What annoys me about this type of story is that *all* of us feel out of place at some point in our lives, if not most of the time. When I was a child, it was because I was one of the few in my school who came from a middle-class background, or because I was an only child, or, later on, because my parents were divorced. It's more of the same as an adult. We all feel uncomfortable at times when we don't fit in. That's normal, not something to be appeased through special camps or groups.

Stan Guthrie, I must protest at your anathamazation of the righteous St. Nicholas. We actually have both Santa Claus and Isaac Newton.

It's interesting that the atheists do NOT preach that there is NO God. Rather they would sear their own conscience into thinking that it's OK to disbelieve (ignore) God. Deep within, then, they realize that there is indeed God--but they don't like this fact. How about we Christians? We should not have God only in our mouth or our so-called "faith". Rather, God has to be in every aspect of our daily living. We have to live and move in God. That will be a big shame to atheists and glory to God.

Ah, the old "atheists really deep down believe in God" meme. That's a popular one. I guess it stems from your inability to imagine that someone could not believe in God. Well, guess what-- there are plenty of atheists who think Christians deep down are atheists! They see Christians crying after the death of a family member and think, hmmm. Shouldn't they be rejoicing? After all, they believe their loved one is now in the eternal bliss of heaven. They must not believe after all!

I'm not one of those atheists who think that, but I make my point to illustrate that many atheists are in fact so strong in their unbelief that they cannot fathom how someone could possibly believe in God.

I actually think it would be awesome if there were a god. Unfortunately, there is no valid evidence for this. Yes, I've heard all the "best" arguments.

Of course atheists don't preach that there is no god. Preaching is what religion does. Rather, atheists offer evidence and arguments against the existence of God. It's especially important that children not be preached to. They need to develop critical thinking skills.

John,

It certainly depends on the atheist - I understand that it's not a monolithic community (or even a community).

Jesus himself cried at death, and the great consummation for which Christians hope does not happen at death, but at the resurrection. It is right for us to grieve, but not as those who have no hope. Atheists quite often put up the shallowest form of Christianity possible and project it onto all Christians, and then smugly ridicule them. I'm glad to hear you don't intend to do this.

As far as the existence of God - the best evidence I see is the intentionality of life and experience - for which materialism provides no satisfying answer and which seeing the universe as an artifact of mind provides amazing coherence. But for Christians, the strongest evidence we have is Jesus himself. We cannot but believe, faced with his death and resurrection.

Preaching is what atheists do - at least many of the louder ones. Have you ever been to pz myers blog? Have you ever read Dennent or Dawkins? These guys are more evangelistic than the most ardent evangelical. And they make wild assertions about religion, based on anecdotal and sensational stories, rather than scientific studies.

My two children attended Camp Quest last year, and are returning this year. During each summer, my kids attend lots of different weekly camps, but the camp they look forward to all year is Camp Quest. During the school year, when kids at school ask them, "what religion are you?", they either try to change the subject, or say, "it's not something I talk about." They know that if they reveal they don't attend church or reveal they have been raised to be non-theistic, that they could lose friends, be bullied, stop being invited to playdates, etc (since it's happened before). And, since we don't want to raise our children as hypocrites, we aren't going to just join a church "to fit in". Because of the lack of tolerance shown to them by their peer group, as well as adults, thankfully, they are fortunately extremely tolerant of others.

Camp Quest, for its brief one week, gives my kids a chance to uncork and really explore their thoughts with other kids who have been raised similarly as them. My kids tell me it's like a weight is taken off their shoulders for that one week period, knowing that the weight will settle back down for the next 51 weeks. My kids need peers, and Camp Quest gives them that.

As for atheists that preach: I read PZ Myers' Pharyngula blog regularly, and have read the books by Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, and Hitchens. I disagree that these writers are preaching, let alone evangelistic. What they provide for me is awareness that my family is not alone in raising our children without religion, and they provide guidance and information when we encounter people who attempt to witness to us.

Religion is constantly being pushed on us, atheists. We are finally pushing back.

As an Atheist, I see religious doctrine everywhere, Lynn is right. We're finally pushing back. Eventually, it'll be obvious that we won't go silently into the night. Till then...keep pushing.

Why do atheists read "Christianity Today"? Why would they make any comments? I would like to know.

"Why do atheists read "Christianity Today"? Why would they make any comments? I would like to know."

Billy...I can't speak for everyone but I suspect most of us came here via links from other (heathen) sites. That's how I got here. I personally haven't read Chistianity Today for a couple decades and probably won't again for a couple more. I doubt many atheists regularly visit here, but this subject happens to be about us so we came to see what ya'll think.

Pssst...a little secret. There are a few of us that do read this regularly just to keep an eye on you...

Ok, so some atheist children have dumb/wrong ideas even though they're at camp - maybe they even learned them there.

Can Stan prove that no Christian children have, or learn, dumb/wrong things at camp?

I would be interested to know.

Billy - like Ken said, when Christian sites write about atheists, atheists, can easily find out and come by and see what's being said about them.

Of course Christians can do that with atheist sites also. Although in practice I find most Christians go to atheist sites to try to convert atheists rather than to correct misconceptions about themselves.

And when atheists and Christians go to each others' sites, what they post there, and how they say it, becomes part of what creates Christian perceptions of atheists and vice-versa.

So, if you do that, be careful what you say and how you say it, because you are influencing some peoples' opinions about all atheists or all Christians - just as articles like this are.

Sorry, I (Helen) posted the above comment, not Billy. My apologies - not sure how that happened.

Wirawan,

Atheists avoid preaching because we want to convince others using reason, not emotionally charged rhetoric like so many religions depend upon. We avoid claiming with absolute certainty that there are no gods because most of us want to avoid the hubris of faith, not replicate it. We know that we cannot establish with absolute certainty that no gods exist. We can only demonstrate that the evidence indicates that gods are almost certainly man-made.

I'm glad to hear about this camp. I've had many Christians react with anger and threats of violence when they've discovered I'm a nonbeliever, and I know kids are worse than the adults. Hopefully this will help give atheist kids the strength they're going to need to live honestly in this hate-filled society.

At the risk of boring everyone with a cliche: can't we all just love each other?

One of the great American experiments is the Unitarian Universalist church. There, Christians like me can attend services with agnostics, atheists, followers of the Jewish religion, pagans, Buddhists, and so on. Individuals who wish to do so sometimes share a statement of faith or belief (though of course this is not required)and do you know what? There are no cleavages between the atheists and Christians, etc., because the most important principle is listening to and learning from those with whom you have some dsagreements. As a church, sure, it isn't perfect, and because of its emphasis on social justice some who do not share those values may feel left out, but everyone is welcome and many come to be transformed. For all of you atheists who miss certain things about church--the community, the aesthetics and music, the social outreach and community projects, the character lessons for yourself and/or your children--but would like to continue to hold your beliefs (or non-beliefs) and have them respected, check out a Unitarian Universalist church near you. Likewise for any Christians who feel their faith is strengthened by worshipping with a congregation with a wide diversity of viewpoints and temperments.

Hitchens not "preaching"? I guess I must have misread his book. Yes, it's all about reason and gentle criticisms of religion. Yes, that's what it is. It's also ironic that the kids in "Jesus Camp" are supposedly innocent victims of fundementalism run amok but the kids at "Camp Quest" are finding refuge and nurture from a mean world filled with people who are stupid enough to believe in God

Clyde, I am glad that you love your church and want to share it with others. I truly hope that it brings you closer to God.

However, your description only reinforces my picture of the Universalist Unitarian church as an organization that gives spiritually-inclined agnostics a great excuse to hold a potluck.

What the film "Jesus Camp" shows about Christian indoctrination of children is that it has a strong component of political partisanship. So far as I have heard, the Camp Quest experience is not like that.

At Jesus Camp, the children appear to worship a cardboard cutout image of George W. Bush. I do not know of any camp at which children are encouraged to stick pins into an image of Mr. Bush or to chant mystical imprecations against him to reflect the vocalizations of devotion at Jesus Camp.

If I had children of camping age I think I would prefer them to be at Camp Quest than at Jesus Camp, regardless of their convictions on religious questions. At Jesus Camp I expect there would be pressure on them to adopt religious positions espoused by the adults controlling them. Does Camp Quest proselytize for atheism? I didn't think so.

Oops, I erred above. Sorry. I used the word "Christian" with reference to "Jesus Camp." It is absurd that fundamentalists call themselves "Christian" rather than "fundamentalist." Fundamentalism is just a minor part of Protestantism, and Protestantism is a minority segment of Christianity. The fundies are not honest when they try to hide behind the word "Christian" when they are in fact just a fringe of a minority. Fundamentalism is an embarrassment to Christianity.

Just so everyone knows: Christopher Hitchens has attacked opponents of the invasion of Iraq with the same kind of disparagement that he uses to attack people of faith. He has also written a book full of personal attacks of Mother Theresa. In short, his writing appears to be more motivated by an egoistic desire to be contrarian and controversial than by a desire to contribute to civilised and rational discourse. Unfortunately, he's making lots of money and getting lots of much-craved attention doing it.

To anyone who felt insulted by Hitchens' book, respond to it as you would respond to a mentally ill man on the street shouting unreasonable insults at you: forgive him, acknowledge that God loves him, and give him not another thought.

Children are naturally socialized to the standards and values of the community in which they live, and like it or not, it is the adults that create and impose those standards and values. As noted in the post from Wonders above, children are raised atheist just as they are raised Christian. Christian children are sent to camps that reinforce the standards and values of their parents or care takers, and Atheist children are sent to camps that reinforce their parents' or caretakers' beliefs.

It is patently dishonest for either side to claim otherwise because to do so is to represent yourself as having purposefully sent your child to a camp that practices or promotes standards and values in direct opposition to your own.

For children, there is no difference between the imposition of belief or non-belief. In order for there to be a difference, the imposer would have to purposefully introduce viewpoints in opposition to their own standards and values. In other words, Christians would have to purposefully introduce non-belief without assigning negative value or judgment, and atheists would have to expose their children to the Christian culture without assigning negative value or judgment. How many of us can honestly say that we do this and do it successfully?

Summer camp, by its very nature, is a place where kids can get together, have fun, and just be themselves. Let us also be honest with ourselves and with each other, though, and admit that summer camps are also learning institutions, whether they teach how to ride a horse, how to use a computer, how to pray, or how to explain the non-existence of God. The lessons may differ, but the intent does not.

Billy Reed asked above why atheists are reading Christianity Today. I usually don't read this site. I came here from this post on Internet Infidels:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=212717

I'd like to agree with Diane Fitzsimmons. She says "We all feel uncomfortable at times when we don't fit in. That's normal, not something to be appeased through special camps or groups."

Exactly! I agree that there should not be any sort of "Christian" camps that appease the Christian child's difficulty fitting in. All camps should invite people from many different walks of life, and allow people to share their beliefs and challenge their faith.

I like that there is a place where children can learn that it is OK not to believe in God. There's more than enough of "believe in God or He will beat you up!" going on as it is.

Stan Guthrie: You might want to look a little closer at Isaac Newton's theological beliefs before you claim ownership of him...

Wow! I'm a bit supprised at all the atheists that have responded. I wouldn't think that a nonbeliever would read this site. Perhaps you read to argue or maybe you are curious. Or could it be that perhaps you doubt your non belief. What ever the reason, I say welcome, I appreciate your input.

Reading about Camp Quest makes me wish I were 10 or 12 again. I had lots of fun at church camp when I was around that age, even though most of the other kids were jerks. I just hung out with the few nice ones, and enjoyed the outdoor activities, which made it all worthwhile. All the religious indoctrination was "meh", even though I was a believer at the time. I think learning about the principle of parsimony, the scientific method, and Newtonian physics (and why Newton was barking up the wrong tree with his alchemy and, yes, religion) would be far more engaging to a youth with that famed youthful curiosity about how the world works. Learning how to use principles of logic and evidence to find an answer, and how to spot logical fallacies, would be far more interesting and engaging and fulfilling than praying to God for an answer. Logic and the scientific method are torches that light up the path to discovery, in ways that faith can't hold a candle to. For a budding youthful discoverer, that can make all the difference in the world. Why should a child waste another week of summer believing, when they can be out discovering instead?

"Learning how to use principles of logic and evidence to find an answer, and how to spot logical fallacies, would be far more interesting and engaging and fulfilling than praying to God for an answer"

I see no reason (pun unintended) why there can't be both. Things don't need to be so black and white.

Why is the author of this article picking on children? I don't care what religion or worldview a child is raised in, taking apart a child's musings is seriously pathetic.

Why do we atheists make comments at Christianity Today? Hmmmmm. Allow me to answer by asking a few questions. Why do some Christians think atheists have no morals? Why do believers think their particular religious expression is pretty much the only valid one? Why are Christians in particular so afraid of atheists? How can atheists let theists know that we're your neighbors, acquaintances, colleagues -- perhaps even fellow church members? So we come and make comments.

This society extracts a deep pound of flesh from those who threaten its assumptions. Especially if the freethinkers openly espouse mysterious, suspiciously unpredictable (to theists) thought. If only we would share our Atheist Agenda, maybe that would help clear things up so theists could properly categorize and dismiss the lot of us. Except there is no Atheist Agenda apart from wanting not to be threatened, coerced, reviled or feared merely because we find no reason to believe in myths most others accept without question.

My fundamentalist Christian upbringing taught me not to question. My secular schooling taught me there is more to life than remaining ignorant. My adult searching for truth has brought me to a delightful place of freedom from religiously motivated fear, wonder at the myriad things to be learned and enjoyed and the understanding that I am accountable for my actions. Not out of fear of eternal damnation but because what I do matters. To paraphrase a Christian song, There are no hands on earth but ours.

That's why Camp Quest is such a wonderful thing. A place for kids to relax and learn and explore without worrying about the Invisible Heavy Fist of Doom waiting to fall on them. Neither from heaven nor from pulpit.

Why does this guy want to parse what young children say? Lots of kids, not just atheists, don't have Santa. And lots of atheist kids do have Santa. Does the child who goes to VBS completely understand the story of Cain and Abel? So these two children don't represent any one group.

Finally I don't understand this line: "I don't think Christians have a lot to worry about." Were you worried about this 1 small camp among the thousands of Christian ones? Were you worried about the tiny number of youth who attend this camp every year? What exactly were you worried about before picking on little kids? Didn't Jesus say "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God"? Should we be ridiculing these young children and their families? Where is the Christian example of love?

Frankly I'm surprised that Christianity Today would think this article was appropriate. You should be ashamed for picking on little kids!

Either/or, I kinda wish the article woulda reminded everyone to pray for these kids and their parents.

I must admit, I am far more concerned over the upcoming ant-Christian "The Golden Compass" children's film, but am confident is working on more than a few articles to prepare readers.

Come to the Unitarian Universalist church, where the atheist can break bread with the Christian and we are above and beyond these silly little squabbles. Ah, that the rest of society could just relax and be more like the UU church.

This post reminded me of something I've thought about for years and I posted about it on my blog

Laughing at people

This sounds like a wonderful camp. Why should atheist children get left out? I am an atheist now, but when I was a teen, I went to Bible camp. They used scare tactics to get young, impressionable people to proclaim belief in god, without offering other perspectives, or telling us the more disturbing stories, or asking for debate or questions.

Meanwhile, while Allison may be too young to realize that brothers do occasionally kill each other, I bet her Christian counterparts are being shielded from many of the stories. For instance, is it human nature to sacrifice your daughter, or sleep with your father, or curse your son for seeing you naked?

Stan stoops to debate theology with 9-year-olds. Ooooookay....

Anyway, as others here have said, atheists are your friends, neighbors, co-workers, doctors, firefighters, soldiers, and the medical researchers who just may save your life, or the life of your child. We love you, because you are our family, our parents, our schoolteachers, our police-officers, our community leaders, our scoutmasters and our friends.

We just have different beliefs. And sadly we live in a world where our supernatural beliefs which divide us have been taking far too much precidence over our moral, civic and patriotic ideals that unite us.

As posters note above, kids get beat up and ostricized because they're in a minority belief.

If I were a Christian, I'd be more worried about the harm that brings to the name of Christianity than any camp.

Oh the things kids say!

The interviewer merely revealed the naïvete of kids in general, nothing significant about the camp itself. That's no basis for concluding that Christians don't "have a lot to worry about". The point of the camp is not even about Christianity but religious faith itself.

Resist confusion.

The Boy Scouts will not allow children to be members unless they profess a belief in God. So kids now can go to atheist camp instead.

Good job, Boy Scouts!

It sounds to me like many of the characteristics ascribed to "Christians" on this post would be more accurately ascribed to "fundamentalist Christians." There are plenty of summer camps run by Christian denominations that do not teach divisiveness or use scare tactics, but build Children up in a positive way. It's a pity that some churches and denominations spoil the fun for the rest of us. Perhaps thinking evangelicals should try to make more of a distinction in the public eye between fundamentalism and responsible Christian interaction with the rest of the world.

Hi Patrick.

I've enjoyed reading your comments on this and other posts.

Yes, the more extreme voices are generally the ones who get noticed and commented on, sad to say. I'm going to say that cuts us in the atheist "denomination" as well.

When we allow others to speak for us, and they speak the loudest, the quiter, calmer voices demure.

Some particularly loud speakers have made it such that it is now considered impolite to voice opinions on various matters. I refuse to discuss politics with my stepfather because he thinks a flamethrower is a good model of discourse.

And so moderate voices get silenced by the bullys. But only if we allow it.

For the record, I wrote about attending a Bible camp, and how they used extreme measures. Patrick, this was not a fundamentalist camp. They were pretty relaxed, in fact, but that didn't stop them from the Thursday night "You are all going to Hell, HELL, HELL" speech Thursday night.

I think this is a parenting issue at its core. Want to raise your kid in the church until they're old enough to make their own choice? Then do it. Want to raise your kid not in church until they're old enough to make their own choice? Then do it. Let the parents raise their kids and stop criticizing each other. Its a hard job to raise a decent child. We could all use a little help.

Forget atheists, I'm more curious what all these UU people are doing commenting on Christianity Today...

Jennifer, I guess that depends on how we define fundamentalist (and for that matter relaxed). I know there is a specific stream of theology called Fundamentalism (capital-F), but the way the word is used now can encompass many different Christian churches or theologies that emphasize dividing the world into believers and non-believers among other things. So in other words, I have no problem saying there are lots of fundamentalists in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod even though their theology is not big-F Fundamentalism. (Sort of like calling Bach a composer of classical music but not Classical music.

With that in mind, I would say a camp that teaches impressionable children that "You are all going to Hell, HELL, HELL" is fundamentalist regardless of its denomination.

I don't get on the "net" much so it has been a while since my first post. I am perplexed by a lot of the comments here. I have never slugged an atheist or known of anyone who has. Oh yes I know that somewhere in this world it has happened and will again. However it is not what the Christians I know would do. I go to an average church, if there is such a thing. I work an average job, if there is such a thing. I run into average people. Some people at my church are pretty smart, some are not. Some of the people I have worked with in the past were pretty smart too, some were not. I have met some really nice atheists and some real jerk atheists. Kinda like Christians I know. I like to study people and listen to them. You get to know people best when you listen to them and they don't know you are listening. Most atheists I have known are not happy people. They say they are if you ask them, but getting to know them reveals a different story. Most, but not all, of the Christians I know are pretty content with their lives. Some are even content when life is not going their way. I don't know any atheists like that. I really see that belief in God makes a difference if people. Maybe there really is a God and we do better when we understand that. What should Christians do about atheists they meet? Love them. They are still creatures made in God's image. Even if they don't believe in God. In time they might come around.

I agree with Billy Reed.

In my opinion, humans are humans regardless of their world view.

Some will be perceived as good, bad and (at times) utterly ambiguous...some polite, friendly, some rude and uncivil...and even apathetic depending upon mood, time and circumstance.

We atheists should understand that given time and a bit of loving understanding the believers in unproven invisible beings beyond space and time will realize that such notions are as purely imaginary as leprechauns and don't really exist.

They might even one day come around to rational thought if we continue to be kind while pushing back.

Take care, everyone, and have a safe and happy Independence Day celebrating our secular freedoms won from the hands of religious oppression!

Steve, I see you still haven't come around :)

Happy July 4th!

In general, I just thought the article was poorly written and didn't say much anyway. Curiously, what good magazine allows a guy to post seven meager paragraphs and call it an "article"?

As a former Christian who attended Christian summer camps as a boy, now with a small boy of my own and an atheist, I can't wait for the time when he can attend a place similar to Camp Quest. Even the most demure Christian camps still preach Jesus onto the little campers when all they really want to do is make crafts and flirt with the opposite sex.

Shame on them.

Billy Reed wrote:Most atheists I have known are not happy people. They say they are if you ask them, but getting to know them reveals a different story.

Billy, I'm Siamang. Pleased to meet you.

Please get to know me. I'm perfectly content in my life. I have a joyously happy marriage with a fantastic woman and a bright, charming and deeply perceptive young child. My career has me in the dream job of my life. I spend my free time pursuing the arts and the sciences, enjoying culture all over the world.

The things that I am not content about are the state of the world we find ourselves in. I think it's morally obscene what has been done to the world in the name of our national motto: "I'm-right-everyone-else-is-wrong".

You say "Some are even content when life is not going their way." I don't think people should be content when others are suffering needlessly. I know that's not what you meant, but I see an awful lot of people who seem content with things as they are in the world. Unfortunately, for me, when I was a believer, I thought that God made things right that I couldn't see. And that caused me to feel content that He was taking care of things that I didn't have to.

So for me, speaking for myself only, this was a positive step for me.

As a servant in the Christina church for twenty-five years, I had a revolution in faith and am no longer a believer. It has been liberating to leave behind the close minded, "We're right and you don't even know how wrong you are" mindset. I am at a place, like Siamang, that brings contentment. As a believer, I always looked to God for contentment, now it comes from a real place within me, and is not artificially imposed. Camp Quest sounds like a great place for children to have fun and be free to be themselves.

Here's a radical idea: how about encouraging more camps that are not based on religious belief or lack thereof? The children of Christians, Jews, and agnostics can all have fun together and make friends, go hiking, do crafts, and have late night campfire talks. And if metaphysical topics come up, the kids can have their discussions and work out their differences themselves without grown-ups setting the agenda.

Love that idea, Patrick! Wouldn't it be refreshing?

Actually, we don't have Issac Newton. Although a theist, he attacked the Trinity in personal writings he kept secret during his life out of fear of the repercussions that would have occurred if his views had become known.

I think Jennifer on another blog summed it up well:

"Hey Stan, you are right. Children don’t have as much life experience as us, let’s laugh at them. HAHAHAHA stupid children! By the way, can I quiz your children? Its probably not so I can mock them online."

http://conversationattheedge.com/2007/07/03/laughing-at-people/

I have a problem with the label "christian" as it has really come to mean something more negative than positive hence the religious tag that "all wars are fought in the name of it" etc. If more of us were Christ followers or disciples would there still be this debate? If we lived and loved as He taught we wouldn't be so angry and vindictive with those who don't think as we do. He loved those who didn't agree with him and spoke gently and respectfully. I understand the only ones he took on in anger were the "religious establishment" of his day and that was because of their narrow thinking and biased views of other people and God... is this sounding familiar? He came to show us how to live and love by example right up to the end when hanging on the cross he was still loving and respectful...

"Unfortunately, there is no valid evidence for this."

What do you mean there is no valid evidence for this. Of course, there is. I'll give you some of my favorite pieces of evidence for the existence of God:

chocolate
roses
cats
pears
the Himalayan Mountains
St. Theresa of Calcutta
the Taj Mahal
the Cathedral at Chartres
Albert Einstein
Amadeus Mozart

There you have ten. I could go on but you get the idea. If you think this evidence is better explained by some other theory than God, that is your business. But to simply say there is NO evidence for the existence of God is intellectually dishonest.

I think it's a pretty low blow the author mocked a NINE year old girl and printed her name. Big man.

Camp Quest seems pretty cool. Kids learn about science, reasoning, nature, and how to base a decisions on evidence instead of faith. I don't see what all the fuss is about. The camp isn't peaching there's no God, and it's not like they threaten you with eternal torment if you disagree with them. They let kids know it's okay to doubt the existance of the being there's no evidence for (whether it be Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, Zeus, Thor, Xenu, or Buddha), and I don't see anything wrong with that.

People who define themselves by what they are not or what they are against leave me with a feeling of sadness. Its like their train left the station and they remain standing on the wrong platform - still waiting. Edwin Kagin, as legal director of American Atheists and founder of Camp Quest has obviously given considerable thought and energy not just to his beliefs, but in turning his beliefs into action. What does he hold in his hands at the end of the day? He obviously believes in his heart that the actual influence of Christians in society, beyond the media hype in our polarised society, is beyond what is reasonable for any social grouping. He has a trained legal mind - I take it as read that he discriminates between those who use any cause or movement for self-promotion and those who are genuine practiioners. Has he built his camps in reaction to the former ignoring the latter?

Hello all.. ANOTHER UU here, I got here by Googling the atheist camp I read about in the newspaper so there's the answer to why so many UU's are here.

Let me add one comment to the "fundies" here... We're all born atheist. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation but one thing is for certain, we choose our religion!

Camp Quest sounds awsome. When I was a kid, my Mum sent me to a protestant summer camp and while I did enjoy it for the most part, I did have some pretty negative experiences there because it was a religious camp. For example, one day we were told to go find a place to sit and read the bible. I found a shady place beneath a tree. I was going to read but I got distracted by the leaves and the sunlight and I started daydreaming instead. The camp director took it upon herself to chastize me in front of the entire camp for my failure to read the bible. Another time, a preacher came in and made a rather inarticulate speal about how God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. After the talk they said that if anyone had questions they should stay behind and someone would come speak with us. I had questions, so I stayed. A counselor took me aside and I asked why God did not like homosexuals. While I cannot recall the entire conversation, I do recall that no matter what question I asked, each one was unhelpfully replied to with the counselor just pointing at the same two or three bits of scripture over and over again, none of which addressed the points I was trying to make. I got fed up eventually, pretended to agree and went to bed.
So that was my experience. Don't question, don't be different. It would have been awsome to go to a camp where I could believe biblical answers if I wanted to, but wouldn't get in trouble if I thought they were wrong. That seems to me to be the fundamental difference between religious and secular camps. In the former, you have to fit in. In the latter, you can just be yourself whatever that may be.
By the way, I eventually did find myself working at a secular camp and it was amazing. We had Christians and pagans and mystics and bhuddists and athiests all getting along quite nicely and able to share their beliefs. It was awsome.

“Why do atheists read "Christianity Today"? Why would they make any comments?"

Christianity Today used to be a politically moderate information source with generally well written articles. Over the last couple of years it seems to have jumped to the political right, which unfortunately in my opinion, has adversely affected the magazine's quality and appeal. It used to have a weekly listing of links leading to religiously themed stories that was a great source of information. I'd like to see Christianity Today bring it back.

What an ignorant and patronizing article this is. If you really study the "God" of the Bible in great detail, you will see that he is completely contradictory. The greatest argument against the "God" of the Bible is the Bible itself. Read it!!

Did you know that the "God" of the Bible, like Hitler, is a genocidal racist? If you don't believe me, read the book of Joshua...

There are many more vile and offensive things in the Bible. Do a little exploring and discover them for yourself...

There are wide varieties of troubled teens summer programs suggested for their campers to improve their skills. Each program differs in cost, quality and time. Many websites and counselors help the parents of troubled teenagers to find out the most effective summer camp program for their kids and teens.
http://www.restoreteens.com/Search/0/Summer-Programs/index.html

I think it's funny when Athiests talk about morality. If you don't believe in God, then what is your "absolute truth" because the absolute truth IS God.

Yes, even Christians will sometimes argue about the attributes of God, still, if Athiests don't believe God exists, how can they talk about moral truth at all?

What basis does an Athiest have even to begin a discussion about moral truth? If you don't believe in God, heaven and hell, then where does your concept of right or wrong come from? You can have many true scientific and behavioral facts at hand. Facts are just facts, without any morality attached.

Yet, actions taken on the basis of those facts can be judged as right or wrong. What moral foundation would an Athiest use to judge whether actions taken were right or wrong?

Any such foundation is your "belief" system.

Morality assumes some kind of standard to decide the rightness (goodness) or wrongness (evil) of an action. So, for the athiest, what is that standard?

Jud,

Morality doesn't come from a god, it comes from common sense. Even the 10 commandments have only a few enforceable rules under the legal system. Don't murder, don't lie(under oath), don't cheat, don't steal. Maybe one or 2 others depending on where you live and that's it. The entire basis of your morality breaks down to the understanding of any 3 year old. Don't hurt people.

My atheist children don't ever even think about gods unless it's brought up somewhere in a book or conversation.

I tell them, some people believe in myths and some don't. But that's ok as long as they treat others with respect.

The SUPER christian children next door, who play with my kids, and sometimes tell them they will go to hell for not believing in God, act worse than my atheist children.

The neighbor children curse obscenities, and the other day said many sexually explicit phrases to my 7 year old daughter that would embarrass a sailor. Where lies their morality? They go to church 3 times a week, carry their bibles outside and talk about Jesus often yet cannot even conduct themselves in a civilized manner.

I have told my children the values of right and wrong and what's expected of them as human beings on this planet, and to practice tolerance and to treat others with respect and to do no harm. And I am often complimented on the behavior of my children by the other parents in the neighborhood who all take their children to school, but yet they act like brutes and bullies and talk with a nasty mouth.

Where are my children lacking morality? And where is the christian morality in comparison?

The reason why atheists read Christianity Today is because they are trying to be open minded. Unlike Christian circles, it is looked well upon to seriously consider the alternative opinion...

These summer programs are very much helpful for troubled teens to improve their skills in a specific area. Even though some of the summer camps are not that much successful in helping struggling teens. Parents should spend some time in choosing a best and reputed summer camp, which helps their teens to learn new life skills.

http://www.troubledteensguide.com/

These summer programs are very much helpful for troubled teens to improve their skills in a specific area. Even though some of the summer camps are not that much successful in helping struggling teens. Parents should spend some time in choosing a best and reputed summer camp, which helps their teens to learn new life skills.

http://www.troubledteensguide.com/

Jud,

There are two types of morality; absolute morality and objective morality.

Absolute morality is the one you were talking about, and it generally boils down to an idea of "universal morality". Put simply, such a system is non-existent (only in name, much like god). If universal morality were true, then it would exist in all societies. In America slavery is considered immoral, however in many other societies this isn't the case.

Objective morality, however, states that morality is both chronologically and geographically dependent. In other words, morality (like god) is a man-made concept.

Cheers =D

Yeah this is pretty sad..
Breaks my heart that people live for nothing

I actually cant understand what they trying to do by doing this? Is that really needed?

What is this? What did they trying to do by this?

Girls camps have well-trained members of the staff who are experienced and are proficient in dealing with the different age groups of girls who attend these camps. There are several recognized girls camps in country which are set up at safe locations, therefore parents need not worry about safety. These camps give your girls the option of choosing activities that she would like to take part in. She can sign up for different activities each day.

http://www.girlschools.net/

Christian camps offer spirituality based educational programs for the growth of kids and youths. Christian camps are designed in such effective manners that fulfill personalized needs and necessities of adolescents. Christian training camps recommend specialized camping, academic programs and spiritual education exclusively planned for the emotional, mental, intellectual, behavioral, social and character growth of unmotivated struggling children. Teens Christian camp programs provide fun filled and life altering experiences to all age groups children.

http://www.teenscamp.net/Teen/Christian-Camps-For-Teens/index.htm

Summer camps help teenagers to learn their own choice of activities with in few weeks of time period. Both boys and girls can take part in these camps and learn new skills or improve their skills with in a friendly environment. There are various types of camps which are well reputed to deal with troubled teens.

http://www.strugglingteen.net/helpoptions.php?place=Strugglin%20Teen%20Summer%20Camps

This is my first time to hear regarding Atheist and with the interaction that are comments brought to this post, it really enlightened me regarding this topic. I'm not an atheist but I respect what are their believes and focus in life.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts it really helps me on learning more deeper regarding atheist.

What a scary story. I feel sorry for people who do not believe in God. Look around at all the beauty in the plants, forests, oceans ect in the world. No one can sell me on the one organism theory. I love God and Jesus Christ. I think the reason that atheists don't believe is that they do not want to be held accountable for any thing they do. If you have a deity in you life you have to be accountable for your actions.

Everyone...E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E believes in things that they cannot see and cannot be "proven". Love, joy, determination, etc. Summer camp for children of atheists (no-God believers) can't be a bad thing, because GOD is at the center of it all.
And believe it....God LOVES atheists. He sent His Son to die for them.
I remember a time when I thought, "These computer things can't be very useful, but they're good for curiosity's sake." We all live lives in motion. Allow the love of Christ to "motion" you toward loving others.

Personally, I think everybody has their own right on what to believe in as long as they're not hurting other people. There are Christians who are good and there are bad ones too...that goes the same with atheists. The important point here is, if parents think a place like this will prevent their kids from being troubled teens, then I think there wouldn't be any problem...any positive teachings can still make any child become someone good, regardless of religion.

Summer camp for children of atheists can't be bad thing,because GOD
is at the center of all.I feel sorry for people who do not believe in God. No one can sell me on the one organism theory.There are Christians who are good and there are bad ones too...that goes the same with atheists. www.parentingteens.com/index/Troubled+Teen

In my opinion, with or without God during boot camps, the important thing is that every kids who will attend the camp will strip away their undesirable attitudes and change to new pleasing attitudes. It will really help them so much to become a better person.

Everyone has the right to their own beliefs. And I think that what they are offering is as good as any programs but the only difference is their concept of the program. I will not fully agree with them but if what they want is for the good of the people around their circle then they are entitled with that. Nonetheless, giving our children the right teaching on how to live life the right way is what matters most. It is better than living their children and teens that are troubled unhealed.

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