"I've encountered a number of Christian groups that have a more profound love for, and unconditional defense of, the Holy Land than many American Jews."

Should we as Christians give unconditional defense of any human government? I am for limited support of Israel. I believe they have the right to defend themselves. But there are times when they have gone too far. If we are unconditional in our support then we are saying that it is not possible for the government of Israel to go too far in their defense or or internally mistreat their own citizens? I believe that the US can and has made mistakes, so I think that it is appropriate to condemn those mistakes. Why should Israel be any different?

Protestant churches who are busy divesting themselves from business ventures in Israel would be wise to recall one word: causality. The media have failed to recognize causality in the conflicts between Israel and its enemies that surround it. But that doesn't mean that Christians can forget causality. Also, we must recall that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed.

I have a deep and profound love for the nation of Israel. Every day, there are more added to the numbers of messianic Jews and I couldn't be happier!

In this post, you say nothing about Palestinian Christians. Do you think perhaps their situation may have influenced the mainline churches? Do you think perhaps these churches may have been persuaded by Christian leaders like Michel Sabbah and Naim Ateek? Do you think that maybe these Christian churches feel a particular bond to their fellow Christians, and want to help alleviate their perceived suffering?

I'm troubled by the extent to which acquiescence to the modern ideal of the nation-state is apparent in evangelical Protestant interaction with the state of Israel. Even, I would think, if one is a dispensationalist, and so believes that ethnic Jews have some sort of inalienable right to the land, one ought to be able to acknowledge that, perhaps, this government, this means of possession, might be unacceptable. Instead, we move from "the Jews have a right to the land" to "the modern democratic state of Israel has a right to the land" with unsettling ease.

Adam S, I agree that no government should be offered unconditional defense. Governments are run by humans, and all humans make mistakes. One of the things that has made our country great has been our ability to criticize the policies of our leaders as we all struggle for a better world.

To Bill: There is a theological difference between mainline Christians and evangelicals with regards to how they understand God's covenant to the Jews. But I'm sure some mainline churches are also motivated against Israel politically because of the "perceived suffering" of Palestinian Christians. I think it's safe to say this suffering isn't even perceived. The problem, I believe, is that Israel has tried to make life better for all Palestinians at various times during the past 41 years, by negotiating for peace and autonomy, by agreeing to the Oslo Accords, by pulling out of Gaza. But the Israelis have been slapped by every olive branch they've handed Palestinian leaders: http://www.jewishjournal.com/thegodblog/2007/08/everybody-into-bomb-shelter.html

As I said before, nobody is blameless, and certainly not when it comes to the most complicated and drawn-out peace process in at least modern history. But good faith and political spurring goes a lot farther than haste punishments. And slurs like calling the creation of Israel the "original sin" help no one.

Intesting, the political organization, Institute for Religion and Democracy is also reporting on this - see www.theird.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=581&srcid=581

Shame on the way the United Methodist Church for the way it has been educating its flock about Israelis and Jews.

There are reports on the Methodist materials on a few websites like the www.camera.org and www.christianfairwitness.com and www.jewishpublicaffairs.org.
Comparing Israeli occupation, as terrible as the plight of Palestinians is, to the Holocaust in which millsions were put made slaves, put in ghettos, shot and buried in pits, sent to concentration camps and gas chambers. Disgusting.

They call every founder of modern Israel an extremist or terrorist.

They say the Arab League never meant the famous three no's?!? The Arab League waged wars in which many Arabs and Israelis died. They say that Egyptian president Nassar wanted peace - he blockaded Israel in 1949. Come on!

They say that the founder of the Black Hand, Sheikh ‘Izz ed-Din al-Qassam was commited to "social justice" and "direct action." He was a terrorist back in the 1930's. The military wing of Hamas is named after him. The Qassam rocket is named for him.

And some stuff in there just doesn't make any sense. It teaches that the Israeli government pays to send Israelis to vote in American elections. Huh??

I don't know about "wicked" but if they go around saying Israel was born in "original sin" and they demonize a nation and its people like that, so be it.

Israel, as a nation, was not "replaced" but displaced, i.e., removed as a national entity. This occurred, officially, by divine appointment, in 70 AD at the destruction of Jers. by the Roman armies. The Jewish leaders stubbornly refused to submit to the rule of Messiah, Jesus Christ, God's Son, our Redeemer and fell under God's judgment. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered and/or taken captive, survivors were scattered throughout the world (dispersion), the city and the temple were leveled even with the ground, as Christ prophesied (Matt. 24:2), thus ending the Jewish commonwealth. All believers, Christ's disciples, whether Jewish or Gentile, continued, under God, as a new entity, the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16), that is the Church. Christ continues to build His church (Matt 16:18), throughout all generations, age without end (Ephesians (3:21). Amen, Hallelujah! The Age of Law, under Moses, was only temporary, to show the sinfulness of sin (Rom. 5:20), until Christ came and fulfilled all things spoken by the Prophets. Yes, He fulfilled ALL things, concluding with His second coming in power and glory at the destruction of Jers. in the first century AD. God has only one program today for believers, and that is His Church, under His Kingdom, with Christ as its glorious Head. Please dust off your Bibles, study it's pages and discover these glorious truths.

FYI, Catepillar makes the bulldozers that knock down the palestinian homes. People should wait and read the report and not just believe the characterizations of others. Meanwhile consider reading the parable of the Good Samaritan.

This has been going on since Israel took it's country back from the Palestinians, in 1967, who are occupiers of the country. We had best think about what we are doing - we are always hearing the Palestinian side, thanks to our liberal press, [poor Palestinians], but we never hear the Israeli side. Nine young people were killed in a Jewish seminary - the shooter was Palestinian. Bible prophecy is very clear that those who curse Israel will likewise be cursed by God. Of course, since we, in the US, no longer believe in God, we can do whatever we want, and that includes the church. The Methodist Church is screwed-up now anyway, becoming almost as liberal as we Presbyterians, i.e., our General Assembly. There is no doubt that God will judge those who turn against Israel. If someone continually attacked the US, would we respond? How soon we have forgotten 911? We had best count the cost before making any moves against Israel.

The fact that the Methodists want to condemn the existence of the State of Israel is not surprising, nor is it all that significant. Many mainline Protestant denominations have allied themselves with the political and cultural left. They have little viability, and in thirty years or less the Methodists and their ilk will be as scarce as hens' teeth. So let them carp about the Jews all they want. The existence of the Jews and Israel is more than a mere historical anomaly, and any Christian who can't see that is willfully blind.

A Christian should not feel compelled to give carte blanche to all of Israel's policies, nor be indifferent to the suffereing of the Palestinians. But after sixty years of continuous rancor and bloodletting between the Israelis and the Palestinians, I cannot help but think that the misery the Palestinians are now suffereing is self-inflicted, and a symptom of a group that cannot create a civil society, nor come to terms with the reality that the Jews are going nowhere. If mainline Protestant lefties want to act as a cheering section for thugocracies like Hamas in Gaza, and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, let them. Who cares?

As a member of the United Methodist Church, I am deeply offended by a "church-sponsored report" that called the creation of the State of Israel "original sin." That report does not speak for me nor does it speak for most UMC members. It must not be taken as offical! I personally favor the existence of the State of Israel as well as a Palestinian state on the West Bank or where ever. Peacefully co-existence is possible between these two peopples, though it make take a long time. I wish our church leaders wouldn't make such reports, since they ignore the voice of the denominations' members viewpoints.

Many evangelical Methodists are frustrated and alarmed at elements within out church whose published opinions are implied as the opinions of the denomination as a whole. Only the General Conference has the authority to speak on behalf of all United Methodists. Demographics within our denomination are shifting to the 'south and the west' as certain apostate elements in Methodism bemoan the 'southern captivity of the church.' The part of Methodism which continues to grow and thrive is that part which still follows the theology of John Wesley, which still believes in a resurrected Jesus, born of a virgin, and which still believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, special revelation given by a God who can be known, who revealed Himself as loving Father in the incarnate Son who dwelled among us. How sad the ultimate fate of those who have departed from the authority of His written Word, who seek to promote a religion of humanism. United Methodists need to let their delegates to the General Conference know where we stand on praying for the peace of Jerusalem.

Mr. Greenberg, your history is faulty. Jews are Jews are Jews --
not proselytes. Mr. Joseph, your theology is faulty. Those who hold to Replacement Theology want the blessings of Israel without the curses! When the resurrected Jesus was asked (Acts 1:6-8) "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?", Jesus COULD have said, "No, no,
you've got it all wrong. I'm finished with Israel. My only program
now is the Church." But He did not. Instead, He said, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own
authority." The nation of Israel is like no other. That a nation
was created, an ancient language revived, that the Jews survive and
prosper, in spite of worldwide opposition, is nothing short of
miraculous. In His own time and way, God will save them, as
promised in Romans 11:26. Meanwhile, we should be supportive of
the only democracy in the Middle East, a democracy which wants
only to defend itself against hostile enemies who desire its
total annihilation. As for the Methodist leaders, they have
joined the Presbyterians and Episcopalians in apostasy.

I disagree with Barbara that these 2 peoples can coexist. I further disagree that the situation of Palestinian Christians would improve even if we whisked every last Jew off to Idaho. The Palestinian Christians are eternally oppressed and threatened by their "brothers", the Muslims. These same Muslims will not rest until every square inch of Palestine is in their hands, and every Jew is dead, gone, or oppressed as a "dhimmi". Before anyone indicts Jewish rule in Palestine, recall that from 1948-1967 no Jew could reach the Temple Mount, but under Isreali rule the Muslims still control the area. Recall West Bank Arabs begging Jewish soldiers not to turn areas over to Arafat's Palestinian Authority. Recall the Muslim gunmen that took over the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. And recall the recent killings of Christians in Gaza. Sabbah is not stupid; if he didn't push the anti-Israeli line, he'd be in trouble.

I'd like to know more about the reported "original sin" charge. One might make such a case, I think, with regard to all nation-states, ethnically based states, and even traditional and tribal governmental entities. As I recall, the prophet Samuel wasn't too keen on abetting ancient Israel's desire for a monarchy.

In any case, no report of such a nature can ultimately be called a United Methodist position unless the General Conference approves it, and that has not happened. There are many currents of thought in the UMC, and we do share a sensitivity to the plight of Palestinian Christians.

One thing for those leaning in a pro-Israel direction on this matter to consider is something the prophets frequently reiterated: God's people are called to a higher standard of social-ethical practice than their neighbors. Bulldozing houses because someone who may have lived there committed an offense seems extreme, especially when occupants may have had neither knowledge of nor complicity with the offense.

The problem of the wall, as I understand it, is that it (1) creates a new obstacle to a peaceful settlement and (2) it frequently disregards natural communications and transit links between Palestinian communities.

So I find myself in a wait-and-see mode regarding my Church's ongoing conversations to arrive at a wise position on this matter. In the meantime, I don't expect to buy any Caterpillar products.

I spent two weeks in Israel last July and traveled into the West Bank and saw for myself what's happening. I had previously read two books by Father Elias Chacour who was born in Palestine and loves the Jewish people while hating the occupation. His own family was displaced from their village upon the creation of the State of Israel, their home destroyed, but he preaches the beatitudes and is committed to being a peacemaker.

Until you talk with Palestinian Christians, as I did, and until you see and experience for yourself the check points, the wall, the daily humiliations of a whole people, until you see the vast Israeli settlements in the West Bank...all illegal, built on hills, and until you see how nearly impossible it is for Palestinians to travel in their own land, your statements of support for Israel
are baseless. There are many Jews in Israel that are against Zionism and this occupation but you don't hear about them. Meanwhile the USA gives the Israeli government billions of dollars a year to oppress and destroy a people. God help us!

Would someone please define "mainline" Protestant chueches and name all the ones that fit said description.

I have spent time in Israel. I have studied the problems between the Muslims and the Jews for fourty-five years. From the War of 1967 to the murder of the Israeli Wrestling team at the Munich Olympics to the bombing of the school children from the Golan Heights, and now from Gaza, I have seen constant barbaric behavior by the Muslims. The Palestinians, trained in Germany by Hitler, can never be trusted. Those who would blame Israel or America for the behavior of the Muslims, who are literally murdering Christians and others all over the world every day, are fanciful and naive.It is vital for all Christians wake up and protect the innocent. May God bless Israel.

only takes few verses in the bible to know we are commanded to support isreal they are, genesis 12:3I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU, AND I WILL CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE YOU. Isaiah 49:22 this talks about nations requarding israel. romans 11:26 and they are more to read, my comments here are for those in ignorance or liberial replacement theology remember israel is not the churchas replacement theology pushes and liberial churches and methodist talking out of thier hat, find this very sickening outrages.one other point this insanity of pushing the palestinian state must stop.

In my well-known suburb of NYC, there are a dozen or so magnificent mainline protestant churches, veering in style between classic New England style and old-fashioned Cambridge/Oxford pastoral. Quite beautiful, regardless of your taste.

also: increasingly empty. The only Christian churches alive and growing are RC and evangelical.

I suggest causation: their asinine rhetoric, empty resolutions and enthrallment to a post-modern leftism (and leftism is precisely the word) and empty pews.

evidence the first: Israel divestiture.

Actually those who are anti-Israel in the Presbyterian Church talk like the 1960s spoiled kids who's parents sent to classes in colleges taught by pro-communist, pro-socialist, definitely humanist professors. I'm at loss with the anti-Israel hate talk since the man they claim to follow was a Jew himself and trying to get the Jews back to the ten commandments. He only thought beyond Jews when the lady at the well made Jesus think of the non-Jews. As a Presbyterian, I don't like whats going on in our Church. I wish our Church would start being real Christians by defending Christians who are being burned out, killed, living under Shiah law and under constitutions giving them no rights, citizenship, etc. instead of defending those who encourage the killing, etc. of Christians. Why do we hate our own so much we have no care for them, only for the enemy. Oh, I forgot, it's easier than confronting the enemy, the devil in disguise. I forgive those who gave us the 10 commandments as they try to follow the commandments and do protect and give a good life to those within their borders, unlike their enemies who keep power over their people by keeping them in poverty with no freedom. Christians are being forced out of Islam lands not out of Israel, does that not tell you something.

Mr. Lewis, mainline Protestant churches are the UMC, some of the
Presbyterian denominations, the Episcopal Church, the United Church
of Christ (Obama's affiliation), American Baptist, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and the Disciples of Christ. (Others
may exist, but don't come to mind offhand.) These are contrasted to
the evangelical churches, which are quite numerous: Nazarenes,
Wesleyans, Church of God, Evangelical Free, Evangelical Friends,
Calvary Chapel, various Baptist groups, among many others. Then there are the Pentecostal churches, which some group with evangelicals while others would consider them a separate category. It is important to note that, within all of the liberal, mainline churches there are conservative, evangelical-minded individuals, pastors and congregations. They are not monolithic. But the leadership at the top of the mainliners is almost exclusively liberal.

Rod, Anna, Sandra, and John G.,

Would I be correct in assuming that you all support Pastor John Hagee and wholeheartedly support a global "war on terror" against the evil islamo-fascists who threaten our judeo-christian way of life. After all the only thing those godless infidels understand is brute force, right.

Perhaps the next step in secure our beloved christian nation would be to round up the apostate liberal so-called christian leaders of the mainline denominations for questioning by the Dept. of Homeland Security? Afterall, they hate America and their allegiances are questionable.

Please let me know if I mischaracterize your christian worldview.

John, reread my posting and don't put words in my mouth. Christians don't call Muslims infidels, Muslims call non-Muslims infidels. And where does this islamo-fascist come from. Your language is of the 1930's talk of the communist socialist, humanist language. How old are you. I said as Christians we need to start defending Christians living in non-free countries instead of defending their tormentors. The 1940's generation taught some of us that "Charity begins at home. When home is taken care of than expand your Charity." Thus, we could certainly be more forceful as the most powerful nation in the world about getting more than oil in return for money by demanding that Shiah law not be put into these newly made constitutions. This horrible law gives people the right to treat others horribly while police have to stand by because Shiah law gives the right to the tormentors. We could apply much stronger non-violent pressure to these governments to protect non-Muslims who are more our brothers than Muslims who follow a cold religion written to give certain people power over others unlike Jesus who taught to get back to the ten commandments and taught love instead of getting power, getting even with others, or wiping others out. The submission forced upon Christians and others in these countries is unimaginable by us because we haven't lived under these circumstances. We could be a lot more out spoken instead of total submission to those like Hamas who are following the Koran and Shiah Law. Of course as a woman I would understand this non-citizen role better than you, a male, the ones in power in these non-Christian cultures. Hamas violence is a distraction so they don't need to better the lives of their people, just blame Israel for what Hamas is actually doing to its own people for the sake of Islam and putting their rule in control. We can't see this for some reason.

These mainline churches are apostate. Plain and simple. People who think otherwise would be well guided to open Revelations and read about apostate churches in the latter days. As well, heed the wolf in sheep's clothing...

It is absolutely staggering to myself that discussions such as these, although necessary to enlighten the blinded, even take place. It's like the "vote" in Canadian Anglican Churches re: same sex marriage blessings. Why is there a vote? Why in God's Holy Name is there even a discussion? These leaders are outside the true faith of God's word. And that includes the ones setting their sights on suppressing Israel. It seems, perhaps, that we all need to crack our Bibles more and read what God says.

On suppressing Israel, or same-sex blessings, and/or any other "problem" topic in the Christian Church, we need to stand up, get a backbone and throw these rats and snakes out. They are akin to an infectious disease. We need to stop playing nice. I am NOT advocating the "God hates Gays" condemning placard mentality that persists in some misguided sectors, but I am advocating people to start standing up to their misguided, sinful teachings, and unholy unions, and the interfaith ecumenical movement that is beginning to permeate the Church.

The Bible says (the "true" Bible not these watered down liberal versions) in the last days, many who think they are saved will not be - "I never knew you" -
as well, it says, "many will fall away".

Well the "falling away" has already began on the true, and the fruit is really being to bruise and stink.

We are all imperfect, broken people, but we needn't be naive, and selective in our truth-seeking. That's why the Christian walk is difficult at times. Truth doesn't always feed our perspective the way we want it to. But I digress.

Just as the most churches turned their faces away from truth in Nazi Germany - while the truth seekers were few - so to are many churches today. Just remember God will never forget Israel. If so, then he is a liar. Somehow, I know in my heart he is not. Be as the Bereans and seek the passages, not necessarily the voice coming from the modern day pulpit.

If you are a member of the United Methodist Church and you are alarmed by this "report", perhaps you should look into other leftist and feminist causes which are benefiting from the apportionments you pay. The United Methodist Church is in a serious decline because it has left its first love, Jesus Christ. It no longer has any authority, and as the writer said above it will soon meet its end. It cannot be too soon. I am a third generation Methodist who left the UMC to raise my children in a real Church. The only member of our family which has not left the UMC is 90 years old.

THE JOURNAL OF JOHN WESLEY should be read not only by every United/ Methodist/or other adherent of 'Wesleyanism' but it should be read by every Christian as well. Once per year would not be too much!