Comments

Jesus was a refugee? A refugee is one forced to flee his home, country of origin, or both, against his/her will. Jesus remained within his country of origin. All his travels were of his own accord. He broke no laws of Israel or any other nation in his travels. In fact, in rendering what was due to Caesar, he paid his taxes to the state. He also lived out in the open, not in hiding. The designation by Anderson of Jesus as a refugee is way off the mark.

The doors are covertly opening again to another illegal immigration invasion. We now discerned that religious organizations are trying to use their congregations as a fulcrum to apply president Obama's Immigration reform package. It's in my mind that just people of the Baptist faith like myself, who are ardent worshipers, but whoever live in the stark veracity of real-time. Many are aware of the dangers of leniency for lawbreakers, that will be even more magnified by not only those already here, but the destitute restless people waiting for the--AMNESTY--bell to clang? It’s utterly irrational to expect that millions more will not tear across our borders? Yes! They will greatly benefit, but what about the 15 million jobless Americans?

There is no possible way Citizens and legal residents can compete in this deep recession, against the poor of other countries? An avalanche of the young and old that will devour billions of more dollars from government handouts, to not only clothe, medicate, shelter and feed them, but the illegal laborers wages partly transferred abroad? Churchgoers may think they are doing god's work, but what they are actually doing is stealing the bread from American children's table, low income families lifeline of paying for gas to get them to work, pay for an apartment? The magnet of course is the inevitable abhorrent businesses, who will solicit for minimum wage illegal aliens to build on their profits. THIS IS WHY WE MUST DEMAND NATIONWIDE E-VERIFY! A COMMITMENT FROM THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO MAKE IT MANDATORY FOR EVERYONE WHO HAS A JOB, TO BE VETTED. THAT NOBODY SHOULD BE EXEMPT. PENALTIES FOR NOT UTILIZING E-VERIFY, SHOULD BE EXEMPLARY? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AMERICAN LIVES IN TURMOIL, BECAUSE JOBS ARE BEING STOLEN BY ILLEGAL WORKERS.Its operation will draw to the surface illegal labor who should not be here. We should inform ICE of anybody hiring illegal immigrants or you have suspicion of underpaid workers. My church pastor on the outskirts of Indianapolis has been playing on the congregation’s sensitivities, but the good man was unable to answer the torrent of questions?

Least of all myself, who explained how the Council of Foreign Relations has been planning for years, to incorporate Mexico and Canada with ourselves, to import an unceasing flow of cheap labor? Or that the ACLU was founded by a communist or that groups like the Southern Poverty league was substantially financed by the business community, to undermine the reputations of anti-illegal immigrant groups. That even the radical ethnic caucuses such as La Raza was furnished by grants from our own government or corporate concerns. That in actual fact--WE--are paying the price tag as taxpayers for our own downfall? Unless a large majority of the population yells down the phone-lines at 202-224-3121 this nation will become a balkanized society?

This country was built on the strength of one language, one Judeo-Christian culture. Multicultural societies usually collapse, as in the Middle East. Even in the developed countries of Europe, their is a tenuous unsettled calm that will erupt finally over both legal and illegal immigration. Even America cannot support millions more people in their vehicles on eroding highways and surface streets. Our infrastructure has been blatantly ignored for years, bridges in urgent disrepair. We remain mostly alone in fighting foreign wars and other countries are telling us, that the dollar is unlikely to be the main trading currency. Then we have programmed political idiots we elected telling us, we need to pass a path to citizenship for the 20 million plus unfortunate peasant who illegally crossed our border.

WHERE IS THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS COMING FROM TO SUPPORT THE POOR PEOPLE OF THE WORLD? THE TAXPAYERS POCKET OF COURSE? My faith is very important to me, but that doesn't mean I'm going to commit financial suicide. Let these illegal aliens get there own governments in order, and not take from us? The Urgent truth can be found at NUMBERSUSA. Read about the corruption in Washington at JUDICIAL WATCH. CAPSWEB for the truth about OVERPOPULATION. BE REST ASSURED THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPECTED TO BE GUARDIANS OF ALL AMERICANS, ARE IN ACTUAL FACT THE PUPPETS OF THE BUSINESS CONSORTIUM'S AND SPECIAL INTEREST LOBBYISTS.

I'm simply shocked by these responses. Do we read our faith through the lens of politics, or do we change and at times adapt our politics in accordance with what seems to be fundamentally at the core of our faith: love and care for our neighbors. In the Bible, I see God's consistent care for the outsider, the foreigner, the refugee. I applaud this statement, and hope it moves Christians everywhere to flesh out more deeply what God's compassion and justice means in our own time and context.

When a Christian community comes together to examine the issues of the day and they find a Christian solution, a way forward based on faith and scripture, why do the anti-immigration hardliners who comment all over the web come to bomb the web site with a repeated cut-and-paste message for their advocacy group against legal and illegal immigration? It just seems so inappropriate. Thank you for this article. I may not agree with everything, but the dialougue and thought it provokes is so helpful. Too bad someone tried to spoil that with propoganda.

GREAT! Now we have the church asking for amnesty fot the illegal aliens. The church is blind and can't see the damage the illegal aliens are doing.

Illegal aliens have made America the dumping ground for all their illegal alien children, then we have to school them and give them free medical care.

I for one, am sick and tired of these ILLEGAL ALIENS snubbing their nose at our immigration laws and the many other laws of this Country. If our Federal Government can not ENFORCE our immigration laws, and get these ILLEGAL ALIENS out of this Country, then let the States do it! One way or another, an end has to come to this illegal immigration, and not with AMNESTY! Amnesty will only encourage more ILLEGAL ALIENS to invade our Country and reward those who broke our laws and raped the American taxpayer in many ways...depressing our wages, taking our jobs, overwhelming our schools with their ILLEGAL ALIEN children, driving without a license or car insurance, all the crime from stolen identities to rape, drugs and everything else.

It's time for ZERO TOLERENCE with these ILLEGAL ALIENS. It's time for them get out of this Country and back in their own Country where they belong. When we get rid of the ILLEGAL ALIENS, we will get rid of all the problems that go with them. THAT IS A FACT!

Jesus was a refugee? Since when? Since the Bible has been brought into the illegal immigration issue, I would like to bring up John 10:1 which says...

"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber."

If you come here illegally, be ready to pay the price. Don't cry, complain, or moan, for you knew you were breaking the law. You reap what you sow.

John H. Guthrie and Beast: Jesus WAS a refugee -- forced to flee his country of origin against his will. See Matthew 2:13-23, in which Herod decides to kill Jesus, an angel warns Joseph, and Jesus and his family flee Israel and go to Egypt (against their will -- to escape Herod's slaughter of newborn Jewish males) where they stay apparently for several years until after Herod dies.

Good for the NAE and the NHCLC, and for CT for covering it.

For those who rage against the "ILLEGAL ALIENS," most so-called "illegals" are hard-working people who take the lowest paid jobs and are trying to raise families and earn a tiny piece of the American pie. Many pay taxes. A significant percentage did not come here illegally. Some of those overstayed properly obtained visas. Others were brought here as children and have few remaining ties to their "home" countries. You might want to walk a mile in their shoes before you condemn them so mercilessly.

We'll have a sane immigration policy just as soon as those who believe that deporting 20-some-million undocumented people is a viable option get their heads out of whatever dark recesses they've been stuck in and face the reality that there's not a snowball's chance in Miami of that ever happening. ¡Acostúmbrate folks!

Christian Lawyer,I am sorry you have associated me with Mr. Beast. In my remarks I made no derogatory comments concerning illegal aliens. Nor did I discuss the possibility of deporting illegals already residing in this nation. I simply took issue with Anderson's equation of Jesus'situation with those who are in this country illegally. Jesus' family fled for fear of their lives; those in this country for the most part have not. In fact, since the onset of our current ecoonomic troubles the rate of illegals entering this country has dropped. This would seem to indicate that the desire to enter this country is not necessitated by life or death circumstances. If you would take Matt 2: 13-23 in its full context, you might remember that Jesus'family were given gold, frankincense and myhr (Spelling?), valuable spices that would allow them to support themselves in Egypt. As for Old Testament commands to treat all vulnerable people rightly, including the rufugee, those refugees still had to follow God given regulations to be considered full citizens with all the rights and priviledges citizenship brought. In other words, those refugees had to become Jews, forsaking all the previous gods and worshipping the one true God of Israel. Of course illegals work hard and often take jobs no one else wants. But that does not make them any less illegal. Being in this country without recourse to the legal manner of entry makes one an illegal, that is if we do not want to throw away the dictionary and begin defining terms to our liking. While I consider some of the remarks by some who have commented unfortunate, the presence of illegals in this nation have strained the resources of many states. Finally, despite the good work I am sure that you do, I would caution you about the language you used in your comments. Your good deeds do not exempt you from treating those you disagree with with respect. To accuse me of hiding my head in dark recesses without knowing me is a clear violation of I Cor. 13.

If this were simply an issue about what to do with good people among us who happen to be here illegally, that would be one thing. But, it is greater than that. It is an issue about the sovereignty of a nation, the right to protect our borders and the right to determine the scope of society in light of employment, health and welfare. It takes rules and those rules need to take into consideration basic humanity and love of people, as directed by Christ. We've been caught short because trends and technology have made immigration easier and economic pressures are coming from both sides: fill the jobs and save the jobs. A selfless response to creation of immigration response is the only answer.

Thom
http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

Delaware Bob quoted John 10:1 "I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber." then went on to say "If you come here illegally, be ready to pay the price. Don't cry, complain, or moan, for you knew you were breaking the law. You reap what you sow."

What about the original "illegal immigrants" in this country: the Pilgrims and explorers/colonizers? Shouldn't we be paying the price for ripping land away from the only natural born Americans, Native Americans? Many people like to condemn today's "illegal immigrants" not recognizing the hypocrisy in that argument. The only people that rightfully could make those claims are Native Americans. As illegal immigrants we have no right to rail against illegal immigrants.

Like Brittancus, I'm shocked at the discourse on this Christian website. It just demonstrates that as a whole we American Christians have sold our souls and worship the idol of politics. We don't compare views and statements to scripture, but rather to what our favorite pundit or politician thinks. God help us on judgment day.

John Guthrie -- I made clear to whom I was directing my remarks in each paragraph. One paragraph was directed to you and Beast, who both denied Jesus was a refugee, which is flatly incorrect no matter how many gifts they had received. You might not be aware, but a few undocumented aliens are quite wealthy. It doesn't make them any less undocumented. It also doesn't mean that they can't be in fear for their lives. Your misstating Jesus's status as a refugee is in direct violation of the commandment not to lie. I don't hear you apologizing for your false statement.

Some who come illegally (or stay illegally) are economic refugees, but many come in fear for their lives. Your statement that "those in this country for the most part have not" come out of fear for their lives is woefully ignorant. Hear the stories of many Haitians and Cubans, and many others from Africa and Asia. Further, Haitians who come illegally are routinely held at the inhumane Krome detention facility in Miami, while the Cubans who make it here illegally are allowed to go free under the "wet foot/dry foot" policy. Our immigration policy is irrational.

I directed the remainder of my remarks to "those who rage against the so-called "ILLEGAL ALIENS." Why do you think that would apply to you?

I stand by my comments about when we will get a sane immigration policy. You have offered no explanation as to how anyone could possibly make it a reality to deport 20-some-million people. As long as that is just a fantasy, any immigration policy that has that fantasy at its heart, or as its goal, is irrational and unbiblical and merciless.

I don't hear you speaking in love at all about the refugees here. I hear only condemnation.

Justice and mercy are biblical principals. Scriptures clearly designate government authorities to make laws and enforce order. Christians are obligated to submit to these authorities not only out of fear but out of conscience. (Romans 13) Hence the authorities are charged not only with making the laws but enforcing them. Standards of justice are not fully moral if they are not accompanied by judgment and punishment.

Take amnesty, for example. Forgiving foreigners for entering the country illegally or staying when their visas expire might be seen as “merciful” or “compassionate,” at least giving legal status without following the written law. However, the government, as agent of God, will have rewarded the individual’s failure to trust God to meet His people’s needs.

Could we not make an exception for a starving man? An individual can; a civil government cannot. The larger principles involve willfully breaking God’s commandment against authority. Even a desperate man is not at liberty to take matters into his own hands with unlawful acts. Scripture does not leave him free to become a law unto himself.

Christian Lawyer: I assume you all your original comments included me because you made no attempt in them to distinguish who you were talking about. I do not take issue with the fact that some illegals from certain countries may be looked upon with more favor than others. That does not justify allowing a massive influx of illegals from across the border to get away with flouting our laws. To allow Mexicans to stay here illegally in no way helps the Hatians. To give favor to Cubans does not justify allowing others to receive favorable treatment. Those coming from Mexico are not for the most part fleeing for their lives. The Mexican Government is activily encouraging their actions and is engaged in an all out effort to help those who have come illegally stay here. If these people had anything to fear from their government, you might think the Mexican Government would be cooperating to see that these people would be returned so that they could be dwelt with. If you could tell me who the Mexicans coming across our borders are afraid of, or who the Hatians are afraid of, provide me a link to news stories on the subject on the internet. (And I mean news stories from unbiased news services, not stories from websites biased in favor of allowing all illegals to enter the country.) As for dealing with the deportationn issue, my original comment dealt exclusively with equating the status of Jesus' family with the staus of those who are here illegally. It may be that the government may deal more leniently with those who have children who have legal status than with those who have not. It is hardly humane to allow their coming here to put too much strain on the ability of communities to care for them as well as everybody else. That way, everyone suffers. It is sad that for someone who claims to be a Christian as you do cannot disagree with a brother or sister without the language you resort to. I do not agree that Jesus' family's circumstances can be likened to the circumstances of illegals in this nation. I made no remarks that anyone could legitmately critcize as a lack of love toward illegals. Your statements making such a claim are just as out of bounds as some of the extreme comments made by others who have commented on this article. If you cannot disagree with someone without accusing them of lying, then you should not be engaging in discourse until you can line up your character and conduct with I Cor 13, which states that we are to not to attribute evil to others.

John Guthrie -- Your original post did NOT claim that Jesus' "family circumstances can[not] be likened to the circumstances of illegals in this mation" as you now claim. Nor did your original post look at whether Jesus' flight made him legal or illegal.

What you said was: "Jesus remained within his country of origin. All his travels were of his own accord.... He also lived out in the open, not in hiding. The designation by Anderson of Jesus as a refugee is way off the mark."

Of course, as Matthew 2 demonstrates, this is flatly false. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph hid from Herod and became refugees when they fled Bethlehem for Egypt in fear for their lives. You didn't try to say, "He wasn't a refugee in the way I understand the word." You just claimed he was not a refugee at all, without any explanation. The laws of fraud and misrepresentation hold that, once one starts speaking on a subject, one must say all that needs to be said in order for the statements to not be misleading. Your original post failed that test. You can lash out at me, but for a professor and a pastor as you claim to be, that's both shoddy history and shoddy theology. It's also intellectually dishonest. You should not be engaging in discourse until you can tell the truth.

Further, contrary to your assertion, I clearly identified to whom I was speaking. My first paragraph was expressly directed to you, by name. My second paragraph was expressly directed to the NAE and the NHCLC, and CT, by name. My third paragraph was directed "To those who rage against the "ILLEGAL ALIENS." If you felt that designation applied to you, well then, as one of my Catholic friends learned from the nuns, "a guilty mind needs no accuser."

Here is one of the many sad stories of Haitians fleeing for their lives. It's an article from the Miami Herald, posted at Sen. Bill Nelson's website. http://billnelson.senate.gov/news/details.cfm?id=244544&

Read also the book titled "Brother, I'm Dying" by Miami Haitian-American writer Edwidge Danticat, which tells, among other things, how her uncle, a Baptist pastor in Haiti died at the Krome detention center while he was seeking political asylum because gangs opposed to the UN troops had burned down his house and his church and threatened to kill him. He came with both a passport and a proper visa. He was locked up and denied proper medical care anyway. In 2007, Danticat's book won the National Book Critics Circle award for autobiography and was a finalist for the National Book Awards.

Here's more from the early 1990's after the ouster of Haiti's Aristide. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/09/world/thousands-in-haiti-ask-asylum-in-the-us.html

Anyone who's lived in South Florida has heard these stories recounted first-hand by friends, family and neighbors. Just because you're unfamiliar with this sad situation doesn't make it any less real to those who are suffering.

You accuse me of speaking without love. I get tired listening to you and others moralize on things about which you know nothing. I accuse you of acting without love. Your focus only on the "strain" that you perceive undocumented immigrants put on local communities, without acknowledging the fullness of their contribution to the community, is lopsided and unfair. If you've ever lived in an area where there are many immigrants, you would know that they are among the most hard-working, family-oriented folks around. If you can only see the strain, you're not looking hard enough. And, since these folks are children of God, we have an obligation to see them fully for who they are, not just to look at their legal status as you appear to do.

Very few people suggest blanket amnesty for economic refugees. A path, even an arduous path, to citizenship would be appropriate for those who are undocumented economic refugees. But the notion that at some point we're going to "send them all back where they came from" is just ludicrous and merciless, and utterly at odds with I Cor. 13. You might want to attend to that plank.

Christian Lawyer: It is clear that you have looked at my blog, yet it is also clear that either you did not take time to read it very well. I have a history degree but no where do I claim to be a professor. Nor am I a pastor at the present time. I will look at the links you sent me later today and respond to them.

John Guthrie -- You're right. I read "professor" into your history and Christian Education degrees. My apologies. See how that works?

You do claim, however, that you are "not currently" serving as a pastor but that you currently preach at every opportunity you get. That sounds like a pastor to me, but you can be whatever you want to be. You certainly post alot of theology on your website.

A pastor's duties encompass more than preaching. A pastor seeks to spiritually guide the flock entrusted to his care not just through public proclamation of the Word but also through personal discipleship, encouraging, couseling, prayer and leading people to public acts of righteousness. Engaging in prison ministry and being on the board of a crises pregnacy center, as I mention on my blog, are examples of the last two. As for having a lot of theology on my website, all Christians are called to think theologically as we are to love the Lord with all our mind.

Thanks for the links sent. I certainly agree that there are individual cases of hardship. It does not surprise me that Evangelical Christians suffer hardship in Haiti since they are definately in the minority there. I have met one family of Christians who have had relatives kidnapped for ransom there. In my past comments, I have stated that most illegals who come here are not coming here for fear of their lives; that should imply that I understand that there are some who come here fleeing persecution. Since the Christian population in Haiti is small, one cannot logically deduce that the individual stories reflected the situation of all those from Haiti trying to enter the U.S. Never the less, the links that you sent me did not match my request. First, I asked for unbiased information that the MAJORITY of illegals are here because of persecution in their native land. You did not provide that. Stories covering individuals does not prove the point either way. A website of a Senator is not an unbiased source. It could have been if it had cited unbiased news services, but it did not. Perhaps in 1993 many fled because of political violence, but a news story from 1993 does not reflect the situation today. I would like to see stories from unbiased news sources that the MAJORITY of illegals in this country are here because they have a fear of persecution if they return home. The fact that our legal system has inequities in it does not justify allowing all illegals to break the law. As for straining social services, this hurts all, illegal and legal.
As a Lawyer, you must be aware that to prove a case of fraud, you have to prove intent to deceive. You have presented no such evidence. All you have presented is your own interpretation of my remarks, which would not be allowed in a court of evidence. In that, I do accuse you of acting without love. (As a lawyer, you should be aware that in the U.S.,fraud does not involve the expression of personal opinions) I have had the opportunity to observe hardworking immigrants everywhere I have lived. While I admire their work ethic and do sympathize with their economic plight (which I have observed first hand in Mexico), I do not believe a good work ethic or hard circumstances at home entitle illegals to live here without complying with our laws. As I said in an earlier post, I do believe a difference can be made in handling cases of those who have legal children living in the U.S. and those who do not. We are all made in the image of God, but that does not exempt us from follwing the Law. I look forward to you sending those links dealing with the circumstances of the Majority of illegals in this country.

Isn't it ironic that the same church that preaches Bible literacy and obedience is the first to attack poor immigrants from Mexico (perhaps because they are not white)? What happened to Jesus' command to be our brother's keeper and to "do unto the least of these my brethren"? Or how about, to love the Lord with all your heart and mind and soul and YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF? These biblical injunctions must not apply to the U.S. church since it consist mostly of right-wing GOP extremists who claim to be "Pro-Life" but not when it comes to children who are alive, poor people, immigrants or any persons of color. The complete hypocrisy of the church in this nation with its hatred and hostility towards non-whites, President Obama, universal healthcare (what happened to being pro-life?) and its worship of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, etc.. in the name of Christianity is surely making our Lord spew it out of His mouth. We are incurring a great judgment which will make 911 seems like a party. Repent now or face the wrath of the Living God.

John Guthrie, there are so many falsehoods in your post, it's hard to know where to begin.

"Since the Christian population in Haiti is small"

-- False. About 95% of Haitians claim Christianity as their religion. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ha.html

"I asked for unbiased information that the MAJORITY of illegals are here because of persecution in their native land."

-- No, you didn't. Here's what you asked: "If you could tell me who the Mexicans coming across our borders are afraid of, or who the Hatians are afraid of ..." Moreover, I never CLAIMED that a MAJORITY of undocumented immigrants were fleeing persecution, only that there were "many."

"Stories covering individuals does not prove the point either way."

-- The NYT story was not about individuals. It was about a wave of immigration by thousands of Haitians fleeing political persecution.

"A website of a Senator is not an unbiased source. It could have been if it had cited unbiased news services, but it did not."

-- The post on Sen. Nelson's cite was a re-print of a Miami Herald news article, as I noted. Are you claiming the Miami Herald is biased? On what basis?

"Perhaps in 1993 many fled because of political violence, but a news story from 1993 does not reflect the situation today."

-- I linked to the older article only to show that this has been going on for many, many years. The newer articles about individuals, individually don't prove a point about what's going on with many Haitians, but many individual stories do make up a greater narrative. You've got nothing to show that these new stories aren't typical.

-- Here's what the CIA's World Factbook says about the situation in Hait since 2004: "[S]ince 2004, about 8,000 peacekeepers from the UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH) maintain civil order in Haiti; despite efforts to control illegal migration, Haitians cross into the Dominican Republic and sail to neighboring countries." If the situation is so politically unstable as to require thousands of UN peacekeepers, don't you think that more than a few of those fleeing are doing so to escape the folks the UN peacekeepers are there to control?

-- And, here's a Congressional Research Service report from 2005 on the sad history of Haitian immigration, and the reasons that so many Haitians seek political asylum. It has noting to do with evangelicals. http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47153.pdf

"As a lawyer, you should be aware that in the U.S.,fraud does not involve the expression of personal opinions."

-- False. Personal opinions can constitute fraud if the opinions are stated, as your were, as if they were facts. You didn't say, "I dont think Jesus's travels made him a refugee." Instead, you said, without qualification, "Jesus remained within his country of origin."

"As a Lawyer, you must be aware that to prove a case of fraud, you have to prove intent to deceive. You have presented no such evidence."

-- False. One can prove "intent" by proving EITHER that a person KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that their statements were false. Given your experience as a pastor, about which you've so helpfully elaborated, there's no doubt that you either knew or should have known that your statement that "Jesus remained within his country of origin" was just plain false.

I look forward to you explaining how we can have a rational immigration policy based on the notion that we are going to deport tens of millions of people.

Could someone tell me again why it was necessary for the NAE to make this statement?

Yes, we should love and evangelize all (even in prison); yes illegal immigration is probably partly due to aborting 50 million of our own children; yes, if they left the economy would collapse in 24 hours; yes, there is xenophobia in the Church, and yes, the government as been disingenous on all this, but...

Why the necessity of dividing evangelicals on such a hot-button issue?

What's next for the NAE--cap and trade or gay rights?

Can't we get back to the gospel or are we forever imprisoned in the political arena?

Didn't a single one of the 75 NAE board members raise this basic question?

Christian Lawyer: I stand corrected on the Senators website. However, you have failed to provide any evidence that the MAJORITY of illegals are here because they fear for their lives back home and not for economic reasons. The Congressional Report you link to is not a Congressional Report. It is from an agency within the State Department that assists foreign journalists in covering the U.S. ( http://fpc.state.gov/c4696.htm ) The report is not a government report or not even an unbiased news service, but the Catholic Relief Services, which I am sure does outstanding work, but it is not a Congressional Report. You might have noted that the CIA report states that 80% of Haiti is Catholic and 14% are Evangelical, the report notes that half of Haiti's population practices Voodoo, which makes Evangelical Christians a definite minority in that nation as well as devout Catholics since the practice of Voodoo is completely incapatible with being a follower of Christ. I did not say Haitians fleeing the U.S. were fleeing because they were Evangelicals. I said that most people seeking to enter the U.S. illegally are here for economic reasons, not because they are afraid that they will be killed or persecuted if they return. Your representations of what I said in previous comments are simply dishonest as anyone who reads them with an unbiased mind could see. As for fraud, fraud is not applied to the expressions of opinions unless perhaps one is advertising a product. To even think about applying laws against fraud to the expressions of opinion would be a chilling departure to the Freedom of Speech we in this country currently enjoy. To bring this into discussion is nothing more than an exercise in intimidation in line with McCarthyism or Orwell's "1984" on your part. To contend otherwise is patently absurd. This conversation has gone on long enough. I will leave no more comments on this article.

John Guthrie, have you become completely unhinged? Your falsehoods are multiplying like rabbits:

"The Congressional Report you link to is not a Congressional Report."

-- I said it was a report "from the Congressional Research Service." If you had actually opened the link rather than just looking at the web address, you would have seen that the report I linked to states on the first page that it is from the "Congressional Research Service - Library of Congress" and that it is a "CRS Report for Congress." The Congressional Research Service exists entirely to analyze legislative or political issues and issue reports TO Congress.

"It is from an agency within the State Department that assists foreign journalists in covering the U.S. ( http://fpc.state.gov/c4696.htm )"

-- False, again. It was POSTED ON THE WEBSITE OF the State Dept. -- It WAS NOT a report "FROM an agency within the State Department." Seriously, why is it so difficult for you to tell the difference between the author of a report (Congressional Research Service) and the owner of the website (State Dept.) that posts it?? The State Department posted it to be of assistance to journalists looking for facts about Haitian immigration. This is the same mistake you made with the Miami Herald article posted on Sen. Nelson's website.

"The report is not a government report or not even an unbiased news service, but the Catholic Relief Services, which I am sure does outstanding work, but it is not a Congressional Report."

-- False, again! Where in heavens' name did you get "Catholic Relief Services"? Seriously, did you just pull that out of the air? Just because they have the same initials? The report clearly states it was from the Congressional Research Service, which makes it a government report. The Congressional Research Service is widely regarded as both scholarly and unbiased. Again, it states right at the top, if you had actually opened the link, that it was a "CRS Report for Congress" and at the bottom that the "CRS" in question was the Congressional Research Service. I didn't use the phrase "Congressional Report." You just made up those words. I called it what it is, a "report from the Congressional Research Service.

"You might have noted that the CIA report states that 80% of Haiti is Catholic and 14% are Evangelical..."

--Actually, I used the total "Christian" figure of 95% because you originally stated, falsely, of course, that "the Christian population in Haiti is small." Denominations are irrelevant to this discussion. Your use of figures broken down by denomination does not make the total figure I quoted incorrect. That some who assert that they are Christians also include some practice of voodoo may raise some theological issues, it doesn't negate the fact that about 95% of the Haitian population describes themselves as "Christian." Furthermore, Haitians who flee for their lives are not in fear because they are being persecuted for their religious beliefs, denominational or otherwise. They are fleeing political violence and instability, as the Congressional Research Service report makes clear, so your entire point about the Christian population being small, or as you now try to make it, the Evangelical population being small, has nothing to do with anything.

"Your representations of what I said in previous comments are simply dishonest as anyone who reads them with an unbiased mind could see."

-- Actually, I copied and pasted your own words just to be sure I was getting them right. Did you even go back and see what you said?

Needless to say, you're also wrong on the law of fraud. See generally Virginia Bankshares, 501 U.S. 1083 (1991) (statements of beliefs and opinions can be actionable under certain circumstances), http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=501&invol=1083

All of this could have been avoided if you had just acknowledged the simple fact that you were wrong in the very beginning when you denied Jesus was a refugee and stated, incorrectly, that "Jesus remained within his country of origin." Is this how you taught the prisoners you ministered to to take responsibility for their actions?