Comments

That is a very difficult situation. I could understand it if the decision was made either way and will trust that the band is following what they feel the Lord would have them do.

A person's struggles with faith - even loss of it - doesn't reduce their talent or ability to do good. They are still made in God's image, even if they no longer believe that. Many of my favorite writers and musicians are not Christians, but their art still points to the beautiful, good, and true, which is ultimately fulfilled in Christ. One prays that they will come to see the same.

I would consider the following as benchmark questions for expulsion:

a) has the musician not only repudiated his faith but plunged into a lifestyle compatible with the secular hardcore scene? in that case, he would certainly we working against the values the band is trying to promote, and it would both be inappropriate and illogical to permit him to remain in the band.

b) is the musician, despite his loss of faith, still willing to play the same message that the band continues to play? if so, i don't see why his remaining in the band would be harmful.

i can't help thinking of the reverse of this situation, because U2's Rattle and Hum was on TV two weeks ago. here, at a time when the only Christian in the band was Bono, i witnessed his bandmates fully supportive of his songs, rocking out, and having a great time while Bono preached the gospel singing "Pride in the Name of Love". Bono is no longer the only Christian member of U2...but look at what a little healthy respect for a friend accomplished, not only for the band members as people but for millions more.

if the guitar player is not out to sabotage what the band has so carefully created....why do this?

IMHO, any band that calls itself Christian and plays music with a style like "death metal" or "punk" or "rap" should seriously examine their own spiritual condition. I have seen many youth raised in loving Christian families backslide into the world's music and into immorality and drug/alcohol abuse after listening to and refusing to throw away this so-called "Christian music! Not to mention seeing the tears of their heartbroken parents. These "musicians" should all repent and seek God's will, not their own. They are not called of God to do this. God has something much better!

And no I am not a fundamental Baptist. I was a victim of this music in the 80's and 90's and have been down that dead end road.

The solution is actually easier than the article seems to present. if we agree that a Christian band is a ministry. it is clear from scripture that a self declared apostate has no business "ministering" in that band since ministry is for believers only... doing otherwise turns the whole thing into a mockery of God (why would someone endorse songs with a message that is fundamentally opposed to the new found (dis)belief)? If Christ brought them together, the rejection of Christ should rightly make the apostate leave

This is not to say that the band members cannot privately minister to him with love and seek to bring him back (or witness to him since there is a possibility that the fellow was not saved in the first place).

We need to stop having a human centered Christianity and think first about the individual. It is first about God and what He says.
Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

including him in the band will not result in a worship pleasing to God and as such makes it a non-starter.

No offense, Brad, but I have trouble believing you are God's mouthpiece on this issue. Just because you were a "victim" of rock music (not sure how that works exactly) is not a reason to assume that you have the ability to discern God's calling for everyone else. Yes, rock music has its problems. As does every area of life. I just get really tired of people who want to blame a particular style or genre of music for all the problems of today's "youth." As if rebellion, creativity, dumb mistakes, experimenting, and high energy expression - the good and the bad - didn't exist before rock music. Argh.

Brad has some points, but as an Artist, I really have to point out that all of creation exists for God's glory; and quite frankly every genre of expression has a story to tell in a language that is unique. Aggressive music is not unchristian by the fact is aggressive. There is much darkness in our world, and indeed within us, that other genres of expression do not have the language to explore. Most of the Christian metalcore I listened to in high school centered on sin and redemption, or anger at ones self for sin, calling out of hypocrisies, etc. These are a facet of God's nature.

I'm sorry for anyone to backslide into drug and alcohol abuse, and I'm sure that such a transition would grieve any artist behind any work that is seen to be the cause, Christian or not.

Kyle

ww.skillfulproductions.com

IMHO, any band that calls itself Christian and plays music with a style like "death metal" or "punk" or "rap" should seriously examine their own spiritual condition.

Brad, that's exactly the point of the article. The band carefully examined their spiritual condition and decided that everyone in the band needed to affirm Christ. It's ironic that you then condemn them and claim to know what God has for them. I imagine He will reward them for their desire to keep their band pure in faith. I have never seem them play, but I now look forward to seeing them on Saturday.

Here is the deal...

There is a difference between being Christians in a band and being in a Christian band. Both are fine, but each side has their reasons and convictions... Thus, HTD made the choice they felt best defined their mission and or calling. They obviously felt right in their decision, thus they likely choose to be better defined as a Christian band and with that said, good decision...

doulos,

drew

I disagree with Brad. You can't blame any style of music for someone walking away from God. The Bible does not say anything about what kind of music Christians "should" listen to. How does one define "Christian" and the "world's" music? Once you label a specific style "unChristian" (and it's easy to expand this to books, movies, TV) then you're focusing on the outward appearances, and not on matters of the heart. Now, if music (or books, TV, etc) is filled with violence, inappropriate language then that's a reason to avoid it. But the "style" isn't evil. Much of secular "pop" music with a style palatable to Christians is filled with references to sexual immorality.

Several interesting opinions here today. I was a lead singer in a local group in my little community in the 70's...living the lifestyle that went along with the hard rock we were performing on weekends. After a few years, God pulled me out of that scene and back to Him. "Christian Rock" didn't exist yet outside of Larry Norman and Petra..neither of which could truly be called rock music. Rock music by its very nature is rebellion against the status quo. What evolved over the years from Norman's "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music" was the creation of groups like Stryper and others. Look, musicians have to decide what they are trying to convey with their art. If you are "preaching" the Gospel with your music...it seems to be counterproductive to use foul language to do so (see the PEDRO reference above). 1st Cor. 16.14 says to do everything in love. I fear that much of what is promoted as "Christian Rock" these days is not as much about building up God as it is about pop fame and money. The simple answer to the bands issue is...if they are a "Christian" band preaching the gospel, then they all need to be Christians or it is a house divided against itself. How does a fan deal with Mr. Barnes when he says he no longer believes in the the very reason the band exists?

I cannot help but wonder what the church's reaction was to the Wesley brother's bringing bar tunes into the church introducing a new style of musio. Those are the same songs now called hymns. So, following Brad's logic, because of their original surroundings, should we dump all old hymns because of their evil background? God has a unilque way of making all things new--I for one am very thankful for that.

It is important to treat people of little faith gently. As for style of music, it is the same as eating and drinking - nothing is harmful if you have the faith and good conscience, but, it is important not to offend people whose faith is weaker. And so if rock music offends your brother or sister then do not play it. We all need to show more grace towards each other, remembering that our greatest commandments are to love God and one-another. Too often we want to hammer each other with the intellectual truth without showing grace. This completely misses the point. Our faith is given to us to free us, not to commit each other to carrying burdens.

Brad,

It hurts to see the judgemental presumption that something is wrong with the artists lives if they are in the genres you mention. I speak on behalf of the friends I have that play music in these genres, please, don't judge until you see the lifestyle in action. If you are offended by the ministry, then is it possible that maybe you too have areas of your life that need to be made right with God?

I challenge you to go to concerts and hang out with these guys/gals you claim need to get their lives straight with God. Ask them tough questions. Ask them why they make their livleyhood through music. None of them will tell you they do it for money. Spend time with them after shows, listen to what they hear from kids, watch them pray with those very kids, then tell me they aren't right with God. Heck, ask the kids about the difference in the music you condemn. Better yet, minister along with them to the very kids that are hurting, just like you claim you were victimized by (not your choice obviously).

And what music is right? Even those in Pop, Country and Adult Contemporary screw up and fall away. Do they need to get their lives right too? Just a thought, if all have sinned, doesn't this mean all? Pastors, evangelists, musicians, cooks, janitors, board members....ALL.

In closing, please research these artists: Man of War, Manafest, T-Bone, Skillet, Seventh Day Slumber, Showbread, Haste the Day (again) and Demon Hunter. None of these bands/artists are perfect, but all are doing what God has called them to do. If these bands are wrong ministering to kids needing God, and reaching these kids where they are and who they are, then I pray I can join them in being wrong. Hopefully, this also challenges you to analyze your ministry to those not saved.

Continue to love on these people. That's the only way they will come back to Christ. If they see Him in you. My wife left me primarily due to my being a poor husband, secondly, due to her lost of faith in Jesus Christ being the only way. There is no other way to win her soul back than showing her Christ's love.

Thank you for your expected responses.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17

So after being challenged by this scripture to put away the old lifestyle and start a new life in Christ, I should just instead pick up my electric guitar again, start a Christian heavy metal band again, fill my iPod with Black Sabbath, Dio, and other secular heavy metal bands to help influence my musical style. (for ministry of course!) Play loud and fast on stage and enjoy that adrenaline rush of screaming girls and young guys praising my skills and asking me how they can become a rock star for Jesus too?

Sorry, but I am a new creature in Christ with 3 beautiful young daughters of whom I will fight to the death to protect from the "Christian" lifestyle I had in the 80's and 90's. You can all judge me and condemn me but I've been there and I know what these musicians are experiencing.

Please turn to Christ

Brad,
You have an iPod?
You pagan!

.

The apostles lost faith all throughout Christ's ministery in earth, and even in the days before his ressurection, but in the end when they saw him no one could reject him, it will be like that in the end when every knee will bow huh?? So did christ decide not to come back since his apostles where so unbelieving?? No, and thank God.

Hi Brad, so, let me get this straight -- you were in a "Christian heavy metal band" in the 80's and 90's, before you became a Christian? That sounds like an interesting story, and would certainly explain why you are so disenchanted with Christian rock music. But your use of the 2 Cor. 5 verse seems misplaced to me: "old things" is referring NOT to patterns of behavior that should be avoided, but past patterns of behavior that are no longer held against people, because a new life in Christ is a source of reconciliation (Read all of 5:11-20).

Besides, even if there are "old" patterns of behavior that should be avoided (and I agree there are), there is no reason to think that those patterns are exactly the same for every Christian. For example, I've known several people who have talked about how corrupt and sinful the classical music world can be. I can see how someone who lived a sinful life as a classical musician might be convicted to leave that life behind when they follow Christ. But I don't think it would make sense for them to say that, because of their experience, every other Christian should stop listening to classical music, or performing in orchestras. You're making a similar argument with rock music, and I don't think it works.

Anyway, God bless you and your family. Sorry if my initial comment sounded harsh.

Geoff

Brad, Brad, Brad... you are assuming the position of God when you have no idea what is in the minds of anyone other than yourself. Do you realize how arrogant that is? You have a problem with a particular kind of music? Don't listen to it. You are not the judge of anyone but yourself. You are not the Holy Spirit.

Brad,

Again, I apologize if the music industy (of which I am a part of and have friends who create the music) has offended you. Yes, the old is gone, the new has come. And yes, going straight back to a lifestyle where sin is predominant isn't what God calls us to do.

So, what happens then, when someone has never been involved in music gets called into music? What happens when someone leaves music to become new and then God calls them back 10 years later to create music to glorify Him? Is this wrong?

I will agree, life on the road isn't glamorous or easy. Temptations are many. Yet, there are many bands who have a tour pastor travel with them. Does that mean the pastor is one who now lives in sin simply because he is on the road with the band?

I'll challenge you again, research some of these bands that you cast stones at. Go to their shows and watch how they minister to kids. (Indeed, not all bands will minister much, if at all, for that, I would say they are Christians in a band. Not wrong, but not worth casting stones either.) Watch them pray with kids. Listen to them share their hearts from the stage. Then, if you still feel it appropriate, cast the stones.

In closing, I'm sorry you were led astray in the 80's. I hate the fact that this has scarred you and created negative vivid images. And, in that regard, I pray you forgive those that contributed to this leading astray. Please, don't shelter you daughters from music that could postively shelter their lives. My kids (both 9 and 7 respectively) regularly attend Christian concerts, dine with those performing and even share their rooms at home with these same artists. I'm glad they get to see the ministry of these guys/gals. May you have this same opportunity for your girls.

Feel free to let me know what you find in your research of the bands I've suggested above. Email me at aaron.PTEnt@gmail.com and I would love to answer any question you may have of me and my thoughts regarding this topic.

Blessings,

Aaron Owner/Agent/Manager
Passing Thru Entertainment, LLC
www.passingthruent.com

“After several months of reading literature and talking with friends, Jason had determined that he felt there was no God and certainly no Jesus,” the group revealed.

I found this news item just plain sad. Yet when checking out the band's myspace page firsthand, I see this comment:
"I'll pray for you, Jason."

I don't see that in this discussion. Just more arguing about musical styles. Pathetic, really. This is about one young man and his loss of faith, and the disconnect that followed with a bunch of guys he probably knew and worked with for a long, long time.

Jason, I'll pray for you also.

To answer the initial question posed by the author of this article, I don't think there is a single answer that covers every situation- but it's well worth discussion.

I have actively participated in the 'hardcore' scene both as a fan and as a promoter and I think that the affect the atheistic member has on the band itself is far more of the cause of the expulsion of Jason Barnes.

The days of rock stars are long gone, especially in underground genre's such as metalcore. These guys live out of a van, many for 300 days a year sleeping on people's couches, floors and often parking lots. They don't get a lot of Christian fellowship nor spiritual encouragement. At shows they are held up by kids as idols, being far more concerned with getting an autograph than ministering to the band. And that's not even discussing how poor they are.

As recently as last year I paid a band $80 for the evening's set and watched them on MTV's Headbanger's Ball that weekend. These guys aren't making a whole lot of money out there.

All of that basically to say that these guys have a hard enough time staying faithful when everything goes well- when you watch your best friend/ band mate becomes the antithesis of everything your music stands for, that just seems extraordinarily hard to endure.

My question is why did they have to out Jason Barnes instead of just changing up members quietly? That part strikes me as rather shady.

As another post regarding the style of music, please keep in mind, that the style of music really has little to do with the message of the music. My husband and I are fundamental conservative Christians, but we allow our oldest (and will our younger 2 also) to listen to any style of music. He has to justify the lyrics and make sure that they glorify God. If not, then it is not appropriate. One of the bands I have been most impressed with is Disciple. Another is UnderOath. These bands both not only have very Biblical lyrics, but give a message at their concerts to bring young people to a saving knowledge of God.

Haste the Day is prayerfully seeking God in their actions. They are also trying to model to many people how Christians are supposed to act. Whether or not we agree with how they handle it, they are seeking God's will and not their own. My son is disappointed in what has happened, but his first response was that they did the right thing.

>You have an iPod? You pagan!

Yeah, and it is full of John Michael Talbot, Keith Green, Maranatha Singers, Vineyard Worship, Bob Fitts, Catholic worship, Classical guitar music, and some beautiful worship from here in Sweden where I live with my Swedish wife and our daughters. They like this music too cause it brings a "peaceful spirit" into our family but cry if they hear any heavy metal of any sort out in public. Keith Green is my favorite as you can probably tell by my "judgmental" testimony and opinion!

>you were in a "Christian heavy metal band" in the 80's and 90's, before you became a Christian?

Well, at least I thought I was a Christian at the time. But like most other Christian musicians I still listened to the old heavy metal stuff I was raised on in the 70's and enjoyed the 80's metal since it "inspired" me. Plus the pot smoking helped me relax and "draw closer to God". Nobody said anything thru fear of judging me so I played at Christian concerts stoned most of the time cause it helped me get into the music. After all I was saved by grace they told me!

I am surprised that I receive the same type of defending responses from people claiming to be Christians when it comes to defending this style of music as when I try to convince "Christian" homosexuals that they are wrong and must change, not continue in their sins. Isn't that why Jesus died? To save us from our sins. Mary Magdalene did not continue to be a prostitute I am sure. Paul did not continue to persecute and kill Christians. They changed. And that is the Jesus I desire to serve and obey. The Jesus that changes people. Out with the old, in with the new!

Thanks guys for the debate. Visit our non-denominational ministry at jesusnet.org. 90% of all profits from internet services go to mercycorps.org to feed the poor and provide disaster relief. Or you can buy them from GoDaddy.com and help Bob Parsons create more ungodly Super Bowl commercials!

I would just like to add that I truly believe Jason Barnes will find God thru all of this.

> I noticed that several of the singers you mention would be considered Christian rock performers..>My view is we need to listen to the lyrics as well as the lifestyle of the performer..

Amen, This is my main argument against Christian heavy metal...It is very hard to hear the lyrics! Yes, Keith Green is trashed by Fundamental Baptists as the one who started the whole Christian Rock mess. But...you can hear his lyrics clearly, the message points to repentance and give glory to Christ, and his lifestyle was one of a changed person after meeting Christ. JMT also, songs that are almost entirely pure scripture that you can hear. No loud guitars and screaming into mics drowning out any message that might be there! Calling the listener to a closer walk with Christ and a humble, meek lifestyle.

When I played in a Christian Rock Band I was rebuked several times by our pastor to turn it down so the lyrics could come out. Unfortunately this was a problem because my guitar and the nature of the music itself needed to be loud to attract the unsaved!
It just didn't work for our style. (Also contributed to the tinnitus I suffer from now as a result of years of loud music.) I prefer the quiet stuff as does my family now. Refreshes the soul when the crystal clear scripture filled lyrics wash the garbage out!

God Bless.

This will most likely be a defining moment for this band. Being a Christian band you have a responsibility to your fans, old and those to come, to live your faith. So making this decision as hard as it is has to be made. Now the fans have a responsibility to pray for Jason and the rest of the band, that God's glory shine forth. For that is truly what all Christians are called to live, for God's glory.
I have to add that Brad wrote what he has come to feel. He has his points and all should see that. Music is very personal for many people it has the power to influence and some music no matter what the words say can bring about the wrong kinds of feelings, Anger, hate, etc.. I like to sing so I hear the words most, but my husband being a guitar player hears the actual music behind the words most, so just having christian lyrics does not really make you a christian band it has to be the whole make up, the music, the words, the performance, the musicians, etc... The band as a whole has a responsibility just like famous athletes and other types of mentors. So we all need to make sure what we listen too brings glory to God. Just as Christian Bands need to make sure what they create brings glory to God. And each needs to judge themselves instead of each other.

I have been a Christian for around 30 years now, so I know a thing or two. I've been to hell and back on innumerable occasions. This is what I've learned. While being into Jesus has its merits, you learn you're a Christian, as one gal put it, not when you think you're into Jesus, but when you realize Jesus is into you.

I am NOT a Christian because I refuse to leave Jesus. If that were the case, I'd be an atheist. I am a Christian because Jesus won't let me go. I've known and now know people who left Jesus. They were churchgoers who all sincerely believed and "Played the game." But when you seriously do some soul seeking, will you find the Lord inside? If not, then you're not His.

Jesus said "I know those who are mine and I call them by name." and "All the Father has given me will come to me." After many years and trials, I've really come to believe in election and predestination.

The band did the right thing and so did the guitarist. It was a matter of integrity for both sides and being true to the Lord.

i think it was the right thing to do because they said:

"We just want to love on people like Jesus would and hopefully share a little bit about what he's done and doing in our lives."

if Jason were to still be in the band i think they wouldnt be doing what they said they were to do. that would be total fakes. Of course its sad to see this. You always see ppl go to God and away from God. But its even sader when its someone whom u looked up to several years and says "i dont care anymore"....its like ur dad telling you he not your dad

i will still pray for the guy but man, this is really hard to swallow

has to be tougher for the band whos releasing the new album...
im gonna keep praying

any band that calls itself Christian and plays music with a style like "death metal" or "punk" or "rap" should seriously examine their own spiritual condition.

I think this would apply to "death metal" and perhaps to some degree with "punk" (given punk's general cynicism) but rap, Brad? Seriously? You're going to paint an entire musical genre with such a wide brush? Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that rap music and the hip hop lifestyle are flawed and that negativity and other unholy aspects abound throughout it, but you cannot seriously throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to rap/hip hop music, unless, of course, your understanding of hip hop is rudimentary and based on what you see on BET. There is positive hip hop music, political hip hop music, and yes, Christian hip hop music, which does not glorify the ugly aspects of life that some hip hop artists wallow in (like drugs, booze, partying, sexual immorality, violence, etc.), but is lyrically geared to glorify God in Jesus Christ. To equate rap music with death metal is incredibly ignorant. Nobody equates the general rock format with evil (not since the 1950s), yet you're here, assuming that all rap music is evil, just because some of it is.

I think what you've proven here, Brad, is that because of your negative experience with a certain type of Christian rock in the 80s, you're highly suspicious of any form of Christian musical expression that resembles any form of popular modern music in its basic musical structure, let alone its lyrical content. If the music isn't gentle and bland and (let's be honest here) white, Brad, then you think it's from the depths of hell. If that's not what you believe, then my apologies, but it sure is the impression you give.

lame name? dude, what's your problem? get off your soap box. Their name is amazing. It's from an old hymn. And if you want to talk scripture why don't you look at the one about being unequally yoked. A band is a serious relationship and if you're not going to be sharpened by each other, you're going to be dulled.

Where there is unity, God commands a blessing. I feel for these guys as their decision must not have been easy for them. But in the end, they have made the only decision they could have. Having Jason Barnes stay on in the band would have undermined their credibility. Christians are already heavily judged by the world and even more so when it is a christian hard core band, and to have given any hint that as a band they weren't what they profess to be would hyave provided ammunition for those looking for an excuse to tear them down.

My prayer is that Jason will realise that he is not on the right path and return to the Lord.

BTW - I have never heard of this band and am not into hard core music, but I am a muso and understand the pressures.

I have heard John James (formerly of the Newsboys) testimony many times and have had several one on one in depth conversations over the years and realise that his situation is similar to what has happened here.

He found himself in the position not of losing his faith, but of living a lifestyle contrary to what he knew was right. Rather than pull the band into disrepute, it was decided by all of the band that John needed to leave the band.

So in this case, Haste the Day have made the right decision.