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In the United States, many of us (white middle-class) evangelicals criticize Western European culture for "abandoning" its historical Christian roots, while we congratulate ourselves for our "resurgent" interest in Biblical Christianity. We prattle on and on that European cultures have lost their moral bearings due to their secularism, while we demand that Presidential candidates market themselves to us using (focus-group approved) faith-based keywords, and we approve as they engage in photo-ops of themselves "praying" before the cameras (as we forget Jesus' words about public prayer for our own ends). We see ourselves as God's gift to the world, and even put our American flags behind the pulpit where His word is preached, while so much of the Third World yearns for a true spirituality free of American cultural and economic imperialism. We equate our Christianity with lassez-faire capitalism, and use the brutal and atheistic communism of a bygone era as an excuse to spurn government solutions to help "the least of these," knowing full well that for all their flaws, "big government" programs are often very effective in helping those in depserate situations.

Let's imagine for a minute, that Western Europe's skepticism is part of a larger miracle taking place. Perhaps its secularism has been a spiritual growth period of sorts, as Europeans have taken the initiative to make hard choices to do God's will in caring for the poor, preserving the environment and avoiding the temptation to revive its past colonialistic practices under the rubric of "war on terror" or "bringing democracy to the Middle East"--even as many deny God's existence or relevance. Perhaps Western Europe is a dramatic display of common grace, as God uses a skeptical people do do His work. And perhaps that will lead to a Europe that discovers a gospel that is new and pure, while remaining skeptical of so much of the baggage of we American Christians have accumulated in our self-righteous zeal.

Patrick, what's with the fixation on "white middle class" evangelicals, especially when you are commenting on mostly white western Europeans? Is there something inherently wrong with being white? Middle class? Evangelical?

I understand and share to an extent your disillusionment given many of the ills of capitalism. I am more concerned, however, with cultural Marxism and the leftist tendency to stifle free speech in the name of equality of outcomes, not equality of opportunity.

This is not the first instance where you have used being white and middle class in some sort of perjorative sense, although I didn't question you about it then. Just wondering what gives? Especially because I take it you are white.

I added "white middle-class" in parens because I don't think my observation particularly pertains to low-income evangelicals of color. That's all. Don't fixate on it.

So Europe is de-Christianizing, and 'losing' is Christian roots, ... big deal !!! Europe de-Paganized and 'lost' is Pagan roots. Move on already! ... so Europe is being infiltrated by Islam, an obnoxious religion from the Middel East, what do you think Christianity is ?? ... nothing but an obnoxious religion from the Middle East.

As a Brit now resident in the US - I do have problems with US academics telling us what is wrong with Europe.
There is a spiritual dearth sure - Churches are empty - there are problems for sure - but the Muslim element in Europe is tiny and massively over estimated here.

At the same time much of Europe is dong economically very well indeed (much better than here in the US) - compare life in London today with Chicago or New York!

Its a complex mix, that resides in part in long established Churches assuming (wrongly) that they would always maintain the status quo (I belong to one of them)..and balancing the need for change, with peoples desires for tradition and roots.The Churches have got this badly wrong over the years - but its not an all or nothing situation - and not as grim as some seem to imagine...

Responding to Alan, so many churches here in the U.S. have done the opposite: tossing out traditional liturgies for trendy pop-song praise music and PowerPoint projectors, and even abandoning traditional denominations altogether. So many Christians seem to have no longing to explore their traditional roots, but even worse, the new megachurches do not encourage introspection or the value of silence. And I can't help but think that contributes to the nationalistic religion we are seeing so much of.

Patrick I agree - but I think its all about a sense of balance, and also in accepting that Europe and the US have somewhat different relationships with their Church.
The 'trendy' Church really has been painful to watch in the UK - swathes of the CofE congregations have been lost by Priests trying to keep up with the times. At the same time there is a nascent interest in the US Evangelical style of TV driven worship.
IMHO - America is a much more conservative society, and the Protestant ethic is strong here, and reflected in the Churches. In Europe there is more zeitgiest, and I suspect that people expect the Church to always be there for them, and always to remain the same - regardless of what craziness is going on outside.
In short the Church (typically Anglo Catholic in the UK, and Roman Catholic elsewhere are a bedrock, and they will go through cycles of popularity and attendance - but they are always there and people want them to be there.
Here in the US, it's a more involved relationship with the Church, people don't think it will remain regardless, they feel they have to be involved on a serious and regular basis for that to happen.
Apologies if I am not making sense!

Alan, yes, your post does make sense and is thought-provoking. I think it was an anti-establishment streak that originally led baby-boomer American Christians to gravitate away from established denominations and practices. Back in the early 70's, rock music at church was a very novel and controversial thing, but underlying it was the idea that God is too big to be confined to established denominational and cultural traditions. Now, of course, in the same way that rock music is part and parcel of the establishment rather than a challenge to the establishment, rock/pop music at church is so much the norm that many people grow up having never experienced the power of a traditional liturgy.

Your point is interesting about there being less of a sense in Europe of (if I may paraphrase how I read you) the church primarily made up of the people within, rather than being an entity unto itself. We've got quite the smorgasboard here, which is nice because it gives people a choice based on their individual beliefs and temperments, but the dark side of that is that churches sometimes start marketing themselves by appealing to peoples' narcissistic tendencies (i.e. prosperity preaching or the promise of entertainment).

Patrick in his comments on white middle Christians seems to be wallowing in self loathing and guilt. I would guess that he is both White and Middle Class.

One of the best things about the USA is that the majority of citizens are middle class. Some are upper middle class, some are middle middle class, and others are lower middle class. Many of those who are currently poor are on their way to being middle class.

Liberals are strange creatures. They hate poverty, but at the same time despise wealth and the middle class. Shame on you, Patrick. I suggest that you read The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith on what causes wealth.

John

10 years ago I would have agreed with you John, that is why I moved here - but with the economy the way it is now, and distance growing between this countries economic future and the rest of the world - I cannot anymore.

And no John I am not a liberal - and yes John I have read The Wealth of Nations

Best
Alan

Calm down, John. I added "white middle-class" as an afterthought, that's why it's in parentheses. Glad to see that you, like DiverCity, couldn't get past the first ten words of my post. You not only missed the whole point of the post entirely, but read all kinds of bizarre things into it. Like I tell my daughters, think before you yell.

Patrick, I chose not to respond to your initial failure to address my inquiry about your fixation on whites who happen to be middle class. However, your second bite at the apple in your retort to John was equally non-forthcoming. Of course, I know why you said it, as does John. You are a liberal who enjoys the feeling that you're superior to other whites who just don't get it. But you're really just another anti-white racist. And the scary part is that you've imbibed on the strong drink of liberalism so long you probably don't even realize it.

With reference to your intitial response, which, again, I did not respond to because of its self-evident inanity, your reason for singling out white middle class evangelicals, even in a parenthetical phrase, is based on the notion that the naturally magical, pure and victimized evangelicals of color are not bad guys because they don't "criticize Western European culture for 'abandoning' its historical Christian roots, while we (writ, the bad 'ol whites) congratulate ourselves for our 'resurgent' interest in Biblical Christianity." So, what empirical data do you possess that "evangelicals of color" (good grief I hate liberal-speak) don't harbor the same unfair criticisms of Western Europeans that you attribute to us bad 'ol white middle class evangelicals?

DiverCity,what do you think of the possibility that Europe is poised for a spiritual comeback of sorts, especially in the face of the growing Islamist movement there?

Patrick, I will answer your question -- I have no way of knowing, although I suspect growing secularism among non-Muslims will not abate until the return of patriarchy that some scholars believe will occur given the negligible birth rates of more liberal Western Europeans. I will say that I hope so. Now, about my questions....

Aside from the rhetorical question at the end, all I saw were personal attacks against me. I don't think it's appropriate to continue this any further because I've already posted on here several times and I don't think it is fair to CT or the moderator to clutter this blog with off-topic quibbling.

My apologies to anyone who was frustrated that the original topic got sabotaged. I'm leaving this thread with the hope that this silly distraction will leave as well. I hope others will be encouraged to respond to the original posted article, which is really quite interesting.

"White" is a caste system label. It's wrong to be "white" in an egalitarian nation. Don't be "white," anymore, if that's a label that you're applied to yourself in the past.

After all, nobody's ancestors came from Whiteland to be White-Americans, right? A caste label was applied to them when they arrived...or at least somewhat assimilated and had light skin hues.

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Europe's root are profoundly pagan, not Christian. Thankfully. The demise of christianity in Europe has been coming for some time. As christianity does not come from the landscape of Europe, but rather from some desert cult, it is hardly surprising that it is fading into the background once more.

prophet Charles what stupid statement Europe has been christian for the greater part of 1000 years stating it has pagan roots is like saying you are still a child because at one time you were a child, How long have you been a an adult?

my comment was meant for Jason Oliver Sorry prophet charles

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