"Is it a third wave of the Holy Spirit."

In my book It's a Dance: Moving with the Holy Spirit I argued that the traits of the emerging church are precisely the traits we should expect from a holistic movement of the Holy Spirit. Especially if we look at the work of the Holy Spirit more broadly in Scripture rather than the shiny and exciting aspects that Holy Spirit movements have typically emphasized. So what we are seeing very much could be considered not as much a "Third Wave" as a consistent, yet understated, wave of the Holy Spirit finding new freedom of expression and attention. Wagner's "Third Wave" really is just a revised version of Pentecostal/Charismatic beliefs, only with yet another power/authority structure so I wouldn't really term what is happening now in the same category as Wagner's.

Leaders like George Fox emphasized the Holy Spirit a great deal in his writings many centuries ago and from this the Quakers were born. And we see these emphases in other movements in other times throughout Christian history.

Wallis and Gushee are reactionaries who are trying to overcompensate for the acknowledged excesses of the now waning Christian Right. They are shadow-boxing against an opponent that, for all intents and purposes, no longer exists, at least as a viable force in American religious or political life. With the revival of interest in historic orthodoxy, many in the emerging generation are growing out of (as opposed to merely outgrowing) the evangelicalism of their youth and growing into a deeper expression of the faith rooted in antiquity. Such persons have no time for the petty politics of a spiritually vapid American sectrarianism which knows nothing of the rich heritage of faith prior to Plymouth Rock.

My jaundiced observations are that the the latter Great Awakenings were repackaged racisms. This "fourth" being the repackaging and relabeling of "white" privilege and hegemony into the "supernatural, born-again race" for an increasingly pluralistic society. However, the movement just happens to be, by some wild coincidence that could never have been predicted...to be "white" conservative male dominated...with only a relatively few non-"white," sometimes just happily contrarian, but always anti-gay and pro-patriarchy smug haters joining in.

I remember Kenneth Copeland glorifying the supernatural, born-again race one day on TV, and John Whitehead of the Rutherford Institute wrote a book in the Seventies that explicitly laid the supernatural race spiritual war scenario out in no uncertain terms. God hates democracy, and the wrong side won the Civil War, too. What a disgusting and immoral little book, but presumably this was a youthful indiscretion on his part...though one he hasn't seen fit to publicly renounce, at least that I've heard, unlike his youthful flirtation with communism.

The Holy Spirit has little to do with the Fourth Great Awakening, I hope...unholy self-righteousness, carefully cultivated fear of the "other," and greed for unearned power and privilege proclaimed as God's will, on the other hand...

Remember the 1960's and the cry for change that ended up bringing about the current social and moral mess America is in at the present time? That's becasuse America followed the Piper of the Left. And we got the Neo-Nostic Carters, Clintons, and Gores. But there have always been the Boomers of the Sixies that wanted a more compassionate society based on the founding principles of this country. Don't presume to bellieve those principles were not Christian. I can only hope and pray this under 30 Changers don't follow the Pipers such as Obama, Oprah, Bill, Al, or Jimmy. They are Apostates on Christ, His Church, and America. This is one 60 year old previous flower child ready for a change to relevant Christinity, Heroic Conservatism, and guiltless embracing a exciting new day without a bunch of elitist leading the way.

In response to Mr. Peterson, I would encourage him to re-read the history of the Pentecostal movement. It was Daddy Seymour, a black preacher, who spearheaded the Azusa revival in California which swept the nation. If anything has marked the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement it has been the multi ethnic congregations that have flourished under it. At the present time, the Pentecostal movement has been documented as growing at rapid speed in South America, Africa, and Asia. The hub of church activity is quickly moving (or many argue already has moved) to the Third World, which has been exempt from the racial injustices of America, but guilty of it's own prejudices.
To make judgments based upon televangelists or writers in their youth is not the way to determine the health of a part of the Body of Christ.

Everytime someone tries to fold large movements into a catchy tag-line, something major gets left out. I have a lot of respect for Wallis. He has kept in the game for a long time, but when I read his prescriptions -- as opposed to his descriptions of the problems, which I like better -- they really do seem to me to be an appeal to conservatives to embrace classic liberal programs. Starting as a liberal, I worked in an inner city Catholic parish for most of my ten years in a doctoral program in theology at the University of Chicago. I began to judge that the conservatives were right in their criticisms of those programs. By the late 1970s and early 1980s, government programs enacted 1960's were putting band-aids on problems that were at least half-caused, certainly worsened by by those same programs. At about the time I was leaving Altgeld Gardens, Barack Obama was starting work there as a community organizer. I'm cautiously optimistic that Obama has transcended classic liberalism in ways that Wallis has not. Second he's deeply rooted in the gospel's challenges -- as is Wallis. But he adds a dimension that no one else can. He knows white privilege and racisim for what they are, but his entire person embodies approaches to transcending them that I do not see in the new evangelicalism. He knows the cancer eating away at the soul of poor, inner-city blacks, and he knows there's not much whites can do to cure it. My question is whether he can translate that knowledge into terms that whites, blacks, and others can understand. The way campaigns work in this country, a candidate is not forced to articulate the kinds of nuanced ways he or she understands issues. Sound bites abound, like the one in the previous post that simply makes him an "Apostate on Christ, His Church, and America." All heat, no light.

Everytime someone tries to fold large movements into a catchy tag-line, something major gets left out. I have a lot of respect for Wallis. He has kept in the game for a long time, but when I read his prescriptions -- as opposed to his descriptions of the problems, which I like better -- they really do seem to me to be an appeal to conservatives to embrace classic liberal programs. Starting as a liberal, I worked in an inner city Catholic parish for most of my ten years in a doctoral program in theology at the University of Chicago. I began to judge that the conservatives were right in their criticisms of those programs. By the late 1970s and early 1980s, government programs enacted 1960's were putting band-aids on problems that were at least half-caused, certainly worsened by by those same programs. At about the time I was leaving Altgeld Gardens, Barack Obama was starting work there as a community organizer. I'm cautiously optimistic that Obama has transcended classic liberalism in ways that Wallis has not. Second he's deeply rooted in the gospel's challenges -- as is Wallis. But he adds a dimension that no one else can. He knows white privilege and racisim for what they are, but his entire person embodies approaches to transcending them that I do not see in the new evangelicalism. He knows the cancer eating away at the soul of poor, inner-city blacks, and he knows there's not much whites can do to cure it. My question is whether he can translate that knowledge into terms that whites, blacks, and others can understand. The way campaigns work in this country, a candidate is not forced to articulate the kinds of nuanced ways he or she understands issues. Sound bites abound, like the one in the previous post that simply makes him an "Apostate on Christ, His Church, and America." All heat, no light.

Oh, Bobby N. Hill, that's so cute: Democrats are bad, Republicans are good. Thanks for clearing that up.

Mr. Morgan assumes by his questions that Wallis is correct that such a change is taking place on the scale Wallis claims. Of course the Religious Right movement made mistakes and course corrections are and have taken place, but at the end of the day, very few evangelicals are interested in Christian Marxism and government-mandated redistribution of wealth as some sort of Great Awakening. I just wish Jim Wallis and others like him could take some really basic economics courses so they could comprehend basic principles of incentive and reward. Perhaps CT should ask the same question about Wallis and Gushee as it asks about Britney Spears--that is, should the media simply quit covering them?

trim your lamps.....He'll be here soon

Thou shalt not steal -- not even by majority vote.

It is grievous to me that neither the article nor the pseudo-intellectual posts afterward address spiritual reality here. The Fourth Great Awakening? (or even the Third?) Awakenings such as took place under Edwards (the First) or Asbury (the Second) were NOT political, they were spiritual. Did they have later political ramifications? Of course, just as the Evangelical Revival in England in 1735-90 gave birth to Wilberforce. But to call the later political movements Awakenings borders on blasphemy. Awakenings are movements of the Sovereign Spirit of God in real revival involving enlightenment of conscience, repentance, conversion, often mass salvation experiences, and a new beginning of obedience to God. Unfortunately, Wallis and his postmodern cohorts specialize in redefining everything in socio-political terms, just as Liberation Theology did with salvation. This is a sad substitute indeed. Pray God He sends us the real thing.

Unfortunately for those who think that conservatism = godliness, during the 1960's there were no major leaders from the Goldwater conservative wing of the Republican party who were doing anything about Civil Rights. Likewise, the Republican Party of today has not one African American who has been promoted as a presidential contender. Even in the 1999-2000 primary election cycle, Alan Keyes, the one candidate who was committed to both conservative and pro-life principles, was ignored in favor of George W. Bush.

Why should I believe that the conservative movement has any interest in overturning white priviledge when it has clearly shown that the only thing it fights are threats to that priviledge. Just as Barack Obama has become a beacon for the 21 century Democratic Party, someone, perhaps J.C. Watts, should have been waiting in the wings within the Republican Party. It looks to me like the only time Conservatives are interested in winning the hearts and minds of African Americans is at election time, unless they think that they can accomplish their objectives more easily through voter suppression.

I know the history of the Pentecostal movement, in general outlines anyway. Which is why is said "repackaging" and point out that there is interracial interaction. But, political Evangelical movers and shakers seem to be mostly "white," with some Black contrarian types like Justice Thomas and Alan Keyes, the latter especially fitting my charge of "anti-gay and pro-patriarchy smug haters."

The repackaging of the Great Awakening is still glorifying blood soaked traitors like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, this time because they were so very, very pious, and not racist at all, with "States' Rights" (read Southern "Rights"), the old main reason for glorifying them, voiced more sotto voce. You would think that half the enslaved people in the South gleefully became Black Confederates, too.

The GOP has repackaged itself from the Party of Lincoln to the States' Rights Party, which if the old scary tales from yesteryears were true, would have Lincoln's bones rotating like high speed jet turbines. I even saw McCain on Charley Rose confirm that the GOP is all about states' rights. I lost all respect for him at that moment.

Religious Right vetted candidates constantly evoke the Reagan name, whose presidency was a disaster for the Black community...and wasn't all that good for other minority communities either. The corrupt Reagan administration's long delay in dealing with the AIDS crisis is simply unforgivable, a true crime against humanity, even if the Iron Curtain did fall on his watch, which certainly can be applauded.

Yet conservatives wonder why the Black community, with a large proportion of church going Protestants, votes overwhelmingly against GOP candidates. It's because, I think (I'm hardly a Black Community spokesman, being Norwegian American myself), conservatives evangelical approved leaders claim not to be racist, but act afraid of Black leaders who aren't Allen Keyes or other obvious contrarians, and still talk in racist code...with phrases like States' Rights, 10th Amendment, Original intent of the (some of them slave holding) Founding Fathers, Literal Interpretation of the Bible...it's just disgusting and intellectually and morally bankrupt.

As I think Bayard Rustin pointed out, and he would have known, racism isn't only about "Black and White."

Merely claiming not to be racist is a start to actually not being racist or racist-like, if one actually believes it, but it's only a beginning, a very tentative beginning that will take much work to make true. Work conservative "white" Evangelicals anyway, have not done in my observation, but merely claim to have somehow always been despite considerable evidence to the contrary...and the proof is that they're conservative Evangelicals.

Conservative Evangelicals still obviously fear civil rights and equality for all, still show obvious fear of integration and equality of opportunity, show obvious greed for their neighbor's property and jobs, and still show obvious fear for the "other's" real and possible influences on society, and still thump the bible and claim that their hate is they're just not outspokenly anti-Black anymore, like they were when I was a kid. They have a new scapegoat for their dubious conspiracy theories and bullying...gay people, which too many Black people like to abuse as well. The gay population is maybe half the size of the Black population, and is unlikely to grow (or shrink) percentage wise...the perfect and perpetual scapegoat for Authoritarian Personality types.

Claiming not to be racist is a very late in the day tentative beginning. And, I don't really believe that conservative Evangelicals, of any ethnicity really do believe they're not racist or racist-like supremacists in some way. They obviously still hate the idea of civil rights and equality under the law for all.

As I think Malcolm X pointed out, Racism is like a Cadillac, there is a new model every year.

Oops, got to go, I don't have time to go over this, so regard it as a first draft that needs revision.

This debate is summed up in on brother's summary: All heat,no light. That in itself indicates the current state of evangelical political thought, having reached the real third stage: bitter lashing out.

Mr. Peterson says much about racism, some of which is no doubt true. But isn't pointing only at white racists in itself quite...racist?

As a jail chaplain, I was preaching one Sunday afternoon. Given the sad demographics of crime and punishment in our culture, the overwhelming majority of my incarcerated congregation was black.

As I built up a head of steam laying out a biblical perspective on the evils of racism, the black guys were with me. Man, were they with me! The "amens" were plentiful and loud. Some were looking at each other like, "Dude actually gets it for a white guy."

"Racism is evil!"

"Amen!"

"Racisim in all its forms and expressions is evil!"

"Amen! Yes! Tell it!"

"Racism is evil no matter what the skin color of the racist."

It got quieter.

"You wanna know a secret? It's every bit as much a drag being hated because you're white as it is being hated because you're black."

You could hear a pin drop.

"A black racist is every bit as much an abomination to God as a white racist."

About half seemed to get it. The other half looked like THEY wanted to lynch ME.

One of the loudest complainers was a black pastor who was busted for repeatedly dipping into the missionary till to fund his gambling addistion. He really didn't understand that he was a criminal; he thought he had a jail ministry! Whenever something happened he didn't like -- such as me being the chaplain rather than him -- he played the race card. I'm sorry, but he was the biggest racist in the house! When are we going to realize that racism cuts both ways???

Can we stop beating up on white heterosexual males? I didn't ask to be born this way. I'm starting to get a complex, and I don't have any advocacy groups to stand up for me.

I have read too much of the previous comments by many who are more intelligent and better read and deeper thinkers than myself; and I have to suggest these comments reproesent too much latent racial hatred and memorialized anger and personal peeves to be from humble Christian leaders.
It seems to me:
1. We worry too much about which political party is going to be in power post-November and don't worry enough about being loving witnesses of Christ's transformation power in our lives.
2. We may consider this period to be the third or fourth revival, but from what I have read about revivals the Holy Spirit revives the populous only after there is confession of sin; which preceeds repentance of our past in a desire to come closer to Christ.
3. Political power may sound good; but Godly power available to the truly repentant is best.
Fully committed disciples of Jesus Christ should strive for the best; not settle for the good.
Jon

"Awakenings are movements of the Sovereign Spirit of God in real revival involving enlightenment of conscience, repentance, conversion, often mass salvation experiences, and a new beginning of obedience to God." Thank you RJR, well said and AMEN! When we truly seek an inundation of the Spirit, the issues of justice and poverty and redistribution and the environment will become priorities that will be addressed in Godly terms by Spirit-driven caring believers.

(The Publishers Weekly reviewer observed: "As a cohesive book...this has a rough and clunky sensibility, with considerable repetition of ideas, examples and even phrasing.")

I'm glad to find I'm not the only one who finds it hard to read Wallis. I couldn't get past the first chapter or two of God's Politics, and won't try this book. I think it's arrogant to take his political positions and not make his prose more accessible to the common reader. He needs a good editor. Sorry if this seems small-minded.

Racism is about power, as well as bigotry, which is why I also included the phrase "racist-like." "It" would be racist if the racist-like person actually had the power and influence of a oppressor caste. Some argue that Black people simply can't be racist, as the Black community is not an oppressor caste, like "white."

Be that as it may, bigotry and ill will can come from people in all skin hues. Add the power of an oppressor caste, and you have racism.

Or course, one can also argue that with the fall of Jim Crow, there is no oppressor caste in America. Yet, I would say that as long as some people identify as "white," there is an unofficial oppressor caste. Progress from childhood days, but not enough. Even with an end of "whiteness," there will still be racist-like, bigoted people with ill will towards other communities, I imagine.

Good point, David, however, the conversation is, I thought, about an American Great Awakening.

And to gay people in Africa, the Pentecostal movement is just one more dangerous, exclusive and divisive insult, as it is seems to be here.

Ed Gross and Julie came the closest to speaking the truth about this subject. In the first place the premise of Wallis book is off. The Holy Spirit does not work once every century. Secondly, politicising His work is to do what is antithetical to Him.

We have yet to reach anything like a "Great Awakening" in America in my 58 years. The sovereign work of the Holy Spirit comes with His agenda and with His change that He breathes out upon His people and those who will become part of "the Kingdom of our God and of His Christ."

When the Spirit of the Lord is upoon us as believers, we do what Jesus did. Nothing less will do. We will "preach the gospel to the poor, heal the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to the captives, recovery of sight to the blind, set at liberty the oppresed, and proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." That will never bring racism. I say, send that Holy Spirit annointing that we may really be like Jesus, i.e. the church God intended us to be before a watching world--a people blind to race and fully seeing the needs of all men.

The question is not whose side we are on but WHO is on the Lord's side? (Holy Spirit fall on me that I may do Jesus' work in the world.) That is not a conservative or liberal agenda but a God agenda. There is no place for hate or greed for a Christian but a need for grace and mercy and love. The only white thing about God's agenda is the Great White Throne upon which He sits.

Is private repentance and conversion not expressed in a person's life? What is a repentant or revived life if it does not have tangible fruit: prisoners visited, hungry fed, homeless housed... (literally and spiritually - kept in our minds/hearts)?

The Bible says by their fruit you shall know them, and that the spirit goes where it wills to go - not where the "Church" says it should. It's quite logical that the people of Love (1 John 4: 7,8) will look upon those who claim to speak for them, systems which claim to represent their faith/hope/love and decide that "These don't represent me."

The inner spiritual awakening is acted out otherwise it's as if lighting a candle and then covering it.

I can't believe the hate I see spewed on this blog. Perhaps We should search our hearts and ask God to foregive our hate, envy,
pride, and all of our evil intent. God said pray for those who per-
secute you. We're supposed to be a witness for Christ. We can't be
effective for Christ when our hearts are full of envy,strife,hate,
pride,slander etc. , etc. . God commanded us to love one another,
if we can't do that, than we should pray that God will fill us with
love for each other. FOREGIVE US OUR SINS AS WE FOREGIVE THOSE WHO
HAVE SINNED AGAINST US.

Re: "It's every bit as much a drag being hated because you're white as it is being hated because you're black. . . A black racist is every bit as much an abomination to God as a white racist."

Absolutely true, but I believe there are few-- very few-- white persons in America who have ever been discriminated against by a black person to the degree or quantity that black persons are discriminated against by whites to this day. I am a white, evangelical pastor who has lived and ministered in the black community for over ten years on the southside and south suburbs of Chicago. Two years of that time I drove a school bus for a black-owned bus company, picking up public school students in some of the roughest black neighborhoods in the city of Chicago. My wife and I are the only white couple in the church where I am now a full-time associate pastor. Over these past ten years plus, I have experienced one, maybe two, instances of racism from blacks towards me, and none of them have even come close to the degree of racism that I am know African-Americans receive from whites on nearly a weekly basis. On the other hand, when we adopted our African-American infant daughter, we didn't have her but a few weeks when a white lady in a check-out line asked my wife, "What is THAT?!" My wife replied, "Oh, you mean my DAUGHTER?" The woman replied, "You should have gotten a white baby."

Ironically, the community into which we moved in 1998 was a white-flight community that turned predominantly black in the mid 1980s when "those people" began moving in. Yet even though many of our neighbors witnessed the mass exodus of whites and knew the reason they moved out, the vast majority of the African-Americans we have had contact with have treated us wonderfully and have fully accepted us-- and it's not just to our faces as you might think. For the few who have acted a bit wary of us, even they begin to accept us once they know they can trust us.

The key is RELATIONSHIP AND TRUST. In the case of Mr. Hutto (the jail chaplain who wrote the quoted remarks above), I have to wonder what kind of relationship did he have with the black inmates to whom he was preaching-- i.e., had he built enough rapport, connection and trust to earn the right to make those comments? If relationship and trust were lacking in any way, his comments may have been interpreted by his black audience as a thinly veiled way to justify his own racial prejudices. And can Mr. Hutto genuinely say that the racism he has experienced in his lifetime could even be compared to the racism many of his black congregation has experienced in their lifetimes?

White people just don't seem to know how deep the wounds of racism have cut into the black community. The truth is, when black people react in apparently racist ways toward whites, it may not be so much racism as it is simply that they are keeping their guard up because both their history and PERSONAL EXPERIENCE have taught them that they had better watch their backside when they're around white people.

I'm not justifying black racism any more than I would justify white racism. Racism is racism no matter who perpetrates it, and God abhors it. But given the history of white-black relations up to the current day and time, and when we compare our suffering to the suffering whites have inflicted on blacks, do we white people really have any room to complain about black racism when it occurs?

An old saying says, "Walk a mile in your neighbor's shoes and see how they fit on you." I believe that if whites were to walk in black shoes for just a week or two, they'd be more than ready to trade them back in and would never complain about black racism again.

I have written a book , "The Spiritual Society" that lays out trends and an agenda for the church to return to the mainstream of society with the millenial generation as the leaders of change. It is interesting to see other authors seeing the same vision.