Comments

Hi Brad,

Have you had the chance to read David Hart's little book, The Doors of the Sea? It is by far the best thing I've read on the problem of Evil (including C. S. Lewis) and it's only 100 pages.

Hart is very firm on not attributing evil to God. In his view, the created world has a type of "otherness" and autonomy such that you can't simply ascribe every little detail to God's sovereign will. There is much that happens that is contrary to God's will, and creation itself is fallen and enslaved to death. The most one can say is that God, in his redemptive economy, brings good out of evil - what man intends for evil, God can subvert for good. Hart rejects with the utmost ferocity, any notion that God "needs" or "plans" evil to fulfill his purposes - and I'm inclined to agree with him.

WFO,
I have not, though I saw you mentioned that book in a comment at The God Blog. I get the feeling I should order that.

I've read David Hart. He tries to wriggle out of the problem, but he doesn't succeed, in my opinion.

If God knows about the natural disaster (say), and He has the ability to stop it (being all-powerful and all), but still does not stop it, then on some level, you have to admit that He does this according to an intention, to a plan.

"Free will" can't get you out of this. Do hurricanes and tidal waves need to have "free will"? Not that free will would get you out of it anyway - "free will" is of such primary importance that it is a reason to allow horrible suffering? Why, exactly? And isn't that just a "plan" too - the "allow horrible suffering to allow free will plan"? How is that different or less odious than other plans?

It seems to me that a theodicy that does not make room for a devil with limited autonomy (with an emphasis on limited) causes one to end up with other errors, such as deism or a ying-yang God.

To that end, I believe Greg Boyd's "God at War" has much to offer, though I don't subscribe to his open theism.

Was the Cross God's plan, the devil's plan, or both? I believe it was both--God's long-term plan and Satan's short-term plan. Satan always overplays his hand, and God always wins in the end.

This is not Manichaean, because it is not gnostic, nor is it eternal. It is simply Biblical, and I believe is the cosmology of Jesus (whose cosmology always trumps mine). There is an end to this struggle, and there is a superior and an inferior in it.

Hagee was victimized in this instance, but he strayed from the clear distinction given in John 10:10. The Holocaust was Satan's plan and responsibility should be properly laid at his feet, not at the feet of Jesus.

Those wounded feet win over all--in the end.

Faith. Either you believe the whole word of God or you don't."As for God, his way is perfect" II Sam 22:31. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Is 47:7 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higer than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Is 55:9 "...how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past fining out!" Rm 11:33 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding." Prov 3:5 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me." Jn 14:6 No need for all of these books only one Book is needed.

David,

I can't really speak for others, but I think what you've shared seriously diminishes your chances of being asked to do a workshop at the annual Christian Booksellers Association conference.:)

If God knows about the natural disaster (say), and He has the ability to stop it (being all-powerful and all), but still does not stop it, then on some level, you have to admit that He does this according to an intention, to a plan.

This assumes a view of omnipotence that overwhelms all created autonomy. Christ challenges our assumptions, not the least of which is that of the nature of power.

I've been thinking a lot about this in my seminary classes as well. Although I agree that, in the end, we have to believe that God's way is perfect, the problem with taking verses like Isaiah 47:7 literally is that it creates an inconsistency within God's nature. One the one hand, we have Scriptures which tell us that God is good, loving, and holy. On the other hand, we have Scriptures that imply God is responsible for evil (which is different from saying God allows evil). To make God responsible for evil would seem to negate God's goodness, love, and holiness. This is an incoherency that should not be taken lightly, even if it is ultimately beyond our comprehension. We don't want to bear witness to a God that is both good and evil, because that is not the Christian God. But, too often, that is the God we proclaim to the world, albeit unintentionally. Too often the Christian fall-back position when bad things happen is "Well, God's ways are mysterious..." We can't have it both ways -- claiming God is good when good things happen, but then claiming ignorance of God's ways when bad things happen. It's disingenuous.

I am surprised that Christianity Today ignored Hagee's latest book "In Defense of Israel" where John Hagee denies that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of Jews.

Hagee's dual covenant theology effectively denies the Christian faith.

Instead CT focuses on a mere political gaff.

Or, is CT as unaware of what is going on in Christianity as John McCain's political staff?

I am surprised that Christianity Today ignored Hagee's latest book "In Defense of Israel" where John Hagee denies that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of Jews.

Hagee's dual covenant theology effectively denies the Christian faith.

Instead CT focuses on a mere political gaff.

Or, is CT as unaware of what is going on in Christianity as John McCain's political staff?

This article appearing has some interesting timing for me. I just browsed and read the first part of Ehrman's latest book: "God's Problem." Having read a couple of his other books and articles, it was fascinating to see how captivated he has been, from childhood, with this "theodicy" question. Also, that apparently it is more significant than discrepancies in the Bible (as he's commented on also), or similar "authority and inspiration" issues as to why he is agnostic. I'd had the impression prior that it was mostly the non-scholarly who were dissuaded from Christian faith by this intractable problem. Indeed, for a conception of God as in tradtional theism and Christianity, the problem IS intractable.

I've found this is one reason, among MANY strong ones, to re-conceive God heavily toward the "immanent" side, even to panentheism. Evil and suffering are still tough to understand and integrate, but are much less a puzzle when "God" is mainly the omnipresent sustaining love and energy which envelops us all, probably through many human lifetimes, helping us gradually develop as spiritual beings. In this scenario, the earth, and perhaps other locales, will never cease to be places with much pain. Yet, the "new heavens and new earth" are still the glorious places we all are headed, as envisioned by many prophets.

It seems that the real problem with Theodicy is that there is an "i" left out between the o and the d, and an "o" left out between the i and the c.

"God does not die when we cease to believe in Him..."

Neither does God become what our finite minds imagine Him to be. Nor is He bound by our limited understanding of what we see or experience. Perhaps we should just take Him at His word--"My thoughts are higher than your thoughts and My ways are greater than your ways."

From the prophet Amos:

"Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid?
Does evil befall a city, unless the Lord has done it?"
Amos 3:6 RSV

There are times when I think that we become to sure of ourselves and our ability to know what God allows and what God's purpose is. We can generally know from Scripture that God wants for us to know Him. We can also know for clearly that God desires for us to be part of His kingdom and to invite others to be part of it as well. The opening article to this line of discussion calls to mind the nature of politicians to make grand statements about what they can or will do upon coming to office. Sadly, this process will likely become more and more voluminous in the coming weeks and months. What we do know for sure is that they desire to be president (although I sometimes wonder why anyone would want to do so.) What I believe we can know about God, in comparison to presidential contenders, is that God always tells the truth and is able to do as God promises. Somehow I do not believe that anything else in the world is that clear or honest. (Please excuse me for my skepticism.) I have come to trust God, but I cannot imagine that I will ever fully understand God.

Al

God does not cause evil to happen, because he is holy. To say that God wills evil is contrary to reason. Also, many portions of Scripture mention God's wrath aimed at evildoers. So if God allows evil to happen because he wants it to happen so that he can bring good out of it, then why would he get angry at evildoers, especially since he can bring good out of their actions? People can learn the lessons from the evil and cruelty other people do and thus bring good out of it. However, that does not mean that God caused it, much less that he wants it.

If theology is, as St. Anselm said, "faith seeking understanding," than perhaps theodicy is faith seeking understanding of the inexplicable. The attempt to explain every evil of this world as either the will of God or the result of human sin results in much bad theology. Either victims are blamed for their suffering -- as when a hurricane is viewed as punishment for a city's sins -- or God is viewed as acting "beyond good and evil" by willing the suffereing of innocents.

The truth is, we cannot answer the question of evil.

Job tries to get God to answer it, to tell him why he is made to suffer unjustly. God's answer is as clear as it is difficult to accept: "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand."(Job 38:4)

We were not there; we cannot understand. All we can do is accept and trust in God's goodness and love for us. Where thologoy fails, there is only faith.

It seems to me that many of these TV preachers need to watch their words. They know better. I hope this not the case, but my own conscious gets the better of me. Also many of these preachers like Hagee and Parsley are suspect on their theology. It is way out there. I hear a whole lot of returning the Jews back to Israel (dispensational theology) or plant your seed gift and you will get rich (prosperity gospel). This is what really upsets me about these guys. They are not the standard barriers even if they are the loudest or have a Television Program. There needs to be some more solid biblical teaching. I fear what might happen to some of these individuals. As a pastor I could not preach some of the crap they do. It is shameful and self serving. I pray that I am wrong, but again my conscious gets the better of me.

I have some experience with this on a personal level. Our youngest, a daughter, was diagnosed at age one-and-a-half with infantile autism. The doctors told us to put her into an institution because we could never have a successful life with her, she would never be a functioning adult. We were told that we would divorce because of her, if we tried to keep her.
We looked into the textbooks at Chico State University, and found that the "cause" of autism was thought to be "cold parents:" so this was our fault, even though our other two children were (are) high functioning "normal" children. One person at church said that we must be really close to God because He had entrusted us with a special child; I wanted to say that purhaps I needed to not be so close to God in the future. A second person asked us what horrid sin we had committed that God would "touch" one of our children with this horrid affliction! Thus began years of speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, and much prayer; and sleepless nights and recrimination, "what if I had (not) done" this or that.
Today this autistic girl has two college degrees, and is living on her own. She is paying her own rent, paying for her own car, and working as the secretary for the department of nursing chair at our local college. She is also engaged to be married. Of course I have left out many interesting stories, tales of woe and dispair and also of joy and gratitude.
Now, I said all of that so I could say this: I would not wish this terrible disaster on anyone. If I had to choose something different, I would have chosen for her to be "normal." What if God had let her be normal? God would not get the glory for His miraculous work in her life, there would be no tales of her overcoming, no tales of answered prayer, no loving concern from friends and family. Would God have recieved greater glory if she were normal? Or does God recieve greater glory because she was able to overcome?
When I asked my (adult) daughter if she wished she had grown up as a normal child rather than with this learning disability, she said that she would not be the person that she is if she were not autistic.
Would I deny God His greater glory? Never. On the other hand neither would I want to go through it again. Yet I praise God for His love and mercy, grace and power, as He showed it through our daughter!

I was born with a nasty little genetic time bomb in me, set to go off, in a very sneaky, underhanded way, in my early Forties. Evolution adequately explains it. I'm just unlucky to have a genetic disease that persists because it strikes after the usual reproductive age, instead of before or during reproductive age. Fortunately, as I've never had children, the gene stops with me.

But, theodicy suggests that I might have been born with a punishment for my future, horrible sins (though I can't think of what I've done to deserve that), or that I'm being punished for the horrible sins of my ancestors (of which I know not, and have no control over. Hardly sounds fair.).

Fortunately, Nobel prize research somewhat defused it, but there is no cure, and here I am...at 57, getting along OK, thank you, but kind of sickly, with a kind of sickly income.

So, if God is my intelligent designer, as some religious insist, where do I go to file suit for damages? After all, if there is one thing an intelligent designing God and I have in common, it's that we w are both be intelligent designers, though I'm not in the deity class. Thank you again. If I put out a design that harms people, I would get sued for damages, and rightfully so.

One of my favorite little things, I read from a murder mystery. If memory serves, the protagonist is musing on God, and remember a medieval rabbi's observation. "If I could know God, I would BE God." As I don't want to be God, and God apparently doesn't want me to be God, according to the Bible, I therefore don't want to actually know God, right? So...I can't know theodicy?

What did Augustine mean when he said "evil is the privation of good"? He meant "evil is the absence of God." Hence the disordered states that we human beings would refer to as “evil” would fall under the categories of “normal,” “natural,” “derivative” and “default.” What does this mean? It just means that the removal of local “evil” doesn’t necessarily result in local “good” -- the vacuum left by removal will naturally get filled with more of the same “evil” that was and is the default. In order to obtain “good,” the vacuum left by the removal of “evil” must be preemptively filled by [the Spirit of] God, as happens in Christian baptism. In a sense, Augustine is saying mere divestiture [of evil] isn’t enough -- it has to be followed by investiture [of good]. It’s not enough to divest the world of “evil” -- it must also be invested of good [God], and only Jesus Christ can do that. Try to look at it rationally and scientifically as Augustine would have: In the universe at large the greater order of change is moving away from less probable states (life, structure, complexity) toward more probable states (non-life, de-struction, simplicity). Scientists call it “increasing entropy.” What does this mean? It means that such things as violence, reduction, destruction, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc. are “normal,” “default” and "natural" occurrences that can only be restrained by the local “intervention” (or as C.S. Lewis might have said, the local “interference”) of God. So the dynamic of the permissiveness of God ends up doing exactly what He wants it to do -- draw us neigh unto Himself. God doesn’t rule out “evil,” but He most certainly can restrain it! All we have to do is ask Him, according to His own Word, spelled out in His own covenant of Faith. What then? Could God have interfered in the normal course of events to restrain/mitigate the earthquake in China? You bet! Problem is, China didn’t ask Him!

I'm no Bible scholar, but I seem to remember Jesus saying, "It's a wicked and selfish generation that looks for signs" quite a bit. And I know many of my Jewish friends are highly skeptical of Hagee. Anyone who believes Hitler was sent by God and is also trying to personally hasten the coming of the end of the world as a means of his own personal salvation...well, it speaks for itself.

Greg, I don't know too much, but I do know that I was once in a very dark place in my life, depressed, suicidal and without hope. Nightmares every night, no peace during the day. But thank God I had enough sense left to cry out to Jesus; and he heard me and he brought me out of that dark dark place. I'm grateful to Him and no one can tell me that it wasn't Jesus that did it. No one. Knowing someone and understanding someone are 2 different things. I know my wife but I don't understand absolutely everything about her. She's her own person; I trust her. Christianity is not theology or theodicy, it's knowing God personally thru his son, Jesus Christ. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me." Jn 14:6 Call on Jesus. There's no other way to know God, or to have the ability to even begin to understand Him. Something you might relate to... John 9:1-38

While Hagee is technically correct about Hitler, God had nothing to do with that nasty man. Satan was the prime operative, and God merely mercifully helped them back to their homeland. The Jews themselves admit that many massive influxes of immigrants are caused by persecution and pograms, past and present. I steer away from Hagee, as he is part of the "name it, claim it" group, and that practice is not really Biblical at all, but a misinterpretation of Scripture. Also, as brought out Hagee's dual covenant "theory/teaching" is far from Biblical, and does deny the faith. Stay clear of that person. Jesus is now calling back the Jews to himself in record numbers (estimated 500,000 within the past 38 years).

Agape & Shalom,

Pete

Add these comments to Hagee's anti-Catholic statements and these are the reasons I'm glad the evangelical grip on the Republican party is breaking up. Too many yahoos and not enouogh sages.

No possible good can ever come from referencing or quoting Hitler for any reason by anyone. The average reader will never get past that road block to hear your argument. Now, back to the subject, um, what was the subject again?

Does God's beauty shine brighter within the framework of evil? Does God allow people to enter into sin so they can find him more easily? Why did God allow a harmful tree to grow in paradise, the place where he placed his creation that he loved? These questions are all part of the "slippery slope" school of religeous philosophy and must be examined with great caution. I have struggled with the answer to these questions for many years. However I am sure of one thing, If Eve would have offered me the apple I most likely would have eaten the whole thing and not just taken one bite.

One other problem with Hagee's comments besides the infelicitous choice of Hitler as an example and the palpable lack of awe and reverence due our Creator is this statement: "Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel." Does Hagee now know the mind of God? How dare he presume to understand and wax about why or why not God did something? Not much fear of the Lord here! Perhaps Hagee should read Job to understand the Lord's feelings towards those who presumed to explain the reasons behind God's actions to Job (i.e., his friends) Doesn't Hagee know that unless the Lord reveals his plans and purposes it is not our place to presume to know.

I differ in my understanding of Jeremiahs hunters. They are ARCHAEOLOGISTS who trace to footsteps of natural Israel (see the writtings of Jewish Historian YAIR DAVIDY www.britam.org.

Communism was the same tool used by God because the Russian Orthodox Church refused a move of the Holy spirit. Those Christians attuned to the voice of the Holy Spirit were guided out before the Communist Revolution took place.

There was a move prior to Hitler for the Jews to return to the Holy Land but many did not want to leave the good life in Germany.

The truth is that Gods people are (oft-time)disobedient (Ezekiel chpt 2). If His people don't obey, then God is not apposed in letting a less desirable form of motivation (Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.) I think Brad Greenbergs message was for more mature ears.

Some other disturbing scripture.

Deuteronomy 32:19-43
Jeremiah 8:17
Revelation 13:17

As far as I know, John Hagee doesn't represent all that many evangelicals. Most of the evangelicals I know have ever heard of him (and I know a LOT of evangelicals). I don't think it will be an issue either way for McCain, nor will it change the way evangelicals as a whole vote. It's just not that big of a deal.

Thanks for your concern, David. Fortunately for me, I'm not much given to severe depression...I don't think I've ever experienced such a frightening mental abyss. I sometimes feel a little melancholy and occasionally throw a little pity party, but I know they pass, and knowing that makes them pass even quicker. Most every day brings something interesting...like the latest issue of Scientific American that I just got. I always wake up wanting a new day...even if I go back to bed.

I'm not all that spiritually deep, I guess, maybe spiritual feelings got zapped with the disease; it's left me with sort of mile brain trauma, nothing serious, a little ditzy and ADD, but experiencing God, Jesus, the Bible in questions and sociological theory, as I do, more or less, is always interesting, valuable and even sometimes uplifting...and sometimes disconcerted, with contradictory thoughts to mull over..

I am glad that Jesus gave you strength and hope to get you through your trial, in how ever way you experienced Jesus. I have a relative with bi-polar disease, very scary in her depressive episodes. She also found refuge and strength in Jesus, strength to seek out, stay with and get effective treatment. She's adequately happy, and not manic about it, at last.

While she's separated from her husband...one of those complicated love them dearly, but can't live with them things...I worry that his probably terminal cancer could throw her back into a depressive episode beyond the usual worry and mourning...so pray for them both, please, as we all are. Fortunately, he's being cared for by their son, a moderately successful professional man with some resources and a close knit community to help him.

Basically, if one tries that Golden Rule thing in a comprehensive manner, knowing that there will sometimes be interestingly impossible contradictions to mull over...or even thinks, now and then, about what the Golden Rule might mean; one's religion, or lack of it, is fine by me. One has gotten the Good News and is following God's will, as I understand it anyway, even if one doesn't know it.

I like David Gonzalez and Sandra Lee's comments.
In addition, I like Leslie Weatherhead's idea of God's INTENTIONAL WILL, His PERMISSIVE WILL and His ULTIMATE WILL, which, for me, makes room for man's evil choices, natural or other calamities as well as God's sovereignty.

CJW

I daresay that Rev. Hagee is far more fundamentally Biblically based than is Christianity Today and many of those offerring comments. While commenters are quite interesting and sometimes theologically correct, it seems that they’re so far off track that it’s doubtful they could lead someone to salvation in Christ. With the complexities of this age, we need more focus on basics. It’s no wonder kids are confused. Or rather, perhaps it’s the bloggers and article writers with whom we should take issue.

God does not sanction evil. But he allows it to happen while Satan is still here on earth.

I haven’t yet read In Defense of Israel. I’ve heard criticism of Rev. Hagee on the dual covenant theory, which theory does concern me. I have read an article where Rev. Hagee disputes the dual covenant theory and stated that was incorrect, that one comes to God only through Jesus.

Rev. Hagee’s true reasons for supporting Israel are that the Bible commands it, God created the the Hebrew nation to make it a Messianic nation so the entire world would be blessed, and Rev. Hagee wants to ensure that no Jews miss out on heaven and eternal life with our Lord. Regardless of when Christ returns, those to whom He is Savior and Lord are absolutely assured of heaven. Our salvation has nothing to do with the Jewish diaspora returning home to Israel, as wonderful as that is.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Is 47:7

My bible does not say that God creates evil in Is 47:7 OR ANY OTHER SCRIPTURE. Don't you check these scriptures before accepting them as biblical???

I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO ACCEPT THAT WE CAN'T EVEN PUT WORDS TO DESCRIBE GOD'S WAYS WHEN IT COMES TO HIM BRINGING ABOUT HIS PERFECT WILL AND PLANS FOR MANKIND.
I ALSO THINK THAT WE SHOULD LEAVE THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS EVIL UP TO GOD TO DEFINE AND DEAL WITH. WE CAN ONLY DEFINE EVIL IN OUR REALM OF EXPERIENCE. I THINK GOD KNOWS MORE THAT WE DO...!
HE HAS SAID THAT HE SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY SON...ETC. ISN'T THAT ENOUGH? I GUESS WE WASTE A LOT OF TIME NOT IN FAITH AND NOT TRUSTING WHAT WE DO KNOW ABOUT GOD.
WE NEED TO BE SEEKING TO KNOW HIM FURTHER THROUGH A TRULY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP AND SIMPLY LETTING HIM REVEAL DEEPER WHAT HE ALREADY DID REVEAL TO US ABOUT HIS LOVE (IN THE WHOLE OF HIS LOVE BOOK TO US). IF WE COULD READ HIS WORD WITH TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS LOVE AS WE READ IT, MAYBE WE COULD KNOW HIM DEEPER. IT IS HE WHO IS GOD, NOT WE. DO WE NEED GOD OR DON'T WE? LOVE HIM, REST IN HIM, JOY IN HIM! DO WHAT CHRIST SAID TO DO. LET GOD WORK THROUGH OUR MINDS AND HEARTS AND BODIES TO HELP OTHERS LIVE AS JESUS DID.

I don't always agree with Hagee but in Habakkuk chapter one God brings the Chaldeans (the Hilter like bad guys of those days) to come and do His bidding to bring judgement against Israel. The Chaldeans were more unrighteous than Israel and God gave both nations opportunities to repent!!!

Dwight