Comments

I am just shock-stricken!! I knew this day would come, but hoped I wouldn't have to see it. I have raised my 3 children on Jim Dobson and FonF!! When they were toddlers' they would quote " F..on Fam..Pamona ...).haha. I can't "thank you" enough for all u have done for our family. An 'icon' to us. A pillar to our Christian Faith. A 'Paul' in this century. Soo many causes I would have not know about except for u and ur ministry!! I'm just numb!! I love u and Shirley so much I jis can't express. Please ask Danae and Ryan to consider carrying on the Ministry in yours and Jesus' behalf!! Millions and millions~~ They must b reached. Oh b blessed in ur retirement.
Love u soo much!!
Tom and Patty Patterson
Tyler,Niki, & Ashley

One of the most intolerant people in our society in the past 50 years.
His ministry is losing its appeal---many of these right wing Republican religious leaders have been discredited Much harm has been done by his negative message of exclusion and hatred.

It seems that Don H. does not realize that his definition and perspective of intolerance is skewed by his total lack of biblical and spiritual understanding as well as his total reliance and acceptance of a secular world view gone awry. How right Isaiah was in his utterance of those who look upon good as evil and evil as good, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, and who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter--Woe to you.

Patty,

God does not tolerate many things. The Bible is an absolute, and in the world today, people don't want to hear the truth, they would rather be "tolerant" and believe lies. James Dobson is not perfect, but in my opinion, he has done much to help keep our country walking in the truth it was founded on. He did a lot to help marriages and families to know how to function in a loving and functional way...a biblical way.
Read the Word, and get a Biblical worldview, and don't be influenced by what the leftest are feeding you.

After all, how "tolerant" is it in what your judgment call is on Dr.Dobson and the right wing religious leaders? How loving are you in the statement you made? Matthew 7:1-5

Amen to what God's prophet Isaiah spoke from the Lord! If I remember correctly God wasn't tolerant of most of what our culture is trying to call "tolerable"! Thank you Doc for being a Champion for truth!

I'm sorry Patty...I read the name of the comment incorrectly, and wanted to respond to Don H. Sorry!

All this love!!! :)

I wouldn't go so far as to call Dobson "one of the most intollerant" even if I disagreed with him on many things. He did however mistake his *interpretation* of the text for the text. I'm sure we'll see plenty more examples of that as the comments roll on.

Gotta love it when what you believe is "the obvious truth" so anyone that disagrees with you has something wrong with them. It's a whole lot easier to do that than it is to engage in substantive dialogue.

"The Bible is an absolute" - Jo Ann

Too bad our interpretation isn't.

Glad to see Dobson retire. A pleasant man, but too religious for my taste. Turned Jesus into a republican politician.

If anything, Jesus was a progressive agitator and ecclesial heretic... the antithesis of FOF.

Some time ago, I joined a golf club. The membership rules specifically stated that men who wore shorts must wear knee length sock, - a medieval culture to many of us newbies. Honwever, the president in his welcome address told us if we did not want to adhere to the rules - join another club. It may seem a silly story but as Christians, we are part of a very specdial fammily for whon our Lord God has made some rules. If we do not like them, we can leave or at very lest stop calling ourselves Christians. What are these rules - read your bible and they will all be revealed along with their purpose. Dr "D" is doing only that. Reading, often out loud and ensuring we know God's rules - not his or our - but God's. He will be missed.

Despite the hate and slurs uttered against him, James Dobson is the most gracious man I have ever met. His tolerance for people that don't share his point of view is amazing. I wish every one could meet he and Shirley and know how they really are, and not the hateful image given to him by those who have never met him. A gentlemen and a scholar; and a wonderful ambassador for Christianity over the years. Thank you Dr. Dobson!

Yes Don, Dobson should be thrown out there with Castro, Hilter, Huessein.

John L, maybe you got a little agitated by some simple Truth you couldn't dialogue with Patrick.

Since most of the comments here are character ASSassinations, and about as irrelevant to the blurb guised as an article above, let's just comment on the real travesty of "ecclesial" and organized religion, Mr. John L. Don't you think Jesus would use a fourteen piece drum kit to run the heretics out of the modern church instead of a whip?

This comment section is typical forum chatter that will end up with a bunch of mean-spirited idiots sharing the modern day mantra that human heart seems to be stuck on, "Go to Hell."
"Oh no, you go to hell."
"You like Dobson, so you go to hell."

Yes, we have certainly shown our tolerance in just five comments...

LOL

Irony is incarnated!

The polarization of these comments is interesting. If you want to see just how far the dialogue in society has broken down, look no further. Those from *outside* of evangelical culture know little to nothing about the ministry of FOTF in the 1980s-early 90s when it was much less political and really WAS just "focusing on the family" in the face of cultural forces arguably against family structure. Those *inside* evangelical culture seem to be completely unaware of, yes, incredible damage to the Church's reputation when in the latter 1990s onward Dobson took FOTF down an increasingly political, inconsistent, and (yes) right-wing direction - to the exclusion of many other conservative and moderate evangelicals, let alone those outside the Faith. If Dobson is so gracious (I don't know him), it remains utterly invisible to those outside of the Church. He certainly was not publicly to Christians who didn't share his worldview. His departure is way overdue.

Bill S. has it right. Check the history of FOF. What started as a family-oriented org became a political machine. Jesus as politician. Caesar guised in religious jargon. The same thing seems to be happening on the political left with org's like Sojourners.

My NT reading shows Jesus as generally subversive (or, at best, indifferent) to most political authority, not aligning himself with it. While claiming to represent Jesus, FOF has failed fundamentally in its use of political power to carry Spirit's voice.

We see similar dynamics today in Middle Eastern theocracies. Politics is by nature coercive, and uses political forces to maintain its power. The Spirit isn't, and doesn't. At least, not in the NT.

James Dobson will be sorely missed. Somehow I suspect he will continue to have a postive impact on our society in some new venue. Few have been as influential for the kingdom as he has been. His legacy is already strong and I affirm that he has lived up to the example his own godly father and mother set. I've listened to him since my own college days in the SF Bay Area in the late 70s and early 80s. He da man!

Thank you Bill. I believe Dobson was unnecessarily polarizing. I was and am "inside" the conservative, evangelical movement. Earlier on, I was an ardent supporter of FonF. As time went on, I could no longer listen to the program because it was more right wing republican than Christian. Somewhere along the way, there was not so much a focus on the family than a focus on political causes. So, I quit listening. Recently, I thought that perhaps I had been too harsh in my judgment, so I tuned in again. It was still too political. The unbelieving world must be enticed by the love of Christ in order to be won. It is the liberal Democrats that are our greatest mission field. We cannot win them with harshness and judgment. It is not Dobson’s message that bother me, it was his attitude and direction. I wish he had continued to focus on the family.

James Dobson helped my wife and I raise two level headed and successful, married, 30 somethings; I at the time considered him flawless. Looking back I believe many of us, myself included progressed a bit, considered a different look on some matters. Like a favorite uncle however, he is to be respected for his wisdom and common sense. He should be remembered for his contribution, as Millard Fuller should be for selflessly building homes for Gods children in need all over the world.

Patrick nailed it. I was a faithful listener to Dobson in the eighties and gained much good wisdom on rearing children from him, though I think he did exaggerate the presence of evil influences in our society at times even then. I became sick of listening to him in the mid nineties when his show became a political soapbox meant to give every listener a knee-jerk reaction to anything he deemed dangerous. Did somebody say that they thought Dobson's kids should take over for him? What is it with our evangelical thinking these days that believes any well-known christian leader should have his children succeed him? Leadership should come from people who have had to hew out their own beliefs and develop character qualities in the crucible of life in ANONYMITY, not from those who grew up watching a daddy who always had a microphone in front of his mouth and people waiting to hear his latest words.

Re. Dobson: "Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man." Luke 6:22. "woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets." Luke 6:26

Hey, anybody complainiing about James Dobson's apparent intolerance is demonstrating the degree of their own intolerance !!

I really love Dr. Dobson. I'm awfully sorry that he got entangled in politics, But what a great man of God!

I salute Dr. Dobson for his willingness to take abuse, insult, and character assassination from neo-fascist elements in the Gay-Lesbian movement and their friends in the media. He saw where this culture was heading to and he did his part in alerting the country about the menace this fascist movement with help from liberal politicians and apostasized church leaders will be causing the traditional family. His political involvement slowed down our culture's "slouching toward Gomorrah." For over 20 years he was the Benjamin Spock of evangelicals in child rearing. Media did not bother to take note of him. They discovered him only after he started taking political positions that media boys and girls and their co-belligerents in the Gay Lesbian movement found detrimental to their political and cultural agenda. All on a sudden Dr. Dobson, a clinical psychologist and former faculty member at USC Medical School, became "Rev. James Dobson," some ignorant fundamentalist preacher. I haven't read about Dr. Dobson lashing out on his adversaries like some of the bloggers in this pages do. He had class and he had grace, which some of the bloggers here who wait to do character assassination to him lack. May God raise up more fearless leaders like him!

Dr Dobson...I thank you! I thank you that as a new Christian in 1979 you taught me all news ways to be a successful single parent to my 7 year old. Thank you that you gave me confidence as a woman to finish my degree in 1991 at Liberty University (thank Jerry Farwell also). Thank you Dr Dobson for your wonderful books and radio program that nurtured my daughter and me through her teens. Thank you Dr Dobson for your wisdom shared that my daughter is now a career missionary. Thank you for drawing me to move here to COS and have now been in full time Christian service the past 13 years. Thank you Dr Dobson and may your retirement be blessed. You have helped millions of parents to raised their children to become mature Christian adults. Thanks DOC, you are the best!

As disappointing as it is to read some of the hateful, intolerant comments in this thread, I suppose it is to be expected. I have been a close friend of Dr. Dobson for over a decade and have listened to his broadcast daily for 30 years. I can assure you that the typical characterizations of the man in secular media (and therefore among much of the public who do not know him) do not at all represent who he is. I've seen his heart, I've watched his example close-up for years, and he is easily one of the greatest men of integrity I have ever known, or will ever know. Say what you will, but the proof is in the pudding. Not many in this world, including those who are quick to criticize, could withstand such scrutiny in their own lives. So, while there is room for your opinions to be shared, be careful about casting stones at Dr. Dobson. Examine yourself first.

Dr. Dobson has compassionately, but firmly stood up for the defenseless pre-born babies, children, marriages, single parents, and the down-trodden, as well as kept millions of people informed about issues they care about. Over 95% of his regaular listeners have fully supported his speaking out on issues that affect families across America. And he has sacrificed 32 years of his life as a volunteer for FOF. God Bless you, Dr. Dobson. No one has said you were perfect. But, you're a very good man, with a good heart, who has lived by godly principles. I know it, and God knows it. Thank you.

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I'm very thankful for Dr. Dobson and his ministry; he helped me raise a family when there were few people to step into the gap. As I read the messages, I just pray for those that have yet to "see the light" of love and truth. We can speak the word and allow the Holy Spirit to do the rest. Praise God for men that are not afraid to speak...these days are quickly ending.

Christians from romania country thanks to mr. Dobson for his help. We recognize the inportance of his books in our nations.

No matter how you feel about him, Dr. Dobson saw things coming and warned us about it for years. He has always watched the law and rulings and told us what the "snowball" effect would be. And all these years later, if you go back and look, he was right many, many times. Thank you Doc. for taking a stand when others said it would be okay. It's not!

I was taught as a Boy Scout over 65 years ago that being brave was doing what was right regardless of the consequence. if it were jumping in a freezing lake to rescue a child or yanking them from in front of a speeding car. The brave man faces danger to his children, his country with the same desire to do what is right according to his epistemological basis. As an active minister of over 55 years, the father of 10, grandfather of 22 and great grandfather of 14 I learned long ago that one size will not fit all, nor was I always right. But I have learned much from Dr. D, when he was so right, and when he got on the wrong road for a short drift right. I thank God for him and his family that are leaders also.

I remember what a breath of fresh air james dobson was back in the mid-70's when he 1st aired for about 15 mins daily. For yrs my wife & I listened to him & devoured his books. Ever so gradually, after he began to go rigidly rigtward, I lost interest (& a certain degree of respect). I suspect many others abandoned his ship for the same reason.Like all of Christ's followers he will stand before God to give an accounting of his life. For all Christians there will be both reward & loss. None of us live our lives perfectly including James Dobson. May God bless this good, yet flawed man, in the autumn of his life.

dr.dobson will be missed now and in the future when we need a voice of reasoon from the biblical perspective, we would not be talking about him if he wasnt a true man of god not afraid of polotics or talking heads or bloggers who wouldnt know bible truth if it bit them. may god richlt bless you in your retirement

Don H.

I see you call Dobson intollerant and that dosnt't iclude you also? I would challenge you to compare his life with yours. Have you hired, built a large ministry, impacted so many lives for good? Can we sum up who you are by your comment? You want to trash a Christian man and his ministry that spans decades because it didn't meet your standard. There are many members yet one body. Christians have every right to be involved in civic life as it has a direct impact on good and evil in our society. There are far worse characters to attack then Dr. Dobson. If he is "right wing" does that make "left wing" or a Moderate (non-commital and complacent)
Have many have you shared the gospel with? What would your family, neighbors, and co-workers say about your Christian witness? Its likely most of you who critized him could not do half of the good this man has. Go and do better then Dr. Dobson if you can, for the Kingdom of God. He would have no problem with it.

If you read the article from the Link at the beginning of the blog then you would realize that Dobson is also cutting his ties with FoF. The fact that he will no longer be the host does not mean that his voice will no longer be heard. One of the crucial issues here is the future of FoF because Dobson realizes that he is Persona non Grata among many of those within and without the circle of Evangelicalism. Let's keep an eye on this issue.

Thank the Lord. Jim Dobson has been mixing politics and religion, contributing to the non-existent "cultural war" in America, for too many years. As a child psychologist, he was a superb commentator; as a political contributor, he helped to maintain the unnecessary communication gaps between the various religious traditions in our blessed country.

Dobson has done more good than any poster here could possibly imagine. All the sniping... quite disheartnening. Maybe CT should shut done its com boxes since they are abv such occasions for sin.

Oh, I will miss Dr. Dobson so much. We raised my three children on his advice and still use his books and are inspired by his programs as we are now raising a granddaughter. What a wonderful Christian man with a compassionate heart for those in need and for the lost.

Jim says "Maybe CT should shut done its com boxes since they are such occasions for sin"

This is the kind of thinking that FOF is well known for - human power (censorship) posing as spiritual power; political solutions to spiritual problems.

"Hateful and intolerant comments" directed towards Dobson? I don't see them here. He's a smart, successful man. FOF has done many good things. I think we all wish him well in retirement, and in life.

None of this changes the fact that FOF is predominantly a politcal machine wrapped in religious garb. That's the problem. Jesus subverted the world system. FOF has become conformed to it.

John L. and John
You must be reading a different Bible than I am. My reading says Jesus was the most pro-life person in all of mankind. He was also the most pro-marriage person in history, providing NO reason for divorce, or at best, ONLY in case of adultery. Yes, he was about helping the poor but NOT by the Government but by individuals.(you could probably throw in churches as well today)
If you haven't been around lately, you should note that Christianity (and Dobson) is the counter-culture (and subversive movement) of today.

Pete, politics can force laws, but cannot change hearts. You are confusing the two, as does FOF. We agree that marriage and life and philanthropy are sacred. But, unlike FOF, Jesus didn't employ politics to affect these (or any other) spiritual ideals.

Trusting in political power to change hearts mocks the very Spirit we claim to serve. "Liberal" and "Conservative" are simply two sides of the same fallen enterprise.

Thank you Dr.Dobson, along with his gracious family, for the bless-ed help provided with such care and love to struggling families, especially families in America's heartland thru radio. Thank you for being so gracious and Christ-like in your responses to those who "heard" the Word of our Lord thru your ministry, but have chosen to berate the messenger! We pray that even in the future some who had made unkind retorts will, in some quiet moment sometime, will reflect and have a life-changing experience. Thank you again, Dr. Dobson; I know you really can't "retire" so we look forward to next chapters!

All of this discussion about tolerance and intolerance...hummm,I wonder if this is how some of the prophets felt as they were trying to speak out for God, give His message, and get the people, as a nation, to respond and get back on track? They were ridiculed, hated, tortured and even killed! But all the things they said, came to pass...but those that had turned from God didn't believe them when they were trying to tell them to turn from their ways, and what the Lord was going to do if not.

While we know Dr. Dobson is not perfect, a sinner, like the rest of us...we have to give him credit for standing up and reminding our country of God's principes...I am glad that there are voices out there standing up for righteousness and not being afraid of ridicule...I'm sure Dr. Dobson has faced much opposition in his ministry, and yet has been faithful in serving God. By the way...Our God is a Holy God...the only righteous and fair Judge...we are not...and I am so glad that He keeps tabs!!

Focus on the Family failed to focus on the main thing destroying American families- materialism and greed. The Bible (and clearly Jesus) is very clear about this "you cannot serve God and Mammon [money]". Yet our society is all about 'profit', achieving the American dream (material affluence), and spending billions on our military to protect our power and affluence. By ignoring this major, root sin in our society Dobson and FoF actually support our nation's decline and the destruction of sane, healthy families.

Thank you, Dr. Dobson you were one of the reason I can to the LORD. I love the way you delivered the word of GOD through your family values, and down to earth logic. My only regret is when you added the politics. Good Luck and all my best to you and Sherily.

Materialism and greed? High salaries for management. I can post them if you wish. Also, 11% of funds for administration 18% for fund raising. Give to the Gideons---100% goes to purchasing Bibles. Dobson, Lindbbaugh, Hannity and the rest of the Fox crowd make millions God will be the judge of prosperity thumbing clergy.
Those of you who like to be told what to believe will continue to praise this politician preacher. Soul Freedom PTL Don H.

Well, my experience with the program was pleasant actually. I grew up listening to Dr. James Dobson's program and FOTF. All I remember is I heard bible stories come to life, and every time I ever emailed FOTF about anything, I got a very loving response back, and they have even sent me a free book that I had wanted, and didn't have any money to donate or pay for. I've read great family oriented articles. As far as the political part goes, idk, maybe he did go off on a bit of a political tangent, but that never stood out to me. The only stuff that stood out to me was the Family oriented stuff, and there has been plenty. Also, I have read a few of Dr. Dobson's books, and they really helped me out a lot in some of the situations I was dealing with. They gave me a very nice clear biblical perspective. I'm sorry some of you feel the need to slam his reputation. No christian is perfect, and sometimes as christians, we do the wrong thing for the right reasons. We most certainly are not here to judge. I think Dr. Dobson did the best he knew how, and anything he didn't do right, he will answer to God for that one day. I wish Dr. James Dobson the best in the rest of his life. He has made a pleasant impact on mine.

Dobson is an arrogant, pretentious, devisive,dangerous phony!!!

It is great to see his evil empire shrinking!!

"Getting naked in the shower with your young son(s) to "show what a MAN looks like and then preventing the "SIN" of becoming gay"--what a perverse nut case!!!!

Check this URL:

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/dobson.html

Dobson-a phony with sick political and amoral agendas.

People like Dobson, Robertson, Reed, Falwell and their ilk are the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus Christ

Always liked Jim Dobson. He has often been criticized for his emphasis on family values but I think this is unwarranted. After all, why wouldn't a man who grew up in the shadow of a great dad and a loving mom feel deeply its positive effect. Isn't it perfectly natural that a healthy and whole personality would want to see the same benefit in others. Kudoes to Jim for doing what most people have failed to do - loving the less fortunate. I have spent a lifetime recovering from the negative effects of a family gone awry. Dr. Dobson has been a true resource for someone who hasn't always known the right way to love a wife and raise children.

'Focus on the Anus' it should be called, because of its absolute obsession with gay male sex. The poltics of narrow-mindedness and closed-heartedness only serve to bastardize and exploit the name of our Lord and Saviour.

Focus on the Family and Dr. James Dobson have stood many time in the line of fire when it comes standing up for the faith and saving grace of our God. It's nver easy nor glamour in the worlds eyes to stand firm and be unwaivoring in the solid, sound teaching of the bible such homosexual life style, abortion, the sancity of marriage between and man and woman, our God given calling to stand up for what we believe in and to know that our treasure are not stored up here on earth but in Heaven. Dr. James Dobson has not take the easy road, he has chosen to be a Godly man in a world that hates everything we stand for. I praise all he has done and he will be greatly missed. It is the ignorance and intolarance of those who spend more time justifying their own sinful life that will slander men such as Dr. Jame Dobson, Billy Graham, John Wesley and on.

Have you read the Dr. Dobson's Focus on the Family websites? FotF is obviously about racist-like hatemongering and scapegoating of Gays and other people. They're sickening and quite depraved...FotF is little better than the white citizen's councils of my youth, of which FotF relies recapitulates for it's political and theological tactics. FotF does not know the meaning of intellectual and moral integrity. You should be quite ashamed of yourselves for defending Dr. Dobson. Really, how do you sleep at night, anyway?

I recently talked with a FotF admirer...more that that I think, at a strikingly duplicitous anti-abortion event. Talk about lacking in intellectual integrity...Talk about the banality of evil. She admitted that she believed in states' rights, the political theory of white privilege. This has been so since the 1850's. Anyone who has lived in the Bible Belt knows exactly what state's rights is about. It's what Confederates said they fought for, what racists praised, what Strom Thurmond named his Dixiecrat party...Yet, she denied that she was a racist, she just believed in racist politics.

She said she opposed marriage equality because "Homosexuals" don't reproduce. (They can if they wish, give me a break.) If marriage equality happens, you see, the population will crash and civilization will disappear. Everyone will then marry same-sex partners. Who knew other-sex marriages were so disgusting and horrible that everyone would abandon them for same-sex marriages, if they were legal? What a pathetically evil person...but she represents what I see on FotF's websites quite closely.

A Gay relative died last week. (Not from anything in a "Homosexual" lifestyle, but tragically, from a fairly common disease.) I'm not in a good mood and probably should have skipped this. But, FotF is directly responsible for encouraging minority stress in every Gay person's life. Dr. Dobson and his smarmy, silk-tie hate organizations have a lot to answer for.

Thanks Gregory for your comments. You have seen personally the harm that comes from F on t F. Compare Dobson, to Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reily and the rest of the self-righteous group.
What joy can there be in spending millions of dollars to keep people from having equal rights. The constitution is the guiding document of our country. The Bible is very important, but it should not be used to beat up others. How about using the millions to feed the hungy, provide minimum health care to 40 million Americans--build affordable housing. dh

I was raised on Dr. Dobson, and have just sent him a letter requesting his assistance to help me stop loosing faith in the Christian Church. My Mom respects Dr. Dobson as much or more than any other Christian leader, and she is interested to see his response. I only started learning the truth about the 9/11 attacks last fall. It took me an entire year to convince my own parents to listen to me, and begin reviewing the evidence for themselves. Now that they have thoroughly and objectively taken a fresh look into all the available evidence, they too are now aware of how badly we have been deceived. They now fully support my mission to find out what really happened to 2,993 of our fellow countrymen that fateful September morning. My mom is very interested to see if/how Dr. Dobson will respond. Please read my open letter to Dr. Dobson and share your thoughts at.........

http://blandyland.com/?p=459

Does Christ's Church really stand for TRUTH & JUSTICE? That is the question!

Daniel Edd Bland III
www.BlandyLand.com

I want to say that Dr. Dobson is one of the most faithful Christians that America has seen and heard on the airways. It is clear to me as a pastor that the negative things that have been written on here have come from people who do not understand the Scriptures or the call God has for His watchmen. Dobson is not only an exceptional counselor and doctor, but he is also a prophet and a role model for a whole generation of pastors and ministry leaders. Dr. Dobson, I salute you as one of the greatest men of God this generation has seen, I pray that God will raise up another generation of men and women of your caliber amid a flailing evangelicalism that is influenced by the emergent church heresy. Thanks you for all you have done for the Kingdom of God. In Christ, Dr. Jon Mark Vermilion

It is too bad that people come on here and spread their sinful lifestyles, rather than have hearts of repentance, they blame the man of God. The first step to becoming a Christian is to repent of your sins. To boast and to blame others proves that your heart is not yet soft to the Gospel. Jesus said, "I have come that you may have life and have it to the full." New life beings with repentance and turning to Jesus Christ for forgiveness. Dr. Jon Vermilion

I can understand after reading your blog, Dr. Vermillion, why Dr. Dobson is such a hero to you. Figures that you would call marriage equality "tyranny." I'm grateful that I "do not understand the Scriptures or the call God has for His watchmen." If, that state of understanding means doing as you and Dr. Dobson do.

I see that your church's statement of faith doesn't include the Golden Rule. The usage of "regenerate" and "regeneration" is interesting. My understanding of scripture is not a Calvinistic understanding. The sociology/politics of identity contexts of scripture are fun challenges. But then, I am an artist with a degree in sociology.

Biblical inerrancy, however, looks idolatrous to me, even if it is an article of your faith. I think it's not a coincidence that inerrancy was essentially invented as a foundational doctrine when challenges to slavery came into being a couple of centuries ago, and inerrancy became the central legitimization of Protestant and Evangelical slavery, racist and/or Jim Crow apologists.

As Bayard Rustin pointed out, however" "Racism isn't just about black and white." What is, while not strictly skin color racist today, nevertheless racist-like?

Thanks you for your honesty Gregory. Christianity has certainly had people within its walls who validated sin in the name of God (the Crusades, inquisition, etc...). I do believe however if you look at the entire movement from Christ until now, there has been much more good that has come than evil. It was William Wilberforce, a Christian, who fought long and hard to have slavery band throughout the United Kingdom. It was Martin Luther King JR.(A Baptist minister) who led the charge for civil rights in America. Going back further into time, it was Martin Luther who stood up to the oppression of the Roman church in the 1500's. Luther was both a religious and a socio-political change agent. John Calvin was used to bring great reform in Geneva and gave women rights and protection against abusive husbands. As you mention, we do believe in the inspiration and authority of the Bible, because we also believe in God's sovereignty. If God is indeed God, then it stands to reason that He is able to give us an accurate record about Himself. Christians appear as discriminatory when we call sin sin in an age that has abandoned the absolutes of God. Do you think we hold the position that marriage is between a man and a woman only because we want to discriminate? Christians hold this position, because God has spoken and in this arrogant age where people will not submit to God or His Word, the only rule is subjective, human opinion. I am sure Charles Manson believes that murder is okay. In fact, the same 10 Commandments that say "No adultery" also say "NO murder" I don't here anybody asking to have the murder laws repealed. Why not? Because no one wants murder legalized because it effects their comfort. But eh same God who said "No Murder" also says that marriage is between a man and a woman. We cannot pick and choose what we like that God says and discard the rest. When we understand God correctly, we see that He sent Jesus to give us an abundant life and it begins the moment we repent (turn from our sins) to Him. I would encourage you to take that step if you have not already. You will find that God is waiting for you and He is indeed good.

I went to a college on the edge of the Texas end of the Bible Belt, so let me rephrase what I heard then in your style:

...Do you think we hold the position that marriage is between a man and a woman of the same race only because we want to discriminate? Christians hold this position, because God has spoken and in this arrogant age where people will not submit to God or His Word, the only rule is subjective, human opinion...

Of course, this was arrogance in the extreme, a self righteous pretense to humbleness and real righteousness.

I would say, yes, they did want to discriminate, and for the same reasons with which you likely want to discriminate against GLBT people today...without trying to manipulate me with an obvious pretense of good will. I wasn't born yesterday...I'm closing in on Sixty. Even I have learned a thing or two in my journey through life.

Why they likely wished to discriminate back then: Greed for "the Others'" jobs, influences and resources; fear of competition from "the other" for jobs...such as leadership positions in say...their church; generalized and carefully nurtured xenophobia; a perverse need for a handy scapegoat' ill will that wasn't a pretense at all; an idolatrous worship of allegedly "traditional" bigotries instead of thinking about the Golden Rule as it applied to to their here and now; a congealed, constipated, blinkered, self serving reading of the Bible...and doubtless more, of which I'm not entirely innocent of, myself...at times, or which I hpe were few.

As God is unknowable, an assumption that's the bedrock of monotheism as I understand it, why would I expect the Bible to be an "accurate record of Himself?" We can't know that even if it is a "fact." I don't do "facts" anyway, I do probability...and that's a fact...lol.

Our reading of the Bible will necessarily have to be "subjective, human opinion"...which is why I noted that the Golden Rule isn't mentioned in your church's articles of faith. Without that, what can come about from such a reading of the Bible? The Golden Rule is the Holy Spirit guidence, at least to me, when reading the Bible. When I read the Bible, I don't get what conservatives get.
..for which I'm grateful. But, how do I know that I'm being guided by the Holy Spirit, and that conservatives aren't? I can't. I hope that I am, and that "they" will be, if not now, sooner than later.

If a vaguely remembered, quite superficial gloss about Khalid Abou el Fadl, on reading the Koran, applies to sacred text in general, and likely not so sacred text as well:

If I got it right, he thinks, more or less, that the morality one extracts from the text depends upon the morality one brings to the text.

I don't know what morality Abou el Fadl brings to the Koran, but as The Golden Rule is the basis of the morality with which I was taught...that's what I hope I bring to my traditional sacred text, the Bible. I don't read the Bible to teach me morality. I already have that. It can be buffed up and rehearsed with help from Bible stories, but it's not likely to substantially change as long as I'm in my right mind anyway. But then, I could be wrong about that.

I don't live up to the morality in which I was raised as a northern Great Plains United Methodist, sometimes for the good...but at it's core, it is the Golden Rule, however ineptly I practice it, as I was taught in Sunday School as well as by my parents and grandparents...however they may sometimes had not practiced what they preached.

I read the Bible to learn something about humanity, not how other people, such as Gay people, should live today (though as I was raised a Methodist, feel free to ask me exactly how you should live...lol.)

What I learn is a bit of what it took to be a monotheist back then...which I can compare and contrast with what it takes to be a monotheist today. From that, I can learn something more important than how to live my mundane (which is nice in its way), rather sickly-ish life. (Thank you mutant DNA...)

What do I learn? Comparing and contrasting how we lived, how we live; how we died, how we die, teaches me something. Great fun, too. Thatt might make me a more Godly person, but that's not important in itself. I'll die someday, likely in the next thirty years or so, and likely be quickly forgotten.

God will judge me as I was taught, but...from what I know of the universe today, God likely will consign me to an unimaginable nothingness...which is fine with me (at this time...I reserve the right to change my mind as I grow older.) At least I wouldn't ever know that I had died...or have to share heaven with people I don't approve of...such as Dr. Dobson.

What is really important to me as a somewhat needy person is... Kindness without expecting a payback, which I can't always give...and therefor shouldn't expect from others when I, somewhat capriciously, try that kindness, mercy and charity thing myself.

Judging from conservative monotheists today: maintaining a conservative monotheistic identity and lifestyle often appears to me to be about the ethically challenged manipulation and emotional blackmailing of others into conforming to an authoritarian lifestyle, which, often seems (but hardly always) antithetical to the Golden Rule as I understand it. As an artist, I've never done that conforming thing at all well...sometimes to my intense regret (but I get over it).

How the wisdom of the world was remade into monotheistic wisdom...or rejected, is quite interesting to me at this time. How the ancients created, maintained, and affirmed a monotheistic identity in an age of rampant, polytheistic idolatry takes up a large amount of Bible.

Don't do as the Egyptians and Canaanites do, as Leviticus demands...sometimes seemed to inhibit the 'Good Samaritan' action back then...and likely does so even today...even with me.

The people who passed by the gravely injured man, leaving him to die, all had chapter and verse reasons, which they no doubt had memorized, as to why they thought it was necessary to do so...but as the parable suggests, the larger context of the Golden Rule overrides what they thought...we think...is God's Law.

Gay people aren't gravely injured like the man in the parable, but Gay people, in general I think, are often stressed by bigotry, bigotry legitimized by an abuse of clobber verses, and dubious appeals to an "innerant" authority, which my reading of the Bible doesn't support. Dealing with minority stress may, in some people anyway, induce unwise, fatalistic behavior in the stressed minorities, which for the GLBT peoples, Dr. Dobson and yourself are not so tacitly, if maybe inadvertently, encouraging...which, of course, it then used against them in dubiously moral ways...on the part of Focus on the Family anyway.

God may have made marriage for a man and a woman, or women as was sometimes the case (an assumption, not necessarily a fact, whatever a "fact" is), but the Bible doesn't condemn other familial relationships if they are sincere, Golden Rule based, I think.

The Bible condoned slavery, for instance, but that didn't mean that my great grandfather had to condone slavery because there were copious clobber verses that were being used to bludgeon people into conformity with proslavery wishes. The Golden Rule, radically interpreted, was more important than a literalist reading of God's Law.

There is no temple of Aphrodite around the corner from me, but a small, non-denominational church instead. So, what is idolatry today? Well, I obviously think that literal interpretation of the Bible is one contemporary idol which I should reject. Would that I would reject more, but...I'm distracted by life.

I've read in CT, several times, in which a "homosexual" clobber verse is paired up with...well, read this from docsouth.unc.edu instead. You'll get the idea.

LECTURES
ON THE Philosophy and Practice OF SLAVERY, AS EXHIBITED IN THE INSTITUTION OF DOMESTIC SLAVERY IN THE UNITED STATES: WITH THE
Duties of Masters to Slaves.

BY
WILLIAM A. SMITH. D. D.,

PRESIDENT OF RANDOLPH-MACON COLLEGE, AND PROFESSOR OF MORAL AND
INTELLECTUAL PHILOSOPHY. 1856

"It is evident that the Jews brought slaves with them from Egypt; for the terms of the Decalogue not only imply that they were familiar with domestic slavery, but also that it was, at that time, an existing practice among them. But more than this, the Decalogue is strictly the constitution which Jehovah himself gave to the Jewish nation. Now to assume that he provided in this constitution to protect in all time to come (for it is allowed to embody immutable principles) a relation which was, in; itself, an iniquity, is more than a mere absurdity--it is profanity. And it is certain that the tenth article of this constitution provides to protect the right of property in slaves: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's MAN-SERVANT, nor his MAID-SERVANT, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's."

The Saviour has recognized this law, as it was originally designed to be, of universal obligation and force: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matt. v. 17."

The context of the homosexual clobber verses is usually within fertility cult idol worship rites, from Moloch/Baal in Leviticus to Aphrodite in Corinthians. This isn't controversial in respectable theological circles. Both Moloch and Aphrodite, I think, had "seed sacrifices" by males to males...and temple prostitutes of all genders.

Life was thought to begin at the moment of ejaculation, so a "seed sacrifice" was sacrificing a life to the god or goddess. Or course, the concept that there is a "moment" when life begins is quite silly today. Life, quite probably, began a very long time ago. There is no life beginning "moment," but a process which we can continue or end, but not begin...at this time anyway.

My Bible doesn't support legal inequality of Gay people, in marriage, in anything. "Homosexuality" didn't exist until late Victorian times anyway, as now obsolete but somewhat sympathetic, back then, science theory....which later migrated to America where theory became a now rejected social construct. People aren't science specimens, and usually prefer their own historical, communally informed names and labels...such as "Gay," instead of "homosexual."

More than fifty years of sociological and psychological research, which often started with ignorant presumptions from traditional bigotries (hey, one has to start somewhere), refute most everything that the religious right, in general, says about same-sex orientation. Gay isn't "intrinsically disordered." "Gay" isn't a pathology. "Gay" isn't caused by paternal distance etc. Same sex orientations just happen, for reasons that are merely mildly interesting if we should find them. Moral people don't care if someone is Gay, unless they're looking for a date.

The Bible condoned all sorts of marriages, physical, metaphorical and metaphysical?...sometimes for reasons we find immoral today...such as forcing a woman to marry her rapist, or forcing a widow to marry and have sex with her brother in law/husband...regardless of his marital status. They may have made some sort of moral sense back then, but they don't now...and prohibiting same-sex marriages is one of those things that no longer makes moral sense, if it ever did.

If you made it this far...sorry for the rambling trip. But, have a little kindness for me...I'm kind of distracted by other things.

Dobson-a phony with sick political and amoral agendas.

People like Dobson, Robertson, Reed, Falwell and their ilk are the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus Christ

Posted by: redjim9 at November 2, 2009

Redjim...

And by the fruits of your post we can gather no more than sour grapes..

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'Focus on the Anus' it should be called, because of its absolute obsession with gay male sex. The poltics of narrow-mindedness and closed-heartedness only serve to bastardize and exploit the name of our Lord and Saviour.

Posted by: MollyT at November 6, 2009

Molly...

It is obvious that you are not a mollifier...

And it is obvious that you have vey little biblical knowledge regaring the detestible practice of homosexuality...

For your convienience...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

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Have you read the Dr. Dobson's Focus on the Family websites? FotF is obviously about racist-like hatemongering and scapegoating of Gays and other people. They're sickening and quite depraved...FotF is little better than the white citizen's councils of my youth, of which FotF relies recapitulates for it's political and theological tactics. FotF does not know the meaning of intellectual and moral integrity. You should be quite ashamed of yourselves for defending Dr. Dobson. Really, how do you sleep at night, anyway?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at November 8, 2009

Ah Gregory...

I see that you are once again attempting to play the implausible theory of the homosexual race card...

That dog won't hunt Gregory..... Not now... Not ever...

Race is an inborn characteristic....

The practice of homosexuality is a reprehensible, free-will choice behavior...

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Biblical inerrancy, however, looks idolatrous to me, even if it is an article of your faith.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at November 18, 2009

Gregory...

News Flash!!!

To take God at his word is not idolatry...

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..for which I'm grateful. But, how do I know that I'm being guided by the Holy Spirit, and that conservatives aren't? I can't. I hope that I am, and that "they" will be, if not now, sooner than later.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at November 19, 2009

Gregory...

It is very obvious that one of us is being led by Satan and the other is being led by the Holy Spirit...

You choose to call those of us who view the Bible as God's word to be idolatrous.. You reject absolute truth... You therefore reject God's word... And by so doing... You reject God...

I seek God's wisdom within the pages of the Bible and I depend very much upon the Holy spirit to guide me...

Just like the Master said...

John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

John 16:14 He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me.

John 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.

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Proverbs 26:4-5

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you will be like him yourself.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26:4-5

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you will be like him yourself.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Posted by: Nick at November 20, 2009

Nick..

With God's help, I'm doing just that very thing...

Thanks for the encouragement...

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