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December 7, 2009

Lesbian Bishop's Election Triggers New Power Struggle

Timothy C. Morgan

The Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles this weekend elected Mary Glasspool, an openly lesbian priest, to be one of its assistant bishops. This is sure to trigger new anxieties and power struggles in the worldwide Anglican Communion. Under limitations in effect since the election of New Hampshire Bishop Gene Robinson in 2003, Anglicans have more or less developed a consensus not to elect openly practicing homosexuals to the office of bishop. With this move, the consensus becomes all but unsustainable.

In my view, the election of Rev. Glasspool will fuel these power struggles:

1. Between Episcopal pragmatic traditionalists and the left wing on whether her election should be affirmed by the national church. (A majority of US dioceses must approve of this move and are likely to grant approval in this case.)

2. Between Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and TEC Presiding Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori regarding the future relationship between the American church and global Anglicanism. (Conservatives will now press more aggressively for ABC Williams to recognize the Anglican Church of North America. Church of England conservatives are also putting great pressure of Williams to hold the line.)

3. Among conservatives who remain inside the American church and the growing number of breakaway leaders. (There are still a sizable number of conservative/evangelical pastors and other leaders inside TEC -- mostly in suburban areas. These conservatives face the dilemma of what to do beyond verbal criticism of this action in Los Angeles.)

Meanwhile up North, the left-leaning Anglican Church of Canada has won a major victory when a British Columbia Supreme Court judge ruled in favor of the Vancouver-area Anglican diocese in a property fight with St. John's, Shaughnessy, one of the largest and most evangelical parishes in the national church, and several other conservative churches in the area. Some $20 million in property is at stake.

What do these developments mean for conservative Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, or non-denominational evangelicals?

Based on recent experience, here are four developing trend lines:

A. Flight, not fight. At the local level, more conservatives will become what I call "faith-based refugees." They might end up at your church!

B. Objection to homosexual conduct is equivalent to homophobia. The rhetoric of the left increasingly is that any opposition to active homosexuals in any leadership capacity is homophobia, unjust, and discriminatory. This has wide-spread implications for all of civil society, regardless of denomination.

C. Gay + Christian is emerging as a global movement. Most American Christians seem to be quite unaware of how the faith-based gay movement has strong coherence in the UK and other Euro-zone nations.

D. Conservatives remain deeply divided by politics, strategy, and theology. I continue to be surprised at how the conservative majority has had so much difficulty overcoming their disagreements over women in ministry, communion, the influence of Reformed theology, just to name a few things. These disagreements are likely to ripple far beyond Anglican borders.

Comments

Interesting reflections, Tim. One of the trend lines that you didn't emphasize in this article is how 'out of the ashes' is being birthed a new missionary-focused Anglicanism with 100,000 in 750 congregations through the new Province of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA). As our friend William Beasley+ in Chicago would put it, this is the miracle of greater unity from apparent disunity bringing together faithful Anglicans from many jurisdictions.

Thank you for your continuing interest in the Anglican saga.

By the way, the ACNA does not stand for the "Anglican Convention of North America" but the "Anglican Church of North America."

The election actually was much closer than expected. They had a candidate that would have reached out to the Latino community. Instead, so very predictably, the political agenda proponents won in the end and they chose the white liberal (the denomination doesn't have many of those!). So much for "diversity."

What all this seems to signal is the end of the classical Protestant Reformation and the churches which emerged from it. It certainly looks like Christianity needs a strong backbone-- as in the papacy--to protect and transmit the most important core Christian doctrines.

D. Conservatives remain deeply divided by politics, strategy, and theology.-- Tim Morgan

Mr Morgan...

The reason that they are deeply divided is because they are in many ways a house divided... Institutionalized Denominational Christianity, Is a work of the flesh disguised as remaining true to the Bible...

Just like Adam introduced sin into the world and corrupted it... man has taken the Gospel of Jesus and corrupted it with divisiveness...

Denominationalism is just as corrupted as the world is...

Homosexual affirming leadership is just a symptom of just how corrupt denominationalism has truly become... The fruit of the poison tree is ripe and ready for harvest... A harvest of apostasy...

The divisiveness within so-called "conservative" groups comes from having forsaken the directives of verse two, in order to fulfill verses three and four...

2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word of God. Be persistent, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

2Timothy 4:3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear.

2Timothy 4:4 They will reject the truth and follow strange myths.

Why?

Because of this...

Revelation 2:4 But I have this complaint against you. You don't love me or each other as you did at first!

Revelation 2:5 Look how far you have fallen from your first love! Turn back to me again and work as you did at first. If you don't, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches.

And moreso because of this...

Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

The trouble is, is that "conservatives" are blind to the fact that denominationalism is more about money, than it is about sound doctrine...

If "conservatives" truly loved God more than money, they would find a way, with God's help, to cut down the poison tree...

First of all, thank you to all of you who are standing up for the word of God, and for all those who use the scriptures to back up the truth. The bible based last day scriptures are being fulfilled as we speak, when people are calling wrong right, and right wrong. These churches that are allowing themselves to compromise are in grave error, and will be held accountable for it. I don't know what bible these people are reading, but it is not the holy word of God that says God hates sin, but loves the sinner, and wants to save them. Every pastor that is going against God's word has blood on his or her hands. the people who have left these churches did the right thing. All we can do is pray for those who need to come to the revelation of he truth before it is too late, and for those who refuse to repent, they will ahve their fate sealed at judgement day- how could any real bible believing blood washed born again Christian think this is right, or that God and his word have changed?- he says i'm God, and I don't change!.

Revelation 2:20 But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman--that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet--to lead my servants astray. She is encouraging them to worship idols, eat food offered to idols, and commit sexual sin.

Is denominationalism really the root cause of all this trouble? Or might the divisions over such issues as homosexuality and ordination of women be rooted in the tremendous lack of Biblical knowledge and understanding exhibited by many - most? - people who attend Christian churches?

Posted by: John Mitchell at December 8, 2009

I lay it at the feet of the leaders of Institutional Denominations...

Mr. Miyagi from Karate Kid, comes to mind... He said "No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher."

If the student is brainwashed with denominational doctrine, it becomes extremely difficult to read the Bible with anything other than tunnel vision...

In the words of Solomon...

Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

We are again at this point...

Isaiah 29:13 And so the Lord says, "These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. And their worship of me amounts to nothing more than human laws learned by rote.

And at this one as well...

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,

Mat 23:2 "The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures.

Mat 23:3 So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach.

Mat 23:4 They crush you with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to help ease the burden.

Mat 23:5 "Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside, and they wear extra long tassels on their robes.

Mat 23:6 And how they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the most prominent seats in the synagogue!

Mat 23:7 They enjoy the attention they get on the streets, and they enjoy being called `Rabbi.'

Mat 23:8 Don't ever let anyone call you `Rabbi,' for you have only one teacher, and all of you are on the same level as brothers and sisters.

Mat 23:9 And don't address anyone here on earth as `Father,' for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father.

Mat 23:10 And don't let anyone call you `Master,' for there is only one master, the Messiah.

Mat 23:11 The greatest among you must be a servant.

Mat 23:12 But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

So BHP Bruno in his most arrogant stance of late has trounced on the desires and instructions to the House of Bishops and the general populace. They were supposed to stop confirming in any way the validity of gays and lesbians as priests and bishops.
Bruno and his ilk should be deposed so his evil can not grow any stronger withing this church like an unattended cancer.
As for me and my family we will leave the episcopal church as it is currently run against the word of God and join in the Anglican church in the US who continue to be the people of God.
Bruno is intent upon destroying this once great church.

I wonder, Tim, if that "consensus" wasn't first broken when the Anglicans in Uganda couldn't manage to oppose proposed Ugandan legislation that would include the DEATH PENALTY for some gays and require friends and family of gays to turn them into police on pain of incarceration. The Anglican bishop there condemned anyone who opposed this horrific legislation. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/12/ugandas_anti-gay_law_rile_us.html

But CT's not going to cover that, is it?

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009

Have you asked them about it?

And what relevance is there in bringing it up here?...

Unless of course you wish to obfuscate the subject of discussion by throwing red herrings into the mix...

No sale, cl...

The unrepentant practice of homosexuality is irrevocably condemned in the Bible...

Placing an unrepentant homosexual into a position of leadership in a Christ professing organization makes just about as much sense as housing wolves in the sheepfold...

One problem with many Anglican leaders today is that they say they recognize Scripture, but only so far as it does not conflict with their agenda. The Bible is not the Word of God, it only "contains" the Word of God. A fresh "leading of the Spirit" is opening their eyes to "new truths". The real truth is, the Holy Spirit never leads anyone away from the deepest truths of Scripture. I don't know what spirit they're following, but it's not the Holy Spirit.

@CL: "...developing trend lines: B. Objection to homosexual conduct is equivalent to homophobia. The rhetoric of the left increasingly is that any opposition to active homosexuals in any leadership capacity is homophobia, unjust, and discriminatory. This has wide-spread implications for all of civil society, regardless of denomination." I once opined here whether this would happen. As I recall, you assured me that the First Amend. would ensure that I could continue unhampered with my "odious" speech. (I paraphrase here.) I'm not feeling so assured now. Reassure me. But I don't think it is odious to point lost sinners to Christ.
"Amazing Grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found
Was blind, but now I see."

And how is it wrong to rescue the perishing?
Rescue the perishing, care for the dying,
Snatch them in pity from sin and the grave;
Weep o’er the erring one, lift up the fallen,
Tell them of Jesus, the mighty to save.
Refrain

Rescue the perishing, care for the dying,
Jesus is merciful, Jesus will save.

Though they are slighting Him, still He is waiting,
Waiting the penitent child to receive;
Plead with them earnestly, plead with them gently;
He will forgive if they only believe.

And I would invite you, CL, return to the evangelical faith, which as I recall, is your heritage.
Jeremiah 6:16

16Thus says the LORD,
"Stand by the ways and see and ask for the (A)ancient paths,
Where the good way is, and walk in it;
And (B)you will find rest for your souls.

But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Well at least Christians (who happen to be gay) have someplace to go north of the border. Thank God for that.
The NT speaks much more about unity and loving your neighbour than about hating or killing the gays) in the case of Uganda)
It has nothing to do with compromising... but upholding our call to unity, to the respect the dignity of every human being.
Because someone is gay, does not mean they are not faithful servants of God.

Simka,
Anglicans say the same thing about the Evangelicals Leaders.

Daniel says, "Because someone is gay, does not mean they are not faithful servants of God."

Posted by: daniel at December 9, 2009

Daniel...

Please provide Biblical proof to counter this...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

Thank you in advance...

Provide biblical proof that because someone is Straight they are faithful...

Placing an unrepentant homosexual into a position of leadership in a Christ professing organization makes just about as much sense as housing wolves in the sheepfold...

Oh please, that is ridonkulous! I know several gay Christians more faithful than the money hungry evangelical pastors of the North American Mega Churches.

Provide biblical proof that because someone is Straight they are faithful...

Posted by: daniel at December 10, 2009

Daniel...

There is none...

Now...

Biblically demonstrate to me where it is even remotely possible for an unrepentant homosexual to be considered godly...

Thank you in advance...

Placing an unrepentant homosexual into a position of leadership in a Christ professing organization makes just about as much sense as housing wolves in the sheepfold...

Oh please, that is ridonkulous! I know several gay Christians more faithful than the money hungry evangelical pastors of the North American Mega Churches.

Posted by: Daniel at December 10, 2009

Daniel...

Are you pretending to be God?

Are you going to answer my question?
Where is the biblical proof that a straight person is faithful?

Each situation is different. We are all called to live as faithfully as possible.

Where in the bible is an unrepentant judgmental bigot a faithful to God?

Are you going to answer my question?
Where is the biblical proof that a straight person is faithful?

Posted by: daniel at December 10, 2009

Daniel...

I have already answered you...

Please read it once again...

For your convienience....

=======================================================================

Provide biblical proof that because someone is Straight they are faithful...

Posted by: daniel at December 10, 2009

Daniel...

There is none...

Now...

Biblically demonstrate to me where it is even remotely possible for an unrepentant homosexual to be considered godly...

Thank you in advance...

Posted by: David Hardy at December 10, 2009

Those scriptures do not prove that a straight person is faithful. There are many unfaithful straight people.

Daniel said, "Those scriptures do not prove that a straight person is faithful. There are many unfaithful straight people."

Posted by: daniel at December 10, 2009

Daniel....

Here..

Allow me to put the breadcrumbs just a bit closer for you....

=======================================================================

Daniel...

I have already answered you...

Please read it once again...

For your convienience....

=======================================================================

Provide biblical proof that because someone is Straight they are faithful...

Posted by: daniel at December 10, 2009

Daniel...

THERE IS NONE...

Now...

Biblically demonstrate to me where it is even remotely possible for an unrepentant homosexual to be considered godly...

Thank you in advance...

Posted by: David Hardy at December 10, 2009

But CT's not going to cover that, is it?

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009

Hey there cl....

You might wish to check this out...

And then print an apology...

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2009/12/rick_warren_oth.html

That would be the Christian thing to do....

Now don't you agree?

Dan: "And I would invite you, CL, return to the evangelical faith, which as I recall, is your heritage."

-- I'm sure I have much to repent for, but being a Progressive is not one of them. After much prayer and study, I believe that Progressive Christianity comports much better with the radical teachings of Christ than your cramped view of a narrow and puny God. I believe it is you who are in grave moral error.

Despite the repeated claims by you and David Hardy that none of the Progressives ever give any Biblical support for our position on gay marriage, I have posted several times a lengthy explanation using the John Wesley's quadrilateral approach. A scholar who posted at the CT Women's blog gave an even better analysis and cited to books by both conservative and moderate/progressive authors on each side of the issue so that those interested could read reasoned analysis from both sides. I posted links to all of the AGAIN a couple of days ago. Here are the links AGAIN. http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2009/08/having_it_both.html
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/women/2009/11/stanton_jones_cedarvilleout_co.html

Your entire response recently was to call it "all a fog." You have never responded to a single substantive point. David Hardy responded by re-posting an earlier response he had made to someone else on an entirely unrelated point. Well, you're entitled to your belief, but it's just intellectually dishonest to claim that no one ever gives you an explanation for how one can support gay marriage without rejecting the Bible.

BTW, I never called YOU, or even your arguments, "odious." The reference was explicitly to Fred Phelps, the guy who pickets military funerals with his "God Hates Fags" signs. I don't think there's any dispute that he's odious. You were more concerned with his right to continue preaching hate than you were with the victims of hate crimes. This is supposed to make me want to be an Evangelical again, how, exactly?

@CL: "BTW, I never called YOU, or even your arguments, "odious." The reference was explicitly to Fred Phelps, the guy who pickets military funerals with his "God Hates Fags" signs.

REALLY? THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID on Nov. 4: "So, rest assured, Dan, the First Amendment is a powerful thing. YOUR RIGHT TO PREACH WHATEVER ODIOUS THING YOU WANT (caps mine) remains fully intact." From "Maine's Same-Sex Marriage Opponents Claim Victory, Nov. 4"
"You were more concerned with his right to continue preaching hate..."
WRONG AGAIN!
I SAID: "Thought we bible believing christians who do not agree with the legalization of homosexual marriage were safe to speak out against it from the pulpits of our churches." Hateful Fred was not even on my teleprompter.
Ya know, CL, I get myself in trouble enough by what I say. I don't need your help!

Exodus 20:16 - "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
I accept your apology and I forgive you. But in case there is no apology forthcoming, I still forgive you. (no sarcasm here)

@CL: "I believe that Progressive Christianity comports much better with the radical teachings of Christ than your cramped view of a narrow and puny God. I believe it is you who are in grave moral error."

Jesus said in Matt. 7: 13, 14 - "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Think I'll stick with the way Jesus thought - narrow as it is. Imprudent to do otherwise.

And if you could, please forward to me where your "radical" Jesus, as informed and enlightened and postmodern as he was, expounded your progressive view of ss marriage. (I imagine he sounds a lot like John Kerry drinking a double latte, but that's just my opinion.)
>Funny, neither you nor the other pro-homosexual activists ever honor that request. And you accuse me, DH et al of never answering your so-called evidence. Talk about hypocrisy! You say we just answer with bible verses. Well, duh!! Jesus, the narrow cramped puny Son of God, did the same. See Matt. 4:3-10 "the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the (E)Son of God, command that these stones become bread."

4But He answered and said, "It is written, '(F)MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

5Then the devil took Him into (G)the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,

6and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,
'(H)HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU';
and
'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,
SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"

7Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, '(I)YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

8(J)Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

9and he said to Him, "(K)All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."

10Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, '(L)YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

Satan and Jesus today:
Satan: Jesus, why don't you ever answer my scintillating postmodern arguments? How can we dialogue if you won't answer my well- researched evidence?
Jesus: I do. The answer is: MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"
Satan: What kind of answer is that? Fact is You can't answer any of my progressive, enlightened arguments.
Jesus: Okay, here is one: "YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"
Satan: Look, Son, I've got lots of secondary sources you need to consider. Liberal/postmod/progressive scholars have debunked your myth.
Jesus: That would be Son of God to you. Go, Satan! For it is written, '(L)YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.

(BTW - The captcha phrase I'm using is surely ironic: "Sartre armpit"
Am I the only one to find that funny? It must be my fuzzy studies background.)

You know what, Dan? You're right on this one point, and you have my apology. But, I was, and continue to be, right, that the First Amendment will protect you and the "Rev." Fred Phelps from preaching whatever you want, which is what you were concerned about, rather than about the victims of hate crimes. Why you would want to be on the same side as Pelps, though, is mystifying.

And, BTW, very good effort at once again having NOTHING substantive to say about the detailed explanations of the Progressive Christian view on same sex marriage.

Dan, you're just name-calling, not actual debate. Jesus said nothing, EITHER pro OR con on the issue of same sex marriage. Try again.

@CL: "...the First Amendment will protect you..." Not if it is read with postmodern spectacles.
"...Why you would want to be on the same side as Pelps, though, is mystifying."
CL, you're making an assumption and you know what they say about people who make assumptions.
"...you're just name-calling..."
List them please.

"Jesus said nothing, EITHER pro OR con on the issue of same sex marriage."
You're against literalism - until it serves your pupose to be a literalist - more like concretist.
Connect the dots: John 1:1, 14, 18
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1(A)In the beginning was (B)the Word, and the Word was (C)with God, and (D)the Word was God. 14. And (R)the Word (S)became flesh, and (T)dwelt among us, and (U)we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (V)grace and (W)truth. 18. No one has seen God at any time; (AF)the only begotten God who is (AG)in the bosom of the Father, (AH)He has explained Him. Matt.15: 19"(N)For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications...
Matt. 19:5 "...And He answered and said, "Have you not read (E)that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, '(F)FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND (G)THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?
6"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." So, He hasn't said anything pro/con about ss marriage? Really? You're a lawyer. Use some of that inferential reasoning.
Observation: God joined Adam and Eve together - not Adam and Steve. Conclusion: God has condemned homosexual behavior in His word, and Jesus is God, therefore Jesus is must be against homosexual behavior.
But as Jesus' prime interpreter, Paul the Apostle, said (or do you not accept his authority?) in Romans 1:27 (270 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (A)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And I Cor. 6:9 "Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,..."

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"BTW, very good effort at once again having NOTHING substantive to say about the detailed explanations of the Progressive Christian view on same sex marriage."
>Nice feint, there. Thought we were talking about the word of God. There is nothing substantive about the progressive Christian view. B/c it isn't substantive. The word of God is. And you have nothing substantive to say about that. Try again.

Dan,

You quote unrelated scripture (to make it sound like I'm condemned to hell for disagreeing with you -- that's the name-calling this time), and then go on to claim "There is nothing substantive about the progressive Christian view. B/c it isn't substantive. The word of God is. And you have nothing substantive to say about that."

What you can't seem to address (or even acknowledge) is the progressive challenge to the whole premise of your argument. Your view is premised on the belief that "God has condemned homosexual behavior in His word." I accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God, but your understanding is incorrect, IMO, just as the pro-slavery forces were incorrect in believing that the white race was to rule over the other races.

The word "homosexual" is a false translation. The references are to temple prostitution, and outside that context, mean only to avoid idolatry, especially since the purported anti-gay verses fall in the middle of multiple chapters on worship practices -- atonement, idolatry, animal sacrifice, priestly conduct. The dichotomy between the dietary code, the civil code, and the so-called Holiness Code, is an artifical device not found anywhere in the text. Etc., etc., etc., as laid out in lengthy postings, which you've entirely ignored.

When your entire argument is built on a false premise, it falls of its own weight.

You're entitled to have the opinion that my opinion is not substantive. As a lawyer, I would fight for your right to believe differently from me. But, until you address the progressive challenge (however little you value it) made to the premise of your argument, you're just running from the real debate.

@CL: "What you can't seem to address (or even acknowledge) is the progressive challenge to the whole premise of your argument."
Nor can I discuss at length Barth's neo-orthodoxy or Bultmann's demythogization, nor can I expound on many other topics and theological programs. So what? But you are a good spokesman for Progrs. I see how you ignore scripture, twist scripture and then accuse me of a false premise. My premise is only false if yours is true. IMO you haven't demonstrated sufficient understanding of the word of God for me to be interested looking at the progressive belief. CL, you sound like the old liberalism Karl Barth abandoned a century ago.
"This is supposed to make me want [insert: to investigate Progressivism] - how, exactly?
"The word "homosexual" is a false translation." Okay, and the thousands of bible translators and exegetes working on the text have gotten it wrong. Yeaahhh, well, okaaay. If you say so. But you have never provided any evidence for their errors except for "they've gotten it wrong" which doesn't really provide any proof. B/c all I say is "no they haven't.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer: Your entire response recently was to call it "all a fog." You have never responded to a single substantive point. David Hardy responded by re-posting an earlier response he had made to someone else on an entirely unrelated point. Well, you're entitled to your belief, but it's just intellectually dishonest to claim that no one ever gives you an explanation for how one can support gay marriage without rejecting the Bible.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 10, 2009

You sure have a long winded way of saying that there is nothing in the Bible that demostrates even the slightest bit of factual evidence to support your claims...

Refute the folowing Biblically if you are able.. My most esteemed adversary...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer:-- I'm sure I have much to repent for, but being a Progressive is not one of them. After much prayer and study, I believe that Progressive Christianity comports much better with the radical teachings of Christ than your cramped view of a narrow and puny God. I believe it is you who are in grave moral error.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 10, 2009

My God is neither cramped, nor puny...

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

Ephesians 4:10 The same one who came down is the one who ascended higher than all the heavens, so that his rule might fill the entire universe.

Yours on the other hand is...

2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

2Timothy 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2Thessalonians 2:3Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction. [fn]

2Thessalonians 2:4 He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.

2Thessalonians 2:5 Don't you remember that I told you this when I was with you?

2Thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes.

2Thessalonians 2:7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.

2Thessalonians 2:8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

2Thessalonians 2:9 This evil man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.

2Thessalonians 2:10 He will use every kind of wicked deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse to believe the truth that would save them.

2Thessalonians 2:11 So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies.

2Thessalonians 2:12 Then they will be condemned for not believing the truth and for enjoying the evil they do.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer: Dan, you're just name-calling, not actual debate.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 10, 2009

Oh Brother!!!

And so it grows....To "Christian Lawyer".... No, no, no! The first part of this is false and the second part is just ludicrous... Pasting the same words over and over again is not reasoned discussion... Once again, when you are definitively proven wrong... This is just flatly wrong...That's a ridiculous notion and... is just hateful.... So, hate all you want... you're just name-calling, not actual debate... the First Amendment is a powerful thing. your right to preach whatever odious thing you want... Ultimately, it will come back to haunt you... You completely misunderstand the law... your willingness to disavow what you said in printed word is staggering... And your (mis)understanding of basic legal principles is boundless -- pretty much as messed up as your failure to understand the basic concept of "precedent" last year... your hate-filled diatribes will never diminish... That's sheer idiocy.... That's willful blindness.... If you were really all about "Truth," I should think you'd stick to actual facts, rather than fantasy....you have twisted the words of the Bible to suit your own preconceived prejudices... Actually, I just quoted what you said....to a certain extent, letting you spew has its benefits... Thanks again for helping me make that point... I don't need to respond to all of your nonsense...

David Hardy, thank you for re-re-re-posting.

You are quite welcome...

Posted by: Christian Lawyer: Jesus said nothing, EITHER pro OR con on the issue of same sex marriage. Try again.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 10, 2009

I beg to differ...

Mark 7:20 And then he added, "It is the thought-life that defiles you.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder,

Mark 7:22 adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.

Mark 7:23 All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God."

When Jesus spoke there wors, he was speaking to Jews who understod the Mosaic laws regarding all things sexually immoral..

Inclusive of this...

The New Covenant had not yet been established when Jesus spoke these words... Therefore, he was refering to Old Testament morality codes...

Now Jesus did tweak a few things... i.e... murder, divorce, to name a couple and he also forgave several of their sins.. Parlytic man, sinful woman, thief on the cross, to name a few...

He was neither violating the law, nor was he abolishing the law... He was fulfilling it...

All who are in Jesus are justified by his shed blood... All who are outside of Jesus are under the law...

Luke 16:17 But that doesn't mean that the law has lost its force in even the smallest point. It is stronger and more permanent than heaven and earth.

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

Romans 2:12 God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law.

Romans 2:13 For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight.

As the most "Christian" of Lawyers... You already know this...

Don't you?

And so it grows (The collection of direct Christian lawyer quotes)....To "Christian Lawyer".... No, no, no! The first part of this is false and the second part is just ludicrous... you're just running from the real debate... Pasting the same words over and over again is not reasoned discussion... Once again, when you are definitively proven wrong... This is just flatly wrong...That's a ridiculous notion and... is just hateful.... So, hate all you want... you're just name-calling, not actual debate... the First Amendment is a powerful thing. your right to preach whatever odious thing you want... Ultimately, it will come back to haunt you... You completely misunderstand the law... your willingness to disavow what you said in printed word is staggering... And your (mis)understanding of basic legal principles is boundless -- pretty much as messed up as your failure to understand the basic concept of "precedent" last year... your hate-filled diatribes will never diminish... That's sheer idiocy.... That's willful blindness.... If you were really all about "Truth," I should think you'd stick to actual facts, rather than fantasy....you have twisted the words of the Bible to suit your own preconceived prejudices... Actually, I just quoted what you said....to a certain extent, letting you spew has its benefits... When your entire argument is built on a false premise, it falls of its own weight... Thanks again for helping me make that point... I don't need to respond to all of your nonsense... David Hardy, thank you for re-re-re-posting.

You are quite welcome...

@CL: "You quote unrelated scripture (to make it sound like I'm condemned to hell for disagreeing with you -- that's the name-calling this time)"
>By your definition then you've engaged in name-calling plenty, too. As they say, what goes around....and if you can't stand the heat...
---------------------------------------
Btw - those verses weren't unrelated - esp. if one uses a postmod. approach to interpretation - they were an application to what you said was my "...cramped view of a narrow and puny God."
---------------------------------------
Take my advice:
II Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; (N)examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you (O)fail the test?
----------------------------------------
Finally, Best Wishes. Seriously, you will be blessed by this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIdirIDcfvs

@CL et al: You wanted more from us than God's word to debate the morality of ss marriage/homosexual behavior? Here's some scholarship for you. I'll let you connect the dots. Oh, btw, CL, I don't think Mr. Wesley was in favor of ss marriage/homosexual behavior. Must be a terrible disappointment to progressive methodists.

Lexical Information on I Cor. 6:9

I Cor. 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived ; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Robertson’s Word Pictures

The unrighteous (adikoi). To remind them of the verb adikew just used. The Kingdom of God (qeou basileian). Precisely, God's kingdom. Be not deceived (mh planasqe). Present passive imperative with negative mh. Do not be led astray by plausible talk to cover up sin as mere animal behaviourism. Paul has two lists in verses Colossians 9 10 , one with repetition of oute, neither (fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, or malakoi, abusers of themselves with men or arsenokoitai or sodomites as in 1 Timothy 1:10 a late word for this horrid vice, thieves, covetous), the other with ou not (drunkards, revilers, extortioners). All these will fall short of the kingdom of God. This was plain talk to a city like Corinth. It is needed today. It is a solemn roll call of the damned even if some of their names are on the church roll in Corinth whether officers or ordinary members.

Wesley’s Explanatory Notes

I Cor. 6:9
6:9 Idolatry is here placed between fornication and adultery, because they generally accompanied it. Nor the effeminate - Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good - natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell.

And for the OT

Leviticus 18:22 - ' You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female ; it is an abomination.
hb[wt hva ybkvm bkvt al rkz -taw ? awh

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 7901
Original Word Word Origin
bkX a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Shakab TWOT - 2381
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shaw-kab'
Verb

Definition
1. to lie down
a. (Qal)
1. to lie, lie down, lie on
2. to lodge
3. to lie (of sexual relations)
4. to lie down (in death)
5. to rest, relax (fig)
b. (Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)
c. (Pual) to be lain with (sexually)
d. (Hiphil) to make to lie down
e. (Hophal) to be laid

NAS Word Usage - Total: 208
actually lies 1, has 1, laid 6, laid low 1, lain 3, lain down 2, lay 22, lay down 15, lie 26, lie down 31, lie still 1, lies 25, lies down 10, lodged 1, lying 7, lying down 4, make your bed 1, recline 1, rest 4, rested* 1, sleep 4, sleeps 1, slept 37, take...rest 1, taking 1, tip 1

NAS Verse Count
Genesis 18
Exodus 3
Leviticus 15
Numbers 4
Deuteronomy 14
Joshua 2
Judges 2
Ruth 5
1 Samuel 9
2 Samuel 18
1 Kings 20
2 Kings 19
2 Chronicles 12
Job 11
Psalms 6
Proverbs 6
Ecclesiastes 2
Isaiah 6
Jeremiah 1
Lamentations 1
Ezekiel 12
Hosea 1
Amos 1
Jonah 1
Micah 1
________________________________________ ________________________________________
Total 190

The Hebrew lexicon is Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon; this is keyed to the "Theological Word Book of the Old Testament." These files are considered public domain.
________________________________________
Bibliography Information
Brown, Driver, Briggs and Gesenius. "Hebrew Lexicon entry for Shakab". "The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon". .

I've posted this on another thread. For your convenience.

Dan, I never wanted "more from [you] than God's word." What I wanted was a discussion of how we interpret God's word, which we both are trying to honor, though we view it quite differently. I don't think your view is outside the bounds of reasonability (in my world of law, "sanctionable"). But, as I've said before, when I read your view (and I have, since it's what I learned growing up) and then see the gay Christian folks I know, most of whom are reverent, prayerful, Spirit-filled Christians (in just the same way that most of my evangelical friends are), I have to conclude that somewhere over the millenia, multiple languages, scientific understanding, that we've gotten it wrong, and wrong in a way that goes against God's mercy.

Nevertheless, I will review your substantive posting here in more detail in the next couple of days, which I greatly appreciate. I saw your other one about visiting some progressive Christian websites and appreciate that one as well. I've been a little slow to respond as I've been taking care of a familiy member this weekend.

@CL: Being socially acceptable, "saying" the right things, "acting" the right way - even praying "correct" prayers - is not the basis of our standing before God. It is the shed blood of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection that gives us standing before God. He is my advocate. And the Bible is our authoritative rule of faith. God's word is light for the journey, food for nourishment, it comforts the afflicted and afflicts the comfortable; it is our guide for what's right and wrong. And it also displays our pretentiousness. Jesus said in Matt. 7:21, 22 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"(S)Many will say to Me on (T)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Altho, you may think I'm pointing these verses at you, I am not necessarily. (after all, I have three fingers pointing back at myself whenever I post/point-out scripture on these threads.) I believe, tho, it is imperative that I ground my observations and beliefs in the word of God and let the word of God speak and act (Is. 55:10,11).

Dan: "Being socially acceptable, "saying" the right things, "acting" the right way - even praying "correct" prayers - is not the basis of our standing before God."

-- I never said that it was. As to the rest of your post, I completely agree, but I think it is your position that is misunderstanding what the Bible is saying, not mine. I believe it is the progressive position that has "ground its observations and beliefs in the word of God and [has] let the word of God speak and act."

@CL:"I believe it is the progressive position that has "ground its observations and beliefs in the word of GOd and [has] let the word of God speak and act." Prove it historically, exegetically, and systematically. These are the areas that really count - not contemporary understanding based upon the latest philosophical fad since last Wednesday. If you have exegetical proof, well then post it. If you can find in church history where such behavior was accepted by the church catholic - well then post it. If you can build a theology from the biblical text without ripping out those damning verses - please post it. But for you to say the progressive position has "ground its observations and beliefs in the word of God and [has] let the word of God speak and act." lacks credibility by virtue of its lack of evidence.

@CL et al: For your perusal:
>http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_biblical_interpretation
>http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Christianity
>http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_the_Bible

Dan-

No idea how that happened, but thanks for pointing it out.

-BJ
CT Community

And now there are groups who both claim Christ And then bring practicing homosexuals into leadership positions...

Baby rapes shock South Africa

A typical story reveals the horror.

On a poor Johannesburg estate, a family of eight sleep in one dirty bedroom.

Last week a neighbour seized the nine year old daughter, showed her pornographic
magazines and then raped and indecently assaulted her. He gave her a few coins, and said sorry.

The little girl needed extensive surgery - her mother and father are inconsolable.

"I'm very angry, I'm very angry, I don't know how to take my anger out. I don't know why he did this, he used to come here and play with my children..." said the mother.

The father said he wanted to hunt down the rapists.

"How many parents' hearts must be broken?"

He is not alone in his rage.

Last weekend in Soweto a suspected child rapist was stoned to death.

The government is appealing for calm.

Myths

It is also trying to dispel a widespread rumour - that having sex with a virgin cures Aids.
Traditional healers, or witchdoctors, are blamed for spreading this idea, and encouraging child rape.

A sociologist, Lisa Vetton, draws a parallel with Europe, when child prostitution was rampant

"At that time venereal disease like Aids today was incurable. If you had gonorrhea or syphilis you were going to die. And exactly the same myth emerged, that sex with a virgin is going to cure you - so it seems like a very old response whenever sex and death are combined. Suddenly women - girls - get attributed with magical healing powers".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1703595.stm

Drastic times call for drastic measures. How do you protect the innocent from the thugs, outlaws, criminals, etc? A country can dither until it is too late. How do you stop those who are infected with HIV from infecting others?

Posted by: Dan at December 22, 2009
Drastic times call for drastic measures. How do you protect the innocent from the thugs, outlaws, criminals, etc? A country can dither until it is too late. How do you stop those who are infected with HIV from infecting others?

Especially when they do it with murder in their heart…

The doctors at the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta called him "Patient Zero." A stunningly handsome French-Canadian airline steward, Gaetan Dugas had over 2,500 male sexual partners on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean by the time he died at age 31.

It was in France, the doctors think, that he picked up the AIDS virus. Thence he brought the virus to both San Francisco and New York, where he infected partners through anonymous bathhouse sex and pickups from gay bars. At least forty of the first 248 homosexuals diagnosed with AIDS as of April 12, 1982 had had sex either with Dugas or with someone who had. ("Typhoid Mary" Mallon, by contrast, had fifty-three confirmed cases attributed to her, of whom three died.)

Long after his diagnosis, Dugas would sodomize willing partners in dimly lit cubicles, then turn up the lights and point to the purplish Kaposi's sarcoma lesions on his skin. "I've got gay cancer," he would say. "I'm going to die, and so are you."

http://www.fumento.com/shilts.html

And to think.....There are those groups who claim to be Christian, who have given practicing homosexuals the keys to the church house and welcomed them into positions of leadership...

May God have mercy upon their memberships for the apostacy of their leadership...

Michael Swift: Author

Gay Community News, Feb. 15-21, 1987

This essay is an outré, madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor.

We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.

Women, you cry for freedom. You say you are no longer satisfied with men; they make you unhappy. We, connoisseurs of the masculine face, the masculine physique, shall take your men from you then. We will amuse them; we will instruct them; we will embrace them when they weep. Women, you say you wish to live with each other instead of with men. Then go and be with each other. We shall give your men pleasures they have never known because we are foremost men too, and only one man knows how to truly please another man; only one man can understand the depth and feeling, the mind and body of another man.

All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men.

All homosexuals must stand together as brothers; we must be united artistically, philosophically, socially, politically and financially. We will triumph only when we present a common face to the vicious heterosexual enemy.

If you dare to cry faggot, fairy, queer, at us, we will stab you in your cowardly hearts and defile your dead, puny bodies.

We shall write poems of the love between men; we shall stage plays in which man openly caresses man; we shall make films about the love between heroic men which will replace the cheap, superficial, sentimental, insipid, juvenile, heterosexual infatuations presently dominating your cinema screens. We shall sculpt statues of beautiful young men, of bold athletes which will be placed in your parks, your squares, your plazas. The museums of the world will be filled only with paintings of graceful, naked lads.

Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable and de rigueur, and we will succeed because we are adept at setting styles. We will eliminate heterosexual liaisons through usage of the devices of wit and ridicule, devices which we are skilled in employing.

We will unmask the powerful homosexuals who masquerade as heterosexuals. You will be shocked and frightened when you find that your presidents and their sons, your industrialists, your senators, your mayors, your generals, your athletes, your film stars, your television personalities, your civic leaders, your priests are not the safe, familiar, bourgeois, heterosexual figures you assumed them to be. We are everywhere; we have infiltrated your ranks. Be careful when you speak of homosexuals because we are always among you; we may be sitting across the desk from you; we may be sleeping in the same bed with you.

There will be no compromises. We are not middle-class weaklings. Highly intelligent, we are the natural aristocrats of the human race, and steely-minded aristocrats never settle for less. Those who oppose us will be exiled.

We shall raise vast private armies, as Mishima did, to defeat you. We shall conquer the world because warriors inspired by and banded together by homosexual love and honor are invincible as were the ancient Greek soldiers.

The family unit-spawning ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy and violence--will be abolished. The family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will, must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.

All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of beauty, moral and esthetic. All that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too much is not enough.

The exquisite society to emerge will be governed by an elite comprised of gay poets. One of the major requirements for a position of power in the new society of homoeroticism will be indulgence in the Greek passion. Any man contaminated with heterosexual lust will be automatically barred from a position of influence. All males who insist on remaining stupidly heterosexual will be tried in homosexual courts of justice and will become invisible men.

We shall rewrite history, history filled and debased with your heterosexual lies and distortions. We shall portray the homosexuality of the great leaders and thinkers who have shaped the world. We will demonstrate that homosexuality and intelligence and imagination are inextricably linked, and that homosexuality is a requirement for true nobility, true beauty in a man.

We shall be victorious because we are fueled with the ferocious bitterness of the oppressed who have been forced to play seemingly bit parts in your dumb, heterosexual shows throughout the ages. We too are capable of firing guns and manning the barricades of the ultimate revolution.

Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks.

@DH: Apparently there are HIV infected individuals who will continue to spread HIV infection wherever they go. Those individuals need to be prosecuted and quarantined. They are a public health risk and need to be stopped. Here and abroad. Unfortunately, the pro-gay/homosexual activists do not contribute much to the solution.

Posted by: Dan @DH: Apparently there are HIV infected individuals who will continue to spread HIV infection wherever they go. Those individuals need to be prosecuted and quarantined. They are a public health risk and need to be stopped. Here and abroad. Unfortunately, the pro-gay/homosexual activists do not contribute much to the solution.

Posted by: Dan at December 23, 2009

Dan…

I find it very sad that practicing homosexuals are obsessed with having their sexual perversion, not oly tolerated, but blessed and condoned by society…

And they accept zero responsibility for the proliferation of the incurable BLACK PLAGUE of HIV/AIDS by the virulent disease infested homosexual fleas that are unleashed upon the worlds innocent peoples as a direct result and consequence of their perversion…

All that they are capable of is whining for sympathy for homosexual and condemning Christians for problems, while they murder innocent babies by infecting them with their diseases…

And now there are groups who claim to follow Jesus, who have given the rat cheerleaders of the virulent disease of the practice of homosexuality, positions of leadership….

The apostasy of it all, is nearly overwhelming…

@DH: As you know, HIV/AIDS is a political disease. As such, we all have to pay for the immorality of the gay/homosexual community. "Compared to the number of lives that cancer and heart disease claim each year, HIV/AIDS research received a disproportionate amount of federal funding. The federal government should reduce AIDS research funding and divert money to research programs fighting more pressing diseases such as heart disease and cancer, which claim hundreds of thousands more American lives annually."
For example:
In 1997, 16,516 Americans died of AIDS.
In 1997, heart disease claimed 726,974 lives

http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1141b-1.html

Posted by: Dan at December 23, 2009
@DH: As you know, HIV/AIDS is a political disease. As such, we all have to pay for the immorality of the gay/homosexual community. "Compared to the number of lives that cancer and heart disease claim each year, HIV/AIDS research received a disproportionate amount of federal funding. The federal government should reduce AIDS research funding and divert money to research programs fighting more pressing diseases such as heart disease and cancer, which claim hundreds of thousands more American lives annually."

For example:
In 1997, 16,516 Americans died of AIDS.

In 1997, heart disease claimed 726,974 lives

http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1141b-1.html

Posted by: Dan at December 23, 2009

Dan…

When you factor in that AIDS is a disease of choice and is chosen by nearly all of those infected with it through unprotected sex and IV drug use…

It amounts to untold millions of dollars being spent on keeping fanatical suicidal individuals bent upon not only their deaths, but taking out as many as they can take out with them and it makes about as much sense as engaging in humanitarian relief for the Insurgent Taliban and Al Qaeda, at the same time we are fighting them…

@DH: "It amounts to untold millions of dollars being spent on keeping fanatical suicidal individuals bent upon not only their deaths, but taking out as many as they can take out with them and it makes about as much sense as engaging in humanitarian relief for the Insurgent Taliban and Al Qaeda, at the same time we are fighting them…"
Pure political theater - of the absurd, that is.

Posted by: Dan at December 23, 2009
@DH: "It amounts to untold millions of dollars being spent on keeping fanatical suicidal individuals bent upon not only their deaths, but taking out as many as they can take out with them and it makes about as much sense as engaging in humanitarian relief for the Insurgent Taliban and Al Qaeda, at the same time we are fighting them…"

Pure political theater - of the absurd, that is.

Posted by: Dan at December 23, 2009

Dan…

And there you have it…

The actual salt of the earth types have been busily going about the business of being responsible citizens to a country who’s government has been selling the country out to Satan, piecemeal… And has now stepped it up to wholesale...

It is high time that the American public wakes up to and faces, this glaring reality…

''Most people prefer to believe that their leaders are just and fair, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which he lives is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all.''

-- Michael Rivero

And those organizations who claim Christ have invited the practicing homosexual element into their leadership….

How appalling…

A bizarre belief among many African black men that sex with a virgin -- even a child or baby -- can cure HIV/AIDS is fueling what is already one of the highest child sexual exploitation rates in the world.

According to the latest report by South Africa's Police Service, children are the victims of 41 percent of all rapes and attempted rapes reported in the country. Over 15 percent of all reported rapes are against children under 11, and another 26 percent against children 12-17. For the year 2000, some 58 children were raped or the victims of rape attempts in South Africa every single day.

The trend is worsening. Babies as young as only a few months old are being raped almost daily. Many black South African men infected with AIDS erroneously believe that by having sex with a virgin -- even a baby -- they will be cured of AIDS or their HIV infection.

South African police statistics show that last year alone, 21,538 rapes and attempted rapes of children under the age of 18 were reported. The KwaZulu-Natal province, which includes Durban, where concern has already been expressed over the sharp rise in child abuse cases, was top of the list with 4,797 reported cases in 2000, followed by Gauteng province (formerly Transvaal, which includes Johannesburg) with 4,316.

For the first six months of 2001, some 10,242 cases were reported, and once again KwaZulu-Natal recorded the highest figure with 2,236, followed by Gauteng with 2,076.
This level of crime contrasts with 1994, for example, when a total of 7,559 cases were reported – about one third of the current level. The figure increased dramatically over the next three years and in 1997 stood at 15,336.

It is believed that a large percentage of incidents go unreported, and police have launched extensive campaigns to inform women and children of their rights.
Police said research conducted over the past five years indicated that in 83 percent of sexual abuse cases, the perpetrators were known to their victims.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25806

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