Comments

Nathan, my heart is heavy for the loss of your friend. To answer your query about who decides that pointing an middle finger vs. an index finger is offensive. Well, it depends on what is going on with the person who wags and the party being wagged at. If the inquiry by Rev. Jim was just a question to the congregation, it may have been narrow-mindedness of the congregation. If some underlying commotion was going on, there may have been an intentional message from Rev. Jim to the congregation. We may need to know what else was going on to come to a "satisfactory" conclusion about who decides. Nonetheless, hold no prisoners for the alledged transgression, God will avenge what is/was wrong.

American culture / society has attached a very specific meaning to the raised middle finger that is more or less universally understood by anyone over about 6 years old. Because of this, it really doesn't matter where it started or whether it should be understood to have this meaning - these are really beside the point. Given what it now means it is really no different than if the pastor had said the phrase out loud - or had said anything else that would be considered an expletive. It was poor judgment on the part of a spiritual leader, especially in a church setting - and especially when speaking to a very conservative audience. Ultimately this illustration was used for one reason alone - its shock value. Because everyone knows what it means, he didn't need to say any more than that his son was fascinated with his middle finger - because everyone had already understood the point - and he would probably still have his position with the church. With this act of poor judgment, he forfeited his credibility as a godly man of wisdom. Since we don't have enough information to know whether he tried to defend his actions and how it was dealt with by the church in any detail, it is impossible to know if the "punishment" fit the crime - but since it seems inexcusable, there was probably no other choice that would have been appropriate.

God will avenge?

Must He?

Can He not heal? Or can He not merely observe the exchange and let it pass?

I would really like to move beyond the God as Judge/Rewarder/Punisher paradigm. Can we? Please God?

You are to always be guided be the cultural context of the country in which you live and minister.
But, above that is the guide of God's word and don't say that is too simplistic an answer.

I recently returned from the US after living for three years in England. While there I learned that when you indicate the number "one" with a hand gesture, you do not use the index finger as we do here. The raised thumb is the universal gesture for "one" because the index finger extended is an obscene gesture in the UK and most of Europe. Two fingers extended is double that gesture, so for the number two the thumb and index finger are used.

The point being that context is everything, and that offense can be taken even when none is intended. If the sermon illustration had been used in the Methodist church I attended in Dallas it most likely would have been met with uproarous laughter and possible even returned in a humorous manner.

Thanks for sharing the story.

An excellent illustration, David, that I imagine will be handy next time I travel abroad.

I would imagine that moral offences and cultural offences aren't always the same. Jesus taught us that the intent and motivations within our hearts are crucial factors in determining what is sin. One can technically be sinning in North American while using a gesture that isn't considered culturally taboo e.g., a contemptuously sarcastic 'thumbs-up'. Thus, context is merely the generally accepted communicative means of expressing and understanding what overflows from our hearts.

In many parts of the world, the third world and the Far East especially, the use of the "internaltional" hand sign for "okay" is deffinately not o.k. Flashing the okay sign is at least as obscene as the raised middle finger. It has the effect (affect?) of calling the other person a particular anatomical part universal to all of us which no one wishes to be called.

Does it offend? Of course it does. Matthew 12:36 "And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment." NASB (1995)

Can we get past a God of judgement and wrath? Only if we abandon God for a god who has abandoned some of His character in favor of inclusivism and universalism. And, Yes, those are "ism's" that are intolerant and condemning of non-inclusivists and non-universalists.

The raised middle finger means whatever we see it meaning. In Singapore I discovered that hitting the closed hand in the open palm of the other hand is seen the same as the use of the index finger. Had I used "the bird" while preaching only Americans would have protested.

In 1969 I grew a beard and many conservative Christians were offended. One woman pulled my beard and said it is ugly. Who offended whom? Of course those weak in faith are easily offended just as it says in 1 CO about those who eat meat dedicated to idols. The C of C Minister was awfully bold in his preaching and we see that many folks do not want boldness.

This blog speaks volumes. The question the blogger asks is amazingly simple to answer. The greater mystery is how this sort of empty rhetoric is paraded as intelligent conversation.

The pastor's point -- that intention is the heart of sin -- would have been illustrated just fine without the "shock value" of his gesture. The fact is that he himself really intended to offend his congregation, however "innocent" he may have claimed to be. He may not have been flipping off any one person specifically, but he sure did intend for his flock to be offended. As one poster stated: "You are to always be guided be the cultural context of the country in which you live and minister." We tailor our worship services, the words we use, and even the cultural references to fit our "audience" (city, state, denomination, age of congregation, presence of dignitaries, etc.). Intent plays into every word and gesture we use. That pastor knew full well what he was doing, and he was terribly short-sighted if he could not have seen the end result. I can make my point in casual conversation without cursing, even when I want to emphasize my frustration and anger. Tailor your words and gestures to the context and audience, and you'll offend less and educate more.

Could this pastor have made his point without shocking or offending us?
Let me ask a related question...
Could God have told us he loved us without sending his son to be butchered in gory fashion for us? He did, for thousands of years, but it never sunk in until he sent his son.
Sorry, all you people who say the pastor didn't need to 'go that far'. American 'Christians' are a pretty sedentary bunch that don't often respond well to challenges of their worldview.
As a senior pastor, I remember a discussion in an adult Sunday School class a couple years ago about 'vulgar language' -- what makes it vulgar, and why. The basic answer was, 'Who cares why, but whoever says a word like that is surely going to hell.'
What I am getting at, is we need to be bold and brash because our churches have fallen asleep and are having a hard time waking up. They must wake up if they want to be relevant to the unchurched world.

Think we need to love more and be offended far less. It seems to me that Jesus was constantly offending the "religious" whilst seeing and loving real people for who they truly were rather than spending his time being "offended".