Listen up, Uganda. It is time to quit allowing unfounded, biased, scientifically debunked MANY TIMES OVER, prejudices dominate those who have nothing to do with you. Get your heads right and EDUCATE yourselves, or pay the price.

This will be GREAT fun once heterosexuals start using this against EACH OTHER.

Claiming that their ex-husband or ex-wife or virtually anyone they want to get rid of is a gay person.

And exactly how will this be proven??? By making people engage in gay sex in front of a judge and jury and seeing if their face registers any pleasure???

Are heterosexuals born with brains these days, or have they evolved past them?

Uganda has been through the wringer with Idi Amin, Civil Wars, and the influx of Sudanese refugees. They have also fought back successfully against AIDS, reducing the rate of infection to 10%. Here, I point to the fact that this country has not had an opportunity to rest and recover from decades of trauma and discord. Do they see the open practice of homosexuality as making AIDS worse in their country?

Perhaps our Western values don't work for them, as they don't in most third world nations. Most East Africans I know look at homosexuality with great revulsion. I have noticed the same revulsion to homosexuality in the former Soviet Union. Gay Pride parade recipients were harassed in Moscow to the point that they could not march. Most of Africa is anit-gay; it's simply a fact. The same is true for much of the third world. Try holding a Gay Pride Parade in downtown Tripoli, Libya....or how about downtown Cairo, Egypt?

Like it or not, most countries on the planet do not embrace homosexuality as the norm. Raging at the Church of Uganda is counter productive, in my view. It may be more helpful to understand why they feel the way they do? Is it because of AIDS? Why don't we ask the Ugandans the reasons for this sentiment? How many other African nations have these types of laws on the books?

It is to say the least disappointing that the Church of Uganda,which has gained honor by defending the Christian view of marriage, is not apparently equally honorable in showing Christian compassion. It is not good enough to excuse them on cultural grounds. They have the whole of the New Testament as does the rest of the Christian world. They ought to have condemned those parts of the proposed Ugandan law which would enact the death penalty for repeated homosexual acts.

In defending the Christian view of sexuality against the inroads of pro-homosexual propagandists, it is necessary that we balance this with a proper sense of compassion.

I agree with Adrienne that most countries look at homosexuality with revulsion. No doubt this is partly caused by the thought of how men sexually penetrate men and how “unnatural” this is. It is also caused by people being taught by their church or mosque that homosexuality is sinful.

In Western countries, toleration and getting to know what homosexuals are really like as people, are slowly changing attitudes. This is assisted by revised interpretations of the “no male-male sex” verses of the Bible. But these new attitudes have yet to reach non-Western countries.

It's important to get the facts right. In its statement the Church of Uganda is not calling for amendments to the Anti-homosexuality bill 2009, rather for it to be abandoned. Instead it calls for current legislation under the Penal Code Act to be amended, in particular to give particular protection for the 'boy child.' The COU has already expressed its opposition to the death penalty, and in its new statement calls for the protection of confidentiality for counsellors, doctors, etc. in stark contrast to the tone of the proposed bill. Please let us not demonise the COU by suggesting that it has come out in support of the bill, instead let us try to listen carefully to what is actually being said and address our comments accordingly.

It is obvious that Christianity is not dedicated to God. It is inhuman, immoral and based on fear and repression. The Romans had the right idea. Feed the Christians to the lions!

Chris, you're flatly wrong about the Church of Uganda statement, which is expressly directed to THIS bill. The COU statement does NOT call for this bill to "be abandonded." Instead, it talks about putting some different things in the bill and "chang[ing] the title to something like "The Penal Code Unnatural Offences Amendment Bill."

The statement goes on to say that "We particularly appreciate the objectives of the Bill which seek to: ... b) prohibit and penalize homosexual behavior and related practices in Uganda as they constitute a threat to the traditional family."

The penalties in the Bill include the death penaly and life in prison provisions that are mandatory MERELY for consensual, adult same sex conduct. This official statement, while commenting on these provisions in the Bill, utterly FAILS to condemn them. Regardless of whatever else it tries to soften (the harsh penalties for its priests for failure to turn in all the gays they know to the authorities), it does NOT condemn the worst provisions of the Bill. For that reason, the Church of Uganda merits the harshest of criticism, not to mention expulsion from the Anglican community, and the ostracization from civilized society as we would with any other supporter of genocide.

It’s interesting that although African blacks suffered terrible persecution for 1700 years because of an extreme unreasoned belief in a scripture in Leviticus (old testament)"make slaves from the surrounding countries for life to be passed on your children as inheritance", they have now (led by their churches) chosen to embrace another scripture of that same book, with their own unreasoned extreme belief to persecute gays.

It’s also interesting that the majority of black churches in the u.s.a. support in varying degrees, this same position.

it is tragic that in order take this stand against homosexuality they would undermine the very faith they attempt to embrace, by keeping one foot firmly planted in the old covenant, by advocating a relationship to god thru regulation as in deut. 28, when in fact its directly to the one who lives in each believer.(torn curtain)

they would be hard pressed to show how homosexuality comes against the 2nd commandment(love your neighbor as yourself), the summation of all new covenant law, or the fruit of the spirit of christ..........love, joy, peace, kindness, patience, gentleness, goodness, self-control, and faithfulness.

BECAUSE IT DOESN’T!!!!!!!

the aids issue is a RED HERRING, it has been heterosexuality in africa that has been the mechanism for the wide spread of aids, and has contributed to the existence 30 million orphans.

" Raging at the Church of Uganda is counter productive, in my view. It may be more helpful to understand why they feel the way they do? Is it because of AIDS? Why don't we ask the Ugandans the reasons for this sentiment? How many other African nations have these types of laws on the books?"
Good point.
I would encourage those "raging" here to contact the Ugandan government with their complaints - if they haven't already. Also, since a large portion of the country is either Anglican or Catholic, expressing your rage to the Vatican or Canterbury may be helpful, too. But if all you do is rage here, well you won't accomplish much. I don't know any Christians who believe that killing homosexuals in a consentual relationship is the way to go. Now if you have a serial homosexual predator inflicting HIV infection on innocent children then maybe the Ugandan govt. ought to do something to stop him, ya think? Treat him like you would any other violent offender - get a rope (after a fair trial, of course.)

Dan: "Now if you have a serial homosexual predator inflicting HIV infection on innocent children then maybe the Ugandan govt. ought to do something to stop him, ya think? Treat him like you would any other violent offender - get a rope (after a fair trial, of course.)"

So, Dan, you advocate the same punishment for serial heterosexual predators infecting innocent children, correct? Given that the vast majority of AIDS cases in Africa are spread by heterosexual behavior, this will likely mean the execution of hundreds if not thousands of heterosexual Christian males like yourself. (Hung after a fair trial, of course.)

"...you advocate the same punishment for serial heterosexual predators infecting innocent children, correct?"
Yep!
"...this will likely mean the execution of hundreds if not thousands of heterosexual Christian males like yourself."
And your point?
And if I saw a scumbag raping a child and I had a weapon and could intervene - I would, without a second thought. The scumbag wouldn't need a trial - or a rope.
What would you do? Try to reason with him? Tell him you understand his anger? Tell him what he is doing isn't nice? Okaaaay! What if it is your child? What if it were you that was being raped?

Sexual orientation is not a choice, like being straight is not a choice. Laws like this only reflect the intolerance it can create.

"The bill suggests the death penalty for people have homosexual sex with minors, the disabled, while being HIV-positive, serial offenders, or if the person is in authority over another."

Homosexuality is irrelevant to this -- unless in Uganda it is legal to have heterosexual sex with minors, and the disabled etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------
The Atheist Perspective

"Sexual orientation is not a choice, like being straight is not a choice."

Please provide proof of this statement (actual, scientific proof, not anything like, "because I/they said so").

Jeremy,
I would have to agree with cybereagle. There is no proof that homosexuality is not a choice. Science has not proven what you would like to believe to be true. There is no gay gene, get over it. Having said that, choice is not the issue when it comes to the attraction only when it comes to acting on those attractions. As far as how we treat someone with same-sex attraction, it should only be with love and compassion. That does not mean that we should tolerate all forms of same-sex related behaviours indescriminately. They are not always life giving and in many cases can be extremely destructive.

Cybereagle777 - provide scientific proof that the creation story in Genesis is real. Give scientific proof of the divinity of Christ.

Come on... anyone who knows anything about sexuality knows it's ingrained in you. Proof that one does not choose to be gay or straight is provided by the success rate of Ex-Gay ministries.. look up those facts. Pitiful success rates.

Hey, wait a minute. Are we talking about Creationism or are we talking about the Church of Uganda recommending the amending of the anti-homosexuality bill? 'Cause I don't think we can do both.

How did we ever get onto creationism? It has nothing to do with this discussion. The sexual drive may be ingrained, but how that is manifested in us is no more ingrained or innate that many other behaviours that we are expected to make choices about. Bringing up a fundementalist interpretation of the creation at this time is a strawman to derail meaningful discussion on the topic of same-sex behaviour and has no relevance what so ever.

Dennis,

I was only responding to one of your statements, although I do apologize to everyone for my role in temporarily hijacking this thread.

I wrote the above post in a hurry. It was actually one of Jeremy's posts I was responding to.

Cybereagle77: I've temporarily ordained myself a priest for the next 30 seconds and I absolve you of your venial sin. As Jesus said: "No problemo - go and don't do it again." (quoted from the New Revised and Amplified Progressive Liberal Post Modern Translation) ;-P

We got on creationism because someone made a comment about wanting scientific proof that sexuality is engrained in someone.
I asked for scientific proof of creation... and the divinity of Christ.

That aside,

The success rate of ex gay ministries (or shoudl I say the failure rate) is proof enough.
Sexual orientation is not a choice. It's engrained.

"The success rate of ex gay ministries (or shoudl I say the failure rate) is proof enough. Sexual orientation is not a choice. It's engrained." Funny, I thought proof required more that anecdotal evidence of failure or success. Using your standard for proof - mere anecdotal evidence - one might easily prove creationism or the deity of Christ. And you say homosexuality is ingrained, but alcoholism is also thought to be ingrained - would you say the alcoholic doesn't have a choice - to drink or not to drink? Even if alcoholism is ingrained, do we encourage people to be alcoholics?

Just like one being able to drink responsibly and in an healhty outlet, a homosexual can also express themselves sexually in a healthy and responsible way. I do not support irresponsible, dangerous behaviours (gay or straight).

"Just like one being able to drink responsibly and in an healhty outlet, a homosexual can also express themselves sexually in a healthy and responsible way. I do not support irresponsible, dangerous behaviours (gay or straight)." You might be correct (except an alcoholic can never drink responsibly so I've been told) if it weren't for one little detail you're overlooking - the bible proscribes homosexual behavior totally and the bible condemns heterosexual sexual behavior outside of marriage. Now if you don't believe the bible then everything and anything is permitted within whatever the law accepts, and your discussion with Christians about homosexuality is rather pointless.

I do believe the Bible, I just think the Bible needs to be taken in context.
Everyone is called to live as faithfully unto God as they can, with what God has given them. I believe a homosexual can most certianly do that. in a healthy and responsible way.

Maybe having a discussion with a Christian about sexuality is pointless. That is too bad if that is the case. Considering I am a devoted Christian myself. If a Christian having a discussion with another Christian about sexuality is pointless, how much more pointless is it for a non-believer? Sad.

Since you claim to "believe" the Bible, please then please provide Scriptural support for your position that gays can live responsibly while practicing homosexuality. 'Cus bruh, I just don't see it in any of the translations, any more than I see biblical support for heterosexuals engaging in sexual behavior outside of marriage. And what's sad - aside from the fact you didn't pay attention to the little conditional "if" statement - is if you are engaging in homosexual sin, you seem to be justifiying your unfaithfulness to God and denying what His word clearly says.

I find it noteworthy that humans always find a group onto which they can inflict horror and hatred. At various times, it's been "Blacks," or "Jews," and more recently "Muslims" and "Gays." The name of the group changes, but the hatred continues...a hatred that has no real logical base, and when overturned (e.g. South Africa re: Blacks) the whole world seems to say, "Yes, finally, that horrible thing is gone." And then it's another group, then another.

If we don't stand up for those who are hated like this, soon they will come for us, whoever we are.

Before I say anything else, let me make a comment relevant to the topic: I don't believe in giving anyone special treatment. A good approach would be to discourage homosexuality, while also stating that anyone (and I do mean anyone) who knowingly has AIDS and who has sex with anyone will be charged with assault with a deadly weapon (or something similar). With the extremely high amount of homosexuals that develop AIDS, this would essentially criminalize homosexual activity in a way that would be hard to argue against.

Now, Mark, you forgot about the hatred toward Christians that has been present for many years from Muslims, atheists, liberals, and others. Care do address that? Also, while not all Muslims are terrorists, a majority of current terrorist threats around the world are from Muslims, hence the concern other countries have about them.

Romans 10:8-13 (New International Version)
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[a] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[b] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[c]

No i do not think Mark forgot Christians. I think hatred of Christians is one of those groups histroically.

The thing that keeps biting the Christian Church in the butt is how quickly they forget how it feels to be hated and oppressed. We 9as a hole) have not let hatred make us stronger in love, but stronger in hatred.

I understand that if a married man contracts HIV the doc/hospital/counselor/minister cannot inform his wife without his permission due to legal issues. If true, that really sucks! Might as well condemn her to death or a life of taking meds.

While the church's acceptance of this bill is surprising to me, and I unashamedly have an opinion on the matter, we must approach even our criticism of this issue willing to listen to the reasons of the other side. Wouldn't you react strongly against homosexuality if it has been one of the behaviors that has contributed to the AIDS epidemic prevalent in your county? Wouldn't you go to great lengths to safeguard against any further spread of an epidemic that ravaged your land?

Perhaps a point of agreement can be that the church should be respected for caring about the physical health of its country's citizens as well as its attempt to take a stand on an issue that the Bible speaks clearly about. By no means am I endorsing the act of the church. In contrast, I actually do not support their position at all because I feel like it creates a hierarchy of sin. Furthermore, if homosexuality is not genetic, then where is the hope for change in the individual if they are immediately sentenced to the death penalty after a homosexual act? There is an inconsistency in logic here. I do not feel comfortable with the death penalty in general, even more a death penalty aimed towards a specific group of people. These are only a few of my points of objection.

Comments attacking the church or Christianity in general get us nowhere; They distract us from the issue at hand and attempt to demonize the other side rather than discuss the issues peacefully. Even over blog comments we are interacting with real humans, even if we are all strangers to each other. May we continue to discuss issues passionately and with fervor, but also with the humility to recognize that we are all coming from different points of reference.

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Before I say anything else, let me make a comment relevant to the topic: I don't believe in giving anyone special treatment. A good approach would be to discourage homosexuality, while also stating that anyone (and I do mean anyone) who knowingly has AIDS and who has sex with anyone will be charged with assault with a deadly weapon (or something similar). With the extremely high amount of homosexuals that develop AIDS, this would essentially criminalize homosexual activity in a way that would be hard to argue against.