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September 5, 2008

The Gap, The Gap

Gallup has a terrific new survey out on the religious attendance gap--God Gap if you will--among non-Hispanic white registered voters in re: presidential preference. In a nutshell, McCain is rocking along at a better than 2-1 clip among those who say they attend worship at least weekly (33 percent), while Obama enjoys a 12 percentage point lead among those who attend seldom or never (47 percent). These margins are almost identical to the margins between Bush and Kerry in 2004. But there's a shift in the swing group of those who say they attend monthly or nearly weekly (19 percent). Where Bush led Kerry among them by 62 percent to 36 percent, Obama has cut the gap down by two-thirds, pulling to within 9 points of McCain, 41-50. That's where Obama's religious outreach is making its mark, for a pickup of 5 points in the entire non-Hispanic white electorate.

(Originally published at Spiritual Politics.)


I have a Christian friend who only talks about voting for john mccain because he is against Gay Right & Abortion. Yet, during the whole conversation he cusses and talks about having a couple drinks this on the weekend. Just like the Republican party he is so hypocritical and sometimes naive.

God help us!

What a laugh...calling his friend a hypocrite and then supporting a man who encourages the murder of the most innocent and helpless.

I am very saddened by so called christians who do not have a biblical world view...

I am also prepared for the accusations of being judgemental...I am well aware that I do not sit on the judgement seat...

At least your "friend" stands for something other than dogging his friends behind his back. You don't think the democrats are hypocrits? Dude, you talk about your friend drinkin, but you forgot to mention what you've been smokin'. The Obama camp is a do nothin, smooth talkin, bunch of liars and character assainators with more of a thirst for blood than dracula. How do you spew that garbage and still sleep at night?

Obama has acted more sincerely like a Christian than the disrespectful Palin. I am for Obama all the way

I apologize for the "republican friend" who uses foul language and gets drunk. These are very sinful behaviors and God is not pleased. The challenge for your friend is to "repent" and turn wholeheartedly towards God. God has given you insight into his character flaws and undoubtedly the flaws of others.

Your role is to respond to the Godly conscience inside of you and lead him to change in the areas where he is weaker. Proverbs says as Iron sharpens Iron so one man sharpens the other.

Too often evangelicals hang their sense of religious allegience on the legality of abortion and Gay rights. The fact is, like you, God has given to many of us insights into what's wrong with these behaviors.

Others have taken the philosophy that in order for a politician to gain our vote he must, first, agree to vote against Gays and Abortions. This is not Biblically correct. In fact God makes no demands on our political affiliations and leanings except that our example needs to be above reproach.

Which leads me back to where we start. Unless we show ourselves as worthy of imitation we we continuously be mocked and despised. Please forgive your friend and pray for him.

I am supporting Sen. Obama and I pray for my misguided brothers and sisters passing lies accross the internet and who have embraced a false sense of Biblical Security aligning themselves with a political party instead of the commands of God.

McCain is calloused towards woman and a known adulterer. That alone is worth having his NOT in office from my Evangelical/Biblical world view.


Birth control is increasingly expensive as are hospital births (we paid $2000 out of pocket despite the fact we had health insurance)
For many women not fortunate enough to be a Palin with a supportive family and financial means, a baby is a financial burden.

Universal health care and economic opportunities will result in fewer abortions. I'm voting for Obama.

The word Poverty is not even mentioned on John McCains issues page....


2000+ verses in scripture confront us on poverty and yet McCain gets the evangelical vote, without even mentioning the word.... RACA!

I liked the speech by Governor Palin, and was hoping to find out more about her over the coming weeks. I read this morning that she was a long time Pentacostal and then also saw this article that may, unfortunately, raise some uncomfortable isues -

The Alaska governor addressed parishioners at Wasilla's Assembly of God Church in June and likened the war to a messianic mission.

Ed Kalnins - the church's senior pastor since 1999 - has preached that critics of President Bush will go directly to hell. Although the church took its Web site down yesterday, Kalnins' sermons are widely available on Google video.

During the 2004 election, Kalnins - who originally hails from New Jersey - praised Bush, and offered this message:
"I'm not going tell you who to vote for, but if you vote for [John Kerry], I question your salvation. I'm sorry."

In another eyebrow-raising development, voter records revealed that Palin's husband, Todd, twice registered as a member of the Alaskan Independence Party, a fierce state's-rights group that has advocated for secession from the nation.

New York Post – 9/6/2008

As much as I'd love to have one of the most powerful jobs on the planet, as a Christian I couldn't have delivered Sarah's Wednesday night speech. The harsh tone and often deceitful content were, sadly offensive to this believer.

Ephesians 4:29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

Christians need to stand for what is right - AND - we can deliver the message with grace and power without a spirit of nastiness. I lost a whole lot of respect for Palin on Wednesday.

We have all sinned and God is the ultimate judge, but I've seen a whole lot of Christians embrace concepts that contradict God's laws for behavior. Is sex outside of marriage by teens just fine if the young woman keeps the baby? Is the past adultry of John McCain fine because he didn't lie about it?

We seem so ready to compromise what I've considered to be moral, Christian values to put the Republican right in power. Sorry. The ends never justifies the means.

Christian values indicate conversations about poverty, social justice, pacifism, and conservation of the earth God has given to us.

The Obama/Madonna/Paris Hilton crowd is just pissed because Palin called the elitest Obama out and then proceeded to beat him down...Sometimes the truth hurts don't it? You brainwashed blind followere are ready to crucify anyone who doesn't buy into all of your leftwing propaganda. You know people are scared when the bottom dwellers have to resort to character asassination. Get a life.

I want an elitist in charge. Look how good the country did under Clinton.

The hateful rhetoric of the republican party is becoming more and more troubling. Today I saw a bumper sticker "Too bad Hillary wasn't married to OJ" Who are these people?

Demonizing groups of people who don't share beliefs is hardly Christian.

I was prepared to like Mrs. Palin, but beyond her colorful story and ineviable figure, there is not much to admire on a spiritual level.

Detesting people with more education, experience, respect, indicates an inferiority complex. As American continues to decline, the unfavored ones will become increasingly embittered.

LilyA--your bitterness over Hillary being rejected for the parties nomination is shining through. Just be a good little brainwashed soldier and do what your liberal leaders tell you to do--Vote for an under qualified,slick talking,ego maniacal, celibrity elitest, media darling like Obama. Unless you actually wanted to think for yourself and...

So Hank,You wouldn't vote for a woman who ran her state with a huge amount of succes who you say is dishonest, but you would vote for a guy(Obama) who has a relationship with an admitted racist(Jeremiah Wright) and a relationship with an admitted terrorist(William Ayers) and who is an advocate of killing unborn babies? Some would say that you are as hypocritical as they come--you sound like a great Christian.

As I said, the ends do not justify the means. I am delighted that Palin is a 'successful' governor. BUT I can't respect a harsh, demeaning speech given in a mocking manner. I believe that Christians can (and should) be in politics, but we should hold up a higher standard of speech.

I am pro-life, but that means a whole lot more than being anti-abortion. This means respecting those who are born, too. Pro-life is a whole package that cares for the poor, the elderly, the ill, and those who struggle in our society. It also means that I respect life in other countries - which is why we should never mock the seriousness of war.

As for the Rev. Wright issue, I'd sure hate to be judged by every sermon I've heard - nor should Palin be evaluated by the words of her pastors - which is what the media is after right now. She should speak for herself as to her beliefs.

BTW - I didn't say who I'm voting for - I'm just saying Christians are very quick to condone sin for political reasons - and I have serious reservations about the tone and message we've been hearing from Palin.

I have posted on several forums in Christianity Today that the McCain campaign maked no mention of a plan to address Poverty on their website. Matter of fact the word "poverty" is not even on their issues page at all. With 2000+ verses in scriptures confronting us with the call to take care of the needy without condition I find it appalling that McCain/Palin are winning the evangelical vote.

So far not a single McCain supporter has responded to this?

I am not one for brimstone but Jesus says in Matthew 25:41-46

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Poverty mentioned from a man who lost track of the number of houses he has is too much to expect. Obama is no spiritual man of great regard, but his commitment to marriage fidelity shows a greater example than that presented to the right. Adultery and acceptance of teen pregnancy are not Christian values that I embrace.

What I judge people on is what they do with their "total" freedom. We are free to divorce, but what we do with that freedom shows us what we really value.

I don't want to make light of the fact that today the Gov't is facing an all time high in unemployment, poverty is rising, we've got trillions in debt and we are serious about electing a candidate who graduated fifth from the bottom of his class. I wouldn't take the 5th from the bottom on any school, and trust them to balance my check book let alone run my country.

Let's just be honest we need a person with great intellectual and emotional heft to help this economy.

If McCain prevails, he and Palin stand facing a Democratic senate led by Obama/Clinton and a House led by Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. Since, in winnning they specifically attacked these 4 leaders, do you really think McCain will succeed in passing laws?????

J.C. and fellow christians,

To help understand the issues surrounding the upcoming I recommend checking out this link: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey Bob Altemeyer's book, "The Authoritarians" is at times painful for christians to read, sometimes the truth hurts, but the truth can set us free. As a christian who was raised in an evangelical family and voted republican all my life (until 2004) what Alteymeyer writes rings true with me. The message I take from reading this book is follow Christ with all your heart, but don't turn off your mind. We should use the minds God gave us and not blindly follow what others tell us, no matter how comforting it might be to do so.

I hear you loud and clear Jim. It appears as though Hank wants to condemn Gov Palin for her tone, but can't see that the "libocrats" were the ones who began the hateful speech aimed at her and her family. It's beyond me how they can only see things from one perspective. Could it be the perspective that hopes to keep women in their place.

Hank--do you think it's the government is responsibe to solve all the social ills in this nation. If the church would do it's job we wouldn't have to be asking the state do it. The Democrats have created a race of people dependant on welfare and social assistance to be used as a voting base--you don't think they actually care for the people do you? Government wasn't meant to be so intrusive As i've stated before Obama has written two books about hisself and authored no legislation on Capitol Hill. Who's best interest do you think he is serving?

Oh, and Ben--You don't think that Jesus was talking to the Roman government do you? Get a grip, he was talking to true believers to be the ones to be feeding, housing etc etc. You're asking the State to be our social "daddy" The last thing we want is government to be intruding into every segment of our public and private lives. Why do you think you pay so much in taxes as it is? You took scripture out of context.

Slider... Oh i have used the context thing in the past too for stuff that makes me feel uncomfortable. That does not stick.

And if we are going to talk about the whole social daddy thing then why not get rid of social security, public education, and medicaid?

And By the way I pay so many taxes because I don't happen to belong to the rich elite...

This forum is becoming less of an example of evangelical Christian thought and debate and more a venomous tirade.

Dr. Dobson used to be very clear on the subject of mothers of small children working outside the home and premarital sex. His recent endorsement of Mrs. Palin is an example of how far Christians have strayed from their base. Anything goes I suppose if it is politically expedient.

I see the Obamabots have been here.

Obama - supporter of infanticide as well as abortion.
Obama - refuses to defend his country
Obama - raising your taxes so you can't choose what charitable enterprises to help
Obama - willing to force you to "volunteer"
Obama - friend of traitorous radicals

Yeah, he da man all right

Some of the comments above are perfect examples of right-wing authoritarianism in action....

Mommy Nater you are on the line of slander. What evidence do you have that Obama will not defend the country besides the vote he leveled against unconditional funding for troops. He made his case clear that he wanted victory defined 1st -- is that too much to ask. Even the Bush declared "victory" once.

For those of us who want a good economy here, it wasn't too unreasonable to define a timeframe/objetive first. Hussein is out of power right???????

John W.

authoritarianism is really true. What's worse is they would ruin our economy for the Pride of being able to put American Foot on foregeiners throats. This truculant nature will ultimately lead to our demise

Obama - wants to prevent babies from dying as a result of poverty (the USA has the highest infant mortality rate).
Obama - Wants to save our national budget from being channeled into China, Iraq and Saudi Arabia--making our country stronger. Man enough not to believe a ridiculous war will make us stronger.
Obama - raise taxes fror those who make over 250K
Obama - ???
Obama - charitable towards all.

Obama has stated specifically that Christ is not the only way, that Muslims and everyone else can go to heaven as well.

He has called Romans "obscure."

What exactly about him is Christian?

Ben--I noticed how you didn't explain how you didn't take scripture how of context, I explained how you did and you didn't refute it with any facts you just brushed it aside--that didn't work. Again, Jesus commanded believers to take care of the indigent not the STATE. I would bet that you or 90 percent of the fundies/Evangels in here have never worked in a soup kithen or homeless shelter--try it sometime(if you have I applaud you). For all the posturing that's done and people who run there mouth there's very little action. "Christians" somehow are able to relieve their conscience by blabbering about social issues--it's become the hip and trendy thing to do.The church has dropped the ball plain and simple.
To answer your question about social security--that's my money, I pay that from my hard earned wage--same thing with public education. And medicare--It's good for the elderly who have paid taxes their whole life to be able to reap this benefit, I think most people are glad to contribute to this. What I'm not happy about is the free ride that Obamacrats want to give people who won't work for a living. It's funny you sound like you're complaining about paying too much tax--there's a frightening good chance Obama could get elected--if that's the case get ready to dig a little(or alot) deeper.

McCain's answer to poverty would be to limit the size of government and it's drain on the economy so that more jobs would be available for everyone. We would all benefit.

Obama's answer is to increase the size of government and therefore pull even more money out of the economy which would then increase unemployment. We would all suffer, except the wealthy who would simply adjust their lifestyles and put even more people out of work.

Leaving aside all the other issues such as abortion and gay marriage. This alone is enough for me to vote for McCain.

Lets see, the US govt. had a surplus after Clinton, now we have the biggest deficit in our history. The biggest exchange of money in the history of the world is going on right now. And
people still think McCain/Bush will make our govt. stronger?

We are slaves to the Saudis (who by the way, made up most of the 9/11 group) and the Chinese (who, by the way, endorse, coerce and force abortions---President Bush had no problems with making nice with the Chinese at the Olympics did he? Pretty hard to complain when you owe a country 1.5 Trillion $ or $6000 per US citizen).

Be careful what you wish for, you might pay less taxes under McCain/Palin because you are unemployed... But look on the bright side, no house payments & no real estate taxes!


I have spent time on the streets not just in the kitchens actually talking to homeless people rather than standing behind a counter. I cant speak for any one else in here. Yes Jesus was emphatic about Christians taking care of the poor. However as you stated the church has dropped the ball and there is no hope given the way in which the church idolizes the mega church movement. As long as we pursue big buildings and budgets we will never address the needs in our community. Meanwhile tonight 670,000 people will be homeless. 50% will be women and children and 20% will be veterens who fought for our country. The quickest way to make the changes to help these people will be through government. I truelly wish that the church would get it as it would be far better for our country if we did.... Its just not going to happen.

People often criticize social programs for giving handouts referencing the whole "give a man a fish" thing.... When I hear this it is a generally a dead giveaway that the person has no clue as to what social programs actually do..... train people to get out of poverty. Take a look at Obamas plan to address poverty you might be surprised to find that there is no reference to handouts.

Context... Ok so Jesus was not speaking to a Roman official. But do you honestly think that if a Roman official had been in a crowd Jesus would have said, "excuse me this part of what I am saying does not apply to you or your policies?" I hardly think so... There are many times when context is critical but in this case it does not. This is why I brushed it off.


Historically speaking the unemployment rate has increased under the classic republican philosophy of government here is a link to the bureau of labor statisitics you can see it yourself.
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt . You will see that it was high at the begining of Clintons term after inheriting the mess of Reganomics, At the end of his term the rates were lover. Currently the rates are high and will only climb given the value of the dollar. So It just does not work, what the wealthy have done is to cut benefits of their employees and shipped jobs overseas. Did you know that the average CEO makes 400 times what their employees do? The reason it does not work is greed. SO i know I know you are going to hit me with the whole redistribution of wealth right.. Its a page out of the GOP handbook. I am not advocating that nor is any DEM all I am saying is we are a big country with big problems that need answers. The republicans had everything they wanted to give their plan a shot and we are in a mess because of it.

The abortion issue is a gut check for me for sure as it should be for any christian. Last year there were 830,000 documented abortions (from the center for disease control) there we maybe even more. It is estimated the as much as 50% were from people below the poverty line. People that knew they could not pay for the medical coverage, afford loosing their job, and could not care for a child making minimum wage, and would have to drop out of school. As well some of the people can not afford effective forms of contraception. Making the issue legal or illegal does not address the problems in the way that that abstinence education, contraception, and addressing poverty does.

Gay marriage. Is another tough issue. First the term is civil unions not marriage. As Obama has stated marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman. That distinction merely suggests that what people are looking for is equal rights. For a christian the feeling is that sinners should not have equal rights as those perusing righteousness, throw into that mix pedophiles, or other sins of a sexual manner. In my mind (I may get ripped for this by some fundies) I see that it is our role to accurately divide right from wrong but when a sin is not against another person it is not our role to punish that person as the vengeance belongs to the lord. I am open to hearing your thoughts on this so long as you dont assault my character or tell me i am backsliding or hint that i am a heretic as slider did.

Ben Rodda

Ben R, I appreciate your informative comments. Abortion is an important issue for me. for that reason, I cannot vote for Sen. Obama.

Yet I fear your views on poverty and abortion are correct. Laws do not change morality. But desperation can ruin a good person. Our country's economic situation is frightening. For that reason, I cannot vote for John McCain. His ego won't allow him to give up this war. That war is ruining us.


I know where you are coming from. I have heard people over the years say that they are voting for the lesser of two evils. The sad thing is that there is no viable or legitimate option at this point. I wish that there was a legitimate party that has the proposed moral value of the GOP with the economic policy and social programs of the DEMS. To me that would be a home run.

The worst thing despite your delema to do would be to not vote. The good thing is that what you believe is being tested and despite how strongly the religious right feels is not a pass fail test. Voting for Obama will not bring a curse upon this nation anymore than voting for McCain will bring a blessing on our nation. (I am sure some fundie thinks I am wrong for that)

Ben Rodda


I'll give you that much of our problems are due to the Republicans. That's because they did not do what they had promised to do and instead let govt. grow unchecked. I only wish that those cuts everyone complained about had actually happened.

The whole bit about CEO's earning 400 times as much as workers or whatever really doesn't matter to me. The fact is these people have 400 times the responsibilities. It only bothers me when they screw up and they still get their money. (Look at what happened right after the mortgage bailout for a recent example. They just got bonuses)

As far as job losses go, much more can be attributed to technology than shipping them overseas. And then again, if you are going to stay true to your desire to eliminate poverty, why should the US keep all the good jobs? If people are willing and able to do them overseas, are we not being unfair not to give them a chance? What passes for poverty here is considered pretty good there.


I already am unemployed and Obama will do nothing to get me a job, nor should he.


Yes world poverty is another issue... Currently Americans make up about 4.5% of the worlds population consume 40% of the worlds resources and rank 20th among 22 industrialized nations in giving per GDP. Currently we budget .4% towards addressing world poverty.

I am not sure exactly where each candidate stands on that. As well I am not so sure what we should do about it? We are electing a president of the United States of America. I guess its like my role as a dad. I care for my kids and take them along to care for others as well.

I really do like your way of looking at the shipping out of jobs positively.... Making lemonade from lemons and all.I do believe that a strong us economy will benefit everyone though.. just looking at our mortgage news today is helping everyone.

I also commend you on your sense that it is your responsibility to get a job. Its hard right now, more people competing for fewer jobs and all.

Ben-I do agree with the fact that our churches are outta control when it comes to perspective. It's become all about quantity not quality.Bush was on the right track when it came to faith based initiatives--putting more helping power into the hands of the churches. As long as we continue to subsidize everyones lives what incentive doea it give them to work for what they get--none. I understand that there are those who can't help themselves--I'm all for them. Can you tell me out of those homeless figures you gave how many are runaways, those who choose to live on the street and how many are in this country illegal. Arbitrary numbers really don't explain the story. Last thing, you're still stretching when it comes to your explanation concerning Jesus command to care for people. A Roman official in the crowd does not mean Jesus statement was directed at the State carry that responsibility.The statement was aimed at the individual--No getting around that one.As promised I applaud you for your social work.


Seems like you toned down a little. Thanks man. Or I miss understood your earlier response.

What is sad about Bushes Faith initiative is that it totally failed partisan oposition from DEMS (even though gore has similar programs as a part of his campaign), the religous Right was uninterested including Dobson and from Bushes senior staff bailed on it.

I cant get you numbers on the make up of runaways or illegals. Your assumption on runaways is correct there are many who do choose to be homeless. I actually had a pretty long conversation with one guy who claimed to have a PHD (no doubt in mind given the way that he articulated himself) and at one time had a large business that he lost. He told me that he actually liked being homeless as he preferred having no responsibility. I suggested to him that he was lazy. He responded that It was my choice to help him or not. I gave him a sandwich a juice box and a pair of socks. By the way homeless people really love new socks if you ever want to make someones day that is the trick. I walked away scratching my head. I remembered that grace comes with out condition. In all of the verses on helping the poor i do not see any strings attached. Sometimes I wish there were stings attached to grace then it would not be so humbling.

The interesting thing in our city is that very few illegals are homeless. They come here to pursue the American dream mostly and have better support systems. So in my mind immigration is not tied to homelessness all that tightly.

I still think that the context of the verses dealing with poverty are not all that important. However....

The books of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers were books written to provide laws that would govern the nation of Israel. They are packed with commands on how to deal with the poor.

Here is one such example Duet 15:7-11. When it says "the land that the Lord your God is giving you he is speaking in national terms.

7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.

there you go...


Billy Graham....

When asked (regarding his service to Our Lord) what he would wish to change, he readily and repeatedly mentions specifically: to have used his influence boldly to correct the scourge of racism.

The ownership of the numerous and venomous thinking and attacks above seems to be rather clearly coming from the Pro-McCain, and should I say, the virulently anti-Obama folks.

When we pray for our leadership, and when we seek discernment for our responsibility in electing leaders, do we really believe that God wishes us to choose someone from the bottom of his graduating class--someone who traveled the country, seeking a 20 years younger beauty queen infidel, when his "wife for life" no longer met his needs?

I'd guess that much of the poison above comes from quotes on extreme and unbalanced radio and television. And yes, I know that there is plenty on the left as well as the right. For now, I'll call them on those sins and try to understand and forgive, in a manner that I'd have them do with me.

In the end, most people live in the middle, and Christians, using Christ's example, after all, should be reaching out to all--specifically NOT name-calling and demonizing.

Just want to point out the context of Obama's comment about Christ not being the only way.
In response to a question from Franklin Graham he said that Christ was the way for him. When pushed further about Jesus being the only way he responded that he wanted to believe that he would see his mother again in heaven.
To me that is an honest seekers response and one which many Christians with unsaved loved ones would struggle with.
I must say this has been the most abusive and unchristian thread of comments I've ever read at CT. Most of which (but not all) has come against Obama, and most of that has been inaccurate fear-mongering.
Be Blessed,

I'm amazed and saddened by the tone of some of the comments.
Mature people can disagree without calling each other names or condemning.
The election is very important; however, how we conduct ourselves is even more important when viewed from eternity.


Ben-Interesting info pertaining to the Jews and what he expected of them,However we don't have a nationalist Jewish state. Even though he was addressing a people as a nation he was still calling them to act individually--I guess we'll have to disagree ofn that point.

The coolest story I heard concerning the homeless was when a pastor was told by the homeless shelter that the homeless needed shoes. He went back to his church and told his congregation of 600 that he needed the shoes, but wasn't gonna let them go home and get their unwanted,nastiest shoes--he wanted them to take off the shoes they had on and donate them. 400 people walked out of the church bare footed that day. Amazing.
It's been nice chattin' with you-I've enjoyed your comments.

Jai(slider) (jwynne@empiremachinery.com)You can e-mail me with anything you find interesting.