"We are today part of a church denomination that is changing, and it will make possible sexual moral standards that are contrary to the Bible — which is what brings Jesus closer to us"

Is he saying that the bible "brings Jesus closer" or flowing with the times rather than the bible in regards to relationships? Which ever the case, it puzzles me to no end as to how any group that names the name of Christ can possibly think that God will conform to their lifestyle. The entire concept of Christian discipleship is about abandoning one's own life to take on the life of Christ. The simplicity of this idea seems so evident.

Why do churches think they need to be so accepting and buckle to cultural conformity? "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2 KJV)

Could it be that another candlestick is being removed?

This is a tragedy. It grieves me to see that the Lutheran Church in America has abandoned its once rich theological tradition for what seems right in the eyes of men. This abandonment of the truth revealed in scripture will lead to ruin. The bible is clear on the subject of homosexuality (and all sin for that matter), yet they simply ignore it. Rather than condemning sin, they are embracing it as something that will make them relevant. There is a serious lack of a fear of God when they can comfortably make "possible sexual moral standards that are contrary to the Bible". I pray that the Lutheran Church in America would repent of this blatant embracing of what the bible says will lead to death. I pray that the Lutheran Church in America, and others, would return to a fear of God and that they would no longer be conformed to the patterns of this world, but would be transformed by the renewing of their minds: that they would seek after and treasure Jesus Christ.

Yeah, there's something not quite right about Quie's statement. Contradicting the word is rejecting Jesus himself. The book of John says that Jesus is the physical form of the word of God, he is it's material representation. If you contradict the word, and Jesus is the word, then you've just told Jesus to take a flying leap out of your church. How's that work again?

I get all the tolerance speak and all the desire that the church will quit being so stodgy and just give up it's morals and be cool with everyone. And, the truth is that the church has been pretty crappy towards homosexuals. The church follows the Bible, though, and while the Bible doesn't instruct us to treat homosexuals like evil monsters, it also doesn't say it's cool to be gay. We can all get along without giving up the foundations of our beliefs. That is true love and love is what Christians are supposed to be about.

The root of all this began in the 1970s when the question was "Is the Bible the Word of God?" "Yes, the whole bible is the Word of God" was the position taken by the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church. The Lutheran bodies which became the ELCA took the position "the bible CONTAINS the Word of God". If the bible only contains the Word of God, you can pick and choose what is of God and what is of men. It seems the ELCA chose to believe the teachings about sexuality in the bible came from men and they are free to change them.

As Daniel Florien put it: ELCA makes a step forward in morality, as they move further away from biblical Christianity. http://twitter.com/DanielFlorien/status/3462940009

This is great news. I hope more and more churches will reject hate and embrace love.

I may be wrong, but I believe Quie was against the measure for practicing homosexuals -- he was the one who tried to pass a measure allowing openly gay, abstinent men to lead. With that in mind, I took it as showing disdain for the ELCA's decision to adopt a counterbiblical moral standard, with "Brings Jesus closer to us" meaning "One more sign that we're nearing the end times." But I could be entirely wrong.

Quie's sentence was not grammatically perfect, thus the confusion. He is against practicing gay leadership. In the paragraph before that it was stated clearly that he presented a motion to require celibacy of leaders who feel they are homosexual. That motion was defeated. His quote about the bible was that the motion that did pass - allowing practicing gays to lead - was contrary to scripture.

I mourn for my brothers and sisters in the ELCA. I left the ELCA four years ago when, during a discussion on homosexuality, a deacon said that "we have to remember that the Bible was written by humans who can make mistakes." This statement rejected the whole basis of Christianity, God's Holy Word. As far as the comment about rejecting hate and embracing love, we are instructed to hate sin, but love people. The ELCA has confused the issue and chosen to--at a minimum--tolerate sin. There has to be a line that is drawn--the Bible shows where that line is drawn. The ELCA has chosen to ignore it.

we have travelled a long way from biblical truth and christian responsibility when defending the truth is called hate and allowing what is abundantly clear a violation of human relations acts of love. national bodies in their desire to be "politically correct" and relevant have lost sight of who God is and what God desires for human-divine relationships and human-human relationships. Maybe the whole question is not about doctrine or truth but about membership which has been on the decline in all protestant denominations for many years. what price are we willing to pay for membership. after all the man of love taught "narrow is the way and few find it." while wide is the way and many travel upon it. If we are going to use the man of love then use him in the full context of his teaching. "I come not to bring peace but a sword...to pit father aginst son and daughter aginst mother...truth has a way of causing these serious divisions. I hope Christian congregations will stand for truth and be willing to accept whatever the consequences may be for standing for that truth that has stood the test of time when challenged and met by truth devoted followers of the Truth.cliff

@Danny

If Christianity is not biblical, then it's not Christianity. This is a great tragedy in the ELCA.

This decision makes me very sad. As a woman who identified as a lesbian for over 10 years, was not a Christian at all and who is now a strong believer in Christ as our Savior and a woman whose mind and heart have been miraculously changed by the Lord...it doesn't surprise me but it does make me sad to know that yet another church has deemed it okay to jump headlong into sin. Since I became a believer several years ago, I have noticed that we (including me many times) tend to take Scripture and twist it to fit OUR needs. Forget dying to yourself...if the Bible speaks against something we believe in, it must not be true. Well...I found out the hard way...the Lord's wooing isn't always going to come in the form of what we want. Walking in obedience, headstrong after the Lord is not easy and it sure isn't fun sometimes. This particular subject is so hard for me to discuss because of my past and my feelings that no one will understand...but to see this church decide that it's okay to dismiss Christ's commands to flea from sin, when I have seen firsthand the Redeeming power and miraculous change the Lord can demonstrate in someone so lowly as me...it's upsetting! Why conform your church to the times when we are very specifically called to NOT conform to the things of this world? I just don't get it. I pray for this church.

Help me out here...
How do those in foavor of homosexual leadership in the church answer to scripture that clearly rebukes the gay lifestyle? Is it generally a response that says scripture is not pure truth as it was penned by men? Or is there a bigger better argument? I am curious.
I fear for those who would choose this selfish rational. I fear for our country now more than ever. My family and I will rest safely in the arms of truth

not a huge surprise. most (or at least many) divisions in Christendom over the past 500 years have been about what most would call sexual "freedom." after all, we don't want some old pope or group of men telling us what we can and can't do in the bedroom, right? funny here that's it's the Lutherans again - their namesake left the Church, and his vows to God, and married a nun, who did the same thing. King Henry VIII soon followed suit (as have countless others since then) and started his own church because the Church did not allow divorce.

when our lives, will, interests, and desires no longer agree with the Holy Spirit, the Church, or even the bible, we go our own way, "Protest-ing", and start our own thing. it is a sad legacy of division this last half-millenium.

On August 21, 2009, Michelle posted: "The root of all this began in the 1970s when the question was "Is the Bible the Word of God?" "Yes, the whole bible is the Word of God" was the position taken by the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church. The Lutheran bodies which became the ELCA took the position "the bible CONTAINS the Word of God". If the bible only contains the Word of God, you can pick and choose what is of God and what is of men. It seems the ELCA chose to believe the teachings about sexuality in the bible came from men and they are free to change them."

I would respectfully say the roots go back to the founding of the Lutheran church, centuries before the 1970's, though the changes you speak of followed the upheavals everywhere from the 1960's, fostering alterations in many denominations and creating a few new denominations as well. But i would agree with your assessment, that the Lutherans, like many others, have taken what could be called a "Cafeteria Christianity" approach to their faith, picking and choosing the things they like from the bible, AND Christian tradition, discarding the rest, and making up new traditions along the way.

I believe that homosexuality should not be approved by the Lutheran Church. We love the sinner, not the sin. Now, I would like to go to church tomorrow and substantiate my convictions with Bible text. Can anyone help me here?

@ Patrick

Most Christianity isn't "biblical" as you put it, since people are picking and choosing different positions, and sometimes adding positions that aren't even in the bible. This goes for all sects of Christianity.

Good for the ECLA.

Wow, amazing to me that all of you writing posts here are with out sin. Churches, not just the Lutheran Church, are for sinners, all kinds of sinners. The Bible is the Word of God and in that Word, many sins are spoken of. Sins that you and I commit moment by moment. What Martin Luther wanted to get across to everyone was the fact that those sins that we are reminded of everyday SHOULD be sending us ALL to our knees at the foot of the cross. It is on our knees that we die to self and are forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ. Through His Grace, we are saved. All clergy, in every church denomination are sinners, just like the rest of us. Divorced, gay, women, former murderers, those who have been unfaithful, are just as able to share God's message of forgiveness and Grace as any of us. That is what this decision is about. Allowing God to do the judging and forgiving and for us to be open to what God is doing in our life's.

You are right...we are all sinners indeed...and God is the judge. I am just hung up on the fact that a lifestyle condemned by the true judge in scripture...is one that will now be not only accepted by the church...but more than likely taught as correct. Like I stated...I am admittedly hung up and hoping for clarity. I will undoubtedly and ultimately refer to scripture for this clarity...nonetheless I hope to gain as much information from both sides of the issue as an informed position is a strong one.

@LutheranChick -- absolutely we are all sinners and fall short of God's glory. We find freedom and are justified by the blood of Christ. A very high price and one we cannot pay ourselves or expect any other to pay.

However, the standard and the law have not changed nor will they. The same Word that created the heavens and the law and who became flesh and lived with us and died for us -- this same Jesus will judge all flesh, all mankind according to not how *good* they were but if they trusted in Christ and what he says is true and not true.

This same Jesus is a God of love. He didn't condemn the adulteress (or the gay man today). However, he does, as he did to that woman (and to any who would trust in him today) say "Go, and sin no more." This is possible to be free from sin (heterosexual and homesexual) by faith in Christ.

I doubt any (or few) here would claim to be without sin. But, rather, are noting the continued slide of the church away from believing in the written word of God and faith in the words of Christ. Rather, they substitute their own beliefs, exchanging truth for a lie as it so clearly states in Romans 1.

I am grieved beyond words with the news from the ELCA convention. It's an abomination! Not even a tornado toppling the convention site, and interrupting the meeting could stir a Holy conviction. When the people who call themselves followers of Jesus and believers in the God of the Bible, no longer revere the Bible as the inspired Word of God, rather pick and choose what to believe, they have created an idol!

How do we know we've been deceived if we stop letting the
Word of God lead, convict, and correct us? God doesn't override a free will; His Word says that in later days, even the elect will be lead astray.

When sin isn't sin and all things are permissible, when unrepentant sinners are ordained to lead the church, when obedience to God is called legalism, and when hating sin is called racism and discrimination, this is when you know deception has fallen on the church. Jesus loves sinners and hates sin; that’s what the church is called to. But love isn’t pushing away the Word of God and tolerating what offends God. When we deceive ourselves into believing sin is no longer sin, we no longer need a Savior and Christ died in vain.

I think what surprised me the most is that this issue hasn't been talked about in the church. I learned of this on the news this week. If the church hadn't swept this issue under the rug, the vote could have been overturned by people who stand with God on righteousness. The churches apathetic response to tolerance is just as much a sin as those who embrace this abomination.

Where do we go from here? I think people who have chosen the God of the Bible to be their God need to wake up from our slumber and individually and corporately repent, otherwise we are can only expect God’s wrath. “If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land” (2 Chronicles 7:14; Amplified Bible).

The Holy Spirit's breath could not convince ELCA assembly members to turn away from sin, how surprising is this? Jesus remarked that even those who witnessed His saving healing power of sinners wouldn't be convinced with their own eyes, and asked for yet more signs from Him. ELCA has doomed themselves to complete dissolution; they are no longer Christian, for it is not possible to have pagan homosexuals ministering to a Christian church. Jesus noted this, that even the elect will be deceived, and so it has become truth! The wolves are now allowed among the sheep, and the flocks will be scattered. Homosexuality is a pagan cult and a death-style. God said choose life, so that you and your people will live. This is definitely not life, ELCA assembly voters chose death for their congregations, so be it.

"The Great Falling Away" (Greek: apostasia) has been headed by the Church of Rome with a mere human as head of the Church instead of Christ. In Revelation, the apostle John calls both her and her daughter churches 'whores' i.e. they are unfaithful to God and His Word, hence full of spiritual adultery.
The harlot woman in Revelation holds a cup in her hand that is fill of the wine of her fornication. Wine is used by Jesus as a symbol of doctrine (Matthew 9:17)

Those of us who believe the Scriptures teach God's moral standards are often accused of 'judging' if we declare our beliefs. In 1Corinthians 5, the apostle Paul clearly rebukes the church for not judging an incestuous relationship within the Corinthian church. He states that it is not up to us to judge those outside the fellowship, but that we are responsible to judge such situations within the fellowship. On the basis of Scripture it is reasonable for us to judge the decision of the ELCA as apostate - a defection from the Truth.

That is right. We are to listen to God's word in the Bible. Can you believe there are churches out there that actually allow women to speak? (1 Cor 14:33-34 "As in all the churches of the saints, women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.") And in other churches allow menstruating women in them. (Ezekiel 18:5 "But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, and hath not ... come near to a menstruous woman." Also Lev 15:19 "When a woman has a discharge of blood that is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening.") Thankfully there are those of you out there that still listen to God's word in the Bible!

Jennifer said: I think what surprised me the most is that this issue hasn't been talked about in the church. I learned of this on the news this week. If the church hadn't swept this issue under the rug, the vote could have been overturned by people who stand with God on righteousness. The churches apathetic response to tolerance is just as much a sin as those who embrace this abomination.

My response: This has been talked about in the ELCA for years. I worked with groups within the ELCA at the 2005 and 2007 assemblies to prevent passage of this travesty. It has even been widely reported in secular newspapers, not just when this issue has been debated in the ELCA, but also in the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the United Methodist Church. This is nothing new. It just finally got enough votes to pass this time. No surprise here. It was obvious to me in 2007 where this was going and I left for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. My prayers are with those pastors and laypeople who have worked so hard to keep the ELCA orthodox and now have to figure out where to go and what to do.

Well, yes- the Lutherans' actions are clearly un-Christian, but who are you evangelicals to condemn them? They're just excercising their Protestant right to individual interpretation of the Bible. It's no different from all the wacky churches you embrace which babble in tongues, or believe in Calvinism, or permit divorce, or preach Word-Faith, etc. When you have no higher authority than your own individual interpretation of the Bible, then anything goes. See the problem with Sola Scriptura? As a Catholic, I can cite true authority- i.e. the Bible in conjuction with Tradition, as interpreted by the Church Jesus founded so that we would "no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming" (Ephesians 4:14-15). What do you have? A democratic vote to determine Biblical truth? Well done.

The ECLU left Bible literalism behind long ago when they allowed women to serve. They even have served shrimp at potlach dinners, and the Bible is very clear about shrimp eating.

@Johann. Thank you. What about wearing different types of cloth together? And planting different crops together? If you want to take the entire Bible literally, you cannot pick and choose which parts you keep and which parts you reject. God continues to speak to us today. Jesus had a radical ministry where he accepted all into the fold, especially those who were being marginalized by society and by religous leaders. And, Jesus says absolutely nothing about homosexuality. Sadly, this will fall on deaf ears and I will be labeled as "unChristian" but I am trying to live my life as Jesus directed. I welcome all to the Table, especially those who have been hurt in the name of religiou and told that they were not good enough. Peace and blessings to all. A UCC Seminarian.

I would appreciate each contributor to this topic defining what he or she means by "homosexuality." If they are talking about people who are exclusively ATTRACTED to their own gender, even though having a commitment to abstain from sexual relations for life, then it would be relevant to our understanding of their comments.

If they are just referring to those who PARTICIPATE in sexual activities with their own gender, then they need to make the reader aware that is their understanding of the word, "homosexuality."

Calling the former sin seems to be like saying that a heterosexual is sinning just by virtue of the fact that he or she is attracted to the opposite sex, which we know is not sin until it becomes lust.

Also, the former definition seems to be saying that one can somehow control one's attractions, whatever the etiology of their attractions might be. It seems to me that learving the definition of the "sin of homosexuality" undefined may be the cause of many people who are staying abstinent have a sense of false guilt, when, in fact, they are sacrificing and suffering for the Lord alot more that most of the rest of us.

Also, we might want to remember that Jesus Christ was "tempted in all things" just as we are. Last time I checked, temptation itself was not a sin.

I think that it's this confusion and false guilt we, as a Church, have caused in these poor people who are innocent of the charges against them, that may actually be driving them INTO sin rather than keeping them FROM the very sin so many Christians have such strong feelings against. They feel that they have done something wrong just because of their feelings which they can't help -- they are just there, so they just give up, and often, this sense of abandonment and misunderstanding leads to suicide.

This refusal to understand what they are trying to tell us about their feelings may be the real sin in this thing. Seems to me it would be so much easier if the church didn't keep saying, "No, you don't really feel that way, you just think you do!" That, my friends, is the formula for making a person lose his or her mind, just like the elephant in the living room that no one talks about.

We do have to talk about what the Bible says, but we have to somehow deal with reality, and the reality is that some people, for reasons beyond their control, have the same experience with feelings for their own sex as heterosexuals have for the opposite sex, and in my opinion, most who are attracted to their own sex, have NO attraction to the opposite. It would make it alot easier if they were attracted to both, because then, they would have a real choice.

Like it or not, this is just one of the things for which there is no easy answer, so lets try to deal with reality, both that of these people's life experiences as well as the reality of the truth of the Bible. For goodness sakes, don't tell them they SHOULDN'T feel that way! Worse yet, that they DON'T feel that way. You are not a mind reader, and you haven't walked where they have walked. None of us is an authority on other people's feelings.

I would like an honest response to this post if the editors would be so kind to leave it here, if any of you understand what I'm trying to say. I just think the terms used in these articles are so confusing as to make everyone talk past everyone else. The same terminology needs to be used or the discussion is meaningless.

Thanks for giving this some thought.
Nance

I think what surprised me the most is that this issue hasn't been talked about in the church. I learned of this on the news this week. If the church hadn't swept this issue under the rug, the vote could have been overturned by people who stand with God on righteousness. The churches apathetic response to tolerance is just as much a sin as those who embrace this abomination. (By Jennifer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhhhhhhhhh...Jennifer....Yoo Hooooo. Where have you been the last 8 years? The last 35 years. This very topic has been studied to death since 1974 and just the last 8 years they've decided to not waffle any longer but to act. This discussion, study, etc. has been tabled so long it was 1" off the floor. Something simply had to be done! For you hand-wringers and "Oh woe is me, woe is us" people...how did you THINK these votes would come out???!!! 99% against the church's stand?? You defy reality in this day and age. Look at our political mess...look at our Theological mess! These things did NOT happen because of lack of attention. We are in this mess because of lack of ACTION. The horses have been, and are now ALL out of the barn!
I hope you don't think I side with the conservatives and the right wing-nuts! Just the opposite!! The GLBT family of God is ow firmly accepted (rightly so) within... within the arms of the church! I suppose WE GLBT people should give credit where credit is due. Had not the Conservative Bible haters given credence and arrogance to our cause, we would never have made the progress we have in the last 30 years, so hats off to the nut jobs out there!
Had the ELCA and Episcopalian Church been the only denominations who saw the Light, I could understand the AMAZZZING turn of events.
However, the acceptance in love of the GLBT persons has been ongoing for a number of years in the UCC, Disciples of Christ, and other smaller denominations. Y'all are catching up!!
I would highly recommend that, since you do-gooder Bible readers of THE WORD, start putting your lives into action and DO the work that Christ calls you to do...don't just read about. Then you may gain some creds in calling yourselves Christian! Cheesch!!!

Thank you, Nance, for your excellent post! It's not that the no-minds can't hear or accept. They can't read or understand. THAT'S the problem!
Most of these anti-GLBT people haven't had an original religious thought since Mummy and Daddy said their prayers for them when they were 5 years old or less. Not much growth there. Ummmm Ummmm!!!
Let's see if they'll turn over a new leaf.
Dakotahgeo

Thank you, Nance, for your excellent post! It's not that the no-minds can't hear or accept. They can't read or understand. THAT'S the problem!
Most of these anti-GLBT people haven't had an original religious thought since Mummy and Daddy said their prayers for them when they were 5 years old or less. Not much growth there. Ummmm Ummmm!!!
Let's see if they'll turn over a new leaf.
Dakotahgeo

Posted by: Dakotahgeo at August 24, 2009

It is not a new idea that there will be a departure from sound doctrine...

2Timothy 4:3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear.

2Timothy 4:4 They will reject the truth and follow strange myths.

Following the strange myth that homosexuality and Christianity somehow go together, makes about as much sense as saying that ocean water is potable...

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the spirit of Antichrist is definately working to rob and to kill...... be alert...wake up....fill your lamps now.... the Bridegroom will soon be here to take His Bride away with Him....be ready!!

We are learning from your discussion of what happening there in your modernized called churches. New doctrines, new revelations, new waves, etc. that makes us amazed. By these, should we not our simple church, in a
developing country, be like yours in thinking for a few years from now.
Should we decide to remain innocent, awkward but uphold what the Bible says.Where are the scribes, the wise? They are here now, but in the end, they will be annihilated.Be faithful to the Word & to the Lord. ELCA true members, get out of the abomination. We'll pray for you. Godbless.

Wow. What a funny mess. It just makes me laugh to think that I could have a non-repentant homosexual person teaching me avoiding homosexuality in church next week. I wonder if it is time to find a church that appoints followers of Christ to teach the congregations. What's also funny (well, sad/funny) is that so many of us seem to be so helplessly connected to this church. It's like we can't simply wake up and accept that the church is led by people who have lost all touch with the core teachings and principles of the Bible.

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but this is obvious to me. I'm done and am going to thoroughly re-evaluate my connection to this church. What a relief it is to have this issue voted on and the results out in plain sight. Now I can truly gauge the level of inspired leadership that exists at the top of the church.

Good luck to all of you. Look for the EXIT sign over the door and go breathe some fresh air. I have no doubt that there's something better out there.

AMEN Brother Andy!! ...... please pray for USA. Ralph Gaily

I assume that my writing of 8/24 (confused) was not worthy of space.
I REALLY need to get my head straight.
PLEASE allow my writing...or please respond to it!

Most Christian discussion of this topic ignores the fact that most psychiatrists today realize that homosexuality is not a choice, but a given -- just like left-handedness. And I remember the time when school teachers used to walk up and down the aisles of their class-
rooms and hit with a ruler the left hands of those who were writing perversely! The Old Testament forbids many things that we accept today -- like eating shrimp and wearing garments made of two kinds of cloth. And the Old Testament accepts many things that we regard today as sinful -- such as slavery! The real question is - What would Jesus say to one who was facing DNA-produced drives?

You can't convince those who worship their sexuality that what they're doing is sinful.

Most Christian discussion of this topic ignores the fact that most psychiatrists today realize that homosexuality is not a choice, but a given -- just like left-handedness. And I remember the time when school teachers used to walk up and down the aisles of their class-
rooms and hit with a ruler the left hands of those who were writing perversely! The Old Testament forbids many things that we accept today -- like eating shrimp and wearing garments made of two kinds of cloth. And the Old Testament accepts many things that we regard today as sinful -- such as slavery! The real question is - What would Jesus say to one who was facing DNA-produced drives?

Posted by: Ronaldo at August 25, 2009

Your DNA argument is bogus Ronaldo....

During the last 40 years the majority of SSA studies have been conducted, reviewed and/or published by homosexuality affirming researchers, many of whom are also openly homosexual. (1) Virtually all of the studies were touted by the media as proving that SSA is inborn. In reality, however, every one of them, from gene analysis, to brain structure, fingerprint styles, handedness, finger lengths, eye blinking, ear characteristics, verbal skills and prenatal hormones, have failed to be replicated, were criticized for research limitations, and/or were outright debunked.(3-7) This includes the widely publicized brain research of Dr. Simon LeVay,(8) and the gay gene research of Dr. Dean Hamer

What the current political climate ignores is that the last forty years of data proves only a small biological contribution and a significant degree of sexual fluidity.

http://www.acpeds.org/index.cgi?BISKIT=6792&CONTEXT=art&cat=10005&art=167%3Cbr%3E

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Can't the people in this denomination's churches start up petitions in their churches and present these petitions to the rulers of the church. It seems like the everyday members as compared to those at the convention figured the vote would go against accepting homosexuality and therefore didn't pay attention to it. Instead of leaving the church, do a petition drive first, if the petition drive is not accepted than find a new church but fight first. Many an election has been lost because the populace assumed that everybody would be voting for a particular way/person and so didn't go to vote and left the field wide open for the minority to win. Who shows up at the election to vote wins. You can't always rely on other people all the time. It seems a lot of people were told by the media to vacant the building due to the tornato and others left to go home. Always if a small group wants to get the vote to go their way, wait until the last minute and than call a vote after people have walked out the door. It happens at business meetings all the time. Get a petition drive going and prove the vote wasn't the wishes of the majority. It only takes one person to change the world.

I have been around for a long time. I was confirmed in the Lutheran Church in the 1950's. I loved my church and the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible. Martin Luther took a stand. He stood for the Word of God not of men. When the church started to ordain women in the sixties or seventies, that is when I started to see the men flee the church taking their leadership with them. Soon it was just mostly women and children and the elderly left. This was all done to be more "relevant". Here you are again trying to be "relevant" by ordaining gays. Now, you can call yourselves relevant and modern but you have paid a great price. You were called to stand for the Word of God and be the salt of the earth now you stand for what any other social club would stand for and you are no longer the salt of the earth teaching and preserving souls but opening the door wider to the world and it's ways. God have mercy on the true believers and guide you in your next step.

Everyone has an opinion about the ECLA vote, and that is great. But the real opinion in the end will belong to God. I am sure that Satan must be smiling because he works well where there are divisions. It is when he has the most power among God's people.Supporting worldly views about morality and sexuality creates the weakness that Satan is looking for. He can't inherit God's eternal kingdom, so he wants to make sure he can keep as many of God's people from inheriting Heaven as well.
The Bible is God's word and it is the only truth. Try reading the book "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn. It is an awakening that details what everyone needs to know about which road they have chosen and where will they be in the end. The Lord will not keep those churches who do not teach his truth through the Bible. The ECLA is setting themselves up for destruction. I am glad not to be a member of the ECLA entity anymore.

I like David Hardy's suggestion (on Aug 25) of starting petitions within the congregations. I'm a new Lutheran (after leaving the Episcopal church) so I don't know about Lutheran procedure. Would petitions really have an impact on the Lutheran leadership or would that be a futile effort? I would welcome any feedback from those of you who understand how the ELCA makes decisions and conducts business. Along those same lines, I was disappointed to learn that the vote to pass the social statement on sexuality required a 2/3 majority, but the vote to pass the resolution about rostered leadership only required a simple majority. If a 2/3 majority had been required, that resolution would not have passed. Why the discrepancy in the voting procedure? Also, I was informed by our pastor that the voting member of our congregation was not a "delegate" or "representative" but a "voting member" of the convention (in other words she voted however she wanted). It disturbs me that our congregation was not polled for our opinions on the matters that were voted on. Is this the way Lutherans make decisions? If so, I may have joined the wrong church.

Sorry - in my post above, I credited the wrong person. It was Anna who suggested the petitions.

Someone asked for the Scriptures that we base this discussion on. There may be others but the ones I can find quickly are: Genesis 2 (creation of man & woman);
Genesis 18, 19 (Sodom & Gomorrah);
Romans 1: 18 to 32;
1st Cor. 6: 9-11.
Someone said Jesus didn't address homosexuality. That's true, but he did talk about ideal marriage in Matthew 19. Thanks to everyone for your comments. Let's keep the discussion kind and thoughtful without personal attacks. God bless. Ruth

I forgot Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Ruthcontuse

This is tragic news for a Christian. The Bible cannot be more explicit in addressing 'marriage', its account is simple and complete.A Church asserting salvation in Jesus Chirst can no longer be one if it does not conform to the teaching of Jesus. The Evangelical Lutheran Church might just proceed further and re-interpret the entire Bible to mirror their cultural/organizational ethos. Matthew 16:24 Jesus said that if anyone wants to be my disciple,he should deny himself, shoulder his cross and follow me.

My ancestors came to this land as Lutherans.... for religious freedom. For generations I have been taught by our church that Homosexual behavior is wrong, now it is fine? I would never force, or ask my church to change their laws. I would start another church to practice what I believe. The real sin here is caving by our Leaders to please a few and forcing those of us who are faithful to Lutheran doctrine to accept the demands of a minority. The weakness is at the Top.

You all so remind me of the "Massive Resistance" racists of my youth. You've learned nothing, repented of nothing. The Bible doesn't say what you say it says, if for no other reason than "Homosexuality" didn't exist, and it's an obsolete theory/social construct today.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at August 27, 2009

Gregory... Once again.... Your argument is built upon semantics...

This...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Is totally in sync with this....

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

To willfully twist the Bible to meet your own ends, does not at all change the biblical message that homosexuality is an abomination...

.

In response to "Ahhhhhhhhhh...Jennifer....Yoo Hooooo. Where have you been the last 8 years? The last 35 years. This very topic has been studied to death since 1974 and just the last 8 years they've decided to not waffle any longer but to act."

I'm thankful that you've been in circles within the ELCA that have been upfront with the issue and that it has been talked about. That has not been the case for me.

I've been attending one of the largest ELCA churches in the country and when I asked the Executive Pastor if we were going to talk about Friday's decision. He said with all sincerity, "What decision are you talking about?" He added that I was only one of two people that have asked about it. He said it is a non issue. In further conversation, I learned that the church I've been attending is 100% supportive of the decision and does not view acting on homosexual urges as a sin. Yet, no where is this stand on the issue talked about, taught, preached, or posted on the belief section of the Web site, membership materials, etc.

I urge all ELCA churches to at least publish a statement from leadership whether you support this decision or oppose this decision so that parish like me, who sincerely love God and want to be involved in His church, can make educated decisions about where to attend.

When will the churches take a Biblical stand and throw out people who touch the skin of pigs, those who eat shellfish, those who wear mixed fibers? All those things are against Biblical law. Where, oh where are the godly preachers preaching against men cutting their beards and women braiding their hair? When will our godly men and women return to Biblical law and demand the death penalty for misbehaving children and people who have affairs? God's word doesn't change, right?

When will the churches take a Biblical stand and throw out people who touch the skin of pigs, those who eat shellfish, those who wear mixed fibers? All those things are against Biblical law. Where, oh where are the godly preachers preaching against men cutting their beards and women braiding their hair? When will our godly men and women return to Biblical law and demand the death penalty for misbehaving children and people who have affairs? God's word doesn't change, right?

Posted by: Kathleen in SF at August 28, 2009

Perhaps this may help you...

Mark 7:19 Food doesn't come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then comes out again." (By saying this, he showed that every kind of food is acceptable.)

Mark 7:20 And then he added, "It is the thought-life that defiles you.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder,

Mark 7:22 adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.

Mark 7:23 All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God."

.

In response to "When will the churches take a Biblical stand and throw out people who touch the skin of pigs, those who eat shellfish, those who wear mixed fibers?"

We all need a Savior, but only when we acknowledge our sin as sin. I would have a hard time submitting to anyone in leadership in my church who is practicing unrepentent sin.

Jesus not only died for our sin as our Savior, but He is also Lord. This means surrendering our lives to Him, knowing His Word, being led by the Holy Spirit that leads us and guides us into truth according to the Bible, and being in fellowship with other followers of Jesus.

I think the main problem here is that this ELCA decision is saying that acting on homosexuality desires is not a sin so that people who engage in this can lead the church and that the church is now blessing homosexual relationships. This decision contradicts Scripture and over rules the Word of God as the authority over the church.

It's uncontroversial in mainstream theology that your beloved clobber verses are about idolatry, the power of idolatry, not "homosexuality," which didn't exist, and which is an obsolete science theory/social construct today.

People can't do that which is unnatural. However, the power of idolatry can induce people to do what they wouldn't otherwise, to do what is just not what they would do. Don't have sex with a man if you're not Gay...and if you are Gay: love, in the broadest sense of the word... love him as you would want to be loved yourself.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at August 30, 2009

Gregory... Once again.... Your argument is built upon semantics...

This...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Is totally in sync with this....

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

To willfully twist the Bible to meet your own ends, does not at all change the biblical message that homosexuality is an abomination...

.

We must not only ignore, we must reject the proof texts used by some to condemn homosexuality, just as we not only ignore but reject the proof texts used by the Church in the past to condone slavery, subjugation of women, polygamy, Saturday worship. These texts are unChristian: contrary to the life & teachings of Jesus, the living Word of God, come to bring us life & truth, freeing us from the cermonial & sacrificial laws of Exodus & Leviticus (the 10 Commandments excluded). No one teaches these laws in S.S. or preaches on them! They're unChristian & unethical.
Therefore it is unChristian & unethical to pick one that declares homosexuality an abomination, while ignoring ALL the others that are called an abomination such as eating shell fish, touching a pig skin or a woman during her time of menstration. They are all unChristian and must be disavowed. Jesus constantly freed people from the all the laws & traditions of the Scribes & Pharisees based on these ceremonial laws. Thank God the ELCA is finally freeing homosexuals to be and do what heterosexuals take for granted: the freedom to be who they are and fulfill their calling. No one chooses to be heterosexual or homosexual, they just are what they are, like the color of ones skin.
The Church has battered & kicked homosexuals around for too long, just as it did to slaves, blacks, & women on the basis of proof texts. Thank God the ELCA is finally accepting them as full citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, as Jesus does, and extending to those in life-long committed relations their right to be pastors & leaders in the Church. Think about it: it's not homosexual pastors who have injured the Church, but heterosexual pastors, unfaithful in their marriages. Think about it: it's not homosexuals who cause the problems in our society of divorce, broken homes, neglected children, promiscuity (pregnancies out of wedlock) resulting in abortions. It heterosexuals!
Let congregations who are spirirtually mature enough call homosexual pastors in committed relationships. Let them report to the Church whether such a pastorate is a blessing or a curse. The Gospel of Jesus reaches out especially to those who have been marginalized (even by the Church): the poor, disadvantaged, women & homosexuals. In Jesus all are welcome into God's family (grace & truth), or none of us are. It's high time we not only preach, but live the Gospel: welcoming all into the life & ministry of the Church, especially homosexuals, who have been barred too long.

We must not only ignore, we must reject the proof texts used by some to condemn homosexuality, just as we not only ignore but reject the proof texts used by the Church in the past to condone slavery, subjugation of women, polygamy, Saturday worship. These texts are unChristian: contrary to the life & teachings of Jesus, the living Word of God, come to bring us life & truth, freeing us from the cermonial & sacrificial laws of Exodus & Leviticus (the 10 Commandments excluded). No one teaches these laws in S.S. or preaches on them! They're unChristian & unethical.

Posted by: Lloyd Ziebarth at August 31, 2009

By what authority do you presume to render the Bible "unChristian & unethical?".... Just because social ideas have changed, does not at all indicate that the Bible is incorrect in anything... Just because you may disagree with something in the Bible does not indicate that the fault is with the Bible...

In the days of Isaiah, God was displeased with how His commandments were being ignored in favor of human laws....

Isaiah 29:13 And so the Lord says, "These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. And their worship of me amounts to nothing more than human laws learned by rote.

Jesus echoed this, in his day..

Mark 7:6 Jesus replied, "You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said,

Mark 7:7 `These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings.'

Mark 7:8 For you ignore God's specific laws and substitute your own traditions."

Mark 7:9 Then he said, "You reject God's laws in order to hold on to your own traditions.

It is not difficult to interpret this..

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

And this...

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

Teaching against sexual impurity was indeed part of Jesus'message...

Mark 7:19 Food doesn't come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then comes out again." (By saying this, he showed that every kind of food is acceptable.)

Mark 7:20 And then he added, "It is the thought-life that defiles you.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder,

Mark 7:22 adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.

Mark 7:23 All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God."

To presume that homosexuality is not included in the sexual immorality that Jesus spoke of,is to be willfully ignorant...

.

LutheranChick, yes, we are all sinners, but Christians are repentant sinners. If there is no desire to repent and die to sin, then we are not truly following Christ, and such people are certainly unfit to be church leaders. For the Lutheran church to allow practicing homosexuals to become church leaders, is to embrace sin and abandon holiness. Is that God’s way?

Nance wrote:
“I would appreciate each contributor to this topic defining what he means by "homosexuality."
If they are just referring to those who PARTICIPATE in sexual activities with their own gender, then they need to make the reader aware that is their understanding of the word, "homosexuality."”

Nance, I think it is safe to say that most of the people posting here oppose practicing homosexuals (those who PARTICIPATE in sexual activities with their own gender) being put in positions of church leadership. People who are attracted to the same sex, but who resist the temptation (non-practicing homosexuals), are not living in sin, and are therefore not excluded from church leadership.

True, we can’t help our feelings - even when they’re wrong – but we don’t have to give in to them. Some feelings are simply evil, and although we shouldn’t feel that way, we do. That’s life. We are, after all, a fallen people, bent and twisted in countless ways. To follow Christ is to give our lives to him and desire better for ourselves; to work with him to become un-twisted. That is the essence of sanctification.

The Bible doesn't have any message about "homosexuality." None. Didn't exist then, and it's an obsolete science theory/social construct, in America, today.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 1, 2009

Gregory... Once again.... Your argument is built upon semantics...

This...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Is totally in sync with this....

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

To willfully twist the Bible to meet your own ends, does not at all change the biblical message that homosexuality is an abomination...

.

"Homosexuality" isn't included as sexual immorality in the Bible because it didn't exist. Sexual immorality is predatory and alienating and irresponsible behavior like everything else on the Matthew list: evil thoughts...theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 1, 2009

Once again gregory... You're selling... I'm not buying...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

.

In any case, the "unnatural" is the impossible. Take a basic physics class, already. Sticking your elbow in your ear, now that's "unnatural."

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 1, 2009

The same could be said for the following being unnatural...

Public health records demonstrate that homosexuals, representing 2 percent of America's population, suffer vastly disproportionate percentages of several of America's most serious STDs, with incidences among homosexuals of diseases like gonorrhea, syphilis, hepatitis A and B, cytomegalovirus, shigellosis, giardiasis, amoebic bowel disease and herpes far exceeding their presence in the general population. These are due to common homosexual practices that include fellatio, anilingus, digital stimulation of the rectum and ingestion of urine and feces.

An exhaustive study in The New England Journal of Medicine, medical literature's only study reporting on homosexuals who kept sexual "diaries," indicated the average homosexual ingests the fecal material of 23 different men each year. The same study indicated the number of annual sexual partners averaged nearly 100. Homosexuals averaged, per year, fellating 106 different men and swallowing 50 of their seminal ejaculations, and 72 penile penetrations of the anus.

A study by McKusick, et al., of 655 San Francisco homosexuals reported that only 24 percent of the sample claimed to have been "monogamous" during the past year, and of this 24 percent, 5 percent drank urine, 7 percent engag-ed in sex involving insertion of a fist in their rectums, 33 percent ingested feces, 53 percent swallowed semen and 59 percent received semen in their rectums in the month just previous to the survey

http://www.marysremnant.org/Friends/DBK/BKHomAids.html

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If you're quoting a Bible with the "homosexual" word in it, there is no need to respect your opinion. Those are hate Bibles, period. Dr. Paul Cameron, from which you've gotten your alleged information, has long been exposed for exactly what he is. You really don't know what shame is, do you?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 2, 2009

Once again gregory... You're selling... I'm not buying...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

Gregory, you’re being willfully ignorant.

David Hardy has given you the scriptures which prove that homosexuality existed back then – and that God hates it - but you refuse to acknowledge them. You’re in rebellion against God, because you prefer your ways to His.

As you wrote:
”God doesn't condone idolatry…being God when one is not God.”

You’re right, so stop trying to be God! You don’t set the rules – He does. Morality is what God says it is – not what you say it is.
Universal sin is yet sin before God. It doesn’t matter if sinners form a community, in which they support each other’s sin – God still hates it. The gay community, insofar as it embraces homosexuality and practices it, is in sin. Period. Denial will not help; it will only estrange you from God.

An idol is anything you put before God; above God. In your case, it is homosexuality. You’re an idolater.

Gregory, you wrote:

”The Bible doesn't have any message about "homosexuality." None. Didn't exist then, and it's an obsolete science theory/social construct, in America, today.”

Wrong. Utterly, totally wrong. It existed back then and it exists today. Depraved sexual acts – man on man or woman on woman (that’s homosexuality, by the way) – have existed since sin came into the world. Numerous documents and articles talk of it existing millennia ago. A simple internet search will yield thousands of results. Here are just a few:

Paul Halsall: Homosexual Eros in Early Greece
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/greekeros.html

Homosexuality in the militaries of ancient Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece

History of homosexuality (including Africa, Americas, East Asia, Europe, Middle East, etc.)
The condemnation of anal sex between males, however, predates Christian belief. It was frequent in ancient Greece; "unnatural" can be traced back to Plato.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History

Do you get it? Homosexuality existed long ago.

You don't understand what "homosexuality" is. It's an obsolete science theory on sexology, and therefore value neutral, but has been found wanting in explanatory power.

But, we humans are pretty flexible, and "homosexuality," in America at least, is also an obsolete social construct. "Race" is a social construct as well, if you want an example of a powerful and evolving social construct.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 3, 2009

Once again gregory... You're selling... I'm not buying...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

.

Gregory Peterson wrote:
“You don't understand what "homosexuality" is."

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Ok, Gregory, what isn’t clear about that? Women having sex with eachother or men having sex with eachother is shameful and unnatural. That's homosexuality.

Is that clear? Do you get it?

What's wrong with this blog?

Even though my posts are under the 1,500 character limit, they aren't being posted. I keep getting:

"Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner."

Anybody know what the problem is here?

Is the webmaster on vacation?

Today, the charge of "unnatural" is a very wicked attempt to dehumanize one's neighbor...the "homosexual" is not a "natural" human, which means that he's not really a human, but something "unnatural." It's a prejudiced charge...a debased dehumanization of one's relatives and perhaps one's self.

The "unnatural" accusation reduces one's neighbor to just one component of his identity...his sexuality, which is rarely simple in humans, very unlike most other animals.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 3, 2009

If one takes your postulations at face value than there is no such thing as sin....

Once again Gregory... You're selling... I'm not buying...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

.

And while Gay people are not slaves (though of course, there likely were slaves with a same-sex sexual orientation, though that didn't exist either until recently...) the Gay community and GLBT individual can experience and has observed considerable and mostly unnecessary "minority stress."

There is some stress in being any kind of a minority person, even with such a minor thing as left handedness...which I think has about the same sort of degree of inherited predisposition as having a same-sex sexual orientation, come to think of it.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 3, 2009

Homosexuality is a choice... Homosexuals are not a constitutional minority, they are a minority of numbers only...

During the last 40 years the majority of SSA studies have been conducted, reviewed and/or published by homosexuality affirming researchers, many of whom are also openly homosexual. (1) Virtually all of the studies were touted by the media as proving that SSA is inborn. In reality, however, every one of them, from gene analysis, to brain structure, fingerprint styles, handedness, finger lengths, eye blinking, ear characteristics, verbal skills and prenatal hormones, have failed to be replicated, were criticized for research limitations, and/or were outright debunked.(3-7) This includes the widely publicized brain research of Dr. Simon LeVay,(8) and the gay gene research of Dr. Dean Hamer.

What the current political climate ignores is that the last forty years of data proves only a small biological contribution and a significant degree of sexual fluidity.

http://www.acpeds.org/index.cgi?BISKIT=6792&CONTEXT=art&cat=10005&art=167%3Cbr%3E

.

Gay people can have satisfying relationships, make a family, be pastors, doctors, soldiers..or be failures in life. People, Gay or not, do not need the sort of dubiously ethical "minority stress" heaped upon them by religious right activists and others.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 4, 2009

Slice, dice and obfuscate to your heart's content Gregory....

Homosexuality is still a free-will choice...

Once upon a time, the sexualities—heterosexual, homosexual, even bisexual—were categorical and mutually exclusive. Further, sexual attraction/desire, sexual behavior and sexual identity were assumed to be congruent: same-gender sexual attraction/behavior presupposed a gay or lesbian or bisexual identity, and other-gender sexual attraction/behavior assumed heterosexuality. But results of sexuality research over the last 20 years have turned our paradigm of sexuality on its head. What we’ve learned is that while these assumptions may be true for some, they are not true for all.

The truth is, Kinsey was right: sexuality not only exists on a continuum, some people may (and do) move on that continuum across the lifespan. The truth is, sexuality can be fluid, varying across time and situation. The truth is, sexual orientation appears to be comprised of many variables, not just sexual behavior. And the truth is, desire/behavior and orientation/identity do not always line up neatly. Some completely straight individuals have unexpectedly found themselves falling in love with, and being sexual with, those of the same gender, and some happily gay people have unexpectedly become partnered with those of the other gender.

http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-fluidity/

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So don’t worry if you’re not sure. If over time your attraction to members of the same sex continues to grow, it’s not a bad thing, it’s just who you are...

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 4, 2009

Once again Gregory... You're selling... I'm not buying...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

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Gregory Peterson wrote:
“Your abuse of clobber verses doesn't become you.”

I’ve noticed that when you don’t like a verse, you label it a “clobber verse” and then ignore it. That’s intellectually dishonest. Just because you ignore truth, doesn’t mean it will go away. It won’t.

2 Timothy 3:16
”All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

Is this also a clobber verse, because you don’t like it?

Gregory Peterson wrote:
“there likely were slaves with a same-sex sexual orientation, though that didn't exist either until recently...”

Wrong. It’s existed for millennia. Depraved sexual acts – man on man or woman on woman – have existed since sin came into the world. Numerous documents and articles talk of it existing long ago. A simple internet search will yield thousands of results. Here are just a few:

Paul Halsall: Homosexual Eros in Early Greece
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/greekeros.html

History of homosexuality (including Africa, Americas, East Asia, Europe, Middle East, etc.)
The condemnation of anaal sex between males, however, predates Christian belief. It was frequent in ancient Greece; "unnatural" can be traced back to Plato.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History

Do you get it? Homosexuality existed long ago, even before Christianity. To say it began recently is so utterly absurd that it makes you sound mentally unsound.

Ok, Gregory, let me try again. Here are two verses to look at:

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

What is meant in the first verse by “turned against the natural way,” is that they turned against the way God created things to be. We live in a fallen world, one where sin has broken the natural order. The “nature” we live under is corrupt and twisted – it isn’t the way the world is supposed to be.

God never intended for evil to be in the world; it is the result of the fall of man. Because of that we have hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, droughts, floods, blight, sickness, disease, death, wars, murder, theft, lies, deceit, corruption, fornication, adultery, and man-man/woman-woman sex. All of this is a deviation from the natural order. Though you look at these things as being in the world, and therefore part of the natural order, that isn’t what the Bible means here. It speaks of the natural order which God intended – not that which exists now.

Do you understand this? These verses use the terms “natural” and “normal” in a different sense than you use them. In the second verse, when it says “normal sexual relationships with women,” it means sexual relations as God intended them.

The “normal” and “natural” way, as God intends it, is for men to have sex with women. Men having sex with men, or woman with woman, is abnormal, unnatural, shameful, and sinful.

Do you finally understand this?

I read through these posts and all the arguments in support of the ECLA's recent decisions, and I think of the words of Gamaliel to the Sanhedrin nearly two thousand years ago:

"Ye know nothing at all."

Further comment is not only unnecessary, it would be the proverbial casting of the pearls to the swine. Those who take the written Word out of context and find any justification which they can possible scrape together for their position are obviously not in a frame of mind to be reasoned with.

We love the sinner, with the hope that this love will lead them to the Way, the Truth, and the Life, Who has power to restore them to natural affections. But wrangling and quibbling with them is altogether unprofitable. Scriptural truth is non-negotiable. It is God's Word and will judge us at the end. May God awaken all to this truth!

Paul likely didn't write Timothy.

Posted by: Gregory Petersong at September 7, 2009

Once again Gregory... You're selling... I'm not buying...

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right.

2Timothy 3:17 It is God's way of preparing us in every way, fully equipped for every good thing God wants us to do.

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

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C'mon, Gregory, go back and read my post where I explained the Biblical meaning of “natural” and “normal” to you.

Let me know if you understand it.

Another Denomination revisses the Bible to allow some sins as acceptalbe to their liberal leaning all sexual sin is special it defiles the temple of the Holy Spirit so a sin that is permisable hardly no sin is permisable. We are all sinners but to continue practicing a particular sin is not of God but of Satan can a person be forgiven but continue practicing that sin Heavens No this rule is against Christianity not a part of Christianity Homosexuality is a sin just as lying is a sin or stealing is a sin so the Church had better treat it as a sin or the church is nolonger the church or a part of Christianity this is the simple truth if a person ask for forgiveness and turns away from the sin then that person is forgiven but no one who continues in their rebellion against Jesus gift of salvbation is saved period end of discussion.
JBJr

Gregory - Gregory - where are you?

Are you in hiding?

Gregory, in my experience, the vast majority of people, when they find that their beliefs are in error, still refuse to change them. They fight the realization of truth, because they don't want to change. They're happy in their sin.

Is this you? Would you rather be happy in your sin, than repent and turn to God?

Sure, the Bible has an antipathy towards same-sex sexual activity here and there...but associates that, and many other things, with idolatry.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 11, 2009

Gregory... If you engage in an activity that is expressly condemned in the Bible as being an abomination in the eyes of God... You are rejecting God and engaging in idolatry....

immoderate attachment or devotion to something..

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idolatry

So once again... You are selling... I'm not buying...

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right.

2Timothy 3:17 It is God's way of preparing us in every way, fully equipped for every good thing God wants us to do.

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

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Especially when they're disrespecting the Bible so shamelessly and idolatrously with their superstitious-like abuse of clobber verses, instead of respectful to the Bible exegesis?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 15, 2009

Once again gregory... You're selling... I'm not buying...

Some people claim that homosexual behaviour was only condemned in the Bible because it was associated with idolatry (e.g. 1 Kings 14:24). However, it is clearly condemned apart from idolatry as well (e.g. Leviticus 18:22). It is described in Scripture as an unnatural, immoral perversion. ‘For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another …’ (Romans 1:26–27). The Greek word ‘arsenokoitai’ used in 1 Timothy 1:10 literally means ‘men who sleep with men’. It is the same Greek word used for ‘homosexual offender’ in 1 Corinthians 6:9, variously translated as ‘abusers of themselves with mankind’ (KJV), homosexuals (NASB) or homosexual offender (NIV).

Some people claim that the sin involved in Sodom was rejecting hospitality customs or selfishness rather than homosexual behaviour. Certainly, the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was great and their reported sin was grievous to God (Genesis 18:20). God sent angels to Sodom and ‘Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sex with them”’ (Genesis 19:4–5).

‘While it is true that the Hebrew word yadha does not necessarily mean “to have sex with”, nonetheless in the context of Sodom and Gommorah, it clearly had this meaning. … It means “to know sexually” in this very chapter when Lot refers to his two daughters not having “known” a man (19:8).9 You would not offer virgins to appease a mob if their sin was lack of hospitality, but only if their desire was sexual.

http://creation.com/homosexual-behaviour-v-the-bible

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The men of Sodam weren't interested in sex with Lot's daughters, if memory serves. It seems highly unlikely that they were all same sex oriented. They were interested in raping, not mere sex. Why do people rape others? Rape is often a violent assurtion of dominance. The rapist totally dominates the victim. Lot's daughters were already in a state of submission, being female. Lot's male guests, however, would have made healthy slaves.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at September 21, 2009

Once again Gregory... You're selling.... I'm not buying...

Jeremiah 23:14 But now I see that the prophets of Jerusalem are even worse! They commit adultery, and they love dishonesty. They encourage those who are doing evil instead of turning them away from their sins. These prophets are as wicked as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah once were."

2Peter 2:6 Later, he turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into heaps of ashes and swept them off the face of the earth. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people.

Jude 1:7 And don't forget the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with sexual immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and are a warning of the eternal fire that will punish all who are evil.

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right.

2Timothy 3:17 It is God's way of preparing us in every way, fully equipped for every good thing God wants us to do.

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

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Gregory you are right.
To compare modern day healthy homosexual relationship with Sodom is completely WRONG. IOne needs to actually read the bible and understand the cultural contest before throwing it in anyone's face.