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November 5, 2008

How Obama Helped Calif.'s Prop. 8 (Updated)

The folks at National Review aren't sure there was a big jump in turnout, though the Associated Press is quite emphatic that voters went to the polls in epic numbers.

In any case, exit poll data says black turnout in California was way up: From 6 percent of the electorate in 2004 to 10 percent this year. One imagines that this is in large part due to enthusiasm for Obama.

Obama opposed California's Proposition 8 -- though not very strongly. (An enduring question is why he opposed it: Obama said he opposes same-sex marriage but supports civil unions. Proposition 8 deals only with marriage and would allow for civil unions.)

But African-American Californians overwhelmingly supported Prop. 8, by a 7-to-3 margin. Black women (who made up 6% of the electorate) were even more supportive, telling exit pollsters they voted for the measure by a 3-to-1 margin.

Update: I've been playing with math and could use some help from some more math-friendly readers out there. Is is true that if black turnout had been 6 percent rather than 10 percent that the measure would have failed? I did one set of calculations that had Prop. 8 losing by 7,000 votes or so without the bump in African-American turnout, but another set of calculations had the measure still winning by 268,000.

Well, the exit polls aren't really exact enough to do this kind of math anyway.

Meanwhile, The Advocate, a gay magazine, offers another reason why Obama's election may have been bad news for Prop. 8: "No on 8 volunteers fear that with the election all but won for Barack Obama, California Democrats who would have otherwise waited in line after polls closed might be inclined to call it a night -- bad news for Prop. 8."

Update from a reader:

If ALL of the pro-Prop 8 African-Americans stayed home, then it would not have passed.  It would have received 48% of the vote.  But if turnout dropped from 10 to 6 percent for this group, the pro and anti group would have lost voters (assuming that preferences for prop 8 were uncorrelated with turnout, i.e., those who turned out for Obama were not more or less inclined to vote for prop 8).


Yes Votes % Yes
Actual Results 5,163,908 52.0%
With No pro-8 AA voters 4,469,211 48.4%
If No AA's voted 4,469,211 51.0%
If 6% of AA's voted 4,844,347 51.6%

Comments

It's God's will. Period. No need to speculate yourself.

I've never been more proud to be an American, and more ashamed of being a Californian.

The most interesting pattern in who voted for or against this is in ages. Younger voters voted against it. I find this encouraging. Maybe once the older generations die off we'll be free of these odd prejudices.

Thanks for making my wife cry this morning as we woke up to wonder whether or not we'll be forcibly divorced in the very near future. Way to go, Yes on 8 campaign. I'm sure God is really proud of you for amending the Constitution to take away my rights.

This is beyond horrifying.

You would think being the century that we are in and what we are finally "changing" that this would not be an issue. I am ashamed that as Californians we did not set an example to the rest of the country and let all marriages take place here. So we aren't racists but it is still acceptable to undermine homosexuals?!? Give me a break California.

I truly find it hard to believe that African-Americans strongly supported gay marriages (and even abortions for that matter) as stated! I will need proof of this! Gay lifestyle and abortions have always been a taboo for us! We don't approve of it, even though we know it's there in small quanitities.

Xander you should never be ahamed of a group of people who stand against sin.

I just don't understand how Christians can vote against the separation of church and state. My church has had a few same sex marriages over the years and it is a shame that some of the marriage ceremonies will be recognized by the government and some will not. I understand that not all Christians agree on the morality of same sex union, but I thought we all agreed on the legality of practicing our religious believes in our own way. Marriage is a religious institution, if the state is going to recognize the union of two people, it must do so without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, pregnancy, veteran status, and sexual orientation, identity, and expression.

From the beginning of time there has been one time that was as wicked as this one. Babylon proved the death of all of those who practiced "unnatural affection." We all know the fate of that people. If not then go read about them.. they all were burned. All of you that do not practice natural affection have the responsibility to thank those who do for saving your lives from a crispy death and quick judgement.

The success of proposition 8 leads me to paraphrase the first man on the moon "one small step for religion and a giant leap backward for freedom, equality and California". With the powers of religious sects at hand I doubt Obama will be able to do anything against such injustice. In Europe churches have the right to perform a wedding but it is legally invalid only the civil union dispensed by the state is valid and everyone calls it marriage.
All the legal advantages of marriage come through the civil union, some of the royal family of Belgium got into trouble because they had the religious ceremony first.

I am so proud to be in California...
So proud of "yes on 8" for Christ centered values...
Let me tell all those that think young voters voted against this proposition 8 look at the future....


Right now Christian children are growing up in church and staying in church and bible study and doing ministry work in their teens and growing up with Christ centerd values. Right now conservatives are having 3 babies per family. Liberal secular woman are not even having one baby per family....this increase is becomeing profound. The great news is the Conservative Birth rate is sky rockeeting. The number of chilsdren attending Chruch is growing and the Conservative voting base is growing every year. Christian children are keeping those values

on the other hand Pro-abortion Secular liberals are not getting married, and are not having even one child per family....not raising children with solid principals...So just give us a few more years..... When Prop 4 Lost it only affects the secular Liberal birth rate. I know every child is of value but secular Liberals are not birthing children. or ony one child....th

Are we forgetting the fact that 4 judges took away the rights of Californians' democracy when the 2000, Proposition 22, was overturned. That was taking away rights. Not Prop 8. Benefits are still given to those in a civil union. It had nothing to do with discrimination. "Marriage" is a term to be used for a union of one man - one woman.

I am so proud to be in California...
So proud of "yes on 8" for Christ centered values...
Let me tell all those that think young voters voted against this proposition 8 look at the future....


Right now Christian children are growing up in church and staying in church and bible study and doing ministry work in their teens and growing up with Christ centerd values. Right now conservatives are having 3 babies per family. Liberal secular woman are not even having one baby per family....this increase is becomeing profound. The great news is the Conservative Birth rate is sky rockeeting. The number of chilsdren attending Chruch is growing and the Conservative voting base is growing every year. Christian children are keeping those values

on the other hand Pro-abortion Secular liberals are not getting married, and are not having even one child per family....not raising children with solid principals...So just give us a few more years..... When Prop 4 Lost it only affects the secular Liberal birth rate. I know every child is of value but secular Liberals are not birthing children. or ony one child....th

I am glad that California has shut down this Sodom and Gomora law. It doesnt take rocket science to figure out a Woman is made for a Man!,and a Man is made for a Woman!

It is absolutely amazing that the debate over love is being used as a political weapon. What the religious zealots don’t realize is that any intrusion by the government is not a finite action. Soon the “black church” will be required to have a certain number of non black members. And vice versa. The Catholic Church will be banned from providing alcohol to minors during mass. There any number of ways you will be effected by not fighting for the rights of two consenting adult to openly dedicate themselves to loving each other. Actually I am not so sure I would want to be associated with the “church’s” idea of marriage.
Paula White-Divorced.
Jamal Bryant-Adultery and Spousal Abuse
Juanita Bynum-Divorced (twice)
Bishop Weeks-Domestic Battery and Divorce.
Zachery Tims- Adultery
Clarence McClendon- Divorced and then married one month later to his mistress
And the list goes on.

Peace! Peace! No more fight!
A new home "Garriage" is for two men or two women (double)only. The old home "Marriage" is for one man and one woman (couple)only. They are neighbors, they should have same rights and respect each other.

I was so blessed to hear that prop 8 passed. I believe that this country is on the tip of something amazing. Holiness will win over iniquity any day. Light over the spirit of darkness....

I have never been prouder to be a Californian than I am today, with Proposition 8's passage. The normal people of this state have sent a clear message to the perverts that same-sex sodomy is not and never will be "marriage."

God bless the thousands of good and decent Golden Staters who sacrificed so much time, talent and treasure to defend traditional marriage against homosexual imposters.

I love how everyone can say "california has spoken clearly" when you have a 2% margin and ONE HALF of the entire state angered beyong belief. This will not end here... and in 5 years to 10 years this will be reconsidered and dropped like a hot potato. I think I live in a disgusting society with millions of hypocritical hateful people who calculatingly went out of their way to take someone's sunshine away. I give it 5 years... when another swath of old people die and kids rise up to power... since 70 per cent of 18-25 voted NO... WE WILL HAVE OUR SAY JUST YOU WAIT.

Obviously i voted NO on 8

I love how everyone can say "california has spoken clearly" when you have a 2% margin and ONE HALF of the entire state angered beyong belief. This will not end here... and in 5 years to 10 years this will be reconsidered and dropped like a hot potato. I think I live in a disgusting society with millions of hypocritical hateful people who calculatingly went out of their way to take someone's sunshine away and changed STATE LAW in the name of RELIGION to be forced on those WHO DONT PRACTICE IT. I give it 5 years... when another swath of old people die and kids rise up to power... since 70 per cent of 18-25 voted NO... WE WILL HAVE OUR SAY JUST YOU WAIT.

Obviously i voted NO on 8

"Maybe once the older generations die off we'll be free of these odd prejudices."


Actually, you see, as people age they tend to grow up. They shed their childish notions. They settle down have a family. The kids start school they are met with teacher's liberal views and they put their foot down. It happens. It's called life. We all mature at some point and stand for something. The people have spoken. Move on!

Marriage in an evolved democracy is an individual subject, not a state subject. It is a civil union of two individuals who have committed to be partners for life.

Sure, a lot of folks cannot accept two men or two women being partners, as it forces them to accept something that may not agree with their upbringing. However, if two individuals wish to be partners, love each other and want to be together for life, is it really fair for others to judge and stop them from attaining happiness?

I can understand the objection to abortion, where the debate is against the killing of life, or the onset of life, but two individuals getting married is not harming anyone.

60 years back, people of color were considered abominations, unworthy to share the same societal privileges as whites. We changed that, we allowed women to vote, colored people to integrate into society as equal members.

Isn't it time to allow individuals who love same-sex partners to feel included, to lead happy lives, as good citizens of this great nation.

Think about it, before you react, reach out and respond. Love will heal all wounds.

Sam
http://www.noiZemag.com/

Life is supposed to be as simple as possible wouldn't you all agree? Albert Einstein said: Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

Why make it so hard on yourselves by such unnatural affection, vain imaginations, and inconvenient lifestyle?

When you don't know God, you don't know LOVE because God is love. He will give you over to uncleanness through the lusts of your own hearts to dishonor your body when you change the truth of God into a lie, and worship the creation more than the creator, who is blessed for ever.

Paul wrote, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that WHICH IS AGAINST NATURE. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with working that which is UNSEEMLY, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of THEIR ERROR."

I will only mention two of the penalties: 1. Death, from the judgement of God 2. A quick death: Gays die approximately 20 years earlier than the average heterosexual, usually from disease.

God is trying to protect gays from the recompense of an inconvenient life of pride, disease, fornication, debate, disobedience to parents, a reprobate mind etc. by stating that marriage is between a man and a woman. The supporters of Prop. 8 are only spreading this loving protection of God. Gays will thank them once they come to THE LIGHT


ALTHOUGH I must add one more thing... there was concern that 8 failing would mean churches would be forced to marry gays.... but would they? Obviously any church being forced and or sued to unwillingly marry a gay couple is wrong and in my eyes "a rape of church and violation of christianity" And I say that in defense of the church as a confirmed catholic and NO on 8 voter. The problem I face and many other voters was the opaque-ness of the law. All I wanted was equal tax benefits and union recognition... Perhaps there is more to the story than I imagined. Hopefully an enlightened reader will add to comment and clarify... By grace of God I believe in equal rights for homosexual adult couples under LAW... but that shall NEVER be forced into a church that does not recognize.

Enough with the obligatory “hate” and “civil rights” arguments, you all miss the point. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO MARRY! You just don’t have the right to opportunely redefine marriage at your convenience and force it down our throat. EVERYONE has the right to marry, but a marriage IS between a man and a woman; Californians have now declared this TWICE. No one is eliminating a right from you; we just reject your redefinition of an institution that many still hold sacred. A homosexual relationship is not a marriage. Marriage is a religious institution; the state simply recognizes the union and bestows privileges on those who the laws recognize as married. If you want those same rights, then work on expanding the rights the state bestows on those who enter into a civil union, domestic partnership, whatever you want to call it. The state granted privileges are secular, but the institution of marriage is not. Realize where you have an argument, and where you don’t. Fight for secular privileges; don’t fight to pervert a sacred institution. CALIFORNIAN’S WILL NOT ACCEPT IT!

let marriage be called marriage as between a man and a woman and let "civil union" as it is. Do not equate the two. Marriage has been originated by God as he is the creator of life. He designed marriage for procreation and rearing of children. man and man cannot, as well as woman and woman. A child that grows need a caring mother as well as caring father! Also, why go to changing the the contract into "partner A" & partner B" and remove the calling of hushband and wife? or eliminating the call of father & mother and just "parent"? I strongly believe what the Bible says on the hardness of man's heart" and "suppressing of the truth about God" who created man.

Calling evil good does not make it good - you can call it anything you want, but it will always be a sin to the one who wrote the book on what sin is. Afraid of offending gays? You should be more afraid of offending God! Love the sinner - not the sin!

I'm embarassed for and by all of these right-wing conservatives who believe they have the right to judge anyones life besides their own. Gay or straight, black or white, tall or short... its not contagious... this fight centered around humanity, love and the belief that we are all living, breathing creatures of whatever God you may or may not believe in... i, myself, believe in God... and i believe that he did not make mistakes, he made humans. Gay people are born in the way God made them. God made people all different colors too... and guess what, that wasn't a mistake either. We are not cavemen anymore. Open your eyes and EMBRACE HUMANITY, NOT HATE! If nothing else, i hope everyone goes home to the love of their life today and thinks very hard about what you would do if something terrible happened to that person... and God forbid you had NO say in their care, or couldn't even be at their side... all because a law said your love didn't count or "you're not family." i dont wish that on anyone. Not even the people who discriminate... because i cannot expect forgiveness in my life, if i cannot extend that to those around me. i pray for less ignorance and more recognition of the love that brings people and families together! There is too much hate in the world, and such a deficit of acceptance for things we may not always understand.

The No on 8 supporters need to realize this is not a man issue but a God issue. He set the world up this way. Your argument is with Him. How can you be religious and yet claim God messed up? Those of us who voted Yes are standing up for God and our beliefs. We are not taking away any rights. In the beginning God created man and then a woman to be his helper and for them to be fruitful. We are not showing hate to anyone. This is God's will and his master design. It is our right to stand up for what we believe also but you call that hate. True Christians do not hate but we do stand up for God. On Judgment day we will all stand before him on bended knee and at that time you can question God. Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Shannon: I could wrong, but I'm pretty sure this won't work retroactively, so you shouldn't be forced to get divorced (wouldn't that count as an ex post facto law?). I'm sorry for any stress this is causing you, and I'm sorry for the way that people like me have made and continue to make you feel. May God bless you and your wife in your marriage.

Okay, seriously people. Actually read everything in your Bibles, not just what you highlighted. When you look at the passages from the Pauline letters and others in the NT, you'll realize that they included all of humanity in one fell swoop in the passages that list the sins that keep people from "inheriting the kingdom." There is a reason the Bible tells us to leave the judging up to God. Yes, I am judging certain people right now. That just means I'm a hypocrite, not that I'm wrong.

awwww c'mon. Let's stop all this nonsense about whether it's a sin for same sex couples to legally marry. That was NOT the issue re: prop 8 and you who wrote it, know it. All good Bible totin' folk know that fornicators are the greatest abominators against God.. hetero or homosexual. I believe my God appreciates a gay person who is out much more than a closeted heterosexual fornicator.

I am surprised so many of you would slap GOD in the face. GOD does not support homosexuality. He destroyed Sodom over it. He even says they will judge this wicked generation. No civilization in history has ever recognized homosexual marriage...not even the Spartans who practiced it. They wouldnt go that far. God help our future.

"God's will?" "God's will?" Are you kidding me? No. It's the will of people who can't see past their own prejudices and cloak them in the guise of religious thought.

Every single prohibition against gay behavior in the bible either referred to rape (which anyone with half a brain should know is wrong), male prostitution, and other pagan cults where it was accepted and often used ritually during fertility rituals (rampant during the time of the Israelites and also Paul's time). Go look it up for crying out loud. Start with the bit in the bible. Go talk to an actual Christian scholar, someone who knows the languages the book was originally written in. Ask them. Know your religion.

Worse, half the other prohibitions in those same chapters of the bible are absolutely ludicrous by today's standards. Leviticus puts the same weight on homosexual behavior as it does on eating shellfish; both are a sin. And I haven't yet seen anyone not allowed to marry because they like shellfish. More tellingly, I notice that convicted rapists and child molesters are free to get married if they feel like. So... those who force others into sexual acts are allowed marriage, but not a man and a man or a woman and a woman who love each other are not? Does this start to look insane to anyone else, or am I the only one?

If you're going to live your life by the words of the bible (and there are a lot of good suggestions in that work, particularly in regards to loving thy fellow man), it would do you some good to actually figure out what it *means* before going out and violating the spirit of the Constitution, another work with some excellent ideas regarding how to treat other people.

I'm going to go pray for some sanity, and for the people who voted "yes" on this one who think they were doing god's will to realize who they're actually working for.

I guess I don't understand why people have such a problem understanding why marriage should be a institution between a man and a women, as the word says God created man and women to be fruitful and mulitpy. This is impossible to do if your a same sex couple they don't have the right parts with each other. I am so thankful that Proposition 8 was passed and the constitution was with held.

California ... welcome to the ways of the American Taliban aka American Christians! We have now become a religious state!

Thank you, thank you for yes on 8!!! Victory to sanctity of marriage! Hooray man and woman!

I think that it is extremely discriminitory for anyone in this country to decide that gays can't marry. I am a straight, white female who's eyes are open to the world. Granted we all have our belief systems, whether it be any denomonation of christianity, catholosism, buddhism, or any of the million other life guiding beliefs that help us sleep at night, in our constitution it is clearly stated that we shall have a separation of church and state. I'm sure that if there were any other religion in the world that suddenly became more popular than Christianity, you wouldn't want them imposing their lifestyle on you because they had the sway of the government. If that were the case, I'm sure all of you would call it a communism and a dictatorship. There are many styles of marriage ceremonies which are unions blessed before the god of their religion. For a beautiful union between two people, be it gay or straight, to not be recognized by the government system (not your god) is close-minded, and extremely discriminitory. I shall state, the blacks had their revolution, women had theirs, and one day, the gays will as well.

Cry me a river Shannon. You can still visit your partner, during intensive care, you still get tax breaks, you still get EVERY single privilege married couples have. You just aren't called married.

Its selfish take take a religious word, and try and change it, to better suit YOUR needs. No matter how it affects the people who have been using the word for thousands of years.

If this statement in a previous post is true, "All the legal advantages of marriage come through the civil union," and it is in California, then why do same sex couples insist on calling their relationship "marriage" which is an inappropriate term for their relationship since "marriage" implies an intimacy which makes possible the re-population of the human race?

Hurray for proposition 8

Now I can continue my life as always.

No commitment for me, no responsibilities, but yes on being a non-mature adult person who only takes care of himself.

Way to go, for the future generations of gay people.

Thank you religious people for basing your arguments in a 4000 old book. Thank you for following Paul's teachings (not Jesus) but Paul who said gay people deserve hell.

Proposition 8 is not the imposition of anyone's religious views on anyone else. If you want to have a wedding ceremony -- have one-- it just isn't recognized by the State. The fact that murder and theft are prohibited in the 10 commandments doesn't make criminal laws prohibiting the same acts somehow the imposition of someone's religious views on society. In all societies and in ALL of history until the last few years marriage has already been defined as being between a man or men and a woman or women. Why? Because marriage is about children. Two men cannot make a baby. Two women cannot make a baby. That's biological law not religious law. The interest of the state in affirming marriage and providing protection to it is that marriage between a man and a woman is the institution which has historically been shown to be the best for raising children who are the future of society.

The idea that what goes on in your house doesn't effect mine is false and an overused generalization. Those who believe such things would also believe that a divorce at their house has no effect on mine. Not only does divorce and same sex marriage effect my family but it effects all of society. Those who promote the idea that watching pornography in the privacy of ones home has no effect on my wife and children. Tell that to the family whos daughter was sexually molested by a pornograpy addict. What goes on in one house does effect another. Drug users at one home negatively effect neighborhoods and all of society. Over the years our society has had to pay a terrible price for drug abuse. Homosexual marriage has a price tag, there are several historical examples of this. I guess some refuse to review their history books.

People need to realize that marriage was (and is) meant to glorify God. I know that the gay communities throughout America and the world are people, but they are a minority. Why should the majority submit to the ones who cry louder? Take a look in the Bible, I Corinthians 6: 11-13. It lists certain sexual acts as unholy, and those who practice them will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. However, after that verse, it tells the people "You were once like them, but now you are cleansed with the blood of Christ."
This means that people back then had the same issues we have now. The world claims that the gay lifestyle is okay. The world is the one that will get us lost. We need to focus on God more than how we feel.
"I need to be in a gay relationship because it's how I feel" is not acceptable. I'm sure Jesus didn't feel up to dying on the cross.
God never gave people who classify themselves "gay, lesbian," those feelings. God offers hope, and chance, an opportunity to truely find and know His truth (I Corinthians 6: 9-11) However, it's the people who have drifted away that have confussed and turned away from God, not God turning away from them.
I am happy about Proposition 8. Why would anyone tell a 5 year old child that it's okay for them to like another person of their same gender?
Homosexuality is not the norm. It's not common, and it's not God's best for his children. God wants everyone to be with Him in His kingdom, but only those who know his name and know his voice, and follow Godly principles. The gay lifestyle is most definetly not a Godly priciple.

We will not tire!
I will fight this!
The yes on 8 campaign will not defeat the next generation so be prepared!
and im asking everyone to challenge this Hate! How can someone take away someone else's rights? Do they support slavery? how about concentration camps? any other forms of discrimination the yes on 8 people preach? or do they just hate the gays because their different? What if their kids are gay? Grrr im no longer peaceful on this matter i want my Equality and i want it know!!!

It is not about living different times or centuries.
God created a man and a woman and said: Grow and multiply. He didn't create 2 men or 2 women to become husband and wife. He also says on his word that shall not heritate the kingdom of God a man that sleeps with a man or a woman that sleeps with a woman. And he also says that he does not forgive the shed of innocent blood in other words abortion. This is the reason why this Nation instead of being a Nation Under God is a nation that is going UNDER!
IF WE FORGET GOD, HE IS GOING TO FORGET ABOUT US.

David Wrote: "Marriage is a religious institution, if the state is going to recognize the union of two people, it must do so without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, pregnancy, veteran status, and sexual orientation, identity, and expression."

As the article reveals: "Proposition 8 deals only with marriage and would allow for civil unions."
Therefore, the church will recognize marriage (between a man and woman as it has ALWAYS been)and the state will recognize civil unions.

What is the problem?

You guys are forgetting that weddings and the marriage certificates, rites, etc. has always been in the rhelm of the religion of the land the wedding is done in and seconded by whatever government is in control of that land at the time of the wedding. Some governments didn't even bother setting marriage conditions, they did not want to get into it with the population because the government would in time lose. It's only now that certain individuals through the governments are trying to determine what marriage is and have the authority or permission of it coming from the government. And of course, this is changing the definition and authority of marriage. The Communists tried this. Government marriages are almost non existent now and marriages are back to being done in the churches. It has alway been the way of the populations and their religions not the way of the few and the governments.

The people have spoken. Let it go. In the end, I don't think government should legislate social issues. If two people want to live together, let them be. Hell, if a man wants to have five wives, let him be, too. Oh wait, the government outlawed that over 100 years ago. Nobody protested then, eh.

Ann, bigotry and foolishness is also taboo in the black community. That doesn't seem to stop folk like you now does it.

What a sorry day for California and for the nation. All the people who voted yes on h8 need to have their marriages annulled and their health care taken away by the state and forced to go to other countries to get married.

It's actually not just a ban on gay marriage. What unsuspecting voters did not realize is that, while on its face it appealed to an anti-gay bias and hoped to pass based on that prejudice alone, it was drawn up in such a way as to prevent second marriages.

That was the result of the heavy lobbying done by the "One Man One Woman Marriage Society," ("OMOWMS"), which is a kind of underground society formed by a coalition of Catholic and Baptist fundamentalists. It pushed for the amendment to define marriage as between "one" man and "one" woman. The original language included the additional language "at one time," which would have permitted second marriages and simply prohibited the marriage of one man to two women (or vice versa) at the same time. But this particular lobby successfully defeated the inclusion of that language, and that is why the only marriage that is permitted under the amendment is that between ONE man and ONE woman.

Second marriages, at least in California, will no longer be recognized by the state, and formerly married individuals who apply for marriage licenses in California will now be turned down. Hopefully Governor Schwarzenegger will not appoint any activist judges who will read beyond the plain language in the amendment and start allowing second marriages. The OMOWMS obviously didn't want their efforts to become public, as they thought, rightly so, that although most Californians would want to prohibit gay marriage on the basis that God intended marriage to be between a man and a woman, those same Californians want the opportunity to remarry if they get tired of their spouses even though God probably didn't think that that marriage should be torn asunder by divorce.

I applaud California & all the other states that passed bans on same sex marriages. We vote for our elected officials, and when the balloting is over the majority has spoken. Why is this any different, the proposition was placed on the ballot, and it was approved by a majority, end of story. If the proposition were to have failed, while I would not have liked it, it would have been passed by the majority, thereby being law. Why do you continue to blame the Christian Church for your loss, is it not possible for someone to be agnostic, muslim, budhist, etc and oppose same sex marriages? The majority has spoken and spoken loudly. If your dis-satisfied with the laws here perhaps you should move to Belguim, evidently it is legal there?

I am glad Prop 8 have passed. If it failed, there would be different groups demanding equal right.
For Example incest marriage, several wives for one man, or several woman for one Man e.t.c
Anybody can makeup some pervert idea and call it discrimination.


god Bless

I find it DISGUSTING that all minority groups that were responsible for the majority of passing 8 have the NERVE to cry about"discrimination", and then go and do the same to others. WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.. If they can TAKE AWAY this EXISTING right, who's to say some day , somoeone won't TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHTS and send you race card carrying crybabies back to Africa and Mexico? Who's to say YOU won't have to sit in the back of the bus and drink out of seperate water fountains ONCE AGAIN. Yes the judges went "against the people" and approved same sex marriage , because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO. Do you think the "people" wanted YOU to be freed of slavery when you were, or able to to marry into other races when that was struck down? NO. The "people" wanted everything to stay the same at the time. The GOVERMENT STEPPED IN and said that was wrong - AGAINST THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE, which is the ONLY reason you are now free to do as you wish today. Karma.

Are we to believe that other ethnic groups aren't anti-gay? Mr. Olsen, u have a screw loose. Your agenda and motive is not apparent, yet. But in time we will see that your editorial is based on speculation not facts. Next time, please have facts to back up what you are going to print. Your article implies it was other ethnic groups that allowed gay marriage. Please!

First off, there is a concept in Christianity called SOLA SCRIPTURA which translates to "Scripture Alone". Basically it says that the Bible is the one true Word of God. If you are truly Christian, THERE IS NO DEBATE - homosexuality IS a sin - just like adultery. Hate the sin - love the sinner - that is what Prop 8 is all about. Your demand for tolerance is draggning society through the gate that is wide. And what's more, you want to drag our children along with you through via the school system.

But all of you want religion out of this Proposition 8 argument, right? Fine. Let's take religion out of it and argue from a leftist, atheist perspective that I'm sure your liberal palates can appreciate.

You remember the "Law" of Evolution that you successfully force down our children's throats every day in school, right? Well, exactly what biological purpose do homosexuals serve? Where do they promote the "fitness" of our specie? How do they propogate the progeny into the next generation? Your own "Lord Darwin" predicted that natural selection should progressively eliminate confounding factors such as homosexuality that would reduce individual female fecundity and overall specie fitness. DARWIN DESPISED HOMOSEXUALS - look it up. It was both his scientific as well as his personal opinion. Sorry to burst liberal bubbles.

And some of you say that this gay marriage issue is not going to be forced on our children in public schools? Yeah right. Take the above evolution example as a historic parallel - you liberals wanted Creationism and/or Intelligent Design completely out of the public school curriculum, and you demanded the "Law" of Evolution be taught as the only possible explanation of life. You've succeeded. Congratulations. Now why should I believe you even for a nanosecond that your homosexual agenda will not be forced down soicety's throat through the schools. Who's to guaruntee to me that my "opt-out" right as a parent won't be taken away "for the common good" or for so called tolerance?

You people are hypocrites - "stay out of my bedroom" and "stay out of my uterus" Uncle Sam, but when you want your liberal agenda force fed to society you are all too eager to use the government and the courts to try and forcefully change society.

This whole homosexual movement is based on psychological dysfunction of sexual identity and the simple fact that homosexuals "don't feel loved enough" by society. Listen, just because your Daddy did't love his queer son doesn't give you the right to legislate from the bench so that love is taken, under threat of legal penalty, from society. See Canada and how they treat priests and pastors who dare to quote the Bible's "homophobic hate speech." And you say it won't happen here - yeah, right. Again, this whole movement is geared at undermining the church's ability to freely practice religion and allowing government to enter into regulating Christianity and other "intolerant" religions. BY THE WAY THERE IS NO CONSTITUTIONAL SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. WHAT COUNTRY'S CONSTITUTION ARE YOU READING??

Thank God the conservatives still own most of the guns. When the revolution comes we'll be ready. Will you?

Discrimination sucks!

I'm not for SS unions, but to each their own. My issues would be with a state mandated recognition of ss marriages. To allow them, constitutionally would require that ALL churches would have to be behind it. There would be no way that a church, even based on its ideology, be able to turn away a request for a ss marriage. By imposing that on churches, you are forcing the members of the churches to back what they DO NOT believe in. While separation of state and church is still there, it does not extend into the their realm. State CAN NOT dictate what church does. Church DOES have a say in what the state does, because the church IS the people.

I'm certain that Ahmadinijad is looking at the Proposition 8 results in California and saying something like: "Ah, Sharia Law. Yes! Now you're cooking. Who is next?"

Excuse me, is this CHRISTIANITY Today?

It's not a matter of "equal" rights. It's a matter of God being right. God created marriage, between a MAN and a WOMAN. Everyone already has an EQUAL opportunity to marry someone of the opposite gender, or not. That's what marriage is.

Looking beyond specific Bible passages against homosexuality, God created males and females, and God created marriage, starting off with Adam and Eve, with Christ being the bridegroom of the Church which is very strong symbolism. Not two beings that are equal, but one being the head and the wife choosing to submit herself.

People are already free to have lovers, live together (in sin), have civil unions, make their own vows, have "life partners", etc... there is no "right" to a faux marriage.

That being said, I don't know that it's the government's business to give us licenses and tell us who we can and can't marry, etc. But I do believe that all CHRISTIAN churches of every denomination and non-denomination should be AGAINST homosexual "faux-marriage" and should NOT perform any such ceremonies. That is an abomination.

"What GOD has joined together, let no man put asunder"

Marriage isn't a "right" for any 2 people to tie themselves together for life by saying some vows to each other. It is a vow BEFORE GOD that joins a male and a female together for life.

Marriage=a man and a woman, aka husband and wife. God can have no part in the sin of a so-called homosexual "marriage"!!!

I applaud California supporting Prop 8, hope it stays.

Well, what if almost all the Black folks voted no? Would that have made a difference? Coretta Scott King and other civil rights leaders were also champions of marriage equality. What happened?

Thank God that Proposition 8 got up & that the real value & recogniton of marriage has been restored. All societies across all religious backgrounds have all recognised the value of the marital state as the optimal place for the raising of children - the next generation of leaders. Homosexual marriage by its very nature must always remain a sterile, barren place that cannot add one scrap to the flow or growth of a stable and beneficial society. I thank the Lord for America's sake, & other countries that see it as a leader internationally, that real marriage has been upheld. Sadly, no doubt, those who wish to undermine marriage for their own personal gain will try again to corrupt it. But let's hope those wacky justices sitting on the benches will this time do what they are supposed to do - administer the law, not try to create it contrary to the will of the people.

If we are going to define a religious institution such as marriage in a state constitution as prop 8 does; I belive churchs should then have tax liability. If we want to blend church and state in this way then pay your own way in this society (not on the backs of those you deny access to)

I am a gay Christian and I am horrified by what you people are doing in the name of Christ. My son went to bed on Tuesday night with his head hung low, not understanding how people can invalidate his family and my wife cried herself to sleep.
Thankfully, the tide is turning and people are beginning to see how hateful and dividing it is to discriminate against gay people. I pray that each and every one of you will have a chance to open your mind and learn the truth.
We aren't a bunch of freaks who want to marry their pets. We are loving, committed, families who aren't going away just because you try to vote us away. And yes, some of us are even Christians!

to all you christians who celebrate on a day when someone's marriage has been declared illegal, i want to remind you what god else god has stood for in history:

under the spanish inquisition, god stood for torture
under the flag of colonialism, god stood for invasion
under the flag of great britain, god stood for monarchy
under the flag of the confederacy, god stood for slavery
under the flag of nazi germany, god stood for genocide

i think it has been man's mistake every time, and here y'all are, making it again. scripture has never been immune to our confusion. you can always choose to use it to harm each other, and god will let you.

i cannot imagine it pleases him to watch us cause each other pain.

Prop 8 wasn't about "equality" or legitimate "civil rights." It was about overturning an activist court decision that ignored both the will of the people and thousands of years of religious and secular tradition as to the real definition of marriage. Prop 8 merely protects marriage from further delimitation into meaninglessness and irrelevance.

Under the wrongly-decided Lawrence v. Texas, people who desire to practice same-sex sodomy and other perversions in the privacy of their homes have a constitutionally-protected "liberty" interest to do so.

That, of course, doesn't make such conduct biblical, moral, or physiologically healthful.

However, unlike the immutable characteristics of race and sex, the alleged right to "gay marriage" was infirmly based strictly upon the choice to engage in controversial and offensive sexual conduct and to force mass, public acceptance of it. Much as Justice Scalia predicted in his Lawrence dissent, virtually any choosen adult relationship, such as polygamy, bigamy, and prostitution could be justified under the same flawed "civil rights" canard that's advanced by the Prop 8 opponents.

I want to add that there are already issues arising where Christians are receiving lawsuits for following their Biblical beliefs, for example a photographer in California was sued since she did not want to photograph a homosexual wedding. A Christian adoption agency shut its doors because it would have been forced to let homosexuals adopt. There are more instances, and it's just the tip of the iceberg. The homosexual "rights" will trump RELIGIOUS RIGHTS - here in America!

Homosexuals want everyone to tell them that their lifestyle is "okay" or "good", but no matter what we humans say or do, GOD will never approve.

I know it's been a number of years since I graduated from high school, but did they stop teaching civics classes altogether? I'm appalled by the comments here that show a frightening level of ignorance about how our government and the constitution work.

Just because something is LEGAL, does not mean that it is REQUIRED. So, even if gay marriages were legalized, it would not mean that CHURCHES would be REQUIRED to perform them. There are an almost infinite number of things that are legal that are not required to be done by churches. Alcohol is legal to be served to adults, but my United Methodist Church is still permitted to ban alcohol from being served on its premises.

Similarly, just because the GOVERNMENT is barred from discriminating, it does not mean that CHURCHES are barred from discriminating. The government may not deny marriage licenses to interracial couples, but churches are free to discriminate to their (bigoted) heart's content. Thus, even if the government were barred from denying marriage licenses to gays and lesbians, it does not in any way mean that churches would be forbidden to refuse to perform gay marriages.

Even general civil rights laws, like those that bar racial and gender discrimination in employment and college admissions do not apply to churches. Churches are not required to hire women in positions of authority or to hire pastors or staff of a different ethnicity. This is because of the First Amendment -- "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

Granting "marriage" licenses to some couples, while granting "civil union" licenses to other couples, even if the "civil unions" carry all the "rights" of "marriages," sounds suspiciously like "separate but equal" to me. It didn't work with racial discrimination. Someday, it will no longer work with sexual orientation discrimination.

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

So many words, so many words. If one is quiet and clear, truth comes. I was raised in a Christian denomination and took away from it that once the Christ Spirit and universal love are awakened in one's heart, anger and labels melt away, and one wants happiness and harmony for all. Of course this means that part of the self must die, and the surrender of the pleasure of feeling "right." No book or person taught me this; when one is quiet, Divine Spirit speaks. All people and beings ARE equal, it's just that society hasn't caught up yet. From reading the comments above, there appear to be as many versions of who God "is" as there are writers on this site. Try living in the moment-to-moment experiencing of Divine Spirit. It's really beautiful. The writers of the Bible were divinely inspired and there is no reason to believe that the stream from which they drew their knowledge does not continue to this day.

I'd take the argments of the no-gay-marriage believers seriously if these same believers would go after divorce in their own churches/communities with the same zeal!

Divorce IS clearly discussed in the Bible.

But, it's easier to pick on a minority in our population than risk alienating a great many of your church members and losing all their money.

The whole thing seems hypocritical.

Marriage equality is a civil rights issue, plain and simple.  Seperate but equal is never equal. If we as a people were to apply the attitude taken by the "Yes on 8" supporters regarding the Civil Righ Marriage equality will prevail very soon in  California and then,the rest of the nation. If people don't like it, they shouldn't be gay and get married. Period. I refuse to stand still when people take away my rights but expect me to continue to pay taxes and positively contribute to this society.  I live in a secular country, not a theocracy!  The bible is a much maligned and misused text as well as heavily edited take on "history". I respect the faithful's right to believe.  Just do not use those beliefs to impose your"moral values"on my family.  I can assure you all that Jesus or a just god would not approve of your interpretation of the bible as a justification for hatred, prejudice and bigotry. Pray on that for a while.  You know your actions are hurting families that have the same rights to marriage protections as yours does!

Marriage equality is a civil rights issue, plain and simple.  Separate but equal is never equal. If we as a people were to apply the attitude taken by the "Yes on 8" supporters regarding the Civil Rights Act, The 13th Amendendment or The Women's Right to Vote, where would we be? Marriage equality will prevail very soon in  California and then,the rest of the nation. If people don't like it, they shouldn't be gay and get married. Period. I refuse to stand still when people take away my rights but expect me to continue to pay taxes and positively contribute to this society.  I live in a secular country, not a theocracy!  The bible is a much maligned and misused text as well as heavily edited take on "history". I respect the faithful's right to believe.  Just do not use those beliefs to impose your"moral values"on my family.  I can assure you all that Jesus or a just god would not approve of your interpretation of the bible as a justification for hatred, prejudice and bigotry. Pray on that for a while.  You know your actions are hurting families that have the same rights to marriage protections as yours does!

I SEE THE BAN ON SAME- SEX MARRIAGE AS THE VICTORY OF THE FORCE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS OVER UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. THIS IS THE BEST THING TO DO IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE; A RETURN TO THE BIBLICAL POSITION.SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IN ALL ITS RAMIFICATIONS IS AGAINST MORAL LAW AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE SCRIPTURES.BY GOD'S STANDARD, IT IS AN ABOMINATION.THE CHRISTIAN WORLD SHOULD REJECT IT VEHEMENTLY
JOHNNY
LAGOS,NIGERIA

I SEE THE BAN ON SAME- SEX MARRIAGE AS THE VICTORY OF THE FORCE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS OVER UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. THIS IS THE BEST THING TO DO IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE; A RETURN TO THE BIBLICAL POSITION.SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IN ALL ITS RAMIFICATIONS IS AGAINST MORAL LAW AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE SCRIPTURES.BY GOD'S STANDARD, IT IS AN ABOMINATION.THE CHRISTIAN WORLD SHOULD REJECT IT VEHEMENTLY
JOHNNY
LAGOS,NIGERIA

Sounds like those which are against Obama and democrats are starting to attacking Obama to divide the democrats for the coming 2012 election....

Look as if the all out attack on Obama and the democrats to divide has started by the republicans and their Christian counterparts for the coming 2012 election..
I thought the Christians were for these actions , yet they are trying to push the blame on the black voters...

I don't understand the way the people by the people think. When Obama thank the american people he made it plan and loud on t.v. thanks to the gay people and ect.
But as a country we kill childern that is not born yet, and we as a country try or best to change the union of a marriage and then we as god to bless us by Obama give me a brake........

The country need to wake up we as a nation have done everything to distroy the bible and the law that was set up by god....

In the book of Genesis when God or Father made Adam that was our father in the beginning God made Woman that was our mother eve... Not man of man or Woman of Woman both should be joined as one (not two for two)... and you people say your Christian give me a brake.... How can God bless this country when we have turn our back on him.... we have kill childern to cover up our sin because we as a nation cannot stand up and say we have all we can stand....

There is no prayers or people that well stand up and say no more..........

Well am going to am going to do everything in my power to put a stop to the killing of our childern
that cannot talk or stand up and be counted.....

This country is no better then Germany was killing people to get them off the face of the earth... but as a country is doing it different we are doing it when a child cannot talk, so we as a county we are no better off then Germany was..........


A constructive dialogue will never happen until:

1) Christians stop "hating" gays. All have sinned and fall short. Gays are no different from heterosexuals who have sex outside the covenant of marriage, or heterosexuals who commit adultery. Taking extreme views on one group while ignoring the other compromises how we are to view sexual immorality.

2) Christians and Gays are able to know each other. How many Christians actually know a gay person or the prejudice faced by a gay person? How many gay people are willing to trust that there are authentic churches that are not a lynch mob? There is no room for "hate" in the eyes of Christ when it comes to the recovery of lost souls.

3) Prop 8 is a moral issue, not a civil rights issue. Arguing that it's a civil rights issue or binding it to racism completely clouds the issue. What would Martin Luther King Jr. say if he saw how anti-Christian the Civil Rights Movement has become? The ACLU and NAACP have lost steam because they fail to recognize that their existence is based on the Christian foundation of this nation. Go to any other country in the world and you will find out what it means to be suppressed.

4) The Same-Sex marriage movement suffers from an unclear identity. Grouping LGBT together also doesn't make sense. Bi-sexuals and Trans-gender people arguing for same-sex marriage? They want a free for all. Making gender irrelevant is a very big leap in a world where there are roles by gender. Again, you can not win the same sex marriage argument if you try to include groups that obviously by definition are against any form of marriage.

5) The definition of marriage is being compromised by both sides. The divorce rate is not improving. If we are to believe in the institution of marriage, then we need to articulate that that means. It certainly is not just about a license between a man and a woman. The more constructive question is how we can stop the decay of values that are leading us to stray from the teachings of Christ.

6) My fear with allowing the definition of marriage to change came from the following experience. As a citizen I "married" my wife who was a foreigner and thus she gets a green card. This is one of the easiest ways a foreigner becomes a permanent resident. So by allowing the definition of marriage to change, would it thus allow twisted American men (who go to Thailand to have sex with boys who convincingly look like women) to bring these sexual partners into the US and legitimize their relationship? I know it's not a mainstream example, but I my fear as a Christian tolerant of gays but not gay sex, is that we would be opening the floodgates to all kinds of lifestyles that are clearly less than marriage.

7) What does it mean to be a gay Christian anyway? Does it allow for anything other than living a life of celibacy just like a heterosexual single?

I believe there is a lot more dialogue and thought necessary before we cast votes on this issue. Both sides used extreme arguments which will never promote unity and never remove the hate that I am certain is unacceptable in the eyes of Christ.

Your article is preposterous when it isolates only the pro-Prop 8 blacks. If they had stayed home, you conclude, it would not have won. Well, if all of the pro-Prop 8 Latinos or Whites had stayed home, you would have had the same result -- it would have been defeated and by a much larger margin! Also, if you removed the black vote altogether (not just the pro vote) it would still have passed.

I totally agree with God is Holy, dated November 5th. He/she summed it up in a nutshell. My former boss is a lesbian. She was "ok" in personality, but when we were in a conversation and she brought up her weekend events with her partner, I was very uncomfortable and each time I would change the subject! There was just something ugly about hearing things that is more normal with a man and woman (husband and wife -v- a wife and wife)!!! She attempted to file a complaint against me saying I was talking about God to much! This wasn't true. I only brought up God in reference to my testimonies. Giving Him the glory!! I don't mean to be mean, because these people are human beings with feelings, but I know God doesn't approve of this. It's in the bible and therefore when those in this lifestyle profess Christianity, I have to wonder if they are skipping certain sections concerning this lifestyle when they read the bible (when it talks about a man shouldn't lay with a man; and a woman shouldn't lay with a woman doing PERVERSE things! That they will not enter the kingdom of God as with liars, fornicators, adulters, etc)! It's all sin! We can't choose what is acceptable sin and what is not, simply because it seems like the norm!! I'm an African-American and know what's it's like to be discrimated against! There was a time inter-racial marriages were illegal in certain states! Inter-racial relationships are tough even today due to bigotry! But this is truly truly different!! This country is suffering from many atrosities because of so much allowed PERVERSION!! Without repetence, I just can't envision God saying, "well done my good and faithful servant. You many enter into the kingdom of God even with the unrepented sin of homosexuality." I do think if they are in relationships, they deserve the same healthcare coverage and other things. But at the same time I don't think I would allow laws that would help encourage or promote the lifestyles legally! I don't know! I just don't know! I don't want to hurt anyone, but if this is and other perversions continue, the wrath of God will intensify against this nation! America must repent for alot of things that we have just slid under the rugs for way to long!! My heart truly breaks for those in this lifestyle! It's just hard to comprehend that so much is happening in this country that use to be so taboo (homsexuality, abortion, pornography, human trafficking, etc etc).

The people of the United States would not have voted for black civil rights, so the Supreme Court took the decision away from them and imposed equality.

Similarly, the people of the United States will not vote for gay civil rights, and *eventually* the Supreme Court will take that decision away from them and impose equality.

A civil union in no way compares with the rights conferred by marriage. There are close to 20 benefits given by marriage that are not given by a civil union.

Most particularly, there is a tacit global reciprocity whereby any nation's form of marriage is USUALLY recognized by other nations. In other words, when gay persons are deemed to have married under civil law in this country, their marriage will be deemed valid in MOST other nations. Such presumption of validity is a very valuable benefit which is not conferred by any civil union.