Comments

The Time and Newsweek of Christian publications!

I am a pastor in South Africa and do not believe that it is God's will for every christian to be rich. I however do believe that God wants all His people to prosper if prosperity means to use God given resources to meet people's needs (as led/directed by God). If I did not believe that I would not be in the ministry wasting precious time to preach and teach God's word with no expectation that God will prosper me and my efforts in doing what He has called me to do!

I was disappointed in the this article and its writers. Even when journalists have an agenda to advance, gentlemen, it's courteous of them to try and hide it so readers can enjoy the happy delusion that they are receiving information and not opinion. While I don't prescribe to the prosperity gospel as you define it, I wonder how it can be "pernicious" to have millions of people flocking to churches where, in addition to name-it-and-claim-it pseudo-doctrine, they also hear about the saving love of Jesus Christ. In addition, how to do you answer those people who have, in fact, named it and claimed it? While they don't get a mention in your article, they are out there. And they think you're wrong.

Although we can get confused and caught up in semantics; the whole 'prosperity gospel' as I understood it, caused me deep disappointment with God. After my 4 year old neice died from cancer when myself and others had named, claimed and jumped thru every conceivable god-pleasing hoop; I put 'God' on the shelf. I served Him out of respect, but it took me years and much healing (and Larry Crabb's "Inside Out") to trust again. And to realize my error in essentially trying to manipulate the Holy Spirit instead of surrendering while at the same time being confident in the blood and Grace of Jesus. I now understand and KNOW that God is sovereign. He loves to bless His children and heal them. But our physical well-being is secondary to the character and nature of Jesus being formed in us. I can love a God that I do not understand because it is His LOVE that I am secure in. Not just what's in it for me. His ways are higher. I love Him!

The problem is not just in Africa. As the article in CT points out, it started here in the US and it is still with us. My experience is that the health and wealth gospel leads to discontentment and an entitlement attitude rather than contentment and gratitude.
My son-in-law Jon pointed out just this morning that the New Testament teaching of Jesus is simple and clear: Christians will experience suffering, not wealth and health as followers of Christ. The blessing of health and wealth comes with the blessing of glory in the new heaven and new earth in the presence of our Savior. And I don't think we will be paying too much attention to the wealth in glory when gold is using for paving streets.
And the apostle Paul made clear that the love of money is the root of all evil. When will we take that seriously?
I think that it is up to the leaders of the pentecostal movement to condemn this teaching loudly and clearly, over and over and over again.

Instead of condemning the teaching; let's live the truth.
Do you/I risk our lives in love of Jesus to the point of losing our health, wealth, possessions and reputation? Are we willing to?

There is scripture to support God's willingness and desire to bless his children with "things"..not so that we can amass a fortune but so that we are conduits to others. The fact that He also delights in providing miraclulous healings and deliverance is indesputable. There is great value in believing God and his promises and walking in faith...and no benefit whatsoever in living pitifully. But then there is the supreme commandment to love the Lord our God with all of our hearts, mind and soul..giving no room to anything that would diminish our love for him out of a pure heart...and it all comes down to that.

Okay....so the prosperity gospel also conversely implies that Hurricane Katrina was a punishment for thousands of poor who just didn't have enough faith, correct?

And keep the charge of the Lord your God: to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may ??prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn;
The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 (1 Ki 2:3). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.
The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 (3 Jn 2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

I have to agree with Kiley...our phsyical/material prosperity is secondary at BEST to what God wants for His children....Holiness is what He calls us to....not "health wealth and abundance stuff". God is more concerned with building your character then building your checkbook. You can be holy and broke just like the woman who gave one mite (and received Gods approval) Or you can misunderstand the gospel message like the disciples once did and hear Christ say "its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter heaven" and ask "Lord, who can be saved then?" Many mistakenly attach a monetary benefit to being in right standing with God (to which I would refer to 1Tim 6:6-10 which explicitly warns against seeking wealth as a product of Godliness). And while God does indeed prosper His people, it looks very different in the life of each believer, but material wealth is a shallow and very innaccurate barometer. But for those whose God is their belly, and seek Him for "the fishes and loaves" He will sadly say one day..."depart from me, I NEVER knew YOU!" May He bless all who truly seek HIM in Spirit and Truth....rich or poor.

I ask again, do you "prosperity Christians" believe that Hurricane Katrina and 9/11 were punishments from God? It seems that's where your theology leads. Let's have it out. Don't duck this one.

I see some truth in the prosperity message from Scripture, but like many other Christian "lures" it is an incomplete message. I believe Scripture teaches that God does bless us with abundance and fullness - spiritually, emotionally and physically. My concern has more to do with how God's character and love are defined. Is God our "Sugar Daddy" God who will bless us with material things if we have faith, or if we aren't experiencing prosperity, we must have sin in our lives or we are lacking enough faith? Or is it the God of sufficiency, who promises Himelf for eternity. In the end, I think Christians value their earthly comfort far too much. What speaks more of God's goodness? Material blessings or loving our neighbor?

In other words, the idea that flood, fire and terrorism victims are being punished by God is just an "incomplete message?"

The gospel is to be preached for salvation, not prosperity. Christ made his point as he cleared the temple of money changers. We are to come before him in humility, not prosperity. If he gives us prosperity, we are to use it for His purpose and to share it equally with our brothers & sisters, not use it only for ourselves. If we are seen to be loudly prosperous, we are seen to be no different than those who are not saved and therefore why should anyone think we are different from those who are not saved and why should they want to change their lives from their (empty) prosperity. We must act out our faith and that is to love and to give of our gifts and prosperity. If we prosper, it is because he wants us to use it to His purpose. In all, it is His that we are recieving. We are merely caretakers of all he gives. If we do not place our proserity into His purpose, he will take from us as the master took from the steward who did not invest in the work of the Lord. Better to be saved than to be prosperous, for what good is it to store up things in this life if we are called unready to enter His presence, lost to salvation and leave it all behind. He will give us all we need to love and serve Him and we should ask for no more. We do not need to preach a prosperity gospel, it is not biblical.

I suppose all true Christians have taken a vow of poverty, right?

I suppose all have given all they have to the poor, and follow Christ right?

How much money does "prosperity opposed" Christians have in the bank, investments, and the like? I’m sure it’s not a whole lot, right? Jesus says to his followers “…don’t store up for yourselves treasure on earth.” doesn’t he?

I’m sure C.T. executives are living like paupers too, right? Oh wait, can one be a Christian and be an executive? Aren’t executives prosperous? I know, “Christian executives” are an exception to the bible, my mistake - sorry.

I’m sure all Christians go day to day, by faith, trusting God for thier next meal, right? No food in the fridge, no restaurant right around the corner, no coffee shops near by, no quaint delicatessens, and of course, no gigantic grocery superstores so large that you can walk several miles just going shopping up and down the isles, and of course -no money to buy food.

I’m sure all live the perfect example of the historic Christian faith as Jesus Himself and the Apostles taught it, especially where financial management is concerned, right?

I suppose all are just waiting and anxious for a disease to come upon our body so we can praise God for it, right?

I’m sure we’re disappointed that we have a “sound mind” that can think and act somewhat intelligently, and probably desire a stroke to come upon us, right?

I’ll bet Christians should probably pray to get a disease, right?

I’m certain we should thank the Lord daily for our upcoming infirmities and persecutions, right?

I’m sure we ought to live in anticipation of anguish, pain, suffering, sickness, disease, hurt, persecution, and long for it to come upon us to the point that we must pray for it, otherwise we’re outside the will of God and silently promoting a prosperity gospel as seen by the prosperous life we lead, and worse yet, we accept with no conviction.

I’m sure we do all we can to make certain that no prosperity whatsoever reaches into our lives, in order that we can define true Christianity to those around us. After all, anyone who condemns prosperity certainly could not want anything to do with it, and therefore ought to be doing everything they can to avoid it coming upon them. Therefore, we all better move to a 3rd world country, and Christianity Today should probably give away all of their profits immediately, and fire all their executives since you cannot be an executive and a Christian at the same time. After all, Jesus Himself said that a Christian cannot serve 2 masters - can’t serve God and make money.

All true Christians should regularly practice giving away all they have so as to wipe out the problem of world poverty, and they ought to live day by day in faith to trust God for all their provision, understanding fully that God will not see them begging bread if they are His elect.

I’m sure C.T. is a non profit publication made available to the masses at the cost of production, right?

That is awfully nice of C.T. to offer me 58% off their cover price- sounds like a deal that puts them in the red. I especially like all the books they are giving away, er, uh, I mean “selling” for profit. It sure is nice to have these guys around in the 21st century to help me with my Christian faith for 58% off the cover price, and then once getting the publication, telling me that I should not prosper, while they allow articles that bash everyone else who is. (except for themselves.)

My favorite story in the Old Testament, hands down: God offers Solomon anything he wants. Solomon chooses wisdom. God grants him wisdom, then bestows material wealth on him because He knows that Samuel has the wisdom to use it wisely and justly and for His purposes and doesn't value it above the important things in life. The moral of the story? Seek wisdom. Stop chasing after material wealth for its own ends and then if you do happen upon it it won't corrupt you.

Anything that means more to us than the Lord and relationship with Him through Christ is idolatry. Simple not complicated. The question is: Does the Prosperity Gospel jeopardize this primary premise? If your love for God is based on his "Yes" answer to all your prayer requests, I submit to you that you need to re-evaluate your relationship. The thing we must do is love God...not just love Him for what He does for you, but because He, the creator of everything, wants to be in relationship with you. Love Him because of who He is without caveats. Prosperity in terms of possessions, money, health, or whatever becomes secondary then. The test of any relationship is to remain in it after you visually see no "gain" for you. The 'Gain" God gives us involves more than stuff, more than manna, more than money. His gifts are eternal. Is it nice to have all those material things....Duh...Yes! Could I use those things to enhance the kingdom here on earth....Duh..Yes. But would I stop loving God if I didn't have them....Duh...No!
To my angry Brother Savage....continue to wrestle with the apparent contradictions you point out in light of the fact that despite all the fallacies of Christians, God graciously forgives and saves. If that's not your interest in questioning the integrity and motives of Christians and Christianity...wrestle anyway! Christians may appear fractured and unclear but Christ is whole and crystal clear. Check him out! We still have to love you

God is not a vending machine. I don't see much difference between "name & claim" and the positive thinking of New Age book and movie "The Secret." They both seek to manipulate God and/or the Universe by following certain formulas of thought. Hmm. A lot like magic!

...and to build on Rev. Terri's point, if we imperfect sinners get in the habit of trying to manipulate the universe to our advantage using certain formulas of thought, then won't it be a temptation to try to manipulate the universe to our enemies' disadvantage as well?

The OT writings of Deuteronomy 29 and 30 is clearly a scriptural basis of understanding that God blesses those who follow his commands and failure to follow his commands has detrimental consequences. Yes, God still blesses and judges. That does not mean that the Christian life will be free of suffering (Note the Apostle Paul, Christ himself, Isaiah, Jeremiah and many others.) But, consider the alternative life outside of following God's commands; and, especially in light of Jesus' fulfillment of those commands in his sermon on the mount. We have the comfort of the Gospel that helps us in bad times. We have the promise that Jesus goes to prepare a place for us (John 14). These blessings provide us with a prosperity that goes far beyond the normally defined lines of earthly prosperity definitions. In bad times, the Christian has the greatest source of comfort -- that is prosperity unmatched by any other philosophical system of thought.

I was going to submit my opinion regarding the "prosperity debate", but I've decided instead to turn off the computer and spend a few hours with some people in a nursing home. With God's help, I'm trying to learn to opine less and visit more.

I think we should be less concerned about becoming prosperous and more concerned about how to handle the prosperity we already have. Anyone with access to an internet blog (and running water, and electricity, and health care, and grocery stores) is likely more prosperous than a large majority of folks on the planet. Prosperity is relative, isn't it?

Look back on the Proverbs 31 woman--clothed in fine linen. I don't think she sounded destitute. She sounded like a strong, God-fearing, blessed worker. How in the world could she have embraced the poor and lended a hand to the needy had she been poor and needy herself? What good would the strength and knowledge she had been given by God have done had she played it down instead of used it for His glory?

Seeking prosperity for the sake of being prosperous, loving money...those are definitely pitfalls. But being blessed in all you do because you follow God's laws and instruction for your life is quite a different thing. And yes, it carries along with it responsibility and acknowledgement that everything we are and have is God's and is on loan for our blessing and to expand and build up His kingdom.