Comments

This happened to me and my wife. Not for my sins but for being disruptive to the Church. We have moved on and left the Church and our friends still there. I was an Elder.

These are the "man bites dog" examples which make great reading. They are not however biblical church discipline. Church discipline is always, always...always for the goal of restoration. In that light relationships can carry on with the disciplined church member, but those relationships should all be geared toward encouraging this person to deal with their sin, so indeed, that person could attend church. They probably won't and indeed should not feel welcome if they are living in open sin. But to cast these perversions as legitimate church discipline is ridiculous.

I hope churches are turning back to God's Word in every way! including "Church Discipline." Matthew 18:15-17 gives instructions for addressing an unrepentant Christian living in sin…

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

It’s only really sad the not ALL churches are practicing the whole counsel of Scripture. There may be abuses, but none compare to the abuse of picking and choosing whish part/parts of the Bible we will live by and which we won’t.

It's probably a mistake to generalize about these things. In some cases, the problem may well be heavy-handed leadership. In others, the church member may have an axe to grind. Most church conlficts don't have a single "cause." Conflicts are as complex as the people involved in them.

About the only thing you can bank on is that most reporters aren't going to dig deeply enough into a story like this to find out what all the dynamics are that are driving a conflict. And the WSJ has a track record of simplistic explanations when they try to cover church conflict: http://rickwarren.typepad.com/rick_warren/2007/03/on_not_taking_r.html

Jesus says it best in John 16:2&3!

Okay, the way I read this is if I sin, then I run the risk of being excommunicated. In my bible studies I learned that all of us are sinners, including the pastors. Yep, lets excommunicate the entire church! Gee, how nuts is that! Now, this 71 year old lady had the audacity to question the pastor's authority (on what, we don't know). Well, she has been a member of the church for 50 years, taught Sunday school for 10 years, and also (for good measure) tithed 10% of her income. In addition, she is our elder. As children we are taught to respect our elders. At least I was taught that. She may have had an insightful concept or something of the sort and possibly the pastor did not agree. Just an assumption. I don't know the entire situation, but people, I ache for that lady! Handcuffed, kicked out like a convict. Discipline? I surely hope not. And to top it all off: What a blatant misuse of the 911 emergency system.
God bless you.

"And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

Hmm... you mean, like, praying for them and eating with them at their homes and telling them that Jesus loves them? Sorta like Christ did himself?

The way Christians jump to castigate sinners sometimes is really quite discouraging. "Church discipline" is about restoration, as Matt pointed out. Arresting someone for sitting in church is ludicrous and gives the rest of us a bad name. WWJD, indeed....

""And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

Hmm... you mean, like, praying for them and eating with them at their homes and telling them that Jesus loves them? Sorta like Christ did himself?

Joe Chip - seriously? You believe that was Jesus's meaning?

Who are these parishoners to demand access to the financial records? Everyone knows that is a tradition for the pastor and assorted church dignataries to steal from church funds.

Shame on these inquisitive busybodies.

At the end of the discipline process Jesus taught in Matthew 18:15-17, as Joe Chip said, you still love the person. But that is not all; Joe's answer was incomplete. You love the person but you make it clear that by their actions they are choosing to walk out of the practice of the life of the redeemed. Excommunication is a visible and outward sign of an inward reality, to borrow a phrase from baptism.

It is not to be applied for any sin at all, but for persistent refusal to repent of clearly documented sin, following progressive correction and counseling. The primary goal of that progressive process is restoration. Failing that, excommunication's redemptive purpose is to help the person see that they cannot pretend to be actually in fellowship with God while in that state of unrepentance; and thus, to help persuade the person to turn back.

Excommunication also serves a protective function for the church, keeping at bay this kind of stubborn refusal to follow Christ. Of course anything can be abused. The worst is when it is used to cover and protect sin, rather than righteousness, in the church.

It amazes me, as a pastor, that most of these responders are asumming automatically that this woman was mistreated by a mean, stern, legalist, authoritarian pastor, who in there minds was most assuredly wrong.
If that is your understanding, you have no touch with the reality of public ministry. I can assure you that the pastor in question most likely did every thing he could do to make peace with that woman. I have been utterly amazed over the years at the depth of meaness which I have encountered in professing believers. I am solidly on the side of the Pastor. Good for him and may his tribe increase!
As for the other situation of the church in Nashville, these were a group of disgruntled old timers who were angry over the church's move toward contemporary worship. They blamed the pastor for this change. Though the finances had been taken care of through all the proper channels,(finance committee, public accountability) they chose to use this ploy in order to get the pastor. The court has ruled in favor of the pastor/church and against the insurgents.

I think the church as a whole does not discipline enough. I would like to know more details about those who were excommunicated. Were they repeat offenders? How many times were they warned? I agree that the purpose is to always restore but there is a point where cutting them off from fellowship is needed for them to come to their senses.

I wonder what kind of discipline Joel Osteen has in his church? He is so weak in his content that I can't imagine that he takes sin very seriously. I like what Mark Driscoll says: "Harsh words produce soft people. Soft words produce harsh people." Of course there has to be a balance of grace and truth.

There has been no love shown for the 71 y.o. woman, at least for the world to see. She questioned why the bylaws were not being used as the church rules stated. Therefore,she was questioning the pastor, in his opinion, and he did not like that. She has set a good example for many people over the years in teaching and tithing and being a faithful church member in attendance. She entered the church, sat down for the worship service and the pastor called 911 to take her away because she was not allowed in the church anymore. What a shame and sad situation when our church families cannot resolve differences without calling the police. How will the woman ever be restored if she is not allowed to listen to God's word being taught and worship? I am sure calling and having her arrested does not help her restoration process.

In Nashville, the congregation had every right to know how their tithes and offerings were being spent. The pastor disagreed. He still has anomosity toward the church members and wants them out of there. Where is the forgiveness and love? It seems not to be in the church!

It was in the context of discussing church discipline that Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

How that tidbit contributes to the current discussion, I don't know.

If we are being given the full story, it's absurd. Further, I can't imagine any situation of church discipline, however grave, which would justify 911. 911 is for civil matters, not spiritual.