Comments

Why is the tern "megachurch" being used here instead of "church"? Does the size of the church have something to do with the shootings? It would not seem so. What is in the mind of the author and editors?

In response to Paul Goddard's comment: the definition of "megachurch" usually means a congregation with over 2000 people in attendance. The attendance at New Life Church is around 7500 and Faith Bible Chapel about 5500 according to Hartford Institute of Religion Research http://hirr.hartsem.edu/megachurch/database.html

There is a war going on in this world between the power of good and the power of evil. Although we admit that God, the power of good, will overpower evil, evil is still very evident and we need to remind everyone of this.

Dear Jesus have mercy on the parents of these people lost to families of birth and church. I cry for the pain of mothers and fathers in this bad surprise. How their hearts must ache. I know you collect these tears as precious and understand the communication that is behind them. Thank you for understanding. Here I am far away from this hearache but I feel like I am a loving neighbor. Lord of Hosts who controls angels I ask you to send ministering angels to the parents and relatives of earthly family and church family who are struggling. Help us all to keep our face and words pointed to you. Help us to keep turned to you. Amen.

Satan is alive and well on planet earth. He will do anything to anybody at anytime, no one is safe. The only thing he cannot take from us is our relationship with Jesus Christ. And that we will take with us....to heaven!!
We christians must keep on running the race and bring as many people with us as possiable. Jesus is the alfa and onmega, first and last,our saviour, master, king , redeemer and Lord of Lords. John 33:16 says, in this world you will face tribulation, BUT take heart I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD...........THATS GOOD ENOUGHT FOR ME.
Lin

Yes, Satan is alive and ruling over this earth. As true Christian believers we need to understand this issue and fight this very fact each and every day. Call on our Lord and Savior for strength, comfort and courage. Pray for our brothers and sisters who lost their lives and pray for their families to find comfort in the arms of Jesus. Pray also for those who are lost and don't call on Jesus as their Lord. Pray for those who need Jesus in their lives and don't know how to ask Him in. Pray for those who are afraid to say no to Satan. Pray to Jesus that we can receive His strength in these difficult times.

"And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death". (Revelation 12:11)

May God protect these congregations as they begin a long healing process of grief.

Blessings from Georgia.

I am a month away from being 18. But please dont throw away what i am about to say because of the fact that some people may think that i am too young to be commenting on such an incident.
Personally i think the term megachurch does mean the size of the church. Eg. in australia (where i come from) Hillsong would be our megachurch because it draws in tens of thousands every week. Yes, i do think that the size of the churches were relative to the shootings because they would be where alot of the stuff is happenning in the spiritual realm of our existence if you know what i mean. Because of this the devil's reign over the world is threatened and in this happenning, he is gona try to do everything in his meek power to stop spiritual revival amongst this and the next generation.

Whatever this incident may mean on a spiritual level, it seems to be part of a larger pattern that points to one particular demographic that is especially in trouble in recent years--late adolescent to young adult males (basically 16 to 24 years old). I don't think anyone knows all the reasons for this, but some are readily apparent, and some are probably unexpected. It is not just up to Christians and churches to try to solve the problem--it is not PURELY spiritual--but they and secular psychologists, sociologists and governmental authorities should greatly increase efforts to identify causes and seek to remedy them, TOGETHER.

Nothing that happens in the heavens or in the earth occurs without the will and knowledge of the almighty. We have the assurance that those who have passed on will be oging to a better place God willing and those who have performed these horrible crimes will also face their Creator.
When there are such high levels of concern for Christians in countries where Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism and Islam are predominant, it feels like we may need to take a look closer to home: to examine the hostility of Americans towards other Americans. Do we know how many American Christians are persecuted in America? How many American Christians die in homicides and as a result of violence in America? This information would help us in our outreach and prayer so that they too, as a minority in a democratic country can have our love and support.

All these types of attacks begin with the spiritual war, any "motives" these killers and the other school attackers have is rooted in spiritual issues first and foremost, not secular worldly things. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be in the shoes of the father who lived but lost his daughters. LORD would you comfort David Works now and us him to do great things for your kingdom.

Violence is a big part of this country's national identity and unfortunately this does affect us individually as well. God would you give all your servants the strength to endure the times ahead.

There are now reports from CNN that Matthew Murray's health issues involved schizophrenia, a mental disorder that is treatable by drugs and cognitive behavior therapy.

One of his roomates during his DTS has testified that Murray was hearing voices. Why didn't YWAM refer him to a psychologist? To say this is all due 'spiritual warfare' is premature. Yes, Satan uses schizophrenia to destroy, but this man's problems were diagnosable and treatable.

And when do churches have security guards that are armed and licenced to shoot to kill. Have you all thought to ask the quesiton, what would Jesus do? And what about turning the other cheek?

I really have a problem with the fact that the security guard is being praised for killing the man and that God helped her to do it? Maybe we as Christians need to rethink some of our stances on violence, carrying guns, just war?

My hope is that this incident will cause churches and centres like YWAM to take a hard look at themselves as to how this situation could have been avoided. It wasn't an attack from the outside against Christians at all at the end of the day, but an attack from someone who was christian, but wasn't reached with the help that he needed.

Re: Nanci Hogan

I agree with you that we have to be careful in what we say or do, not to judge everything as a "spiritual" matter without thinking. On the other hand, having worked with YWAM and other organizations for many years, I have seen the power of spiritual forces first-hand and I know from many counselling sessions that especially mental, but also physical, illnesses can often be traced to specific spiritual causes.

On the use of force, I also agree with you that taking a life lightly is not what Jesus taught. On the other hand, God has given us a mandate for law & order and for protecting one another - and we have to take that responsibility seriously, though I struggle with it myself.

And one last comment on the fact that these situations can be avoided... People need to want help to receive help. According to one news website - 9 News, I believe - a psychologist on one of the sites where Murray regularly posted his thoughts offered to counsel and help him, but he refused. I know a few students that had to be sent home from Christian training centers because of mental health issues or specific spiritual struggles and in each case, YWAM or the other organizations involved offered help, contacts and follow-up to ensure that the person received help. However, if someone does not want help, all offers cannot force them to receive it.

Let´s continue praying for the people affected (I know several personally and I know it´s been a really hard time for them) and praying that God would reveal His love in comforting the victims´ families! God bless you!

Chris

First of all, my prayers are with the families. This such a horrible crisis.
I would have to agree with Nancy Hogan on this. YWAM really does need to look at themselves and ask, "why?". This young man was troubled and was not given proper help.

I was involved with YWAM for many years, and I can tell you first hand of the horrendous spiritual abuse and mental abuse that takes place by the hand of those in leadership. I am sure there are some good leaders left somewhere, but in my years of contact with YWAM bases all over the world, I have found rampant abuse.

I hope that YWAM and the Christian community doesn't soley lay the blame on Satan and then go back to business as usual.

The FBI will give a profile shortly I am sure. The black sheep in our society are often truth tellers to a point.The killer was trying to say something but was not heard. I wonder why? Sometimes the christian community gets in over their head with there lack of ability to truly be of a help with some people.They don't have the skill sets and education. Schizoid affective disorders can be dangerous if not on medication.

I think it is wise to hold off on taking cheap shots at YWAM during this hard time. I think some compassion and grace to let this work its course would be a healthy thing to do. YWAM has their share of mistakes and failures as do many other organization, but not all the facts are in and some of you are using this to make a point. Let's honor the lives of the young people who while serving their God were taken from this earth.

Rick Warren said this occurred because "people are stressed out" in our society. Amen to that. Until we can create a kinder, more compassionate society and not the uber-competitive one we have created over the last 30 years the pressure cooker will continue to cause weaker people to crack, with tragic results. Omaha and not Colorado are just a symptom of this same problem.

Sorry I meant "and NOW Colorado"

So yesterday my dad called me to tell me that My small school in Arvada Co. was on the News. So me not haveing a TV. I checked it out online. Sure enough there it was! The News was saying how a lone Gun man came in to the school and asked to be put up for the night.(but this is one of the busiest times at the school because there getting ready to send out their teams all over the globe). A few of the staff explained to the man that things were quit busie and that they couldn't host him for the night and thats when he opened fire! killing 2 of the staff and injuring 2. I did not know the staff that was killed and injured, but I do have a few friends that are on staff. My heart, tears and prayers go out to them and the students and the staff's families. The most bizzare thing was that you hear about these things happening to other churches, or schools but it dosn't have the same effect as when it with people that you know and love. How have we become so desensitized? That the death of another life is just a headline to us? Where have we gone wrong? I'm supprisingly not mad at the killer, I pitty him, I want to know his story. Why?, Why two church groups in a row? What if the YWAM staff would have said "yes" would he have still shot people? Could he have been helped? Dose he have a family? He was shot and Killed too by a "Chuches Armed" security guard at the next church shooting in Colorado Springs! Whats going on in their lives? I want to pray for Him and His family. but the world sees this as bakwards! But the way I see it the Staff although not willingly were ready to die, they had been ceased by the great affection of Christ. they are with the lord, no dought! But what about the Killer? Could he have had a chance to be forgiven too? Although us humans hold grudges, The Mighty King dose not! And He's the Judge that matters most! Lord, we are crupted, we have been lied too by society to rejoice when "Unjust- justice" (the killing of the killer) had been served! Which one was worse? the killing of a Christian or the killing of a lost soul? Help us to feel your broken heart over those who are lost, been lied too or miss lead about who you are. Lord make us more like you. In Christ's name -AMEN

After reading comments posted after mine, I realized another angle on my comment might be helpful. During and since the 10 years I spent as a Christian marriage and family therapist, I perceived serious distortions around "psychology" among many Christians. Where it's most serious is among leaders with the skills and breadth of experience to think deeper.

Far too many actively or passively spurn the insights and methods of the field of psychology. Some believe that only "biblical counseling" (not just a general term but a specifically defined system of counseling for some) is effective. Such viewpoints tend to be part of the "us-them" mentality that almost inevitably emerges from Evangelical/Fundamentalist theology. In this case, it involves an overly simplistic, dangerous split between what is "spiritual" and all the rest--mental/social/emotional, etc. Those who make such a split will resist the idea that Christian lay people and leaders can and should work with specialists of various types who probably do not, in most cases, hold a specific Christian belief system or worldview. I pray they continue to seek God for helpful ways to take advantage of the biblical "common grace" concept that God's truth is shared in various ways by everyone.

It's always amazing to me that when a shooting like this happens, some people partly blame the place and people where it happened, by saying that they should have done something to help this person before it happened. Of course, they wouldn't say they are blaming the place or the people there, but they are, and it is ridiculous. The blame then shifts from the evil person who did an evil thing, to those who somehow should have helped this evil person to not be evil. The shooter was at fault, plain and simple. There are some people who do evil things, period.

The idea that this church should not have had a security guard with a gun who shot to kill is absurd. That is not what Jesus meant by turning the other cheek. Would those who espouse this idea have preferred that there were 50-100 people killed instead? That is exactly what would have happened, if this security guard had not been there.

Everyone please pray for the victims of these events and their families, but please do not forget to pray for the shooters family as well. His parents must be devestated by this. I personally pray that the Lord will comfort them.

Also let's all say thank you to the heroes of this event. Those who stood up and said stop and saved lives doing it. Jeanne Assam and Larry Bourbannais in colorado springs. These two are proof that there are still true Godly heroes left in this world that is decaying at a faster pace everyday.

It's so hard for me to see all about this. JESUS ......please ptotect your people, your beloved one on this earth.

What would Jesus do? It's simple and clear: Luke 3:10-14 Jesus didn't tell the soldiers "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword," He told them to do their job with honor, he didn't tell them to turn the other cheek.

And this isn't from the Old testament, this is from the new testament: "Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, FOR HE DOES NOT BEAR THE SWORD FOR NOTHING. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." (Romans 13:1-7) Wrong is wrong weather it's in a church or outside it. Just because we have police around instead of Roman soldiers everywhere doesn't change the nature of justice and punishment.

I strongly feel that there should be a spiritually qualified person/s at the reception of the church to deal with the variety of needs of the people. If the gunmans need was handled with sincerety and care instead of a strict 'no' according to the rules....etc...cause what is church for? not only for praise and worship but to be sensitive to the needs of others. So, if someone is feeling cold or hungry should we say that he should first praise and worship God or listen to the the word of God etc and then be given help or is it vice versa? If with patience "one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit" was implemented I'm sure this tragedy could have been averted.

Sometimes or most times we are insensitive to the needs of people around us and have our set routines like going to church etc as a priority over stopping to help someone in need whether it be counseling, food, clothing etc eg, the parable of the good samaritan.

I strongly state that this church should trust and have faith that Christ fights our battles for us and there is no need for security with guns. If the church is strong in praise and worship then the Lord Jesus Christ will protect it or send his Angels to do so.

Well it's better to fear God than the devil cos God can kill the soul. God is in control of everything so don't worry just keep renewing your mind according tothe word of God and concentrate on working out your salvation.

Glory to the name of Jesus.

I just wanted to breifly add to my earlier comments. Just let me say that my intention wasn't to blame YWAM or the victims. There are many contributing factors to a tragedy like this.

My condolences to Peter Warren and to the Arvada staff as well as to the families and friends of the victims as well as to the Murray family. I know this has to be a horribly painful time for them all.

My comments earlier were premature given that there hadn't been time to grieve. I think all of us want a forum where we can process a tragedy of this nature and try to get our heads around it. My affiliations with YWAM and New Life church make me care whether or they have done their job to be models of Christian love and compassion well. All parties who were touched or touched Matthew's life will be asking themselves, what could I have done to prevent this tragedy?

I think there will be a time for reflection of all communities impacted by the event to see what lessons to take forward from it in the future. My main concern initially, and it still is, is that we don't blame it all on spiritual warfare but that we also have a better understanding of mental illness and how to treat it. I'm sure YWAM Denver did all it thought proper and right at the time, but maybe they will decide in the future upon reflection, to do things differently. I don't know. I do know that such reflection is only helpful in the long run.

Also, I know this isn't a popular opinion in the States based on all the reports and blogs I've read since the shootings, but I still can't get my head around churches having armed security guards. While I am grateful that Jean Assam was able to stop Murray from killing any more people, I still can't see how violence ends violence. From my experience, violence only begets more violence. It's a moral dilemma for me and I still think we've too glibly accepted as a Christian community that the answer to church attacks is better and more armed church security guards.

In the words of one blogger perhaps we could ask ourselves, "What kind of gun would Jesus carry?"

I note that while some interesting questions have been asked about Christians carrying guns, including the above tongue-in-cheek comment asking, "What kind of gun would Jesus carry?”; no one has raised the serious matter of US gun laws. The National Rifle Association’s philosophy espousing the so-called right of an individual to own and carry a gun has not been brought into question. Why on earth does anyone need to carry an automatic, or indeed semiautomatic handgun or rifle? I think Christians and the general populace in the United States need to seriously rethink their views on gun ownership and take the lead of some other Western democracies that have chosen to limit the type of gun that people can carry, introduce stringent screening of applicants for gun ownership licences, as well as requiring strict locked storage of weapons in special steel gun cabinets in the gun owner’s home. Do people realise that most firearm deaths that occur with weapons owned by private citizens end up being used to kill a member of family, either by suicide or murder. I can remember visiting Colorado from overseas with my family to ski at Snowmass some years ago. We happened to be sitting in a restaurant with Americans who staunchly defended their right to own and carry a gun. My two teenage sons respectfully questioned their point of view as I have always encouraged them to use their brains, think analytically, and not be afraid to ask questions. Of note was the fact, that after dinner, one of the American teenagers just happened to receive a telephone call from friends in PA who informed her that a school friend had just suicided using the family handgun. Uncanny, but a tragic, true story. I myself work in forensic mental health and let me tell you, there is even greater potential for devastation when gun laws are lax and when a floridly psychotic and paranoid individual has access to weapons, particularly automatic weapons.