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October 14, 2008

Who has a better plan to fix the economic mess?

As Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson announced a plan to inject $250 billion into national banks, the candidates are getting more specific with their own plans to stimulate the economy.

John McCain will release proposals that add up to $52.5 billion, following Barack Obama's proposals unveiled yesterday estimated at $60 billion, The New York Times reports.

McCain will propose the following:

-Give a lower tax rate for people 59 years and older who withdraw money from retirement plans in 2009 and 2010

-Reduce the capital gains tax on stock profits for two years by 50 percent

-Create an acceleration in the tax write-off for stock losses, allowing Americans to deduct $15,000 in losses a year for 2008 and 2009

-Place a suspension on the tax on unemployment insurance benefits in 2008 and 2009

-Buy troubled mortgages at face value and give qualified homeowners instead fixed-rate mortgages (Already proposed)

Yesterday, Obama proposed the following:

-Give a $3,000 tax credit to employers who create new jobs

-Eliminate a tax penalty for everyone to borrow from their retirement savings, eliminate income taxes on unemployment benefits, and double the government’s loan guarantees for automakers

-Create a government facility to lend money to cities and states

-Place a 90-day moratorium on most home foreclosures
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Who wants to relieve another 4 years of Bush/Cheney/McCain economic policies...no, not even in a nightmare.

This article is a bit one-sided. You forget to mention that Obama would LOWER taxes for 95% of Americans. The middle-class will most definitely pay LESS taxes under Obama's plan than Mr. McCain's. Take the time to research for yourselves!


In response to Gina -- it is not possible to lower taxes for 95% of Americans when 40% of Americans already pay no taxes at all. This is completely illogical.

In response to Anna - even if 40% of Americans pay no income tax, it is possible to reduce the tax on 95% of those who do pay income tax.

To the gentleman with the economic degree; if the Reaganomics of the last years have worked so well why is it we are in this mess. Oh and during the time of this mess were we not lead by a Republican Majority Congress and Senate; even sir during the time of Clinton's push and subsequent signing of the reduced regulations on housing. I believe this was during the time when we called for a moral president. Look how far that has gotten us? Under Bush/Cheney/MC Cain we have moral representation for Enron, AIG, Leahman & Stearns and least we forget Bin Laden the one Bush had his family escorted to safety out of Florida on 9/11/2001. It is amazing how 20 days before the election the price of gas has fallen. Sounds like the release of the hostages all over again; or did we forget that part in history as well?
Grow up Vote in 08 but at least tell the whole truth. It is not in God's will that we should lie, or give false testimony about our past. We all have sinned. But please do not continue to lie under the disguise of the truth.

I'm so glad to come across this message board. Where I live, if you support Obama your treated like a trader. I'm glad to hear other people of faith who are expressing their like of Obama. You know I've prayed about this last night. i want to know that I completely understand who and what I am voting for. This morning I come across this site. I feel much better now.

I have had issue with the bush economic stimulus packages my self. The way I see it, allow my family to have a stable job that I can depend on, and I'll buy a car or a house. If you give me 300 to 2000 dollars I'll save it for groceries and bills.

I believe once the little guy, like myself feels safe in his own income, than he'll buy more. Maybe he'll build a house. he'll hire electricians, plumbers, order building materials. In the end that puts money in their pockets. Now they can follow suit in their lives, hiring and employing other people. And so on, and so fourth. I have no degree, but it seems logical. What's the old saying give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him to fish he'll eat for a life time. We all deserve to be able to fish ( make a decent wage, and pull our own weight). If everything is outsourced, then we'll be giving a way a lot of fish.

To K: I'm glad you came across this message board too. Please do not let anyone make you feel like less of a Christian for casting a vote for Barack Obama. As an Evangelical Christian living in North Carolina, I am inspired by Sen. Obama's policies and I feel that, across the board, they represent more of Jesus' teachings than McCain's. God is neither a Republican or a Democrat and please do not let anyone tell you otherwise and there is alot more to "moral values" than abortion and civil rights for gays and lesbians. As a follower of Jesus Christ and someone who is interested in politics, I find alot of inspiration from people like Jim Wallis, Tony Campolo, Shane Claiborne and media outlets like Sojourners & The Christian Science Monitor. Remember that no political party has the trump on moral values and that there are many of us in the Christian community that will be voting for Barack Obama.

What saddens me as I read all this, I see all too well the tendency for folks to vote via their pocketbooks and perceptions of their pocketbooks than via their values. Then folks move on to justify this position by backing them up with values, albeit muddled down ones.

Both candidates should have to pass a basic litmus test of beliefs consistent with the constitution and then hopefully consistent with scripture. But I would rather take a solid Muslim candidate who would be true to the constitution and keep it a solid document, not a document that lives and can be manipulated.

Does anyone really believe either candidate has truly passed these basic tests? Yes, there are more things than just abortion, etc. But this is like a first grade test, if you cannot pass that one then well, maybe you should be held back. (And neither candidate has a perfect record on that one). Do people really want to help the poor and teach them to fish or do they think by helping the poor it could benefit their pocket books directly.

Maybe we should find a candidate that is blameless in these areas and vote for them making our will as a Christian people clear. Why should we settle for less?

And if we are willing to settle for less, are we the same folks that selective read the Bible. Lets bypass those passage about idolatry and now believe a politician can save us, versus the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

I love the comment above that says Obama is going to cut taxes for 95% of AMERICANS, someone calls out this comment as ridiculous because 40% of Americans don't pay taxes, another individual responds that Obama is suggesting reducing the taxes of 95% of Americans that pay taxes. If that is the case, why doesn't Obama say that he's going to reduce the taxes of 95% of of TAX PAYING Americans, not on Americans? I wish both candidates would be more clear regarding their policies, that's what Americans really want. In addition, fiscal responsibility. If you want to talk about something scary, how about Obama's plan to allow the federal government to loan money to states that are in debt. Isn't the fed gov't in debt enough on its own? Can you say increased taxes to pay for the profligate spending on states like California? Well, it's coming.

If you want to see a major economic crises across the board, not one that just hits the financial/housing sector, vote for the candidate that has talked about raising long term capital gains taxes to 28% from the current 15% and top income earners income tax to 58% (I'll give you a hint which candidate has propose this: it's not John McCain). Take a look at where these types of economic redistribution policies got us under Jimmy Carter and then decide for yourself which candidate will be in a better position to build economic prosperity in America


I am blessed to be in the 5%...because I work 2 jobs as a highly skilled medical professional and am married to a teacher/coach who also works 2 jobs. I really resent the fact that I am considered the "rich" and should give up my money without a say. We give 18% of our income to the church, missions, university and many other non-profit organizations. We put a roof on a less-fortunate family member's house this year, put our 2 children through college without debt and carry only a mortgage as our debt. How can taking our money to throw into the "government pot" for less fortunates be any better than the way we are already using it as people with a biblical worldview? We live a very modest lifestyle. Do you really understand who will be giving up income and the trickle down effect for others?

Brian, I am the poor. My family has been blessed by the Lord, no doubt. I owe everything to my Lord. I can assure you from my point of view, and many others like me, having the poor make money does in no way effect my pocket book. The only effect I get is to see that they can have some self respect. Doesn't everyone deserve the right to the pursuit of happiness?

I was lucky enough to be influenced greatly by all my grandparents. I listened intently to all the stories of the depression and world war II rationing. My grandfather, then a young man would walk the streets in the 30's with his dad. Every where you went there were signs ," don't ask , we have no jobs."
You returned home to let the people you love down. I would imagine many people would not even know what polk salad was (a dandelion weed). Well he and his family had a steady diet of it. Grandma used to tell me to beware, that when everyone was gone that remembered, it would happen again. I've kept that with me always. It was not from fear that I remember, its for preparation. All I'm saying is that through out history, its like we always get a wake up call, to reevaluate. And I want this country to be proud, moral and strong. But we have always endured a little change each time we had one of these wake up calls. After the civil war, change. After the depression, change. World wars I and II change. Vietnam, change. Cold war, change. 9/11, change. We constantly change. It happens without us really noticing. Not all change is bad, but it all seems bad when your staring down its neck. A large change took place between the old and new testament. And I'm glad it did. As I studied this I realize that even then, the change frightened people.

I know we deserve the best in our office. But God knows who will be elected before we ever do. And the sun will come up November 5. And we will make our way. i understand the trickle down economy to be, " you stuff the cows , to feed the birds." and if things don't change a lot of us birds will be left with very little. I know people who make more than us, are worried about what they will lose. Point taken. But as in Nehemiah, a butler with no experience at all steps up for Jerusalem. He corrects the unjustness of how the wealthy, owned their own kind. He made them see that no one should make gains on another's misfortune. Their defense wall was demolished, yet he encouraged each person to work in front of their land on the repairs. Little by little the wall was rebuilt and neighbors began trusting one another again. Before, everyone complained about the state of their situation, but no action was taken. God sent someone. People listened, they stepped out on a limb, and tried. As crazy as that change was, it worked. It seems we are in much of the same situation now. We need to trust each other, work together, and yes it will require sacrifice from everyone.

shookie your message posted after I sent mine. I did not get to read your to comment. I understand that there is the two sides to every door. Our annual income is small, but we too own our home, our one car. We live according to what we can afford. This is only because we could see what was coming. we decided in '01 to regroup. God laid things out for us. It meant that most of our friends , just scratched their heads because we went against the grain. I wanted my kids to understand that mortgages, credit cards were a choice. Most have no way around the mortgage issue, we did. We embarked on building a 1800 square foot metal shop. We finished the building the inside our self. That Grandpa I was talking about, he taught us how to do it. So we not only had a home, but my kids were taught my an 80 year old union carpenter. This was the true gift. Not many people would find the joy in the idea of an 80 year old and an 8 year old, each swinging a hammer beside one another.

To get back to my point I don't have all the answers that make everyone in America happy. I like you adjusted my life. However, there are people who did not have the resources I had.

And your right its a good thing to give to charities. No question. All I'm saying is keep jobs here. Even if it means we pay 5.00 more for a shirt at Wal-mart. I my self think when I pay a little more for something that is made here (truly made here), Maybe someone from that plant is buying something else made here from yet another working American. The extra 5.00 could be considered my sacrifice too.

McCain may not be perfect for the job, and Obama may not be either, but what are we going to do. Do we leave the decision unmade? Until the perfect one person , with no sin or fault, and understands each of us completely shows up will we just wait?

Shookie, I am happy for you that you are part of the top 5%. I am too and feel grateful for that (although it is not something I grew up with). Regardless, "...for I have learned to be content with whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through Him that gives me strength"-Phillipians 4:11-13. I am sorry you feel resentful that you are considered "rich". But truth is truth and you are in the top 5% income bracket (as self-described). I think it's wonderful that you give your money to missions because that is certainly what Jesus called us to do. I wish more people had a heart like your own. But that's not the case. After 8 years of a Bush administration and many years of a Republican controlled Congress (until the last election), I think people are beginning to see that a "trickle down effect" simply does not work. People are hurting. And who will help them? Ultimately, we know that the only saving grace is Jesus our Lord and Savior. But we also know that Jesus had a heart for the poor and we are called to be His body and help in any way we can. Jesus cared very much about justice and challenged us to help the oppressed (Matthew 23). Is government the ultimate solution? Of course not. But we are told to seek justice and encourage the oppressed (Isiaiah 1) this concept certainly translates to whom I cast my vote for in the voting booth.

Brian, I don't think any politician is going to "save us". Did you understand me to mean that? I sure hope not! For it is only by grace that we are saved (Ephesians 2:8) But we must, as followers of Christ, connect issues with values. It's not about going Left or Right, but finding truth and common good around which we can unite and uniting around the message of Jesus (Matthew 25).

"The Lord looked and was displeased that there was no justice. He saw that there was no one, he was appalled that there was no one to intervene..." (Isaiah 59:16)

"If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and the malicious talk, and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in darkness, and your light will become like the noonday" (Isaiah 58:9-10).

Gina, very well put. I have enjoyed the opportunity to discuss this issue, with different sides of the spectrum. I'm glad to see other people's points of view. I may never have the chance to understand the issues the top 5% face. But you do make me look through your eyes, but for a moment. And I hope that others can see through mine, and others like me. No hard feelings to anyone.

Oh, sorry for the double posting.

If the Bible is correct how will Christians answer to God on the shedding of innocent blood? He speaks of destroying a nation that allows this.
Many young women are not given a chance to choose life instead of death. My sister had an abortion 30 years ago and today still feels the pain and remorse. She had a boy and she remembers his birthday every year.
It does effect women. Adoption vs abortion. To save the heartache of looking back why don't we promote adoption as we do abortion.
No hate intended in this. GOD is no respecter of persons and loves us all. But when He is the giver of life are we above Him to destroy this life? Many women and men (babies) have died that might have been the greatest leaders of all time. They deserve a chance to live. Just think about it. Would we be better off if you or I had been aborted? I think not.

Unjust Enrichment Law need enforcement. Problem solved. The Fed, Congress, Fannie, Freddie and all the other CEO's have been unjustly Enriched for years. Just type in M1 M2 M3 Money Supply Hidden since 2005. Over $500B can be recovered. That is the Law. No B.S. God is my witness. The Fed, Congress, CEOs, by Law Violated Unjust Enrichment law. The smart CEO's knew the m3 numbers and convinced stupid Congress and Fed not big deal with petty bribes. Congress need to enforce unjust enrichment on the CEO's America go after Congress corruption if unjust enrichment is not demanded by congress against the CEO's

The housing problem is not the problem.It is greed.Who started complaining the wealthy losses their butt Investing with big returns gambling is all this is.You rich people will lose and the tax cuts of 500 to 1000 for working American slaves.And the government gets 4 to 5 thousand a year raise and makes over 150k is still in the tax bracket less than 200k TO THE PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON YOUR NOT AS SMART AS YOU THINK.AMERICA IS WATCHING YOU EVERYDAY.It want be long till the good people of the USA will be sitting back on the lake fishing with the kids and grandkids telling stories How stupid Washington was.Their is no such thing as TO BIG TO FAIL Washington you need to be careful foxnews shows us tapes of you everyday the laws of the land does not exist today Washington is making the rules as they go There is a lot of hard working HONEST people here in the USA watching you and letting it soak in our brains.You see some people still have a brain After all we take our little check and pay our bills and then we will go fishing.Not crazy over a dollar I lost gambling.

You call yourself a Christian and vote for BO? Hypocrite. Yes, It does matter to God who you vote for.
Sleep well