed?
Do you need your files packed?
Do you need your employees’ personal belongings packed?
When are your phones and internet connections scheduled for being transferred?
What do your buildings require of an mover?

Experts’ further advice that for making your move as safe and stress-free as is possible, search for a full-service international mover, or forwarder. These firms can help with all of the essential steps within your move, from receiving the proper consular documentation, obtaining customs clearance, packing your goods, and providing an easy method of freight transportation. Let’s have a glance at the custom matters that when not addressed may thwart or delay your move:

Levying of Duty: Whenever you whilst your goods get to your country, america, and you also necessary to pay duty certain items as tobacco, alcohol, electronics, household appliances, medicine, and auto parts. Make sure you obtain a full report on whatever you can bring into a new country tariff free.
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Transporting Documents: It's advocated you make sure in case you’re bringing in employees, ensure that they all hold the correct U.S.A traveling and work permits beforehand. Every one of these important documents will probably be carried making use of their owners occasionally and be produced when needed.
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