« S.C. Governor Admits Affair, Asks Forgiveness | Main | Sanford: Spiritual Adviser Chaperoned Mistress Farewell Meeting »

June 29, 2009

Has Obama Chosen a Church?

Time magazine reports that President Obama has told his aides that his primary place of worship will be Evergreen Chapel, the nondenominational church at Camp David.

The White House has not made an official statement yet.

Update: White House Deputy Press Secretary Jen Psaki said by e-mail: "The President and First Family continue to look for a church home. They have enjoyed worshipping at Camp David and several other congregations over the months, and will choose a church at the time that is best for their family."

Amy Sullivan and Elizabeth Dias reported that a number of factors drove the decision - financial, political, personal, and being able to worship without being on display. At St. John's, worshippers snapped photos of Obama with their camera phones.

Carey Cash, who attended Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth and served as a chaplain in the Iraq War, preaches at the chapel.

If the White House had custom-ordered a pastor to be the polar opposite of Jeremiah Wright, they could not have come as close as Cash. (As it is, the White House had no hand in selecting Cash. The Navy rotates chaplains through Camp David every three years; Cash began his tour this past January.) The 38-year-old Memphis native is a graduate of the Citadel and the great-nephew of Johnny Cash. He served a tour as chaplain with a Marine battalion in Iraq and baptized nearly 60 Marines during that time. Cash earned his theology degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth - and, yes, that means Obama's new pastor is a Southern Baptist.

Time reports that Obama will still looking for someone he can pray with and turn to for spiritual guidance. An earlier New York Times article reported that Obama's spiritual advisers have included Otis Moss, T. D. Jakes, Kirbyjon Caldwell, Jim Wallis, and Joel Hunter.

Comments

Since I don't care about denominations and only care about the Word of God being taught without some denominational twist, this story tells us nothing.

If the pastor is a polar opposite of mr.wright, then explain how please. This article tells us nothing of his character or teaching. Baptizing people means nothing if the baptism was not following a converted heart.

I do know that Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth is a very solid and biblical school. If Cash holds to the same theology as that school, then he will be preaching the truth and true salvation through a converted heart and genuine repentance. Although I don't know how much his current beliefs line up with the theology of Southwestern.

Obama is a Muslim.

Oh please. How can anyone still think Obama is Muslim? He has a decades-long history of Christian practice right here in Chicago.

I appreciate that they want to worship where they won't be the center of a circus.

If he were a Christian, would he be pro-abortion?

Absolutely! You would be surprise how many christians are
==================================================
Deb wrote "If he were a Christian, would he be pro-abortion?"

Who he is, is a man that needs lots of people praying for him. With his history of saying exactly opposite of what he's thinking or doing, I think it's fair to say that we are PROBABLY looking at a wolf. That doesn't make him a Muslim, it make him a politician. A man in need of a lot of prayer.

He most certainly is in need of prayer!! But can someone claim to be pro-abortion and still be Christian?

Oh goodness gracious me!!!!!! Already asked and answered!!!!

Yes you can be.

But last time I checked neither you nor I get to determine who is or isn't a Christian though. One being does that. You and I just have opinions and prayers. And less of one and more of the other would serve us all better ==================================================
He most certainly is in need of prayer!! But can someone claim to be pro-abortion and still be Christian?

I dopn't believe we are supposed to judge...but the bible tells us "that by your fruit ye shall know them"....so far from what I have seen as just a "fruit inspector"...we can't be for homoxesual policies and for abortion and line our views up with God's word...so I am sceptical that someone would call themselves "Christian" and be so diametrically oposssed to what it teaches

I agree with Justin--Mr. Obama has said he is a Christian and we must accept his statement of faith. I will continue to pray for Mr. Obama, who got my vote, as I have prayed for all the political leaders in whose jurisdictions I have lived, whether I voted for those individuals or not. Governance is a terribly demanding, difficult, and heart-breaking job, and I trust that my prayers uphold and uplift those for whom I pray.

In regards to homosexuality or abortion, the beliefs among Christians are very diverse, and again, we are not called to violence in word or deed, but rather loving, peaceable care of our fellows and letting them know of Gods love for them, because, as Paul wrote, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Obama is a Communist, a Muslim, a murderer and an enemy of the U.S. Constitution. The non-Christian "Christians" here who think otherwise should burn their bibles.

He is destroying America and you're worried about whether or not he's chosen a church? He is bad news for America and should careful measures should be taken to assure beyond any possibility that he NOT be elected for a 2nd term.

Obamanonics: Chains you can believe in.

"Stimulus" is foreplay: and you know what comes next.

Mr. Obama needs prayer. I'm in the DC area and there are numerous places of worship he can choose from. He can even walk across the park to St. John's as so many other Presidents have done. I feel he has no intention of choosing a church, so I have given up on that. I know people who say "I'm a Christian because I believe in God". The day of his epiphany is coming. Other presidents have worshipped at local churches sans the media/congregation show. That is not an excuse.
I wish he would say "I don't want to go."

We all should pray for President Obama, and his family.Only God can convict someone of sin.
The Bible says, in John 3:16~~"For GOD so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life".For God did not send his Son into the world to condeam the world, but that the world through Him could be saved.

In reference to someone saying they are a TRUE Christian, and believe in ABORTION, then I really do question their Salvation. I know we are NOT to judge. However, to accept Abortion~~the murder of little babies in the womb, and call yourself a Christian? I say~~~ think again~~~

I am not impressed. Obama choosing a church is a good political move - nothing more. I look for him to keep "visiting" different churches, he will keep us guessing. Notice, he does not like direct questions, he avoids the truth. Believers - the chuch that is - well, we are simply not impressed or moved by his choosing a church.

Do deny sin is to deny Christ. Obama denies a sin is a sin.

I'm saddened at reading so many judgmental comments.
I'm not American, but urge Americans to get behind your president, pray for him and support him. Isn't that what we are supposed to do for our leaders? And for ourselves, didn't Jesus teach us, 'Do not judge, lest you be judged ...'? Not only USA, but the world needs a prayed-for president, and a postively-prayed-for president at that.

I always thought that believing in in the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus Christ, and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord determines your salvation! Now if I am wrong please correct me! It still amazes me that even today, in a world that promotes freedom, and Justice for all stands in the seat of judgement when something or someone does say or do what u like! We are so qucik to point out the speck in someone elses eye, but refuses to look at the log in your own. Obama, just like all other politicians (even the ones that committ adultry with men and women) need our prayers. Because whether you voted for them or not, they are still in authority and the Word of God encourages us to pray for them. SO if you don't like what is going on, Pray! God changes people and people change things. So I urge you, fellow christian brothers and sisters to pray for one another, because this is the same reason that others do not want to accept the Christ we talk about, because they see US and not Christ. SO let us begin to walk worthy, and allow others to see us dwell in unity, praying for one another.

This man is evil to the core. Anyone who can't see that is totally blind. He stands for everything that is against Christian beliefs. He demonstrates that by his stance on butchering babies and rights for homosexuality. Would Jesus do this. You and I both know that He would not. And, no, you cannot be a Christian and believe it is OK to butcher babies. Anyone who believes that you can needs a good dose of salvation. That is what is wrong with this country now. Everything is OK. Nothing is ever really wrong! Shame on this country for putting him in office. That muslim is out to destroy.

There are plenty professing to be Christian but still chose to live by their own rules. This does NOT make one a Christian. That's wishful thinking on their part. Our President is one who says he is a Christian but obviously does not live by the Word of God or he would not be pushing the homosexual agenda and certainly not approve of abortions. If we live by God's word, it is the SIN that is unacceptable. choices. We were born with free will but will be accountable to God for the choices we make. I keep hearing that Christians are intolerant. Well, blame that on God because HE is not tolerant of sin. He loves us so much that He allowed His Son to be sacrificed for us. But, His word doesn't say...I love you regardless of what you do...so now that my Son died for you, you can keep on sinning. That's OK with me. You'll get to heaven no matter how you live your life..NO!!! Jesus said. repent and SIN NO MORE!
I believe Obama is trying to find a church that he feels will impress people. I'm sure after sitting under Rev. Wright, it is very difficult to find a church where he feels comfortable.
Unfortunately, what I see in this man is that he's trying to impress people. We do need to pray for him and his family. I pray daily that he will get on his knees and seek the Lord's guidance for ALL his decisions. People, we need to do that daily for him and our nation.

There are plenty professing to be Christian but still chose to live by their own rules. This does NOT make one a Christian. That's wishful thinking on their part. Our President is one who says he is a Christian but obviously does not live by the Word of God or he would not be pushing the homosexual agenda and certainly not approve of abortions. If we live by God's word, it is the SIN that is unacceptable. choices. We were born with free will but will be accountable to God for the choices we make. I keep hearing that Christians are intolerant. Well, blame that on God because HE is not tolerant of sin. He loves us so much that He allowed His Son to be sacrificed for us. But, His word doesn't say...I love you regardless of what you do...so now that my Son died for you, you can keep on sinning. That's OK with me. You'll get to heaven no matter how you live your life..NO!!! Jesus said. repent and SIN NO MORE!
I believe Obama is trying to find a church that he feels will impress people. I'm sure after sitting under Rev. Wright, it is very difficult to find a church where he feels comfortable.
Unfortunately, what I see in this man is that he's trying to impress people. We do need to pray for him and his family. I pray daily that he will get on his knees and seek the Lord's guidance for ALL his decisions. People, we need to do that daily for him and our nation.

There are many carnal Christians out there, even some of the most santimoneous Christians can be walking around with a carnal heart. It could be said that to deny your brother in Christ as a brother in Christ and refuse to pray for him when he sins is a sin--the sin of arrogance. So instead of putting President Obama down and sinning twice by 1. Disrespecting your leader and 2. Putting your brother in Christ down and aiding him in sin, why not just pray for him. Obama does all of what I used to do before I realized you can not live for the world and still be living for God and I loved God I just didn't know. Hopefully, he will get good strong ministry where he is at. If his heart is open, God will lead and guide him. If it is not, well, God will judge him not you and me.

With that he is the President. His job is to all the people in the nation. Not just to a select group, even the Christian community. He was put in the position so hopefully he can handle it by upholding God and respecting all he leads at the same time. I may not always agree with how he does it, but I suspect that is what he is trying to do. I won't uphold him in wrong, but as my leader I will respect him and as a fellow Christian I will keep him in prayer as my brother in Christ. If he proves to be false in his faith, I will pray for him as God has forgiven me my sins and while I was in the world someone prayed for me to be delivered. W

Would it be Christian to do any less??

Let's put these points together.
1. Obama can't be a Christian, because he is pro-abortion, and pro-gay.
2. Obama is probably not choosing a church because he's political.
3. If we're discussing issues here, it's probably because we are Christians.
4. Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God.
5. Romans is a book of the Bible.
6. Romans 13 says that governing authorities get their authority from God, and that authority is a 'minister of God'.
7. If we do not honor those to whom honor is due, we are disobeying the word of God.

Folks! Paul wrote those words WAY before Christians were in power. So here's my question: Do you think Paul was writing only to Christians whose rulers were also Christian? Or do you think this applies regardless of his religious persuasion?

Honor your president! And if Mr. Obama's positions grieve your heart (as they do mine), then take your petition to God, while you fulfill your duty as a Christian as outlined in Romans 13:1-7.

IF he's a Christian in a BIBLICAL term and can live for months without worshipping with fellow believers then something is wrong. I'm not an American. so I have no hang-ups with Southern Baptists theology. I moved from Europe to Canada. Within weeks I found a church, because I wanted to fellowship/worship and serve HIM. Guess he only looks for a church to show up Sunday for an hour, kind of public appearance?????????

On the one hand I'm glad to hear American Christians dialogue and even argue on current events. Jesus won every argument, because He didn't have to defend Himself, only speak the truth in love.

On the other hand, I think Anabaptists have it right with regard to separation of church and state. In our current post-modern perspective this looks like keeping faith personal and shut inside. This is not what the Bible directs us to do and neither did the church reformers.

As far as the president is concerned, this means thank God upon notice of his stance as a Christian husband, father and citizen. Remove the log from your own eye, be a law abiding citizen and pray for him as a leader. As a Christian pray for those who are in spiritual authority in his life, including Pastor Cash. If Pastor Cash wants to speak to Barack in his congregation regarding his work that's between those two men. I would hope that as a Pastor he would examine this family and seek to encourage them to live godly lives. The rest is up to God. Specifically if Barrak is listening to the whole counsel of Scripture the Holy Spirit may speak to him about sin and wrong judgments, just as He will all who claim the Lordship of Christ.

If you want to speak politically to the President, I suggest call or write your local congressional leader. That's what I intend to do.

From a Christ follower and independently voting proud American! Oh yeah, I'm black too.

I hope our President and his family have found a church home where they can worship and learn more about Amighty God!! Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. NO ONE comes to the Father unless he comes through Me." We must pray for each other to find that TRUTH!! It really does not matter WHERE we find it, the essential thing is that we find it!!

Good grief! What are you lot on about? Obama is a human being - so let him have his personal views. The Bible says we are to PRAY FOR our leaders - not just the ones who have the same views (or even theology) as ours. When I was a child I was taught that it was a sin for a Christian to smoke/drink/dance or go to the movies. Thankfully, the Spirit has freed me from such legalistic thinking. I have also learnt that it is God who changes a person's heart and that I am responsible only for how I live - not how others live. You Americans should look to Jesus as the example, not your President. He will remain human. After all, he is only a politician - and he follows in the line of fine, upstanding Christian leaders like Richard (expletive deleted) Nixon and Bill (I never did) Clinton. Ron (Australia)

Says who? What Christian beliefs? I'm a Christian and the president and I think alike in many areas. Now last time I checked God was the only one who determines who is or isn't evil or a Christian. Not you, not I, not Faux- I mean Fox news, not Focus on the Family. Hmmmmmm but I guess he's been rather busy of late - so he's turned that job over to you, has he?

I would advise you to stop with the hyperbole get on your knees and repent of your wickedness. It is a sin to hate and disrespect your leader like this. Read Paul's letters and Peter's as well. God is the one who appoints leaders. You have an issue take it up with Him. Ah but pardon me. I forgot - He's passed his divine ability to you...

butchering babies - hmmmmmmm how about buchering our young men and women and how about butchering other nations young men and women? Doesn't that matter to you?


===================================================
Kim wrote: This man is evil to the core. Anyone who can't see that is totally blind. He stands for everything that is against Christian beliefs..."

He demonstrates that by his stance on butchering babies and rights for homosexuality. Would Jesus do this. You and I both know that He would not. And, no, you cannot be a Christian and believe it is OK to butcher babies. Anyone who believes that you can needs a good dose of salvation. That is what is wrong with this country now. Everything is OK. Nothing is ever really wrong! Shame on this country for putting him in office. That muslim is out to destroy.

Christians can be very narrow-minded and legalistic. President Obama's statement that women should have the right to choose doesn't mean that he is pro-abortion. He thinks that people should be able to make their own choices and God thinks the same thing too hence the reason He gave us free-wills.

I believe christians were hoping that Obama would come in and declare America a godly nation- which it is not. But anything outside of letting people make their own choices is witchcraft and dictatorial. As one person said earlier we are commanded to honor our leaders and if you have a problem tak it up with God since He is the one that allowed Obama to be voted in.

What kind of witness are we portraying when we condemn and belittle others. And for those of you trying to spread the propoganda that Obama is a Muslim should give it up now. There are thousands of people praying for the President all over the world and no weapon formed against hi
shall prosper. Remember it's empty barrels that male the most noise.

Eh Marcie, where have you been???? That's so yesterday ;-).Don't you know that God has now given to some "Christians" the authority and ability to determine who is or isn't a Christian. You need to keep up Marcie :-) :-)

=====================================================
Marcie wrote"I always thought that believing in in the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus Christ, and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord determines your salvation! Now if I am wrong please correct me!..."

For those who love the word of God, "guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge...." 1 Timothy 6:20. "All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction and training in righteousness that the man of God my be thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16 "Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." 2 Timothy 2:25-26. "For He chose us in him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight." Ephesians 1:4. "Let the word of God dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom..." Colossians 3:16."I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Cor 1:19 "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified....so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power." 1 Cor 2:2,5. Friends, let us read and trust the Word of God, hide it in your hearts. The Word speaks clearly so we do not need to rely on our opinions - we have God's own thoughts.

Cliff

Where in the bible does it say though shall not commit abortion?

How about accepting the murder of the human being once it is outside of the womb? What's your view on that?

================================================
Cliff wrote: "...In reference to someone saying they are a TRUE Christian, and believe in ABORTION, then I really do question their Salvation. I know we are NOT to judge. However, to accept Abortion~~the murder of little babies in the womb, and call yourself a Christian? I say~~~ think again~~~"

and the fruits demonstrated here??? you know it will be quite interesting to see who makes it into heaven. we are all going to be surprised, i think.

where does the bible teach about abortion?

the bible says a man lying with a man is a sin.

but it also says that a woman should not speak in church so all of those female pastors are sinning. Just imagine that- women are preaching the word of God and yet by their very act they are sinning.

interesting huh? - hmmmmmmm I wonder if God is going to give them a pass?

=====================================================
I dopn't believe we are supposed to judge...but the bible tells us "that by your fruit ye shall know them"....so far from what I have seen as just a "fruit inspector"...we can't be for homoxesual policies and for abortion and line our views up with God's word...so I am sceptical that someone would call themselves "Christian" and be so diametrically oposssed to what it teaches

So what if he is? I think as long as he digs the country out of the mess george bush left, no one but you and a few other obviously damanged individuals will care
=====================================================
mp wrote:"Obama is a Muslim."

Hopefully, President Obama and Michelle find a permanent church while in Washington. While searching they should be looking for a bible teaching, bible believing, and bible practicing church. All churches do not teach the unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ. They teach wrong doctrines. May God bless the Obama family in their search.

Oh G.A.B. You are forgetting anti-christ.

I think you've got really serious issues. But I will pray that God remove that spirit from you.

=====================================================
G.a.b. wrote" Obama is a Communist..."

Hopefully, President Obama and Michelle find a permanent church while in Washington. While searching they should be looking for a bible teaching, bible believing, and bible practicing church. All churches do not teach the unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ. They teach wrong doctrines. May God bless the Obama family in their search.

Hopefully, President Obama and Michelle find a permanent church while in Washington. While searching they should be looking for a bible teaching, bible believing, and bible practicing church. All churches do not teach the unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ. They teach wrong doctrines. May God bless the Obama family in their search.

I pray for Barack Obama also because God commands us in His Word to do so, but is he a Christian? My dictionary gives this definition: Christian = one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriges...they are not teachings of Jesus Christ, but Barack Obama believes in them. Lev. 17: 22 - "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination to the Lord." I Cor.9-10 "...Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (I didn't write it!) Just what part of those verses do people NOT UNDERSTAND? To God, it doesn't matter diddily what any of us think, its all about what His Word says. His word is truth and if we aren't obedient to it we will NOT see His kingdom.

I gave my life to Jesus Christ during Billy Graham's crusade in Sydney in 1959. At 31 years of age I made a complete change from a sinful lif to a sicere Christian life!
Having said that, my wife and I pray for our prime minister in Australia, for Obama in the U.S.A. and anyn other leader in whatever country they are in God's world.
May the Lord bless you.

It apalls me how comfortable American "christians" are with deciding what the gospel is and is not based on popular opinion. Either God's word says something or it doesn't. End of argument. May I remind you all of how that same Word of God warns us that we are cursed if we put our trust in a man? or that those who desire friendship with the world are destined for eternal destruction? We cannot serve two masters: in this case God and popular opinion.

This is life and death on an eternal scale we are keeping hidden simply by "getting along." FOR SHAME! Wake up, you who slumber! We have every right to prayerfully and humbly criticise our leaders and hold them accountable to a higher standard!!! What do you think democracy is?

Going with the flow is not what we are instructed in scripture to do. A peacemaker does not allow evil to continue. It is not peace to turn a blind eye. We are most certainly told to judge the actions of others. How will they know they are wrong??? The warning against judging has to do with checking yourself before making a judgement. To avoid pointing out wrong is to display apathy and an acceptance of evil. The truth is painful for the world to hear, but that is what sets us apart. To the unrepentant dying, it is a stench; to those who long for life, it is a sweet aroma.

Following God's plan is not comfortable, nor is it popular, nor does it give everyone goosebumpy good feelings. If you feel comfortable and hunky-doree with what is popular today, perhaps you are not in the boat you thought you were in.

As an evangelical Christian, I have great sympathy for President Obama and his family. Everyone seems to have their own agenda that Obama is supposed to live up to. So let's dispose of one myth: America is not a Christian nation. It is a democratic nation with a huge variety of people. It is a nation of equality and liberty under the law. And Obama is the president of everyone! He is the president of Christians and Muslims alike; of gays and straights alike; you can add to the list ad infinitum! He is the chief enforcement officer for the civil rights of ALL people whether he personally agrees with their positions or not; or whether I agree with them or not. His family spends much of their weekends at Camp David as I understand it and there is a fine Navy Chaplain graduate of a Southern Baptist Seminary pastoring there. Obama's family is better off worshiping there without the gawking crowds. Lincoln never joined a church and neither did Ronald Reagan. And they did pretty good as presidents. The Obamas need our prayers, not our partisan religious bickerings. God will judge Obama in the end and He will judge you and me, too. Am I a conveyer of God's grace and love? Do I extend that to the Obama's in my heart as well?

read every comment in this article, and I am so saddened. Many of you so called Christians are arrogant, self-righteous and unforgiving. You do not know what is in the President's heart. You also do not know what he struggles with, to do right by all the people in our country and the entire world. I am a Christian and although I believe abortion and homosexuality are wrong, who am I to condemn people who do these sins. I have not walked in their shoes. And no one is capable of not sinning. Some of you Christians have done worse. Rather than condemning, I want to exemplify the love of Christ by being kind and loving. I want to be a little light in a dark world. I Thank God very day for the grace he shows me, and I try to give grace to others.

I am astonished atthe lack of Christianity I find in these blogs. What I read a lot of is self righteousness and thereduction ofthe gospels to judgemental legalism. There are many reasons one might disagree with Obama, but what I read here sounds like the pharisees complaints against Jesus. I am not saying Obama is Jesus - I am saying that those who can think only legalisticallly and not ethically are pharisees. The uniqueness of the Christian message is in its call to turn the other cheek and to respect everyone. That is a message legalistic pharisees can never accept. Jesus was killed by the pharisses for failing to uphold their legalistic morality.

With the exception of Fred, the rest of you need to REPENT AND TRULY BE "BORN AGAIN" OF THE WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT WITH THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES...

YOU SOUND LIKE WHITE WASHED TOMBS WHO NEED TO REALLY

LOOK IN THE MIRROR AT YOUR OWN SIN...

What on earth sin could pat be talking about? All of God's prophets were very direct in calling sin, sin. I think many of you are missing the point, of course no one is perfect and we all sin. What's at stake here are the lives of unborn children and the lives of homosexuals lost in their confusion. Leaders are held extremely accountable to God for their direction and leadership of their people, and their actions speak loudly of what's in their heart. And God's word is not subject to the opinions of man...how can discussing this be arrogant or unforgiving? It's simply discussing the truth. Obviously the truth is bothering some people. You can be a brighter light by following the truth.

I read most of the comments contained hrein. The word christian is thrown around very loosley and has become a generic word. A true believer in our Lord Jesus Christ would never endorse the things that many so call christians would and that goes for our president just as well.

It amazes me how the right wing conservatives (like most of the people on this blog) base a person's "Christianity" solely on their stance on Abortion. Is that your ONLY issue? What about the children who ARE born but do not receive help due to poverty and government corruption? You want a child to be born but don't want to help them when they get here! Obama IS NOT a muslim. He is a president who is more morally sound than the past 4 who have served in the same office. So is George W. a Christian because he is Pro Life? What about his LYING about WMD?? (You know that's one of the commandments too!)

Keep it real!

Great comments Jeff Foster! We are fellow Moody students. And I'm yeah I'm black too! AND PROUD!

Hey I got an idea... Maybe Obama should attend Ted Haggart's church ... oops I forgot he has some REAL character flaws. So is Ted a Christian???

Help me out guys!

It's not if you beleive in God. It's if you you have a persaonl relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior. Do you walk in the path that Jesus would have you walk? Do you do the things Jesus would do? Or are you walking in the path of the world? Anyone can say they believe in God but who will stand up and say " I have a personal realtionship with Jesus and want His will for my life". Not as many as you would think. Are you a light for Jesus??

Speaking of inspecting "fruit", I recall John's question: How can we claim to love the Invisible God if we do not love visible humanity? The hate rhetoric on this blog toward our President, people who are pro-choice, and people who are gay reminds me of Jesus' warning that we will give account for every idle word.

2 Cor.5:17 speaks of it all: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"
-and that includes all his preferences and attitudes in life.. . now make your quess regarding him? yourselves? Thank you. God bless.

By the way, Iran illustrates well why no religion should control government. As Revelation prophesies, any marriage between religion, politics, and economics is a sure recipe for corruption. How come no one is crying out against "usury" in these blogs??? How about the dehumanizing effects of the enormous interest rates that keep working people in bondage??? Oh yes, we need to pray lest the modern Church find herself in a Laodicean state, claiming vision when actually blind and leaving Jesus on the front porch knocking on the door to be welcomed in. Jesus said that what we do to the least of these, we do to Him ... and He included prison inmates! Has the American Church closed its doors to Jesus in closing its doors to people with different social views? Those gay people and those pro-choice folks who feel unwelcomed at our sacred gatherings and oppressed into silence and invisibility may be among those least of these Jesus mentioned. Yet the religious view seems "If we can't see them, maybe we don't have to love them?" That's what the rich man thought about Lazarus, one might imagine.

Is this really the Christianity Today blog? The majority of comments here lack Christian compassion, and too many push a specific agenda or theology as the "right" type of Christian faith. If you remember, Jesus reached out to all types of people, believers and non-believers alike. He prayed that we "might be one." Not as in one specific interpretation of Scripture, but rather that we would be one in Spirit. I see very little love shown in this blog, and a lot of people who have managed to re-create God in their own image (i.e., making themselves into gods). That goes against the first commandment. That said, we should pray for our president and all of our leaders. And rather than preach condemnation in this blog, let's try proclaiming the Gospel...which I believe is about compassion and care for one another.

Enough of your "pharisee" nonsense.The church and "it's people" need to remove the "LOG" in their eyes, so they can see clearly to remove the speck from their brother's eyes. Where is the church when we have so many celebrities in Hollywood who are lonely and sad because we are busy being "Churchy, Religious and Judgmental." Lets remember "Christ came to seek the LOST. Our members are busy living a life of pretense and when they are caught, we say it's o.k. as long as they have confessed their sin/s. May we not be guilty of being responsible for our brothers and sisters not wanting to have a personal relationship with the Lord.
Leave President Obama alone and let God be the one to judge him.

As a non-American I am saddened about the discussion among fellow-Christians in the US about their President. Romans tells us to pray for those who are in authority. For me, this man genuine looks for a place for him and his family to worship without the media hype. What are you doing to help him to find one? Who are you to decide if someone is a Christian or not? Only Jesus can. There were gay marriages and abortions before the current President in the US, when a so called "born-again" President was in office.

I am very impresssed about President Obama's move and quest for a spiritual place of worship.How many President around the World have made such a move???I have'nt heard of any.God is the only hope and the only one to relie on in times of need and he will surely guide and give wisdom to President Obama

President Obama has not declared himelf to be in favour of abortion; in fact quite the opposite. But that anyone, having said as much and while publicly announcing themselves as being 'Christian', which he also surely did, could at the same time stand to support this evil and openly murderous practice, as well as the perverts who would have us condone same sex union as a legitimate life style despite every moral, sociological, biological and most especially Biblical declaration to the contrary, defies every logic imaginable and places the president in the category of those most needing our prayers. Only God is able to move him to open his heart eyes, clear his mind to embrace truth and bend his will to champion the enactment of right. Our unclouded prayers alone can make that happen. Let us not rob God of the joy of doing what He longs to do, by failing to ask Him!

I am very impressed with the thoughtfulness of almost eeveryone's comments. I agree with the belief of many here that open support of gay marriage and abortion are not something a saved person would espouse.Here's a question for believers:wouldn't a saved person,even a president, openly confess Jesus Christ and promote God's Word the Bible at every opportunity? By that standard one can say whether he belongs to Christ or to the world. For example, if Obama were saved, would he openly equate the teachings of Christianity with that of Islam, as Obama did in his Cairo speech? Also, was Obama's praise of Gay pride worthy of a Christian. The Bible says that a person who approves of such sin is also sinning. Tom June 30

All "Christians" need to read 1 Corinthians 4:1-5, 1.Let a man regard us in this manner as servants of Christ and the stewards of the mysteries of God. 2.In this case, moreover it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3.But to me if it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4.For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5.Therefore do not go on passing judgement.before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motive of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

To my "Born Again" brothers and sisters in Christ.He died for our pass present and future sins. We have to grow in Christ Jesus. So I hope some of you see my point of view.

"If he were a Christian would he be pro abortion?"

Um. He's not "pro abortion", he is Pro Choice. He is pro respecting women to be fully responsible for their personally owned and privately operated bodies. He respect the right of a woman as a human being to consult with her physician, her family (if she desires) and her clergy (if she desires) to make a decision that is legally hers to make without outside interferance. Hope that helps.

Also.... what business is it of anyone else how someone chooses to worship? I'm afraid you've missed the point that real Christians are not required to disclose to anyone their personal relationship with God and Jesus. I get the feeling that you'd like to judge him on his choice in this area. I'd caution you to consult your good Book prior to making such judgments. As I understand it, you're not qualified to do so. And, in fact, there is but One qualified to make any judgements on any human being. At least that's the Christian Book I read.

Conservative Christianity has gone the way of Cain, to whom God continues to ask, "Where is they brother?"

Oops ... "Where is THY brother?"

What God has cleansed, call not common or unclean, pious Peter.

When we state that Obama supports abortion and that he’s pro-gay, we are not judging him, but simply restating what he has said on many occasions..He admits to the above, no doubt…Is he a follower of Christ? I sincerely doubt so…Just by listening to his speeches…He has no BASIC knowledge of the word of God, and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t know what will happen to him when he dies…On thing I’m pretty sure of, he is definitely a POLITICIAN. He will carefully pick and choose his words in order to be right with everyone…I’ll give him that…I find it interesting that he doesn’t believe the US is a Christian nation!...Then what are we?...Yes we are a pluralistic nation and we have the freedom to worship as we please, but it’s simply extreme PC to say that we are not a Christian nation (again, carefully choosing his words)…Doesn’t he know the history of our country?…We were founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and because of these beliefs we have been blessed above all the nations…You watch, his stance over Israel will little by little create friction between our countries (not to mention that he will most likely cave in and follow the line of the majority of the world that stands against Israel) and IMHO, this will be the beginning of the end of our nation..
Lastly, I just can’t fathom why would someone that claims to be a follower of Christ vote for a man that openly admits to be against basic biblical principles, as abortion and homosexuality…Just don’t get it!...I can understand the secular and Hellenistic, non believing American, but followers of Christ?...Don’t get it (but I really do).

I pretty much agree with your posting...Not with your first sentence however...Obama's position with abortion is the same one Poncious Pilate took when Christ was crucified...PP had the power and authority to prevent Christ from going to the cross (granted we all understand that this had to happen), yet he took the PC way out by simply washing his hands, claiming no responsibility...Obama is doing the same thing with abortion.

=====================================================
President Obama has not declared himelf to be in favour of abortion; in fact quite the opposite. But that anyone, having said as much and while publicly announcing themselves as being 'Christian', which he also surely did, could at the same time stand to support this evil and openly murderous practice, as well as the perverts who would have us condone same sex union as a legitimate life style despite every moral, sociological, biological and most especially Biblical declaration to the contrary, defies every logic imaginable and places the president in the category of those most needing our prayers. Only God is able to move him to open his heart eyes, clear his mind to embrace truth and bend his will to champion the enactment of right. Our unclouded prayers alone can make that happen. Let us not rob God of the joy of doing what He longs to do, by failing to ask Him!

Let us all trust God for the new thing He is doing and Keep praying for President Obama and his family.
We so-called Believers sometimes make wrong decisions and the All-forgiving God gives us another chance to make ammends. All will surely be well.

1Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- [2] for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

I don't see much evidence of thanksgiving for our president in these comments.

President Obama is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He is bent on destroying America. Last time I knew, when you terminate life, it is called murder. That is exactly what abortion is. God is very clear about how He is feels about abortion (murder) and homosexuality in the scriptures. I can only hope and pray that God will take the scales off of Obama's spiritual eyes and help him see God's truth. We do need to pray for Obama because he was created by God. However, America needs to wake up and stop being hoodwinked by this man and his cronies. We as a nation need to be vigilant. However, America has just as much responsibility. Perhaps God gave this nation the leader that we deserve. We need to return to II Chronicles 7:14.

I am not American and I don't live in the US. However, I belong to the universal body of Christ, the living cells that make the Church of Jesus Christ. I have been reading the lively debate on your President and the choosing of a church by him and his family. I have just a few points I'd like to make as a Christian to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

1. The Bible is our standard as it is the infallible Word of God. "Thy word O Lord is forever settled in heaven". God's commands stand forever, they cannot be altered. Those who love the Lord will love to follow His commands and thus be pleasing and acceptable to Him.

2. Having said that, are we to sit in judgment on Mr. Obama's beliefs or his motives? God is the Great Judge who searches the hearts of people. I am sure none of you know Mr. Obama as intimately as God knows him because He formed him and He alone knows what is going on "within" his (Mr. Obama's) heart.

3. As Christians we ought to condemn sin and not the sinner. Although Mr. Obama openly declared that America is not a Christian country; the Christian values that America once stood for have been trashed; doors have been opened for the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah to inhabit America. An alarm bell should ring for the Bible believer. Mr. Obama is not the thorn - satan is, the seducer, the liar, the destroyer. Just as he used the serpent to promote sin and destroy man, he is using the President to do his will.

4. If Mr. Obama's fruits (of the Spirit) are disagreeable and un-Christlike, then we ought to get on our knees and pray for divine guidance and God's grace and mercy upon him. We know that all Governments are appointed by God and we ought to pray for those set in authority. It was God's will for Mr. Obama to be appointed to the position of President so that God through him could accomplish His perfect will. God will glorify Himself no matter what. The Bible is full of accounts of Godless kings and rulers, they perished and their dominions with them, but God preserved His people. So He will do to you.

5. So Christian brothers and sisters, look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith and not to Mr. Obama, who has feet of clay. Judge not so that you be not judged likewise - for none of us is without sin. Fight the good fight and defeat satanic powers. Be ovecomers yourself and prayer warriors, and the satanic bastions taking over America will be destroyed - YOUR LIFE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO AMERICA - Mr. Obama notwithstanding.

I am with you in prayer.

As a British subject I am horrified at some of the comments here .about your President He deserves your respect as a democraticlly elected leader even if you cannot agree with his politics . .I can understand his need for a church where he can worship without being regarded as a peep show .God s Army has many regiments and in His eyes Iam sure a Charasmatic worship service has as much value as a Mass sung to the music of Mozart.. As a member of the Anglican Church I am made sad by some members of some Christian groups who regard everyone who does not share their views as not worth talking to. What is wrong with good honest debate ?

Father, forgive us for our sin, for wanting to be 'right' more than be righteous, for bickering like children more than wanting to get the message of the gospel out. Forgive us of our anger and arguing more than showing love and unity. Forgive us for spending more time criticizing and complaining than speaking the truth in love. Forgive us for being on the computer more than on our knees. Forgive us for speaking against leadership and bringing a curse on our land instead of holding them up in prayer, raising up Godly leadership and being prepared as the influencers as light and salt. Help us get the job done YOUR WAY. In Jesus' name. Amen

This is first time I felt compelled to read nurmerous comments on a blog commenting anything. Those of you who commented, "Let's all get down on our knees and pray for not only the President and for all our elected officials," were the most on target. God asks us NOT TO JUDGE, that is HIS job!!! Our job is to love our neighbor as ourselves. However many of us were brought up in dysfunctional homes where alcohol, drugs, divorce, sexual abuse any many of the other SINS OF THE FLESH were what we taught. So if we do not love ourselves and those closet to us, how could we possible love others. The route of the problem does not start with who is in office, the President or otherwise. It starts within our own hearts and our relationship with God. It is my prayer that we all look at ourselves and try to make one small step to getting our hearts ready for judgement day. Instead of looking elsewhere for the solution to the worlds problems, let us look at ourselves and ask God what HE thinks "I need to concentrate on to become more the person HE wants me to be." By doing this I think we would all be more in line with our Christian walk.

ONE THING IS FOR SURE,ALL AMERICANS HAVE ,HAD AND WILL FALL UNDER AND SUBCOME TO THE SIN OF GREED!!
AS A LOVER OF JESUS AND WHAT HE HAS DONE TO ME AND FOR ME AND BY LISTENING TO HIS SPIRIT TEACH ME IN OUR QUIET TIMES,LOOKING AROUND WITH SPIRITUAL EYES AND SPIRITUAL EARS ,WE CAN SEE THAT FOR ALONG TIME OUR COUNTRY HAS BEEN TURNING AWAY FROM THE BASIC TRUTHS,
THAT ONCE BROUGHT THIS LAND TO BE FOR US.JUST TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF OUR SOCOAL STUDY BOOKS, SCIENCE BOOKS,
AND AMERICAN HISTORY BOOKS IN OUR ELEMENTRY AND MIDDLE SCHOOLS.BEFORE OBAMA,WE HAVE HAD ATTACKS TO TAKE TEN COMMANDMENTS FROM COURT HOUSES,FREEDOM OF SPEECH THAT DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE GENERAL PUBLICS WAY OF WORSHIP AND THINKING.JUDGEMENT IS FALLING DOWN ON OUR COUNTRRY,911,GOD SAW IT COMING IN,YES WE HAVE FORGIVENESS FOR OUR SINS,HOWEVER THE BALK OF OUR COUNTRYS WAY OF DOING BUSINESS AND TAKING CARE OF EACH OTHER IN THE NAME OF JESUS HAS LEFT OUR COUNTRY,AND ONLY A FEW RREMAIN.WE CAN SEE THE HEDGE OF PROTECTION LIFTING SLOWLY,BECAUSE IT IS MOVING AWAY SLOWLY, IS EVIDENCE THAT GOD WILL ALWAYS LISTEN TO THOSE WHO HE KNOWS TO BE HIS.

Um, you people decide our President is "not a Christian" based on what you see as his views on abortion and gay marriage (of course, the ONLY issues right-thinking people should be concerned about). One, Obama is not for gay marriage.If anything, the gay community is somewhat disillusioned by his lack of support on various issues. Two, while I'm pro-life, I do feel that the President sincerely seeks to reduce abortions based on reducing teen pregnancy, promoting responsible fatherhood, etc. And honestly, I think the Obamas felt burned by the whole Jeremiah Wright experience and may be reluctant to fully commit to a church. I'm frankly more concerned that he have wise counselors advising him and praying with and for him.

Based on the logic of some of the posters here, what would you say about the spiritual condition of, oh, Mark Sanford? Ensign? Vitter? Just asking ...

No wonder the evangelical movement is marginalizing itself. You're even questioning this chaplain!

I thank God that we live in a nation where all these opinons and beliefs can be freely expressed. No presidential or governmental police come to arrest us, rape our women and children, burn our houses, imprison family members and perform other atrocities simply because we disagree with the president or governmental policy. A Land of Liberty where we can be Christians and pray out loud without fear and go to church as we choose and even discuss these issues openly. Thank you Lord!

Can one bear false witness and be a Christian?


Apparently so, considering the constant flow of the false claims that Obama is a Muslim, that he is pro-abortion (he is pro-choice which is DIFFERENT), that he want to "take our guns away", and that he is a terrorist and/or wants to destroy America that constantly come from "Conservative Christians".


If the Christian Right, with its apparent disdain and contempt for the poor and needy, it's tolerance of racism/anti-semitism is the standard for what it means to be a Christian than Obama should be GLAD not to be considered a Christian!!


That hedge of protection has been lifting for many years through the lies, distortions of truth, absence of protection for those who can't protect themselves (and that includes many, many who are "fully formed" and have not the means to just LIVE. If you think that probems have just started with Obama than you have been living in a shell. Read Isaiah 58 and see what God thinks of His people ignoring yokes of oppression that they can do something about and don't. And as evil as abortion and homosexuality are...they are not at the top of God's list of abominations...but pride is! The arrogance and greed of the past administration has set in motion what we are reaping now. It's amazing reading through what so many of you have written. I've been a "born again-spirit filled" follower of Christ for over 34 years....and thank the Lord that He hasn't given up on me but each day continues to transform me. I hope I can keep in mind His grace, mercy and patience with me when I feel irritated with someone else. As I read, I sense some of you "Christians" have forgotten this. It's easier to look at someone else and criticize than to confront that mirror and deal with our own sin....I know because this is something we all need to pay attention too....myself included. Obama has professed to be a Christian...he agrees with the essentials of our faith but he in many areas that evangelicals hold "holy" his opinions differ. But you know what...it's God who knows his heart....God knows Obama's regard for those "fully born" struggling with poverty, disease, and dire circumstances that only the government can help AND he is taking stands to bring relief to them. We Christians say it's not the governments business...sounds kind of like something one of Dicken's characters once said....but the church isn't there and can't do it all. Let's stop acting like Pharisees..instead of judging let's give grace and the benefit of a doubt, let's not rejoice in seeing Obama or anyone else we don't agree with fall. Let's start thinking and acting like Jesus....where is the fruit of His Spirit....do others see His love, peace, joy, gentleness, goodness, kindness and self control oozing out of our talk and walk. Let's stop bringing shame upon the name of Christ by what we do and say and instead if someone offends us...forgive and seek God's forgiveness for indulging in the flesh through pride, and a thoughtless, prayerless attitude. I hope we are all praying for the president and continue to pray for ourselves...that we would all continue to grow in our knowledge of Him and in doing so start looking like HIm. Because when it comes down to it...this life, this country and all we hold dear....our health, our loved ones and our precious opinions, will all pass away. We need to remember that we are heaven bound and start living like it!

People here that bear false witness about President Obama and spew the hate about him calling him "pro-abortion" (which his not) are not walking in the will of God. They are extremists like Al Qaeda is to the Islamic faith. They can call themselves "Christians" but at the end of the day, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will say, "Depart from me."

I am born-again, saved and sanctified through the blood of Christ and I support my President. I pray that those who do not now have reprobate minds repent and do the same.

I doubt the man is a Muslim. One the other hand, his claim to be a Christian seems a bit dubious, as he has proven to be a consummate politician who says anything to please his audience du jour, whether his assertions be true or not. I do believe, however, that he is consumed by his own ego...which will ultimately be his downfall.

I'm with you,mah. But why is it that when people speak the truth about either God's word, or speak the facts about someone, suddenly others twist it into "hate words" or call it being self-righteous or arrogant. Goodness, people, what do you do to conversations with your family? Satan is twisting your ears so that you don't hear plain facts. Stop going off on tangents and deal with the reality of what's being reported. Our president DOES support gay marriage, and IS allowing abortions - if you say he isn't, why is their so much legislature on behalf of both?? Anyway, only God can change him, and get our country back on track, so yes, let's pray for him. And - sorry Gregory, but if you think the Bible does not address these issues (Peterson Jul 1) you really need to READ it and get informed.

Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

"You shall know a tree by its fruit."

"They profess Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me."

"He who endures to the end shall be saved."

"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord, shall enter into heaven."

"Depart from Me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you!"

"Even the devil believes, and he trembles."

"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself."

Maybe some of us need to re-read the book Unchristian.

I believe one can be a Christian and personally believe in abortion and be for the homosexual lifestyle; HOWEVER, it means one is a very poorly Biblically-educated Christian. When one comes to understand God's truth as revealed in His Word, one cannot defend abortion or homosexual acts. We can love the sinner and speak the truth in love, however. That being said, I also believe scripture requires us to pray for our civil leaders.

I think this could be a wonderful Christian experience to see his messenger, Carey Cash, witnessing to our President. Kind of brings to mind Paul witnessing to Agrippa and Bernice. Our God is great!

Besides the Muslim root, I recall reading Obama's mother is Jewish, and that he was lived for a while at his Jewish granny's home. Also, that while living in Chicago, he used to befriend the Rebbe across the street. Does anyone know for certain?

Fianlly, is he really looking for a church, or is he still playing the game he has played all his life -make the others think he is what they are?

Anne,

What facts and what truth? Don’t you yet understand that you have neither? The very bible says that we currently see throw a glass darkly.

Do you care to give us a view into your life? So that we too may have a look at it and judge whether you are a Christian or not? Once we’ve done that and if we determine that you’ve passed muster then you are free to judge…
Do you know why God reserves judgment for himself – because He’s the only one with perfect knowledge. Do you have it? I know I don’t.

You constantly do the one thing Christ says not to do, and yet you do it. Aren’t you scared about your turn coming? The examples of the governor of S.C Mark Sandford and Larry Craig and Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggert aren’t they enough for you?

Why do you and so many others think that there are only two defining characteristics of being a Christian i.e – you must be against abortion and you must be against same sex couplings. It seems that it doesn’t matter how much you rape, lie, steal, cheat and kill. As long as you are against those two all is well with your soul. Do you think God has his eyes closed to the rest?

My conversations with my family are not taken up with talk about whether a person is a Christian or not. That’s strictly God’s purview. We rarely talk about people –unless it’s our own family members. We discuss ideas and how we can do better. And interesting things that we may have found in a book or the bible. Of late the debates have been centering on the bible.

You know that old adage- only small minds talk about people…

===================================================

Anne wrote: “I'm with you,mah. But why is it that when people speak the truth about either God's word, or speak the facts about someone, suddenly others twist it into "hate words" or call it being self-righteous or arrogant.”

I’m mindful at how many of you strongly went along with the belief that George Bush Jr is Christian and the Republican party is a Christian organization.

Ah but I forget sometimes that you only need to be against abortion and same sex couplings to be a Christian.
====================================================
halfnorsk: "I doubt the man is a Muslim. One the other hand, his claim to be a Christian seems..."

How do you know he’s not on his knees asking for God’s guidance ? How do you know that the path he is trying to chart that he’s not being led by God to chart?
After all according to the bible God did appoint him to be the leader of us. Are you saying God made a mistake then?

Are you saying that George Bush did not live by his own rules? Are you saying that the path he led this country down, that it came about from him being on his knees? ===================================================

Barbara wrote“There are plenty professing to be Christian but still chose to live by their own rules. This does NOT make one a Christian….Unfortunately, what I see in this man is that he's trying to impress people. We do need to pray for him and his family. I pray daily that he will get on his knees and seek the Lord's guidance for ALL his decisions. People, we need to do that daily for him and our nation.”

Victoria, Anne, Barbara, halfnorsk

I'm curious about something...

In which state do you live?

Hmmmmmm You do realize that over the last 4 years that we had a Christian professing president who sent this country to 2 wars. Wars that involved innocent people losing their lives!!!!!! You do realize this don’t you? You do realize that a love for life must be carried thru whether it is inside or outside the womb don’t you? You do realize that we had a self professing Christian as a president who refused to provide poor children with adequate health care. You do know what Jesus said about touching the little ones don’t you. You do realize that we have the NRA that is firmly entrenched with the “party of god”. Do you own a gun?

President Obama talks about a woman having choices. Absolutely firmly supports his views on this. What is wrong with that?

Can I suggest that we both pray that God removes the scales from our own eyes before we start dealing with the scales on other peoples’ eyes.

II Chronicles 7:14 – well I would say that God heard our prayers and He has started to do exactly that- i.e. heal the land. First, he had to get rid of the Republicans, their cronies and their wickedness. See He’s just exposed Mark Sanford the governor of S.C. and Mr. Vitter...

Believe it – don’t mess with God!
===================================================
Victoria: "President Obama is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He is bent on destroying America. Last time I knew, when you terminate life, it is called murder. That is exactly what abortion is. God is very clear about how He is feels about abortion (murder) and homosexuality in the scriptures. I can only hope and pray that God will take the scales off of Obama's spiritual eyes and help him see God's truth. We do need to pray for Obama because he was created by God. However, America needs to wake up and stop being hoodwinked by this man and his cronies. We as a nation need to be vigilant. However, America has just as much responsibility. Perhaps God gave this nation the leader that we deserve. We need to return to II Chronicles 7:14.

Nancie, thank you for your post. I'm humbled and thankful to have read it. It speaks to me because I found myself getting upset by some of the posts I've read here. Your post has helped me to regain some balance.

Thanks once again


=====================================================
Nancie Carrier wrote : "That hedge of protection has been lifting for many years through the lies, distortions of truth, absence of protection for those who can't protect themselves (and that includes many, many who are "fully formed" ..."

Justin, I live in one of the most liberal states in the USA - New York - with one of the most dysfunctional and embarrassing state governments. That includes Democrats and Republicans. Let's set the record straight. The Republicans ARE NOT the Christian party. If anyone thinks that they are, then they are sorely misguided. Furthermore, Mark Sanford is getting his just reward. What he did was despicable. It appears that you believe the Republicans had to removed because they are so wicked. Then I guess Bill Clinton was a saint? Oh yes, and Ted Kennedy is a saint as well because he is a Democrat. In Romans 3:23 it says that "for ALL (that includes myself) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Just because I disagree with my president does not mean that I don't care about His soul. I do pray for Pres. Obama just like I have prayed for past presidents regardless of their political party. Being president of the US is one of most difficult jobs in the world. But, I am not going to stop speaking out against sin. Oh, by the way, I DON'T own a gun. I choose not to, but people have a RIGHT to own one if they so choose. Unfortunately, there are too many people that do own a gun that should not own one.

Pres. Obama needs a great deal of prayer as he's making many quick decisions that will greatly diminish the great democracy the US has been. Except for God's strong hand on America, we're going to see some very terrible days ahead. America is the last Christian nation on the earth and Obama is bent on changing our country in ways not honoring to the Lord Jesus Christ. Pray for Obama, pray for America, God forgive our sins.

Ninure, You are bearing false witness in saying that all Conservative Christians do not care about the poor and are racist/anti-semitic. I am a Christian that does care for the poor and I am very pro-Israel. I have many friends from all races and creeds.I attend a very mixed church including whites (including Germans, Italians, Irish, Russians,etc.) blacks, hispanics,native americans, Indians, Pakistanis, and even Messianic Jews as well as people with special needs including those with autism and deaf people. You are not going to find a church that is more diverse. Our church is a place for all people and all nations. Our church has a heart for outreach to our community. We have a food pantry to help those who are less fortunate just to name one of many ministries in our church to help meet the needs of those who are suffering. Just because you may have a disagreement with one, two, or a few people who claim to be Conservative Christians, you automatically lump all Conservative Christians into that category. That is the epitomy of prejudice. It seems to be that Conservative Christians have no right to express their viewpoint but that only left wing liberals should be able to do so. Like I said earlier to Justin, just because I disagree with President Obama does not mean that I hate the man. I do not hate him. God created him just like He created the rest of us. I have diagreemants with my husband sometimes. Does that mean I hate my husband? If I hated my husband, then I would not have married him. Make sure you take care not to lump all people into a certain category just because you have had a bad experience with one or two.

We are all human and bound to make mistakes and commit sins - it applies to even our leaders, including Obama and yes, George W Bush. But in my opinion as a Christian and if I understand the bible correctly, abortion is a grave sin, and homosexuality is a mortal sin (sin leading to death). Although Obama himself does not commit such sins (which is why he probably still considers himself a Christian), he is still "guilty" by association - not because he befriends people who do it, but because he respects and in providing funding he is actually facilitating and promoting their actions, or in Obama's words "choices". Is this not similar to respecting a murderer's choice to commit murder?

We are not supposed to judge and condemn another person, lest HATE them, because we are also judged. But this does not mean we cannot objectively voice God's commands about what HE detests as sinful acts of grave and mortal stature. I think as Christians we have a duty to speak out against their wrong acts (since Obama profess himself to be Christian), but not condemn them as a person since all have fallen short of HIS grace. Obama is leader of the US, and he deserves prayers and support in issues which he has dealt with correctly. But on the issue of abortion and homosexuality, as a" Christian" Obama has failed.

Victoria, Thank you for letting me know where you live. I live in NYC myself

I never said the Republican party was a Christian party, I actually said they are the ‘party of god”. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t this one of their mantras? Isn’t this what so many evangelical Christians hold to? If they are not a Christian party, as you claim, then why has the Christian movement and so many people who call themselves Christians prostituted themselves to this one political party? Is it because they give lip service of being against the “2 things that make you a christian i.e abortion and same sex couplings?”

When I look at the teachings of Jesus and compare them to the ideology of the Republicans and Democrats – it is clear that the Republicans are more wicked and more corrupt than the Democrats. So yes it is my belief that the Lord had to remove them.
And no, Clinton wasn’t a saint, by any means but he also did not take the moral high ground and judged people for doing things he himself was doing. That’s known as hypocrisy and the Lord had quite a bit to say about that! From what I recall he was an adulterer and a liar.
Ronald Reagan, McCain and Clinton were all adulterers and we know what will happen to those

It’s interesting that you think people should have the right to own an instrument if they choose to, that serves one purpose only – to harm and kill.

Yet you think that a woman should not have the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy if she chooses to. Reduced to its barest – both involve taking of a live.

I don’t want you to stop speaking out against sin. As Christians we are supposed to do that. Let us however speak out against all sins no matter how inconvenient and not just the ones we that have been cynically put forward by a political machine for their evil purpose.

=============================================
Victoria: ‘Justin, I live in one of the most liberal states in the USA - New York - with one of the most dysfunctional and embarrassing state governments. That includes Democrats and Republicans. Let's set the record straight. The Republicans ARE NOT the Christian party. If anyone thinks that they are, then they are sorely misguided. Furthermore, Mark Sanford is getting his just reward. What he did was despicable. It appears that you believe the Republicans had to removed because they are so wicked. Then I guess Bill Clinton was a saint? Oh yes, and Ted Kennedy is a saint as well because he is a Democrat. In Romans 3:23 it says that "for ALL (that includes myself) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Just because I disagree with my president does not mean that I don't care about His soul. I do pray for Pres. Obama just like I have prayed for past presidents regardless of their political party. Being president of the US is one of most difficult jobs in the world. But, I am not going to stop speaking out against sin. Oh, by the way, I DON'T own a gun. I choose not to, but people have a RIGHT to own one if they so choose. Unfortunately, there are too many people that do own a gun that should not own one.

@YF

Where does the bible speak about abortion?

===================================================
YF Loke: "We are all human and bound to make mistakes and commit sins - it applies to even our leaders, including Obama and yes, George W Bush. But in my opinion as a Christian and if I understand the bible correctly, abortion is a grave sin,..."

For all of you who are of the opinion that abortion and same sex unions are wrong,I have a question for you.

Just suppose within the next 5-10 years should the Lord tarry and our science technology continues to develop whereby you can determine in the womb whether or not the child will be homosexual.

What would you do?

Would you abort?
Would you continue to full term?

Wow, I can't even read this any more. I stopped a couple of pages ago. I don't want to judge but Scripture/ God does in fact layed out principles for us. It isn't ok for "Christian's" to rape. I know this might seem contraversial to some but.... It's also not ok to steal, again that might be going against the flow, because many of you believe it IS ok to steal as long as it is from the evil rich that have worked hard for the money, but they are rich so as Christians we should HATE them in Jesus name. I'm done. This web site is weak. I am taking it off my e-mail list. I will pray for you, but to tell me that I can't look at fruit and say that it is rotten is more than I can handle. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be careful. I hope and pray that God will remove your blindness to His Glory. Go ahead and judge me as being judgemental. We all deserve to go to hell but by grace God has chosen to save some of us. I don't deserve it but He has, in his grace, chosen to open my eyes up to His Glory. Please take a step back and look at Jesus and realize that He didn't come to save you for earthly reasons but rather because God wants us to Glorify Him by enjoying Him forever. This discussion is so petty. Please go to desiringGod.org and see how to truly be happy and not waste your life. God bless you, Mark

Katie:

Oh please!!!!! Give it a rest! The matter has been settled long ago that President Obama is a Christian and not a Muslim! To continue along that train of thought says something about you. (I won't bother to list the options of things that might be implied about you.

As for those of you who accuse the Obamas of just not wanting to attend church; seriously, if you were the first of your race to achieve this high office and every move you make is scrutinized and photographed to be later published and discussed, just how much do you think you could go to a public place of worship and really be left alone to do just that -- worship? If the Obamas were to ask to be left alone, they would be judged and talked about. Now, they want to be in an environment at Camp David where people aren't "star struck." Give them a break!

I believe that as Christians, our responsibility to our president (whomever it may be) is to pray for him and his family. I pray that God will meet their spiritual needs. How they choose and God does that is not my business!

I am amazed at all of the sane comments on this thread hiding behind racism and the Right Wing Media trope that Obama is either a godless communist or a Muslim and can't be a real Christian. And so far on this thread nobody has yet called him the AntiChrist but this notion is enormous on the web.

So for all you sane folks I will tell you the inside scoop.

1) Obama now controls the secret Black Helicopters and their teams of commandos that do his bidding.

2) If your criticism of Obama is righteous (even as an anonymous post on the web) then the government can track you down and you can expect a black chopper visit in the middle of the night, where you will be injected with Thorazine and you won't be able to remember anything.

3) You will be interned in a FEMA re-education camp where you will be brainwashed (say forcing you to listen to MSNBC) and they won't let you out until you swear on a Koran your love for Obama.

I am now setting up a web-site so that sane people who agree with me can give me money so I can continue telling my truth.

Justin about abortion in the bible. Thanks for asking.

The bible does not say anything about abortion in the literal sense, just as it does not mention about drugs-taking, or viewing pornographic websites - because such stuff were not invented yet or not widely practiced...

But we do know what the right answer is, if you regard living fetus is life, and therefore sacred, and we are not at liberty to terminate what God himself has created, even our own life. Exodus 20, 6th Commandment "Thou shall not kill". Job 12:10 - "And in whose hands are the life of all living thing, and breath of all humanity".

I suppose some people think the fetus is not life, and perhaps some politicians don't care since the fetus has no voting rights, and therefore have no problem to reduce abortion to a matter of trivial and "personal" choice of the pregnant individual.

But the bible tells us that unborn fetus is indeed life.
a) Luke 1:39~40: The babe in Elizabeth leaped when she was greeted by Mary.
(b) Gen 25:22 "The children struggled within her..."

At the very early stage of pregnancy, it is medically confirmed from ultra-sound scans by the heartbeat of the fetus, as you can't see anything else at first few weeks. Existence of heartbeat is proof of life.

Oh Mark, stealing is wrong, but don’t you think it is better to steal from the evil rich than the good poor- or from the evil poor as a matter of fact?

The fact that you bring up earthly riches is an indication where your heart is, I would say. Remember Jesus’ thoughts on rich people getting into heaven. Remember Jesus’ words on storing up earthly treasures. Remember other biblical teachings about the rich and their eventual end. Be very careful – you are on a very dangerous seductive path.

The principle God laid out is that he enriches us so that we can be a blessing to others. Not so that we can live high of the hog
====================================================
Mark: “Wow, I can't even read this any more. I stopped a couple of pages ago. I don't want to judge but Scripture/ God does in fact layed out principles for us….”

I am not American but a christian.Don't forget that the Church and so many christians prayed to God goe the elections.God chose Obama and an Afro American.Stop judging like that.Bush was an airballoon with little to no positive impact on the world.Look how you, Americans suffer from Bush his self seeking ruling.He made things worse.Obama is very carefull to chose a church he can worship.With countless of denominations and legalistic houses of God, who wouldn't?The Church of Christ need to be born again, and this time in true love as Jesus wanted us to love.I have seen the worst in christians.Love and commitment to one another is what the Gospel talks about.Have some respect for Obama's personal relationship to God.

YF,
I regard all life as precious – not only the unborn, but the born as well. It seems to me however that people who rant and rave about abortion are only interested in human life up until the child is born. Once it exits the womb – well that’s it. I just find this hard to understand. IMO it is a morally and ethically bankrupt view and totally not Christlike.

The president talks about having choices available to women. He never said that he is in favor of abortions. Are you telling me that if your wife’s life was in danger due to a pregnancy that you would not think about terminating the pregnancy and saving your wife?

The president also by passing health care legislation makes is now possible for poor children to be able to get adequate health care. How is this not a Christian thing to do?

So you admit the bible does not say anything about abortion. And if it does not say anything about these other things who then therefore determines that they are wrong? No I totally disagree with you, we do not know what the right answer is. We do not have perfect knowledge; the bible says we see thru a glass darkly. ? As an e.g do you know that in some countries, Christians there think it is a sin to go to the cinema? Do we in America think this is so?

That is why the bible says we (each of us) should work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. That’s why judging and judgment is up to God. Since absolutely none of us live a perfect life. Imagine if you will, those of us who are saying that they can say when a person is sinning or not- if we can get a view of their life as they go about their daily business... What would we see? Would we see a perfect life or would we tell them to shut up that they are just as much a sinner as anyone else?
If we are not at liberty to terminate life – because God created it and it is his purview then we need to stop what is going on in Afghanistan and Iraq and we need to get guns etc out of individual hands.

I will have to disagree with you about the early stages of a pregnancy. I cannot call a zygote a human being.

Bottomline – same sex issues and abortion are not the only 2 issues that determine whether or not a person is a Christian. It is time we stop with this nonsense and look at the bigger picture! There’s a whole world out there that needs saving, that needs to hear the GoodNews!

I don't see the point of Obama looking for a church! Maybe it would be a good thing for his family but it would be useless for him. He's just another poser Christian. If he even opened a bible he'd see the error of his ways. There are hundreds of thousands of words in the bible but the word Abomination (or variations thereof) only occurs about 127 times. An abomination is a very serious sin (note the Anti-Christ is called an abomination, see Revelations). Men sleeping with men and women sleeping with women are known as one of those abominable acts. In other words a BIG NO-NO! Obama just had a celebration at the Whitehouse for such behavior. It’s one thing to commit an abomination; it’s more serious to endorse abominable behavior. Thirty years ago we would have been flabbergasted by such gay behavior but over the years we have been worn down by the images of such behavior. NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) has already been defended by the ACLU for freedom of speech rights in 2000. This how it all starts! What will be our morals in the next thirty years?
As far as pro-life I think Christ made it clear about how he felt about those who would hurt a child. Matthew 18:6 (NASB) says, "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea". One could answer it's not really a baby it's a fetus but this tiny things heart begins beating at five weeks after conception (I'm pretty sure that's within the first trimester). This at least qualifies as an animal from a biological standpoint. Maybe PETA would care more about this issue than those who are Pro-Choice.
The bottom line in all this is the Bible is our moral compass. As humans we rationalize anything we want to do. Stick to Gods word and we’ll be fine. It’s one thing to commit abominable sins it’s a more serious sin to endorse such behavior. The good news is if we admit our wrongs and ask for forgiveness through the Lord Jesus Christ all is wiped clean and it was like it never happened. The Lord also said pray for our enemies and so I will as well as the leadership for this country.

Hi Justin, thanks for your points. But I think you've misunderstood my message.

1) I'm not disqualifying Obama from being a Christian just because of his views on and support for abortion and homosexuality. Neither can one disqualify George W Bush for all his "evil acts" (as do those who hate him). No human-being has that authority. God alone judges ALL our deeds in our entire lifetime, and He alone decides whom to be saved, and we are all saved by His grace if He chooses it to be.

2) I'm referring to issues of abortion (in actuality it is equivalent to taking of innocent and defenseless life), and homosexuality. In the context of the bible as Christians, we are not allowed to practice such acts, and we also do not condone, facilitate and encourage them. 1 John 2:3 and 4 - "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"...John further went on to say we should not even "greet" these people - meaning not associate with their acts and deeds.

3)As to fetus is a life, I'm sorry you don't see it that way. I suppose this is a fundamental view you're holding, and that's why you're OK with abortion.

4)In the bible, it is clear that God allows taking of life under circumstances of self-defense. Invading another country is usually not. I'm saying this because God (not George W Bush) did command Israelites to conquer lands of Canaan.....but I am not discussing about America invading Iraq or disagreeing with you about what you've said in this regard. Answering your question - Saving the endangered mother's life over the unborn child is allowable, because this is self-preservation (self-defense). Similarly that's why it's OK for the police to make the choice to shoot the armed robber in order to save innocent lives (that's if there are no better alternatives)...

5) You've said well that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But since we are Christians, our moral guide and standard is set by God (the bible), not according to how we human rationalize our actions. I just want to reiterate what the bible says about abortion (taking of innocent life) and homosexuality for these are two issues pertaining to morality and salvation. I hope you'll be persuaded to view abortion (not under the circumstances of self-defense) as a sinful act. But that is up to you to decide.

6) Obama is no more or less a human in need of spiritual salvation, as do all of us. I do hope that on the issues of abortion (= taking of innocent life) and same-sex marriage (= homosexuality), he'll be able to change his views, for he professed himself a Christian.

Hello Justin, you posed me a question which i left out my answer : Going to the movies (as with watching TV, and surfing the web) are all fine. The issue to address is the contents.

Romans 1:24 "Therefore, God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them." 1:26 and 27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, MEN WITH MEN committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error." The Bible does not have to use the actual word 'homosexuality' to know that this passage of scripture is blatantly referring to homosexuality.

Genesis 19 talks about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Again the word 'homosexuality' is not used but it is referred to in this passage. Homosexuality was one of many reasons why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

In Hebrews it says that "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever." If God believed homosexuality was a sin in the Old Testament then He must feel that way today. God is not fickle; God does not change.

In Genesis 1:27,28 it says, "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; MALE AND FEMALE He created them. And God blessed them; and God said to them,'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth,...'

Genesis 2:18 "Then the Lord God said,'It is not good for the man to be alone, I will make him a helper suitable for him." Was this another man? No, it was a woman.

Homosexuality is not physiologically natural. If it was, why can't two men propagate a baby together or two women make a baby together?

It was Adam and Eve in the garden together, not Adam and 'Harry' or Eve and 'Kathy.'

It seems that those 'Christians' who are defending homosexuality are PROBABLY homosexuals themselves who are looking for God and other Christians to validate their lifestyle. God loves you very much but does not condone your lifestyle.

I do not believe that people are born homosexual. It is a choice that is made. It is referred to as an alternative lifestyle. Alternative means choice. I have read no research that supports that people are born gay.

While I wish Obama would pick a church to worship at, I can imagine why he is taking his time. Does he pick a predominantly white church, a predominantly black church, a conservative one, a liberal one? Whatever church he designates will face unbelievable scrutiny because of his past with Jerimiah Wright.

As to the comments questioning whether he can be a Christian because of his pro-choice stance...er, don't we have Christians who commit adultery, lie, cheat, steal, slander, etc? This does not necessarily make them not Christians; it just makes them "bad Christians," as CS Lewis said. Who is to say one is worse than other. Paul indicated that gossip and homosexuality were equally abhorrent to the Lord.(Rom 1:26- 30).

Who care if he has chosen a church. This is a democracy not a theocracy.

Given the proponderance of Church-hopping among Evangelicals these days, it seems the Obama family is fitting right in with the current trend. Some families are even listed in the church directory of multiple assemblies at the same time. Others do mainline, liturgical church in the A.M., and contemporary, Evangelical worship in the P.M.

So I don't see why this is news.

Please people...do a study on what "do not judge" means and learn the difference between that and using the knowledge and power of the Holy Spirit to discern.
Please study Colossians once more.
Please realize that "abortion", "homosexuality", and many other words are not used in the Bible. The Trinity isn't used and the Rapture isn't used.
Please continue in the Word and in prayer. Ask the Holy Spirit for the answers to your questions and stay in the Word. Judging is a VITAL part of the Christian Life. Ask God and look at the HOLY CHARACTER OF GOD.
Ps. 51, Is 42:23-25, Is. 43:4-13, Proverbs 24:11-12, Luke 1:26-27, Ps 100, Eph. 1:4, Ps 139: 13-16, Is 44:24-26, Is. 46:3-4, Jer. 1:5, Proverbs 8:22, Eccl. 11:5, Is 48, Deut. 30:11, Gal. 1:15, Matt 18:5, Proverbs 17:6, Mark 10:14-16, Luke 18:16, Romans 8:6 Ps. 94:21, Ps. 119:73, Ps. 78:6-7, Ps. 22:9-10, Ps 121. 8 ...abortion or not? You can also read and srudy about unnatural sexual pratices. Yes, apostle Paul especially spoke to these issues and not in a legalistic way! STUDY WHAT legaliam IS! PAULS LETTERS WERE TO CHRISTIANS! WHY WOULD HE WRITE THE LETTERS AND ESPECIALLY INCLUDE SEXUAL SINS OF ALL KINDS? Paul was NOT a legalist so study instead of making excuses for sinful behaviors which keep one from fulfilling what God has intended for that person. Being 'saved' or calling yourself a Christian is just the beginning of Life in Christ. Why would one want to trample on the Christ who took your sins on Himself to give me life? I do not want to do that. How can I love HIM? Be Holy...grow in faith. Grow in Godliness. God Bless All believers.

PS. As for the article about the President deciding on a church...I am happy that he does. I do not know who others are there to fellowship with at Camp David, or how much of a community life they can have. Church attendance doesn't grow a Christian. I pray that he will hunger and thirst for more and more of the Word of God and give himself over to Christ the moment he awakens and throughout each day. He has to do what it takes to be in relationship with Christ. Do we? Let's pray that he and all who say they are a Christian, will begin. Let us hope he does teach his family who God is from God's word.

So then Az if being gay is a choice then being straight is also a choice. So tell me when did you choose to be straight?

Romans 1:24 that you quoted starts with the word THEREFORE. Which in the English language means that a condition comes before it. Do you care to go back and quote what Romans 1:23 says

I do not think homosexuality had anything to do with Sodom and Gomorrah- If the men of the city who came to Lots house were gay why would Lot offer his daughters? That would have been pointless- wouldn’t it? Now if Lot had offered his sons perhaps a case could be made…

If God is the same yesterday to day and forever then there are issues you have not thought about or have deliberately chosen to ignore: here are a few for you:
1.Slavery is an OK thing- tell that to black people. And if they disagree you only have to tell them the bible says so and we are to follow the bible.

2.Adultery is condemned just as much as same sex couplings. Do you recall the story of Abraham and Sarah and Hagar the servant?

3.Marrying your fathers daughter is an abomination – what do you think Sarah was to Abraham?

4.Having sex with your brother and sister is an abomination – who do you think Cain and Seth the children of Adam and Eve had sex with to start the human race?

5.A woman speaking in church is a detestable thing – So all those women preachers are sinning!

6.God used to have the Israelites kill men, women and CHILDREN. So what is this thing about abortion being an issue again.

7.If God created man and woman in His own image – then God also has some feminine aspects.

8.Have you forgotten the commandment of an eye for an eye?

I won’t even start with all the other though shall nots in the Old Testament.

But here is what I don’t understand homosexual activists will claim that gay people make up 10% of the population. Extreme right wing evangelical Christians will claim that gay people only make up less than 5% of the population. With the USA population being 300 million; there are only 15-30 million gay people at most who “choose” (your words), to be homosexual.

Why do such a comparatively small number of people engender so much effort and chest thumping and angst? Aren’t there more people committing the other sins- like the ones listed right along side same sex couplings verses?

Either way, I personally think that either Paul had an issue with sex or the people who translated the bible did...

How come Jesus didn't have an issue with it? And since Jesus is the one who died for me - I hope you don't mind if I follow him

Gluttony is also a sin. Following the arguments of some of the most outraged above, it follows that no glutton can be a Christian. So how many overweight pastors & parishioners does that rule out of the fold?

Are you sure you want to return to the bible days.

OK then let’s go because from what I can see by the time we are done there will be hardly anyone left in America

James 4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Lev 20:10 If a man commits adultery… both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

So there goes Mark Sandford, Reagan, McCain. Clinton, Vitter to name a few. At an over 50% divorce rate I would conservatively estimate that over a 1/3 of the US population would be put to death that’s about 90-100 million people.

Same sex couplings - that's at least another 15-30 Million

Lev 20:9 - "'If anyone dishonors his father or mother, he must be put to death.” Want to guess how many more will have to be killed?

Do not bear false witness – people who profess to be chritians are quite good at this one – hmmmmm perhaps God would give a pass?!?!?!.
Do not lie, cheat and steal- what was the penalty for these things? Coz By my estimation all of Wall Street and most business would be affected
Do not kill – I know if you kill you are supposed to be killed – well with the current murder rate in the USA… .

Who does that leave now? Probably only some children and lots of wild life.

Yes, Christ talked about children. However the children he referred to were the ones already out of the womb. And if you are going to base your argument on what Christ talked or did not talk about – well he didn’t say anything about same sex couplings or about abortion. But he did have quite a bit to say about adultery, hypocrisy and judging people.

And while we are at it – how dare black people ask for freedom from slavery??? and how dare abolotionist worked to free them. Slavery is ok per the bible. They are an ungrateful lot! They should have endured it and be content with their lot! Should we get the chains back out or give them a pass?
===================================================
Dan wrote: "I don't see the point of Obama looking for a church! Maybe it would be a good thing for his family but it would be useless for him. He's just another poser Christian. If he even opened a bible he'd see the error of his ways....
The bottom line in all this is the Bible is our moral compass. As humans we rationalize anything we want to do. Stick to Gods word and we’ll be fine..."

Justin, It sounds like you are an angry black man. I don't agree with slavery and it was wrong. The bottom line is- is that you are trying validate your sinful lifestyle.

Wow! I'm glad that I am strong enough in my spirit man not to allow myself to be grieved by the hateful, spurious, short-sided, slanderous, mean-tempered attitudes expressed by so many who profess to be part of the body of Christ. And how does this last individual come up with the idea that Justin is an angry black man? Do only black people use analogies centered around racism? And what in his stated views leads you to believe that he is following a sinful lifestyle. To make damning inferences about people based on limited information is judgmental - not discerning. Accusations without foundation of fact are lies! Why must we be disagreeable when we disagree? If we spent half the enrgy evangelizing that we spend politicizing, we could affect real change in this nation. God has not called us to legislate.He called us to win the lost. We're too busy spewing hateful venom to spread love. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples; if you have love one for the other.

AND SEE- THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN ABOUT PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT THAT IT IS ANY OF YOUR BUSINESS BY, BUT I'M ACTUALLY A WHITE MAN WHO HAS BEEN MARRIED TO THE SAME WOMAN FOR 18 YEARS WITH 2 TEENAGE CHILDREN, WHO IS WORKING OUT HIS SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING BEFORE GOD.

BUT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT ONE THING - I AM ANGRY!!!!

I AM ANGRY! NO DISGUSTED WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU!

I AM DISGUSTED WITH PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS WHO CONTINUE GOING ABOUT PLUCKING THE MOTE OUT OF THEIR BROTHERS' EYE WHILE FORGETTING THE PLANK THAT'S IN THEIRS!

I'M DISGUSTED WITH PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS AND YET HAVE PROSTITUTED THEMSELVES TO A POLITICAL PARTY.

I'M DISGUTED WITH PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS WHO FROTH AT THE MOUTH OVER ABORTION AND YET GIVE NO THOUGHT TO CHILDREN ONCE THEY HAVE BEEN BORN.

I AM ANGRY ABOUT CHRISTIANS WHO ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT SAME SEX MARRIAGE AND HOMOSEXUALTIY - WHILE STRAIGHT MARRIAGES AND FAMILIES ARE BEING DESTROYED LEFT RIGHT AND CENTER

I AM DISGUSTED WITH ANY CHRISTIAN WHO THINK THEY HAVE THE GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO TELL ANOTHER BROTHER THAT THEY ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN.

I AM ANGRY THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO PROFESS TO BE CHRISTIANS, WHO DESPISE OUR PRESIDENT AND PRETEND TO USE HIS STANCE ON GIVING CHOICES TO WOMEN AND INCLUDING ALL SEGMENTS OF OUR POPULATION AS THE REASON FOR THEIR DISPLEASURE.

YOU ARE RIGHT - I AM ANGRY!!!!!!

Let me go running with my kids and when I'm done I may tell you about more of my anger and disgust.
=====================================================
By wrote:"Justin, It sounds like you are an angry black man. I don't agree with slavery and it was wrong. The bottom line is- is that you are trying validate your sinful lifestyle.

but i do know i'm going to have to pray about my anger and disgust

At the time of the Inauguration,while all others were praying with closed eyes, Michelle was sitting in a detached manner with eyes wide open, sometimes laughing, sometimes swaying with her lega and sometimes gesticulating.So the vital question is: Are the Obamas really Christians? With Obama's Muslim and Kenyan background, I have my own doubts whethet they are really Christians. If Osama had destroyed American invincibility on 9/11, Obama is in the White House to destroy the cherished values of Americans - green signal to homosexuality and drugs.God alone can save America from the concealed designs of Obama.
A.Yeshuratnam
India.

YF,

Either the Bible is right or it's wrong! If you choose to believe it's words that is fine if you don't than follow the world! Read the Bible from cover to cover then you'll understand it. Always pray for understanding before you read and never and I mean never take someone's word for something. An Abominable act remains a serious sin no matter if it's in the Old Testament or New Testament. I remember the news reports years ago stating that they believed they had found the gene that was common to those who are Gay. Later it was reported that scientist were mistaken. The problem is sense it wasn't "BIG" news it wasn't reported by the major news agencies. Either follow the world or follow God it's as simple as that. Meanwhile I'll still pray for our countries leadership.

Does it bother anyone else that parishioners were snapping photos of him at that one Church? Shame on them... their minds should be on God, not Obama. I know I shouldn't judge, but that just is crazy!

Plus, I can't debate on whether Obama is Christian or not. I don't know his heart. Perhaps he is more Christian than some of the people on here, considering how rude, judgmental and hateful they have been about homosexuality and people who are pro-choice. I may be EXTREMELY against both homosexuality and abortion, but I do not believe that gives us the right to use hateful language towards them

It seems that most of you do not have a clue what judgementalism is. Christians and non Christians alike. Step back and look at your words. Both sides are equally at fault in your accusations concerning judging. And furthermore, you can read the Bible from cover to cover until doomsday and you won't understand it much less be able to interpret it correctly if you are not a born again believer. That truth is made clear in 1 Corinthians 2:14. The spiritual content of Scripture is absolutely hidden from those not abiding in Christ. Also, there is the problem with a believer who is walking "after the flesh" as noted in 1 Corinthian 3:1-4. These Christian are not able to digest the hard truths of Scripture, only the siimple truths.

Well firstly, judgementalism? What is that?

I'm amused that you think both sides are at fault and that they are interpreting the bible incorrectly. I'm amused because both sides would say they are born again and that they are led by the holy spirit and that their interpretation is correct.

Do you now perceive at all the problem here? This is why dear Ardnas, there are so many different sects within the umbrella of Christianity. But I constantly pray that God's will be done with all of us sinners saved by His grace.

Yes, amusing it is since I never accused anyone of interpreting the Bible incorrectly. I simply said that those who are not abiding in Christ, as portrayed in 1John, cannot know what the Word is actually saying. Passing judgment on others is obviously being done by both sides in this format. And let me emphasize, it is ovbvious that sides have been taken regardless of whether they say they are born again or not. It is a shame isn't it. We throw words around like we have all the answers. People get angry. They speak from anger. Some of us hurt a lot because of peoples words. It boils down to that little word "control". If "I" can't control it "I" think it is wrong. If "YOU" can't control it "YOU" think it is wrong. We are all too busy trying to control things to our way of thinking.

Is that not what you said?
But I don't have the time or energy to go back and forth. These type arguments serve no real purpose but to make someone feel good that they are right and they often become circular.

I will agree with you that words do hurt. I hope you will agree with me, that we need to spend time in prayer and seeking God. The enemy is doing quite a number on us - fighting amongst ourselves over nonsense instead of spreading the good news.


"Both sides are equally at fault in your accusations concerning judging. And furthermore, you can read the Bible from cover to cover until doomsday and you won't understand it much less be able to interpret it correctly if you are not a born again believer. That truth is made clear in 1 Corinthians 2:14. The spiritual content of Scripture is absolutely hidden from those not abiding in Christ."

Yes, I would agree with you - the ememy is certainly loving it. If he can keep us busy fussing over side issues, it keeps us off what our goal should be, as you say, spreading the good news. It is not worth it to spend our precious days here on earth being stumbling blocks before others while we are playing like little gods all over the place. Of course we should have standsrds but on the other hand, if someone elses standards don't measure up to yours, let God be God and you be what He intended you to be. One who loves Him so much that we can only focus on Him and not on people who will let us down every time. As we focus on Him, we will in turn become more like Him in our walk and have that love and compassion for our Christian brothers and sisters as well as for others.

As God reads these comments, I wonder what He must think. It will be amazing, in the last day, who is actually in Heaven and who is not.

Where does the bible speak about abortion?

Posted by: justin at July 1, 2009

Psalm 127:3 Children are a gift from the LORD; they are a reward from him.

Psalm 127:4 Children born to a young man are like sharp arrows in a warrior's hands.

Psalm 127:5 How happy is the man whose quiver is full of them! He will not be put to shame when he confronts his accusers at the city gates.

Children are a gift from God... What is God to think of those who murder his gift?

Isaiah 57:5 You worship your idols with great passion beneath every green tree. You slaughter your children as human sacrifices down in the valleys, under overhanging rocks.

And in abortion clinics....

.

There is no condemnation of Gay marriage in the Bible.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at July 1, 2009

Because in the Bible homosexuality is an abomination....

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

Obama is a real christian. I believe that people must always gossip about gifted human like Obama.

@David Hardy

We can throw verses at each other until the cows come home. At the end of the day - a prohibition against abortion cannot be found in the bible.

But we do find lots of instances where killing infants and children were ok - ergo ...

2 Kings 2:23-24: "From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.

Isaiah 14:21 "Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth ..."

Hosea 9:11-16 "The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.... And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."


Ezekiel 9:5-7 "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children"


Isaiah 13:15-18: "Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children."

Exodus 12:29-30:"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; where there was not one dead."

Judges 18:27-29: "Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, INFANT ..."

We can throw verses at each other until the cows come home. At the end of the day - a prohibition against abortion cannot be found in the bible.

Posted by: justin at July 7, 2009

Abortion is the premeditated murder...

Exodus 20:13 "Do not murder.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder,

Of an innocent human being...

Jeremiah 22:17 "But you! You are full of selfish greed and dishonesty! You murder the innocent, oppress the poor, and reign ruthlessly."


Ezekiel 33:25 Now give these people this message from the Sovereign LORD: You eat meat with blood in it, you worship idols, and you murder the innocent. Do you really think the land should be yours?

Abortion is also the sacrifice of one's child, to the god of self...

Ezekiel 23:37 They have committed both adultery and murder--adultery by worshiping idols and murder by burning their children as sacrifices on their altars.

To murder your child, that was more than likely conceived out of sexual immorality... Is most definately not in keeping with the second commandment...

Romans 13:9 For the commandments against adultery and murder and stealing and coveting--and any other commandment--are all summed up in this one commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

.

I keep hearing comments about not judging...but I think the better rendering would be not to condemn. The Lord led Paul to call for judgement to begin at the house of God. Instead of being opposed to "judging," we should be praying for the Lord to raise up righteous judges in a day and age where there is so much skewed judging.

I am simply praying for the Lord to fulfill His will, regardless of how that has to happen. Whether the President is Chirstlike or not, God will fulfill all His plans....of that, I am certin!

I think the Lord doesn't want us to condemn, but He does desire judgement. "It's time for judgemnt to begin at the house of God!" I am trusting the Lord to perform His will whethr our President is Christlike or no!

Okay - so where does Psalm 139 fit in all this discussion. It would seem that the Lord knew me before my body was formed in the womb. I was even written up in God's book (verse 16) before I was formed. Can you imagine a little person being snatched out of the womb by a hostel party after God had acknowledged that a person is there? Do you think God is going to be silent forever concerning the stealing of a person from His book? I believe He will not take kindly to that. As he will not take kindly to child abuse after birth. Be warned -- His judgment will come. It makes no difference what we believe. It is what doesn't measure up to God's standard that will be judged.

Isaiah 13:15-18: "Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their INFANTS will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. .. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless BABIES and will show no compassion for the CHILDREN."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, INFANT ..."

Psalm 137:8-9 "... happy is he who repays you, he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks"

Deuteronomy 2:34: "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed them: men, women, and the LITTLE CHILDREN. We left no survivors."

Deuteronomy 3:3-7:" So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan... We took all of his cities (60 of them) and completely destroyed them. every city, men women and CHILDREN"

Joshua 6:21 "They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it- men and women, YOUNG and old.

Joshua 8:26 "... All the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it 12,000 men women and INFANTS fell that day..."

The way that you are presenting your "argument" Justin, would indicate that in order to perform an abortion, it would be necessary to put to death both mother and abortionist, each and every time....

Numbers 35:33 This will ensure that the land where you live will not be polluted, for murder pollutes the land. And no atonement can be made for murder except by the execution of the murderer.

And you advocate empowering anti-abortionists with justification for killing the mothers who abort their children, as well as the abortionists who perform the abortions...

Psalm 9:12 For he who avenges murder cares for the helpless. He does not ignore those who cry to him for help.

Jeepers Justin... All I would like to see is the cessation of abortion on demand...

You on the other hand are quite a bit more bloodthirsty...


.

48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'9This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

You have aptly demonstrated that it is impossible for you to have an original thought. Unless you have found something on a website from an organization that panders to your myopia you seem bereft. Since you legalistically interpret the bible and since it is sola scriptura this is what the bible has to say about infants and children. Not me, not Mr. Obama the bible. The inerrant word of God! Ergo…

Isaiah 13:15-18: "Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their INFANTS will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. .. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless BABIES and will show no compassion for the CHILDREN."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, INFANT ..."

Psalm 137:8-9 "... happy is he who repays you, he who seizes your INFANTS and dashes them against the rocks"

Deuteronomy 2:34: "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed them: men, women, and the LITTLE CHILDREN. We left no survivors."

Deuteronomy 3:3-7:" So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan... We took all of his cities (60 of them) and completely destroyed them. every city, men women and CHILDREN"

Joshua 6:21 "They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it- men and women, YOUNG and old.

Joshua 8:26 "... All the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it 12,000 men women and INFANTS fell that day..."

2 Kings 2:23-24: "From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.

Isaiah 14:21 "Make ready to slaughter HIS SONS for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth ..."

Hosea 9:11-16 "The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your CHILDREN WILL DIE AT BIRTH OR PERISH IN THE WOMB OR NEVER EVEN BE CONCEIVED. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.... And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved CHILDREN."

Ezekiel 9:5-7 "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and LITTLE CHILDREN"

Isaiah 13:15-18: "Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their INFANTS will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on HELPLESS BABIES and will show no compassion for the CHILDREN."

Exodus 12:29-30:"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the FIRSTBORN in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; where there was not one dead."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, INFANT ..."

You have issues take it up with God.

Justin my friend - every verse you quote is from the OT. Yes, oppression was the order of the day in OT times. In fact, the word oppression (or some derivitive of that word) is used well over a hundred times in the OT. It is used only a couple of times in the NT. And that oppression was condemned by God. In fact, God saw that man had so twisted his laws that he came to earth in human form to straighten us out. Jesus said in Luke 4:18 that he came to deliver the captives and to free those who are bruised and down trodden. The OT ways have been condemned and are no longer the order of the day. Jesus was not about condoning that lifestyle and He called it sin. Try adopting the NT ways of Jesus. Jesus said in John 10:10 "The thief comes not but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy; I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more aabundantly". Justin, Jesus has the answers. So mnany of us fail to internalize his simple but profound message. It is hard because we are so tightly caught up in the environment of our existence. There is a world out there dying in sin and we sit here trying to solve problems that are beyond us. That is why we need Jesus. I am as guilty as the next one when it comes to thinking I am right. Then I realize that my small sphere of existence can in no way see or know what God always has in mind. Of course we are to use our intelligence but we are also to remember that our intelligence can be a stumbling block to the Holy Spirits ability to work out the wrong conclusions we may have come to believe.

Also let me add that while we cannot totally understand God's actions in OT times, we do know that it was because of the continuous turning away of the people from God that caused Him to violently react to their sin.
God is a God of wrath as well as love. His wrath is not pretty. That is why we are told as believers we will not be partakers of His wrath in the last days. Jesus has made it clear that children are precious to Him.
Luke 17:2 "It would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Jesus also wanted the children to come to Him when others were trying to keep them away in Jerusalem.
The OT proves that God is a God of wrath. So much blood was shed. And the NT proves that God is love. God cannot tolerate sin and He will unleash His wrath again in the last days. For now, we are in the day of grace. He is giving us time to repent of our sin. Take heed and allow God to be God without question. Escape is only through Jesus blood. Yes, the blood had to be shed. That is why Jesus came to shed His blood to atone for us. We no longer live in OT times when the blood was shed in a different way to condemn sin.

Ardnas, I know they are from the OT and I used them for a specific reason.

Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but to confirm it.
God said He does not change that He’s the same yesterday today and forever.

It has been my contention from day one that we as Christians pick and choose parts of the bible that lend proof to our prejudices while totally ignoring other parts of it that are inconvenient for us. To do so is hypocrisy. We either take the bible as sola scriptura, as the inerrant word of God-even the parts that are hard to deal with and may even be contradictory or we shut up. To pick and choose is not only hypocritical but duplicitous. And it just shows us Christians in a rather poor light.

What, do we think that God can’t see our hearts? Some of us pick and choose abortion and same sex couplings as the bulwark of what it is to be a Christian and we dare to judge everyone on these two standards. Totally ignoring that right along side the admonition against same sex are several other sins that have been listed. It’s as if we would welcome the very devil into the fold as long as he too were to state he’s against abortion and same sex couplings (hmmmm come to think of it- we have welcomed him already- and yes I am judging)

- Up until the 70s it was blacks who were to be kept out
- Then it was the communists-until the wall came down and until we discovered how cheap it is to import goods from the most virulent God hating communist country - China
- Now it’s the gays and abortionists.

Doesn’t this progression from one category to the next speak to some Christians?

Do I have any answer- nope – all I can do is work out my own salvation with fear and trembling before God and keep him first in my life and let him deal with all the other stuff. It is His will and it will be done in spite of or despite what any of us can do.

I just sometimes find it annoying when some continue to spout who is or isn’t a Christian. None of us has perfect knowledge to do so! Absolutely none of us! I mean read some Christian blogs and website: and there you will find many Christians who are calling Obama the anti-christ. I mean come on!!!!!!


and just for good measure - Proverbs list 7 things that God absolutelys hates. Care to guess what those things are?

Justin - Thankyou for your kind reply. I agree with much of what you say. And choose not to dwell on what I don't agree with. I don't have to guess at what (and I know you meant Proverps 6) has to say. I know.
Let me just say that I do not know anyone who picks abortion or sex couplings as a bulwark of what it is to be a Christian. I give most people more credit than to be that narraw minded. Having said that. If they are spiritually led in their conviction that those acts are against God's intended word then that is their right to believe that. If they do believe such things, I do not think they are automatically ingnoring Proverbs 6 in their lives. And I cannot condemn them.
I think the problem comes when Christians have a distorted view of what love and compassion are. And I know many Christian who have that problem. I have experienced it personally. They are so busy keeping things under their control that they cannot let God be God. Their is no trusting in God. They have to protect their interests under the cover of scripture. Their intrepretation is correct and you will come around to their way of thinking or you will not be accepted. In fact, you are taught not to think - just to follow.
It is more than sad to be in a circle where that particular group of Christians think they are more informed than all other Christians. And they follow the pure word of God better than others. But they lack one thing as it says in ICor.13...if they have not love, they are worth nothing. Even worse, they think they do have love.

As a preacher's kid the church was and is important to me. I would not have believed it was difficult finding a church until I moved to a town in Michigan. The churches had leaders that were anything but led by God. I drive more than two hundred miles round trip to another town in Michigan to worship. I understand the President's plight. As a Christian, I keep him and his family along with the hateful hearts of those who direct their hate towards him, in prayer.

Ardanas – If you’ve not noticed the pickings of abortion and same sex couplings then you must not have read the posts concerning President Obama or those on conservative organizations. I would suggest that you do. As well as other posts in the recent archives. I gave Christians more credit too until I stumbled upon this website, which then led to other websites. I quickly realized that if some of these Christians are not the same people posting on other websites, but just under a different name – then there’s a whole different universe of Christianity that I never knew existed. And it is scary. I often wondered, where the general poor view of Christianity in this country came from. I used to think it was just one off crack pots like Gerry Falwell and Liberty University who taught that interracial relationships were a sin etc until very recently, but boy was I wrong.

So many of us believe and act as if America is God’s chosen nation. Loving Him for our own advantage/agenda—seeing God as the source of our external riches and internal confirmation of our skewed sense of morality.

We delude ourselves into believing that our desires are the desires of God and not the other way around. No wonder we get it wrong so often. We see our “blessings” as material goods—wealth, health, cars, homes, power etc. And by golly these things are not to be shared. Oh no! They are to hoarded because after all God blessed us with them, didn’t He. In the meantime, those who are poor, disenfranchised, homeless or ill are definitely not blessed, and are to be viewed as morally suspect since they may have done something “wrong” to deserve the condition they are in. But it’s fine as long as we pay them lip service.

I tell you, I now fully understand what Jesus meant when he said: “I was hungry but you never fed me, I was thirsty but you never gave me drink…”

Some Christians may think that they follow the pure word of God. I don’t think this is possible – for various reasons. Not that there’s anything wrong in attempting to do this. That’s what this whole walk is supposed to be about. But I think what is forgotten is that we are all sinners saved by His Grace.

Now you asked about my church affiliation – I attend Times Square Church in NYC. The church that was started by Dave Wilkerson – he of the “Cross and the Switchblade” fame. But a church didn’t die for me- One person did, so my allegiance is to Him and Him only. I worship and fellowship with my brothers and sisters; encourage and get encouragement, but I also question what is preached in any church or by any man – and if it doesn’t tie in to the bible, well guess which one gets kicked to the curb?

Hostility shuts me down? Where did you get this impression? Hostility from the world I expect. As professed Christians, that’s part and parcel of the walk: and if we are not getting it- we better check ourselves. I guess I never expected it from people who call themselves Christians. Nor did I expect the obvious hypocrisy and duplicity. You are right I am angry. I am sickened by it. See, from my way of thinking – we should know better than that. We should be held to a higher standard always and not just when it is expedient to do so. If we don’t, how dare we tell others about their sins?

Some believe that time is short- yet we are still playing these childish games of pointing the fingers at others.

Do you know there is an organization now that caters to married people who want to have an affair? At last count there were 4 million members with one new person joining every 15 seconds. And do you know the thing about it – this organization gets positive reviews for its service! What would Jesus say?

Let's continue to pray for our president and his family

God Bless

Justin - you have given so much to comment on. I have read all the postings above. In commenting on the "pickings" I meant to say that I do not know anyone personally who has those views. I am not a blogger of many sites and therefore am not aware of what others are saying for the most part.

I was also not aware that Jerry Falwell had the view you state about inter-marriage. I do know that Bob Jones University had that view and even worse would not take black students into there school. Recently they apologized saying it was a cultural belief not a Biblical belief that inter-marriage should not take place. They do accept black studends now as well.

Yes it is easy to be deluded in our Christian walk. I do believe that the only reason we are still a nation of prosperity is because we are uncompromising friends of Isreal and we continue to send missionaries around the world to spread the gospel. Our nation was godly when it began but as you say our lives have become self centered even among Christians.

I have to admit that I am troubled by some who are capable but will not work and then want hand outs. When is that statement in the word, if you don't work you don't eat (2Thess.3:10), become a reality?
To become enablers is not to my way of thinking a truely compassionate act. Sometimes love has to be tough.

I also believe that you don't need the government to share what we have. That which is not voluntary is not sharing. We as Christians need to share our good fortune through our sources of giving voluntarily out of love and compassion for others not as fortunate. And I will admit that the Christian community as a whole has failed in doing so. It is a shame that we have become such a closed society for the most part. I do however know of many homeless programs being conducted by Christian churches and organizations, but your premise that we tend to see our meterial possessions as a sign we are in God's favor is certainly valid.

Christians can be very hard and unkind toward there own. Love and compassion takes a vacation more often than not. I guess I was thinking that anger shuts people down, because it most often leads to depression if not dealt with correctly. I too have never been able to figure out the vindictivness of fellow believers. As you say, I never learn to expect it and therefore am amazed every time.

Ardnas- Ah I thought you meant from on line- I guess we’ve both lived a shelthered life. ;-)

Bob Jones University may have apologized but they’ve lied. Here’s a letter from 1999 where they explained that it was a biblical prohibition.
And Liberty does/did have the same policies in place. I seem to recall something about this during the furor last year over a political party club. I think it was some sort of democratic party club.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t see material possessions as intrinsically evil. I just think that God blesses us so that we can be a blessing to others. But this doesn’t seem to be the case though. We seem to have fallen into the trap along with the rest of the world of storing up treasures on this earth.
I talk to gay people and atheists and drunks and businessmen and women and average joes in the street and Christian brothers and sisters and I tell you it is becoming difficult here to have people listen to anything about God. Perhaps it’s just that I live in NYC and we are more cynical here…

Be that as it may- I’m finding that more and more what the Christianity we show to the world is being judged by non-believers and we are being found wanting. No wonder God is going to have to remove the Church :-)

Even so come quickly Lord Jesus

Bless

Yes, I will agree that I have lived a sheltered life in many respects. And not to belabor the point but the Liberty University incident about the Dem. club had nothing to do with race relations. That was a pure political situation and since Falwell is dead he had nothing to do with that. The Bob Jones apologie came only within the last year or two. So I don't know how that 1999 letter relates. Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning anything here.

You are certainly correct about us storing up treasures on earth but we are told in scripture to provide for our own. So to be responsible in that sense for not neglecting to provide for old age is not unscriptual to my way of thinking.

I would hesitate to paint those of any political party as greedy. It is the individual you have to look at. Whether they be a liberal or conservative in political persuasion, you will find individuals who are greedy. I would venture to say that the most quilty in this country of storing up treasures on earth are our elected officials in Washington. Let's be realistic. Neither party has a monopoly on that. What I take exception to is the double standard in how things are reported and hew these people won't sacrifice as they expect us to do.

Well - I could go on but thank God He will one day come back and straighten this mess out. Sooner than later I pray.

I have enjoyed blogging with you. You challenge me to think and I like that.

Ardnas, I too have enjoyed the discussion as well and you too have led me to think and question and research, for which I thank you

The letter was to show you that the apology from Bob Jones University was a lie. It was a letter written by the university in which they explained that their policy prohibiting interracial dating was biblical grounded. They cannot then apologize and say it was a social construct.

I’m going to do some research on Liberty University on their policy of interracial dating. I’m sure they too have/had the same stance. But I will recheck

Again, like all moral laws, I do have some difficulty with interpretation and when to employ them. Do we rigidly interpret the Bible or not? Do we take the bible as the inerrant word of God and stick to it rigidly or not? Personally, I find that none of us do this 100% of the time because it just may be impossible to do so. I know I don't. The difficulty is what do we hold sacrosanct and what don't we. eg. Jesus said turn the other cheek. Should you therefore not defend yourself if you are attacked then? Should you not kill someone who will go on to kill a hundred innocent people? When does pacifism become inaction, when does universal love become complaisance to hatred? When does forgiveness become injustice?

On giving-just said if a man asks you give him. He never said to rationalize whether or not the man is going to use if for good or ill. Are we supposed to?
Exactly what are we supposed to do when we know the person is going to use the money for drugs or drink or cigarettes?

I brought up the issue of storing up treasures - Jesus had a discourse about this - when he said to look at the birds of the air, that the Father takes care of them. And He will do much more for us.

So we end up with everyone holding the parts sacrosanct that are dear to them (sorta like the eternal complaint of everyone interpreting the bible to suit their prejudices).

And hence why it is a very slippery slope when we start pointing out others’ sins. From Jesus – He was into – neither do I accuse you go and sin no more.” And he is the only person that had the right and the knowledge to be accusatory. I prefer to adopt his method. I’ll share the word of God and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

P.s. I was talking to a fellow brother in Christ last night after prayer meeting. He's convinced Obama is the anti-christ. I don't even know how we got onto the topic - I just walked off.

I live in a Michigan city and travel almost 200 miles round trip to attend a church. I was nurtured by spiritually committed men and women of God with Pastor's loving the church as Christ loved His bride the church. Until you have been so nurtured, you cannot understand what President Obama is going through in trying to find a church fit for family. One can neither simply join a church no more than one can simply place their children in any neighborhood or school if their children/family have the kind of importance I believe the Obamas have for themselves. It was not easy for me to find a church and I still pain for those in some of the churches in the city where I live.

I am still here Justin but since I have little time now I will only say a few words about Obama and the anti-christ.

Technology has brought the world to a great degree of distress. Economically we have become more dependent on each other. The whole world seems to be increasingly disturbed. People want no more wars and instead peace and comfort without consequences.

"The anti-christ" will come as a peace maker for the whole world. He will be disguised as the great humanitatian. We will talk peace, prosperity, and plenty. He will have to be well spoken and Charismatic. His theme will be to make society better and then man will live in the peace and prosperity. He will sign treaties with many nations and have kings under him. You read about him in Revelation beginning in Chapt.6 and there is much more about him in Chapt.13 and beyond. He is recognized as the one who comes on the white horse mentioned in 6:2, This is not the same rider who comes on a white horse in Chapt. 19.

Having said all the above, I doubt seriously that Obama is "the anti christ". But perhaps some have rationalized this due to what we tend to believe about "The anti-christ".

I do not think the world has come to the place where we are pleading for a deliverer yet. I tend also to believe that the church will be raptured before "the anti-christ" comes.

I do believe the stage is being set for that day. But again, I do not think Obama can be "the anti-christ". It behooves us to remain vigilant, but frankly, I am looking for for Christ's return. As you say, "even so, come quickly, Lord."

I will be back in awhile to comment on the rest of your latest message.

Yes Ardnas, but there's one major thing lacking - If I remember my prophecy correctly(some years since I've studied them) - he's supposed to be European.

But like you - I'm looking for Christ and not the one with anti before it.

I'm simply fascinated how we ascribe biblical portent to everything.

It's as if we don't truly believe the bible so we want some little thing - any little thing to grab a hold of so that we could say, "see, see now i know the bible is right after all"

You are absolutely right Justin. I believe "the anti-christ" will come from European soil so to speak. Sorry I neglected to think about that.

Now for a stab at the rest of your message. The Bible itself, many times over, declares that it is the word of God. If that is so, how can we chose to assume any part of the Bible is untrue? Many of us tend to analyze and dissect the Bible on the basis of impressions, subjective feelings or insuficient historical knowledge. if the truth were known, what we think about God is generally wrong. Probably it would serve us better to be more interested in wehat God thinks of us. Personally, I believe it is legitimate for us to base our faith in inerancy on the Bible's own words. If we would take any given verse or passage and decide on our own that it is in error and shouldn't be worded that way or shouldn't even be there, then I would say we are in serious danger of overstepping our bounds. When we do that, are we not saying we are more enlightened than even those who put the words there in the first place? How can we say it is the Word of God and then say, "But this sentence is not true?" Then are we not calling God a liar? How can we say we have faith in God but we don't have faith in a lot of His Word?

I am sure you would agree that inerrancy does not mean uniformity in all the detailed accounts written by the different authors. Each author wrote according to the truth as was given by the Holy Spirit. Had they written in like fashion and words they would no doubt have been accused of collulsion. There is no doubt that copyists made mistakes. That is evident from the variations of different manuscripts. And, in fact we do not have the original manuscripts. But, again, we as Christians should accept all this by faith, being convinced of its witnes to the truth even if we cannot explain every jot and tittle.

We do our witness to he outside world no good when we do not hold to inerrancy of the Bible. If I can't believe some of it, then I can't believe any of it. If I believe something is untrue that is written in the Bible, perhaps I am blinded in some particular way because of whatever reason.Just because I see something that is not explainable in my mind doesn't mean it is not explainable in the eyes of God.

In short, we should hold it all sacrosanct because we do not have the mind of God to be aable to sort out what we might see as a problem.

You are correct in saying that none of us hold to the word rigidly 100% of the time. We are all sinners and we stray. I have been very much exposed to the teaching of those wh are rigid in their literal interpretation of the Bible. Even tey are not as correct as they like to think they are. They tend to stray widely in their compassion and love for others. They preach it but their actions are wanting. Some don't have a clue.

Turning the other cheek is taught clearly by the Lord as a must for individuals dealing with other individuals. But we are told to obey those in authority over us, which extends to our government. If our government is not turning the other cheek as we may like, I do not believe we are held accountable if we take part in actions they have decided uupon bvecause we are under their authority. If we are praying for our leaders (and we should be) we need to trust that God is in control and knows more about a given situation than we do.

I have long since decided that I cannot give a down and outer money to support his destructive habit. I give to organizations who will use the money in a way to help these people better than I can if I cannot give them a meal myself. What anyone else does in that type of situation has to be between himn or her and the Lord. I would never judge anyone for what they choose to do.

You are very right, however, to saya we are not to rationalize what any moneys we give might be used for. We are not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. If God leads you to give, then give and let the Lord take care of the rest. But should we not be cautioned to make sure the Lord is doing the prompting and not our emotions that can so easily control?

And "the birds of the air". Yes, I thought of that verse but I wonder if we are not a little naive to think that we are not to use our resources to keep us from the place of having to rely on handouts. The Bible does say to take care of your own and to take care of our brothers and sisters in Christ and then the poor. Building up treasures is one thing, but taking care is another. I do not believe "taking care" is a sin.

Well - the length of this tells me I should wrap it up and hope that you and yours will continue to be blessed in His Name.

Ardnas, I think the question to ask is what is meant by the word of God. Did God dictate it and people wrote or what? Let’s take Paul’s letters for instance. Paul was writing these letters some to friends, some to churches some to colleagues who were in the field sharing the Good News. I don’t think that Paul thought he was writing scripture when he was writing these letters. These letters only became scripture after they became part of the canon.

I don’t agree that we shouldn’t question. That to me is a dangerous thing. The bible says study to show ourselves approved. It also says to study so that we may have an answer for anyone who asks. If we do not question and ask the tough questions we have instances like slavery and the crusades. I’m not willing to revert to those eras.

There are certain parts that God dictated like when he did to Moses and to Jeremiah. But I don’t think that he did this for all of the books.

But this is a public forum so I’m going to stop here.
The bible has to be inerrant because it is inerrant and not because we wish it to be so or have been taught that it is so.

I’m still not sure about the giving part. There are times that I do give when I feel I am led to give; other times I don’t. There are many times I recognize the man I have given money to, smoking up a storm. And I can tell you that – it’s rather annoying.

Outside of the bible – do you know of any very rich Christians? I don’t mean well off- (I mean what we would call filthy rich) who became filthy rich after they became Christians? I don’t mean Preachers either :-)!
I think that God gives us ability for us to make a living to take care of ourselves… but this one is difficult… More so in these hard economic climes. There are so many Christian brothers and sisters who I see suffering and I’m telling you they are on the verge of giving up. Especially, those who have been out of work for over a year now. I do the usual of sharing encouragement and helping financially where I can, but sometimes I can see in their eyes that the taking care of birds of the air is beginning to sound hollow…

Sigh- I guess it is like the scripture says – we can only see as it were thru a glass darkly now...

God bless you too. Keep trusting the Great I AM

I find it difficult to reconcile with the idea of questioning the Bible as God's Word. But I never suggested that we should not question peoples interpretation of it.I apparently did not make that clear.

The crusades and slavery were deviations from the Word or the Bible as you refer to it. I find nothing in the NT that condones such actions the way they were implemented? And Paul stated several times in his writings that he was giving his own words when he was writing. If the rest were not God's words, then why did Paul take pains to say "these are my words" when he did?

Again, of course we should question. I am a skeptic and questioner. It is through lack of questioning that cults are born. It is pretty impossible for me to understand how one can believe and yet not believe. If you doubt the Bible to be the Word of God, then how can you be sure that you know who Jesus was? Well, I guess this is not the format for such deep discussions as this. But it has been a good discusson.

No, I do not know any super rich. However, I did work for a couple many years ago who were, I believe, super rich. They were extremely generous people without a doubt. But since then, I have known no Christians who are that rich. I know of some who have lost their jobs. And one who has been without a job for over a yuer now. Our church is generous to help these families out. It is as it should be, people helping and sharing voluntarily to give help and hope.

Yes, it can be overwhelming at times. That is why we need the one who is our redeemer. We have many questions. So many things are hidden from our understanding. We dare not look for the answers in our minds, but in our spirit as we yield to our Father through Jesus.

I'd rather have a Moslem for president than someone (e.g. Sarah Palin) who speaks in tongues. The Moslem's beliefs may be wrong, but at least he's never abdicated his mind to the point of babbling gibberish and rolling around on the ground.

obama is a moslem have not got that you lame idiots
look at what all he has done he anti white and anti american anti isreal and he is homolover which he is a obamanation in my Gods eyes and he is not my president either and he is not a citizen and he has plans for you to send you to the death camps just adolph hitler did

Hi,

Enclosed is a Bible study of the 7 Bible clues which reveal the identity of the coming antichrist of the Great Tribulation and could Obama possibly be the future False Prophet of 666. Jesus is our bestest Friend and only Jesus and His Father gives Endless Love. Hoping for your comments and feedback. My phone is 863-651-4426.

Your eternal friend in Jesus,

Richard

WHAT ARE THE 7 BIBLE CLUES WHICH REVEAL THE IDENTITY OF 666??


Revelation 13:17b,18: "The mark of the beast {Or antichrist}is the *NAME* of the Beast or the number of *HIS NAME*. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, *LET HIM* calculate the number of the Beast {Even in AD 96 when Revelation was written}, for it is a man's number {Or "Number of a MAN"}. *HIS* number is *666*." God has promised in the above inspired passage that any saint {Even in AD 96--which implies that the name was known in AD 96} with spiritual wisdom and insight may calculate the name of the beast which is a *MAN'S NAME* and adds up to 666.

In Thess 2:3 the Beast of the End-Times is called a "*MAN* of sin or lawlessness" or very SINFUL MAN and therefore the name of the Beast which adds up to 666 is a *MAN'S* name which is also confirmed in Rev 13:17b,18 above. Therefore, the NAME of the Beast which adds up to 666 is a sinful *MAN'S NAME* and could not be the name of a woman or a city, country, computer or Satan, etc..

Rev 13:16,17: "He {The False Prophet} forced everyone... to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead. No one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast {Nero Caesar??} or the number of his name {666}. The antichrist is called a "BEAST" 36 {6x6} times in Revelation and the BEAST is a much better name than antichrist since antichrist is mentioned 4 times in God's Word {I John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7} and each time the word encompasses all who are against Christ. I JOHN 2:18: "Even now many antichrists have come." Surely all who receive the mark of the Beast are antichrists.

666 is referred to in the MASCULINE gender 28 times and the Beast is never referred to in the feminine or neuter gender. It is interesting to note that if the Beast of the end-times will be a religious organization, country or city it would be referred to in the female or neuter gender!!! The masculine pronouns used for the Beast are "HIS" 11 times: Rev 13:1, 5,16b,18b; 14:9,11; 17:7b; 19:2; 20:4(2X) & Daniel 7:26. "HE" 10 times: Rev 13:1;6a,7a,7; 17:8b; 17:11; 2 Thess 2:6; Daniel 7:24,25 & Daniel 9:27. "HIM" 5 times: Rev 13:4b; 19:20; 2 Thess 2:6; Daniel 7:25 & Daniel 9:27. "HIMSELF" 2 times in 2 Thess 2:4.

Actually there are **7 BIBLE CLUES** that show who the BEAST of the future 1260-day Tribulation will be. By an amazing coincidence all 7 Bible clues can be applied to Nero Caesar!!

{{1}} The BEAST will be a "MAN OF SIN" or very sinful MAN as per 2 Thess 2:3 above.

{{2}} The number of this sinful man's name is 666 as per Rev 13:16-18. The Bible was written by 40 divinely inspired Hebrews in Hebrew and Greek so then it is highly probable that this man's name adds up to 666 in Hebrew or Greek. Nero Caesar's name adds up to 666 in Hebrew which we will show later in this Bible study.

{{3}} This sinful man whose name adds up to 666 DIED BEFORE AD 96 when Revelation was written.{See Rev 17:8 below} We will show later why Revelation was written between Sept AD 95 and Sept AD 96. Nero Caesar lived from December 15th, AD 37 to June 9th AD 68.

{{4}} This sinful man who was alive and then died before AD 96 was FATALLY WOUNDED by a sword wound to his head. Nero Caesar committed suicide with a sword wound to his head on June 9th, AD 68. {See Rev 13:3 and Rev 13:14 below}

{{5}} This very sinful man who died before AD 96 was a KING in the Roman Empire as per Daniel 7:24. There were 11 Roman Kings or Caesars who died before AD 96 including the 6th Caesar who killed Paul and Peter in AD 66; and whose name adds up to 666 in Hebrew. Domitian Caesar was the 12th Caesar who was alive when Revelation was written in AD 96.

{{6}} The beast is also called an 8th KING who ruled before AD 96 as one of 7 KINGS crowned by the city on 7 hills. {See Rev 17:9-11} The identity of these 8 KINGS will be discussed later in this article.

{{7}} This very sinful ROMAN KING whose name adds up to 666 and who was fatally wounded by a sword before AD 96, will "COME UP FROM THE *ABYSS* or *HELL* as per Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8. We know that the ABYSS is HELL by comparing 2 Peter 2:4 with Luke 8:30b,31. We can be sure that Nero Caesar is now in the Abyss or Hell since he killed Paul and Peter and thousands of Christians and sent Vespasian {the father of Titus and Domitian Caesar} to kill the Jews and destroy their Temple. The MAN OF SIN or Nero also killed his own mother and killed his pregnant wife by kicking her in the stomach. Inscriptions have been found in Ephesus in which Nero is called "Almighty God" and "Savior. In Revelation 13:8a we learn that all the unsaved inhabitants of the world will worship the Beast. Nero and Caligula "abandoned all reserve" in promoting emperor worship - they were the only two Roman Caesars who demanded divine honors while still alive. Nero claimed to be the sun-god Apollo. In 2 Thess 2:4 we read that the "Man of Sin" will proclaim that he is God!

Revelation 17:8: The beast, which you saw, once was {alive}, Now {in AD 96} is not {alive} and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book life.. .. will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was {Before AD 96}, now {In AD 96} is not {Alive} and yet will come. Rev 13:14: He {The False Prophet} will order the inhabitants of the earth to set up an image in honor of the beast who was {FATALLY-Rev 13:3} wounded by the sword and yet lived." Rev 13:3: One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound. but the fatal wound had been HEALED!! The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

When I was a missionary in Israel I studied the Hebrew language. One of the first things that you learn when you study the OT Ancient Hebrew language {Which is also the language of Israel today!} is that the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet ALSO represent 22 numbers! When you read Psalm 119 you will note that the 176 sentences are divided into 22 sections; each section with 8 sentences or verses praising the Word of God. These 22 sections are each headed by one of the letters in the hebrew alphabet in the exact same order as shown below. The ancient Hebrew language {Which is exactly the same as the modern Hebrew language} frequently used the letters of their alphabet to designate NUMBERS IN THE OT as follows:

ALEPH=1. BETH=2. GIMEL=3. DALET=4. HE=5. VAV=6. ZAYIN=7. CHETH=8. TETH=9. YODH=10. KAPH=20. LAMED=30. MEM=40. NUN=50. SAMEKH=60. AYIN=70. PE=80. TSADHE=90. KOPH=100. RESH=200. SHIN=300. TAV=400.

NOTE: Most vowel sounds excpt "O" {VAV} are not used as letters in Hebrew. These vowel sounds are designated by dots and dashes under their *PRECEDING* consonants. In Hebrew "N" is added on the end of all foreign names ending in "O". Therefore, the foreign name of Nero would be "NERON" in Hebrew. The name Nero Caesar would be pronounced Neron Kaysar in Hebrew. The "E" in Neron and the 2 "A" sounds in Kaysar {There is no "C" in Hebrew} are designated by dots and dashes under their preceding consonants and therefore are not letters in the 22 letter Hebrew alphabet, and so have no numerical value.

Neron in Hebrew would use 4 letters with numerical value: N-R-O-N and Kaysar in Hebrew would use 3 letters with numerical value: K-S-R. There would be a dot under the first N to show the "E" sound in NEron There would also be 2 dots under the "K" to show the "AY" sound in KAYsar and a dash under the "S" to show the "AH" sound in KaySAHr. The 4 letters with numerical value in NERON would be {SEE TABLE ABOVE} N = 50; R = RESH = 200; O = VAV = 6; and N = NUN = 50 and 50+20+6+50 equals 306. The 3 letters with numerical value in "KAYSAR would be K = KOPH = 100; S = SAMEKH = 60; and R = RESH =200 and 100+60+200 equals 360. And so the numerical value of Nero in Hebrew is 306 and the numerical value of Caesar in Hebrew is 360, and therefore the numerical value of Nero Caesar is 306+360 or exactly *666*!

There is a very interesting footnote in the revised Standard Version concerning the number 666 which states that some ancient manuscripts have the number **616** which *DOUBLY* confirms that Nero Caesar may be the Anti-Christ!! You will note that the Hebrew language adds an "N" to all foreign names eding in "O". Now "N" or "NUN" in Hebrew has a numerical value of **50**!! and so if you decided not to add the last "N" in NERON then Nero Caesar would add up to exactly **616** in Hebrew. I think you will admit that this is an absolutely amazing coincidence!!

Any honest Hebrew language scholar will confirm that the letters of Nero Caesar's name add up to 666 in the Hebrew language whose 22 letters are also 22 numbers as shown above. Since all of the prophecies concerning the antichrist are written in OT Hebrew {Like Daniel 7:8-25} or NT Koine Greek it would then seem logical that God would use one of these 2 Bible languages to identify the Name of the Beast whose letters add up to 666. One of the problems of doing this in NT Koine Greek is that the letters of their alphabet are not also numbers. And therefore you can only assign a numerical value of 22 to the 22nd letter, etc.. Using this formula you could not get any name to add up to over 250, let alone 666. You have the same problem with English and all other languages other than the Hebrew language!

NOTE: The 3 different Greek words used in Revelation 13:18b to arrive at the number 666 are the 3 different Greek words for 600 and 60 and 6 and not 6 + 6 + 6.

Will the 6th Caesar {Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius & the *6th* is NERO who ordered the execution of Paul & Peter in AD *66*} be the Beast who comes up from the Abyss {Or Hell-See Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8} in the coming Great Tribulation??

Rev 1:8,9: "I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos beacuse of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus." We know that the island of Patmos was the site of a Roman prison in the first Century and that the Apostle John was suffering in this prison because of his religious beliefs. {As per Rev 1:8,9 above} The island of Patmos is about 30 miles from the port of Ephesus in Western Turkey. History tells us that the second huge Roman persecution of Christians {The first was NERO'S PERSECUTION OF AD 64-68} occurred in the last year of the reign of Domitian Caesar which would have been from September AD 95 to September AD 96. During the last year of his rule Domitian Caesar decreed that everyone in the Roman Empire must worship idols of former Roman Caesar's or else they would be killed or put in prison. Historical documents show us that the Apostle John lived to about AD 100 and therefore would have been alive during Domitian's evil decree of September AD 95 to September of AD 96. Since we can be sure that the Apostle John would never worship an idol of a Roman Caesar it is then highly probable that John was put in prison on Patmos Isle sometime during Domitian's evil decree from September AD 95 to September AD 96.

Rev 1:10,11: "On the Lord's Day I {John} was in the spirit and I heard a loud voice {Jesus} said, 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the 7 churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatria, Sardis, Philadelphis and Laodicea." The last 6 churches are all in Western Turkey within 77 miles of Ephesus. About 50 years earlier Paul had started churches in these 7 cities. Paul always had Jewish converts in the cities where he preached since he had the habit of teaching in Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath. It was then highly probable that all 7 of these chuches had Jewish believers who were very familiar with the Hebrew language and of course knew that the 22 letters of the Jewish alphabet are also 22 numbers and also remembered the first Roman persecution by Nero or the "MAN OF SIN" about 30 years earlier when Paul & Peter and thousands of Christians were martyred because of Nero Caesar. Nero also sent Vespasian, the father of Titus and Domitian; to kill the Jews and destroy their Temple. He also killed his mother and killed his pregnant wife by kicking her in the stomach. Christian writings in the early 2nd century AD show that many Christians at that time believed that Nero Caesar {Who adds up to 666 in Hebrew} would return as the BEAST of the End-Times.

Rev 13:18: "This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight {Even in AD 96}, let him {Even in AD 96} calculate the Beast, for it is a man's number. His {Nero Caesar's} number is 666!" And so the above Scripture absolutely guarantees that anyone with spiritual wisdom and insight could figure out who the BEAST of the End-Times would be even when Revelation was first given to the churches in AD 96, and that the number of his name adds up to 666. This would of course mean that the future BEAST must have been alive before AD 96 when this Scripture was given to the churches. Nero Caesar {Whose name adds up to 666 in Hebrew} certainly qualified since he lived from Dec 15th AD 37 to June 9th, AD 68 when he was fatally wounded by his own SWORD.


Revelation 17:8b: "Those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life will be astonished when they see the beast {666}, because he once was {Alive--AD 37-68} now in AD 96 is not {Alive}, and yet will come." {During the Great Tribulation} The Beast once was {Alive before AD 96} now is not {Alive in AD 96}, and will come out of the ABYSS {Or HELL} and go to his destruction." {On the last Day-See Rev 19:20b} The fact that the ABYSS is HELL is confirmed by comparing 2 Peter 2:4 with Luke 8:30b,31: 2 Peter 2:4: "God did not spare the angels when they sinned but sent them into HELL, putting them in gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment." Luke 8:30b,31: "Many demons {Or Hell's Angels} had gone into him {A demon-possessed man}. And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them into the ABYSS! {Because they had already been in Hell or the ABYSS before!!} Also in Luke 16:22-24 we read that there was a rich man already in HELL at the time of Jesus. Now we can be absolutely certain that an evil Roman king from the city on 7 hills; who was fatally wounded by a sword *BEFORE* Revelation was written in AD 96; and whose name adds up to 666 is presently in this ABYSS or HELL!! All historical documents agree that Nero Caesar {The 6th Caesar who ordered the execution of Paul & Peter in AD 66 and whose name adds up to 666 in Hebrew} was fatally wounded by his own SWORD on June 9th AD 68. In Revelation 13:14b we learn that the False Prophet of 666 will order the building of a statue of 666 "Who was {FATALLY-See Rev 13:3} wounded by the SWORD and yet lived!" {AGAIN} Nero Caesar {Whose name adds up to 666 in Hebrew} again qualifies for this inspired clue as to the identity of the BEAST. Nero's 4-year Roman persecution began when he blamed the Christians for the burning of Rome in July, AD 64; and ended when Nero was fatally wounded by his own SWORD on June 9th, AD 68.

Almost all conservative Bible theologians agree that the 4th Beast of Daniel 7:7,19 is the *ROMAN* Empire. In Daniel 7:20,21 we learn that a little horn who is also called a *KING* in Daniel 7:24 willcome from this *ROMAN* Empire. Daniel 7:24b,25-27: “A *KING* {From the *ROMAN* Empire--Nero Caesar??} will arise…. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints. The saints will be handed over to him for a Time, Times and ½ a Time.” “But the court will sit, and his {666 or the Roman King or the Beast or Nero Caesar-See Rev 19:20,21 and 2 Thess 2:8} power will be taken away and completelydestroyed forever. *THEN* the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole Heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His Kingdom will be an everlasting Kingdom.”

Revelation 6:7,8: When the Lamb opened the 4th seal, I heard the voice of the 4th living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death {666 who will cause the death of millions} and Hades {The False Prophet who will cause millions to go to Hades by receiving the mark of 666} was following close behind him. THEY {Nero Caesar and the False Prophet} were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. Daniel 7:8,20,24 says that an evil Roman King will conquer 3 of the 10 kingdoms {which will cover one fourth of the earth??}--Russia {Combined with former Soviet Union}, China and India cover one fourth of the earth and have over one fourth of the world's population! These 3 kingdoms may object and become jealous of 666 and his False Prophet ruling every country in the world. It is also possible that Israel will attack Iran's nuclear facilities which will precipitate World War III and Russia China and India will back Iran. The following 10 powerful nations have about 50% of the world's population and about 70 % of the world's military power and certainly have the military, political and "religious" power to control and rule all the nations of the world: #1. United States #2. Russia #3. China {1.3 Billion} #4. Great Britain #5. France #6. India {1.1 Billion} #7. Germany #8. Japan #9. Brazil #10. Egypt. Brazil borders every country in South America except Chile. Egypt is the university, intellectual and theological center of Islam. After appointing 10 kings who have never before ruled {See Rev 17:12,13} in these 10 nations 666 will then have "authority over every tribe, people, language and nation" as per Rev 13:7b, from his headquarters in Rome. 666 and his False prophet will then quickly gain complete control over the radio, tv, internet, newspaper, book and magazine medias. There are some who suggest that these 10 nations will all come from Europe and will not include Russia, China, India, Japan and the USA and will therefore only have about 5 % of the world's population and about 20% of the world's military power. Daniel 7:24 confirms that the 10 kings of a revived Roman Empire also mentioned in Rev 17:12 will help 666 rule the world. However to assume that the 10 kings of these 10 end-time kingdoms must come from Europe is a false assumption since a REVIVED Roman Empire could include the Major powers of the world of the future Great Tribulation. Revelation 13:4: Men worshipped the dragon {Satan}, and they also worshipped the beast {666 or Nero Caesar} and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?

The next 5 paragraphs are an interesting SPECULATION about what might happen at the beginning of the 1260-day Great Tribulation and who possibly may be the future False Prophet of 666. The False Prophet is referred to as "HE" {Masculine Gender} 9 times in Rev 13:11-16 & Rev 19:20. And "HE" was a very "DECEPTIVE" False Prophet as shown in Rev 13:11-16 & Rev 19:20.

And so Nero Caesar with the help of the armies of the False Prophet {Obama??} and other nations aligned with him will conquer 1/4 of the world {See Rev 6:8; 13:4b} and then 666 will appoint 10 kings over 10 kingdoms to rule the world who have never before ruled {see Rev 17:12-14} and who will then take orders from 666 and his False Prophet from their headquarters in the evil city on 7 HILLS or Rome.{See Rev 17:9} Revelation 6:6: "A quart of wheat for a day's wages!" This phrase can also be translated "A loaf of bread for a day's wages." This event will occur at the coming of the black horse rider {Rev 6:5} which will take place just before or at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Because of the world's present economic crises the majority of people in the 40 poorest counties now have to pay a full day's wages for a loaf of bread as per Rev 6:6. And if the world experiences a world-wide depression this event could occur in over 100 countries. The world economic crises is rapidly accelarating. Many countries are far worse off than people in the USA during the Great Depression when there was 20 % unemployment. The world economic crises is rapidly accelarating. There are now 40 countries with unemployment rates of over 30 % and this should rapidly increase. And then the world will certainly be looking for an Economic Savior such as 666 and his very deceptive False Prophet. They will be looking for someone who promises CHANGE!! If the Great Tribulation would begin in the near future is there a well-known, powerful world leader that may qualify to be the deceptive False Prophet of 666 who will promise CHANGE you can believe in!! Will this powerful world leader try to bankrupt the USA which will in turn cause a worldwide depression and cause the price of a loaf of bread to cost a full day's wages??? The False Prophet is featured in Revelation 13:11-17; 16:13 19:20 & 20:10.
Do Obama's religious beliefs qualify him as a False Prophet?? Some insight into Obama's "Christianity" comes from an interview he gave in 2004 to Chicago Sun-Times religion editor Cathleen Falsani for her book, "The God Factor: Inside the Spiritual Lives of Public People." "I'm rooted in the Christian tradition," said Obama. He then adds something most Christians will see as universalism: "I believe there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people." Jesus says of Himself, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." That sounds exclusive, but Obama says it depends on how this verse is heard. According to Falsani, Obama thinks that "all people of faith -- Christians, Jews, Muslims, animists, everyone -- know the same God. "Obama doesn't believe he, or anyone else, will go to hell. But he's not sure he'll be going to heaven, either." Obama told a crowd at Hocking College that he believes the Sermon on the Mount JUSTIFIES his support for legal recognoition of same-sex unions?? Obama approves of same sex romantic and sexual relationships as do his former church, his pastor, and his former (So-called} Christian denomination?? The False Prophet should be hugely popular world wide. Interesting fact: Obama has greater worldwide popularity than any leader in modern history, according to a recent poll in Reader's Digest. Jesus is our Messiah and is called the LAMB 27 times in the book of Revelation. The False Prophet is someone who is like a LAMB according to Rev 13:11b. People from all over the world have already given Obama this interesting nickname "THE MESSIAH"!! The False Prophet will certainly teach that you can have your cake and eat it too, and that you will not go to hell if you receive the Mark of the Beast; allowing you to buy or sell everything. However, Rev 14:9-11; 19:20 & 20:10 confirm that he and all who receive the Mark of the Beast will be tormented day and night for ever and ever in Hell!
NOTE: There are many statues of the exact likeness of Nero Caesar including a 151 foot statue in the "Golden House" in Rome. The statue of Liberty {Without pedestal} is also exactly 151 feet high... hmmm. At the beginning of Great Tribulation the False Prophet of 666, Rev 13:14: "Will order the people of the earth to set up a statue in honor of the beast who was wounded {Fatally-Rev 13:3} by the SWORD and yet lived!" {Again} This staue of the Beast will be the "exact likeness" of Nero Caesar and could possibly be seen on World Wide TV so that people of all nations will be able to worship this statue as per Rev 13:15b. Obama's Air Force 1 plane just had a photo op with the Statue of Liberty....Hmmm.... The face of the Statue of Liberty could easily be changed to look like Nero Caesar within a week!
666 is called a BEAST 36 {6X6 times in Revelation and the False Prophet is also called a "BEAST" in Rev 13:11. Obama has nicknamed his presidential limousine "THE BEAST"!! In Revelation 13:11 the False Prophet is called the BEAST of the {PRESENT} EARTH. Whereas all true Christians are looking forward to a new heaaven and NEW EARTH as per 2 Peter 3:13: "We are looking forward to a new heaven and a NEW EARTH the home of righteousness." {See Rev 21:1} Obama is the all-time world's greatest champion of EARTH day and saving the PRESENT EARTH from Global Warming, Geeenhouse gasses, coal buring and carbon emissions and he may bankrupt the world in trying to achieve these goals.
In Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 666 is called an "ABOMINATION". In a recent Middle East tour Obama declared that the USA was "NOT a Christian nation!" I would tend to agree with Obama since with dominating majorities in the House, Senate and Supreme Court Obama is rapidly and surely turning this nation into an "OBAMANATION"!! WARNING: The possible identity of the future False Prophet of 666 is just an interesting SPECULATION.
" Revelation 7:9,14,4: "There before me was a great multitutude that no one could count, from EVERY nation, tribe, people and language {The Full number of Gentiles} standing before the throne in front of the Lamb....These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."....."Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 {Evangelists} from the 12 tribes of Israel. It is possible that only Jews will be saved during the last months of the Great Tribulation after the Full number of Gentiles has come in.

"Babylon" is called a CITY 7 times in Revelation, chapter 18, and a SEAPORT in Rev 18:17-19. Peter was inspired to call Rome "Babylon" in I Peter 5:13. Rome is a CITY and a SEAPORT built on 7 HILLS! Babylon and Jerusalem are not seaports and are not built on 7 hills!

Rev 13:14-17: The False Prophet deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was {FATALLY-Rev 13:3} wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast {666}, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast {NERO CAESAR} or the number of his name {666}. And God will supply all the needs of His faithful and corageous Tribulation saints just as He miraculously supplied all the needs of the Israelites for 40 years in the wilderness. {See Matt 6:31-34}

Rev 13:5-10: The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 {30-day} months {Or 1260 days or time, times and 1/2 a time-See Dan 7:25 & Dan 12:1,2,6b,7b}..... He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb.... This call for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. Matt 24:9-12...Matt 24:29-31: Jesus says, "Then {During the 42-month Great Tribulation} you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by ALL nations because of Me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved... Immediately after the distress of those {1260} days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky.' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the **CLOUDS**{See Rev 1:7; Mark 14:62 & I Thess 4:16,17} of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud **TRUMPET**{See Rev 10:7; 11:15-18; I Cor 15:51,52; I Thess 4:16} call, and they will gather His elect from the 4 winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." {Mark 13:27 adds, "From the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

There will be 2 Comings of Jesus on the same Last Day: The first above was *FOR* His saints and then after the Marraige Feast of the Lamb Jesus will come *WITH* His saints as per Rev 19:6-8; 11,14,19-21: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns, Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him glory! For the Wedding of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready, fine linen, bright and clean was given her to wear.... I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose Rider is called Faithful and True... The armies of Heaven were following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean... Then I saw a beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the Rider on the horse and His army {See Rev 17:14 & Jude 14,15}. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs and his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The two of them were thrown ALIVE into the fiery lake of burning sulfur {See 2 Thess 2:8}. The rest of them were killed by the sword that came out of the mouth of the Rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


WILL THE CITY ON 7 HILLS OR ROME BE THE END-TIME BABYLON?? AND WHO
ARE THE 7 KINGS FROM THE CITY BUILT ON 7 HILLS??

Most Bible scholars believe that the book of First Peter was written shortly after the beginning of Nero’s Roman persecution of Christians in AD 64 because of I Peter 4:12,13 & 5:8,9. We know that Peter and his wife were living in Rome at this time. Peter was inspired to write in I Peter 5:13: “She {Peter’s wife} who is in *BABYLON* {Nickname for *ROME*!} sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.” Apparently some Christians including Peter were inspired to call ROME “BABYLON” after Nero’s terrible persecution of Christians starting in AD 64. This is very interesting since the evil city of the End-Times is called “BABYLON” 6 times in Revelation 14:8; 16:19; 17:5; 18:2,10,21.

Ancient Babylon Had destroyed God's Holy Temple and God's Holy City, Jerusalem; and killed, exiled and persecuted God's people for 70 years. Actually all encyclopedias agree that Babylon was completely evacuated in 275 BC and completely destroyed by 141 BC. The Wikipedia encyclopedia states, "By 141 BC, when the Parthian Empire took over the region, Babylon was in complete desolation and obscurity." The only question that remains is: Was Babylon rebuilt so that there could be people living in Babylon around AD 65 when Peter wrote 1 Peter 5:13??? Which leads us to the promises of God in Jeremiah 50:1-3,13: This is the word the Lord spoke through Jeremiah concerning Babylon.."Babylon will be captured... A nation from the north will attack her and lay waste her land. No one will live in it; both men and animals will flee away!" Jeremiah 52:52:61-64: When you get to Babylon, see that you read all these words aloud. Then say, "O Lord, you have said you will destroy this place, so that neither man nor animal will live in it; IT WILL BE DESOLATE FOREVER When you finish readiing this scroll, tie a stone to it and throw it into the Euphrates. Then say, "So will Babylon SINK TO RISE NO MORE because of the disaster I will bring upon her." And God ALWAYS keeps His promises. And God kept His promise for about 2284 years; since Babylon is still a pile of rubble to this very day, and will remain that way until the
Last Day of the Planet Earth; for God always keeps His promises.

“Babylon” {Nicknamed Rome by Peter} is a “GREAT SEAPORT” in Rev18:17-19; JUST LIKE ROME and UNLIKE Babylon whose ruins are NOW 4 miles from the very shallow Euphrates River; or Jerusalem which is2000 to 3000 feet above sea level and 35 miles from the Mediterranean Sea. Babylon is also completely FLAT whereas the End-Time "Babylon" will be a city built on 7 Hills JUST LIKE ROME!! Rev 17:18: “The woman you saw {Rev 17:3--Who sits with the Beast with 7 heads} is the great *CITY* {Rome--nicknamed Babylon in I Peter 5:13--See Rev 17:5a} that will rule over the kings of the earth.” {During the Great Tribulation}

Rev 17:9-11: “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The 7 heads are 7 hills on which the woman {Or city of Rome} sits.” Rome is a city built on 7 HILLS!! They {The 7 Heads} are also 7 KINGS {From the city on 7 hills or Rome}. Five {Of these 7 KINGS} have fallen {Or died before AD 96}, one {the 6th KING} *IS* {Or reigning when Revelation was written in AD 96}, the other {or 7th KING} has not yet come, but when he {The 7th KING} does come, he must remain for for a little while. {Possibly the False Prophet of 666 {Or Black Horse Rider} who will be anointed by Satan just before the coming of the 8th KING {Or Pale Horse Rider} who ruled before as one of the 7 Kings} The beast {Nero Caesar who once was {Alive from
Dec 15, AD 37 to June 9, AD 68}, and NOW {In AD 96} is not {Alive} is an 8th KING. He belongs to the 7 {KINGS}, because He once was {Alive-AD 37-68} NOW {In AD 96} is not {Alive}, and yet will come {1260 days before the Last Day}."

WHO ARE OR WILL BE THE 8 KINGS OF REV 17:10,11??

ROME APPOINTED THE JEWISH KINGS AFTER THEY CONQUERED ISRAEL IN 63 BC AND THE 7 KINGS OF REV 13:1B all had "blasphemous names" so we can assume that they were evil kings who had killed or persecuted Jesus and His followers. And so the first 3 EVIL KINGS {Who are all called KINGS in God's Word{See Matt 2:1; Mark 6:25,26 & Acts 12:1} were all Israeli KINGS {who had killed or persecuted Jesus and His followers} appointed by the evil city on 7 hills or Rome.


AND SO THE 8 KINGS WERE OR WILL BE:


** {#1} ** Herod the Great who tried to kill the baby Jesus: Rev 12:3-5: "Another sign appeared in Heaven : An enormous red DRAGON {Or Satan-See Rev 12:9} with 7 heads {Or 7 KINGS-See Rev 17:10a}... and 7 crowns on his {7} heads {Satan crowns the 7 kings whereas 666 crowns the 10 horns}. The DRAGON {Or Satan} stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her Child the moment he was born {Thru his first evil king or Herod the Great as per Matt 2:13b,16!!} She gave birth to a Son {Jesus} a male Child, who will rule the nations with an iron scepter!!"

**{#2}** Herod who killed John the Baptist and ridiculed and tortured Jesus {See Matt 14:1-12; Luke 23:7-11}

**{#3}** Herod Antipas who killed the Apostle James and tried to kill Peter. {See Acts 12:1-5,19-23}

**{#4}** Nero Caesar who will come again as the 8th KING who will be the BEAST of the End-Times.

**{#5}** Titus Caesar who killed thousands of Christians when he destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70. Titus is also mentioned as a "Prince" in Daniel 9:26. Titus Caesar was the oldest son of Vespasian Caesar who was Caesar from Dec AD 69 to AD 79; and therefore heir and Crown *PRINCE* to the throne in Rome and was Caesar from AD 79 to AD 81.

**{#6**}** Domitian Caesar the 6th KING {"NOW IS"} was ruling in AD 96, and decreed in the last year of his reign {Sept AD 95 to Sept AD 96} that everyone must worship former Roman Caesars {Like Nero} or be killed and put in prison.{Like the Apostle John who was living in Ephesus at that time.}

**{#7}** Possibly the False Prophet of 666 who will be crowned the 7th evil King of Rome by Satan shortly before the coming of the:

**{8th}** KING or Nero Caesar {The End-Time Beast or antichrist}; who ruled before as one of the **7 KINGS** The 4TH & 8TH KING will come up up from the Abyss or Hell exactly 1260 days before the last Day to rule from the evil city on 7 hills or Rome.

Rev 17:6: “The woman {ROME} will be drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bear testimony to Jesus.” While in Rev 13:7 we learn that the BEAST will be given “power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.” And in Rev 13:15b we read that 666 will “cause all who refuse to worship his statue to be killed.” We must therefore conclude that the evil city “on 7 hills” or Rome will be the HEADQUARTERS of 666 during the Great Tribulation.

The BEAST will very quickly conquer 1/4th of the world with many miracles {See Rev 6:8; 13:4} and will then appoint 10 Kings who have never before ruled over the 10 most powerful nations of the world {See Rev 17:12-14,17}. The following 10 powerful nations have about 50% of the world’s population and ABOUT 70% OF THE WORLD'S MILITARY POWER and certainly have the military, political and “religious” power to control and rule all the nations of the world: #1. United States #2. Russia #3. China {1.3 Billion} #4. Great Britain #5. France #6. India {1.1 Billion} #7. Germany #8. Japan #9. Brazil #10. Egypt. Brazil borders every nation in South America except for Chile. Egypt is the university, intellectual and theological center of Islam. And then 666 will have “authority over every tribe, people, language and nation” as per Rev 13:7b, from his headquarters in the evil city built on 7 hills or Rome.


Hi,

Enclosed is a Bible study of the 7 Bible clues which reveal the identity of the coming antichrist of the Great Tribulation and could Obama possibly be the future False Prophet of 666. Jesus is our bestest Friend and only Jesus and His Father gives Endless Love. Hoping for your comments and feedback. My phone is 863-651-4426.

Your eternal friend in Jesus,

Richard

WHAT ARE THE 7 BIBLE CLUES WHICH REVEAL THE IDENTITY OF 666??


Revelation 13:17b,18: "The mark of the beast {Or antichrist}is the *NAME* of the Beast or the number of *HIS NAME*. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, *LET HIM* calculate the number of the Beast {Even in AD 96 when Revelation was written}, for it is a man's number {Or "Number of a MAN"}. *HIS* number is *666*." God has promised in the above inspired passage that any saint {Even in AD 96--which implies that the name was known in AD 96} with spiritual wisdom and insight may calculate the name of the beast which is a *MAN'S NAME* and adds up to 666.

In Thess 2:3 the Beast of the End-Times is called a "*MAN* of sin or lawlessness" or very SINFUL MAN and therefore the name of the Beast which adds up to 666 is a *MAN'S* name which is also confirmed in Rev 13:17b,18 above. Therefore, the NAME of the Beast which adds up to 666 is a sinful *MAN'S NAME* and could not be the name of a woman or a city, country, computer or Satan, etc.. 666 is also identified with a MASCULINE pronoun 28 times in God's Word which we will show later.

Rev 13:16,17: "He {The False Prophet} forced everyone... to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead. No one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast {Nero Caesar??} or the number of his name {666}. The antichrist is called a "BEAST" 36 {6x6} times in Revelation and the BEAST is a much better name than antichrist since antichrist is mentioned 4 times in God's Word {I John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7} and each time the word encompasses all who are against Christ. I JOHN 2:18: "Even now many antichrists have come." Surely all who receive the mark of the Beast are antichrists.

666 is referred to in the MASCULINE gender 28 times and the Beast is never referred to in the feminine or neuter gender. It is interesting to note that if the Beast of the end-times will be a religious organization, country or city it would be referred to in the female or neuter gender!!! The masculine pronouns used for the Beast are "HIS" 11 times: Rev 13:1, 5,16b,18b; 14:9,11; 17:7b; 19:2; 20:4(2X) & Daniel 7:26. "HE" 10 times: Rev 13:1;6a,7a,7; 17:8b; 17:11; 2 Thess 2:6; Daniel 7:24,25 & Daniel 9:27. "HIM" 5 times: Rev 13:4b; 19:20; 2 Thess 2:6; Daniel 7:25 & Daniel 9:27. "HIMSELF" 2 times in 2 Thess 2:4.

Actually there are **7 BIBLE CLUES** that show who the BEAST of the future 1260-day Tribulation will be. By an amazing coincidence all 7 Bible clues can be applied to Nero Caesar!!

{{1}} The BEAST will be a "MAN OF SIN" or very sinful MAN as per 2 Thess 2:3 above.

{{2}} The number of this sinful man's name is 666 as per Rev 13:16-18. The Bible was written by 40 divinely inspired Hebrews in Hebrew and Greek so then it is highly probable that this man's name adds up to 666 in Hebrew or Greek. Nero Caesar's name adds up to 666 in Hebrew which we will show later in this Bible study.

{{3}} This sinful man whose name adds up to 666 DIED BEFORE AD 96 when Revelation was written.{See Rev 17:8 below} We will show later why Revelation was written between Sept AD 95 and Sept AD 96. Nero Caesar lived from December 15th, AD 37 to June 9th AD 68.

{{4}} This sinful man who was alive and then died before AD 96 was FATALLY WOUNDED by a sword wound to his head. Nero Caesar committed suicide with a sword wound to his head on June 9th, AD 68. {See Rev 13:3 and Rev 13:14 below}

{{5}} This very sinful man who died before AD 96 was a KING in the Roman Empire as per Daniel 7:24. There were 11 Roman Kings or Caesars who died before AD 96 including the 6th Caesar who killed Paul and Peter in AD 66; and whose name adds up to 666 in Hebrew. Domitian Caesar was the 12th Caesar who was alive when Revelation was written in AD 96.

{{6}} The beast is also called an 8th KING who ruled before AD 96 as one of 7 KINGS crowned by the city on 7 hills. {See Rev 17:9-11} The identity of these 8 KINGS will be discussed later in this article.

{{7}} This very sinful ROMAN KING whose name adds up to 666 and who was fatally wounded by a sword before AD 96, will "COME UP FROM THE *ABYSS* or *HELL* as per Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8. We know that the ABYSS is HELL by comparing 2 Peter 2:4 with Luke 8:30b,31. We can be sure that Nero Caesar is now in the Abyss or Hell since he killed Paul and Peter and thousands of Christians and sent Vespasian {the father of Titus and Domitian Caesar} to kill the Jews and destroy their Temple. The MAN OF SIN or Nero also killed his own mother and killed his pregnant wife by kicking her in the stomach. Inscriptions have been found in Ephesus in which Nero is called "Almighty God" and "Savior. In Revelation 13:8a we learn that all the unsaved inhabitants of the world will worship the Beast. Nero and Caligula "abandoned all reserve" in promoting emperor worship - they were the only two Roman Caesars who demanded divine honors while still alive. Nero claimed to be the sun-god Apollo. In 2 Thess 2:4 we read that the "Man of Sin" will proclaim that he is God!

Revelation 17:8: The beast, which you saw, once was {alive}, Now {in AD 96} is not {alive} and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book life.. .. will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was {Before AD 96}, now {In AD 96} is not {Alive} and yet will come. Rev 13:14: He {The False Prophet} will order the inhabitants of the earth to set up an image in honor of the beast who was {FATALLY-Rev 13:3} wounded by the sword and yet lived." Rev 13:3: One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound. but the fatal wound had been HEALED!! The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

When I was a missionary in Israel I studied the Hebrew language. One of the first things that you learn when you study the OT Ancient Hebrew language {Which is also the language of Israel today!} is that the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet ALSO represent 22 numbers! When you read Psalm 119 you will note that the 176 sentences are divided into 22 sections; each section with 8 sentences or verses praising the Word of God. These 22 sections are each headed by one of the letters in the hebrew alphabet in the exact same order as shown below. The ancient Hebrew language {Which is exactly the same as the modern Hebrew language} frequently used the letters of their alphabet to designate NUMBERS IN THE OT as follows:

ALEPH=1. BETH=2. GIMEL=3. DALET=4. HE=5. VAV=6. ZAYIN=7. CHETH=8. TETH=9. YODH=10. KAPH=20. LAMED=30. MEM=40. NUN=50. SAMEKH=60. AYIN=70. PE=80. TSADHE=90. KOPH=100. RESH=200. SHIN=300. TAV=400.

NOTE: Most vowel sounds excpt "O" {VAV} are not used as letters in Hebrew. These vowel sounds are designated by dots and dashes under their *PRECEDING* consonants. In Hebrew "N" is added on the end of all foreign names ending in "O". Therefore, the foreign name of Nero would be "NERON" in Hebrew. The name Nero Caesar would be pronounced Neron Kaysar in Hebrew. The "E" in Neron and the 2 "A" sounds in Kaysar {There is no "C" in Hebrew} are designated by dots and dashes under their preceding consonants and therefore are not letters in the 22 letter Hebrew alphabet, and so have no numerical value.

Neron in Hebrew would use 4 letters with numerical value: N-R-O-N and Kaysar in Hebrew would use 3 letters with numerical value: K-S-R. There would be a dot under the first N to show the "E" sound in NEron There would also be 2 dots under the "K" to show the "AY" sound in KAYsar and a dash under the "S" to show the "AH" sound in KaySAHr. The 4 letters with numerical value in NERON would be {SEE TABLE ABOVE} N = 50; R = RESH = 200; O = VAV = 6; and N = NUN = 50 and 50+20+6+50 equals 306. The 3 letters with numerical value in "KAYSAR would be K = KOPH = 100; S = SAMEKH = 60; and R = RESH =200 and 100+60+200 equals 360. And so the numerical value of Nero in Hebrew is 306 and the numerical value of Caesar in Hebrew is 360, and therefore the numerical value of Nero Caesar is 306+360 or exactly *666*!

There is a very interesting footnote in the revised Standard Version concerning the number 666 which states that some ancient manuscripts have the number **616** which *DOUBLY* confirms that Nero Caesar may be the Anti-Christ!! You will note that the Hebrew language adds an "N" to all foreign names eding in "O". Now "N" or "NUN" in Hebrew has a numerical value of **50**!! and so if you decided not to add the last "N" in NERON then Nero Caesar would add up to exactly **616** in Hebrew. I think you will admit that this is an absolutely amazing coincidence!!

Any honest Hebrew language scholar will confirm that the letters of Nero Caesar's name add up to 666 in the Hebrew language whose 22 letters are also 22 numbers as shown above. Since all of the prophecies concerning the antichrist are written in OT Hebrew {Like Daniel 7:8-25} or NT Koine Greek it would then seem logical that God would use one of these 2 Bible languages to identify the Name of the Beast whose letters add up to 666. One of the problems of doing this in NT Koine Greek is that the letters of their alphabet are not also numbers. And therefore you can only assign a numerical value of 22 to the 22nd letter, etc.. Using this formula you could not get any name to add up to over 250, let alone 666. You have the same problem with English and all other languages other than the Hebrew language!

NOTE: The 3 different Greek words used in Revelation 13:18b to arrive at the number 666 are the 3 different Greek words for 600 and 60 and 6 and not 6 + 6 + 6.

Will the 6th Caesar {Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius & the *6th* is NERO who ordered the execution of Paul & Peter in AD *66*} be the Beast who comes up from the Abyss {Or Hell-See Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8} in the coming Great Tribulation??

Rev 1:8,9: "I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos beacuse of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus." We know that the island of Patmos was the site of a Roman prison in the first Century and that the Apostle John was suffering in this prison because of his religious beliefs. {As per Rev 1:8,9 above} The island of Patmos is about 30 miles from the port of Ephesus in Western Turkey. History tells us that the second huge Roman persecution of Christians {The first was NERO'S PERSECUTION OF AD 64-68} occurred in the last year of the reign of Domitian Caesar which would have been from September AD 95 to September AD 96. During the last year of his rule Domitian Caesar decreed that everyone in the Roman Empire must worship idols of former Roman Caesar's or else they would be killed or put in prison. Historical documents show us that the Apostle John lived to about AD 100 and therefore would have been alive during Domitian's evil decree of September AD 95 to September of AD 96. Since we can be sure that the Apostle John would never worship an idol of a Roman Caesar it is then highly probable that John was put in prison on Patmos Isle sometime during Domitian's evil decree from September AD 95 to September AD 96.

Rev 1:10,11: "On the Lord's Day I {John} was in the spirit and I heard a loud voice {Jesus} said, 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the 7 churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatria, Sardis, Philadelphis and Laodicea." The last 6 churches are all in Western Turkey within 77 miles of Ephesus. About 50 years earlier Paul had started churches in these 7 cities. Paul always had Jewish converts in the cities where he preached since he had the habit of teaching in Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath. It was then highly probable that all 7 of these chuches had Jewish believers who were very familiar with the Hebrew language and of course knew that the 22 letters of the Jewish alphabet are also 22 numbers and also remembered the first Roman persecution by Nero or the "MAN OF SIN" about 30 years earlier when Paul & Peter and thousands of Christians were martyred because of Nero Caesar. Nero also sent Vespasian, the father of Titus and Domitian; to kill the Jews and destroy their Temple. He also killed his mother and killed his pregnant wife by kicking her in the stomach. Christian writings in the early 2nd century AD show that many Christians at that time believed that Nero Caesar {Who adds up to 666 in Hebrew} would return as the BEAST of the End-Times.

Rev 13:18: "This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight {Even in AD 96}, let him {Even in AD 96} calculate the Beast, for it is a man's number. His {Nero Caesar's} number is 666!" And so the above Scripture absolutely guarantees that anyone with spiritual wisdom and insight could figure out who the BEAST of the End-Times would be even when Revelation was first given to the churches in AD 96, and that the number of his name adds up to 666. This would of course mean that the future BEAST must have been alive before AD 96 when this Scripture was given to the churches. Nero Caesar {Whose name adds up to 666 in Hebrew} certainly qualified since he lived from Dec 15th AD 37 to June 9th, AD 68 when he was fatally wounded by his own SWORD.


Revelation 17:8b: "Those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life will be astonished when they see the beast {666}, because he once was {Alive--AD 37-68} now in AD 96 is not {Alive}, and yet will come." {During the Great Tribulation} The Beast once was {Alive before AD 96} now is not {Alive in AD 96}, and will come out of the ABYSS {Or HELL} and go to his destruction." {On the last Day-See Rev 19:20b} The fact that the ABYSS is HELL is confirmed by comparing 2 Peter 2:4 with Luke 8:30b,31: 2 Peter 2:4: "God did not spare the angels when they sinned but sent them into HELL, putting them in gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment." Luke 8:30b,31: "Many demons {Or Hell's Angels} had gone into him {A demon-possessed man}. And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them into the ABYSS! {Because they had already been in Hell or the ABYSS before!!} Also in Luke 16:22-24 we read that there was a rich man already in HELL at the time of Jesus. Now we can be absolutely certain that an evil Roman king from the city on 7 hills; who was fatally wounded by a sword *BEFORE* Revelation was written in AD 96; and whose name adds up to 666 is presently in this ABYSS or HELL!! All historical documents agree that Nero Caesar {The 6th Caesar who ordered the execution of Paul & Peter in AD 66 and whose name adds up to 666 in Hebrew} was fatally wounded by his own SWORD on June 9th AD 68. In Revelation 13:14b we learn that the False Prophet of 666 will order the building of a statue of 666 "Who was {FATALLY-See Rev 13:3} wounded by the SWORD and yet lived!" {AGAIN} Nero Caesar {Whose name adds up to 666 in Hebrew} again qualifies for this inspired clue as to the identity of the BEAST. Nero's 4-year Roman persecution began when he blamed the Christians for the burning of Rome in July, AD 64; and ended when Nero was fatally wounded by his own SWORD on June 9th, AD 68.

Almost all conservative Bible theologians agree that the 4th Beast of Daniel 7:7,19 is the *ROMAN* Empire. In Daniel 7:20,21 we learn that a little horn who is also called a *KING* in Daniel 7:24 willcome from this *ROMAN* Empire. Daniel 7:24b,25-27: “A *KING* {From the *ROMAN* Empire--Nero Caesar??} will arise…. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints. The saints will be handed over to him for a Time, Times and ½ a Time.” “But the court will sit, and his {666 or the Roman King or the Beast or Nero Caesar-See Rev 19:20,21 and 2 Thess 2:8} power will be taken away and completelydestroyed forever. *THEN* the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole Heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His Kingdom will be an everlasting Kingdom.”

Revelation 6:7,8: When the Lamb opened the 4th seal, I heard the voice of the 4th living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death {666 who will cause the death of millions} and Hades {The False Prophet who will cause millions to go to Hades by receiving the mark of 666} was following close behind him. THEY {Nero Caesar and the False Prophet} were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. Daniel 7:8,20,24 says that an evil Roman King will conquer 3 of the 10 kingdoms {which will cover one fourth of the earth??}--Russia {Combined with former Soviet Union}, China and India cover one fourth of the earth and have over one fourth of the world's population! These 3 kingdoms may object and become jealous of 666 and his False Prophet ruling every country in the world. It is also possible that Israel will attack Iran's nuclear facilities which will precipitate World War III and Russia China and India will back Iran. The following 10 powerful nations have about 50% of the world's population and about 70 % of the world's military power and certainly have the military, political and "religious" power to control and rule all the nations of the world: #1. United States #2. Russia #3. China {1.3 Billion} #4. Great Britain #5. France #6. India {1.1 Billion} #7. Germany #8. Japan #9. Brazil #10. Egypt. Brazil borders every country in South America except Chile. Egypt is the university, intellectual and theological center of Islam. After appointing 10 kings who have never before ruled {See Rev 17:12,13} in these 10 nations 666 will then have "authority over every tribe, people, language and nation" as per Rev 13:7b, from his headquarters in Rome. 666 and his False prophet will then quickly gain complete control over the radio, tv, internet, newspaper, book and magazine medias. There are some who suggest that these 10 nations will all come from Europe and will not include Russia, China, India, Japan and the USA and will therefore only have about 5 % of the world's population and about 20% of the world's military power. Daniel 7:24 confirms that the 10 kings of a revived Roman Empire also mentioned in Rev 17:12 will help 666 rule the world. However to assume that the 10 kings of these 10 end-time kingdoms must come from Europe is a false assumption since a REVIVED Roman Empire could include the Major powers of the world of the future Great Tribulation. Revelation 13:4: Men worshipped the dragon {Satan}, and they also worshipped the beast {666 or Nero Caesar} and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?

The next 5 paragraphs are an interesting SPECULATION about what might happen at the beginning of the 1260-day Great Tribulation and who possibly may be the future False Prophet of 666. The False Prophet is referred to as "HE" {Masculine Gender} 9 times in Rev 13:11-16 & Rev 19:20. And "HE" was a very "DECEPTIVE" False Prophet as shown in Rev 13:11-16 & Rev 19:20.

And so Nero Caesar with the help of the armies of the False Prophet {Obama??} and other nations aligned with him will conquer 1/4 of the world {See Rev 6:8; 13:4b} and then 666 will appoint 10 kings over 10 kingdoms to rule the world who have never before ruled {see Rev 17:12-14} and who will then take orders from 666 and his False Prophet from their headquarters in the evil city on 7 HILLS or Rome.{See Rev 17:9} Revelation 6:6: "A quart of wheat for a day's wages!" This phrase can also be translated "A loaf of bread for a day's wages." This event will occur at the coming of the black horse rider {Rev 6:5} which will take place just before or at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Because of the world's present economic crises the majority of people in the 40 poorest counties now have to pay a full day's wages for a loaf of bread as per Rev 6:6. And if the world experiences a world-wide depression this event could occur in over 100 countries. The world economic crises is rapidly accelarating. Many countries are far worse off than people in the USA during the Great Depression when there was 20 % unemployment. The world economic crises is rapidly accelarating. There are now 40 countries with unemployment rates of over 30 % and this should rapidly increase. And then the world will certainly be looking for an Economic Savior such as 666 and his very deceptive False Prophet. They will be looking for someone who promises CHANGE!! If the Great Tribulation would begin in the near future is there a well-known, powerful world leader that may qualify to be the deceptive False Prophet of 666 who will promise CHANGE you can believe in!! Will this powerful world leader try to bankrupt the USA which will in turn cause a worldwide depression and cause the price of a loaf of bread to cost a full day's wages??? The False Prophet is featured in Revelation 13:11-17; 16:13 19:20 & 20:10.
Do Obama's religious beliefs qualify him as a False Prophet?? Some insight into Obama's "Christianity" comes from an interview he gave in 2004 to Chicago Sun-Times religion editor Cathleen Falsani for her book, "The God Factor: Inside the Spiritual Lives of Public People." "I'm rooted in the Christian tradition," said Obama. He then adds something most Christians will see as universalism: "I believe there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people." Jesus says of Himself, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." That sounds exclusive, but Obama says it depends on how this verse is heard. According to Falsani, Obama thinks that "all people of faith -- Christians, Jews, Muslims, animists, everyone -- know the same God. "Obama doesn't believe he, or anyone else, will go to hell. But he's not sure he'll be going to heaven, either." Obama told a crowd at Hocking College that he believes the Sermon on the Mount JUSTIFIES his support for legal recognoition of same-sex unions?? Obama approves of same sex romantic and sexual relationships as do his former church, his pastor, and his former (So-called} Christian denomination?? The False Prophet should be hugely popular world wide. Interesting fact: Obama has greater worldwide popularity than any leader in modern history according to a recent poll in Reader's Digest and was also awarded the Nobel Peace Prize even though he did nothing to deserve it. Jesus is our Messiah and the Prince of Peace and is called the LAMB 27 times in the book of Revelation. The False Prophet is someone who is like a LAMB according to Rev 13:11b. People from all over the world have already given Obama this interesting nickname "THE MESSIAH"!! The False Prophet will certainly teach that you can have your cake and eat it too, and that you will not go to hell if you receive the Mark of the Beast; allowing you to buy or sell everything. However, Rev 14:9-11; 19:20 & 20:10 confirm that he and all who receive the Mark of the Beast will be tormented day and night for ever and ever in Hell!
NOTE: There are many statues of the exact likeness of Nero Caesar including a 151 foot statue in the "Golden House" in Rome. The statue of Liberty {Without pedestal} is also exactly 151 feet high... hmmm. At the beginning of Great Tribulation the False Prophet of 666, Rev 13:14: "Will order the people of the earth to set up a statue in honor of the beast who was wounded {Fatally-Rev 13:3} by the SWORD and yet lived!" {Again} This staue of the Beast will be the "exact likeness" of Nero Caesar and could possibly be seen on World Wide TV so that people of all nations will be able to worship this statue as per Rev 13:15b. Obama's Air Force 1 plane just had a photo op with the Statue of Liberty....Hmmm.... The face of the Statue of Liberty could easily be changed to look like Nero Caesar within a week!
666 is called a BEAST 36 {6X6 times in Revelation and the False Prophet is also called a "BEAST" in Rev 13:11. Obama has nicknamed his presidential limousine "THE BEAST"!! In Revelation 13:11 the False Prophet is called the BEAST of the {PRESENT} EARTH. Whereas all true Christians are looking forward to a new heaven and NEW EARTH as per 2 Peter 3:13: "We are looking forward to a new heaven and a NEW EARTH the home of righteousness." {See Rev 21:1} Obama is the all-time world's greatest champion of EARTH day and saving the PRESENT EARTH from Global Warming, Geeenhouse gasses, coal burning and carbon emissions and he may bankrupt the world in trying to achieve these goals.
In Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 666 is called an "ABOMINATION". In a recent Middle East tour Obama declared that the USA was "NOT a Christian nation!" I would tend to agree with Obama since with dominating majorities in the House, Senate and Supreme Court Obama is rapidly and surely turning this nation into an "OBAMANATION"!! WARNING: The possible identity of the future False Prophet of 666 is just an interesting SPECULATION.
" Revelation 7:9,14,4: "There before me was a great multitutude that no one could count, from EVERY nation, tribe, people and language {The Full number of Gentiles} standing before the throne in front of the Lamb....These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."....."Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 {Evangelists} from the 12 tribes of Israel. It is possible that only Jews will be saved during the last months of the Great Tribulation after the Full number of Gentiles has come in.

"Babylon" is called a CITY 7 times in Revelation, chapter 18, and a SEAPORT in Rev 18:17-19. Peter was inspired to call Rome "Babylon" in I Peter 5:13. Rome is a CITY and a SEAPORT built on 7 HILLS! Babylon and Jerusalem are not seaports and are not built on 7 hills!

Rev 13:14-17: The False Prophet deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was {FATALLY-Rev 13:3} wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast {666}, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast {NERO CAESAR} or the number of his name {666}. And God will supply all the needs of His faithful and corageous Tribulation saints just as He miraculously supplied all the needs of the Israelites for 40 years in the wilderness. {See Matt 6:31-34}

Rev 13:5-10: The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 {30-day} months {Or 1260 days or time, times and 1/2 a time-See Dan 7:25 & Dan 12:1,2,6b,7b}..... He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb.... This call for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. Matt 24:9-12...Matt 24:29-31: Jesus says, "Then {During the 42-month Great Tribulation} you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by ALL nations because of Me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved... Immediately after the distress of those {1260} days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky.' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the **CLOUDS**{See Rev 1:7; Mark 14:62 & I Thess 4:16,17} of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud **TRUMPET**{See Rev 10:7; 11:15-18; I Cor 15:51,52; I Thess 4:16} call, and they will gather His elect from the 4 winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." {Mark 13:27 adds, "From the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

There will be 2 Comings of Jesus on the same Last Day: The first above was *FOR* His saints and then after the Marraige Feast of the Lamb Jesus will come *WITH* His saints as per Rev 19:6-8; 11,14,19-21: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns, Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him glory! For the Wedding of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready, fine linen, bright and clean was given her to wear.... I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose Rider is called Faithful and True... The armies of Heaven were following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean... Then I saw a beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the Rider on the horse and His army {See Rev 17:14 & Jude 14,15}. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs and his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The two of them were thrown ALIVE into the fiery lake of burning sulfur {See 2 Thess 2:8}. The rest of them were killed by the sword that came out of the mouth of the Rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


WILL THE CITY ON 7 HILLS OR ROME BE THE END-TIME BABYLON?? AND WHO
ARE THE 7 KINGS FROM THE CITY BUILT ON 7 HILLS??

Most Bible scholars believe that the book of First Peter was written shortly after the beginning of Nero’s Roman persecution of Christians in AD 64 because of I Peter 4:12,13 & 5:8,9. We know that Peter and his wife were living in Rome at this time. Peter was inspired to write in I Peter 5:13: “She {Peter’s wife} who is in *BABYLON* {Nickname for *ROME*!} sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.” Apparently some Christians including Peter were inspired to call ROME “BABYLON” after Nero’s terrible persecution of Christians starting in AD 64. This is very interesting since the evil city of the End-Times is called “BABYLON” 6 times in Revelation 14:8; 16:19; 17:5; 18:2,10,21.

Ancient Babylon Had destroyed God's Holy Temple and God's Holy City, Jerusalem; and killed, exiled and persecuted God's people for 70 years. Actually all encyclopedias agree that Babylon was completely evacuated in 275 BC and completely destroyed by 141 BC. The Wikipedia encyclopedia states, "By 141 BC, when the Parthian Empire took over the region, Babylon was in complete desolation and obscurity." The only question that remains is: Was Babylon rebuilt so that there could be people living in Babylon around AD 65 when Peter wrote 1 Peter 5:13??? Which leads us to the promises of God in Jeremiah 50:1-3,13: This is the word the Lord spoke through Jeremiah concerning Babylon.."Babylon will be captured... A nation from the north will attack her and lay waste her land. No one will live in it; both men and animals will flee away!" Jeremiah 52:52:61-64: When you get to Babylon, see that you read all these words aloud. Then say, "O Lord, you have said you will destroy this place, so that neither man nor animal will live in it; IT WILL BE DESOLATE FOREVER When you finish readiing this scroll, tie a stone to it and throw it into the Euphrates. Then say, "So will Babylon SINK TO RISE NO MORE because of the disaster I will bring upon her." And God ALWAYS keeps His promises. And God kept His promise for about 2284 years; since Babylon is still a pile of rubble to this very day, and will remain that way until the Last Day of the Planet Earth; for God always keeps His promises. The ruins of ancient Babylon are a tourist attraction in Iraq and the Iraqi government will not allow any of the ruins to be removed or built upon. If you check out the latest Iraqi Tour Guides you will notice the folowing statement: "Today, Babylon lies COMPLETELY in ruins. A large and splendidly carved stone lion is all that remains of its former glories."


“Babylon” {Nicknamed Rome by Peter} is a “GREAT SEAPORT” in Rev18:17-19; JUST LIKE ROME and UNLIKE Babylon whose ruins are NOW 4 miles from the very shallow Euphrates River; or Jerusalem which is 2000 to 3000 feet above sea level and 35 miles from the Mediterranean Sea. Babylon is also completely FLAT whereas the End-Time "Babylon" will be a city built on 7 Hills JUST LIKE ROME!! Rev 17:18: “The woman you saw {Rev 17:3--Who sits with the Beast with 7 heads} is the great *CITY* {Rome--nicknamed Babylon in I Peter 5:13--See Rev 17:5a} that will rule over the kings of the earth.” {During the Great Tribulation}

Rev 17:9-11: “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The 7 heads are 7 hills on which the woman {Or city of Rome} sits.” Rome is a city built on 7 HILLS!! They {The 7 Heads} are also 7 KINGS {From the city on 7 hills or Rome}. Five {Of these 7 KINGS} have fallen {Or died before AD 96}, one {the 6th KING} *IS* {Or reigning when Revelation was written in AD 96}, the other {or 7th KING} has not yet come, but when he {The 7th KING} does come, he must remain for for a little while. {Possibly the False Prophet of 666 {Or Black Horse Rider} who will be anointed by Satan just before the coming of the 8th KING {Or Pale Horse Rider} who ruled before as one of the 7 Kings} The beast {Nero Caesar who once was {Alive from
Dec 15, AD 37 to June 9, AD 68}, and NOW {In AD 96} is not {Alive} is an 8th KING. He belongs to the 7 {KINGS}, because He once was {Alive-AD 37-68} NOW {In AD 96} is not {Alive}, and yet will come {1260 days before the Last Day}."

WHO ARE OR WILL BE THE 8 KINGS OF REV 17:10,11??

ROME APPOINTED THE JEWISH KINGS AFTER THEY CONQUERED ISRAEL IN 63 BC AND THE 7 KINGS OF REV 13:1B all had "blasphemous names" so we can assume that they were evil kings who had killed or persecuted Jesus and His followers. And so the first 3 EVIL KINGS {Who are all called KINGS in God's Word{See Matt 2:1; Mark 6:25,26 & Acts 12:1} were all Israeli KINGS {who had killed or persecuted Jesus and His followers} appointed by the evil city on 7 hills or Rome.


AND SO THE 8 KINGS WERE OR WILL BE:


** {#1} ** Herod the Great who tried to kill the baby Jesus: Rev 12:3-5: "Another sign appeared in Heaven : An enormous red DRAGON {Or Satan-See Rev 12:9} with 7 heads {Or 7 KINGS-See Rev 17:10a}... and 7 crowns on his {7} heads {Satan crowns the 7 kings whereas 666 crowns the 10 horns}. The DRAGON {Or Satan} stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her Child the moment he was born {Thru his first evil king or Herod the Great as per Matt 2:13b,16!!} She gave birth to a Son {Jesus} a male Child, who will rule the nations with an iron scepter!!"

**{#2}** Herod who killed John the Baptist and ridiculed and tortured Jesus {See Matt 14:1-12; Luke 23:7-11}

**{#3}** Herod Antipas who killed the Apostle James and tried to kill Peter. {See Acts 12:1-5,19-23}

**{#4}** Nero Caesar who will come again as the 8th KING who will be the BEAST of the End-Times.

**{#5}** Titus Caesar who killed thousands of Christians when he destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70. Titus is also mentioned as a "Prince" in Daniel 9:26. Titus Caesar was the oldest son of Vespasian Caesar who was Caesar from Dec AD 69 to AD 79; and therefore heir and Crown *PRINCE* to the throne in Rome and was Caesar from AD 79 to AD 81.

**{#6**}** Domitian Caesar the 6th KING {"NOW IS"} was ruling in AD 96, and decreed in the last year of his reign {Sept AD 95 to Sept AD 96} that everyone must worship former Roman Caesars {Like Nero} or be killed and put in prison.{Like the Apostle John who was living in Ephesus at that time.}

**{#7}** Possibly the False Prophet of 666 who will be crowned the 7th evil King of Rome by Satan shortly before the coming of 666.

**{8th}** KING or Nero Caesar {The End-Time Beast or antichrist}; who ruled before as one of the **7 KINGS** The 4TH & 8TH KING will come up up from the Abyss or Hell exactly 1260 days before the last Day to rule from the evil city on 7 hills or Rome.

Rev 17:6: “The woman {ROME} will be drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bear testimony to Jesus.” While in Rev 13:7 we learn that the BEAST will be given “power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.” And in Rev 13:15b we read that 666 will “cause all who refuse to worship his statue to be killed.” We must therefore conclude that the evil city “on 7 hills” or Rome will be the HEADQUARTERS of 666 during the Great Tribulation.

The BEAST will very quickly conquer 1/4th of the world with many miracles {See Rev 6:8; 13:4} and will then appoint 10 Kings who have never before ruled over the 10 most powerful nations of the world {See Rev 17:12-14,17}. The following 10 powerful nations have about 50% of the world’s population and ABOUT 70% OF THE WORLD'S MILITARY POWER and certainly have the military, political and “religious” power to control and rule all the nations of the world: #1. United States #2. Russia #3. China {1.3 Billion} #4. Great Britain #5. France #6. India {1.1 Billion} #7. Germany #8. Japan #9. Brazil #10. Egypt. Brazil borders every nation in South America except for Chile. Egypt is the university, intellectual and theological center of Islam. And then 666 will have “authority over every tribe, people, language and nation” as per Rev 13:7b, from his headquarters in the evil city built on 7 hills or Rome.



Well said. I never thought I would accept this opinion, but it seems that I’m starting to see things from a different point of view. I have to analyse more on this as it looks very interesting. One thing I don’t understand though is how everything is related together.

Going to church does not make you a Christian just as standing in a garage does not make you a car.