Comments

I'm just one local pastor, but I am asking all of the evangelical "heavyweights" to put aside their pride, their organizational agendas, and their presuppositions and listen very carefully to each other.

If they do not, I'm afraid this will divide American evangelicalism.

I expect Dobson, Perkins, et. al. to be rather offended by the language that is already suggested by this "Manifesto" (as well as the fact of being excluded from behind-the-scenes consultation), but as a very conservative evangelical pastor, I am begging that they seriously grapple with what looks like nationalistic idolatry (and post-Constantinian "Christianity") from where I sit. Please, please, please understand how awkward a position that puts some of us in when we read 1 Cor. 5:11. I hope they can begin to understand that the harder they try, the behinder we all seem to get. I understand that the Republican/Supreme Court carrot seems always to be within reach, but there are reasons it hasn't been tasted for 30 years, and yes, the hurtful term, "useful idiot," has applied to me during most of that time.

I had two opportunities within the past 5 years to talk to someone very intimately connected with James Dobson. I shared my concerns, and he said, "Jim doesn't listen to anyone."

I think it's time for all evangelicals to stop talking to the world regarding public policy (yes, please, a total moratorium) and start listening to each other, else there is a huge trainwreck just ahead.

Incidentally, in case someone thinks I'm carrying a flag for another evangelical leader, I am certainly not a supporter of Wallis, McLaren, or even Warren. I think they all have some valid things to say (including Dobson), but I'm still going to stick with what Jesus said as my gold standard.

>> According to the AP, drafters say evangelicals have often expressed "truth without love."

But to some of the drafters of this document, it seems "truth without loves" means primarily the mere denounciation by the orthordox - of Biblically sinful lifestyles that they (the drafters) would like to see mainstreamed in the Christian community.

I will be interested in seeing the document when it's made public on Wednesday. It seems like evangelicals are all too interested in signing things and few are actually doing anything to support the signatures.

Bruce,
It's pretty disingenuous to play the "alternate lifestyles" card. Just because it applies in that case doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a broader problem. I, for one, would like the nonreligious people I meet to stop assuming that just because I'm a Christian, I'm a moralizing jerk with a conservative axe to grind. I'd also like people to stop assuming that Christianity is just a collection of poorly-argued moral rules and and simplistic stories.

It’s a different kind of culture now and the manifesto is simply trying to address this change. People question beliefs and assumptions and hold them up to reality. The fact a preacher or other Christian authority figure (such as Mr. Dobson) says we have to think and vote a certain way means very little to most people. I think this is a healthy change-your faith and values should be able to be scrutinized and examined. If it doesn’t hold up-it should be discarded. And people should be able to defend their faith in ways other than saying, “God Says It, I Believe It…and That Settles It”.
The general public has a good basic idea of how Jesus is portrayed in the bible-he is a peacemaker and teaches us to love our enemies and treat our neighbors as we would like to be treated. Bruce, when people see in the media that evangelicals overwhelming continue to support the occupation of Iraq and right-wing politicians generally and very few ministers have the courage to dispel idea from their pulpits, christians will continue to be seen as moralizing jerks.The manifesto is a step in the right direction

I like this quote:

Phil Burress, an Ohio activist who networks with national evangelical leaders, said that if high-profile evangelical leaders such as Dobson and Land don't support the document, "it's like throwing a pebble in the ocean" and will carry no weight.

Thus, without Dobson, God is completely handicapped. I guess God is really thankful to Dobson for making His work on earth easier.

I'm amazed that so many can have such strong opinions when we've not even seen the written document. Perhaps all those strong opinions confirm Paul's concern that we all really need to start listening to one another instead of attacking each other.

Richard Mouw and Os Guiness are fine thinkers and godly men. Their names on the document certainly give the document validity in my mind. I'll look forward to reading it.

I struggle with finding the right place to be on this particular continuum. The recent discussion I saw between Greg Boyd and Chuck Colson was very interesting in this regard. I respect both men tremendously but find myself more in Boyd's camp (that the Kingdom of God has nothing to do with politics). I do understand Colson's position also, however, when you look at people like William Wilberforce and the issue of slavery. It is a very complex topic but I do worry that Christians in the United States are way too politicized at this point in time.

I'm not aware of Jesus ever getting involved in the politics of His day, yet He had the most profound impact on human culture of any person who ever lived. The culture and government of Jesus' day were as corrupt and violent as any today, yet He never led an insurrection or organized a political movement to instigate change.
He obeyed the Father, even unto to the cross. And Jesus' acts of obedience became the fulcrum around which all time and eternity turn. As Christians, we are called to follow Him.

And I'd appreciate it if "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" would cease operations. It's disingenous, it has promoted fuzzy ecumenism, the authors have misrepresented the doctrinal stances of Catholics, and is involved in public policy, rather than trying to change mind and hearts in the various confessions.

LET:S JUST READ IT and

COMMENT AFTER PENTECOST

Les

In America, it's OK for ANYONE to be involved in the political realms of society. We all bring our belief systems with us.
You cannot separate your relationship with God and worldview/philosophy from the other elements of life. Politics, work, family, religion, and other elements all flow from who you are and what you believe.
The American political conversation is enhanced when individuals speak out, share, and defend their positions/convictions (which are all based on some manner of faith).
Stop dissuading folks from getting involved in politics and the political conversation. There are only 2 major political parties in this country, so most people are going to migrate to one "side". And that's OK.

I'm usually on the opposite side, but participation in politics is the birthright of every American and while I enjoy the pleasant fantasy of seeing Dobson being carted off to Guantanamo Bay, the truth is that it is a tragedy when any voice is stilled for fear of what the opposition may think of the speaker.

"...Truth without love..." My jaundiced observation is that evangelicals, in general, are more into "truthiness." Look at all the anti-evolution as proof of my observation...or is that "proofiness" on my part?

I thoroughly read this manifesto on the official website, and...
Apparently, it's okay for the drafters of "An Evangelical Manifesto" to publicly deliver a huge, all-encompassing political-religious-spiritual-social statement, but the rest of us Christians are not qualified or called to act on our convictions. What are these old-school white men really afraid of?

JR, I'm not one of the signers, but let me take a stab...

1. They may be afraid that many American evangelicals regard the teachings of Jesus about loving our enemies as irrelevant, as we worship the Goddess of Liberty and sacrifice our sons and daughters for her, violating even just war theory in the process.
2. They may be afraid that we stretch the teachings of Jesus on paying taxes ("render unto Caesar") to actually support waterboarding in support of our nationalistic idolatry.
3. They may be afraid that evangelicals have adopted a Roman Catholic/Constantinian/Crusading view of church and state, violating our historic commitment to pre-Constantinian Christianity. Remember Roger Williams!!
4. They may be afraid that we have bought into the half-truths of David Barton.
5. They may be afraid that if America's present warmongering bankrupts the nation, that American evangelicals will be surely blamed, just as Germany's Jews were blamed for leading the nation into WWI.
6. They may be afraid that American Christian conservatives have adopted the liberal lie that right structures (i.e., democracy) always bring right results, since people are basically good and just want the same things as we want.
7. They may be afraid that American evangelicals will see America as a good and Godly nation, no matter how many unjust wars we start and no matter how many tens of millions of unborn children we slaughter.
8. Last, they may be afraid that we are alienating the harvest Jesus died for because of issues other than the cross. We have lost the idea that we are resident aliens attempting to love and reach those in bondage. Being angry at the harvest is the exact opposite of evangelicalism.

I'll stop there, lest this post be denied.:)

The term "evangelical" itself can be a problem for your missionaries overseas, especially here in Europe. As we stand for the gospel, we stand as well for our historic indentity as evangelicals. We will continue to do so. We do need help, however, with the message and the image which "evangelical" has been receiving here from America. It is not always a gospel message of atonement love, and it is not clearly a reflection of the Person of Jesus Christ. It is most often a political message and a partisan image. For many it becomes one more barrier to listening and hearing the gospel of salvation and sanctification. The drums beats and trumpet sounds from America are heard around the world.

Conversations in time of war and the Chrisitian faith is a challenge to grow in our Chrisitian practice and awareness. Hope we can all learn from one another.