As a someone who does marketing for books, I would strongly urge people who have only read the marketing copy or watched a promotional video hold off judgment until they read the author's actual words. Marketing copy for books are written by marketers--rarely by the book's author.

Kudos to HarperOne's marketing team. Job well done. I'd imagine this kind of buzz before the book's release can only improve sales.

Great article! Really gets me into the loop here. I agree with McKnight's comments, especially on the flippancy of the high-and-mighty Christian leaders. But everyone messes up, so I can look past that.

here is a quote from the actual book.

"Love demands freedom. We are free to resist, reject, and rebel against God's ways for us. We can have all the hell we want."

this is classic lewis, keller, and wright...

an interesting post here from a person who has ACTUALLY read it - http://being-the-body.blogspot.com/2011/02/love-wins.html

I have not read the book nor will I. I have watched several of Rob's teaching video series, listened to a couple of his sermons, and read two of his books and one thing NOBODY can deny is Rob is liberal at best in his theology.

This current debate was stirred not by a marketing guy at some publishing house, but by Rob's OWN words. Although I don't agree with John Piper's "Farewell Rob" tweet and the other tweets along those lines so much I do agree with people's disagreement with Rob's stance (according to his video). Rob is a great communicator, but is flawed at best in the teaching of theology. I, too pray for Rob daily and hope that he changes his theological stance.

There actually is a biblical case for everyone going to heaven:
http://wp.me/PNthc-i6

Jesus Christ is the only way. However, He is the way that works for everyone. "If we are faithless, He remains faithful."

An Open Letter to Justin Taylor Regarding His Condemnation of Rob Bell
http://bit.ly/fLawpU

Like the above commenter said, these are not new ideas. It's just amazing how long they take to work their way into the public mind. Why are we getting so mad at Bell? C.S. Lewis was saying similar things long ago ( http://re9v2.tk ) and we're still crazy about him!

Hmmmm... just the other day Donald Miller had a wonderful blog about how it's not "liberal theology" but infighting that will kill the church. Very timely.
http://donmilleris.com/2011/02/17/how-infighting-will-kill-the-church/

Great post...maybe we all should read Matthew 18 and apply it! We're basing our opinions on a promo video! Could it be marketing genius and everyone took the bait? Thank you for a genuine Christian response instead of an immature reaction. I think there are better things we could be "trending" as a community like liberating Northern Africa and the middle east. Let's disciple the nations by showing them how we love one another!

Frankly I believe Twitter to be a great social medium tool to overthrow Middle East dictators, but too limited to expose possible heretics in Christendom. Bad enough there is the Christian WatchBlog wars, but there now the WatchTwitter wars. Truly Twitter is replacing Christian blogs for persons too lazy to post more than 140 words on any Christian topic.

Miss the good old days when debates were done in book form like Martin Luther's "The Bondage of the Will". I suppose if Martin Luther was alive today, that book would be exposed on Twitter as proving Luther a heretic before the book was published. Back in Luther's day books were so expensive to publish that there was a tendency to publish good quality material. Thanks to the Internet it is cheap to publish trash and that is typically what is published.

Lots of Christians would be better off reading a classic Christian book than reading most of the material typical Christians blogs and tweets. I suggest a good book to read is Martin Luther's "On Christian Liberty". I am sure many Watchblogs would pen a "Open Letter to Martin Luther" after reading this book.

I think McKnight hits the nail on the head here. If we have a problem with a fellow believer, personal correspondence is the first step.

Christians have a problem with Rob Bell because he does not teach tradition Christian doctrine.

We need to realize the Scriptures do not say to follow Christianity.

I'm not sure whether the emergent church movement is headed in the right direction or not; antinomianism is a chameleon that always comes back in new clothes. However, Rob Bell is talking to the lost, not asking for approval from the "Christian Establishment." If Rob Bell is suggesting that eternal life begins when a person is born again through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then he's right, period. Read your Bible if you disagree. If you're worried that sinners will be less fear-motivated as a result of Bell's book, what difference does it make? They're lost, and if this book helps them find Jesus, then praise God. If not, arguing about his message won't help them.

Rob Bell's detractors have often neglected to personally contact him for clarification, which I think is going against biblical commands. From that, I would suggest that some of Bell's detractors may also be guilty of sin against Rob Bell. Also, having read the book in question back then (Velvet Elvis) some of the arguments are based on a blatant distortion or misrepresentation of what Bell meant. If they can't be bothered to get the context correct in quoting Bell, then I have no confidence of them getting the context correct in their reading the bible. In particular, I don't think Bell ever denied the virgin birth, that's not the point of his message was. As an aside, interesting that virgin birth is so central to the Christian doctrine, but it's not even mentioned in passing in two of the Gospels.

That said, maybe Bell is a Universalist, but unlike some people, I'm not going to crucify someone based on someone elses' impression of a promotional chapter.

if rob is not going to teach traditional christianity then he should not call himself a traditional christian. Actually,the term christian is used too liberally in today's society and such a generic label is acceptable for a person with such loose interpretations of God's words. A "traditional" christian however would not have his name associated with this dribble. I believe that if one part of the bible is true then the rest of it is true. We cannot pick and choose which parts of the bible we want to believe. That being said Jesus says that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Literal translation: all people since the creation of Adam and Eve have sinned in one way or another and are not worthy of living an eternity in Heaven because "The God" is holy and righteous and without fault and will not contradict himself. Liberal translation: all people are guilty of sin but it is OK surely "a god" of love would not hold this against us even though he says he will. I could go on and on but I won't because I am sure that you have heard it all before, but when the time does come I pray that I am on the literal not liberal side of the fence.

This is directly from Rob Bell's church website on what they believe. He did found the church, so I'm imagining what they believe as a church, he believes. And it sounds pretty clear to me:

"We believe these longings found their fulfillment in Jesus the Messiah, conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, mysteriously God having become flesh. Jesus came to preach good news to the poor, to bind up the brokenhearted and set captives free, proclaiming a new arrival of the kingdom of God, bringing about a new exodus, and restoring our fractured world. Jesus is our only hope for bringing peace and reconciliation between God and humans. Through Jesus we have been forgiven and brought into right relationship with God. God is now reconciling us to each other, ourselves, and creation. The Spirit of God affirms as children of God all those who trust Jesus."

It is so difficult to watch this short little video and not respond. The video most definitely, is stirring up the blogging waters! With all the publicity being generated from the responses, it probably will increase sales. Assuming Zondervan is it, and Mr. Bell, are honest and honourable, this could not be a ruse with that intent-so he must mean exactly what he says.

We want to be wrong about where the words of this man appear to be leading those who choose to follow. May we who are all thinking that, be wrong. Only time will tell, but it is hard not to draw those conclusions based on so many statements over the years, isn't it?

However, as I write this, these words come to mind:
Peter asked Jesus, "What about him, Lord?" Jesus replied, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You follow me." So the rumor spread among the community of believers that that disciple wouldn't die. But that isn't what Jesus said at all. He only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

I now ask myself, are some of us spending far too much time worrying about Rob Bell and the theology of some others? Hmmm...since God is Sovereign, is all Knowing, is Love, Just, Merciful, Gracious, Compassionate, Holy and all that His Word of Truth says, we must remember to pray for each other more and we must remember:

1Cr 10:12 NIV - So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall

We are not told that we can not go to our brothers and sisters in Christ to correct/help them, but we are warned by Jesus:
Luke 6:42 NIV - How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

May God give us all wisdom and discernment and may we walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh. May God convict any of us, if we adhere to the teachings of any human above God's Infallible Word. It isn't just those who follow Mr. Bell's teachings, but I have read of many who love Jesus Christ, who label themselves, "Calvinsts," "Arminians," "Pentecostals," "Evangelicals," "Protestants," and so on, instead of just "Christian." Does that not mean, that there are many of us, who are stumbling ourselves by the mere fact that we are subscribing to specific human interpretations of God's Word?" Is it any different than all this? I don't know, just a thought that came to mind.

We all better make sure the planks are out of our own eyes (including mine) before we utter a word about anyone else.

May God help us all!

Also important to remember that these interpretations are the inspired word of the Lord. If an interpretation be an interpretation I want no part of it. I agree with Dweedledum I don't want a liberal translation I want to be "taken"- literally.

I think most of the people who originally watched this promo video and read the promo for this book, did so just like they hear a sermon every Sunday and read the Bible, with a lick and a promise. Are you really listening to what he is saying? Are you really reading the promo? Mr. Bell does not say Ghandi IS in heaven, he is only posing a question. We as Christians, just like Mr. Piper, are so quick to judge, when we are told in God's own word to be careful about judging, becuase we will be judged with the same judgement we use on others. We look at the outward man, but God looks upon the heart. We can look at signs, but ultimately we can not know the truth of a human's spiritual condition, that is between each individual and God almighty, Himself. After all, would any of us without the help of the Bible have given David the benefit of the doubt? He was an adulterer, a murderer and a lousy father! And the point of eternal life....it does begin here on earth at the point of our acceptance of God's love and His grace! It does not have to wait until the afterlife. I have always found Mr. Bell's videos to be thought-provoking and they cause me to do some true soul searching. The Church is not doing their job in present God and Jesus Christ in a manner that makes 3000 people WANT to associate with us, so.......what are we doing or saying wrong. "Study to show yourselves approved unto God. A workman that needeth not to be ashamed." Are we studying the WORD or pointing fingers and pointing out sins?

That's a lot of "he said, she said" for a book that's NOT YET PUBLISHED!

Love does win. Through Christ alone!

Yes, we need to be careful about correctly judging each other, but what about all of those scriptures in the NT that talk about false teachers/prophets? There is one scripture that says, "if anyone comes to you preaching a different gospel, let him be accursed." It's pretty easy to judge whether someone is preaching a different gospel - get your bible out and actually LOOK UP what the teacher is saying. Too many people will take what some bible teacher says as gospel truth, just because they're famous! What seems to be so sad is that MOST of these "teachers" who teach fasle doctrine, seem to be the ones with tv shows, famous podcasts, conferences, etc! (keep in mind I'm not saying every bible teacher with a tv show is teaching false doctrine)
The bible says that if someone is teaching false doctrine, to have NOTHING to do with that person, that if you even greet a false teacher, that you are sharing in their evil works. Yes, read Bell's book in it's entirety, but if what Bell has written in his book is does not agree with God's holy word, then people DO need to be warned to stay away. I have not read the book, but I find that most of the teaching coming from the emergent church movement is not founded on the Bible. Buyer beware, as God slso says that WE along with leaders are responsible for fereting out false leaders from the true.

"that makes 3000 people WANT to associate with us" So you think telling people they're guilty of killing Jesus would do the trick?

God draws people to Jesus, not you, me or Mr. Bell. On the other hand, we can play a role in keeping people from the Kingdom.

Above we were given this statement from Bell's Church's website, "Through Jesus we have been forgiven and brought into right relationship with God." I'd be more comfortable if it had said, "Through Jesus we CAN BE forgiven . . ." The latter leads to Jesus while the website seems to lead people to believe they're already there.

"Frankly, John Piper's flippant dismissal of Rob Bell is unworthy of someone of Piper's stature."

To the contrary, it is entirely consonant with his character.

"Kudos to HarperOne's marketing team. Job well done."

Yeah, right: great job. To promote his next book, why don't you consider burning crosses? In my opinion, this is terrible marketing. It's shock value, and anyone from Howard Stern to Marilyn Manson knows how to do it.

I agree that we should wait to see what the book actually says before we all start casting stones. If it does show Rob Bell to be a universalist, then the marketing team has hit the nail on the head, and good for them. If it shows Rob Bell presenting Biblical truth and Christ-centric faith, then if I were him I'd hire a new publisher. It would mean they're misleading at best, and outright lying at worst, and that's no way to promote the Truth.

Sorry Rob Bell,

Jesus is the only way to heaven!

I wonder how many persecuted believers in Palestine, China, or Africa retweeted about this. They most likely had other things going on... like ministry. You know, think of the thousands of LDS missionaries knocking door to door yesterday worldwide spreading their faith while we were yelling at our laptops. Nice work American Evangelicals! No wonder Korea and Africa are sending missionaries to the States...

Asking McKnight to weigh in here is like asking NT Wright what he thinks of NPP.

JT will not owe Rob Bell a "huge apology" the video clip is disturbing in asking leading questions the demean traditional orthodox teaching. JT has every right to say this is troubling for a guy that has such massive influence.

I think McKnight might end up owing an apology to the church in regularly supporting guys like McLaren and Bell and then the books actually come out and it turns out they are exactly what people thought they would be. We have already seen this story in the hype of the pre-release with McLaren's book, as he embraced universalism.

>> "I wonder how many persecuted believers in Palestine, China, or Africa retweeted about this..."

Hats off to Matt... Don't lose focus.

JDE is right on. We do not have to wait for the book to come out, how you choose to market a book directly relates to the content of the book and the heart behind it. The reality is Rob Bell is an influential man representing the Christian faith, in my opinion there is no room for games like that when you are representing Christ. If a "Christian Publisher" thinks there is, then they only prove what many already know about the "Christian Book" industry... some in it are after one thing, the almighty dollar!

Some follow-up thoughts on Rob Bell's Video:

The Theology of Rob Bell: Making Evil Good and Good Evil
www.pastormattrichard.com/2011/02/theology-of-rob-bell-making-evil-good.html

Read in context, Don Miller's tweet is in response to @adamantius noting via Twitter how sad it is that people are responding so harshly and hatefully to Rob Bell's book announcement. Don is not saying satan is at work in what Rob is doing or writing or saying. You might throw that in there in an EDIT.

From the video and excerpts I've read it looks good to me:

Rob is critiquing how we present God and the Gospel to non-Christians. We have presented God as bloodthirsty and someone that we need saving from. This is a bit of a turn off for non-Christians. Rob is saying that we should find better ways to communicate the Gospel and who God is.

Seriously, what's all fuss about? He's asking the right questions.

I wonder when the condemning tweets will start against CS Lewis?

Oh, yeah, he's dead.

And that would mess up evangelical's hypocritical need to still claim him as one their own.

Mark 9:40

I think the question is worth asking... i am positive that the process of understanding or rather listening for the heart of God will not be as cut and dry as we might hope. SO in that regard... i will definitely read the book... i respect Rob for "chewing with his mouth open"... sure it is messy, and sure not everyone "wants" to see all that mastication... but i like the fact i know what he is eating.

I hate however, how we as people who are supposed to filled with love and grace are so quick to shoot our own based on PURE SPECULATION... or a product description meant to make you want to read further.

I'm not saying we should take his word as gospel or denounce him as a heritic... i am saying well... we hear him out... maybe chew on it with him... and see what the Holy Spirit is saying in the process.

David Platt also tweeted about hell (from Spurgeon) this morning. Radical is an amazing book, but I hope these guys like Warren, Platt, and even the Gospel Coalition guys aren't trying to squat on this thing to sell more books. Conversely, I hope Bell isn't silent partially to let the controversy continue and sell more books as well. NONE of these guys should be motivated by their wallets.

It seems we need to find a happy medium between the love of God and the justice of God. Leaning too heavily in either direction has the capacity to lead us in inappropriate directions. “God is Love” and “God is Light” are not two contradictory statements, so we have to find a way to hold them both at the same time, without allowing either one to dominate. Love may cause us to eliminate hell all-together; while Light may cause us to focus almost exclusively on it. Either option is an over-emphasis that demands revision; for universalists on the one side and Calvinists (etc) on the other.

Thank you for your voice of reason.

Ultimately we should wait until the book is out so that it can be read and evaluated sentence by sentence.

I think many of us know that Evangelical Christianity does not have an official Vatican to determine what is officially orthodox and what is not. There are no Bishops or Cardinals who can excommunicate you if you are a heretic.

With so many independent churches out there (Like Bell's) leaders are free to interpret the Bible and its message and adapt themselves to the culture as they see fit. This is part of our free market society which also applies to area of religion.

Ryan,
You have the money quote here:
I think McKnight might end up owing an apology to the church in regularly supporting guys like McLaren and Bell and then the books actually come out and it turns out they are exactly what people thought they would be.

Also, if the publisher's own summary of the book is accurate, then Rob Bell is indeed telling us that
a) Christ's words about hell cannot be taken at face value
b) Christians have totally misunderstood Scripture's teaching on hell for 2,000 years
c) Rob Bell is with the Jehovah's Witnesses on hell

It might do a lot of commenters here good to read a very thoughtful precursor to Bell, Hans Urs Von Balthazar's, "Dare We Hope 'That All Men Shall Be Saved'?" What Von Balthazar states is not that the scripture is ambiguous about universal or limited salvation. Rather, it's clear on both and provides for both. What he goes on to ask (and his book, much like Lewis's "Narnia" series is a "supposal"), is which teaching is more in keeping with love of God and love of neighbor? To put a finer point on it, which better guards against the very human tendency to people hell based on our own prejudices, biases, and vastly limited understanding of the mind and heart of God? I will have to read Bell's book.

Not sure if you saw my response to Justin Taylor or not. it is crazy how many people have connected with this issue. The divisions are breaking the heart of God.

My response deals with a prediction of where Rob may go with this book and calls for the reformed crowd to not judge a book by its cover: http://thepangeablog.com/2011/02/26/if-rob-bell-is-a-universalist-then-maybe-i-am-along-with-many-prominent-evangelicals/

Peace.

Kurt

The book has endorsements by Eugene Peterson (wrote the horrendous interpretation, "The Message") and Greg Boyd (espouses the heresy of Open Theism)?

That should be enough to know that the Biblically knowledgable should reject the contents of the book.

Let's hope Rob Bell's new book is as good as it sounds. Over the years a growing number of theologians have dismissed eternal hellfire for what it is--a wrong reading of the Bible, and an outrageous slur against the name of our loving God. And dismissing the idea of an eternal hellfire does not make someone a universalist. You can still believe that God will honor people's decision to reject Him, and that the inevitable consequence of this decision will be eternal death. Obviously God will do everything to prevent that from happening, but in the end He honors the free choice that He created.

Jdg 9:15 And the bramble-bush said to the trees, If you truly anoint me king over you, come put your trust in my shadow. And if not, let fire come out of the bramble and burn up the cedars of Lebanon.

Who besides brambles would dare fancy themselves keepers and stewards of the eternal flames of wrath?

And what, take away our psychological power-tools, and all hell will break loose?

Lord have mercy.

Many churchians have no conception of evil, because so much has been airbrushed out of history - the fact that President Harry Truman ordered the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki after the Japanese government signaled their readiness to negotiate a surrender (Robert Junck Brighter than a Thousand Suns (1958) pp. 189-191, Martin J Sherwin A World Destroyed (1975) pp. 235-237), for example.

Why wasn't Rob Bell interviewed for this article?

No matter how often it's been preached, you'll not find a single scripture that indicates that ANY good man goes to hell.

Further, the nefarious doctrine of Original Sin, which would allow for millions of unsaved/unbaptized infants to burn in hell forever and ever and ever (and which we sidestep by coming up with the equally unscriptural notion of the "age of accountability), is a doctrine that FORCES us to think that God cannot be good in any sort of sense that we understand good to be.

What sort of God sends infants to an eternal hell?

For that matter, what sort of God sends a 16-year-old boy to hell FOREVER for stealing a candy bar? We wouldn't think of executing that child, yet God will punish him FOREVER?

That's not a God we can trust or serve out of love. If we serve Him, we have no way of knowing that He'll do His part...after all, He doesn't have the same conception of good that we do.

Rob,
I saw your video and was once a real fan of your but now - how very sad. You are asking the WRONG question of us and of God! The real question is how can God save ANY of us when we have all sinned and there is not one righteous person among us! While we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us. God shows His unfathomable grace and love towards us in that while we were hopelessly lost in our sin, God did not wipe us out as He would have been thoroughly justified in doing. He graciosly saved us from the wrath to come and offered EVERY human being a way out, such is His love that He appears in dreams and visions to those who are truly seeking the one God. How can you even ask such a question and put God through a human grid of justice when YOU KNOW that God sets the standard. I'm afraid you have been won by our humanistic age that says man is the center of the universe and God better do our bidding. I will pray that God brings you back to your senses and you begin to see God as He defines Himself.
God Help You!!!
Nancy Spitters

Be sure to check out the definitive work on this topic, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment by biblical languages scholar Edward Fudge. The much anticipated new edition is scheduled for release this May or June.

Realize the book has not been put out yet but even from this video one can see Rob Bell is way off base. Yes, Jesus does save us from the wrath of God!! For that we can be eternally thankful. The wrath of God was placed on Jesus. His death makes not sense. Jesus said, fear Him who can send body and soul into hell." I do love and fear God and Jesus calls me to that. If I don't need Jesus to make heaven, I quit. My sin nature is too strong for me to overcome by myself without the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 12:4. the struggle against the world, the flesh and the devil is a real one. Rob Bell is making public statements and it is fine for John Piper to tweet about it publically. We all should be warned against this nonsense, especially those whom God is calling out of darkness into the kingdom of his dear Son.

Late To Parade - Again

The contemporary evangelical church has a habit of showing up late to major cultural transitions. We insist on leading a parade for which we showed up late and which started without us. Our first response seems to be to deny there even is a parade, then to insist that the weather isn’t really good for a parade anyway, and finally we reluctantly agree to participate, but only the condition that we be allowed to lead it and determine who should or shouldn’t participate in the parade. I could draw out the analogy even further, but why wear out a good parade float.

Enter the topic of “Universalism” - the idea that everyone (“All Dogs”) eventually goes to heaven and that hell is actually empty. It’s back . . . with a vengeance. As I demonstrate in my book, “All Dogs Go To Heaven, Don’t They?”, this aberrant doctrine isn’t new, nor has it ever been widely adopted in the Church. And history demonstrates that where ever it is adopted, other sound doctrines quickly fall like dominoes (you can read about them in my book). But in recent years, Universalism has been gaining an ascendency and a following among a fringe of professing evangelical Christians led by a small cadre of thinkers such as Thomas Talbot and Clark Pinnock. More importantly (from my perspective) it has been growing like a “fire-in-the-grass” on the internet. When it showed up among a group of house churches in Oregon three years ago I was moved to write a book refuting it.

Over a year-and-a-half ago I submitted the manuscript for that book to Crossway Publishers. After a positive internal review they declined to publish it citing other commitments. We chose to self-publish the book, and it is now available on Amazon.com. What’s this got to do with being late to the parade? Enter a blog post this week by Justin Taylor, vice president of editorial at Crossway (yep, the same Crossway), critiquing an upcoming book by Rob Bell of Mars Hill fame which appears to promote Universalism. If true, this would be a disappointing and potentially catastrophic development, due in no small part to Bell’s widespread popular appeal, as well as his being a recognized (if controversial) leader in the evangelical church. But for other evangelical leaders to decry a discussion of Universalism as if it is some how “new” is to arrive seriously late to a postmodern parade of doubt and skepticism toward traditional biblical doctrine that has been underway for some time now. Those of us who have been working in the trenches outside the cloistered walls of evangelicalism have had first hand experience in this coming wave of doctrinal doubt, and have actively sought to engage it, only to be turned away by evangelical leaders, including the editors of Crossway. You are now late to a parade (one which you actually had a chance to lead a couple of years ago) which is now well underway.

The smoldering grass fire is now about to erupt into open flame. As I argue I my book, Universalism potentially represents the suicide of Christian theology. Everything else - doctrine, morals, missions and more - all hang together on this linchpin. If it fails - if we fail to adequately address it - you might as well become a Buddhist. Only three questions remain for the evangelical church: Why didn’t you see this coming? Do you fully understand the danger you now find yourself in? What is your plan to respond, in a manner that is both biblically sound and which addresses the Postmodern doubt and skepticism that underlies contemporary suspicion toward Christianity and it’s orthodox doctrinal heritage.

I am misunderstanding Scot McKnight's concern over John Piper's tweet. McKnight says, "John Piper's flippant dismissal of Rob Bell is unworthy of someone of Piper's stature." Is his concern that the book was not available to Piper in whole for him to justify such comments or was it that Piper, even in full knowledge of the contents, is not eligible for such a comment about a fellow "Bible teacher?" Time will tell if Bell is writing in this book that there is no literal hell and if he is selling the health wealth gobity gook about heaven on earth etc. That stuff appeals to masses and more folks mean more dollars that conveniently supplies the means for the author to partake without conviction in the life of meistic, heaven-on-earth, high-on-the-horse living. If Bell is suggesting this, wouldn't this completely dismantle the entirty of the Gospel and discredit the Spirit designed ideals of the 1st century church from which the entirty of the New Testament cannon was written? Jesus was more than flippant with the pharisees and a significant part of the NT was written by Holy Spirit guided men in attempt to boldly extinguish the flames of heresy and apostacy -much of which was profit driven. We sheep have not changed much and if Bell is indeed a spade then I will gladly join Piper in calling him one. There is nothing on this earth more satisfying than taking the opportunity to surrender all to the Maker of this universe and to our God who IS love! Next to communion with the true and living God, there is hardly a thing more joy provoking than throwing a true Biblical life raft, free of charge to those searching for God who otherwise may have regressed to religion TV and hyper marketed silliness in book form for a boosted self-esteem massage!

The test of Christianity is not what one considers the ultimate fate of the wicked; it has to do with who Jesus is, what He has accomplished for mankind by His cross and resurrection...and what our response to these critical truths must be (i.e. repentance and faith).

I will have to wait to read what Rob Bell says on these issues, and not simply about how He sees Christ's accomplishments working out for unbelievers who have or have not sinned against the Holy Spirit, before judging him a heretic.

Like others have said, it will be necessary to read Bell's book. However, as it stands, it sure "sounds" like a universalist approach to heaven and hell. If so, unless you completely allegorize Scripture, it's an indefensible position. So, in that sense, he has just sold another book...to me.

It is amazing how much commerce is ending up in the comments of this post.

Greg, I think Scot McKnight objected to the flippancy of Piper's response, not his eligibility to make such a statement.

Gotta love how HarperOne played the masses like a drum. They dangled a worm and it was snapped up by anyone with a laptop. This is marketing - not theology - playing itself out at this point.

it would take a book to unravel some of the questions in the vid. Take the Gandi = in hell claim contradicts Paul in his letter to the Romans re the importance of concience and the law and the prerogative of God to unveil hidden intentions in the human mind. It is also questionable that mere belief or intellectual assent is sufficient for salvation. Surely it is necessary but not sufficient. It takes a life/lifestyle yielded to God to save us. Also why is it so important to threaten people with hell? It can be fair warning to those who are habitually cruel and greedy but, wow, do we have to make threats an item of doctrine. So, anyway, Jesus as the way, with his divine mercy wins out in the end when we all are stupid and cruel in our spiritual poverty.

I would direct Mr. Bell to Jesus words in Luke 8:4-15 !!!

The natural by-product of Bell's all-consuming Graciousness of God, if carried to its logical conclusion, is that even Satan him/her/itself will be 'saved'. Now, that's Amazing Grace indeed!!!

I didn't get the random Warren jab at the end. It seemed contrived and out of place, given the rest of the article.

I'm excited to hear what Rob will say in regards to this issue. My guess would be he responds with much more grace than was given to him, but only because Jesus has radically transformed his life.

Here were my thoughts on the whole issue:
“The enemy is much ignored when we fight this Christian civil war”
http://www.taintedcanvas.com/rob-bells-love-wins/

Rob Bell is SO engaging as a speaker- and as a SPEAKER and communicator, I've learned from his style and delivery. His words "The Goods News- it's better than that", I've even quoted in a sermon- this this is true! However, I do from time to time dissagree with much of his theology.

I truely with Bell would write a Sytematic Theology, or to write a Biblical Commentary. I think it would generate great discussion- but this isn't going to happen.

On the other hand, it would be nice if he could just say what he truely believes in a subsinct manner- (it's actually good practice)

The Great Commission- 95 words
Good Confession- 10 words
Nicene Creed- 222 words
Apostles Creed- 114 Words

But this isn't going to happen either.

Thankfully there are voices of reason like Scot McKnight who do not dismiss based on other's words, but will wait until he has read it for himself; and after reading the work, would welcome civil discourse instead of 'excommunicating' the writer.

If Mr. Bell is trying to discover what God's Word does in the lives of people hearing it (regarding salvation for some and damnation for others),he need look no further than these words of our Lord Jesus:

"And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”
10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.” Luke 8:4-15 (New King James Version)

Once again, and it happens regularly, Scot McKnight proves himself to be the most reasonable person in the room. Thanks, Scot.

So I find a lot of what is being thrown around about this topic interesting. However, the thing I find even more interesting is this new version of blogging that I am seeing demonstrated by people like John Piper. This idea that once something has been “published” it can be changed as the situation changes is rather odd to me. John Piper editing his blog to change the ending, assuming because he was getting some negative feedback based on the harsh stand he took in the first closing he wrote to his post, is just odd to me.

As a writer myself I don’t write things I don’t mean and when I write them I let them stand on their own. I might come back to a topic and post a clarifying comment or even a follow-up blog posting, but I would have never considered rewriting the end of a story/post, because if it wasn’t what I meant to say it would not have been posted to begin with… I just have to question the writing integrity of someone that feels their ideas and opinions cannot stand on their own with out historical revision.

On the matter of the topic at hand, I have to say that Rob Bell was instrumental in my returning to Christ. I read his book the Velvet Elvis and it gave me a view of Christianity that I had not experienced in my youth. I believe that a number of the things that are currently being, or have historically been said about Rob Bell are similar to the things that were said about Jesus in his day as he challenged the “established church ideals” of the time. I think anyone that can bring people to Christ, can make people think and question, and can scare of few of the current Pharisees might just be in some good company when his days here are at an end.

Why is Rob Bell dressed as Gru from Despicable Me?

I see a whole new industry developing -- evaluating publishers' descriptions and promotional videos of books. Can we look forward to the NEW YORK REVIEW OF PUBLISHER'S DESCRIPTIONS and the NEW YORK TIMES BOOK VIDEO PROMOTION REVIEW?

It's true that Rob Bell isn't saying anything new. All of his books/sermons/theology have been nothing but a regurgitation of neo-orthodoxy. The fact is that anyone who has followed him at all has known this is coming. Bell has questioned the truth of Scripture, distorted the Gospel, and caused many to question their faith. Bell has never been an evangelical. Did Justin Taylor and John Piper and the like rush to judgment? Maybe, seeing as the book hasn't been released yet, but Bell's own words in the video, and the book's review, and Bell's history, all point toward the inevitable truth, which is that Bell has finally been exposed for the heretic he is. The most frustrating aspect of the entire ordeal is when Don Miller and other liberals like him, make statements about how judgmental we of the Reformed/Evangelical tradition are and how it's our judgmentalism and not their own heresy that will be the downfall of Christianity. Never have Scripture's warnings about wolves in sheep's clothing been more poignant.

The way to disagree with someone of Rob Bell's influence is not a tweet of dismissal but a private letter or a phone call.

While the call against flippancy might be important, this soft approach to never publicly calling out bad teaching is just false. Rob Bell is not some new Christian with questions or some as-yet uncorrected views. He is a professing believer, pastor, teacher and person of influence. Assuming that the universalism charge against him is accurate—and we can argue over that somewhere else, it's not important for this point—he should be called out publicly and for everyone to see, not only for his own good, but for the good of the flock. At times, public reproof is necessary.

That's so funny, SB - I wonder how dated that outfit will look in 5 years, not to mention 20!

Universalism is not a heresy. It has been around since the first days of the church and many notable theologians and leaders were and are universalists. C.S. Lewis's mentor George McDonald was, Karl Barth leans that direction, to name a few. I'm glad Bell is at least considering the options because it is an important topic for every generation to openly consider. It is actually way more important than most people understand it to be, in part because Jesus told the disciples, "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven" (Jn 20:23, NIV) Therefore it is up to the church to DECIDE. For example: Can Satan be saved?? What would happen if he was???

as a newly recognized unitarian universalist who grew up in the traditional evangelical, calvinistic, pre-milen, end times paranoia type of christianity, i ask:

why don't we all just start really talking to (and hearing) one another?

you know- on a human being to human being level?

so many sides, labels, assumptions, rules, exceptions, translations, etc. get in the way, and keep us divided. I know that I just used a label for myself, because i recognize that many of you stopped reading after that label ... which only emphasizes my point.

love isn't winning right now. re-read your own comments and ask why.

"How narrow is the gate and how constricted is the road that leads to life, and there aren't many people who find it!"
Matthew....

I wonder where Adolph Hitler is these days?
Did "Love" win him?

i hope love really does win.. because i'm seeing nothing but hate disguised as concern. what a monumental waste of time and energy bitching about a book that no one has even read... and i hope that this really is nothing more than a grand marketing ploy that has duped you all into a puerile tizzy. way to keep proving 'em right.

it amazes me how quickly and how upset people can be when we start challenging an obese census in hell. it's as if the hint of universalism has taken away the 'secret weapon' of evangelical theology, the Hell Card.

for a related post and discussion, see 'ambassadors of reconciliation.' http://tinyurl.com/4qxqzll

It's a great question to ask, though in my experience people can be too stuck in their already-formed-and-sitting-in-concrete ideas that they won't be open to hearing anything slightly different. Which is when it ceases to be a conversation, and it's also when things get ugly.

I also think people will prove their point to be more true if they do it with love, and they run the risk of contradicting their point if they get arrogant or judgmental about it.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I believe that on the last day, all evil is destroyed along with Satan as the final judgment. Then God, in SOVEREIGN GRACE, recreates ALL. I'm a 5 point Calvinist WITHIN TIME. However, what Calvinists MISS is that ALL MANKIND WAS IN ADAM IN CHRIST when Adam was created in perfection as a son of God. THEREFORE, ALL MANKIND is predestined to be born of the Holy Spirit through Christ.

Eternal torment is extremely poor theology -- in my view. So, I appreciate John Piper -- however, his eschatology is not the end of the discussion of biblical truth. (The words for time related to punishment are incorrectly translated -- but sound systematic theology reveals God's Sovereign counsel in His plan to destroy all sin and evil and flesh and all of the first creation on the last day -- then restore and recreate all anew through Christ. It may be a "paradigm shift" for Calvinists -- but I made it. Once a serious theological student sees that the words for TIME related to PUNISHMENT are NOT A LITERAL TRANSLATION -- but rather AN INTERPRETATION -- the game is OPEN to look to systematic theology to see the whole counsel of God -- and see destruction and recreation of all on the last day. It's a LEGITIMATE REFORMED POSITION, John Piper.

God bless.

How interesting! I have never read a book by Rob Bell and I had never planned on reading a book by him.

I will now.

So much for Piper's break to learn "humility".

You stay classy Nathan. New level of smugness from the "I hate Piper and love to rip him no matter what because he is Reformed" crowd.

I understand why many Christians disagree with universalism. I respect this position. But seriously, why does it make some traditional Christians so ANGRY that others today and throughout history think that God through Jesus will eventually by His irresistible grace woo all people to Himself? Why is this bad news?

"Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others... but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud."
C.S. Lewis

"Hell is what sin brings forth. Hell is the full-grown child. You have dandled your sin. You have kissed and fondled it. But see what sin comes to. Hell is but sin full-grown, that is all."
C.H. Spurgeon

Should I be more worried about Bell's alleged universalism or the many responses from readers who clearly side on universalism? Eternal punishment is a clear teaching in scripture. The doctrine in the end magnifies the grace of God.

To be sure this article raises other issues aside from universalism vs hell.

Namely; what is the right approach when a heresy (or serious biblical error) may be being propagated by a Christian teacher?

These are serious life and death issues, worthy of public attention.

@ Colleen "But seriously, why does it make some traditional Christians so ANGRY that others today and throughout history think that God through Jesus will eventually by His irresistible grace woo all people to Himself?Why is this bad news?"

It is not a case of it being bad news? It is a case of it being wrong news! Jesus spoke about the Hell more than anyone - why? Because he loves people and would have them to repent. The more I scroll through this discussion board I am personally freaked out how many side with universalism.

i am aghast at this flurry of censoriousness. I have never heard of Rob Bell, I don't know what he has written (and from the pieces sent neither does anyone else), but by the inane method of 140 letters per message (in which number of letters it is possible only to shout and not to argue a case for anything sound and logical) he is hanged, drawn and quartered. Trial by mob rule on Twitter is with us.
Give him the courtesy to actually get the book on the street, read it and assess it and respond with grace. it would be a great sign to others that we have a faith and set of values to stand for.
Oh, and 'censoriousness' is one of the seven deadly virtues.
John O

From the brief promo clip of Rob Bell's book, I take it to mean that he is being provocative and bringing up a lot of things that are thoughts & misperceptions of nonbelievers.I think his book will say that we love unbelievers into the Kingdom. It will say that God/Jesus love them into the kingdom He doesn't terrify people into the Kingdom.It's because of God's great love that He has this plan of salvation.Fear which is actually extreme respect for the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.I don't think Rob is going to say all roads lead to God.I think he'll say the 1 unpardonable sin is rejection of God. Sometimes man is so stubborn and prideful that reaching the bottom seems the only way to reach the top.I think God can win people to Himself through positive means and doesn't make or need calamity to draw them to Himself. I suggest we wait for Rob's book to come out before we condemn or praise it.

The idea that the anti-Christian forces behind the Wall Street melt-down-swindle will still laugh all the way to the bank in heaven is absurd if Yahweh is righteous ("How Wall Street Fleeced the World", Time Magazine Oct 18 2010 - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2024228,00.html ) - see the docu-movie "Inside Job". The idea that anyone can do anything with utter impunity is ridiculous and makes a mockery of Christian teaching. The idea that the destruction of a country like Iraq - causing by some counts a million deaths and millions of displaced people and the deaths of four thousand US military personnel and the permanent maiming of probably ten times that number for the sake of hidden oilistic-zionist-racist agendas concealed by the most blatant lies, creating immense hatred in the Muslim world and a new crop of "terrorists" - can all be achieved at no cost in the afterlife is utterly preposterous.

I'm horrified by what I have read here. Horrified by the vitriol ( why are you so afraid? Don't you know that fear separates us from God because it causes us to sin against both God and our neighbour- repent now!)

All words are symbolic and all require translation. By definition. I don't recognise the gospel at all in ythis outpouring of spite. God help us all. We are as far from the truth and therefore outside of eternal life as we ever were.

Eternal life is now and forever in Gods time. we cannot be in eternal life if we are hating our neighbour. Gods judgement is Gods judgement not ours. Stop stoning rob bell. Frankly I wouldn't blame anyone for turning away from Christ after hearing and seeing the vitriol in these posts. I do not recognise your response as being worthy of the label Christian. But then I guess the disciples themselves didn't get it did they. And they were with Him. Go read your bibles again. Read the story of the syrophonecian woman. Get down on your knees and ask for forgiveness. He will forgive. Then it's your job to allow the Spirit to work to effect change in you. For this will simply not do. Those who need to hear the Good News are not hearing it fromyou right now.

Dolly your post is nothing less than shameful and self righteous! How dare you! Yours is far more agressive and self righteous than any of the posts that are concerned about a distortion of the Gospel.
Herein lies the paradox - liberals always claim to be the most "loving" ones - but actually they are often the most vile and hateful of all "Christian" professors (or whatever else they call themselves).

Whilst I agree with the principle that judgement should be held off till Bell's book is released and read - nevertheless the severity of the issue means the public scrutiny is valid. Moreover I refuse to back down on my concern with the amount of posts that flat out deny (or lean towards denying) the existence of eternal judgement.

Greetings Adam. I am sorry if you interpreted my post as aggressive. It wasn't intended that way. Unfortunately its well documented that it is hard to judge intentions through email and text messages.

My post was intemded tp be about the distortion of the gospel. And I haven't said that I am liberal, nor have I said that I am more loving than anyone else.

However, the words 'vile and hateful' have no place falling out of the mouth of a Christian. We are all children of God. We may have fallen from grace, but Jesus, as far as we know never used those words about the sinners he came across. He did usesimilar expressions about the Pharisees however.

Public scrutiny is valid though we don't yet know what we are scrutinising to be fair.
And I haven't denied eternal judgement.
Not only that, though I do not belong to your sect of Christianity, I know myself that I am a sinner. I am sorry that you read it differently. I guess its all about intepretation of the word. Not surprising since all words are symbolic in their purest sense.

And when I talk about repenting I include myself in that. Totally and utterly.

I also know however, that the kinds of words and sentiments expressed here (taking them at face value) is exactly why most people I know will not have anything to do with Christianity or the church. The people I am talking about are good people who work to the spirit of the gospel but will not have anything to do with church and organised religion. THey do not recognise the tone of the conversations here as a truthful expression of the love of God in Chris Jesus. .Now if 'God is love and those who live in love live in God and he in them', then how does it work for those people to live by the spirit of the gospel - that is sacrificially, and for the other, to be alienated from God? That is a genuine question.

I don't normally read this website but chanced on it today and what I have read has frightened me. Not because I am afraid of eternal damnation but because I have been reminded that I should be very afraid of human beings. If people really are as uncompassionate as these post suggest then I fear for us all.

Liberals may have got it wrong (or not - only God knows that) but as far as I can see they are generally kinder to one another.

As for the rest of the debate - the apparent intolerance and the assumption that we have to do what is, by rights, God's task, frightens me. It is surely, God's business who He forgives...not ours. Why are we so worried. Surely, our task is to introduce people to the possiblity of forgiveness and the call of the gospel, and then let God, through the spirit work in them to do the rest. If the bible tells us anything it is surely that we should know our place...I am not one for sentimental mush...I personally believe that to follow Christ is the hardest thing we will ever be called to do...and that is why there is no place for human judgement dressed up as 'encouragement'

Speaking for myself, I know I am a sinner. I also trust that God will forgive me if I turn away from sin. over and over and over.. because, whilst I am alive in this life I will always have the capacity for sin. What i need is to be encouraged to love my brother and my sister as myself...(and that means I also need to have love for myself). And in order to do that, I need to love the Lord my God, with the whole of my being. Jesus himself said that on these two commandments hung all the law and the prophets. He was the supreme example of this. he showed us how to do it and in doing so brought us closer to God.

Count me as a former Christian who left specifically in order to get as far away from the monstrous doctrine of hell as I could.

Really, what I'm seeing a lot of here is "Eternal punishment is real! Here's a Bible verse to prove it!" with the undertones of "What manner of terrible heretic could possibly deny the notion that God causes/allows eternal punishment? Who would ask such a horrible question?" Really? Why do people question the necessity of eternal punishment? Seriously...who wouldn't?

Eternal punishment is abominable. When something only becomes bearable when it involves the stubborn, the lost, the wicked, the unrepentant...in other words, The Other...maybe that's a sign that something's wrong. Where in the Bible does God command us to separate the world into Us and Them, and to regard the loss of Them as perhaps regrettable, but really it's their own fault, so heaven forbid we question the very doctrine that drives so many away...

I am a universalist. I reject the doctrine of hell because it makes me sick inside. I reject the doctrine of hell because I was a smaller, meaner, less loving person when I believed in it. I feel that hell make a smaller, meaner, less loving person out of God. I reject the doctrine of hell for one simple reason: to me, it is not worth believing in. It is not worth defending.

I'd rather be a damned non-believer than to try and wrap my head around the necessity of hell.

I operate a program working with street gangs in Chicago and have a web site called Gang Life Chicago (ganglifechicago.com). In a recent post I pulished a note called "Playing the Trump Card." Its an appeal to gang members watching the site to understand that "love trumps all." While that phrase may sound remarkably similar to Rob Bell's book, it takes a somewhat different direction, from what I can tell. I am anxious to read that book, as are many of you. In the meantime, you might want to read the post I put up. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. I'm an archaeologist turned street worker and not a theologian, but I try to convey what God is teaching me in my posts. The actual post can be found at:

http://chicagogangs.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=840&action=edit&message=1

Let me know what you think.

Ron

I operate a program working with street gangs in Chicago and have a web site called Gang Life Chicago (ganglifechicago.com). In a recent post I pulished a note called "Playing the Trump Card." Its an appeal to gang members watching the site to understand that "love trumps all." While that phrase may sound remarkably similar to Rob Bell's book, it takes a somewhat different direction, from what I can tell. I am anxious to read that book, as are many of you. In the meantime, you might want to read the post I put up. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. I'm an archaeologist turned street worker and not a theologian, but I try to convey what God is teaching me in my posts. The actual post can be found at:

http://chicagogangs.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=840&action=edit&message=1

Let me know what you think.

Ron

Um -- everyone who is thundering about "traditional Christianity" needs to actually read what the ante-Nicene Fathers wrote about Hell, Christ's descent into Hell, and so on, and also what contemporary Catholic and Orthodox sources say about it -- not to mention what St. Paul atually said. True universalism -- that everyone must absolutely be saved -- is not really an option as a doctrine, but the hope that everyone will be saved, the faith that the Gospel is really good news for all humanity and not a parsimonious, horrid, narrow little thing just for us right-thinking modern evangelicals -- well, that is in fact "traditional" Christianity.

http://www.godandculture.com/blog/justin-taylor-on-rob-bell for those who may have missed this.

"if anyone comes to you preaching a different gospel, let him be accursed." It's pretty easy to judge whether someone is preaching a different gospel - get your bible out and actually LOOK UP what the teacher is saying." -JILL
in order for this passage to apply, the existance of a literal hell (which I fully affirm) would have to be part of the Gospel, itself, and not simply a part of Christian doctorine... we far too often expand the scope of the Gospel to include right beliefs and proper actions... the "Good News" is not "if you believe this..." or "if you act this way..." THE Good News is that God sent His one and only son that we (people... ALL PEOPLE) might have abundant life in Him (by belief in Him)... Many people who hear the Gospel do not know anything about the idea of a literal Christian Hell... for most, their own life circumstances are enough to need salvation from... if, after placing their faith in Christ, they come to understand the existance of a real place we call hell and that He has saved us from that, also, they will simply be all the more grateful

As an ex-Christian evangelical and now atheist I admit to a little schadenfreude here. Christianity is in its death throes and doesn't know it. Christianity, and espesially evangelical Christianity, loves to eat its young and that is what they will do with Ron Bell. Seriously, the only thing sillier than the belief in hell is to debate who is in and who is going to hell.

Thanks to the internet which brought this dust up to my attention. Makes me smile watching Christians discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Richard

The fact is, there are trillions who have come and gone on this planet who have never heard about Jesus. If these souls end up in hell, then God is negligent . Thankfully I believe in a much bigger God.

wow. jumping to conclusions much? i smell pharisees...on my own clothing i think. let's read the book first, and give everyone a fair shot-unlike what we did when Jesus was roaming about the planet-shall we humanity? what do you say we use the logic God graced us with instead of the egos He repeatedly asks us to deny? How's about we all put on the glasses of truth and love with Jesus' name on them (not our own) and read the words the author actually wrote and weigh them on the scale of the Gospel and then come to a balanced conclusion...let's do it for the sake of sanity why don't we?

how about for the sake of those still lost we just keep our eyes on Christ and not books written by imperfect human beings? i'm in, who else?

What two-three books on heaven and hell would you recommend?

I love the people on here who think that they can put God in the dock and sit in judgment of him. How silly to render verdicts on how God operates and call him a negligent asshole if you do not agree with him.

Or the crowd who say they want nothing to do with God if he sends people to Hell. The reality is you live in His Universe, and regardless if you want anything to do with him, you WILL have something to do with him.

Its as silly as someone in Florida saying they want nothing to do with hurricanes because they don't like them. It does not matter if you like them or not, what matters is responding properly to their very real existence. So mock God all you want, but I doubt you will when you stand before Him one day...

It is such a shame to see so many spitting fire. These comments are why Christians have a bad name. Do any of you really think that this is what Christ intended?

Most of you here have become Christians out of fear. Take your fear out of the equation and all you have is LOVE.

Open your mind, realize you do not know everything there is to know. Be open to the fact that all you have been taught could be false. Reverse it all. Rebuild your ideals, listen to your heart for truth. Just because something sounds good, just because something promises you something that sounds perfect in the end does not mean it is truth.

It is not your place to condemn. It is not your place to judge. Believe what you want to believe. Why is it so bothersome that another does not believe the same way as you?

Give more love than you take. Give more love than you take. Give more love than you take. Never harm anything that is defenseless. Laugh when you want to shout. Hug when you want to kill. Love when you want to hate. Overcome this burden of duality by taking it out of the equation. Between Black and White there is a fine line of grey. That is your path, do not veer too far or too long from it.

We must balance. We must balance the evil that surrounds us. You can not run away, the more positive you become the more tested you are. Ground yourself, expel your inner demons, forgive yourself so you can forgive all others. Love yourself so you can love all!

Our time is short, be the change you want. Focus often on peace. We will all experience what we focus on. In the blink of an eye the time will come upon you. Fear not, we are all here for a reason. We all have a part. Then we all go home.

You will either learn to love unconditionally or be doomed to repeat. This is your chance to change, time is short.

Another atheist here who was a Bible college grad, missionary and para-church worker for 46 years, before I "saw the light".

I agree with another poster: the concept of hell was what pushed me out of religious belief. A diety creates human beings, heaven and hell, and then says you're going to the bad place for infinite time, unless you believe, trust and worship me? Are there ANY parallels there to a human father-child relationship? NO, not one.

And of course, once hell was gone, the rest of the evangelical theological edifice came crashing down. No need to be saved. No more need to believe in a book riddled with thousands of contradictions and impossibilities, lies and forgeries, that I once was told was inerrant and infallible.

Maybe christianity will evolve to the point where it is no longer a reason for any human being to die or kill for, or to instill fear in another human. It is indeed possible to be good without God, as someone once wrote . . .

Wow. After reading all of the comments, I am reminded why I left the faith after 53 years. When you get it figured out let me know.

None of us will really know what Rob is going to say on the topic until we are able to read the book. But I imagine he wrote the book for non-Christians and really doesn't give a rip what we think about it -- we would not be his target audience if he is trying to introduce folks to Christ. If that's the case and the book contains the truth, and this marketing insanity causes non-Christians to read the gospel when they otherwise would not have...then I give him and his team credit for an amazing marketing gimmick. Then again, I could be wrong...will be interesting to find out.

Why does Rob Bell say the following in his video (Love wins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODUvw2McL8g)?

“The center of the Gospel of Jesus is that God is going to send you to hell unless you believe in Jesus, so what subtly gets caught and taught is that Jesus rescues you from God. But what kind of God is that that you need to be rescued from this God? How could that God ever be good and be trusted and how can that be good news?”

Anyone who believes in Jesus's message in John 14:6 would have to shudder. And this pretty much tells us that Bell believes that God the Father and Jesus the Son are two separate entities and not part of the Biblical Trinity.

This saddens me that some believe that God would send anyone to hell. Are there christians that believe that God forces anyone to do anything? He merely invites us to follow him.
We have a choice. I seek Him or not. tho seek him means a life change desire to continually find who he is. To desire to know him and his love for my soul. To understand his sovereignty and commitment to justice.

If i choose not to seek and follow him, not to concede his authority, then by default I am declaring myself god of my universe and that my own will be done. To do that is to follow the first being to ever sought to unseat God. That one being Satan.

Well that's who he made Hell for, Satan. So if you choose to have your own way, so be it. God in his infinite love has gone to the length of fulfilling the blood requirement of our sin. If I choose not to accept that then I have made my choice.

But it is only Him who decides who has accepted his love and who has not. It is not for any man to judge who is in hell and who is not.

I don't think this is pre-mature condemnation, but this book is only further fruit of Bell's conferences, videos and teachings. I've seen videos where Bell taught alongside Dalai Lama and other religous leaders in a spirit of ecumenicalism. To deny the exclusivity of the gospel and deny the reality of hell is to deny God's justice, and as Harris pointed out, this is not loving. Praying for heretical leaders is the best first approach, but there does come a time to finally excommunicate them. (Matt.18:6-7, 15-20)

So much fighting amongst yourselves _all_ the time. Don't you ever stop and say, "You know, if our beliefs require us to constantly fight over our beliefs, maybe we are getting it all wrong."? Jesus said that other people would know that you are "of him" by your love for each other. Even those of you who strive to stay above argument still argue in the depths of your heart about this point or that point. You may never voice it, but it's there.

By Jesus' own standard, then, the rest of us know without a doubt that you people are wrong in your beliefs, because your beliefs require you to constantly bicker over your beliefs. From the outside looking in, you all look like children fighting on the playground. It is exasperating to watch. When I was on the inside, all the theological debates/arguments that I was involved in felt like hell in my soul, and I wasn't able to understand why until God set me free from that sad, small little sandbox.

There is freedom, but you won't find it the way you are going about it.

Is it unloving to think that there is a right way to think and believe about eternal life? And is it important to think about it? Or should we just feel the love and not worry that our brother may end up in eternal separation from the God who will judge the righteous from the unrighteous? And WHO is our righteousness? Does it matter? Has liberal thinking led you to believe that whether a person is saved from their sin and its penalty in hell is no longer the issue; the main thing is how man treats his fellow man? Has it led you to believe that "Hell is not real. Man is not lost in sin and is not doomed to some future judgment without a relationship with Christ through faith. Man can help himself; no sacrificial death by Christ is necessary since a loving God would not send people to such a place as hell and since man is not born in sin. This contradicts Jesus Himself, who declared Himself to be the Way to God, through His atoning death (John 14:6)."

Seriously?

That video is what everyone is up in arms about? Seriously?

At no point does Bell say he doesn't believe in hell in that video. Actually all he really says is read the Bible rather than listen to other people.

This book appears to be "classic" Rob Bell. A guy who denies that the Church affirmed the Trinity its first thousand years is liable to say anything. Glad he's causing some reactions, but somehow I feel those reacting negatively - including me - to his upcoming release won't be gaining any "converts." The "bellites" out there are either theologically liberal or illiterate, enamored with the hip, rebellious image Bell offers. This whole debate is a sad commentary on our times. There is an growing apostate Church within Christianity whose growth is outpacing that of the genuine Church. The "remnant" will not be deceived by emergent charlatans like Bell, MacLaren, Jones, Miller, Peterson, Sweet, etc.

Referring to the book's title - "Love Wins" - I think Joshua Harris is spot on: "There's nothing loving about preaching a false gospel..." Surprisingly "seeker-friendly-becoming-contemplative-emergent-religious-unity" Rick Warren takes a stand for hell... for now. Stay tuned!

I was a member of Mars Hill Bible Church (the actual name of the church) for 10 years, so I have heard Rob Bell preach first-hand. I'm really, really bothered by the comments I've read by other Christian leaders, and Christians in general, because this book is not even out yet. So basically, our Christian leaders are Tweeting about another Christian Leader, not saying outright, but certainly hinting that Rob is a Hieretich [sp]. One problem I see running through the Body is gossip and slander. It comes in the form of "news" and "prayer requests" (something Rob Bell has referred to in one of his sermons), and this is also sin.
I also know from Rob's teaching style, that he tends to voice the questions that many people - even Christians, have thought, mulled, muttered, whispered in confidence to trusted friends. The video does not have Rob actually saying, "Everyone gets to go to Heaven!" but he is throwing out those questions, which opens up the lines of communication. Through communication, the real gospel may be shared. This gospel is, God the Father, sent God the Son, to rescue us from our inevitable fate of damnation as fallen people. People are afraid of God, and not in an awe-struck, reverent, or childlike way. God aloud the punishment to fall to Himself instead of us. So, in the meantime, before Rob's book comes out, let us be ready to give a reason (as the Bible teaches us to do), and when the book comes out - actually read the entire freakin thing before opening mouths to discuss in love. The Bible also tells us not to engage in foolish debates. We're stumbling along in this opportunity people, and it's going to be a mess if we don't pray and be quite.
Also, if Rob is guilty, then he is in sin, and Christian leaders need to go to him directly, not Tweet about Rob like a pack of middleschool girls.

By my count, Jesus only talked about "hell" five times, only one of those times (in Luke 16) does it sound anything like what we generally think of as hell. The other times he's talking about Gehenna, a literal trash heap outside of Jerusalem where child sacrifices used to be offered.

We've developed quite an idea of hell based more on Dante and Hollywood than the Bible. I'm hoping Bell gets us better connected with what Jesus taught about hell and away from our assumptions.

"Wow. After reading all of the comments, I am reminded why I left the faith after 53 years. When you get it figured out let me know."

Why would you leave your fate and your faith in the hands of fallible human beings rather than in the arms of your gracious Father?

"I agree with another poster: the concept of hell was what pushed me out of religious belief. A diety creates human beings, heaven and hell, and then says you're going to the bad place for infinite time, unless you believe, trust and worship me? Are there ANY parallels there to a human father-child relationship? NO, not one."

My friend, you read the entire bible front to back and did not read Luke 15. Good grief you are missing out.

Hell is the place you have chosen to go to when you leave the arms of the father. He doesn't send you there, you send you there. Hell is simply eternal separation from Him-that is all, and that is everything it is.

And He loves you SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much, and He is such a pleasant gentlemen, He would even give you that if you asked for it.

What is love if it is forced? Even a son can't be forced to love his father except for it be false love. If there were no hell, there would only be one option...a forced life with God. How is that love at all?

If you love your son, set him free at his will. (child/son-father relationship.) If he wants to, if he loves his father and wants a life with him, he'll come back. But only if he wants to. The life of a child's is his to choose. That's a good daddy right there.

I believe that HELL is to stand before GOD in judgment, God NOT as Father, but God as the Avenging God of those who reject His sacrifice of His Son, Christ Jesus, for the forgiveness of our trespasses. What is the nature of that judgmentl, we really do not know! I believe that the "lake of fire" is symbolic of suffering . . . from being separated from the presence of God as Father.

Thus, the command of Christ Jesus to us to “love your neighbor as yourself” demands that, through appeal to reasons that leads to faith, we must continue to reach out to non-hristians to bring the truth of the One God’s revelation of Himself in the Trinity if they, like us, were to stand on judgment day before a “God Who is a Father” to us and not one “Who is an Avenging God of Wrath” to those who reject the blood shed, the suffering, and the eventual death of His Only Begotten Son, Christ Jesus, on the cross which is the only Sin Offering acceptable to God the Father, hence to the One Infinite God (Ro 3:22-26).

http://www.layadvocacyforchristianunity.org

I'm not going to read that trash! I will just keep preaching the truth of the Gospel. When I am confronted by Rob Bell disciples, I will just correct them with the Bible. Sinners will burn in Hell if they don't turn from sin, and trust Jesus. Here is a good video on Hell, that I just happened to make recently. Perfect timing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zvIdqalBJo

Enjoy!

I am almost in tears reading these replies. The amount of Christians who deny the reality of hell is astounding.
Then the amount of people who openly admit they walked out on the church supposedly because of 'infighting in the church' is even more depressing to my morning.

There are a couple of things I think should be said. I will comment on my understanding about what scripture teaches about Hell and a few reflections on the 'Bell/ Taylor saga - which is a slightly separate issue (but not entirely). For me just by all the superficial replies I am reading, leads me to speak about the doctrinal issue at stake.

Someone says above - the reason many are Christians is out of 'fear' - presumably on the basis of their belief in 'hell'.
That may be true for some Christians, but it is not true of the vast majority of Christians. Gospel centrality proclaims Christ as the source of life and forgiveness. On the whole Christians ought to focus on life that is found in Christ, rather than focussing on wrath. The message should be orientated around grace. Sometimes 'old school' fundamentalism has had a tendency to use the 'fire and brimstone' approach - effectively guilt tripping people - but by and large that is not evangelical Christianity.
Nevertheless, the fact that hell is in scripture means it is not something to ignore blindly. Jesus is clear about the devastating result of not responding to Himself. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

Someone also said a lot of the notions Christians have about 'hell' is more informed by Hollywood than it is scripture. There is a lot of truth in that statement. The descriptions of 'fire, darkness, worms' are all metaphors. They are intended to impress the mind, no doubt - but not intended to be taken ultra- literally. In a sense it is unhelpful to see Hell as a localised place. Yet at the end of the day the non-literal metaphors are still affirming the reality of everlasting conscious punishment.

At one level I understand why people would deny eternal punishment. It is a hard truth, but wrongly associating God as 'austere and tempered'. That could not be further from the truth. No the issue is God is altogether Holy (distinct, other, separate and pure) (Is 6:3).

Alongside confusing God's holiness for ill-tempered (like a pagan god) - is a weak view of sin. Clearly we do not understand how bad sin is - nor can we perceive our own sinfulness. This is why so many people so easily deny hell.

In the end by attempting to make God 'nicer' (an idol) what we do is nullify the magnitude of God's grace and love!

Now about the 'you guys are all fighting' - this is being used to undermine the church by some who say they gave up their faith or walked out on the 'institutional church'. And others are saying they can understand why some would leave the church when they watch this kind of fighting. I find this line of argument a good excuse above anything.

To be sure, sometimes (ok often) we do fight over trivial things. As for myself - like the sentiments of many here - I long for unity in the church myself. However this is a serious, life and death issue. You can find many passages in Paul where he calls for unity (Phil 2:1-2, 1 Cor 1:10, 2 Cor 13:10-12) - but likewise he says there are ocasions you need to stand for Truth (Gal 1:8-9 - incidentally a book all about the need for faith in Christ). I will thus not take this issue lightly. This is a life and death issue.

Now about the Bell/ Taylor Saga.

This issue centres more around what is the right way to go about addressing things stated by a Christian teacher/author which appears to be heretical or at least a serious error.

Clark's critique of Taylor raised some legitmate points - but in my view he went too far. I think he overlooked the context somehwhat.

I have read two blogs (they are linked below) which come at this from different angles. And I find myself agreeing with both sides. Was Justin perfect in his behavior? Was he in any way at fault how he dealt with the issue. I am not going to bother going there - I do not presume he did everything perfectly.

There is an issue in todays social networking - that means responses to Christian material can happen too quickely, almost instantly. As Christians we have a responsibility to be truthful. We can be dishonest ignorantly, which means it deceit sometimes is not a deliberate flat out lie. This can happen when we are too quick to speak before establishing the facts. With a view to loving our brothers and sisters in Christ - we have a responsibilty also not to wrongly defame a person. Evidently some people feel that has been the case for Bell.

I think as Christians we need to be aware the effect twitter/ blogs/ and facebook has had on the church is a revoloutionary change. This means we can get into premature debates and be too quick to label someone a heretic.
We also need to be aware, this form of social mediums can make for lazy debates.

On the other hand - I think some of the criticism of taylor has been over the top (not saying he was perfect).

It seems so many are saying "let's wait till the book comes out before we judge". Now in principle I agree with this - but Bell is no less a teacher we he speaks publically (in this case promoting his book) as he is when his books are being read. This means he can lead people further into the Truth or away from it by videos such as these. He made statements that have raised alarm bells(not a joke). Perhaps he has not said enough to be labelled heretic (which Justin never explicitly stated) - but he has said enough - that is right Christian leaders would raise this issue publically.
Moreover this is not the first time Bell has raised controversy.

And if Bell is simply just 'marketing his book by being controversial', in other words deliberately wording himself to make it ambiguous what he stands for (as some are saying)- then one has to question his integrity. In any case if this is his plan - then he deserves to be scruitinised over his beliefs. You might say, 'you are playing into his hands' - he wants a storm - so books are purchased, true - but these a life and death issues, and if he purposely wants to create controversy (I am not assuming this is his motives by the way, but on the premise it is, as some say) - then let Christian leaderss call him to account.

Moroever one of the problematic issues with 'wait till the book comes out' (again I laregly agree in principle) - is not everyone is a theologion. Everyone who says suspend your judgement till the book is read - obviously fancy themselves as a theologion above deception. Well not every Christian is strong enough nor equipped enough to be able to decern critically an enagaging writer. Hence Christian leaders should alert the public - and demand Bell publically present his position before the book is on shelf!

The issue of Matt 18 - does not apply - becaus this is a public doctrinal issue. It is a Gospel issue. That said - a desire to establish the facts should motivate every Christian leader.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/

http://donteatthefruit.com/2011/02/love-wins-and-truth-prevails-but-speed-kills-%E2%80%98em-both/

There are basically two lines of debate on this blog -
Namely 1) Bell/ Taylor saga
2) Universalim vs eternal punishment

I have argued both issues - the latter I felt compelled as I read through the vast many who accept or veer towards that view.

I cant believe this is an argument. Sometimes one has to stand up be counted even when it seems confrontational. Regardless of what Rob Bell's book says, the clip he put out is enough to say that it is wrong. John 14:6 declares the exclusivity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I haven't read the book and know very little about Mr. Bell, but I do know The Fathers said that being in the presence of the completely transcendent and all powerful Love of God for eternity would most likely feel like fire to anyone who was set against it. They argue if God fills all things and holds all things together how can He put anyone anywhere that He doesn't exist. God is omnipresent and God is Love, God is also completely beyond, and His Love doesn't make sense in the way we tend to think...but this ancient description of Hell as an actual place sure makes more sense to me then what I grew up thinking, which was this vision of God as an angry judge forced to practically hate his own children and throw them into a dungeon of flames because his own justice put him between a rock and a hard place and forced him to do so. That is not The Fathers teaching. But to be clear, The Fathers would never take the position that those fires of Love would eventually win over every soul to their creator (universalism) because that would mean we would have no choice but to accept God's Love in the end, which would mean we really had no free will or choice in the first place, which, then, of course, wouldn't be Love at all. They did however make it clear that on the other hand a man's heart could choose to surrender and be transformed by the very fire that was tormenting him after being exposed to it for who knows how long, though he also might not. So they wouldn't unequivocally say all will be saved, but they also wouldn't unequivocally say that all couldn't be saved. There is great Freedom in God's Love, in The One Who Is Beyond and Near. And there is always Hope. But the Fathers tried to always reveal that Love and Freedom with great Hope while steering clear of heresy and assumption which could lead to its abuse. This is an old debate, it's just been given a flashy new facelift. If people would just get their head out of the last few hundred years and realize that there are loads of great books and writings to feast on that existed long before Luther and Calvin became the poster boys of Christianity, then we might actually have some educated Christians who could Love God and others living a gospel that can been seen as good news and doesnt confuse the hell out of people. =)

HELL is sitting here imagining heaven's balcony, watching my parents, friends, brothers, sisters, cousins, etc being ETERNALLY (consciously & infinitely) tormented in HELL. This is just for sins they commiitted in a very short space of time. THINKING ABOUT THIS HELL FOR ME!

In the end love wins? Maybe in the beginning Love Waits - and reads the book first.

Yes and during the time of 'waiting' - maybe Christians will read their bibles, perhaps even objectively - instead of allowing themselves to be shaped by their own biased desires and the world's values and mores.

I'm beginning to wonder if some Christians are starting to become like hippies -- it's all about peace, love, and happiness, man.

I will reserve any judgment until i read the book.

Seems to me people who are dogmatic about hell need a bit of humility. A good reformed Bible teacher (ha ha) once taught me that in the Bible, references to eternal judgment and hell were primarily reserved for Jesus. And in the case of Revelation, it was basically Jesus dictating to John what the future was. Net, any discussion on hell, you need to tread lightly and acknowledge that you are not Jesus and cannot speak authoritatively on it. This is his domain We need to follow what he has taught us.

Getting to the actual Bible (which is what we should do)... it seems to me the only direct reference to eternal damnation in Revelation 20 refers directly to Satan, his angels, and the Anti-Christ. The Bible is not specific regarding whether the dead or those not in the book of life will get eternal damnation. In fact, I read it more like there is a second death (meaning annihilation) rather than eternal suffering for everyone else.

None of these really fit the universalist, eternal hell binary, simplistic judgments that seem to be debated. Net, God is God, he will judge the living and the dead and he reserves the right to annihilate the dead and make Satan eternally suffer. This seems to me a direct hit against universalism but also reflective of a compassionate, just God who has a deep respect for his creation, even if they rejected him.

The video by Bell and Harper Collins' description of his book raise worrisome questions. Bell's character will be shown by whether or not he comes out quickly to clarify his stance or waits almost a month until the publication of the book to create more buzz and increase sales.

We are not called to toy with the gospel for marketing purposes, Bell owes immediate clarity and an unambiguous presentation of his views to the Church even if that will "damage" sales of his book.

I hope the report that the publisher Harper Collins told him not to comment until the publication of the book is not true,

...he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth... He said in a loud voice "Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come- Worship Him...Rev 14
No one comes to me unless the Father draws him. John 6
Maybe we forget that we were created "for His pleasure". Relationship with God thru His Son is the highest privilege and honor, not an obligation from God. Who are we that we should talk back to God? Everyone who does not believe (biblical trust and abiding) already stands condemned. If we were busy with the fear God and worship part, then the fruit we so long for would be evident.

I have listened to Rob Bell's book promotional video a couple of times. What I hear is Bell basically posing questions. No doubt this line of questions threatens us evangelicals and our passion for truth. I am one who can wait to hear how he answers these questions. In glancing through the comments made here as well as on Justin Taylor's blog a question comes to me: are you valiant for the truth or are you valiant about being right?

That is a question about our hearts. Our words can be revealing. I commend a message preached by Tim Keller (redeemer.com) from a series titled: The Real Signs of the Spirit: Integrity. We need to listen to this word with a broken heart, a teachable soft heart to God. If you go there, make sure you listen to the second half of the message--on truth and love.

#1 I believe in God. Who made all this to begin with and in His eternal love for all! From the first man Adam on! John 3:16 says For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Eternal life is God's gift to the believers in His Son Jesus. History is repleat with doubters of who God is if He is. And with doubters of eternal judgement. An eternity in a lake of fire is not pleasant to contemplate. Jesus came to save us through a personal belief in Him. He believed in heaven and He believed in hell and whatever a person believes about eternal judgement it is above all else a place of separation, darkness, pain and torment and regret. Believers in Jesus Christ will above all else be with Him. Jesus believed in eternal judgement for those who reject God and His gift of salvation in Jesus and Jesus called it a fiery hell. Matthew 5:22. God will judge. He will decide. I will be wherever Jesus is.

It's just as much a heresy to say that people are going to hell every day, as it is to say that everyone will go to heaven one day. What is hell anyway? Does anyone really know? Is it the grave? Is it a place where garbage is burned? Is it a place for demons? Why do most Christians believe that everyone lives for ever and goes to one place or another-heaven or hell?

One of the questions that some of us Evangelicals fail to ask is: Will there be sins forgiven in the next age...even sins against the Son of Man? In other words, does the power of the cross extend beyond death and into the Millennium? None of us deserves to have one, let alone the numerous sins we have committed forgiven. Why should we be shocked that God might the forgive sins of others who perhaps have sinned far less than us, and with less knowledge than we have enjoyed?

I for one believe love will win, Christ will win; He will subdue the nations ruling with a rod of iron until all is subject to Him. I believe we often underestimate the power and scope of the cross of Jesus Christ, to save and heal the nations that we seem to dismiss so readily.

Yes, sinners will be judged. Everything will come out in the open that has not been confessed and brought to the light. But only those who have sinned against the Holy Spirit will be without forgiveness. The wicked he will destroy in the lake of fire...which is the second death.

The best information I have found on this questions about hell is http://www.helltruth.com/ They have a Bible based explanation for the whole thing.

There is an evolution of Christian thought coming forward now, although it emerged post WW2 -- particularly with Tillich's idea of "New Being" and others.

But right now we also have things that are pointing to the fact that clergy are really wanting to contend with dogma, such as the Tufts study on non-believing preachers. [ www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP08122150.pdf for the study.] Statistics on unchurched and never churched folks (spiritual but not religious) also indicate a laity more than welcome to this as well.

There is a distinct process of Christianity that is not "Universalist" but rather a far more emergent strain of mainstream "in the world" pragmatic, mysticism (in the immanent rather than Catholic sense). Rob Bell is just tapping the edge of this wave.

I think more preachers would do this if they had some cover under which to open such discussion.

Found a clip of the first bit of the book. Much better than the Promo video Snippit they released. This shows that the video released by the publisher was intentionally edited to create a controversy. Well, Mission Accomplished.

People really need to calm down.

http://library.booksontape.com/audio/4s_9780307940568.mp3

I beleive that Rob Bell is talking about creating a spiritual mass of conciousness, to overcome hate and fear...
Hate is too much a burden to bear, indeed love always wins

In reading the comments which rake Rob Bell over the coal, I find it interesting that:

- a person who is not Rob Bell began this mess by Tweeting and Blogging (aka gossip)
- a person who is not Rob Bell wrote his article on a book that has not been released, and he has only read sections, and also has only viewed a 3-5 minute video of Rob Bell talking (not the the writer of the Blog/Tweet)
- a person who is not Rob Bell is speaking about Rob Bell's spiritual perspective, but has not interviewed/consulted/asked Rob Bell about his spiritual beliefs.
- a person who is not Rob Bell is speaking about Rob Bell, and others are commenting on what this person is saying/writing. These additional people also have not consulted/interviewed/asked Rob Bell about his spritual beliefs, nor have the read the new book, which has not been released.
- individuals from the Christian leadership community are setting the example of behavior for other Christians, and are also very visible to the world, who is deriving who/what Christians are [like] by their behavior.
- individuals who have responded to this article, as I have, are writing things to Rob Bell in this format, instead of contacting Rob Bell directly

Rob's sermons given Sundays are memorable, because he does use props. One prop was a restaurant check. Rob used it to make the point that we humans are unable to pay this check - we'll never have enough, but Jesus Christ has paid our debt through his death/resurrection, and we have to accept this gift from him.

I can only imagine what things are being said by brothers/sisters in Christ to Rob, his wife, and their three young children, all because some guy felt the need to Tweet/Blog his opinion on information he doesn't even posess.

The best info I have found on this questions about hell is http://www.helltruth.com/ They have a Bible based explanation for the whole thing.

Hell is real; universalism is false; Rob Bell is a heretic with or without this new book; outside the Church there is no salvation; Protestants are not "Christians;" and some of you folks should really read "A Letter from Beyond."

http://www.tldm.org/news6/hell2.htm

Matt Beck: So what you're saying is you know people's hearts, which only God has that ability, so are you claiming to be HIM?

Also, you are labeling Rob Bell on gossip and slander.

A letter from beyond - never heard of it, and wouldn't read it, as it isn't the Bible.

" a person who is not Rob Bell began this mess by Tweeting and Blogging (aka gossip)"

Actually, he was commenting on public material that you or I could access, watch, read, and comment on. That is not gossip. Please look up the correct definition of gossip, EveryDayK.

Rob Bell is not merely asking questions. Rob Bell KNOW how to communicate. He intentionally uses those questions to communicate something. And what does he communicate? A skewed and dishonouring view of who God truly is.

All the hatred and bitterness that has been riled up over this is terrible for those who call themselves followers of Christ. Bad doctrine is hurtful and misleading, but do we really have to bash each other about it? I do not agree with Rob Bell in the least but do we have to bash our brothers and sisters about this issue? Pray for Rob Bell and those who have expressed such bitterness towards each other and the Gospel and Christianity in general!

If there is such a ‘place/state’ as eternal torment in hell, than poor, insane Andrea Yates had it exactly right and all the rest are just B team player wanna be’s.

If eternal torment in hell is real, we need only one page in the Bible and it says TURN OR BURN. I mean, why complicate things? (gee, thanks God!)

When did "if you eat you shall surely die" morph into "you shall surely burn forever and ever in the torments of an eternal hell"?

As far as universal reconciliation being an unBiblical, heretical, minority opinion goes ... http://www.amazon.com/Universalism-Prevailing-Doctrine-Christian-Hundred/dp/1165797968

I think what is fundamentally at issue here is the concept of free will. Personally, my will didn’t have a shred of freedom until after God had boxed me in a corner and “made me” choose Him. Self-will, yes, but free? Not in the slightest.

Why do humans demand they have a free will? Aren’t there more than enough scriptures that prove God is the one in ultimate control of everything, even the hearts of the kings? Why not just accept that and go for the ride?

Oh, perhaps because of the hell issue? How can one relax and enjoy the ride if one believes there is such a thing as eternal torment in hell? Most would *have* to come up with elaborate “free-will, choice” scenarios in light of that.

All I've seen the belief in a free will do in the evangelical community, is give them the "right" to manipulate and pressure folks into "choosing" Jesus.

The real issue is, what happens at THE END? The scriptures on my website GreatestStoryTold.com bear out that GOD WINS in the end through Christ Jesus. If there is a ‘hell’, it can not be ‘eternal’. End of story. My own journey into hell is linked there as well.

This Rob Bell DON'T LISTEN TO HIM! HE will bring confusion.. I dont think he beleives that Jesus is the only way to Heaven and He Jesus Is.. "Jesus Said I am the way the truth and the life no one come to the Father but my me"
WARNING stay away from this guy......

MacKenzie - gosh, I feel some hate and judgement coming at my from your direction.

Again, all of these statements by people who haven't read the book (that isn't available to read), haven't listened to Rob Bell preach, and have not asked Rob Bell himself. All this gossip wrapped up nice and neat in the form of a prayer request, and this based on your assumptions developed by a blogger who tweets.

The entire emergent movement is circling the drain.

Paying any attention to this book merely slows the descent.

Is Evangelical Christianity this narrow and intellectually insipid that people cannot accept that God will judge people as individuals and on more than the narrow criteria of "did you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior"? I love Eastern Orthodox Christianity for this: "We know where the grace of God is; we don't know where it isn't." How could Evangelicals be so arrogant as to assume that they know exactly how the Alpha and Omega God of the universe will judge each individual person? Because they have no tradition. Everyone in Evangelicalism is interpreting the Scriptures according to his wisdom and that is why there is the doctrinal chaos.

These comments--and this silly name calling (Heretic--really, are we preparing the stake for the ritual burning?) illustrate better than Rob Bell ever could why evangelicals are irrelevant in the larger context of American culture--and even less important to the world at large. A man writes a book, asking serious questions that have been asked for millennia and before the entirety of the book can even be digested he is cast out from the fold. Wow--just reaffrims my decision many years ago to leave evangelicalism and to pursue a healthier worldview. One more thing--since when does John Piper get to decide who is a Christian and who isn't? Thought that was, even in evangelicalism, God's prerogative?

When readers open the new third edition of The Fire That Consumes, set for release this Summer, there waiting to greet them in the Foreword will be Professor Richard Bauckham of Cambridge, England, one of the world's most highly-regarded biblical scholars. In his Foreword, Professor Bauckham warmly commends The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment for dealing "so fully and thoroughly with all the relevant texts. "In Bauckham's opinion, "a major strength" of The Fire That Consumes is the way it "takes full account of the Old Testament and the continuity in concepts and images of divine judgment between the two testaments."

A thorough revision of the 1982 first edition, the third edition of The Fire That Consumes reaches the same conclusions, but in sleeker and more finished form, including its lively conversation with seventeen traditionalist authors who have published books since 1982. The new edition will be released by Cascade Books, a division of Wipf and Stock reserved for books that "combine academic rigor with broad appeal and readability." The Fire That Consumes is scheduled for release in time for the June 2011 Christian Scholars Conference at Pepperdine University, and is also in line for release by Kindle.

Rob is RIGHT and WRONG - when he says "God does not torture forever sinners in hell" he is RIGHT. If he assumes there is no hell and believes in some sort of universalism, he is WRONG. The Bible clearly teaches that there is a "hell" - a final destination for the wicked. Revelation calls it the "lake of fire." [Rev 20] What many Christians wrongly hold is that the Lake of Fire lasts eternally instead of for the age. Muany Christians have accepted Greek dualism and force their Scriptures to fit their misguided worldview. The greek word "aeon" should be translated in many cases to mean "age". The context is critical. Hell consumes the wicked, they are no more. They are "ashes" under our feet, so to speak. God does not torture forever nor does he need hell. Humbly search again the texts of Scritpure comparing all passages.

Of course none of us have truly heard Rob Bell out yet, but the title is as biblical as it gets. Love Wins--it wins out over fear; it wins us in the end over our own desires; it wins others to our witness about the God Who is Love.

Fear is a short term motivator. It will never bring about the great fruits of Christian maturity. God may use it to get our attention, but He never ends there. Love is the ultimate motivator. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment."--I John 4:18.

The unbiblical doctrine of an eternally burning hell makes God out to be worse than Polpot, Hitler, Stalin, etc. It turns the gospel into a superficial quick fix to get me out of hell. Out of hell and into what? Well meaning individuals have asked me "Are you saved?" I've responded with a sincere question "Saved from what?" Ultimately, they mean, Are you saved from God's wrath in an eternally burning hell and do you have assurance that you will be in heaven for eternity?

But isn't the gospel message so much bigger than this? Certainly it encompasses this, but the greater question is Have I been so transformed by God's love that the society of heaven and holy beings is desirable to me and sin holds no more attraction? This can only come about through love, not through fear. And it isn't accomplished the moment I've prayed the sinner's prayer.

Yes, we can have assurance of eternal salvation right now. But this is an assurance of a relationship with God. Jesus prayed in John 17:3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." The apostle John wrote, "He that hath the Son, hath life; and he that hath not the Son hath not life." 1 John 5:12.

How can this be universalism?

Leave Rob Bell alone! So he believes that all humanity has been redeemed by "the Savior of the world." I can understand that someone might be faulted for not having enough faith, but it doesn't make sense to fault Rob Bell for having too much faith. By the way, read Romans 5:6-11

i think first we should define clearly the christianity

What is christianity

My questions:
In all sincerity, it is my understanding that God exists outside of time and that after death we enter into Eternity where time ceases to exist. If time ceases to exist, then how could it be that one enters into eternity (where there is no time) not knowing Christ and then would suffer in hell for a specific amount of "time" that God deems necessary and then cease to exist? If heaven is eternal life and fellowship with our Creator, then hell must be eternal separation and dis-fellowship from God. Also, in the case of universalism, if hell or eternal separation does not exist,and all humanity will eventually be saved, what do we need to be saved from? Why is there a need for salvation? Why would we need to share the good news of salvation if it is not necessary to our eternal destiny?

Whether Mr. Bell or his publishers are being purposefully vague or are acurately representing Mr. Bell's conclusions in this book remain to be seen. But having read some of Rob's earlier work, neither possibility would be surprising.

There are those who say it is unreasonable for people to 'jump to conclusions' about what Rob might be suggesting in his book, but I would argue that that should not be the point at all. The bottom line is that it should not be the role of a teacher of God's Word and a shepherd of His people to continuously add more ambiguity and less clarity to Biblical teaching. The mere fact that Rob is so comfortable asking provocative questions without providing remotely concrete conclusions would suggest that he is no man to be 'followed'. Jesus never used paraboles or provocative statements to bing less clarity to God's will. He always did it to narrow the focus back towards God's perspective.

Any man can speculate and do so provocatively. That is by no means what we are told to expect in our pastors, elders, teachers, or prophets. Shepherds do not ask their sheep where the grass may be green then walk away. No matter what Rob says in his book, his history and his methods have already side-lined him as a respectable source.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:5)
There is a doctrinal chaos, and this is making some Christians confused, including me.

I have noticed two responses to the possibility that Rob Bell might be a universalist. They are as follows:
1) If Christ's sacrifice assures the salvation of all humanity, then
why bother to preach the gospel to those who haven't heard?
ANSWER: If literally thousands (millions?) are destined to die of
starvation each year, then why bother to feed the hungry
masses of men, women and children? Also, we should preach
the gospel because Christ commanded us to do so.

2). Didn't Jesus say, "No one comes to the Father except through me"?
ANSWER: Yes, he did. And his statement is true whether one
believes in universal salvation, or not.

Eugene Peterson, Author and man behind "the message" says ROB BELL NOT A UNIVERSALIST in radio interview on monday at 4:35pm eastern time. listen to a podcast from Monday 3-7-2011 here http://www.faithtalk1500.com/podcasts/podcasting_localhost.aspx?localhost=9

"There is literally nothing more ghastly and grim than the biblical language used to describe hell. It is described as “darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12); as a “fiery furnace” (Matt. 13:42); and as a “lake of burning sulfur” (Rev. 20:10). Its torment is said to be continuous (2 Thess. 1:9), unquenchable (Matt. 3:12), and eternal (Jude 7).

Although many words describing hell are symbolic, they signify an even more suffocating reality. As Dr. R. C. Sproul explains, we find no relief in them: “A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, ‘Hell is a symbol for separation from God.’ To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in Hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In Hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath" (R. C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House, 1992), 286).

Sproul goes on to say that the most horrifying aspect of hell is its eternality. The most excruciating pain can be endured, if we know that it will end. In hell, no such hope exists. In the words of Dante, “Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" (Dante Alighieri, Inferno, Canto III: 7).

The horrors of hell are such that they cause us to recoil instinctively in disbelief and doubt. Nevertheless, there are compelling reasons that should erase such doubt from our minds. The first and foremost of such reasons is that Christ, the Creator of the cosmos, clearly communicated hell’s irrevocable reality. “Do not be amazed at this,” He said, “for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:28–29).

Christ. As has often been accurately noted, Christ spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven. In the Sermon on the Mount alone, He explicitly warned His followers about the dangers of hell a half dozen or more times.

Furthermore, in the Olivet Discourse, Christ repeatedly warned His followers of the judgment to come:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left….Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”…Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matt. 25:31-33, 41, 46).

Lastly, in His famous story of the rich man and Lazarus, Christ portrayed the finality of eternal torment in hell:

In hell, where [the rich man] was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, “Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.” But Abraham replied, “Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us” (Luke 16:23–26).

The concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell there is no choice. Moreover, without choice, heaven would not be heaven but rather hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their will, which would be a torture worse than hell. As Dr. Norman Geisler explains, the alternative to hell “would rob human beings of freedom and dignity by forcing them into heaven against their free choice. That would be ‘hell’ since they do not fit in a place where everything is loving and praising the Person they want most to avoid" (6. Norman L. Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), 313.)

We should note that without eternal separation for the wicked, the very nature of heaven is polluted. “Evil is contagious (1 Cor. 5:6) and must be quarantined. Like a deadly plague, if it is not contained it will continue to contaminate and corrupt. If God did not eventually separate the tares from the wheat, the tares would choke out the wheat. The only way to preserve an eternal place of good is to eternally separate all evil from it. The only way to have an eternal heaven is to have an eternal hell" (Gary R. Habermas and J. P. Moreland, Beyond Death: Exploring the Evidence for Immortality (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 1998), 296).

It is also crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell is equal. We may safely conclude that the torment of Hitler’s hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns His grace will suffer exactly what he or she deserves (Luke 12:47-48; Rev. 20:12-13). Those who reject the gospel will be judged more severely than those who never heard it (see Matt. 11:20–24).

CommLike choice, common sense dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler’s Holocaust will never be righted. Justice will be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. Common sense told the Psalmist Asaph that for a time it may seem as though the wicked prosper despite their deeds, but in the end justice will be served (Ps. 73). Furthermore, common sense dictates that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily rub out the crowning jewels of His creation. As noted by Drs. J. P. Moreland and Gary Habermas, “It would be wrong to destroy something of such value just because it has chosen a life it was not intended to live. Thus, one way God can respect persons is to sustain them in existence and not annihilate them.” Finally, and most importantly, common sense dictates that without a hell there is no need for a Savior. Little needs to be said about the absurdity of suggesting that the Creator should suffer more than the cumulative sufferings of all humanity if there were no hell to save us from. As much as we may wish to think that everyone will be saved, common sense precludes that possibility. C. S. Lewis put it well, “I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, ‘All will be saved.’ But my reason retorts, ‘without their will, or with it?’ If I say ‘Without their will’ I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be in-voluntary? If I say ‘With their will,’ my reason replies ‘How if they will not give in?’” Ultimately, “there are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done’” (C.S.Lewis "The Problem of Pain" and "The Great Divorce").
(From "Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter Here"
http://www.equip.org/articles/abandon-hope-all-ye-who-enter-here)

I would like to post what Tentmaker Ministries, a ministry that holds forth the truth that ALL shall be saved. Tentmaker has written in regards to Rob Bell's book the following:

"LOVE WINS VERSUS LOVE LOSES (Rob Bell Versus Evangelicalism)
Love, religion2 Responses »
Mar
07
2011
By Gary Amirault

Rob Bell, pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church, producer of the well-received Nooma video series, leader of the Emerging Church movement and author of several popular books has contracted with HarperOne, a Newscorp publishing company to publish Rob Bell’s latest book, Love Wins: Heaven, Hell and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. The book’s release is schedule for March 29, 2011 but the publicity machinery is already in full gear. Not only is the Evangelical community already astir, but the secular press like New York Times, Huffington Post, and many other news outlets are stirring the waters of contention over this book. At stake is the very existence of Hell! Or so it seems.

At Tentmaker Ministries, the existence of Hell has always been a non-issue. The Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox view of Hell is myth that should have disappeared long ago and we welcome the day when more men and women come out of their theological closets and get real or should I sad “get honest!” with the people. There are thousands  upon thousands of pastors, seminary professors, Christian publishers who no longer believe in the traditional Christian Hell but have been too cowardly to come out and say so. Had they done so it probably would have cost them their positions, their titles, their reputations, but more importantly their income.

Carlton Pearson, several years back, abandoned the traditional teaching of Hell. He even had the courage to declare so publicly. It cost Pearson his church of several thousand, his position on the board of directors at Oral Roberts University, record contracts and his reputation as one of the leading voices in the American church. Pastors who once shared platforms together with Carlton turned their backs on him.

There is a cost for walking away from playing the fear card almost which every denomination of Christianity has played for centuries. And I’m sure Rob Bell has given this decision to write this book much consideration. Whether Rob Bells overcomes the persecution that is already building up and maintains his popularity or not, he’s a winner. There is a cloud of witnesses of those who have gone before him “despising the shame” that comes with declaring Jesus Christ Victor over all. Paul, the apostle to the nations wrote, “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor AND SUFFER REPROACH because we trust in the living God who is savior of all mankind especially those who believe. These things command and teach.” 1 Timothy 4:9-11

Who would have ever thought that “despising the shame” could refer to being rejected by Church because one gives full glory to God the Father and His Son? Who would have ever thought that teaching the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ would bring persecution at the hands of your brothers and sisters in Christ? Who would have ever thought the Church would ever kill its own and call those “heretics” who teach “Jesus Christ, Savior of the world? John 4:42, 1 John 4:14

Ring the bell of freedom Rob Bell. Be willing to pay the price to preach the truly Good News to all people. It may cost your dearly. But this message of universal salvation is a liberating message that I have seen heal thousands who have been tormented by the traditional bad news gospel that says God failed for most of mankind. The Calvinist and Arminian gospels are shameful gospels unworthy of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.The world needs a Victorious Christ, not one who couldn’t or wouldn’t save the world.

Love Wins Rob Bell. Pour yourself out for it!

..If there is no hell, there is no heaven, there is no resurrection,there is no Saviour,there is no God, no hope.....I must be living a life that has no purpose,waiting on a death that has no future

So Bob, in your view there has to be a hell in order for there to be heaven?

If hell was so important, why did God not mention it to Adam & Eve that this would be the place where they would go if they sinned?

If hell was so important to your faith then why didn't Moses mention it to the children of Israel or put it into the Mosaic law?

If hell is so important to your faith why did God tell the children of Israel not to follow the ways of the pagans by throwing their children into the fire as an offering to the god of molech?
Does God change?

If hell is so important to your faith then why did Paul not even mention it ONCE in any of epistles?
Isn't that a little curious that Paul never mentioned hell, never said that if you don't receive Jesus you will go to such a place?

Bob, show yourself a workman of the Word --- approved!

Get yourself a concordance and look up the word hell wherever it mentioned in the particular translation of the bible you have. Your eyes will be opened to the truth that it means something alot different than what has been translated INCORRECTLY!

I believe the real issue is like some others have mentioned...it's not about whether Rob Bell is right or wrong! Whether here, in between, in heaven or in hell, we all have to account for our words and actions!

I say, instead of focusing so much on what this one or that one say (not to take away from defending the faith against falsehood) but, we as individuals and as a nation focus on what is really important in such a time as this....
1-- Love God with all your heart, mind and soul.
2-- Love your neighbor as yourselve.

In that sence! Rob Bell is correct. LOVE ALWAYS WINS.

Great Post. So glad there is some balanced words written on this. If Someone like Billy Graham had spoken the exact words Rob Bell spoke on the promotional video people would have given him the benefit of the doubt. Why do we believers so quickly condemn when we don't have the whole story?

And when I read that Eugene Peterson endorses the book, that makes me think there is a whole lot more to it than what the condemners think there is. Peterson is right on theologically.

S.Schulz -
You raise some interesting points with Bob,and I am interested in your view. However you leave out one very important person in the Bible. You fail to note that "Christ spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven. In the Sermon on the Mount alone, He explicitly warned His followers about the dangers of hell a half dozen or more times. Furthermore, in the Olivet Discourse, Christ repeatedly warned His followers of the judgment to come: When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left….Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”…
How do you account for the very words of Christ the Creator of the Universe?

Hi Jeb,

Those are great questions. Unfortunately, the KJV has interpreted those passages INCORRECTLY. It is a FACT that the KJV has erroneously translated the word "Sheol" as "hell" 31 times in the old testament setting a foundation for that doctrine in the new testament and because of this many other translations that have used the KJV as their source have too (NIV,NASB,RSV,etc...). There are however a few that have interpreted the Hebrew & Greek correctly (Concordant Literal, Young's, Rotherham ect..).
Really the only thing you need is the Holy Spirit and a humble heart and He will guide you into all truth . Isn't that wonderful! It seems that is what He is doing now....smile....praise Him!

So to answer your question regarding those scriptures you referenced the sermon on the mount found in Matt. 5:22 the words "hell fire" are Strong's G1067 "geena" also known as gehenna. Gehenna was a very well known valley in the south of Jerusalem that was the big trash dump. This was the place where all kinds of filth was thrown including dead animals that were used in ceremonial sacrifices and the dead bodies of criminals. There was a continual fire in this valley to burn up all the refuse so that there would not be ideas . Now, let us remember that Jesus was speaking to HIS OWN disciples not to the world. Everyone knew what ghehanna meant and so what Jesus was unfolding to them was the understanding that to even call someone a fool they would be in danger of the PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD! We know that this is exactly what He meant because the word "fire" in this verse is Strongs G4442 "pyr" and means " TO PURIFY".

The fire of God is always motivated by love. It is used to tach us righteousness, to purge us, to refine us, and to bring us through unto VICTORY! (Is.26:9; Matt.12:20; Mal.3:3,4).

Now, let us look at Matt. 25:46 from three different translations the KJV, Young's, and Rotherham.
The word "eternal/everlasting" that the KJV uses is from the Greek root word "aion" and means
"age, period of time". It refers to a certain period of time that will eventually come to a close, for example "the dark ". So it will be when this age comes to a close and His Kingdom age manifests in the earth. This also is where we see "eternal life" as "age-abiding/ age-during life".

"And these shall go away unto everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal". (KJV)

"And these shall go way to punishment age- during, but the righteous to life age- during."(Young's)

"And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding , correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life. (Rotherham).

For a really great article that goes into even greater detail about the subject of hell and the REAL good news that Jesus Christ is truly the Saviour of THE WORLD I will leave a link to it entitled "if hell is real".
May the Spirit of Truth bless you as you continue to SEEK HIM with your entire being!
www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal

Sorry Jeb for the typos... A couple of those were suppose to be "bacteria" instead of ideas. The other was " dark age".
Here is the link again http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/.htm

S.Schulz,

It's inaccurate to say that the KJV is the source for the Bibles you mentioned. It's a commonly-held myth that English translations are based off of other English translations. For the most part, they aren't. For example, the NIV and NASB New Testaments are both based off of the oldest reliable Greek documents available at the time they were published. Technically, they criticize the KJV's and other English translations of the original Greek.

Pur/pyr just means "fire". The Greek words for "purify" are "katharizo" (48), or "hagnizo" (2511). You can have a purifying fire, but that is not the word "pyr" on its own.

Regardless, who in the time of Christ ever used Gehenna to purify something? It was a fire to destroy trash. This is consistent with Matthew 10:28 which says both soul and body are destroyed in it. This does not sound like purifying fire. The idea of hell, as it is currently understood, is pretty close to the meaning of Gehenna (if perhaps accepting the possibility of annihilation).

Furthermore, if everlasting punishment only means "punishment for an age", then everlasting life also means "life for an age" (which is what the translations you quoted show). You can't have it both ways. In the end, by cutting down on God's punishment to make Him seem more loving, you also end up ironically cutting down on God's provision for life.

Also, nothing says that an age must have an end.

My major concern is that the Universalist approach tends to have a presumptive understanding of God's love. It is of the variety that goes "God is loving, therefore He wouldn't do A". This is the same trap as in Theodicy, which roughly goes: "God is good and powerful, therefore He would not let X happen. X happens, therefore God is either not good, or powerful, or neither." The problem is, we don't really see A and X the way God does, so how do we know what He ought to do? We only know what the Bible tells us, and that includes talk of a hell.

God Bless you for hoping that everyone will be saved. God desires the same thing. I don't think you have this interpretation for any bad reason. Whatever you believe, just don't let it discourage you from teaching others to repent of their sins and become Disciples of Christ. Then, even if you're wrong, you'll at least know that you would have acted no differently.

God's Peace!

Hi M. Nikkanen,

First I want to thank you for your very kind reply. I also want to thank the Lord for using you to sharpen me "as iron sharpens iron".

When I first read your reply I went to double check about the bible translations as to their original source. I went to NIV's website and found really no evidence in favor or against what you stated. They do admit in their own words that the "KJV is their beloved predecessor".
I felt the gentle words of the Holy Spirit asking, "Is this really important... who is THE WORD.... is
the word that *quickens* from the letter or the Spirit?" The Holy Spirit started to remind me that man will see what it wants to see as far as the "letter of the law" is concerned. Yes, man will use the letter to support whatever the old adamic mind believes....if one is a racist they can find
scriptures to support their beliefs, ect. Bottom line is this, there is not ONE translation out there today that does not have any error... b/c man has been the instrument to interpret what the translation says. I praise God for the written word, even more so when the breath of His Spirit blows upon it to bring forth LIFE!

Again, I want to make it VERY CLEAR that I do believe in the justice of God, in His judgements, that His wrath does come against the wicked..... I want to make it very clear that when refer to the wicked I am referring to the old adamic carnal nature. As I wrote above in a previous post the judgements of God are always motivated by love and with the purpose to free us. The *FIRE* that you speak of is to purge us, to refine us, to teach us righteousness, to bring us through to victory! Praise Him! ( Is.26:9; Matt.12:20; Mal.3:3,4).

Now speaking of fire... You pointed out that the greek word PUR/PYR does not mean *to purify* but only *fire*. This goes back to the letter vs. spirit....smile.... the reason why is because Thayer's lexicon gives it to mean *to purify* and if you look at other scriptures where G4442 is used you can see that the SPIRIT of the word means *to purify*. (Matt. 3:10-12; Matt.5:22; Matt.7:19; Matt. 13:40 ect.) So we see that in these scriptures the Spirit of the word is not using it as LITERAL fire but as God-fire... The fire of His Spirit that PUR-ifies...! That is where we get our english word PURE from... the greek word pyr... and all of our english words like purify, purification ect.
I give you praise Lord Jesus/Yahshua!

Now, you bring up a very good point about the phrase "age abiding, age-during", many have
brought up this very argument too and once again it comes down to understanding/viewing either
through the letter lens or the spirit lens.
That phrase that you are referring to in Matthew 25:46 is the Greek word G166 "aionios" and is a
adjective. The definition of aionios is "without beginning and end, that which has always been and
always will be." This word aionios is also found in John 17:3 " And this is life eternal, that they may
know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent." Again we see that this is the spirit of the word ...not the letter.... For we see that this is denoting quality OF LIFE not quantity of time.
Each and every day His Spirit calls us to be still and KNOW...
As we yield to Him and His cross, we die daily of the old carnal nature, so that more of His life is manifested in our earthen vessels.
Oh! How the world needs more of His life manifested...more of His love that cast out ALL fear, more of His light that disperses all darkness, more of His peace that causes all storms of unrest to cease....yes more of HIM.... until God is ALL IN ALL.

His precious peace and love to you .

It would be interesing to see how the world would be transformed if all these so-called christiananity experts on heaven and hell would promote love of enemy, or do good to those who curse you and pray for those who despitfully use you. It seems to me that the hell pushers avoid the very things that should distinguish the people of God, and embrace a sort of spiritual nationlism that was foreign to Jesus.

this is Jesus
get off your macbook and iphone soapboxes and go create a little bit of heaven for somebody else today

keep in mind that Bell is in an obvious marketing mode with the questions he uses. His goal is not to offer answers on the video but to make you want to buy the book. The way he frames the issues plays into the hands of the critics (nothing necessarily wrong with that). Yet it puts a lot of responsibility on Bell to offer answers based on truth. If he does not, he has no true interest in love winning.
http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/rob-bell-on-hell-what-i-expect/

Who will be in heaven?
http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/who-makes-it-into-heaven/

What? Evangelicals labeling Rob Bell as an “apostate” and “heretic”; even questioning his salvation? All this venom simply because he said, “LOVE WINS” instead of hell wins? Some evangelicals condemn Bell for not having enough faith. Others are condemning the man for having too much faith. And to make matters worse, his critics haven’t even read his book which is not scheduled for release until the end of March! Have they forgotten what Nicodemus said to the Sanhedrin when they ganged up on Jesus? He said, “Does our law condemn anyone without hearing him to find out what he is doing?” (John 7:51). But this is typical of snarky evangelicals who love their precious hell — for the other guy. I have yet to meet an avowed evangelical who wouldn’t fight like hell to defend the concept of a literal hell with its eternal conscious torture — and, then, blame it on Christ the creator of all things.

I have seen the trailer for Rob Bell's Love Wins book. No doubt it is disturbing. In the trailer, Bell questions a man from his church who wrote a note about Ghandi now being in hell. I think it is fair for Bell to question whether a particular man was now in hell. What I felt was inconsistent with Bell is that he claims to have all the answers. Bell stated that millions of people are told that "Jesus saves them from God." Does Bell know this for sure? Really? Does Bell know millions of people? Or does Bell have a very distorted theological perspective? Bell also questions what God is like. Again, that is natural. We all do. Again, a concern is unveiled as Bell claims to know what gets us to heaven as he boldly proclaims love wins. Really? Does he know this for sure? Could "love wins" be interpreted as loving self and things, or worse yet just anything as long as you love? I know of some who love muder and deception. I don't know that I would say they won anything. And, why does Bell feel the need to let the rest of us know what he believes? Bell is behaving eerily similar to the very man who wrote the Ghandi note whom Bell himself denounced. They each claim something they are proud of! Is this not a double standard?

In the words of Ann Graham Lotts, "Just give me Jesus." Keep Rob Bell in the "feel good" Joel Osteen churches. Bell will make millions with his book however. Maybe Bell will win when he obeys the command of Jesus who spoke to the rich man. Obedience is love.

I haven't read Love Wins but I did listen to the entire interview of Rob Bell on:

http://www.livestream.com/lovewins/video?clipId=pla_9997e760-b88d-4294-91a8-142e5ed1c619

He said right at the end, I’m not a theologian; really? I don’t think that he needed to say that.
He doesn’t fit my idea of a Bible Believing Pastor. He takes a lot of longitude and latitude with scripture. If this is the future of Christianity, no wonder Jesus said that many will call me Lord, Lord and never enter the Kingdom of heaven.
In my humble opinion he is on track in many ways; he fits the mold that I believe the Kingdom of God is NOW (see The Divine Conspiracy). This I believe, but to assert that the Kingdom of God includes everyone eventually… a bit heretical, and all inclusive hogwash. I wish he were correct, no one would have to live out the great commission, our lives would be truly easy street. All the saints that died as martyrs, died in vain.
Hell, here? Where is the gnashing of teeth in the US?
I praise God that he is having an impact with “cutters”, hopefully this message, which truly is a message of hope will turn around thousands; and hopefully too, those thousands won’t believe that if they turn their back on their loving god, he will welcome them into the wedding feast. I didn’t hear anything about being a virgin with lamps ready, did any of you? My God, my Father requires obedience. From hearing this interview, I’d say that Rob Bell has discarded the Old Testament.
I could go on, but suffice it to say, Christians aren't Muslim so we don’t have to behead him, but I have heard enough and I’d venture to say one of two things will happen: 6 months from now he will be forgotten by all but his own congregation or he will have had enough influence with his Loving/Grace message that it will pick up an entire cultist size group. I believe the former and pray against the later.
That being said, twenty years from now if we aren’t all with Christ, he and this heresy will be completely forgotten or brought up again by another heretic. Satan keeps trying to change the gospel, and now that his bullhorn is so much bigger and louder than it ever was, he reaches more people a lot faster.
I said it before and I’ll say it again, Rob Bell needs a good spanking from Father.

I wonder if everyone who has devoted much of their day (s) to commenting and bashing regarding this topic, has spent a fraction of that time witnessing to others with the true gospel?

Yes, we need to denounce false teachings and doctrines, we need to pray for the man, but hate the sin. But how much more important it is to see some lost soul get convicted of their sin and confess/repent of their sin, believe in the true gospel, and ask Jesus to save them to give them eternal life.

I’d actually say that Love Wins is somewhat of a Rorschach Test: If you can’t stand Bell, or have always questioned what he had to say, you will read the book through that lens and find what you’re looking for. If you’ve been on the fence about him, you’ll still be there. If you’ve read him charitably in the past and found that, even when you disagree, he is still within the stream of orthodox Christianity, you will still find that he’s there. One of his stated purposes in the book is to get folks to study what is actually in Scripture, and to ask the tough questions – and accept fuzzy answers and to be charitable to others who do, as well. For example, here is an examination of what the Scriptures actually say about hell, and it is possible to take them seriously, yet come up with a different answer than eternal, conscious torture.

I pulled a Gideon at sixteen and formed a partnership with Christ. Since that time I have understood what heaven is and have had a peaceful eventful life with no fear and a clear direction from Him as to what He wants me to do. I haven't fulfilled all my part of the partnership, but Christ has fulfilled His.
We are in eternity now, and I have seen hell in action all around me. A step-mother who destroyed my resources. A father who whipped me with a belt because I "didn't do my best", a jealous sister who called me a liar regularly. These people lived in a hell of their own choosing, and their lives have not been like mine. Acceptance that it is Christ who matters and willingness to let Him be in charge makes life enjoyable. Insistence that you know what it right and attempting to make life fit your schedule and your standards will make any person's life hell, and it won't wait till you're dead

Sarah Pulliam Bailey writes:

"I've not seen anything like it. And, yes, the quickness of social media have made this such a big issue ... today ... and in a week it will all be gone."

This issue may be gone in a week for the rest of the world, but in Grandville MI, the chaos continues. This book is tearing at the membership of our church.

I'm not going to tell you which side of the debate I stand on. What I can tell you is that people are at odds with one another within the congregation. I'm not talking about lively debate, I'm talking about anger and name calling, dismissing each other because of a difference of opinion. Long time friends are at odds with one another. Our pastor gets up and says that he is exhausted from it. He tells us to be loving to people even when we feel like strangling those that don't agree with his book. Sounds like an us versus them statement. Those with questions are quickly put back in their place. Those that agree with his book cheer. More chaos, more consternation with each other

Everywhere you go in this city, you run into Mars Hill members that are debating and angry. One group because you've known this pastor for a long time and now you're not sure who he is or what he believes because you disagree with his teachings. The other group feels as if your pastor and his teaching is being attacked. You have to be careful who you give your opinion to because you will be labeled either a Rob Bell groupie, that has drunk the MH koolaid, or a relic that can't understand new teachings.

Now for damage control, our church is going to have another "Post book launch party" where questions will be answered and hopefully concerns addressed. Will this calm down the people of this church?
I'm praying so.

Why isn't Christianity Today doing a story on how a book can change the whole complexion of a congregation and cause chaos within a church body?

Sarah, I am sorry his book is complicating your church. I am in Iowa now and WISH SO BAD that I was living in Wyoming Michigan again. I would love to talk to your Pator as I had a life changing event happen almost 3 years ago. I was raised christian all my life. I taught Sunday school, our youth groups, did children's church, Wednesday night youth and taught preschool 4 days a week for 15 years in our church. That life changing event I have shared with hardly nobody as I fear nobody would understand. But it was real to me and has to do with his book. I have since stopped going to church and it breaks my heart!! But how can I justify going if what happened to me the church said is evil and from satan.
What happened to me was the most peaceful thing I have EVER had happen. There is NO WAY it was evil.
Again, I am sorry his book is causing your church to crumble. I hope that EVERYONE has read it BEFORE they make the complaints!! As I feel it is very CHRISTIAN!!
PRAYERS!

Jesus did not "save us from God"...JESUS IS GOD- mister.

ROB BELL IS A TEACHER OF FALSE DOCTRINE!! "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute." (2 Peter 2:1-2 NIV).
He is a wolfe in sheep's clothing used by the Devil to deceive those who are just as lost as he is and turn them away from God! "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
I say this to bring it to the attention to the TRUE followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, those who are His disciples as well as to those who are unsaved. We have a Scripture-based duty to not sit idly by and watch people be led to death! What do we do? Scripture says in 1 Timothy 5:20 that these teachers must be publicly rebuked. In the Name of Jesus I bind and rebuke the spirits of anti-christ and deception operating through Rob Bell and the pastors of Mars Hill Church. I command that all demonic influence coming out of this organization to be broken and cast out in the fullness of Jesus' Name. I also declare a curse over the head of Rob Bell that cannot be removed until he repents of his ways, stops spreading the lies of his false gospel, and declares the truth of God's Word. In Jesus' Name I pray and that the true believers also speak this prayer so that Your Will is done and that this deception can be put down and people be led to the truth! Amen.
Everybody, just so you know, the curse is done for his benefit as well as those he's leading astray. First because those who claim to be teachers will be judged more strictly (James 3:1) and a curse in this life is a small suffering that will save his life compared to the punishment that he's heading toward. God have mercy on his soul!

I did some investigation about his church on his website and yes he is universalist by his own words. Rob Bell is a false teacher and he should be exposed and treated like one, just like the Bible says.

When the rubber meets the road,I believe the question is, will there be traction on solid ground,or will there be hydroplaning on a road that has been watered down? There are many God-breathed books, and many books that appear to be God -breathed.But THE Book tells us to study God's Word so that we can accurately understand HIS Word of truth.As for the correctness or incorrectness of this man or any,THE Book says,"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,but that the world through Him might be saved." If we write scathing letters of condemnation and judgment,then we, also,have missed the mark.The answer that THE Book gives us is to do what we see the Father doing - love not the sin of the world, but love the people of the world - there will always be error and such until Jesus returns..our responsibility is to love God, love people, and to know THE Book so that error will be to us as a dart is to as strong shield. Love and blessings!

I despair! Why oh why will anyone with half a brain listen to our message when we shoot down those on the same team before we have even examined what they have to say!? We scorn the Nazis and their book burning and yet join the chorus of criticism against another brother without even having read the book! Are we then to be surprised why the thinking 'unchurched' world who too experience pain, suffering and death around them daily are NOT interested in our 'fundamentalist' message? Life is NOT that simple, the teachings of our Lord are at times difficult to understand - in the name of simplicity we have at times become simpletons. Our unlovely behaviour is drowning out the message and at times Pharasaism seems to be alive and well. If love wins - then the evangelical church needs to wake up and start being rather than talking and condemning. Jesus wept.

Rob Bell is a false teacher teaching many people lies. He twist scripture around and deceives people. There IS a Heaven, and there IS a HELL. “And anyone who’s name is not found in the Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire.” – Revelation 20:15. You do not get into the book of life by good deeds, there is only one way and that is through our savior Jesus Christ. There is NO other way, not one. So Rob Bell is indeed wrong if he is saying there isn't a hell. Matthew 7:13-14 " You can enter Gods kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only few ever find it." That is the words of Jesus himself. Rob Bell is not preaching the word of God he is preaching his own theories. Witch are not Gods word. For the many people who read this i hope you are not being deceived. Stay in Gods Holy book instead of Rob Bells.

This central question in the promo video for Rob Bells book about how could a loving God send people to hell sent me into a ten year tailspin into the new age movement. I can not judge the book as I still need to read it and really study it in the context of what I know of the bible. What I do know is that the only way to the father is through the belief in the son. There is a literal hell. We live in a fallen world. There is original sin. We are saved by grace which is in accepting the free gift of what Jesus did for us on the cross. He was born from a virgin, he suffered, died was buried and rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

I am not the judge and I pray everyday for discernment. One thing I do know is Lucifer twists the truth to mislead people and there is darkness and principalities we have dominion over by the blood of Jesus and what he did for us on the cross..this is good news or we would all be judged guilty. Why did God create us in the first place if this is the case. I don't know. Can we love our neighbor. Yes. Should we diminish the deity of Christ...NO. Lastly be very careful because it is very easy to be deceived and the devil comes to kill, steal and destroy. That is in the bible and it is either all true or why even bother with the gospel. Live how you want if you don't believe it all. I will read the book prayerfully. God Bless

Galatians 1:8,9 applies here cause this guy's pride would never allow him top repent...so, "let him be accursed" and let's go about preaching the REAL Gospel, eh?

I had an opportunity to have a short look at Rob Bell's book and I think its the best one to have one in your book shelf.

My name is Pastor Kevin Benton and I am the author of best-selling Hell book, A Field Trip to Hell: Experience the 30 Torments of Hell Firsthand Without Having to Stay for Eternity, published by Liberty University Press. Pastor Bob Bell's book has been mention a few times in conversation almost as a refute to my book, especially on blogs. As a Theologian, I give sound doctrine and theology as I expose the individual, 30 revealed torments of Hell in connection to Luke Chapter 16:19-31, The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. I take my readers on a descriptive field trip to Hell but of course being a book, they don't have to stay for eternity. I have not read Pastor Bell's book but from what I gleamed from experts and Theologians who have read his book, it leans toward a compromising "Universal Message." The Bible is clear about the requirement, faith placed in Jesus Christ, to escape Hell and the "free will" choice that God has afforded mankind to be able to exercise. Hell is a real place of torments and eternity does not begin on earth but instead after we die. However, according to the Bible, at this point where ever one ends up (either Heaven or Hell) it is one’s final destination and is now too late. I know that the doctrine of Hell has taken a watered down version in this day and age but he that has an ear let him hear.

Many people in the evangelical world find Rob Bell's style of asking more questions than giving answers unsettling. The idea that Bell might suggest something different than the modern "turn or burn" and "hellfire and brimstone" evangelism has caused quite a stir, including making Rob bell a trending twitter topic.

Do you want to know if Rob Bell is a Universalist or not? - Ask him! (privately or publicly). And if you want to discuss the book - read it. It is one thing to discuss a book and the ideas expressed in it, and totally another thing to devour a person. Many modern Christians need to wake-up, shake-up and give-up once and for all the No.1 Christian hobby-Gossiping.

Read Love wins yesterday.It changes your perspective of everyone who you meet. I can finally see respond to all people as children of God equally without judging but instead believing we are all destined to be pure which help me to look beyond anothers differences..

Yes, but does Rob Bell agree with who God says is a child of God? If not, you're following a false teacher that tickles the ears. A child of God, when you look up the verses, is a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. The Bible says that unbelievers are children of satan, not God.
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name." John 1:12

"See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him." 1John 3:1

And there are more verses as well. And regarding children of satan:
"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10

IF Rob Bell describes ALL people as children of God, I would put the book in the garbage, and go back to the Bible and more biblical theologians.

In 2Tim chapter 4 it says this about the end times: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

I believe we are in the end times, and there are probably at least several thousand false teachers. We really need to be like the Bereans, and check that what we are hearing or reading does not conflict with the Bible, no matter how good it may sound to us.