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December 2, 2009

New York State Senate Defeats Same-Sex Marriage Bill

The New York State Senate voted 38-24 against a bill that would legalize same-sex marriage. The State Assembly had approved the legislation, and Gov. David A. Paterson had said he would sign the bill.

Had the legislation passed, New York would have become the sixth state to legalize same-sex marriage. Last month, Maine barred same-sex marriage through a referendum after the legislature had legalized it. New York does not have a referendum process like Maine. Here's more from Reuters:

New York's Democratic-controlled state assembly has easily passed the bill legalizing same-sex marriage three times, but the legislation was never voted upon in the senate until now.

The Democrats hold a senate majority of 32 to 30, but several Democratic senators opposed legalizing gay marriage.

...Gay marriage activists will likely now turn their attention to New Jersey, where the Democratic-controlled state legislature is considering taking up the issue before Democratic Gov. Jon Corzine leaves office in January.

Comments

"It's a shame that the NY Senate was cowled by outrageous, hysterical, greedy bigots from doing the right thing."

Is that supposed to be an argument for SSM. Or is it the case that pro SSMers can only throw invectives when they don't get their way?

Marriage is between one(1) man & 1 woman, until it is a US Constitusional Ammendmant this debate is grandstanding. If you really want same sex marriage (ssm) then the only way it can not be challenged leagally is for ssm to be made an amendment.

Marriage is not a right, it's a privilege. Driving is a privilege, not a right. Why do homosexuals say that homosexual marriage is a civil right? Marriage has been between one man and one woman since the beginning of civilization... why change it? Why give someone or a small group of people the "right" to change one of the oldest institutions in the world? It's sad that one group of people are forcing this on the entire nation. And they're being quite cruel about it too, which is making people like the idea even less.

Homosexuality is very unnatural to me. And because it's unnatural to me, homosexuals are allowed to call me a bigot and a homophobe? And that's acceptable? It is not right for people to force other people to accept something that they're not comfortable with.

If I'm a bigot, then science is bigoted too. When two men or two women can reproduce to create another human being, then we'll talk. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Greg, if you're not a Christian why are you on this site? Yelling and calling people names isn't helping.

??

Some people not only do go along with the Unnatural and the antinatural. But on top of that they want to change not only the perception of what is Nature but even the very definition of it.

Now hopefully, the definition of the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary ought to end the gibberish once and for all. Here is the Dictionary definition of Unnatural.

Main Entry:unnatural
Pronunciation:**n-*na-ch*-r*l, -*nach-r*l
Function:adjective
Date:15th century

1 : not being in accordance with nature or consistent with a normal course of events
2 a : not being in accordance with normal human feelings or behavior : PERVERSE b : lacking ease and naturalness : CONTRIVED *her manner was forced and unnatural* c : inconsistent with what is reasonable or expected *an unnatural alliance*
synonyms see IRREGULAR
–unnaturally \-*na-ch*-r*-l*, -*nach-r*-, -*na-ch*r-\ adverb
–unnaturalness \-*na-ch*-r*l-n*s, -*nach-r*l-\ noun

@ Carrie

Mildred Loving and her husband were married in 1959 and left Virginia because of their fear of the Racial Integrity Act, a state law banning marriages between any white person and any non-white person.

They were subsequently arrested and at their first trial the judge stated:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

Fortunately for our country, the Supreme Court in a 9-0 decision struck down this law declaring it unconstitutional. The court wrote:

"Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes ..., classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

So you see Carrie - marriage is not a priviledge. It is a fundamental civil right.

And furthermore if you are stating that it is a priviledge. Then you are holding to discriminatory practices. One set of our citizens are being treated remarkably different from others based on priviledge being granted by the state and the federal government. This is an absolute no no per our constitution.

Do you care to continue on this path you are on...

Sometimes I wonder if some of you ever actually read your bible?

Jesus had no problem with Homosexuality? Are you insane? The bible (both old and new testament) speaks much about it.

Look, if you want gay marriage to be legalized... fine. but pleas... please, quite trying to claim christianity and homosexuality are compatible. They have about as much in common as fire & water.

... and another thing. Just because I HATE the sin of homosexuality does not mean I HATE the sinner. I do not. I love them but I will not endorse, support, or otherwise cast my vote enabling the behavior. It is a sin, sin, sin, sin, sin...

@GP: "My Bible does not condemn "homosexuality" as a "sin" or an "abomination." How can the Bible condemn an obsolete, Victorian era scientific theory?" You must be reading a heavily edited and revised translation then.
Oh! The B-I-B-L-E,
Yes that's the book for me.
I stand alone on the word of God,
the B-I-B-L-E!

The B-I-B-L-E
I'll take it along with me,
I'll read and pray,
and then obey,
the B-I-B-L-E.

No matter how you much you try to see it otherwise, you are confronted by those "clobber verses":
Lev. 18:22; Lev. 20:13; Rom. 1:27; ICor. 6:9
They will never go away; and you liberal/postmod revisionists will never excise them from the bible. They will haunt you forever and will cut through your rhetorical fog.

"...Thou madest us for Thyself, and our heart is restless, until it repose in Thee." St. Augustine

This has nothing to do with the bible. It is a legal matter whether or not we will discriminate against members of our society.

This has nothing to do with the bible. It is a legal matter whether or not we will discriminate against members of our society.

Gregory, I empathize with you, I really do. I am in a situation where many - including my parents - believe the Bible teaches that you cannot remarry after a divorce. I have nothing but sympathy for people who want to marry and cannot. And I am sorry you have so much anger. But your repetitive and staggeringly vindictive statements do nothing to persuade people to your way of thinking and I'm pretty sure a lot of people have gotten to the point where, if they see your name, they just skip over it. Perhaps I've missed this and you've mentioned it before, but could you tell us what your situation is? Is there someone you want to marry? Would you marry if you could? Or do you just want that option available to you? Do you consider yourself married, if not legally? Do you live in a state where you could marry? I think if we can see you as a real person and not just an argument that would help.

To Salero21

No Salero21 - the law and the prophets provided stiff penalities for not only sexual transgressions, but a whole host of other transgressions as well. Something that you somehow seem to conveniently ignore.

How about going against the law and the prophets that state it is an abomination to eat anything of the sea that doesn't have scales and pigs? Christmast is right around the corner... Do you know the product called ham?1?!

And how about going against the law of nature that says that parents are to kill their children for disobedience?

Conveniently forgotten those two haven't you?

Marriage is a basic civil right granted to every citizen in these here united states by the constitution.

It is unconstitutional to prohibit two consenting adults to marry.

@Justin: "This has nothing to do with the bible. It is a legal matter whether or not we will discriminate against members of our society." GP brought said this - 4th paragraph of his most recent post. I simply was replying to his statement.
But regarding your statement: "It is unconstitutional to prohibit two consenting adults to marry." It's not unconstitutional for consenting adults. Now if you mean "same sex" adults, well that is another matter. Apparently same sex marriage is unconstitutional in most states otherwise the courts would have informed us all of its unconstitutionality.

The Creator of life is God. God created humans. He made two genders- man and woman. He said "it is good." He is the Creator of marriage. Of family. Of relationships. He made us like we are, with a need for others and a desire for family, love, etc.

But sin has marred things terribly, and often, because of sin and the hardening of our hearts as we accept the world's ways and our thinking becomes "polluted" with worldly ideas, we don't discern things rightly. This is how it is with homosexuality. Because of homosexual people, people who we don't want to condemn or mistreat, we justify homosexuality and/or same-sex marriage.

It's not much different than someone who's loved one commits a crime or adultery or something else that is both destructive and/or harmful. Because we love the person, we don't want to tell them what they should or shouldn't do, we don't want to offend, we don't want them to hurt. But the truth is that sin hurts, and that is why God says "do not" do certain things- like have unnatural relationships (unnatural meaning same-sex or bestiality or any other sexual relationship other than how God intended it and created it to be).

The fact is homosexuality hurts people. For one thing, the rate of AIDS is extremely high, esp. among gay males. Not only that, but other sexually transmitted diseases are also very high among homosexuals. Promiscuity is rampant. Most homosexuals are not monogomous. Yes, some are, but the majority are not. You can read many studies, interviews, etc. out there to find this out.

Also, homosexuality creates many other problems, including things like family estrangement/alienation, societal alienation, and alienation from God. Also, since it is unBiblical and not God's will for them, it causes hardening of the heart as they continue to reject God's Word, and when person gets further and further from the truth and from the love of God, the more "blind" they become, the more lost they become.

It is also detrimental because children thrive best with a mother and a father... not with two mothers or two fathers, despite what some will say. Research has proven this to be true. I know a girl who has FOUR "mothers" because her original lesbian mothers "divorced" and then remarried others. She faces a lot of difficulties, esp. in school. She can't celebrate Father's Day. She has to make four Mother's Day cards. She is "different" and this is very hard on kids.

Even my very liberal friend, who is extremely pro same-sex marriage has said that the girl is going to grow up very "messed up."

If we truly love others as Christ tells us to, we will speak the truth to them in love. We will be willing to face their wrath and any persecution as a result. We know that their lives are at stake, and with regards to homosexuality, their very physical lives are at stake (because of AIDS and other diseases that plague the homosexual community). But most of all, they need Christ, they need to know that they can be free, they need to be treated with love.

Legalizing same-sex marriage is not loving for anyone, including society as a whole. Every society that has legalized same-sex marriage or that has had rampant, acceptable hommosexuality has fallen into utter degredation and/or ruin. Soceity's thrive best when communities are made up of whole, healthy families, with mother and father. Unfortunately, divorce is just as detrimental to children. Divorce is also not God's perfect plan or will for us and is a result of sin.

But, it's interesting that even nonChristians recognize these things and time after time vote against same-sex marriage. In every state where the people have voted, it has been rejected.

I live in CA, and it's a lie that it won't be taught in schools, etc. In fact, we just, unfortunately, passed a bill in which we will now celebrate Harvey Milk Day in our public schools. There are also districts here (in the Bay Area) where children have taken "field trips" to their lesbian teacher's "wedding" and where homosexual curriculum is taught.

So, yes, it will be pushed onto children. The primary goal of any sinner is to justify sin. They want it to be acceptable in the eyes of others so they will not feel guilt, shame, etc. The primary goal of the homosexual movement is to make it acceptable. And the more people who are homosexuals, the better. Even someone like Perez Hilton has talked about how great it is when celebrities "come out" because others can see that it's wonderful, likeable people who are homosexuals, and they begin to accept it more.

We live in a dark world. We live in the End Times. That is all very obvious. And we live with people who delight in their sin, who justify it, and who want others to accept it. We love these people, but we are light in a dark world, and it is not easy to speak the Truth, esp. with love. It reminds me of the verse about "snatch others from the fire" in the New Testament.

We have to be strong and courageous and speak the truth in love. God's Word and the truths therein are all from love. Because He loves us, He wants us to be whole, healthy, and at peace. When we live in sin and are separated from him, all of that is impossible.

God Bless!

Justin said: "This has nothing to do with the bible. It is a legal matter whether or not we will discriminate against members of our society."

My reply:
Actually, everything in this life "has to do with " the Bible. God has given guidelines, commands,and words of wisdom on everything in this life. God is our Creator and the Maker of all things. He is the very One who created this world, who created us, who created life. Every concern we have, every issue, every event... all things are addressed in God's Word.

For instance, environmentalism. There are verses about how we are to care for the earth. There are also verses about how we are to first and foremost love God, then others. Scripture is clear on how we are to care for the earth, yet also use its resources (like animals for food) and not worship it.

Many verses don't outright come out and use a specific term or word that we might use in our lives, BUT there is plenty of wisdom that God gives in the Bible on all things- relationships and how to treat others, how to live holy lives, loving God, family, etc.

We simply cannot separate ourselves from God. We are not gods. We are not in control of this world in the way we think. We can do what we please, yes, but not w/o certain consequences. Same-sex marriage is one of the things that sure, we could legalize it, but there will be negative, harmful consequences to our society.

My question is when is this country going to start using the Holy Bible again when decisions are made? If everything is going to be decided based on what man thinks and not what Christ thinks we are going to be in a boat load of trouble.

Gay parades today, Murderer parades tomorrow, Fornicator parades the next day, Idolatry parades forever!

Thank God Christ is still in control!

To Salero21

It becomes incredibly difficult to attempt to hold all of the rules of the bible sacrosanct, doesn’t it? I am constantly amused at how you Christians cut and dance around the ones you don’t like.

Calling me names and acting like a child does not nor will it change the facts.

Leviticus 20 - feel free to read and study these things that God told the Israelites not to do so that He could give them the land promised to them. These are all part of the laws of the prophets.

Your education seems to be sorely lacking.

To Salero21

It becomes incredibly difficult to attempt to hold all of the rules of the bible sacrosanct, doesn’t it? I am constantly amused at how you Christians cut and dance around the ones you don’t like.

Calling me names and acting like a child does not nor will it change the facts.

Leviticus 20 - feel free to read and study these things that God told the Israelites not to do so that He could give them the land promised to them. These are all part of the laws of the prophets.

Your education seems to be sorely lacking.

@ Sarah and Dan

One question - when you file your taxes to what institution do you file them?

If and when you file them to a church - then no the bible has nothing to do with it.

If being sinless was a prerequistite for getting married. Then none of us would be married.

And how arrogant of you both to determine who is or isn't allowed to sin. God doesn't do this, are you greater than Him?

Neither you nor I have the right to determine what two consenting adults should do

@Sarah

Are you kidding me with this? Have you taken a look at the current divorce rates? Have you taken a look at our news over the last couple of days? You must not live in the USA. You could not possibly live in the USA!

I live in the USA and our divorce rates are approaching the 60% mark.

In a week when our president made a decision to send thousands more of our young men to get killed in a stupid war - this was all pushed aside for the news of a golfer and his many mistresses. And this was a straight golfer!

You talked about strong families…If you are supposedly so concerned about it, spend your efforts on strengthening straight marriages. And spend your efforts telling young girls to keep their legs closed. You obviously are not aware that teenage pregnancy is once again skyrocketing.

And there is just as much promiscuity in the straight population as there is in the gay population. If ever you visit NYC let me know I will take you around and drop you in front of a couple of clubs that you as a straight person can partake of pleasures of the flesh.

But all this is besides the point. The issue is whether or not the Constitution of the USA guarantees two consenting adults the basic right to form a union that is legal by the state. That’s what’s the issue.

And this has nothing to do with the bible.


@ Ed

Ed, how old are you? Have you ever heard of something called "the separation of church and state?"

BTW when did the country ever used the Holy Bible to make decisions?

When should we use it? Are you sure you want to go down that road?

Google something call the Inquisition and the Dark Ages
That's a period in European history when the Holy Bible was used by men to make decisions.
====================================================
My question is when is this country going to start using the Holy Bible again when decisions are made? If everything is going to be decided based on what man thinks and not what Christ thinks we are going to be in a boat load of trouble.

Gay parades today, Murderer parades tomorrow, Fornicator parades the next day, Idolatry parades forever!

Thank God Christ is still in control!

@ Sarah

If straight people who are fornicating and committing adultery left right and center with no apparent detriment to our society, I don't see how a few gay people getting married will make any difference to it.

Unless of course you are one of those people who think that God thinks gay relationships are so much more wrong and he's going to be overwhelmed and give a pass to the sins of straight people.

Well Sarah according to Paul - adultery, fornication, homosexuality and all other kinds of sexual immorality are going to end up in the very same place.

And given the fact that only 2% of the population is considered gay - well I think there's going be tons of straight people who will split hell wide open.
But of course you may feel that God will turn a blind eye to the sins of adultery and fornication...

But at the end of the day, these side issues have nothing to do with it.

The issue at hand is whether our constitution guarantees consenting adults their basic civic rights or not

Justin, comparing homosexual marriage to interracial marriage doesn't hold water. Since we're on a Christian site, there are numerous times in the Bible where God condoned interracial marriage, there was Rahab and Ruth for example. However, He NEVER told a man to lye with another man or to marry another man. In fact he condemns it. I will always continue to be on God's Path, so my answer is "yes".

I feel sorry for you Greg, I really do. Why are you wasting your time on a Christian site? Just to spew hatred and lash-out on a group of people who don't think the same way you do? How hypocritical!!! I could only imagine what would happen if a person went on a homosexual website and be as vindictive and cruel as you are being. Maybe how people for homosexual marriage reacted in California when Prop 8 was banned? They threatened people who donated money to Prop 8, harassed petition-signers, vandalize buildings, etc.
And due to the many bans on same-sex marriage, obviously the majority of Americans do not want to change the definition of marriage, which is between a man and a woman.

Charles Winecoff is a homosexual writer. He is a rational person and I wish more people would think the way he does. http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/cwinecoff/2009/03/19/love-war-and-gay-marriage/
He writes,"I must be immune to gay marriage fever. Because I can’t help sympathizing with the citizens whose majority vote to defend their long-valued concept of marriage has been stigmatized as bigotry. The pro-8 voters I’ve talked to are resigned to the likelihood that the screaming minority will ultimately get its way, that gay marriage will come to California. So the psychological game, at least, is over."

"Civil unions already offer gay couples the same basic legal status as married couples in several states, including California (and they’re a lot easier to get). But as a result of the gay community’s mass hissy fit to usurp marriage, the religious right has been re-ignited in its holy war against legal recognition of any gay relationships at all."

"Gays don’t want marriage because they desperately long to be part of a stuffy, archaic ritual laden with church baggage. They want to get married because, now that they have clout and 99% of the same rights as straight people, they’ve run out of goals - and they feel entitled to the only thing that’s still beyond reach: absolute acceptance."

I fully believe what he wrote in this article. This whole fight for same-sex marriage is like a child whining for the last piece of candy.

Like Dan said, Lev. 18:22; Lev. 20:13; Rom. 1:27; ICor. 6:9 will never go away. You do have the right to keep coming onto this sight and spew your hatred (obviously you have too much time on your hands). God's Word will always stand and you will be fighting these verses and this Truth till your last days.

@GP: "... my own life has proven that people who talked like you write now about Gay people and their children, couldn't have been more wrong about me and mine."
Rather than use Sarah as a foil, measure yourself by God's word. That's what you'll be judged by (and all of us, as well). Practicing homosexual behavior (as well as "practicing" any sin) will according to God's word separate us from Him. But He is merciful and will pursue us (He is the Hound of Heaven after all!) and will, if we repent, forgive us. IJohn 1:9, II Cor. 5:17

GP, personal experience allows me to empathize with you, not agree with you. That's all.

@GP: "You do have the right to keep coming onto this sight and spew your hatred (obviously you have too much time on your hands)." Hey, Bud, you're the one that writes vast numbers of lengthy posts - mostly rhetorical fog. And your tone of voice is far more hateful toward us that disagree with you, too. But I forgive you. Now I have a theory. I think you take out your hatred of the Bible on those who keep pointing out to you what it says about homosexual behavior. (I won't post them b/c you probably have them memorized by now.) I infer that by the vast quantity of socio/psycho babble you post. (I use to cut my foot on that stuff crossing the cow lot.) But I do agree with your statement regarding gays demanding ssm: "This whole fight for same-sex marriage is like a child whining for the last piece of candy." That seems to be characteristic of gay activists in general.

@GP: I must retract my last post. I thought you posted it but I was wrong. It was Carrie, and it wasn't directed may way. I misread the whole thing.
Carrie: nice post.
(Gosh, I'm such a derelict, sometimes.)

@ Dan

The 15th Amendment to the Constitution granted African American men the right to vote by declaring that the "right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.” It took a century for this to be fully realized, but it has been realized.

In 1967 Loving v Virginia – the courts removed all race-based legal restrictions on marriages. Thus ending the prohibition on interracial marriages that were supposedly God ordained.

In 1971 The 26th Amendment set the voting age at 18. Prior to this young men were considered adult enough to go die for the country in a war, but not adult enough to vote.

In 1920, the 19th amendment gave women the right to vote.

In 1954 Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, The court eliminated segregation in schools.


Justice, logic and common sense eventually comes to the fore and take us to a more just society for all. This will be no different.

It is left to be seen what the court will decide.

Well, it's interesting that with all the real problems caused by man in this world, homosexuals are now stuck on getting the government to give them marriage. They couldn't get the churches they infiltrated for that purpose to give them marriage and thus respectibility by getting their enemy to accept not just them but what they do. They keep throwing into our faces that Christians are supposed to love them and accept them as is. They got it wrong, Christianity is about accepting Jesus, stopping what as humans they are doing, and move on as Christians. Homosexuals don't get that and have brought their attitude into the churches and government. Well, Christians have woke up, Christians are to follow Jesus not man, homosexuals are not Christians so Christians have Jesus's approval to walk past them and leave them behind to their own devices. If you can't convert, go to those you can convert. Jesus said this, this is in the Bible. Out of love for fellow man, we won't kill you but we will leave you alone to do what you want.

@Justin: "It is left to be seen what the court will decide." Hard to argue with that.

@ Carrie And Original Anna

I will say this once more and I know this will go over your heads because it apparently has done so many other times. And for the likes of me I do not understand why. Well I do, but it is not charitable for me to say...

In the U.S.A. when a woman and man form a marriage contract - all states ie the country confer certain legal benefits to such a union. AT LAST COUNT THERE WERE OVER 1,100 OF THESE BENEFITS

A sample of benefits as follows

Couples can file joint tax filings and receive tax breaks
Automatic assumption of spouse’s pension
Bereavement Leave
The ability to bring your foreign spouse to the USA
Insurance Breaks
Medical decisions on behalf of your partner
Social Security Survivor Benefits
Tax Breaks
Visitation of partner in hospital or prison

Now tell me which one of these benefits have anything to do with the bible!

And while you are at it - who gave you the right to determine that two people who have committed their lives to each other and have spent over 20 years together cannot and should not have the ability to make life changing decisions for each other.

Absolutely last post on this topic.

It is regrettable that with so much going on in the country that so much time is wasted on this.

You quote scriptures Carrie, but you don’t live by them. If you did you would also live by the one “God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love power and a sound mind.”

Two men deciding to get marry to each other should not affect you or any Christian this much. You remind me of that judge who was convinced that interracial marriages were of the devil; and he was absolutely convinced it was God’s divine law that this was the case.

As a Christian there is no need to fear. The country didn’t fall apart when black people and white people were allowed to marry. It won’t fall apart now either.
You don’t believe me take a look at Canada, Scandinavia and other European countries.

And just because one man who is gay says he doesn’t want to be married, doesn’t mean that he speaks for all those gay people who want to get married – this should be obvious to you.

Put it this way – lots of women especially actors are deciding to have children and not get married. Do we say marriage should be done away with because a few decide it is not for them?

And lastly, you nor I speak for God. He is quite able to speak for Himself.

@Justin: "...you nor I speak for God. He is quite able to speak for Himself." Bingo! And He has:
1. Lev. 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
2. Lev. 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act..."
3. Rom. 1:26,27 ...for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another,men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
4. I Cor. 6:9,10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,..
5. I Tim.1:9,10 ...realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching...
But regarding the Christian:
*I Cor. 6:10-12 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
*Rom. 12:1,2 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
*I John 2:15-17 Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
And many, many more.

The Bible clobber verses abused by homophobes, haters and/or the ignorant, and that is exactly what they are by this time, are ripped out of their contexts and shamefully misapplied. They not only are being used in quite racist-like ways, I'm old enough to remember that time, but they obscure the lessons one should take from the contexts in which they were ripped from.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009

Gregory...

Once again, I disagree...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

It's unconscionable to label someone as "unnatural." Disgusting, immoral...It's dehumanizing. It's also silly. If something is "unnatural," it's simply impossible. Sticking your elbow in your ear...now that's unnatural. Chopping your arm off so that you that can stick your elbow in your ear is "natural," but insane.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 3, 2009

Gregory...

There is no such thing as an unnatural human being, however, there are many unnatural behaviors that human beings engage in...

God condemns the unnatural practice of homosexuality. The Bible is irrevocably clear on the matter...

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Rom 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

.

And furthermore if you are stating that it is a priviledge. Then you are holding to discriminatory practices. One set of our citizens are being treated remarkably different from others based on priviledge being granted by the state and the federal government. This is an absolute no no per our constitution.

Posted by: Justin at December 3, 2009

Justin...

Homosexuals have exactly the same constitutional rights as any other American citizen... Homosexuals are not a constitutional minority... In order for homosexuals to be considered a minority the Constitution would need to be ammended...

Homosexuals do not merit special privilidge due to nothing more than their free-will choice of sexual expression...

If homosexuals are allowed to gain prefered status for nothing more than by virtue of their free-will sexual preference, then all other forms of sexual perversion would be entitled to follow suit...

.

My Bible does not condemn "homosexuality" as a "sin" or an "abomination." How can the Bible condemn an obsolete, Victorian era scientific theory? Or a short lived social construct?

The Bible, instead, condemns idolatry and idolatrous practices. The context of the usual "homosexual" clobber verses make that clear, at least to anyone of good will...though access to reliable, high integrity sources (many of which, for my daily bread, I help safeguard, preserve, develop and distribute to scholars around the world), and adequate reading skills might help as well.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 3, 2009

Gregory...

You appear to have difficulty with reading comprehension...

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice the distinction between idolatry and the pratice of homosexuality in verse 9.

Notice also in verse 11 it plainly states "1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Were is a past tense usage...

The practice of unrepentant homosexuality has absolutely nothing in common with a victorious Christian experience...

.

This has nothing to do with the bible. It is a legal matter whether or not we will discriminate against members of our society.

Posted by: Justin at December 4, 2009

While I agree that the laws of the land are not lifted directly from the pages of the Bible... The people (the true governing body) have every right to set laws according to the will of the majority of the citizenry...

Homosexuality is a free-will behavior and it is perfectly legal to discriminate against free-will behaviors in this country...

.

How about going against the law and the prophets that state it is an abomination to eat anything of the sea that doesn't have scales and pigs? Christmast is right around the corner... Do you know the product called ham?1?!

And how about going against the law of nature that says that parents are to kill their children for disobedience?

Conveniently forgotten those two haven't you?

Posted by: Markus at December 4, 2009

Markus...

Allow me to be the first to introduce you to Jesus, the only begotten son of the Father. The lamb that takes away the sin of the world...

The one who satisfied by his death on the cross, the need for blood attonement...

So we are no longer called upon to stone our wayward children...

Also... The shellfish thing.....

Mar 7:17 Then Jesus went into a house to get away from the crowds, and his disciples asked him what he meant by the statement he had made.

Mark 7:18 "Don't you understand either?" he asked. "Can't you see that what you eat won't defile you?

Mark 7:19 Food doesn't come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then comes out again." (By saying this, he showed that every kind of food is acceptable.)

Mark 7:20 And then he added, "It is the thought-life that defiles you.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder,

Mark 7:22 adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.

Mark 7:23 All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God."

.

Marriage is a basic civil right granted to every citizen in these here united states by the constitution.

It is unconstitutional to prohibit two consenting adults to marry.

Posted by: Justin at December 4, 2009

I must have missed this constitutional marriage ammendment...

Would you be so kind as to reference it for me?

Thank you in advance...

.

The Golden Rule is not about blinding or distracting us to inequality and injustice, here and now. Literal interpretation of the Bible, however, has always used to obscure injustice, distract us from seeing and outright justifying inequalities and injustices, as it is doing now to you and me about our GLBT neighbors, relatives, perhaps even our children.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 3, 2009

Gregory...

I will give you the fact that the bible has been distorted by power hungry tyrants bent on subjugating others to their will in order to accomplish nefarious purposes...

However.... Your infusion of "Literal interpretation of the Bible, however, has always used to obscure injustice, distract us from seeing and outright justifying inequalities and injustices," is willfully ignorant at best and disingenuous to the point of prevarication at worst...

.

Of course, personal experience isn't necessarily applicable to forming generalities, but, my own life has proven that people who talked like you write now about Gay people and their children, couldn't have been more wrong about me and mine.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 4, 2009

Gregory...

Homosexuals are not a race of people.... The practice of homosexuality is a free-will behavior...

A strong case can be made that the male homosexual lifestyle itself, in its most extreme form, is mentally disturbed. Remember that Rotello, a gay advocate, notes that "the outlaw aspect of gay sexual culture, its transgressiveness, is seen by many men as one of its greatest attributes." Same-sex eroticism becomes for many, therefore, the central value of existence, and nothing else--not even life and health itself--is allowed to interfere with pursuit of this lifestyle. Homosexual promiscuity fuels the AIDS crisis in the West, but even that tragedy it is not allowed to interfere with sexual freedom.
And, according to Rotello, the idea of taking responsibility to avoid infecting others with the HIV virus is completely foreign to many groups trying to counter AIDS. The idea of protecting oneself is promoted, but protecting others is not mentioned in most official condom promotions (France in the '80s was an interesting exception). Bluntly, then, core gay behavior is both potentially fatal to others, and often suicidal.
Surely it should be considered "mentally disturbed" to risk losing one's life for sexual liberation. This is surely among the most extreme risks practiced by any significant fraction of society. I have not found a higher risk of death accepted by any similar-sized population.
In conclusion, then, if we ask the question "Is mental illness inherent in the homosexual condition?" the answer would have to be "Further research--uncompromised by politics --should be carried out to honestly evaluate this issue."

http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

.

I'm not in the marriage market, so to speak. But, why should personal experience be the main reason to support civil rights and justice when it comes to other people wanting to marry?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 4, 2009

Gregory...

It is most definitely not a civil rights issue regarding the free-will practice of homosexuality...

It is a social manipulation disguised as a civil rights issue...

Homosexual marriage is at best a counterfeit civil rights issue...

.

Neither you nor I have the right to determine what two consenting adults should do

Posted by: Justin at December 4, 2009

You logic has a hole in it...

We may not be able to stop two consenting adults from engaging in a behavior... Yet we have every right to deny them the blessings of society and the law...

Let's just for instance say that a business owner decides to have someone rob him in order to score a big insurance settlement...

Let's say that a husband/wife contracts an individual to murder their spouse...

.

But all this is besides the point. The issue is whether or not the Constitution of the USA guarantees two consenting adults the basic right to form a union that is legal by the state. That’s what’s the issue.

And this has nothing to do with the bible.

Posted by: Justin at December 4, 2009

Justin...

The Constitution holds no such guarantee...

And that has nothing to do with the Bible...

.

Ed, how old are you? Have you ever heard of something called "the separation of church and state?"

Posted by: Justin at December 4, 2009

Justin...

while the USA is a Constitutional Republic and not a Theocracy, it is impossible to separate church and state...

Every adult has both a god and a religion and every law is enacted to honor both a god and a form of religion...

god

3 : a person or thing of supreme value

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/GOD

religion

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

.

The issue at hand is whether our constitution guarantees consenting adults their basic civic rights or not

Posted by: Justin at December 4, 2009

Justin...

The Constitution guarantees the civil rights of every citizen...

The Constitution does not guarantee licence to engage in all manner of consentual free-will choice activities...

.

And while you are at it - who gave you the right to determine that two people who have committed their lives to each other and have spent over 20 years together cannot and should not have the ability to make life changing decisions for each other.

Posted by: Justin at December 5, 2009

Justin...

There already is the power of attorney and sevral more civil options availiable, that do not require redefining marriage in order to accomplish...

But then, you already know that...

.

Two men deciding to get marry to each other should not affect you or any Christian this much. You remind me of that judge who was convinced that interracial marriages were of the devil; and he was absolutely convinced it was God’s divine law that this was the case.

As a Christian there is no need to fear. The country didn’t fall apart when black people and white people were allowed to marry. It won’t fall apart now either.
You don’t believe me take a look at Canada, Scandinavia and other European countries.

Posted by: Justin at December 5, 2009

Justin....

Interracial marriage is amoral, the practice of homosexuality is immoral...

Apples and oranges...

.

You guys are funny in a sad way and tiresome.

Don't you get tired rehashing the same old nonsense?

How many more times?

Why don't we just leave it to the Supreme Court to determine the constitutionality of the whole issue.

While you believe that everybody has a God, that's not what everybody accepts.W hen you read CT, you can sympathize with the non-believers. Who, after all, would want to be like...CT wants them to be? Some people have personal integrity.

"Free will" activities are very definitely a civil rights issue. And, you have a strikingly racist concept of "free will" and civil rights. Really, how do you sleep at night, anyway?

In any case, "Gay" is likely "innate characteristics" and "free will" and a social construct, as is not-Gay, as is being female, and/or male. (We all have an X chromosome, remember? The Y makes me male, the X makes me human. Of course, that's too simplistic, but a fun thing to think about.)

Race, on the other hand, wasn't really about innate characteristics. That was an excuse, to group and label people by "race." Race was mostly about caste, not "innate characteristics," but not exclusively.

Racists couldn't even agree on how many "races" there were, or what the innate characteristics that made up a "race" actually were. Now we know.

There aren't any races. None. We just say there are five "races," but "race" is purely a social construct; somewhat like the idols in the Bible. The only innate characteristics involved with "race" are what we all share...the human propensity to divide stuff into groups, label things, and tell stories about "us" ...and "them."

The Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights and many later amendments, are about civil rights and "free will" activities, such as religion, voting, private property and speech, for just a few 'starters.'

I'm the "hater?" Well maybe, but I don't hate Christians, unlike what conspiracy theorists would like to believe. Christianity is my cultural heritage, my inheritance from my parents and grandparents, my moral center. I take communion with a good conscience...I belong at the alter.

But, I'm not a white, conservative Evangelical Christian. Is CT just for white, conservative, Evangelical Christians? Well, actually, that is exactly why it was what was founded , a social construct of religious privilege and societal/political hegemony.

CT was not founded for Christians," but for white, ultra-conservative Evangelicalism, as reflected by its co-founders, one of which was the notorious hater, J. Howard Pew. Just go look at the early issues, or the recent ones for that matter, to see what I'm talking about.

I'm not the one that talks exactly like the racists of my youth. They were all "real" Christians, too, and everyone who disagreed with them hated Christians. Same thing with my Great Grandfather, the Union veteran, and secession and slavery. The slave owning, secessionist traitor ancestors of the other co-founder were the real Christians, those who thought that owning a fellow human being was wrong, where the devil's servants. And, all Hell then broke loose.

About that "hating the sin" thing. That is hate. I try not to hate sin, I just try, sometimes unsuccessfully, to not do it. Be careful about becoming what you hate...a hater. Did Jesus really tell you or me to hate anything? Perhaps St. Augustine did, but did Jesus? Or, even Paul?

Don't do sin, whatever you think sin is, but I would advise to not hate sin. Like earthquakes and tornadoes, that is a wasted effort. Respect the power of sin. Learn from it. Then, you'll actually know what sin is. Which may make it easier to not do it...or not. What do I know about you? But, what sin is, is knowledge that often seems sadly lacking at CT.

Sin...really, sin is what I do, but I can't say that you do it. I'm not God. You have your reasons, even if they may be foolish, if deeply immoral to me...like the rape of Lot by his daughters.

I mean, even Huckleberry Finn knew what sin was; and he thought that knowledge would send him to hell. Doing the right thing by his neighbor, Jim, was against the law and very dangerous. Maybe going to jail, maybe even being murdered...and going to Hell for doing it, that was a price he was prepared to pay.

That's the price Jesus also willingly paid, didn't he? He did "sins" that were illegal...and against God's law, according to to the religious leaders. For instance, he chased the moneychangers our of the temple (who no doubt were back before the hour was up). The moneychangers were an inextricable part of the sacrifices required and regulated by Leviticus.

But, the price of doing right by their neighbors like Jim, was not a price that the "real" Christians around Huckleberry Finn were going to pay. Instead, for being upright, God fearing, baptized and saved, white Evangelical Christians, they confidently expected to see in their next life, that very exclusive, Pearly Gated community of many antebellum mansions.

No wonder Finn didn't have to think long about that, before trying to do the right thing for his neighbor, Jim.

I don't hate white, conservative Evangelical Christians, I just try not to do that stuff. I'd like to know, however, why many people do that stuff.

Why don't we just leave it to the Supreme Court to determine the constitutionality of the whole issue.

Posted by: Anthony at December 6, 2009

Anthony...

Because the Supreme Court does not have the right to make such a decision...

We the people do...

.

"Free will" activities are very definitely a civil rights issue. And, you have a strikingly racist concept of "free will" and civil rights. Really, how do you sleep at night, anyway?

Posted by: Gregiry Peterson at December 6, 2009

Gregory...

Free-will activities are more of a legal issue than a civil rights issue...

You do not have the civil right to drive drunk... At high speed... In a school zone...

Get the picture?

Or do the bread crumbs need to be put a little closer together?

As a matter of fact, I sleep on my left side usually, sometimes on my back and sometimes on my right side too...

Oh, and Gregory....

Not to burst your bubble or nothin' but ol' Huck... He was just a 'maginary person.... Him an' ol' Jim.... They wasn't even for real.... But like ol' Doc Holliday says in Tombstone...

"I'm your Huckleberry"

.

@DH: "Not to burst your bubble or nothin' but ol' Huck... He was just a 'maginary person.... Him an' ol' Jim.... They wasn't even for real.... But like ol' Doc Holliday says in Tombstone...

"I'm your Huckleberry"

;-P Chuckle, chuckle. Such a wag!

The Bible -- or any other allegedly holy book -- is completely irrelevant to American law. Religious folks are free to have whatever ceremonies or rituals or spectacles they choose, but their religious beliefs are not adequate grounds for denying other Americans equal civil rights.

In 20 years, every gay and lesbian American in the country will have the same right to marry that heterosexuals do. The fact that these citizens have to wait even a minute longer for equal justice is another shame that will go down in American history alongside slavery and the subjugation of women.

I have been married going on seventeen years now. My husband and I were talking this afternoon after church... There was a bit of scandal at church today...

Exactly how does allowing two men or two women to marry each other affect my marriage or your marriage?

@Dionne: "Exactly how does allowing two men or two women to marry each other affect my marriage or your marriage?" Using your argument, lets allow polygamy. Exactly how does allowing a man and 2, 3, 4 or more women marry affect your marriage? Do you really want to legitimate a perversion? For there will be no end to those who will want their particular pervsion legalized.

The Bible -- or any other allegedly holy book -- is completely irrelevant to American law. Religious folks are free to have whatever ceremonies or rituals or spectacles they choose, but their religious beliefs are not adequate grounds for denying other Americans equal civil rights.

Posted by: Kathleen at December 6, 2009

Kathleen...

Just in case you missed it...

Every adult has both a god and a religion and every law is enacted to honor both a god and a form of religion...

god

3 : a person or thing of supreme value

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/GOD

religion

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

While the USA is a Constitutional Republic and not a Theocracy, it is impossible to separate church and state... And it is impossible to exclude holy books of religion from having an impact on laws...

Any person, place or thing is capable of being a god to someone... Any printed text is also capable of being a holy book to an individual's particular religion...

As for your attempts to liken homosexuality to being on par with race or sex....

Bogus argument...

One cannot choose their etnicity and one cannot choose their sex...

At least those of limited means who are unable to pay the copious sums necessary to have their bodies altered in order to pass themselves off as something that they were not at birth...

.

Dionne posted, "Exactly how does allowing two men or two women to marry each other affect my marriage or your marriage?"

That is a fair question and I would like to answer it with a quote from Frank Turek:

"If we allow any other sexual relationship to have the same status as natural marriage—be it man-man, woman-woman, man-daughter (incest), man-woman-man, or whatever-whatever—we will degrade marriage itself (just like we degrade the MVP award by giving it to everyone). When we degrade marriage, we will get less of it. When we get less of it, we will further weaken our civilization. Children will be hurt the most."

Dan

Thanks for your contribution. You have not however answered the question and frankly I am not interested in an emotional argument that is not based on reason.

Being Gay isn't a perversion. 60 plus years of sociological and psychological show conclusively that being Gay just happens, and generally isn't acquired, despite what some religious-right organizations' pop Freudian psychologizing. How one acts and explains to one's self, one's same sex orientation is heavily dependent upon human social constructs, as it is with other-sex orientations.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009

Gregory...

I disagree...

During the last 40 years the majority of SSA studies have been conducted, reviewed and/or published by homosexuality affirming researchers, many of whom are also openly homosexual. (1) Virtually all of the studies were touted by the media as proving that SSA is inborn. In reality, however, every one of them, from gene analysis, to brain structure, fingerprint styles, handedness, finger lengths, eye blinking, ear characteristics, verbal skills and prenatal hormones, have failed to be replicated, were criticized for research limitations, and/or were outright debunked.(3-7) This includes the widely publicized brain research of Dr. Simon LeVay,(8) and the gay gene research of Dr. Dean Hamer(9-12)

In summary, SSA is determined by a complex interaction between familial and peer influences, unique events, social and biological factors. An attachment deficit, cross-gender behavior, rejection by same-sex peers, sexual abuse, involvement in pornography and sexual experimentation are associated with SSA for many, but do not unilaterally or universally cause it. In other words, not every person who has these experiences will develop SSA, and not every person with SSA will have a history of these experiences. This is likely where biological influences and unrecognized environmental or societal factors play a role. (1, 2, 13-16) What the current political climate ignores is that the last forty years of data proves only a small biological contribution and a significant degree of sexual fluidity.

http://www.acpeds.org/index.cgi?BISKIT=6792&CONTEXT=art&cat=10005&art=167%3Cbr%3E

.

>

What, you mean like what Abraham, Jacob, King David, Soloman, and a great many of the patriarchs of the OT practiced? Heavens no! Such perversion!

Moving on...

It does not matter if YOU, PERSONALLY are against men marrying men or women, women. We don't care. You can also be against eating shellfish, interracial marriage, devastating other nations in the name of spreading "democracy", or wearing glasses. What matters is if the rest of us are to be ruled over by your preferences. The "giving" of civil rights should NEVER be the domain of the general public - they were against abolishing slavery, womens suffrage, etc. This is why we have courts, to impose a right judgment on our nation and guarantee equality for all citizens, under the law. Not one set of laws for the majority and another for those the majority dislikes - for ANY reason.

Jan B

Thanks for trying to point me in the right direction.

How exactly will doing so degrade marriage itself?

And how will this affect children?

I do not see my marriage being degraded because of this. I see that what my husband and I do in our marriage is what degrades it.

We don't care.

Posted by: Joe Chip at December 7, 2009

Joe....

We, on the other hand.... Do care...

And we refuse to be your doormat...


.

How exactly will doing so degrade marriage itself?

And how will this affect children?

I do not see my marriage being degraded because of this. I see that what my husband and I do in our marriage is what degrades it.

Posted by: Dionne at December 7, 2009

Dionne...

It would appear that you have a bent for obfuscation... or riddles...

First you ask how homosexual "marriage" would degrade the institution of marriage...

And then you attempt to offset your first question by positing that your "marriage" would not be effected by allowing homosexuals to marry...

That leaves little to the imagination as to the reasons why your "marriage" would not be effected..

.

@Dionne: "...You have not however answered the question..." (Btw, I did answer your question. You need only use inferential reasoning to apprehend it. But you most certainly did not answerer mine.)
"I am not interested in an emotional argument that is not based on reason." (And yet your question by its very nature is an emotional reaction - to common sense, the constitution, the Bible.) And since you claim you go to church, do you accept in precept and principle the Scriptures as authoritative for your life?

"...there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: 'Mine!'"
-Abraham Kuyper

@GP: "I, and likely my neighbor as well, want to be loved by a person which I desire and need, somehow, to love...for more than just love, but to be as one with. Man was not meant to be alone." You can certainly experience this without redefining marriage and changing the constitution. Just ask the thousands of heterosexuals who live together without the blessing of church or state.

Your source, as you know David, is a deliberately anti-Gay organization set up to apparently be confused with the much larger, much older and much more prestigious and respected American Academy of Pediatricians.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009

Gregory...

You never accept anything that you do not agree with as having any veracity...

Here ya go again...

Once upon a time, the sexualities—heterosexual, homosexual, even bisexual—were categorical and mutually exclusive. Further, sexual attraction/desire, sexual behavior and sexual identity were assumed to be congruent: same-gender sexual attraction/behavior presupposed a gay or lesbian or bisexual identity, and other-gender sexual attraction/behavior assumed heterosexuality. But results of sexuality research over the last 20 years have turned our paradigm of sexuality on its head. What we’ve learned is that while these assumptions may be true for some, they are not true for all.

The truth is, Kinsey was right: sexuality not only exists on a continuum, some people may (and do) move on that continuum across the lifespan. The truth is, sexuality can be fluid, varying across time and situation.

http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-fluidity/

.

Sexual drives with a social species, especially ours, are about much more than just procreation. Cockroaches can sexually procreate. We're humans. We have multiple identities and multiple communities, which evolve from a complex social, biological, environmental and historical interactions.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009

Gregory...

Homosexuals are not all about love...

An exhaustive study in The New England Journal of Medicine, medical literature's only study reporting on homosexuals who kept sexual "diaries," indicated the average homosexual ingests the fecal material of 23 different men each year. The same study indicated the number of annual sexual partners averaged nearly 100. Homosexuals averaged, per year, fellating 106 different men and swallowing 50 of their seminal ejaculations, and 72 penile penetrations of the anus. (Corey, L, and Holmes, K.K., "Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men," New England Journal of Medicine, 1980, vol 302: 435-438; as quoted in "Homosexuality and Civil Rights," Tony Marco, 1992).

A study by McKusick, et al., of 655 San Francisco homosexuals reported that only 24 percent of the sample claimed to have been "monogamous" during the past year, and of this 24 percent, 5 percent drank urine, 7 percent engag-ed in sex involving insertion of a fist in their rectums, 33 percent ingested feces, 53 percent swallowed semen and 59 percent received semen in their rectums in the month just previous to the survey ("AIDS and Sexual Behavior Reported by Homosexual Men in San Francisco," American Journal of Public Health, December 1985, 75: 493-496; quoted in "Homosexuality and Civil Rights," Tony Marco, 1992).

To the present time, 75 to 85 percent of AIDS cases reported are related to homosexual activity, promiscuous heterosexual sex and IV drug abuse. AIDS stubbornly refuses to spread into the population in general, even 20 years after its discovery, despite dire warnings to the contrary.

http://www.marysremnant.org/Friends/DBK/BKHomAids.html

.

Justin: I missed your posting where you claimed you needed marriage to get the following from your sex partner. (Couples can file joint tax filings and receive tax breaks Automatic assumption of spouse’s pension Bereavement Leave The ability to bring your foreign spouse to the USA Insurance Breaks
Medical decisions on behalf of your partner
Social Security Survivor Benefits Tax Breaks
Visitation of partner in hospital or prison).
Everyone of these you can get if you do what single people do. When your sex partner gets papers etc. asking for beneficiaries, contacts, authority to answer for you, all he needs to do is write your name in the boxes. As for tax filings singles get deductions too except for children.Your foreign spouse can come to USA on his own. Medical decisions again, have your partner fill out that form giving you the rights to decisions and visitations. Singles give anybody the rights they want to everyday in this country, get with it and put some effort into reading the legal papers you get in your hands concerning all the stuff you claim you don't have rights to. Every single does, so what's your problem with working through signing papers with your sex partner, or, maybe your sex partner doesn't really want to sign those papers giving you those rights. You're either lazy or something else is going on between you two. The constitution is about race (the color of skin you're born with) not what you have control over. It even says RACE not how you do sex.

David, your sources are simply untrustworthy.They're intellectually low integrity, cherry picked and distorted confabulations. You seem to be absolutely shameless at spreading your last extremely NOTORIOUS bit of nastiness...once again. It's shameless and immoral hate speech, down and dirty. Moral people know that, why don't you?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009

Gregory...

You have a penchant for dismissing everything t5hat does not fully support your homosexual agenda as being uinreliable, untrue, racist, bigoted, hate speech... Blah, blah, blah...

The practive of homosexuality is both Biblically disgusting and immoral.. The practice of homosexuality is a sexual perversion...

You choose to engage in the practice of homosexuality... It is a free-will choice behavior...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

.

Gay people, however, have rejected that. They alone don't wish to be lab specimens and science theory. They are a living community, and a living community is what it says it is...in this case. Gay.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009

Gregory...

The main thing that the majority of homosexuals have rejected is acknowledging the truth...

The doctors at the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta called him "Patient Zero." A stunningly handsome French-Canadian airline steward, Gaetan Dugas had over 2,500 male sexual partners on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean by the time he died at age 31.

It was in France, the doctors think, that he picked up the AIDS virus. Thence he brought the virus to both San Francisco and New York, where he infected partners through anonymous bathhouse sex and pickups from gay bars. At least forty of the first 248 homosexuals diagnosed with AIDS as of April 12, 1982 had had sex either with Dugas or with someone who had. ("Typhoid Mary" Mallon, by contrast, had fifty-three confirmed cases attributed to her, of whom three died.)

Long after his diagnosis, Dugas would sodomize willing partners in dimly lit cubicles, then turn up the lights and point to the purplish Kaposi's sarcoma lesions on his skin. "I've got gay cancer," he would say. "I'm going to die, and so are you."


Rock Hudson
No one will ever be certain whether Dugas was the one who began the AIDS epidemic in the United States, but it would be fitting if he was. For the way he continued business as usual – or pleasure, as it were – even after his diagnosis is representative of the larger tale of miscreants and fools told in Randy Shilts's And the Band Played On, a remarkable feat of investigative journalism that traces the AIDS epidemic from the death of Danish physician Margrethe Rask, a lesbian who contracted AIDS in Africa in 1976, up to mid-1985 and the death of Rock Hudson.

An openly homosexual writer for the San Francisco Chronicle and the nation' s first full-time AIDS reporter, Shilts names names, slams reputations, and yet poignantly testifies to those few who fought desperately to get the band's attention and those who died horribly while it continued to play.

http://www.fumento.com/shilts.html

.

Straight, Gay, Bisexual...moral people just don't care...and neither does my Bible. My Bible cares deeply about idolatry, and you very obviously don't. You care about perpetuating the bogeyman idol of "homosexuality." Why? The Bible doesn't support idolatry.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009

Gregory...

Then why do you obviously reject God and worship homosexuality?

And thumb you vitriolic nose at Christians all the while regurgitating a call to follow the Golden Rule ad nauseum?


.

@Original Anna: "Everyone of these you can get if you do what single people do. ...so what's your problem with working through signing papers...maybe your sex partner doesn't really want to sign those papers giving you those rights. You're either lazy or something else is going on between you two." I think it is the "something else". It's all about legitimizing perversion, which is about power. Thanks for you practical advice (I learned something) which unfortunately is ignored by the gay community and which most in the heterosexual community don't think about.

There's no use in trying to defend ourselves with non-believers. They're only coming onto this site to spread their lies and hatred (especially their ignorance about the Bible), as well as to get a rise out of us.

-Proverbs 22:24-25
"24 Do not make friends with a hot-tempered man,
do not associate with one easily angered,
25 or you may learn his ways
and get yourself ensnared."

-2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

To Gregory and the others who are being cruel... just to let you know, it's not working. I actually feel more sorry for you every time you make a vindictive comment, because it seems that you're only searching for attention. You seem to be a very angry and unhappy person. You can express your anger in a decent and mature manner, but you're choosing to do the opposite.

Why not go on a muslim site and try to talk them out of their beliefs? They're literally murdering homosexuals in the mid-east. Why here? Obviously you're feeling convicted. I pray that you come to know Jesus as your Savior, then you will truly know who you are.
-John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Straight, Gay, Bisexual...moral people just don't care...and neither does my Bible.
Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
-------------------------------------------

Which "Bible" is that? The one YOU chose for convenience?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009
Being Gay isn't a perversion.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Those who claim to be homosexual engage in a perversion.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009
60 plus years of sociological and psychological show conclusively that being Gay just happens...
-----------------------------------------------------------
There is nothing conclusive about it. There is absolutely no scientific, unbiased, uncorrupte evidence to show that homosexuality is anything but choice arising out of the sin nature, not the Godly nature.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009
... and generally isn't acquired...
-----------------------------------------------------------
It is acquired by choice.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009
How one acts and explains to one's self, one's same sex orientation is heavily dependent upon human social constructs, as it is with other-sex orientations.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Unintentionally, you spilled the beans. You admit that homosexuality is a "human social construct." It is not a Godly construct.

I'm glad we got that settled.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009
The perversions that one should be concerned about, are predatory perversions of authority...such as pederasty, rape, blackmailing someone to have sex with you, spousal, doctor/patient/, clergy/parishioner abuse etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------
And we are concerned about those, too. We are multitaskers.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009
The Constitution, not common bigotries, is why the court system rules on civil rights. Legislatures can add and expand civil rights, but as the Supreme Court's "Loving v Virginia" ruling shows, can't retract them...even if they can get away with that for an unconscionable amount of time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
What civil Rights are involved here?

After all, those who claim to be homosexual are either male/men, or female/women. There is no third sex.

The law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, leaves no one out. All men may marry women, or choose not to marry women. All women may marry men, or choose not to marry men.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 7, 2009
Civil rights are legal issues. Why would you separate the two?
-----------------------------------------------------------
We're not.

Men who claim to be homosexual may marry women who claim to be homosexual.

religious beliefs are not adequate grounds for denying other Americans equal civil rights.
Posted by: Kathleen at December 6, 2009
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nobody is denying anybody anything here.

All men may marry women. All women may marry men.

There is no third sex.

Exactly how does allowing two men or two women to marry each other affect my marriage or your marriage?
Posted by: Dionne at December 6, 2009
-----------------------------------------------------------
Is not a matter of being selfish about my own situation. It's a matter of culture, society and country.


Where, in the Word of God, does God say that homosexuality is Godly?

Where does He say that homosexuality conforms to a Godly purpose?

==Did Jesus really tell you or me to hate anything?==

Yes. Iniquity.

Did Jesus love the Devil?

==What matters to moral people is the Golden Rule.==

To love my neighbor.

So, I go to a brothel where my neighbor works. Am I loving my neighbor as Christ intends? Of course not.

Biblical "love" does not answer to a worldly definition.

== I want my neighbor to be happy and loved.==

Does that love align with biblical "love"? Or does it align with what you choose to think is "love"?

== I want to be happy and loved.==

In a biblical way, or in a way that YOU decide then assign a bibilical interpretation?

==...but I know that different people, things and situations make some people happy and others unmoved...(such as Jazz).==

In a worldly sense, yes. You're mixing worldly with biblical. It's the kinda deception we're warned about.

== We are not all happy or sad in the same way.==

That's the way it is in the world.

== I, and likely my neighbor as well, want to be loved by a person which I desire and need, somehow, to love...==

Nobody is stopping you, nor anybody.

==...for more than just love, but to be as one with.==

Nobody stops you, but we don't have-ta go along with it. And we don't cuz God says that, if we support iniquity, we are guilty, too.

== Man was not meant to be alone.==

The Devil does the same thing you did there: Pervert the Word. You, conveniently, avoid and ignore the rest of what God said in order to make it appear that God said other than what He said.

God, saying that the man should not be alone, brought a woman to the man, not a man to the man [neither did He bring the man to the woman]. Nowhere in His Word does He say He brought a man to a man for the purposes YOU say.

You may have snowed others here, but, now, I'm here, and you won't snow me.

Obviously you're feeling convicted. I pray that you come to know Jesus as your Savior, then you will truly know who you are.
-John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Posted by: Carrie at December 8, 2009


Where, in the Word of God, does God say that homosexuality is Godly?

Where does He say that homosexuality conforms to a Godly purpose?

Posted by: Mr. Incredible at December 8, 2009


Hallelujah!

Fresh troops!

Commoror Fidelis!

.

I'd like those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists to answer those questions.

==About that "hating the sin" thing. That is hate. I try not to hate sin...==

That's ok cuz God does. We do, too.

Where does God say that "marriage" is other than the union of a man, as husband,and a woman, as his wife? Maybe I missed it.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
there is no moral or Biblical reason to deny full citizen equality to all adults, regardless of sexual orientations.
-----------------------------------------------
Except that there is.

Where, then, does God, in His Word, say that "marriage" is anything other than the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
The Bible clobber verses abused by homophobes, haters and/or the ignorant, and that is exactly what they are by this time, are ripped out of their contexts...
----------------------------------------------
What context? Literal context? Historical context? YOUR context? What?

The fact is that a diamond is cut best by a diamond. Scripture upon Scripture IS the context.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
... and shamefully misapplied.
----------------------------------------------
Translation: "I don't like the Truth, and, so, I will try to make THEM responsible!"

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
They not only are being used in quite racist-like ways...
-----------------------------------------------
This is not a racial issue. Race is immutable. The choice to go homosexual is mutable.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
Civil Rights shouldn't need any more constitutional amendments.
----------------------------------------------------
Neither should the Word of God require any garbage interpretations by those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
Marriage is a legal contract. It's recognized and subsidized by the our governments. Fine by me.
-------------------------------------------------------
And there's the legality of the Word of God.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
But, to capriciously deny some people access to those subsidies because of ancient bigotries and misconceptions...that's just wrong and nakedly, shamelessly greedy to boot.
------------------------------------------------------------
Complain to God about it, and, maybe, He'll change His mind.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
Legal marriages might be a state granted privilege like a drivers license, but even there, there are civil rights involved in accessing privileges.
----------------------------------------------------
So, it's about "legal privileges" and not love????? You people were teling us it's about love. What happened???

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
If adult, consenting Gay couples think they are being unfairly shut out from accessing the government subsidies involved in legalized marriages, for any reason at all, then I would think that in a more just society, it would be for the courts to decide if the civil rights of Gay people are not being respected.
------------------------------------------------------
There are only two sexes: male and female.

Those who claim to be homosexual are either male, or female. There is no third sex.

So, men claiming to be homosexual have the same opportunity all men do, and women claiming to be homosexual have the same opportunity all women do.

Where's the unequal treatment?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
If the courts decide that the civil rights of same sex couples are not being denied, then Congress and state governments can pass laws expanding access to legal marriages.
------------------------------------------------------
They have had the chance and have decided not to give those who claim to be homosexual extra Rights/privileges.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
It should be courts first, I think, legislatures next...
--------------------------------------------------------------
Then, change the Constitution cuz the Legislative is the first branch. Courts are third.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
...many in the religious right want Gay people to do...die...or at least, just somehow vanish.
-------------------------------------------------------------
AIDS is doing that work.

Those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists here are choking on my posts, huh.

It's a shame that the NY Senate was cowled by outrageous, hysterical, greedy bigots from doing the right thing.
Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
------------------------------------
Uhhhh, you didn't see the demonstrations in California during the last days before and after the Prop 8 vote, did you. Talk about "outrageous, hysterical and greedy"!

Posted by: Carrie at December 3, 2009
Why do homosexuals say that homosexual marriage is a civil right?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Cuz they gotta cast it in a light that unthinking Americans will accept. Thinking Americans can see right through it, though, and I'm here to lettem know that I ain't gonna take it.

Posted by: Carrie at December 3, 2009
Marriage has been between one man and one woman since the beginning of civilization... why change it?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Cuz THAT's what the Devil does.

Posted by: Carrie at December 3, 2009
Homosexuality is very unnatural to me.
---------------------------------------------------------------
(Exo 32:26) Who is on the LORD'S side?

God is pleased that you are on His side.

Posted by: Carrie at December 3, 2009
And because it's unnatural to me, homosexuals are allowed to call me a bigot and a homophobe? And that's acceptable?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Their barbs should bounce right off of you like Superman.

Posted by: Carrie at December 3, 2009
When two men or two women can reproduce to create another human being, then we'll talk. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Neither does God. He's shruggin' His shoulders, too.

Posted by: Carrie at December 3, 2009
Greg, if you're not a Christian why are you on this site?
-------------------------------------------------------------
Cuz that is the MO of those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists -- that is, The Homosexual Internet Militia [HIM].

Their marching orders include getting on these sites and disrupting, kickin' up dust and blaming us for the commotion.

Posted by: Carrie at December 3, 2009
Yelling and calling people names isn't helping.
-----------------------------------------------------------
However, in far too many cases, it takes us off our game, and THAT's part of the agenda, too. Just don't let it happen.

Soooo, where ARE they now??

So, Carrie, I guess we took back the site cuz they don't know what hit'em.

So, Carrie, I guess we took back the site cuz they don't know what hit'em.

Posted by: Mr. Incredible at December 8, 2009

Mr I...

Welcome...

Allow me to offer you and Carrie the Cyber equivalent of the right hand of fellowship...

Gregorys MO is to cut out when he is not the dominant poster..

I believe that he has a litany of postings on file...

He just retreats to a fresh article to repost them with sometimes a few minor changes and rarely, just a touch of originality....

You have to kinda follow him around, or head him off at the pass...

After he has exhausted his very tired repertoire, he wears out pretty fast...

He is one of the Homosexual posse...

"Christian Lawyer" is another, as is Justin and Anthony...

Dan, you can trust as an ally...he'll back you up, if your teaching is sound...

Original Anna is another ally..

Sarah appears to be one too...

Commoror Fidelis!

David

Anything that I can do to help, Just let me know...

Well, David, these people, in almost every place I visit, never answer the questions I pose, nor the issues I raise. That's cuz they want not further to draw attention to the fact that they haven't completely thought out their agenda which, of course, comes directly from a headquarters somewhere.

As you know, this is the way the Devil works, suggesting, then leaving a victim hangin' when the goin' gets tough, leaving the victim look like a fool.

The MO seems to be this: Homosexual Internet Militia headquarters issues a list of talking points, and you'll notice, over a period of time, that about every three, or four, days,they repeat the same arguments from different persons, trying to disguise the fact that they are all on the same HIM page. So, they think that this traps us into going around and around in circles, trapped by an endless argument.

Well, now, they don't know that it is simply an opportunity to get the Lord's Message out there again and again; they are helping us and the Lord.

It's easy for some of us to quote Leviticus again and again; but the best answer to these people is to rely on a scriptural line of thought that defeats their argument, that goes beyond just one verse in Leviticus. We have to say that Romans reiterates Leviticus. We have to say that a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, is the "marriage" standard throughout the Word of God, and that in no place in the Word does God unify a man and a man in holy matrimony. Things like that.

Now, I figure that they will be back with reinforcements cuz I know that HIM headquarters and they just cannot stand such a beatdown. I welcome it, and they will get beat down again cuz they simply cannot answer those questions and resolve those issues I have brought up.

[Of course, we're not s'posed-ta rejoice in smackin' down the enemy, rather rejoice in the Power of the Lord, and that's what I welcome, really.]

So, thanks, I welcome your input and the input of our other bethren and sisteren as we call on the Lord to stop their mouths!

Lemme know how better I can help.

==Gregorys MO is to cut out when he is not the dominant poster.==

There's a new gun in town.

==I believe that he has a litany of postings on file...==

He's too busy choking on what I posted to increase that pile.

==He just retreats to a fresh article to repost them with sometimes a few minor changes and rarely, just a touch of originality....==

That's ok. We just give him good lessons from the Word, as I pointed out. We are not ignorant of his devices.

==You have to kinda follow him around, or head him off at the pass...==

My experience is that we don't have-ta go lookin' for them. They find us. However, with the Lord for us, who can be against us?

==After he has exhausted his very tired repertoire, he wears out pretty fast...==

That's what happens when one is weak and has weak arguments. We have the Words of Truth and Grace.

==He is one of the Homosexual posse...
==

I'm not afraid of them. They and the Devil are all very greatly po'd at me cuz they know they can't intimidate me.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 2, 2009
there is no moral or Biblical reason to deny full citizen equality to all adults, regardless of sexual orientations.
-----------------------------------------------
It all depends on what "morals" you're talking about.

It all depends on what "Bible" you're using. It appears that you are using the Homosexual Version of the Reverse-Meaning-Justification Translation of God's Word, the first edition of which the Devil used on Eve in the Garden.

So, we can see why you see no Moral, nor biblical, reason.

==Moral people don't care, anyway.==

Which "morals"?

==there is no moral or Biblical reason to deny full citizen equality to all adults, regardless of sexual orientations.==

What equality is being denied, given that those who claim they are homosexual are either male, or female; that there is no third sex; that I can do no more than you can do?

You'll say -- and this is the tired ol' argument you people bring up and has been answered again and again -- you can't marry the one you love. Well, neither can I.

There's a woman down the street whom I love. She's married. I may not marry her. Where are MY Rights?

I love my dog, and, yet, I may not marry her. I demand equal Rights!

There's this light pole I really love. I can't marry it. Why is everybody so hateful!?

The homosexual argument is just silly.

[Of course, we're not s'posed-ta rejoice in smackin' down the enemy, rather rejoice in the Power of the Lord, and that's what I welcome, really.]

So, thanks, I welcome your input and the input of our other bethren and sisteren as we call on the Lord to stop their mouths!

Lemme know how better I can help.

Posted by: Mr. Incredible at December 8, 2009

I am in full agreement that all praise goes to the Lord...

For I completely believe this...

1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

And they run because of this fact...

John 3:18 "There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God.

John 3:19 Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

John 3:20 They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished.

John 3:21 But those who do what is right come to the light gladly, so everyone can see that they are doing what God wants."

I completely agree with you about the boomerang effect that happens to homosexuals who attempt to come here and preach Satan to the children of God...

Job 5:12 He frustrates the plans of the crafty, so their efforts will not succeed.

Job 5:13 He catches those who think they are wise in their own cleverness, so that their cunning schemes are thwarted.

Job 5:14 They grope in the daylight as though they were blind; they see no better in the daytime than at night.

Job 5:15 He rescues the poor from the cutting words of the strong. He saves them from the clutches of the powerful.

Job 5:16 And so at last the poor have hope, and the fangs of the wicked are broken.


I am glad to have you here...

And I welcome your insight...

.


Mr. I: Welcome to tag-team posting. I like your style. Matt. 18:20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

And so it grows....To "Christian Lawyer".... Once again, when you are definitively proven wrong... This is just flatly wrong...That's a ridiculous notion and... is just hateful.... You completely misunderstand the law... your willingness to disavow what you said in printed word is staggering. And your (mis)understanding of basic legal principles is boundless -- pretty much as messed up as your failure to understand the basic concept of "precedent" last year. No, no, no! The first part of this is false and the second part is just ludicrous....That's sheer idiocy.... That's willful blindness.... If you were really all about "Truth," I should think you'd stick to actual facts, rather than fantasy.... Actually, I just quoted what you said....

.

Thanks, Dan!

@CL: Then let's reform the laws to make those transfers of benefits possible at a reasonable price. Then let's see if they will take advantage of that. No need to redefine marriage just b/c a small misguided group demand it. But I think it is more about defying God instead, legitimizing an act He declares is detestable. It is about the gay community laughing in the face of Christians and crowing, "We won! We've gotten the the US courts to do what we want." Nope. Don't think we want that. Wouldn't be prudent.

OOPS! I thought it didn't post the first time.

Golden Rule informed morals. You don't have to be Christian to have them, and you can be a Christian and not have them, as CT continually demonstrates.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"Gay" isn't the same thing as "race" (though both are somewhat flexible social constructs), but you wouldn't know that from the religious right's very racist-like responses to Gay petitions and demands for full citizenship.

Or, is that all the religious right knows how to do, react to civil rights demands from anyone in racist-like ways?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009

Gregory...

"Chestnuts roasting on an open fire"... But I digress...

To put it politely, I've heard you regurgitations before...

Just in case you have overlooked the facts...

The practice of homosexuality is an abomination according to all things Biblical...

Like Mr I has so eloquently stated... Ther are only two sexes... Male and female... A homosexual male has all of the same rights that a heterosexual male has... Likewise a homosexual female has all of the same rights as a heterosexual female...

A homosexual man has the right to marry a homosexual female... Outside of that, homosexuals would have to be extended preferential citizen status... Which is unconstitutional...

If you don't like it...

Move to Canada...

.

@CL: Funny, DH and his ilk simply quote the Bible to you and your ilk - and you judge them. You have no evidence that he has ripped any verse out of context. Nor have you any evidence that the Bible condones ss marriage or homosexual behavior. To the contrary. Look up the contexts of the verses DH et al posts, for crying out loud. And examine church history. The Church from her inception has upheld the same interpretation as DH and his "ilk". He's not the first to hold to that interpretation. So if you think he is a hater spewing hateful hate, then I suppose you're also calling the Apostle Paul, the other apostles, the post apostalic fathers, the Nicean fathers, the anteNicean fathers, the reformers, those of the Weslyan revival, etc., etc. (not to mention Moses!) haters all spewing hateful hate? Last I checked there is no opening on the Trinity, CL. You can't just change what God's word means just b/c you want to be pc or think your gay friends are nice, or just b/c you prefer the wisdom of this world to the foolishness of God's word. I will stick with the word of God rather than the passing fancy of postmodern soothsayers.
I Cor. 1:18ff "18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written,
"I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;

23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

After all, CL, You, a lawyer, trying to make a case for homosexual behavior/ssm from the bible. That's a little like You trying to make a case for slavery using the US constitution. Oh, wait, that was done by the South. And it was wrong.

^^Historical context and the Golden Rule do not make the Bible say that "homosexuality" is a sin.^^

It's true. However, God says that what we now call "homosexuality" is an "abomination." That clear enough for us. We understand it's not clear enough for you. That unclarity is what you use to justify homosexuality. We understand that.

^^ "Homosexuality" is a recent and now superseded science theory, and briefly in the United States, a social construct...an identity and community label. That has been rejected. There are Gay people; they are not 'homosexuals.' ^^

A rose by any other name...

^^What is condemned in the Bible is not "homosexuality," but idolatry.^^

God condemns what we now call "homosexuality" as an "abomination."

^^Go read Leviticus clobber verses again.^^

We have, and we also have read Romans 1 which reiterates Leviticus.

^^Moral people no longer care if someone is Gay. ^^

Of what "morals"?

^^Golden Rule morals people try always to know what to care about, and what not to care about.^^

Yes, according to the morals they chosen for the moment which change in the next.

^^I'm not "reversing" the meaning of the Bible.^^

We know that you would like to think so. That's part of the deception that is taken hold of you. The deception you reinforce.

^^ I'm recovering the meaning.^^

You've defeated yourself, and, now, you're trying to deceive us. It's not landing.

^^ It's the anti-homosexualists...^^

God is anti-homosexual. He says it in Leviticus and reiterates it in Romans.

^^Who are ignoring the meaning...^^

You people.

^^... and making idols of their own...^^

Not we.

^^ More and more people, I hope, are coming to see it for what it is, a false god.^^

Then stop worshiping homosexuality.

^^ They don't need a "healing" of their "homosexuality."^^

A rich man is sold to the things that make him rich. Evil doesn't want to come to the light of the darkness hides its evil.

^^ Science says it's not something that needs "heeling." ^^

There is no scientific, unbiased, uncorrupted evidence that homosexuality is natural.

^^Sociologists, I think, usually don't even use the label "homosexual" anymore, and other disciplines seem to be following. ^^

That has nothing to do with Science. It has to do with pressure groups.

^^Gay people don't need to "struggle with their same-sex feelings."^^

They need to struggle with an eternity of damnation cuz-a homosexuality.

^^Gay people are your neighbors...^^

So what?

^^... perhaps your relatives, maybe even your child, and you need them.^^

However, I have no need to support their chosen, homosexual, alternative-lifestyle, orientation option.

^^Gay people don't need the nakedly greedy self-righteous looking down their superior noses at them...^^

No, they need Christ, and they don't have Him as long as they willingly and willfully choose to go homosexual.

^^As Dr. Martin Luther King's Gay friend, teacher, adviser pointed out: "Racism isn't just about black and white."^^

Race is immutable. Homosexuality is mutable.

^^"Gay" isn't the same thing as "race" (though both are somewhat flexible social constructs), but you wouldn't know that from the religious right's very racist-like responses to Gay petitions and demands for full citizenship.^^

Those who claim to be homosexual have full citizenship. No one has any less, nor more, than they do.

^^Or, is that all the religious right knows how to do, react to civil rights demands from anyone in racist-like ways? ^^

Those who claim to be homosexual are either male, or female. That means man, or woman.

The law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, deny no one. Both the man and the woman may be, as they would claim, homosexual.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
And, to a certain extent, letting you spew has its benefits. In Roemer v. Evans, the U.S. Supreme Court pointed to such hatefulness...
-----------------------------------------------------------
So what? Two YOU, opposition is hate. What else is new?

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
"First, the amendment has the peculiar property of imposing a broad and undifferentiated disability on a single named group, an exceptional and, as we shall explain, invalid form of legislation. Second, its sheer breadth is so discontinuous with the reasons offered for it that the amendment seems inexplicable by anything but animus toward the class that it affects; it lacks a rational relationship to legitimate state interests. … It is not within our constitutional tradition to enact laws of this sort. Central both to the idea of the rule of law and to our own Constitution's guarantee of equal protection is the principle that government and each of its parts remain open on impartial terms to all who seek its assistance. "`Equal protection of the laws is not achieved through indiscriminate imposition of inequalities.'" Sweatt v. Painter, 339 U.S. 629, 635 (1950) (quoting Shelley v. Kraemer, 334 U.S. 1, 22 (1948))....
-----------------------------------------------------------
That says nothing about those who claim to be homosexual. It doesn't legitimize homosexuality as an element of the created being.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
A second and related point is that laws of the kind now before us raise the inevitable inference that the disadvantage imposed is born of animosity toward the class of persons affected. "[I]f the constitutional conception of `equal protection of the laws' means anything, it must at the very least mean that a bare . . . desire to harm a politically unpopular group cannot constitute a legitimate governmental interest." Department of Agriculture v. Moreno, 413 U.S. 528, 534 (1973). … Amendment 2, however, in making a general announcement that gays and lesbians shall not have any particular protections from the law, inflicts on them immediate, continuing, and real injuries that outrun and belie any legitimate justifications that may be claimed for it. We conclude that, in addition to the far reaching deficiencies of Amendment 2 that we have noted, the principles it offends, in another sense, are conventional and venerable; a law must bear a rational relationship to a legitimate governmental purpose, Kadrmas v. Dickinson Public Schools, 487 U.S. 450, 462 (1988), and Amendment 2 does not.
-----------------------------------------------------------
You'll notice that, so far, the Court doesn't say that hate, as an operation of the mind, cannot be legislated.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
The primary rationale the State offers for Amendment 2 is respect for other citizens' freedom of association, and in particular the liberties of landlords or employers who have personal or religious objections to homosexuality. Colorado also cites its interest in conserving resources to fight discrimination against other groups. The breadth of the Amendment is so far removed from these particular justifications that we find it impossible to credit them. We cannot say that Amendment 2 is directed to any identifiable legitimate purpose or discrete objective. It is a status based enactment divorced from any factual context from which we could discern a relationship to legitimate state interests; it is a classification of persons undertaken for its own sake, something the Equal Protection Clause does not permit. "[C]lass legislation . . . [is] obnoxious to the prohibitions of the Fourteenth Amendment . . . ." Civil Rights Cases, 109 U. S., at 24.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nobody is denying freedom of association. Associate all you want. However, no one has the Right to a protection of more association than someone else.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
We must conclude that Amendment 2 classifies homosexuals not to further a proper legislative end but to make them unequal to everyone else. This Colorado cannot do. A State cannot so deem a class of persons a stranger to its laws. Amendment 2 violates the Equal Protection Clause, and the judgment of the Supreme Court of Colorado is affirmed."
Romemer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620 (1996).
-----------------------------------------------------------
As persons, those who claim to be homosexual enjoy equal protection of the laws. As "homosexuals," they do not.

Who's preaching Satan, David? Me, Christian Lawyer, or people who rip clobber verses from the living word of the Bible, and who worship the false idol of the Homosexual Boogieman?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009

Ohhh... So now it is the living word of the Bible eh?

Funny thing... That is the first time I have seen you come close to acknowledging the Bible as the living word of God...

You see... It requires the Holy Spirit to make the Bible come alive to the reader...

It is heresy to even begin to pretend that God blesses the pratice of unrepentant homosexuality...

So the answer to your question becomes pretty self evident...

And FYI... Disco died in the seventies...

.

You'll notice that, so far, the Court doesn't say that hate, as an operation of the mind, cannot be legislated.

-- -- >

Notice that, so far, the Court doesn't say that hate, as an operation of the mind, can be legislated.


Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
I've posted here long enough for most folks to know that not all Christians are as hateful as you...
-----------------------------------------------------------
That's part of the agenda of those who claim to be homosexual, their advocates, supporters and activists, to say that we hate.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
... that Christ's love is available to all who seek him...
-----------------------------------------------------------
He loves all, but, like any good parent, His love does not preclude discipline and justice.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
... that you have twisted the words of the Bible to suit your own preconceived prejudices...
-----------------------------------------------------------
And, yet, you fail to take apart my arguments and post a line of scriptural thought to defeat them. Of course, you know you can't.

Where is the discrimination in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife? After all, those who claim to be homosexual are either male/man, or female/woman. There is no third sex. The man they claim to be homosexual, and a woman may claim to be homosexual.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
... and that there are many Spirit-filled Christians who are also gay.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Spirit is allergic to those who disobey God.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
I know this because I have met gay Christians...
-----------------------------------------------------------
OXYMORON ALERT! OXYMORON ALERT! OXYMORON ALERT!

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
... whose lives exemplify the fruits of the Spirit...
-----------------------------------------------------------
To some people, appearances are everything.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
I don't need to respond to all of your nonsense.
-----------------------------------------------------------
That's cuz you can't.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
The story of Adam and Eve was used to oppose women education, woman suffrage and women rights movements by religious "conservatives."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Blame those who used it wrongly.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
Figures that they would now abuse poor Adam and Eve once again to oppose another full citizenship movement.
-----------------------------------------------------------
No one is being denied full citizenship.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
Have they no shame?
-----------------------------------------------------------
We have no shame telling the Truth.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
Has everyone else never studied history, or was born yesterday?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like you were born yesterday.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
If we were to do "Adam and Eve" like the religious right is remakes the story...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Except that we don't remake the story.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
... then we all must marry, regardless of circumstances.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Word of God doesn't require marriage. Thus, there's no reason to say that He does.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
We shouldn't choose whom we marry.
-----------------------------------------------------------
No one is stopping you from having the same choice as everyone else from the same alternatives.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009
Our spouses will be chosen for us by our father or God's 'regent,' our pastor?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Not at all.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson December 8, 2009
We should also forbid our sons from making a living by raising crops, as Cain did.
-----------------------------------------------------------
That's the Old Testament. Those were born again live under Grace.

And so it grows....To "Christian Lawyer".... No, no, no! The first part of this is false and the second part is just ludicrous... Once again, when you are definitively proven wrong... This is just flatly wrong...That's a ridiculous notion and... is just hateful.... You completely misunderstand the law... your willingness to disavow what you said in printed word is staggering. And your (mis)understanding of basic legal principles is boundless -- pretty much as messed up as your failure to understand the basic concept of "precedent" last year... your hate-filled diatribes will never diminish... That's sheer idiocy.... That's willful blindness.... If you were really all about "Truth," I should think you'd stick to actual facts, rather than fantasy....you have twisted the words of the Bible to suit your own preconceived prejudices... Actually, I just quoted what you said....to a certain extent, letting you spew has its benefits... I don't need to respond to all of your nonsense.

Those were born again live under Grace. -- -- > Those who are born again live under Grace.

@ Dan,

If your response to my question was a reasoned and thought out response-

How then do you explain the fact that neither in Canada nor in Scandanavia nor in any other European country that has legalized same sex marriage do you see any such perversion as you called it.

Should I then infer the following?

a) You think that we Americans are somehow made of
different stuff. That would make us do something
that no other people in other countries do.

b) You have proof that we are indeed more depraved than all other Europeans.

c) Your reasoned response was not very reasoned and simply smacks of pure emotionalism based on your dislike for things homosexual.

I have no interest in C. If it is A or B. Can you provide the data to show this increase in perversion in European societies.

Thanks

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
Dan, the simplest way to provide those benefits is to allow gay marriage and for Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, atheists, agnostics, etc....
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Devil works that way, too. He tries to make it look so simple, so normal, so just like everybody else. He tried to normalize it by associating it with normal things. That's the deception. Week people will believe it.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
To realize that CIVIL MARRIAGE is no reflection on their religious views, or lack thereof.
-----------------------------------------------------------
God says that, if we support iniquity, we are guilty, too.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
Catholics believe second or third marriages are immoral and void (to God).
-----------------------------------------------------------
So what? Homosexuality and so-called "same-sex 'marriage'" go deeper than that.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
Nevertheless, such marriages are legal, and schools acknowledge that some people get divorced and remarried (bio of Pres. Reagan, anyone?), without any imposition on the rights of Catholics to believe otherwise.
-----------------------------------------------------------
However, homosexuality and so-called "same-sex 'marriage'" injure the very foundation of society and culture and country.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
Gay marriage, which I believe will be legal in this country within a few years...
-----------------------------------------------------------
It already is.

A man who claims to be homosexual may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
... there ARE Spirit-filled Christian gays...
-----------------------------------------------------------
OXYMORON ALERT! OXYMORON ALERT! OXYMORON ALERT!

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
... and many Spirit-filled straight Christians, among those advocating for gay marriage.
-----------------------------------------------------------
God says that those who support iniquity are guilty, too.

He tried to normalize it by associating it with normal things. -- -- > He tries to normalize it by associating it with normal things.

Week people will believe it. -- -- > Weak people will believe it.

David

You said that Christian Lawyer was wrong in his legal opinion. Are you a lawyer? Because I am a para legal and will be entering law school next year.

And Christian Lawyer is correct. Can you kindly provide the precedents showing that Christian Lawyer is incorrect.

===================================================
And so it grows....To "Christian Lawyer".... No, no, no! The first part of this is false and the second part is just ludicrous... Once again, when you are definitively proven wrong... This is just flatly wrong...That's a ridiculous notion and... is just hateful.... You completely misunderstand the law... your willingness to disavow what you said in printed word is staggering. And your (mis)understanding of basic legal principles is boundless --

Like Mr I has so eloquently stated... Ther are only two sexes... Male and female... A homosexual male has all of the same rights that a heterosexual male has... Likewise a homosexual female has all of the same rights as a heterosexual female...

A homosexual man has the right to marry a homosexual female... Outside of that, homosexuals would have to be extended preferential citizen status... Which is unconstitutional...
Posted by: David Hardy at December 8, 2009

It's so simple, isn't it?

Christian Lawyer is correct.
Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009

Give us examples of what you say you believe is correct.

I find in remarkable that you David Hardy and you Mr. Incredible think that you have won an argument or shut up those people with dissenting views.

I am a Chrisitan with a younger brother, who got married to his partner of 11 years earlier this year.

From some of the posts that I've read here from both of you - it is just a matter of noise with no real intelligence behind your statements. My brother and I had a good chuckle over some of them.

But as I was saying, noise- and people just tend to do what with noise? Well we tune it out of course.


I find in remarkable that you David Hardy and you Mr. Incredible think that you have won an argument or shut up those people with dissenting views.

I am a Chrisitan with a younger brother, who got married to his partner of 11 years earlier this year.

From some of the posts that I've read here from both of you - it is just a matter of noise with no real intelligence behind your statements. My brother and I had a good chuckle over some of them.

But as I was saying, noise- and people just tend to do what with noise? Well we tune it out of course.


I have no interest in C. If it is A or B. Can you provide the data to show this increase in perversion in European societies.

Thanks

Posted by: Dionne at December 8, 2009

Dionne...

Does North America count?

If so.... Here ya go....

The B.C. government is asking the province's Supreme Court to decide whether Canada's anti-polygamy law violates the Charter of Rights, Attorney General Michael de Jong announced Thursday.

The move means Crown prosecutors will postpone their appeal of a recent B.C. Supreme Court ruling that threw out charges against two leaders of a polygamous sect living in Bountiful, B.C.

"Until Canadians and the justice system have clarity about the constitutionality of our polygamy laws, all provinces, including ours, face a lengthy and costly legal process in prosecuting alleged offences," De Jong said in a statement.


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/10/22/bc-supreme-court-ruling-polygamy-sought.html

.

==In Roemer v. Evans, the U.S. Supreme Court pointed to such hatefulness in overturning a Colorado constitutional amendment...==

However, the Court did not command anybody not to hate. He did not say that "hate" cannot enter into the operation of the mind while deliberating legislation. After all, those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists use hate to rationalize. How come you people hate so much?

Below is a quote from Christian Lawyer.

Christian Lawyer said: "The primary rationale the State offers for Amendment 2 is respect for other citizens' freedom of association, and in particular the liberties of landlords or employers who have personal or religious objections to homosexuality. Colorado also cites its interest in conserving resources to fight discrimination against other groups. The breadth of the Amendment is so far removed from these particular justifications that we find it impossible to credit them. We cannot say that Amendment 2 is directed to any identifiable legitimate purpose or discrete objective. It is a status based enactment divorced from any factual context from which we could discern a relationship to legitimate state interests; it is a classification of persons undertaken for its own sake, something the Equal Protection Clause does not permit. "[C]lass legislation . . . [is] obnoxious to the prohibitions of the Fourteenth Amendment . . . ." Civil Rights Cases, 109 U. S., at 24.

We must conclude that Amendment 2 classifies homosexuals not to further a proper legislative end but to make them unequal to everyone else. This Colorado cannot do. A State cannot so deem a class of persons a stranger to its laws. Amendment 2 violates the Equal Protection Clause, and the judgment of the Supreme Court of Colorado is affirmed."

Romemer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620 (1996). "
====================================================
Mr. Incredible said: "
Give us examples of what you say you believe is correct."

David

You said that Christian Lawyer was wrong in his legal opinion. Are you a lawyer? Because I am a para legal and will be entering law school next year.

And Christian Lawyer is correct. Can you kindly provide the precedents showing that Christian Lawyer is incorrect.

===================================================
And so it grows....To "Christian Lawyer".... No, no, no! The first part of this is false and the second part is just ludicrous... Once again, when you are definitively proven wrong... This is just flatly wrong...That's a ridiculous notion and... is just hateful.... You completely misunderstand the law... your willingness to disavow what you said in printed word is staggering. And your (mis)understanding of basic legal principles is boundless --

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009

Marva...

The posting that you reference is a collection of "Christian Lawyer" quotes... It is growing by leaps and bounds... The only part that I wrote was this... "And so it grows....To "Christian Lawyer".... At this rate of growth, I might have to start posting it in chapters...

As for my profession...

It would be apparent to a grade school dropout that pushing for ther rights of homosexuals is a moot point... Those who choose to identify as homosexuals are already covered by the constitution and enjoy all of the rights of all other full citizens of this country...

In all actuality any push for homosexual rights, without a constitutional ammendment granting them prefered citizen status, woul in effect be unconstitutional...

And therefore illegal...

That's, against the law, for you beginning criminal defense, law students...

.

==they are a minority community which can always be outvoted, except maybe in some small "Gay Ghetto" areas. Determining the rights of a minority community by a vote, a community which can always, ALWAYS be outvoted in every state and federal election... That's just not American democracy. ==

Translation: "I don't like the way the American People vote cuz they always out-vote me and I want them to do things my way. That must mean that they are un-American."

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009
I find in remarkable that you David Hardy and you Mr. Incredible think that you have won an argument...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Well...?

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009
... or shut up those people with dissenting views.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Apparently, we haven't.

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009
I am a Chrisitan with a younger brother, who got married to his partner of 11 years earlier this year.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Explain how the so-called "same-sex 'marriage'" is Godly, according to the Word of God.

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009
From some of the posts that I've read here from both of you - it is just a matter of noise with no real intelligence behind your statements.
-----------------------------------------------------------
You must believe that in order to be able to justify your views.

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009
My brother and I had a good chuckle over some of them.
-----------------------------------------------------------
So what?

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009
But as I was saying, noise- and people just tend to do what with noise? Well we tune it out of course.
-----------------------------------------------------------
You haven't had much success with that yet, have you?

Thanks David Hardy for providing this one case in Canada.

Can we try again? Since this is a case dealing with hetrosexual perversion and since it does not show any correlation to gay marriage: by no logical leap can a rational thinking person use this as an example.

The correlation if it is to be made would instead go like this:

Having hetrosexual marriages will result in hetrosexual pervision and here is one example of this. Let us therefore prohibit hetrosexual marriages.

Can you provide a more applicable example

Might does not create morality, however. It sometimes creates dead and damaged people.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009

Gregory...

Coprophilia creates dead and damaged people...

In 2008, CDC estimated that approximately 56,300 people were newly infected with HIV in 20061 (the most recent year that data are available). Over half (53%) of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men. Black/African American men and women were also strongly affected and were estimated to have an incidence rate than was 7 times as high as the incidence rate among whites. Visit the HIV incidence page for more details.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm

.

David Hardy

If a high school drop out took a basic logic course, before he or she dropped out, they would inform you that there are so many fallacies in your arguments that they too would assume that you also dropped out - and before you managed to take a logic course.

Thank you for your further clarification.

Continue with the noise. You seem to like hearing yourself speak.

But as I was saying, noise- and people just tend to do what with noise? Well we tune it out of course.

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009

Marva...

And you were doing such a good job of tuning us out that you had to come on to this board an wag your cyber finger in our faces and remind us of just how insignificant we are because you are tuning us out and what we say is so comical to you and that you are tuning us out and we are so insignificant and.. Did I mention that you are tuning us out because we are so insignificant yet?

.

Christian Lawyer said: "The primary rationale the State offers for Amendment 2 is respect for other citizens' freedom of association, and in particular the liberties of landlords or employers who have personal or religious objections to homosexuality."
-----------------------------------------------------------
It's true that everybody has the freedom to associate. Nothing in there, so far, about so-called "same-sex 'marriage'"

Christian Lawyer said: "Colorado also cites its interest in conserving resources to fight discrimination against other groups. The breadth of the Amendment is so far removed from these particular justifications that we find it impossible to credit them. We cannot say that Amendment 2 is directed to any identifiable legitimate purpose or discrete objective. It is a status based enactment divorced from any factual context from which we could discern a relationship to legitimate state interests..."
-----------------------------------------------------------
So far, the Court says that it can find no "identifiable, legitimate purpose, or discrete objective" in Amendment 2. The Court is not saying that there cannot be a Amendment 2, only that it cannot find an "identifiable, legitimate purpose, or discrete objective" in that particular Amendment 2. Again, no mention of so-called "same-sex 'marriage.'"

Christian Lawyer said: "...; it is a classification of persons undertaken for its own sake, something the Equal Protection Clause does not permit. "[C]lass legislation . . . [is] obnoxious to the prohibitions of the Fourteenth Amendment . . . ." Civil Rights Cases, 109 U. S., at 24.
-----------------------------------------------------------
And, yet, those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists say that they want a classification of them, as persons, undertaken for its own sake.

In Baake, SCOTUS ruled that groups have no Rights, that only persons do.

Christian Lawyer said: "We must conclude that Amendment 2 classifies homosexuals not to further a proper legislative end but to make them unequal to everyone else. "
-----------------------------------------------------------
And, yet, those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists say that they want a particular classification that does not further a proper legislative end.

Christian Lawyer said: "A State cannot so deem a class of persons a stranger to its laws. Amendment 2 violates the Equal Protection Clause, and the judgment of the Supreme Court of Colorado is affirmed."
Romemer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620 (1996). "
-----------------------------------------------------------
In any case, it applies only to Colorado, and it does not signal a final, Court thinking on the issue. Plus, it doesn't apply to marriage. There is no indication whatsoever that the law is stopping a man who says he is homosexual from marrying.

But as I was saying, noise- and people just tend to do what with noise? Well we tune it out of course.

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009

Marva...

And you were doing such a good job of tuning us out that you had to come on to this board an wag your cyber finger in our faces and remind us of just how insignificant we are because you are tuning us out and what we say is so comical to you and that you are tuning us out and we are so insignificant and.. Did I mention that you are tuning us out because we are so insignificant yet?

Posted by: David Hardy at December 8, 2009

Did I mention that you are tuning us out so much that you felt compelled to double post in order to make certain that we didn't forget that you are tuning us out?

.

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009
David Hardy
Continue with the noise. You seem to like hearing yourself speak.
-----------------------------------------------------------
You tune us out yet?

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
I have, more than once, posted a lengthy explanation of one view of the progressive Christian position on gay marriage.
-----------------------------------------------------------
And I have told you that those who claim to be homosexual may already marry:
A man who claims to be homosexual may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
David Hardy and Dan could not manage to engage him on substance. They merely quoted scripture back at him. Pasting the same words over and over again is not reasoned discussion.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Word of God provides excellent answers. That you don't recognize those answers is irrelevant; they are still THE answer.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
But, then again, Mr. I., you're not really interested in a civil discussion, are you.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Translation: "If you were interested in civil discussion, you would agree with me."

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
And, don't let yourself off the hook for your hatefulness...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Translation: "You don't agree with me, and, therefore, you are hateful."

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
... by claiming that I think everyone who disagrees with me is hateful.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Well...?

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
You are sadly mistaken.
-----------------------------------------------------------
That's what you must think in order to justify yourself.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
Most people who disagree with me are NOT hateful.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for telling us that YOU get to choose.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009
It's just you ... and David Hardy ... and sometimes Dan.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Romans 8:1 [KJV]

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
Mr. I -- You apparently lack "incredible" readings skills.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Romans 8:1 [KJV]

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
The quotes you seem to attribute to me, and then claim are wrong, are actually quotes that I posted from the U.S. Supreme Court opinion in Roemer, as I stated in my post.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Apparently, YOUR reading skills are substandard.

I applied quotes, and, not only that, at the end, I provided the citation.

Not only that, I was answering Marva who wrote that you are correct. I asked her for examples. Not want to make her own argument, rather copy and paste, she just gave me YOUR words, not hers. So, I was answering her post, not yours.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
You're free to disagree with the U.S. Supreme Court, but please don't claim that that's not the current law of the land.
-----------------------------------------------------------
There was a ruling in Colorado. It applies to Colorado only.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
When the Supreme Court speaks, it applies to the whole country.
-----------------------------------------------------------
It does not always apply to the whole country.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
All courts are bound to follow that precedent.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Only in Colorado.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
I didn't say the opinion applied to marriage.
-----------------------------------------------------------
This discussion is about "marriage." You applied the decision to "equal protection." You are trying to link the two. Therefore, we are allowed to proceed on that foggy linkage.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
My point was that the U.S. Supreme Court looks to the hate behind the statute to see if there is any rational basis for it.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Hate" is not the basis for the ruling.

The basis for the ruling is what the Court said is, according to the ruling, a lack of legitimate state interest.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
Pro-gay legislation was upheld, and a state constitutional amendment overturned, in part because of the expressed animosity of the majority toward the targeted group (gays).
-----------------------------------------------------------
No, it wasn't cuz-a what you call "hate."

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
So, hate all you want.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I would hate all I want, if I hated. Of course, I don't. That, however, won't stop you from saying that I do.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
Ultimately, it will come back to haunt you.
-----------------------------------------------------------
No hate in me to haunt me.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
You're free to disagree with the U.S. Supreme Court, but please don't claim that that's not the current law of the land.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The ruling applies only to Colorado for the same reason that the ruling in Florida, in 2000, in the case originally brought by Algore, was relevant only in Florida where idiotic voters said that they were confused and thrown off balance by all the bells and whistles at the polling place.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
So, your only response, Mr. I., to the two links to lengthy explanations of the progressive or even moderate Christian biblical view on gay marriage is mockery.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I'm not interested in liberal Christianity. Liberal Christians are WWAAAAYYYY off base. False prophets. They pervert the Word of God.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 9, 2009
In an effort to become a modern-day Samson...
-----------------------------------------------------------
I have!???

Having hetrosexual marriages will result in hetrosexual pervision and here is one example of this. Let us therefore prohibit hetrosexual marriages.

Can you provide a more applicable example

Posted by: Dionne at December 8, 2009

Dionne...

Your logic has a hole in it..

Sexual perversion abounds... It is quite the hot topic in the Bible...

And all of it is irrevocably condemned...

The subject of your initial query was... And I quote...

"Should I then infer the following?

a) You think that we Americans are somehow made of
different stuff. That would make us do something
that no other people in other countries do.

b) You have proof that we are indeed more depraved than all other Europeans."

The answer to your query was adequately answered by the recent developments in Canada... A culture that is nearly identical to our own... Save for the occasional Eh? added for additional emphasis at the end of statements...

And Yes... They are bigger on Hockey... No... They don't live in igloos... And Yes... They can get Tim Horton's coffee without having to special order it...

But I digress...

The fact remains, that once the door of deviancy is opened... There begins a mad rush of paraphiliacs attepting to tear it off of it's hinges...

.

So, where's the discrimination in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that everybody is either male/man, or female/woman?

Now, if you people are claiming that those who claim to be homosexual are members of a third sex, and that the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, excludes members of this third sex, you may have a point. However, there is no third sex. Everybody who is either male/man, or female/woman, is INCLUDED in the law.

So, again, where's the discrimination? Where is the inequality?

Thank you for your further clarification.

Continue with the noise. You seem to like hearing yourself speak.

Posted by: Marva at December 8, 2009

Marva...

Where did the lilt of your laughter go?

I thought that you were ignoring me...

Did you think that I wasn't grieving enough over the loss of your patronage that you had to return to remind me of my insignificance to you?

Alas and alack!.. Oh woe... Oh woe...

There...

Do you feel all better now?

.

David,

Wouldn't you say that there is more perversion, per capita, in the community of those who claim to be homosexual than in the community of heterosexuals?

Cuz, of course, since the heterosexual population is WWAAAAYYYY larger than the bunch who claim they are homosexual, the number of perverted acts in the heterosexual community will be larger simply by virtue of that fact a larger population.

So, we have-ta lookit per capita, and, if we look at per capita, the deviant group -- that is, the group of those claiming to be homosexual -- has-ta have more perversion, no?

I mean, we have-ta equalize the populations before we can use them, no?

David Hardy, thank you for re-re-re-posting all the true things I said about "Truthmeister's" misrepresentations about the law. Some things are a matter of opinion, but some things are just factually incorrect, and what Truthmeister was saying was indisputably factually incorrect. Thanks again for helping me make that point.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 8, 2009

cl...

Ohhhh,, The old left-handed compliment routine...

I'm impressed?

Who said anything about Truthmeister, besides you?

I am merely using your own words to illustrate your illustrious grasp of the finer points of logic, reasoning, stellar debating protocol and all around grasp of diplomacy...

.

I just wonder why those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists have not so much as tried to answer this:

So, where's the discrimination in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that everybody is either male/man, or female/woman?

Now, if you people are claiming that those who claim to be homosexual are members of a third sex, and that the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, excludes members of this third sex, you may have a point. However, there is no third sex. Everybody who is either male/man, or female/woman, is INCLUDED in the law.

So, again, where's the discrimination? Where is the inequality?

That lawyer oughta be jumpin' on that.

The fact remains, that once the door of deviancy is opened... There begins a mad rush of paraphiliacs attepting to tear it off of it's hinges...
Posted by: David Hardy at December 9, 2009


One seemingly little deviancy leads to another to another to another, and, pretty soon, you've deviated yourself into homosexuality.

Lookit the Spurgeon sermon, "Little Sins."

So, we have-ta lookit per capita, and, if we look at per capita, the deviant group -- that is, the group of those claiming to be homosexual -- has-ta have more perversion, no?

Posted by: Mr. Incredible at December 9, 2009

Yes...

Public health records demonstrate that homosexuals, representing 2 percent of America's population, suffer vastly disproportionate percentages of several of America's most serious STDs, with incidences among homosexuals of diseases like gonorrhea, syphilis, hepatitis A and B, cytomegalovirus, shigellosis, giardiasis, amoebic bowel disease and herpes far exceeding their presence in the general population.
These diseases are acquired directly through the sexual behavior homosexual activists are asking Americans to legally endorse and protect. Yet, as professor Jerome Lejeune of Descartes University, Paris, says of AIDS: "Only God can truly pardon the one who violates His laws; man pardons at times; Nature never pardons at all: She is not a person." The brutal consequences of attempting to break the natural law are not bigoted or hateful, nor are those, like Dr. Laura, Cal Thomas or Gary Morella, who try to point out the dangers and simple truths.

We are seeing the natural consequences of violating nature's laws now. They are also a warning to prevent the ultimate eternal consequences. How many will ignore that warning and continue to call the messenger a bigot and continue to shake their fist at God? How many will heed that warning of a loving Father, ready to forgive and reconcile His prodigal children?

http://www.marysremnant.org/Friends/DBK/BKHomAids.html

.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0248.htm

There it is, for your convenience.

Yeah, David, I knew for a long time that, when those who say they are homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists say that there is more perversion goin' on in the heterosexual community than there is in the community of those who claim to be homosexual, it didn't sound right. They are trying to make it sound as though it's something it's not.

It's like, when they say that there is more divorce in the heterosexual community than in the community of those who claim to be homosexual. Well, they don't tell you that there is more marriage in the heterosexual community than in the community of those who claim to be homosexual. They give you the gross numbers, not the per capita, and, as I say, per capita is key. The REAL understanding is in per capita.

Thanks for the info on that. It's critical stuff. You need to keep that handy.

==We are seeing the natural consequences of violating nature's laws now. They are also a warning to prevent the ultimate eternal consequences. How many will ignore that warning and continue to call the messenger a bigot and continue to shake their fist at God? How many will heed that warning of a loving Father, ready to forgive and reconcile His prodigal children? ==

That, of course, nails it.

The Father loves all. He loves even those who turn their backs on Him.

However, His love, like any good parent, does not preclude discipline and justice.

He told them. We told them what He says. They keep their backs to Him. They reject Him, but they ask, "Why doesn't He help us?"

He will help you when you turn back to Him. He can't help you if you reject His help.

Thanks for the info on that. It's critical stuff. You need to keep that handy.

Posted by: Mr. Incredible at December 9, 2009

Mr I...

You are very welcome...

I do keep it handy...

Along with a growing list of others...

It is important to know one's adversary...

Even though the details of that knowledge are sickening...

.

The details are repulsive to God and to us, but beautiful, no doubt, to those who claim to be homosexual.

Of course, they're gonna get mad now cuz you posted those details, cuz those details put on display, for all to see, what homosexuality is -- filth. Pure dirt. They want not for these things to be known cuz they're trying to paint a pretty picture of homosexuality; these kinds-a details make them look bad. Even THEY know it.

If they thought that picture is beautiful, they'd say, "Let's have more of it!" But they won't say that.

This homosexual agenda is a scam, and it's about time we make a major effort to let the world know, too; that homosexuality arises, not out the Godly nature, rather outta the sin nature with which we are born, thank you Adam and Eve.

That we are born with the sin nature makes us think, in our unrighteous selves, that it is natural, and this is where they come from. This is why, when born again and made Righteous by faith in Christ, we want not to do the things that spring from the sin nature. Yet, they continue to do this which is why we have to question those who claim that they can be Christian AND be homosexual, too.

"Marriage is one of the ‘basic civil rights of man,’ fundamental to our very existence and survival…." -- Loving

What is it about the marriage of a man and a man that is fundamental to our very existence and survival?

How will we be saved by the marriage of a woman to a woman?

What is it about so-called "same-sex 'marriage'" upon which our very existence and survival depend? What is that hinge? Is this to say that we cannot exist, nor survive, without so-called "same-sex 'marriage'"?

"To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State’s citizens of liberty without due process of law." -- Loving

The marriage of a Black man and a White woman still fits God's template for marriage -- that is, a man and a woman.

"The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. " -- Loving

There is no racial discrimination in a law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife.

"Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry..." -- Loving

Where is the particular Freedom "marriage" in the Constitution?

"... or not to marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State. " -- Loving

This case is about race, as it regards marriage.

Race is immutable. Homosexuality is mutable cuz it is through choice that a person goes homosexual.

If race and homosexality are treated the same, what is the physical characteristic of homosexuality that sets those who claim to be homosexual apart from the other, two sexes?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
How do religious right activists sleep at night anyway?
-----------------------------------
Very well, thanks.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
Judging from what I've studied about torturers, likely very well.
--------------------------------------
So, now you're comparing opposition to so-called "same-sex 'marriage'" to torturers?

When you gonna answer my questions? Wait! Lemme answer for you: Never, cuz you can't answer my questions. Your agenda won't let you.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
The Bible does not condemn "homosexuality."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Maybe YOUR "bible" doesn't. However, the Bible that represents the Word of God DOES condemn what we now call "homosexuality" as an "abomination." This is reiterated in Romans. The combination is further supported throughout the Word of God which says that God-approved, holy matrimony consists of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. We understand that you don't agree with God. He has made note of that for future reference.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
People do...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Those who align themselves with God and His Word agree with Them. It is THEY -- that is, God and His Word -- Who condemn. We merely report the condemnation.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
... those people are haters, greedy and bigots...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Why do you hate so much? What did your parents do to you? What made you a heterophobe?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
They are in the exact same position as racists were in 1960.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Not quite.

Race is an immutable characteristic. The choice of a homosexual, alternative-lifestyle orientation option is just that -- a choice.

If it is equal to race, then what is the physical characteristic that sets those who claim to be homosexual apart from the rest of us?

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
Their Bible clobber verses were exposed for what they were not.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Except that this time, given that race is immutable and the choice of the homosexual, alternative-lifestyle orientation option is mutable, reference to a line of scriptural thought, regarding homosexuality, is utterly appropriate. A Scripture upon Scripture reading is perfectly clear.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
Their science proofs were exposed for what they were. Their conspiracy theories were exposed as vicious slanders and/or paranoia. Their rationalizations were exposed as ill will, bogus, shallow, silly and self serving.
-----------------------------------------------------------
It's not the same this time, as much as you would like to have it be the same. You've become delusional.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
... as there were no excuses left for racists in 1960, there are no excuses left for the anti-homosexualists as 2010 arrives.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Except they are not the same.

Race is immutable. The choice of the homosexual, alternative-lifestyle orientation option is mutable.

Race is a physical characteristic. There is no physical characteristic of homosexuality.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
Yet, they keep on with their campaign of massive resistance, and they are unrepentant.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Given that we are aligned with the Word of God on this, there is nothing for us to be repentant.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009
... they are unrepentant.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Of what, according to the Word of God, should we be repentant?

God says what we now call "homosexuality" is an "abomination." We merely report what He says. So, your argument is with Him. Why don't you see whether you can get Him to repent?

Peterson, even Blacks are repulsed by your misappropriation of Civil Rights for the purposes of those who claim to be homosexual.

==Bible clobber verses ==

Regarding the issue of homosexuality, the verses I have brought up and made reference to surely do clobber you.

Strange that you present no line of scriptural thought. Well, maybe not strange, on second thought. Expected is more like it. You just don't have a line of scriptural thought about it.

So, Peterson, give us the line of scriptural thought that shows us that our line of scriptural thought is in error, regarding homosexuality.

Now, I'll go on a limb and predict that you have no line of scriptural thought about it, and that you're utterly incapable of coming up with one.

I have many lines of scriptural thought about the biblical condemnation of homosexuality, and they will make you look silly... or should I say sillier.

So, Peterson, your handlers at the Homosexual Internet Militia didn't prepare you for me, did they.

They didn't tell you how to handle the questions and issues I bring up, did they. Cuz you avoid my questions and issues like the plague. Of what are you so afraid?

==The Bible does not condemn "homosexuality." People do...==

God does.

So, Peterson, where's the discrimination in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that everybody is either male/man, or female/woman?

Now, if you people are claiming that those who claim to be homosexual are members of a third sex, and that the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, excludes members of this third sex, you may have a point. However, there is no third sex. Everybody who is either male/man, or female/woman, is INCLUDED in the law.

So, again, where's the discrimination? Where is the inequality?

Peterson, I'll give you a few hours to choke on all that.

I'll come back later to see whether you suddenly grew a couple so as to answer my questions.

@CL: "David Hardy and Dan could not manage to engage him on substance. They merely quoted scripture back at him. Pasting the same words over and over again is not reasoned discussion."
Substance? Rhetorical fog, you mean. You err b/c you do not know the scriptures. The word of God IS the answer - Ps. 19:7ff " The law of the LORD is [b](I)perfect, (J)restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is (K)sure, making (L)wise the simple.
8The precepts of the LORD are (M)right, (N)rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is (O)pure, (P)enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are (Q)true; they are (R)righteous altogether.
10They are more desirable than (S)gold, yes, than much fine gold;
(T)Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
11Moreover, by them (U)Your servant is warned;
In keeping them there is great (V)reward.
12Who can (W)discern his errors? (X)Acquit me of (Y)hidden faults.
13Also keep back Your servant (Z)from presumptuous sins;
Let them not (AA)rule over me;
Then I will be [c](AB)blameless,
And I shall be acquitted of (AC)great transgression.
14Let the words of my mouth and (AD)the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O LORD, (AE)my rock and my (AF)Redeemer."

.and anything they want to hear, they get to hear it...if not manufacture it.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009

Gregory...

You have captured and described the willfully ignorant stance of homosexuals in a most succint manner...

I have attempted to demonstrate, from a biblical perspective, just how disgusting the practice of homosexuality is...

I have also referenced and cited numerous other sources that explain, in great detail how homosexuals are disease ridden, mentally and relationally unstable, non-monogamous and violent, in numbers greater than their population footprint would otherwis indicate in relation to heterosexuals... The are also proud willfull prevaricators, when it comes to furthering their sick and twisted agenda..

You on the other hand, have done little besides, reposting variations on a core of about a dozen shopworn same old, same old identical arguments...

You rarely give anthing resembling a cited reference and you continually dismiss the Bible and any other non-homosexual affirming source..

You are a manufacturer extrodinaire..

Of tripe that will not sell on the open market...

And least of all here...

.

The Bible does not condemn "homosexuality." People do, and at this very, very late date, those people are haters, greedy and bigots, no excuses can be offered at this time.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 9, 2009

Gregory...

So we have already cycled back to this one have we?

I guess having to respond to several believers at the same time has your mind in a fog...

OK...

One more time....

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

.

@GP: "What is condemned in the Bible is not "homosexuality," but idolatry." It's not "either/or; IT'S BOTH/AND!"
I guess Moses, the prophets, Jesus, the apostles, the whole 1st-20th century church on every continent in every nation just didn't get the memo from... WHOM? YOU? The PROGRESSIVE/POSTMODERN SOOTHSAYERS AND CULTURAL PHARISEES? The Lord informed us that the dietary laws of the OT were no longer imposed upon those who trusted in Christ (WHO AFTER ALL FULFILLED THE LAW!!) as their Savior - Which law/s? >Jesus said in Matt. 15:10,11 "Hear and understand. "(H)It is not what enters into the mouth (NOTICE: HE DIDN'T INCLUDE THE MORAL LAW HERE) that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man. 18"But (M)the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. (THIS IS THE MORAL LAW - IT WASN'T ABROGATED, ABOLISHED, NULLIFIED, NEGATED, ANNULED, ABOLISHED, OR INVALIDATED AS AN EXPRESSION OF GOD'S CHARACTER)

19"(N)For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

20"These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man." Do you not see what Jesus was saying? He specifically overrules obedience to the dietary law as a means of righteousness.
>God reinforces this promise/fulfillment theme to Peter in Acts 8:1-23 esp. verse 15 "Again a voice came to him a second time, "(U)What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." NOTICE HE DID NOT INCLUDE HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN THAT VISION. JUST DIETARY STUFF.
>Paul also reiterates this theme in Rom. 10:4 "For (A)Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to (B)everyone who believes." But what exactly is he referring to? It IS the Jewish dietary/ceremonial/civil laws. NOT THE MORAL LAW OF GOD! In fact Paul constantly upholds the moral law of God (I Cor. 6:9 for starters! But in every epistle, too.), not as a means of justification but of the standard by which we are compared.
>James the leader of the Jerusalem church in ACTS 15 says "... we write to them that they abstain from (AN)things contaminated by idols and from (AO)fornication ..." IT'S BOTH/AND - "FROM IDOLATRY AND FORNICATION". At the very least you and your homosexual associates are committing immorality in direct disobedience to the word of God.
>SHOW US, GP, ONE SINGLE VERSE FROM THE BIBLE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR ERRONEOUS AND PERVERTED BELIEF THAT HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR AND SS MARRIAGE IS A GOOD THING! YOUR RHETORICAL FOG IS BOGUS!
I implore you, GP, repent of your immoral conduct, obey the gospel and believe on Christ.

I implore you, GP, repent of your immoral conduct, obey the gospel and believe on Christ.

Posted by: Dan at December 9, 2009

I'll second that...

.

@DH: Ah! Moved and seconded! I guess I felt inspired this a.m. b/c I have the day off due to crummy weather here in the midwest. So I drug out my soapbox and started to preach. And as every good evangelical knows, you gotta have an altar call at the end of the sermon. But it was sincere, too. And now for the offering.... ;-P

And now for the offering.... ;-P

Posted by: Dan at December 9, 2009

Does that mean that you are going to preach some more?

Preach... Offering... Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck...

.

To David Hardy & Mr. I

I have noticed several things here

1. One poster have already mentioned your incredible reading and comprehension skills or lack thereof and you continue to indicate this basic lack.

2. One other poster have informed you that you are just making noise and in every post thereafter you continue to prove the point of the poster.

3. I have pointed out to you that your argument/statements are illogical and what do you continue to do? Prove exactly that.

4. You need to stop and read and understand what is being said before you make a response. I would hate to think that you are doing this already. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt

Now back to my question for an example:

Your premise is that if homosexual marriages are allowed it would throw open the doors of perversions.

When asked to provide an example of this flood of perversion you provided 1 (one) example from Canada that deals with heterosexual relationships. Which if you took the time to dig into the case, you would have discovered that the issue was there before same sex marriage was legalized.

Common sense and logic would indicate that the issue then is that heterosexuals are perverse or just as perverse and therefore there should be restrictions placed upon heterosexuals.

Or perhaps it is your contention that allowing same sex marriages will make heterosexuals suddenly perverse. Interesting power these homosexuals would have don't you think?

And since homosexuals only account for 2% of the population, we should be more concerned with the perversions of the other 98% of the population. Just by mass alone that segment of the population perversions would be what would destroy a country. Don’t you think?

If there's a flood gate of perversion, can you provide a better example: at least one that shows a clear correlation. If there's a floodgate of perversion this should be easy to find. Just one case would do.

Thanks much

3. I have pointed out to you that your argument/statements are illogical and what do you continue to do? Prove exactly that.

4. You need to stop and read and understand what is being said before you make a response. I would hate to think that you are doing this already. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt

Posted by: Dionne at December 9, 2009

Dionne..

It would appear that while we are writing in English, we do not speak the same language...

Just in case you overlooke my response... here it is again for your convenience...

========================================================

Having hetrosexual marriages will result in hetrosexual pervision and here is one example of this. Let us therefore prohibit hetrosexual marriages.

Can you provide a more applicable example

Posted by: Dionne at December 8, 2009

Dionne...

Your logic has a hole in it..

Sexual perversion abounds... It is quite the hot topic in the Bible...

And all of it is irrevocably condemned...

The subject of your initial query was... And I quote...

"Should I then infer the following?

a) You think that we Americans are somehow made of
different stuff. That would make us do something
that no other people in other countries do.

b) You have proof that we are indeed more depraved than all other Europeans."

The answer to your query was adequately answered by the recent developments in Canada... A culture that is nearly identical to our own... Save for the occasional Eh? added for additional emphasis at the end of statements...

And Yes... They are bigger on Hockey... No... They don't live in igloos... And Yes... They can get Tim Horton's coffee without having to special order it...

But I digress...

The fact remains, that once the door of deviancy is opened... There begins a mad rush of paraphiliacs attepting to tear it off of it's hinges...

Posted by: David Hardy at December 9, 2009

========================================================

Along with not speaking the same language... It is apparent that we do not at all draw from the same well of logic...

Just in case that you need further proof that in relation to their relative population footprint, homosexual perversion results in the lion's share of consequences for sexual perversion...

Once again, for your convenience...

========================================================

Might does not create morality, however. It sometimes creates dead and damaged people.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 8, 2009

Gregory...

Coprophilia creates dead and damaged people...

In 2008, CDC estimated that approximately 56,300 people were newly infected with HIV in 20061 (the most recent year that data are available). Over half (53%) of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men. Black/African American men and women were also strongly affected and were estimated to have an incidence rate than was 7 times as high as the incidence rate among whites. Visit the HIV incidence page for more details.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm

.

Posted by: David Hardy at December 8, 2009

Thanks David Hardy for your response

I regret I am going to have to agree with the poster who said you were just making noise as there is nothing credible or sensible that I can use from what you have said.

Blessings to all

==1. One poster have already mentioned your incredible reading and comprehension skills or lack thereof and you continue to indicate this basic lack.==

By whose standard?

==2. One other poster have informed you that you are just making noise and in every post thereafter you continue to prove the point of the poster.==

You're free to move on.

==3. I have pointed out to you that your argument/statements are illogical and what do you continue to do? Prove exactly that.==

By whose standard?

==4. You need to stop and read and understand what is being said before you make a response.==

First, you don't tell me what MY needs are. So, tone yourself down.

Second, I DO stop, read and understand what is written.

== I would hate to think that you are doing this already. ==

Then, don't.

==So I will give you the benefit of the doubt==

So, first, you don't give me the benefit of doubt, and, then, after you try and fail to dress me down, you say that you'll give me the benefit of the doubt. Beautiful. Talk about lack of logic skill.

==Your premise is that if homosexual marriages are allowed it would throw open the doors of perversions. ==

It would happen.

==When asked to provide an example of this flood of perversion you provided 1 (one) example from Canada that deals with heterosexual relationships.==

Here, you say we were asked to give AN example. When David gives AN example, as you admit here, you get hysterical.

== Which if you took the time to dig into the case, you would have discovered that the issue was there before same sex marriage was legalized.==

David proved that perversion is prevelent among those who claim to be homosexual, more, per capita, than among heterosexuals. We're happy with his proof. You're not. So what?

==Common sense and logic...==

Whose?

==... would indicate that the issue then is that heterosexuals are perverse or just as perverse and therefore there should be restrictions placed upon heterosexuals.==

Not at all. The issue is not just perversion. It is a particular kinda perversion within an unnatural relationship. At least, with a man and a woman, it's a man and a woman, and, anyway, Paul [Corinthians] says that, if a man is frisky, he should get a wife to be frisky with. Men cannot be wives.

==Or perhaps it is your contention that allowing same sex marriages will make heterosexuals suddenly perverse.==

No one can "make" anybody anything without their permission.

== Interesting power these homosexuals would have don't you think?==

Answer above.

==And since homosexuals only account for 2% of the population, we should be more concerned with the perversions of the other 98% of the population.==

Prove that 98% of the population is perverse.

The fact is that you confuse the gross population and the per capita. Per capita is the key.

==Just by mass alone that segment of the population perversions would be what would destroy a country. Don’t you think?==

No, cuz, at least they are man and woman which, for that part, is natural and Godly. Now, whether a specific behavior is Godly is another matter.

==If there's a flood gate of perversion, can you provide a better example: at least one that shows a clear correlation.==

He already gave you one, and AN example is what was requested.

== If there's a floodgate of perversion this should be easy to find. Just one case would do.
==

It's already been done. No need to keep on doing it.

Dionne said: Thanks David Hardy for your response

I regret I am going to have to agree with the poster who said you were just making noise as there is nothing credible or sensible that I can use from what you have said.

Blessings to all

Posted by: Dionne at December 9, 2009

Dionne...

If what you just posted regarding me was a blessing...

I'll take a pass...

Keep your blessing...

Maybe you can exchange it for something you could use..

I hope that you kept the receipt...


.

I regret I am going to have to agree with the poster who said you were just making noise as there is nothing credible or sensible that I can use from what you have said.
Posted by: Dionne at December 9, 2009
-------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 2:14

I regret I am going to have to agree with the poster who said you were just making noise as there is nothing credible or sensible that I can use from what you have said.
Posted by: Dionne at December 9, 2009
-------------------------------------------
John 6:63

And, while I'm up, 1 Corinthians 2:14

David, they have an agenda [I'm not telling you anything you don't know], and, to them, agenda is everything. Homosexual Internet Militia HQ has told them to push, and push hard, accepting NOTHING we say.

Now, actually, that doesn't really matter cuz we know we're not gonna get through t' them. I, for one, therefore, post past them, for the benefit of those reading but not posting. I post also to help others on the Lord's side so that we all get on the same page.

Thanks for your help. You're doin' some heavy liftin'!

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
Perhaps David Hardy may not meet all of the qualifications of a 'Troll' but he certainly is a forum hog.
----------------------------------
In what way? Aren't there enough electrons for everybody and more?

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
He is no doubt very obsessed with the homosexual issue.
--------------------------------------
Why are you people so obsessed with heterosexuals? Quit being a heterophobe!

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
The best advice to all is to let him rant about the posts that he doesn't like.
--------------------------------------
You think that'll affect him, or me?? Heh.

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
(Many aren't worth responding to anyway)
---------------------------------------
Then don't.

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
Just ignore him.
-------------------------------------
What about me???

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
He is here because he wants the attention.
---------------------------------------
Really???? He doesn't wanna contribute to the discussion???? Contribute to the solution???? He just -- ONLY -- wants attention???? WOW! You just don't get it.

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
Don't give him what he wants.
--------------------------------------
That's right. Do what the Word of God says our posting of God's Word on the issue stop mouths.

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
Please ignore him.
---------------------------------------
You think that's gonna stop us?

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
And maybe just maybe he will go away.
----------------------------------------
Uhhh, I gotta news bulletin for you: It doesn't work that way. We're not handing this site over to those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates, nor their activists. So, you may as well settle down and get used to it.

Don't feed the Trolls.
Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009
--------------------------------------
Translation: "Don't encourage the opposition to homosexuality to post things that damage our agenda cuz we have no answers to those things and all we have left is distractions."

David and Dan,

Notice that they never even try to make a scriptural case.

If they thought that our presentations, based on lines of scriptural though, are incorrect, they would present lines of scriptural thought. But no. All they do is try to distract to try to cover up the fact that they have nothing.

@DH: "Does that mean that you are going to preach some more? Preach... Offering... Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck..."

A wise guy, huh! Why I oughtta...Woowoowoooo!
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JRC4HO437s

@Dionne: "Can you provide the data to show this increase in perversion in European societies."
You never answered mine: "And since you claim you go to church, do you accept in precept and principle the Scriptures as authoritative for your life?" You like to ask questions; you just don't like to answer them. Not playing nicely. Answer mine and I will answer yours.

Gays should be sent to some island and leave America as a Christian country. I'll gladly help them pack

I just responded to a post that was written last year in another thread on this site. I didn't realize that it was written so long ago.

However, I think it is relevant to this discussion, and my response may help:

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
... there are many Christians who support gay marriage for religious reasons.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Scripturally, what reasons?

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
I am a Christian pastor, and I support same-sex marriage because it is an issue of justice...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Whose justice?

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
... and while Jesus spent almost no time talking about sex...
-----------------------------------------------------------
He talked about divorce as it relates to marriage. He reminded the Pharisees that God joined a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. In other words, the only way you can have divorce is if you have marriage which consists of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife.

There is absolutely, utterly and completely no mention in the Word of God of so-called "same-sex 'marriage'" approved by God. "Marriage" is mentioned only in relation to the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. There is no other, holy, matrimonial unit.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
... he talked and acted to bring justice...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Whose justice and what kind?

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
... to the excluded wherever he went.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Excluded from what?

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
In his day, Jesus chose to spend his time and attention on whores, tax collectors, foreigners, the sick, disabled, and ritually unclean.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Cuz, as He said, the healthy have no need for a doctor. Why would He come to save those who are already saved?

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
He welcomed them into his circle...
-----------------------------------------------------------
However,(Eph 5:11) And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
... and demanded his followers include them.
-----------------------------------------------------------
For what purpose? To learn how to be a sinner? To find out what the sinners have to teach them? Not at all. So they could see Righteousness at work.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
Beyond any verse or verses of Scripture some well-meaning modern-day follower of Jesus might quote, emphasis should be given to acting as Jesus acted.
-----------------------------------------------------------
What was His main act? GIVING THEM THE WORD OF GOD, THE MESSAGE OF GOD'S OFFER OF RECONCILIATION. It was not to make sinners feel good. It was not to make them welcomed in His circle, there to remain sinners.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
Those passages of the Bible most often quoted to condemn homosexuality...
-----------------------------------------------------------
We don't do the condemning. We merely report what God says. A Scripture upon Scripture reading of those versus make it very clear that God condemns what we now call "homosexuality" as an "abomination."

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
... refer to very specific practices no one is engaging today--like pagan temple same-sex prostitution.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Not true. Leviticus is reiterated in Romans, and they, together, along with others, condemn homosexuality.

Again, throughout the Word, the only holy, matrimonial unit is a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. There is no other, matrimonial arrangement that is Godly.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
The Bible condemns violations of fidelity at every turn, and it is such violations that threaten the modern institution of marriage, not equal access to the legal and secular institution...
-----------------------------------------------------------
However, that institution grew out of what God joined -- WHAT, not who. God established the marriage template.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
... that conveys rights and privileges to those who make a legal marriage commitment with one another.
-----------------------------------------------------------
If that's all there is to it, those who claim to be homosexual can go to a lawyer and draft up a document that calls their relationship "marriage." After all, according to them, all that matters is love. That legal commitment would establish what they call "love."

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
Gay marriage is a civil rights issue...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Blacks say it is not. They say those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, activist and advocate are co-opting Civil Rights.

It is IS an issue of Civil Rights on par with Black Civil Rights, tell us what the physical characteristic of homosexuality is that separates those who claim to be homosexual from the rest of us.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
... and Christians should remember, along with all U.S. citizens, that our constitution makes clear that ALL people are created equal, without exception.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Constitution protects persons, not the types of persons persons choose to be, nor the way persons choose to act. Persons have Rights as persons, not, say, as German-Americans.

Those who claim to be homosexual already have equal Rights when it comes to marriage.

BEHOLD!

There is no discrimination in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that everybody is either male/a man, or female/a woman. There is no third sex excluded. You're not saying that those who claim to be homosexual are members of a third sex, are you?

So, since those who claim to be homosexual are either male, or female, they are covered by the law -- that is, a man who claims to be homosexual may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual. That is the same opportunity a man who is heterosexual as to marry a woman who is heterosexual. Equality in every point that's relevant.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
At the same time, Christians might want to remember that Jesus said ALL the law and the prophets could be summed up in two commands: love God and love neighbor.
-----------------------------------------------------------
God is love. The Word is God. Therefore, the Word is love.

Jesus came to bring the Message of God's offer of Reconciliation. For what? For Salvation. What motivated God? Love, for one thing.

So, biblical "love" is "unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, as much concern for others' Salvation as we have for our own." Those who are born again love others by giving them the Word -- that is, the very "thing" that will save them. Worldly love will not save anyone.

Posted by: yes2redpill at December 9, 2008
He did not say love your STRAIGHT neighbor--in fact, he went out of his way to demonstrate that our neighbor is the one we would want to exclude.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Exclude from what?

Just a heads up --

We already know that those who claim to be homosexual, their advocates, supporters and activists will ignore the questions and issues presented there -- cuz they have all a long -- and post some attempted distractions and obfuscations, further fogged by insults, pretending that they are furthering the discussion of the issue.

Gays should be sent to some island and leave America as a Christian country. I'll gladly help them pack

Posted by: Philip at December 9, 2009
-----------------------------------------------------------
They must like the punishment that they say we are giving them cuz they stay here.

It is IS an issue of Civil Rights -- -- > If it IS an issue of Civil Rights

David Hardy, uhhhh, you're not related to Oliver, are you?

Now, everybody knows that those who claim to be homosexual, their activists, supporters and advocates simply will not be able to keep quiet very long. After all, Homosexual Internet Militia HQ will not be happy that they are not pushing forth their agenda. HIM insists that agenda be advocated at any expense. HIM commands that, along with agenda, their followers are to flood threads with as many distractions, obfuscations, fogs and smokescreens as possible, as long as their followers avoid answering any of our questions cuz, after all, they don't have answers for the hard questions we have asked.

If everybody is either male, or female, where's the discrimination in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife? Those who claim to be homosexual, their advocates, supporters and activists say that those who claim to be homosexual are excluded. Where is the exclusion, if they also are either male, or female? Unless, of course, they are members of a third sex. NONE of them have come forward with what they say is their intelligence, logic, reason and Science to explain where the exclusion it. You'd think they would be eager. You'd think they have this all figured out by now. But no. It appears they are choking on this. They must be all choked up at Homosexual Internet Militia Headquarters, too.


They are afraid of you.


I know cuz it figures.

Darkness always retreats when the light/Light is shown: John 1:5


I wonder what Homosexual Internet Militia Headquarters thinks about their members here retreating from their mission, not going with the program.

As soon as one-a them people posts, I'll jump on it.

Phillip says:
Gays should be sent to some island and leave America as a Christian country. I'll gladly help them pack

Posted by: Philip at December 9, 2009

Phillip...

You cannot banish a citizen from their country...

If God banished all who have sinned from Heaven, who would be left besides Jesus?

We have both a right and an obligation as believers to follow this example in our separate and corporate fellowships...

1Corinthians 5:9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin.

1Corinthians 5:10 But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that.

1Corinthians 5:11 What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian [fn] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.

1Corinthians 5:12 It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways.

1Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."


.

This may be the first time in message board history that an invasion by those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists have been chased back, precluded from taking over a thread.

This oughta be a lesson for those whose boards are invaded by uppity people who have chosen the homosexual, alternative-lifestyle orientation option and who wanna foist it on everybody else; just band together and they will run away like scared, old women, as happened here.

http://thumbsnap.com/v/GPAlfNAu.jpg

David, I'm wondering whether you're a relative of Oliver Hardy?

God is love. The Word is God. Therefore, the Word is love.

God is a spirit. Jesus said, "[M]y words, they are spirit." He also said that His words are life.

Death and life are in the power of the tongue.

So, the spirits are in words. Words of blessing, or words of curses. God told you to choose life. Words of life.

Thus, the words of life and love are in the Word of God. They are not in the words of men. They are not in worldly words.

Jesus came to bring the Message of God's offer of Reconciliation. For what? For Salvation. What motivated God? Love, for one thing. The Word is love.

So, biblical "love" is "unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, as much concern for others' Salvation as we have for our own." Those who are born again love others by giving them the Word -- that is, the very "thing" that will save them. Worldly love will not save anyone.

DH, Mr. I, et al: This passage seems appropriate today regarding the homosexual activists posting here:

Zech. 7: 11"But they (N)refused to pay attention and (O)turned a stubborn shoulder and (P)stopped their ears from hearing.

12"They made their (Q)hearts like (R)flint so that they could not hear the law and the (S)words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the (T)former prophets; therefore great (U)wrath came from the LORD of hosts.

13"And just as (V)He called and they would not listen, so (W)they called and I would not listen," says the LORD of hosts;...

Perhaps at this point prayer is appropriate for those who thumb their progressive noses and shake their postmodern fists at God/God's word and His provision for their sins. Perhaps God will have mercy on them and change their hearts.

@GP: "You really should be deeply ashamed at what you've written and how you've written it, but you likely won't be. Why is that?"
---------------------------------------------
>Rom. 1:16 "16For I am not (AD)ashamed of the gospel, for (AE)it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the (AF)Jew first and also to (AG)the Greek."
The gospel and its defense is nothing to be ashamed of.
In fact: Mark 8:38 "For (A)whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, (B)the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He (C)comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
GP, are you ashamed of Him and His words? Sure seems like it.
Fact is GP, you can't provide any...ANY...NOT ONE SHRED OF SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR YOUR HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR OR SAME SEX MARRIAGE - and I know that really eats your lunch. And so you resort to shrill name calling blaming those who support God's word. But know this! We are praying for you. And I mean that sincerely.


@GP: Re: your post above: Haven't I told you a million times, "Don't exaggerate?"

David, I'm wondering whether you're a relative of Oliver Hardy?

Posted by: Mr. Incredible at December 10, 2009


Mr I...

I try not to rest too much on my Laurel's.....

.

Don't feed the Trolls. So they say in the world of the internet Perhaps David Hardy may not meet all of the qualifications of a 'Troll' but he certainly is a forum hog. He is no doubt very obsessed with the homosexual issue. I wonder why? We can only guess. The best advice to all is to let him rant about the posts that he doesn't like. (Many aren't worth responding to anyway) Just ignore him. He is here because he wants the attention. Don't give him what he wants. Please ignore him. And maybe just maybe he will go away.

Posted by: To Everone at December 9, 2009

I am the eldest Billy Boat Gruff to you and your kind....

.

@DH: "I try not to rest too much on my Laurel's....."

!NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

They don't own Gay people, of course, but conservative Evangelicals treat Gay people as they did slaves, back in my Great Grandfather's day. They insist that only they define them, that they be stripped them of their cultures, dictated to how and what they will worship, which is white and/or religious privilege.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Gregory...

Why don't you get your Nordic posterior off that dead horse and quit beating it so much...

You do know that the definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect different results, don't you?

Contemporary researchers have measured attitudes held by heterosexuals toward gay men and lesbians in a number of different ways. Commonly used scales include those designed by Herek,[16] Larson et al.,[17] Kite and Deaux[18] and Haddock et al.[19]

Certain populations are also found to accept homosexuality better than others. In the United States, African-Americans are generally less tolerant of homosexuality than white Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homosexuality

.

Thanks for your help. You're doin' some heavy liftin'!

Posted by: Mr. Incredible at December 9, 2009

Mr I...

Actually the Boss does all of the heavy lifting for me....

Matthew 11:28 Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle, and you will find rest for your souls.

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke fits perfectly, and the burden I give you is light."

You can thank him personally...

.

But know this! We are praying for you. And I mean that sincerely.

Posted by: Dan at December 10, 2009

I'll second that one too Dan...

.

Gregory said: "My troubled conscience has been washed away in the blood of the Lamb. I'm now free to judge and use other people unforgiven alleged sins to emotionally blackmail them into religious right conformity...for their own good...for the good of their innocent children, who might grow up with personal integrity."

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Gregory...

You believe in God as much as I believe in Santa Claus...

Ya know... When someone attempts to emotionally blackmail me, by forcing me to watch Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer ( You know... The one with Burl Ives as Frosty the Snowman)I don't obsess one bit about the possibility of getting a lump of coal in my stocking...

.

Gregory said: "Not to mention that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to "homosexuality." You just grab from low intellectual integrity, nakedly bigoted websites that confabulate the tawdry self justifications for your shameless slanders, scapegoating conspiracy theories, disgusting sexual fantasies and smarmy hate mongering.

You have no excuse, David, for your hateful abuse of God's living word. The Abolitionists have already exposed you for what you are. You didn't have to be a bitterly resentful hater. I know a great many Christians who aren't. You "chose to be one, right?"

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Gregory...

After basking in your love for a little while... I thought I would demonstrate to you just how much i have learned from you...

Above you will find the Gregory Peterson version of the Golden Rule...

I shall endeavor to follow it to the best of my ability when responding to you in the future....

I trust that you will be well pleased with my efforts...

I have soooo learned my lesson...

Thank you so much...

.

@GP: "You write like the men in the Good Samaritan parable, which passed by the robbed and beaten man, because they all could quote God's Law as to why they needed to keep pure for God."
Except:
1.you haven't been robbed or beaten
2.we haven't passed you by - we've stopped to help bind your wounds with the word of God - but you have rejected our help.
3.we aren't pure except for the blood of Christ which washed us and cleansed us.
You can have the same, too, GP.
Isaiah 65:2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts...
GP - the bible is the thoughts of God. Please, show me one verse where your homosexual lifestyle is approved, condoned, sanctioned, certified, approved, endorsed, or ratified.
Just one single verse.
End of debate.
The Word of God - a gazillion
Homosexual depravity - 0.



Didn't I tell you that they would be back?

... you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to "homosexuality."
We know what God knows about it. That's good enough for us. We understand it's not good enough for you. Not our problem.
Biblically demonstrate to me where it is even remotely possible for an unrepentant homosexual to be considered godly... -- Posted by: David Hardy at December 10, 2009

A key point. Critical.

My troubled conscience has been washed away in the blood of the Lamb. I'm now free to judge and use other people unforgiven alleged sins to emotionally blackmail them into religious right conformity...for their own good...for the good of their innocent children, who might grow up with personal integrity. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Matthew 15:8

Godly works will flow from love for the Lord. That you support what God detests is an indication of love that is not for the Lord.

Christian Lawyer,
Since I didn't see a response to my last post in the Maine SSM thread, just wanted to briefly restate my last comment as I'm eager to read your response.

First, on your comment that basing legal theory on religion is "dangerous," I agree is once sense and disagree in another. I agree in that a legal framework should respect everyone's rights, including religious freedom. I disagree in that either religion is the basis of law, or law is the basis of religion.

God is the creator of all things, including the ethics on which law is based; in that sense, religion is based on law. Now some say this is not so, that law is independent of God, which means there is a kind of right or wrong over which God has no say. That, I – along with Dr. King and the Founders – reject. You brought up proof; but no ethic can be proven, only supported by evidence, reason and faith.

Second, what is the basis of your view of human law, as eternal and gradually discovered by humans as the laws of nature? In what sense is human law proven or at least revealed? All that to ask, if not from God, where does the basis human ethics and law come from?

You write like the men in the Good Samaritan parable, which passed by the robbed and beaten man, because they all could quote God's Law as to why they needed to keep pure for God. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Irrelevant comparison.

You also use the exact same arguments against "homosexual activists" that pro-slavery apologists used against abolitionists and "Black" Republicans. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Irrelevant comparison. Last century, the majority against Civil Rights legislation was comprised of... yeah... DEMOCRATS. Robert Byrd was KKK.

Not to mention that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to "homosexuality." -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

God knows enough for us.

You just grab from low intellectual integrity... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Translation: "You would have high intellectual integrity if you agreed with me."

... nakedly bigoted websites... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Translation: "If you would take the crap that I get from the websites I like, you would agree with me, and I wouldn't call you names."

... that confabulate... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Translation: "Lookit me, everybody! I gotta thesaurus!"

... the tawdry self justifications... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Prove that we are justifying ourselves. Point out what you allege to be the "self-justifications."

... for your shameless slanders... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Point out what you allege to be the "slanders."

... scapegoating... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Point out what you allege to be our "scapegoating."

... conspiracy theories... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Like what?

... disgusting sexual fantasies... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

What do scoffers know about disgusting things? Plenty.

However, the fact is that those who are born again do not objectify others sexually.

... and smarmy hate mongering. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Boy, you sure are tearin' through that thesaurus.

You have no excuse, David, for your hateful abuse of God's living word. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

By whose definition/standard is he abusing the Word of God hatefully?

the Abolitionists have already exposed you for what you are. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

According to whose standard?

You didn't have to be a bitterly resentful hater. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

And, so, he isn't.

I know a great many Christians who aren't. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

And, so far, you know that he and I aren't.

You "chose to be one, right? -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Those who claim to be homosexual chose a homosexual, alternative-lifestyle orientation option, didn't they?

The Golden Rule says that a couple who love each other... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Romans 1:18 [KJV].

... should be congratulated and encouraged, not condemned and torn apart. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

They have condemned themselves, according to the Word.

As "they" say: "The Devil quotes scripture." I would say instead: "the Devil quotes clobber verses." -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

The Devil does NOT quote Scripture. If he could, he would be quoting the Truth. He cannot quote the Truth. You know that feeling. Just lookit the way you mangled "the Golden Rule" to match your warped support for those who claim to be homosexual.

Read the Bible... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009 o'clock two

Done and done.

... take it seriously... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Done and done.

... try to find humor in it as well... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

Not the purpose of reading the Word of God.

... but do not worship it. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

The physical Book is the manifestation in the world of the spiritual Thing. We don't worship the physical Book, rather What the Book represents.

Only worship God. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 10, 2009

The Word is God. God is a spirit. Jesus said, "[M]y words, they are spirit." God is an His Word/words. Death and life are in the power -- that is, words -- of the tongue.

Bill said, "Hey boys and girls...

It's warming up over here...


http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2009/12/rick_warren_oth.html

As usual, too little, too late, 'Christians.'

You will have the blood of innocent people's lives on your hands.

The tarnish on your 'What Would Jesus Do?' lapel pins is visible from outer space.

This proposed legislation is DIRECTLY linked to elected officials in the United States as well as many well-known 'religious' leaders.

Their efforts in Uganda directly led to this porposed legislation.

Jesus Christ is weeping. And as usual, his followers are silent until it is too late."

Posted by: Bill at December 10, 2009

========================================================

Bill...

Please explain how Christians are responsible for this...

Please quote, reference and cite the sources of your allegations...

Lest your credibilty becomes that of a willful prevaricator...

Thank you in advance...

Posted by: David Hardy at December 10, 2009


.
.

Peterson,

The word, "homosexual," accurately describes the alternative-lifestyle orientation option one has chosen to act out.

The word, "homosexuality," accurately describes the chosen conduct.

The word, "gay," as misappropriated by those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, advocates and activists, is intended to be an element of public relations. It is the used car salesman's trick. It is mere spin.

Peterson,

Since you have taken it upon yourself to be the spokesman for the community of those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, activists and advocates, why haven't you answered my questions? Namely, cuz YOU'RE the one who claims there is discrimination in the law,

Where's the discrimination in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that those who claim to be homosexual are either male, or female, that there is no third sex, that, therefore, everybody is covered by that law.

Your handlers at the Homosexual Internet Militia didn't prepare you for that one, eh.

Gregory Peterson answered you WAY up this thread, but here's back up to what he already said. The racists tried pretty much the same argument in support of the ban on interracial marriage. -- Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 11, 2009

So, Peterson accuses us of using what he calls "clobber" verses, but he continually and continuously uses "clobber" history in the same way he accuses us of using "clobber" verses. Yeah, we get it.

Just cuz the racists used similar arguments does not make the case for so-called "same-sex 'marriage'"similar to interracial marriage.

The fact is clear:

Race is an immutable, physical characteristic. There is no immutable, physical characteristic of homosexuality; those who claim to be homosexual cannot point to a physical characteristic that sets them apart from everyone else.

A man and a woman of mixed, or same, race fits the template of God for marriage. So-called "same-sex 'marriage'" does not.

... marriage is a fundamental civil right... -- Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 11, 2009

Fundamental Rights appear in the Constitution.

Where does the Constitution mention "marriage"? We'd all like to see it.

...the question is NOT whether gays have the "right" to redefine marriage. -- Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 11, 2009

They may define it any way they want. It's just that we don't have-ta go along with it.

Rather, the question is whether the STATE has a right to limit marriage to only those it deems appropriate. -- Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 11, 2009

Nobody is listening them to anything that they aren't willing to the rest of us. Everyone is treated the same.

So, show us where the exclusion is in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that everyone, including those who claim they are homosexual, is either a man/male, or a woman/female.

DH: "Please explain how Christians are responsible for this...Please quote, reference and cite the sources of your allegations...Lest your credibilty becomes that of a willful prevaricator..."

-- Here you go. [He posts links] That Christians both here and in Uganda are pushing for this legislation has been widely reported. BTW, willful blindness is one of the foulest types of prevarication. --Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 11, 2009

And, yet, hypocritically, you ignore the fact that those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters, activists and advocates cross state lines to push their agenda in states that are not their own.

Peterson accuses us of using what he calls "clobber" verses to prove our point.

Okay, Peterson, find verses in the Word of God -- and use the King James Version so that, if you can find them, you can use that version against us -- referring to "marriage," and tell us where God, in referring to "marriage," refers to "marriage" in any other way but the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife.

Here's YOUR opportunity to find verses that will "clobber" our verses, and, this time, you won't be able to point your finger at us for using what you call "clobber" verses.

The clock is running.

@GP: "You write like the men in the Good Samaritan parable, which passed by the robbed and beaten man, because they all could quote God's Law as to why they needed to keep pure for God." Except: 1.you haven't been robbed or beaten 2.we haven't passed you by - we've stopped to help bind your wounds with the word of God - but you have rejected our help. 3.we aren't pure except for the blood of Christ which washed us and cleansed us. You can have the same, too, GP. Isaiah 65:2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts... GP - the bible is the thoughts of God. Please, show me one verse where your homosexual lifestyle is approved, condoned, sanctioned, certified, approved, endorsed, or ratified. Just one single verse. End of debate. The Word of God - a gazillion Homosexual depravity - 0. -- Posted by: Dan at December 10, 2009

EXCELLENT! Excellent!

@Mr. I. Thanks for your encouragement.

@DH: "@DH: "Does that mean that you are going to preach some more? Preach... Offering... Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck..."

A wise guy, huh! Why I oughtta...Woowoowoooo!
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JRC4HO437s

Posted by: DH at December 9, 2009"

(I just noticed - I posted as you. At 57 yr.s old a fella just loses his mind. Some day you may find me wandering aimlessly down a street. Please call my wife to come and get me.)

Posted by: Christian Lawyer: willful blindness is one of the foulest types of prevarication.

www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1946648,00.html

www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/decemberweb-only/150-22.0.html

www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/10/28/ugandas_do_ask_do_tell

www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1946645,00.html?iid=sphere-inline-sidebar

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 11, 2009

Thanks everso for opening my eyes...

You link...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1946648,00.html

Took me to this...

On the agenda was the country's controversial antihomosexuality bill, which, as currently proposed, would impose the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality" — that is, an HIV-positive man caught having sex with another man.

Read more:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1946648,00.html#ixzz0ZOmJskWW


If that is the crux of the law... They are prosecuting pre-meditated murderers, not garden variety homosexuals...

Your link...

www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/decemberweb-only/150-22.0.html

Went nowhere...

Please try again...

Your link...

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/10/28/ugandas_do_ask_do_tell

Took me here..

Ugandans can't stop talking about the very thing many argue should be taboo: homosexuality. On Oct. 14, Ugandan Parliamentarian David Bahati introduced the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009, an effort, he says, to protect Ugandan families from what he terms the "creeping evil" of homosexuality. It's not the first attempt by an African country to outlaw homosexuality, but it may well be the most extreme. Included in the draft text are not only condemnations of same-sex relations, but a new crime that carries the death penalty, and a criminal sentence for having sex while HIV positive. Human rights advocates say it's illegal, not to mention an outrage. Gay activists say they will live in fear even more than they do now. But the vast majority of Ugandans, sadly, may agree with the law; a 2007 poll found that 95 percent of those surveyed strongly opposed legalizing same-sex relations, period.

Your link...

www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1946645,00.html?iid=sphere-inline-sidebar

Went nowhere...

Please try again...

It looks to me like Uganda is beginning to pursue the prosecution of pre-meditated murders...

I would advise HIV infected homosexuals in Uganda to remain celibate...

.

Mr. Hardy, did you miss the part where African Americans are the most religious of any group?

So there would tend to be a direct correlation don't you think?

-------------------------------------------------
David Hardy said"

"Certain populations are also found to accept homosexuality better than others. In the United States, African-Americans are generally less tolerant of homosexuality than white Americans."

Posted by: Christian Lawyer:

-- Here you go. That Christians both here and in Uganda are pushing for this legislation has been widely reported. BTW, willful blindness is one of the foulest types of prevarication.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 11, 2009

Your first link went here...

The various strands of Uganda's anti-gay movement — social conservatism, religious fervor and elements of America's culture wars — came together at a meeting at the country's largest university last month. On the agenda was the country's controversial antihomosexuality bill, which, as currently proposed, would impose the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality" — that is, an HIV-positive man caught having sex with another man.


Your second link went nowhere..

Please try again..

Your third link took me here...

Ugandans can't stop talking about the very thing many argue should be taboo: homosexuality. On Oct. 14, Ugandan Parliamentarian David Bahati introduced the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009, an effort, he says, to protect Ugandan families from what he terms the "creeping evil" of homosexuality. It's not the first attempt by an African country to outlaw homosexuality, but it may well be the most extreme. Included in the draft text are not only condemnations of same-sex relations, but a new crime that carries the death penalty, and a criminal sentence for having sex while HIV positive. Human rights advocates say it's illegal, not to mention an outrage. Gay activists say they will live in fear even more than they do now. But the vast majority of Ugandans, sadly, may agree with the law; a 2007 poll found that 95 percent of those surveyed strongly opposed legalizing same-sex relations, period.

Your fourth link went nowhere...

Please try again..

From what I was able to gather from the 50% of your links that actually worked, it would appear that if one is HIV positive in Uganda, they should remain celebate...

Or risk the consequences of premeditated murder...

.


Posted by: Christian Lawyer:And, as Justin pointed out at the top of this thread, this case held that marriage is a fundamental civil right, and just as important, the question is NOT whether gays have the "right" to redefine marriage. Rather, the question is whether the STATE has a right to limit marriage to only those it deems appropriate.

Posted by: Christian Lawyer at December 11, 2009

Uhhhh...

Perhaps in Florida they do not require passing the bar exam to practice law..

However, that is not the case in most states...

Likewise with marriage licences..

If you don't pass the requirement to receive one...

You don't get one...

Marriage is not an inalienable right in this country..

.

Posted by: Markus: @ Christian Lawyer

Why do you continue to discourse with people who are willfully ignorant?

Posted by: Markus at December 11, 2009

It would not at all surprise me to learn that "Christian Lawyer" talks to herself...

.

@Markus: To CL: "Why do you continue to discourse with people who are willfully ignorant?" This begs the question: why are you reading it? After all this is a conservative evangelical site? If you don't want to read it, go to another site?

@CL: I looked up some of the Progressive Christian sites. I even skimmed over an article by Linda Seger. I will read it in more depth later when I have time. But the line of reasoning/questioning in her article reminded me of the encounter between Satan and Eve in the Garden of Eden: Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say..." Also, I found an article by Delwin Brown of Pacific School of Religion. I mention that b/c someone posted a while back that the evangelicals were not involved at all in the abolition movement. Dr. Brown says the exact opposite. They were on the cutting edge, in fact. I don't think you are the one that posted, perhaps it was GP, and it really doesn't matter.

Christian Lawyer,

So good to hear from you again! I agree with pretty much everything you said. Your visual analogy cleared things up. I do have a point we might disagree on, but first what we agree on:

God is, indeed, inseparable from ethics. I relate to the sun and rays analogy, especially the through a glass darkly bit. (I'd phrase it by saying His character is such that He always does what is Holy/Just/True/Right etc.) Humility in legal theory goes a long way, and our understanding does improve in some ways (and get worse in others). Certainly, what matters functionally is the common legal ground. After all, I believe politics is a Compromise of Wills between people of different beliefs for the common good. My issue with the religious right is that they largely don't get this. And I may be Presbyterian, but I do love John Wesley and his Quadrilateral.

Yet, given all that agreement, I still have a potential disagreement, more on Christian ethics than legal theory per se. I find your view a progressive interpretation of the Great Commandment - all that adjustment due to truth "revealed to us by God, apparently over time". And that can be a problem.

If God reveals Himself in Christ and in Scripture clearly, as you believe He did with "love God (with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind) and love your neighbor as yourself", that's the basis of Christian ethics, the meaning of which is fleshed out by Christ, Paul, John, et al. in the New Testament. So who am I to correct them?

Now sure, we use the Quadrilateral to guide us (especially in a different cultural setting), but ultimately the guidance must come not from God Himself by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. And God speaks most clearly through Scripture (my Reformed side awakes). We must use Reason, Tradition and Experience to read Scripture well, but ultimately a good reading is by the grace of God, because we so easily misread it to reinforce our prejudices rather than challenge them. And since God's teaching is always good, the idea of "adjusting" any Scriptural teaching is troublesome, because more often then not it means fitting in with our prejudices, conservative or liberal, modernist or traditionalist. The religious left is just as much an absurdity as the religious right; both fail to capture the full breadth of God's holiness (and on that we certainly agree).

In short, Scripture is always prophetic, and the more we think we've perfected (or are perfecting) society to usher in Christ's kingdom, the closer we are to the error of the Pharisees. Yes, we fight for justice, but not because we bring true justice - that is between God and human hearts - but because we are being faithful to God's call for our lives.

All that to say, your view is not necessarily guilty of this criticism, but it's something we need to be reminded of; I know I do. Without it, a progressively "better" legal understanding can become a kind of arrogance, taking part of God's revelation and running with it to the loss of another critical part of God's witness. The Great Commandment is great; but like each of the four points on the Quadrilateral, it does not stand alone.

Good morning all,

If any of you read the Bible the same things that are going on today have been going on forever. God chooses who he is going to take to heaven and who he is going to send to hell. The Bible is very clear that if you are not drawn to God the Father then you are a child of satan bound in his chains and doing his will. satans will is all about how you can feed yourself(flesh), your wants and the pride of life. Do any of you see a pattern in all these posts. The cross is foolish to those who are parishing. The only way anyone is forgiven is through the blood of Christ .if God the Father calls you to Christ then you can see that you are a sinner and then you must repent. To repent is to stop doing the sin that you are doing and start walking the new life that is in Christ. If God the Father has not chosen you to follow Christ you will die in your sins and go to hell. The sin of homosexuality and any other sin that God calls sin. If you are caught in it and need healing a great web site is www.Exodusinternational.com. My prayer for all of us is that we would see a need for a Savior, Jesus Christ, Repent and turn away from our sin, and read what Jesus Christ laid out for our lives in His Holy Bible that he gave us as our instruction manual for living.

When a person feels that they want to have sexual activity with someone of the same sex they have an evil spirit. Those feelings are not their own. If all "gay" people would come to the spiritually corrrect understanding of what was happening to them then they would just cast out the spirit of lust and homosexuality. They would then after some resisting of the feelings come to the real feelings that Jesus Christ gave them from the foundation of the earth: heterosexual feelings. No one is a homosexual, they are heterosexual with feelings given to them by the spirit world. We don't live in a world of just tangile things. There is a spirit world all around us trying to kill, steal and destroy from us. THey want to break apart families and make people ill. Anyone who has feelings that they are gay needs to ask Jesus into their lives, repent for their sin and then cast out the spirit that is tormenting them.

@homosexual/gay activists/progressive christians:
Lexical Information on I Cor. 6:9

I Cor. 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived ; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Robertson’s Word Pictures

The unrighteous (adikoi). To remind them of the verb adikew just used. The Kingdom of God (qeou basileian). Precisely, God's kingdom. Be not deceived (mh planasqe). Present passive imperative with negative mh. Do not be led astray by plausible talk to cover up sin as mere animal behaviourism. Paul has two lists in verses Colossians 9 10 , one with repetition of oute, neither (fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, or malakoi, abusers of themselves with men or arsenokoitai or sodomites as in 1 Timothy 1:10 a late word for this horrid vice, thieves, covetous), the other with ou not (drunkards, revilers, extortioners). All these will fall short of the kingdom of God. This was plain talk to a city like Corinth. It is needed today. It is a solemn roll call of the damned even if some of their names are on the church roll in Corinth whether officers or ordinary members.

Wesley’s Explanatory Notes

I Cor. 6:9
6:9 Idolatry is here placed between fornication and adultery, because they generally accompanied it. Nor the effeminate - Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good - natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell.

@same as above: lexical info on Lev. 18:22

Leviticus 18:22 - ' You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female ; it is an abomination.
hb[wt hva ybkvm bkvt al rkz -taw ? awh

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 7901
Original Word Word Origin
bkX a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Shakab TWOT - 2381
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shaw-kab'
Verb

Definition
1. to lie down
a. (Qal)
1. to lie, lie down, lie on
2. to lodge
3. to lie (of sexual relations)
4. to lie down (in death)
5. to rest, relax (fig)
b. (Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)
c. (Pual) to be lain with (sexually)
d. (Hiphil) to make to lie down
e. (Hophal) to be laid

NAS Word Usage - Total: 208
actually lies 1, has 1, laid 6, laid low 1, lain 3, lain down 2, lay 22, lay down 15, lie 26, lie down 31, lie still 1, lies 25, lies down 10, lodged 1, lying 7, lying down 4, make your bed 1, recline 1, rest 4, rested* 1, sleep 4, sleeps 1, slept 37, take...rest 1, taking 1, tip 1

NAS Verse Count
Genesis
18
Exodus
3
Leviticus
15
Numbers
4
Deuteronomy
14
Joshua
2
Judges
2
Ruth
5
1 Samuel
9
2 Samuel
18
1 Kings
20
2 Kings
19
2 Chronicles
12
Job
11
Psalms
6
Proverbs
6
Ecclesiastes
2
Isaiah
6
Jeremiah
1
Lamentations
1
Ezekiel
12
Hosea
1
Amos
1
Jonah
1
Micah
1
________________________________________ ________________________________________
Total 190

The Hebrew lexicon is Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon; this is keyed to the "Theological Word Book of the Old Testament." These files are considered public domain.
________________________________________
Bibliography Information
Brown, Driver, Briggs and Gesenius. "Hebrew Lexicon entry for Shakab". "The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon". .

Connect the dots.

@ Markus,

I agree that actions like these do not show Christians in the best light. And I will not use the argument that they are just men etc.

We are all responsible for our actions and the damage that we do to the name of Christ.

The thing is, many people from time immemorial have created their concept of God. We, American Christians are no different in this regard. Hence why you must at all times consider it a personal relationship between you and God: and it is up to you to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I’ve just noted that Rick Warren, the pastor who did the blessings at President’s Obama’s inauguration has now distanced himself from this legislation. There’s however no comment made from “The Family” or any of the senators who have been associated with this piece of legislation.

One of the scary parts of the proposed Ugandan bill is that it would impose a 3-year jail term on anyone who knows of someone homosexual that fails to report that person to the government.

So you have the prospect of parents turning in children, brothers and sisters turning each other in, etc.

But you know what, evil is evil. It will find any convenient cover that it can find. If religion makes a good cover, evil will use it. If conservatism or liberalism is convenient, either will be used.

If Uganda wants to kill homosexuals, the act of legalized murder is the issue, not some dubious claims to Christianity.

One wonders though if this is prophetic or shades of past human history.

Posted by: Justin:If Uganda wants to kill homosexuals, the act of legalized murder is the issue, not some dubious claims to Christianity.

One wonders though if this is prophetic or shades of past human history.


Posted by: Justin at December 12, 2009

Judging by the approval of more than 45,000,000 innocent children murdered since Roe v. Wade and the blatant support of the godless practice of homosexuality by the post-modern progressive "Christians" in this country...

I would say that it's just business as usual, by post-modern progressives in Uganda...


.

Michael Swift: Author

Gay Community News, Feb. 15-21, 1987

This essay is an outré, madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor.

We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.

Women, you cry for freedom. You say you are no longer satisfied with men; they make you unhappy. We, connoisseurs of the masculine face, the masculine physique, shall take your men from you then. We will amuse them; we will instruct them; we will embrace them when they weep. Women, you say you wish to live with each other instead of with men. Then go and be with each other. We shall give your men pleasures they have never known because we are foremost men too, and only one man knows how to truly please another man; only one man can understand the depth and feeling, the mind and body of another man.

All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men.

All homosexuals must stand together as brothers; we must be united artistically, philosophically, socially, politically and financially. We will triumph only when we present a common face to the vicious heterosexual enemy.

If you dare to cry faggot, fairy, queer, at us, we will stab you in your cowardly hearts and defile your dead, puny bodies.

We shall write poems of the love between men; we shall stage plays in which man openly caresses man; we shall make films about the love between heroic men which will replace the cheap, superficial, sentimental, insipid, juvenile, heterosexual infatuations presently dominating your cinema screens. We shall sculpt statues of beautiful young men, of bold athletes which will be placed in your parks, your squares, your plazas. The museums of the world will be filled only with paintings of graceful, naked lads.

Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable and de rigueur, and we will succeed because we are adept at setting styles. We will eliminate heterosexual liaisons through usage of the devices of wit and ridicule, devices which we are skilled in employing.

We will unmask the powerful homosexuals who masquerade as heterosexuals. You will be shocked and frightened when you find that your presidents and their sons, your industrialists, your senators, your mayors, your generals, your athletes, your film stars, your television personalities, your civic leaders, your priests are not the safe, familiar, bourgeois, heterosexual figures you assumed them to be. We are everywhere; we have infiltrated your ranks. Be careful when you speak of homosexuals because we are always among you; we may be sitting across the desk from you; we may be sleeping in the same bed with you.

There will be no compromises. We are not middle-class weaklings. Highly intelligent, we are the natural aristocrats of the human race, and steely-minded aristocrats never settle for less. Those who oppose us will be exiled.

We shall raise vast private armies, as Mishima did, to defeat you. We shall conquer the world because warriors inspired by and banded together by homosexual love and honor are invincible as were the ancient Greek soldiers.

The family unit-spawning ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy and violence--will be abolished. The family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will, must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.

All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of beauty, moral and esthetic. All that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too much is not enough.

The exquisite society to emerge will be governed by an elite comprised of gay poets. One of the major requirements for a position of power in the new society of homoeroticism will be indulgence in the Greek passion. Any man contaminated with heterosexual lust will be automatically barred from a position of influence. All males who insist on remaining stupidly heterosexual will be tried in homosexual courts of justice and will become invisible men.

We shall rewrite history, history filled and debased with your heterosexual lies and distortions. We shall portray the homosexuality of the great leaders and thinkers who have shaped the world. We will demonstrate that homosexuality and intelligence and imagination are inextricably linked, and that homosexuality is a requirement for true nobility, true beauty in a man.

We shall be victorious because we are fueled with the ferocious bitterness of the oppressed who have been forced to play seemingly bit parts in your dumb, heterosexual shows throughout the ages. We too are capable of firing guns and manning the barricades of the ultimate revolution.

Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks.


.


Dear David Hardy

As your fellow sister in Christ, I would like to ask you to let it rest for a while now. Right now you are doing more harm than good.

You are letting gay people and their sin consume you to the point of losing all objectivity.

The only thing you are supposed to let consume you to this extent is your relationship with Christ.

I will keep you in my prayers.

Posted by: Marva: Dear David Hardy

As your fellow sister in Christ, I would like to ask you to let it rest for a while now. Right now you are doing more harm than good.

Posted by: Marva at December 13, 2009

Marva...

Are you God's messenger by saying "Right now you are doing more harm than good."?

Here is my answer to you about giving it a rest...

2Samuel 11:11 Uriah replied, "The Ark and the armies of Israel and Judah are living in tents, and Joab and his officers are camping in the open fields. How could I go home to wine and dine and sleep with my wife? I swear that I will never be guilty of acting like that."

.

@DH: Fight the good fight, brother.This is one of the few places I've found where progressive Christian/ss marriage/homosexual perversion is exposed and opposed. And you are at the forefront. I've looked at some of the progressive Christian sites on the internet. They are all "sweetness and light" until you begin to examine their core beliefs/values and the scholarship/research they use to support their beliefs/agenda. Pretty disturbing stuff. For a lot of new Christians not grounded in the word, progressive Christian stuff will look good. But for those who take God's word in precept and principle as their authority, PC beliefs are disturbing, contrary to the gospel, distorted and perverted. (Gal. 1:6-10) And they are easily debunked by the word. But it's the same old line Satan deceived Eve with in Gen. 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said..." What P.C.'s have done is to take evangelical terminology, invest it with liberal/postmod/neo-orthodox sentiments and serve it in a "latte" liberal church setting. Sounds sooooo nice. And we know "it's nice to be nice to the nice." (Frank Burns, M.D., MASH) So when you point out that the word of God is opposed to homosexual behavior (Leviticus 18, Rom. 1, I Cor. 6, I Tim.; and therefore ss marriage) they look hurt and ask plaintively "Has God really said that? Oh but don't you realize that those prohibitions were only for those engaged in idolatry. Please, be tolerant." But then when you do oppose them, they show their true colors and spew their vitriol. They are not teachable. But you already know that. Fight the good fight. I'm praying for you.
(I love these CAPTCHA phrases! This one is "more yuckiest" I've gotta believe God is speaking to me through these things. Do you think if I write them down I can compile a document of "new" revelation from God? I'll call it the CAPTCHA Bible - but then again - Nawwww. It's just the voices in my head talking again. (Note to self: "Take your meds; ignore the voices in your head.) {;-P)

Posted by: Dan: @DH: Fight the good fight. I'm praying for you.

Posted by: Dan at December 13, 2009

Dan...

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement and for your prayers as well...

Please also pray for all who poste here from either side of the battle-lines and for all who just stop by to peruse...

Here is my attitude towards the post-modern progressive abortion and homosexual affirming theology...

1Samuel 17:34 But David persisted. "I have been taking care of my father's sheep," he said. "When a lion or a bear comes to steal a lamb from the flock,

1Samuel 17:35 I go after it with a club and take the lamb from its mouth. If the animal turns on me, I catch it by the jaw and club it to death.

1Samuel 17:36 I have done this to both lions and bears, and I'll do it to this pagan Philistine, too, for he has defied the armies of the living God!

1Samuel 17:37 The LORD who saved me from the claws of the lion and the bear will save me from this Philistine!"

Commoror Fidelis!

.

Did I miss something? Did "God" make an appearance on the news or something coming out against gay anything? And if so, which "God" was it, because there seems to be a lot of disagreement on how many there are, and by what name they go under.

I don't recall "god" issuing a statement to AP or anything, either. Oh, there is some greater than 2000 year old book written by people and selectively cobbled together to achieve a political goal, but still, has anyone seen this "God" person recently, in the flesh, right t here, in front of the cameras and everything? No? Not at all?

Well, then I suspect people should probably stop speaking on his behalf then.

Posted by: James: Well, then I suspect people should probably stop speaking on his behalf then.

Posted by: James at December 13, 2009

James...

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned to Peter and said, "Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, and not from God's."

.

To David Hardy

So you knew it was a satire and still attempt to pass it off as fact. That is known as lying and you conveniently don't know the penalty for lying, but feel free to check some of those passages you love to quote. I'll give you a hint - you are going to need air conditioning :-)

But if a man refuses to be instructed...

Matt 7:26-27 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand….”

Jesus having said the above, I continue on.

Pro 15:5 “A fool despiseth his father's instruction: “

Pro 27:22 Though you should pound a fool in a bowl with a bar in the midst of wheat, his foolishness will not depart from him.

Pro 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

Pro 24:7 Wisdom is too high for a fool; he does not open his mouth in the gate.

Pro 15:2 The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, but the mouth of fools pours out foolishness.

Pro 15:14 The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, but the mouth of fools feeds on foolishness.

Ecc 5:3 For a dream comes through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice by the multitude of words.

Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who listens to advice is wise.

Pro 26:11 As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool returns to his folly.

Ecc 2:14 The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walks in darkness

Pro 15:14 The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, but the mouth of fools feeds on foolishness.

Pro 16:22 Understanding is a fountain of life to him who has it, but the instruction of fools is folly.

Pro 18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding, but only that his heart may lay itself bare.

Pro 20:3 It is an honor for a man to cease from strife, but every fool exposes himself.

As I read through this thread, I can't help but notice a reoccuring theme for the more religious folks. Over and over again, references are being made "why are gay people shoving this in our face", "why do they get so upset when they don't get their way" etc.

Do you understand that we want the same opportunities that you have? We aren't trying to convert you. I could care less who you choose to love, to be with, to share your success and failures with. I want the LEGAL privileges that compose a CIVIL marriage. I want my pension to go to my partner. I want to be able to visit my parter in the hospital, and make decisions for him should he be unable. I want to know that I won't be kicked out of my home because I am gay. I want to know that my gay brothers and sisters can serve this country in the military without living in shame.

At the root I feel like the more fundamental religious folks don't understand HOW I am. I was always gay. I was not made gay. I was never molested. I had a great childhood and have always been close to my mother and my father. I no more want to be with a woman than you straight men want to be with a man. I ONLY have romantic and sexual attractions for men. I am a gay man, and I am proud of how god made me.

Do you realize how many of us there are? We are not just some mistake. There are more gays than there are Jews in the U.S. What you have to understand is that you will either be on the right side or the wrong side of history. It is inevitable. The gay rights movement is a boulder rolling down a hill, and you might slow it down, but you will not stop it. That is not a threat...it is a reality.

I don't fault you guys for your beliefs. I truly thing you just don't get it. But seriously...the idea of using Leviticus as a reasoning against my people...absolutely absurd. Those codes were there as a way of separating the Jews from all others. To solidify them as a people. But in the same page as the anti-gay remarks(which were really talking about the tradition of Greeks have boys for sex, gross) it also states that you shouldn't wear poly-fiber clothing. That you shouldn't eat shellfish. That women can't enter the church if they are menstruating. Everything has a context, and to pull a single sentence out of the bible to meet your ends is disrespectful to the history and past of all Christians.

This is not just about SSM. This IS about Equality...and I WILL have it in my lifetime. I hope you all learn the compassion that you so often speak of, and take the time to know gay people.

oh, and one last comment. To Sarah who mentioned the 4 mommy lesbian couple who had a daughter. You said the little girl had it so rough...she had to make four mother's day cards, and couldn't celebrate father's day. She has four women who love her and raise her. There are millions of children who have no father in their life. Your point is absurd...and it is offensive. Your argument against homosexuality is akin to those who state homosexuality is wrong--and the higher suicide rate of gay children is the proof. That is absurd thinking. You have no idea how hard it is to be gay. Most gay friends I have did not start to love themselves until they were away from home, and could finally be themselves. You know you are different when you are very young...and it's so hard. Other people generally know something is different with you too, and children can be mean when they recycle the same garbage their bible thumping parents spout of to them at the dinner table about the "sin" of homosexuality. Whew.

Posted by: Christopher: This is not just about SSM. This IS about Equality...and I WILL have it in my lifetime. I hope you all learn the compassion that you so often speak of, and take the time to know gay people.

Posted by: Christopher at December 14, 2009

Christopher...

Homosexuals already have and enjot the exact same rights as all citizens of the USA..

As has already been mentioned... There are only two gender distinctions among human beings... Male and female... Homosexuals do not comprise a third gender, they merely draw from the same gender pool to fill their ranks as heterosexuals do...

In order to extend this "equality" that you cry out for, society would have to extend special citizen status to homosexuals exclusively...

That is In violation of the US Constitution...

Article IV

Section 2. The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

And it flies in the face of this...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.-- Declaration of Independence (Preamble)

My suggestion to you is that you get over your sense of special privilege entitlement and learn to be an American citizen…

Oh and get to know a few heterosexuals while you're at it…

.

Posted by: Christopher: Other people generally know something is different with you too, and children can be mean when they recycle the same garbage their bible thumping parents spout of to them at the dinner table about the "sin" of homosexuality. Whew.

Posted by: Christopher at December 14, 2009

Christopher...

And of course homosexuals are never ever mean and nasty to heterosexuals...

Especially when they parade around screaming "We're here! We're Queer! Get used to it!"

Much like you have done in your own way with lines like this...

Do you realize how many of us there are? We are not just some mistake. There are more gays than there are Jews in the U.S. What you have to understand is that you will either be on the right side or the wrong side of history. It is inevitable. The gay rights movement is a boulder rolling down a hill, and you might slow it down, but you will not stop it. That is not a threat...it is a reality.

Well guess what?

You may be the boulder...

But by the Grace of God...

I'm the rock crusher...

.

To David Hardy:

You stated "Homosexuals already have and enjot the exact same rights as all citizens of the USA."

This just goes to show how little you know. Not all states have protections from housing discrimination, workforce discrimination, DADT, and of course sam sex marriage. You are wrong.

In regards to Article IV, Section 2 of the constitution...Please explain how this has ANY relevance to your argument? No special citizen status in needed, all we need is for gender to be neutral. And before you preach to me about your incorrect interpretation of this article, let me also point out that the constitution also allowed blacks to be slaves, denied women the right to vote...should I go on? It is an imperfect document that was created to mold and change as our society grows up, and advances with and beyond culture.

As far as your use of the opening line of the Declaration of Independence, I do believe I ALSO have been endowed with certain inalienable rights, as well as life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. For me the pursuit of happiness is the same as my straight counterparts. I will be married, I will have a family...but I will instill my family with the same positive and moral values that my parents instilled in me, and they will be loved.

I do realize the bitterness than began to seem through towards the end of my last post, and that I do regret. I am not a bitter person, but as this "war" rages on between gays and those who consider us vile, immoral people, it hurts, and it causes heart ache. All I want is to live my life with the same privileges and protections as you yourself are entitled.

I don't care who you are with and I certainly don't understand how you can focus so much of YOUR life on who I want to be with.

And might I also add, that is seems ironic that you use the bible to support your view points, WHILE using the US Constitution to support your views as well. Separation of Church and state I believe is the bedrock of the constitution. Think about that...it just makes your argument seem silly. And no I am not calling YOU silly...just your argument. While I disagree, I do look forward to the future, when you are on the wrong side of history...

To David Hardy:

You stated "And of course homosexuals are never ever mean and nasty to heterosexuals...Especially when they parade around screaming "We're here! We're Queer! Get used to it!""

So what are gay people supposed to do? Granted I will be the first to admit I have not been pleased with all of the tactics imposed by the gay community, but people are angry, and they want change. Just like during the civil rights movement, there will be individual groups who want to be in your face(like the black panthers). I hope in never comes to groups with that type of methodology forming.

And don't you dare trivialize the parades, lol. I personally feel the day of pride parades has come to an end...we don't need them like we once did. The parades began as a show of solidarity...from a time when you could be arrested, beaten, and spat upon by police offices for being gay.

We are the way we are, and I am overjoyed that I live in a time when more and more gay people are coming out, and being proud. There aren't anymore of us than there was 50 years ago...there are just more who don't live in secret.

I mean, wouldn't you rather gays being with each other and not marrying your daughter and living an unhappy lie?

Oh, and you may like to think of yourself as a rock crusher....but there are 10,000,000 rocks in this country, and you will soon find that we will not be silenced, and we will certainly not be crushed by the likes of you.

Posted by: Christopher: As far as your use of the opening line of the Declaration of Independence, I do believe I ALSO have been endowed with certain inalienable rights, as well as life liberty and the pursuit of happiness….

All I want is to live my life with the same privileges and protections as you yourself are entitled.

I don't care who you are with and I certainly don't understand how you can focus so much of YOUR life on who I want to be with.

And might I also add, that is seems ironic that you use the bible to support your view points, WHILE using the US Constitution to support your views as well. Separation of Church and state I believe is the bedrock of the constitution. Think about that...it just makes your argument seem silly. And no I am not calling YOU silly...just your argument. While I disagree, I do look forward to the future, when you are on the wrong side of history...

Posted by: Christopher at December 14, 2009

Christopher…

There are no guarantees that anyone will pursue happiness to a happy outcome of that pursuit… that is why it is stated “pursuit of“, rather than simply happiness…

If you are a full citizen of the United States of America… You already live your “with the same privileges and protections ” as I do mine…

I beg to differ… You care very much who I am with… Because who I am with, has stated that the practice of homosexuality is an abomination…

Show me in the constitution where it is written “Separation of Church and state.”

I can tell you right now that you will not find it because it is an impossibility…

The Constitution guarantees the civil rights of every citizen...

The Constitution does not guarantee license to engage in all manner of consensual free-will choice activities...

While the USA is a Constitutional Republic and not a Theocracy, it is impossible to separate church and state...

Every adult has both a god and a religion and every law is enacted to honor both a god and a form of religion...

god

3 : a person or thing of supreme value

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/GOD

religion

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

It is not me that you need to worry about… For it will not be me who you will give an accounting of your life to.

Romans 14:11 For the Scriptures say, " `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.' "

Romans 14:12 Yes, each of us will have to give a personal account to God.

.

Posted by: Christopher Roberson Oh, and you may like to think of yourself as a rock crusher....but there are 10,000,000 rocks in this country, and you will soon find that we will not be silenced, and we will certainly not be crushed by the likes of you.

Posted by: Christopher Roberson at December 14, 2009

Christopher...

I carry the name of a man who did not cut and run in the face of Goliath of Gath…

1Samuel 17:32 "Don't worry about a thing," David told Saul. "I'll go fight this Philistine!"

1Samuel 17:33 "Don't be ridiculous!" Saul replied. "There is no way you can go against this Philistine. You are only a boy, and he has been in the army since he was a boy!"

1Samuel 17:34 But David persisted. "I have been taking care of my father's sheep," he said. "When a lion or a bear comes to steal a lamb from the flock,

1Samuel 17:35 I go after it with a club and take the lamb from its mouth. If the animal turns on me, I catch it by the jaw and club it to death.

1Samuel 17:36 I have done this to both lions and bears, and I'll do it to this pagan Philistine, too, for he has defied the armies of the living God!

1Samuel 17:37 The LORD who saved me from the claws of the lion and the bear will save me from this Philistine!"

To me your 10,000,000 rocks are nothing more than grains of sand, in the eyes of the Lord…

And with God's help I will apply some heat and turn you all into a lump of glass…

.

To David Hardy:

It's difficult to take you seriously when you don't ACTUALLY address any of the points made by myself or other posters. It truly does a disservice to Christians, and only weakens your claims and so called values.

I leave you with this message, I hope you take it to heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuDJmVkPYpw&feature=player_embedded

Posted by: Evan: Christopher

Save your breath. David Hardy you will find is an idiot and a liar and he works for this CT blog. You will soon note that your posts will start being delteted.

Posted by: Evan at December 15, 2009

Evan...

If I work for CT....

How's come payroll hasn't sent me a check?

.

Posted by: Christopher: To David Hardy:

It's difficult to take you seriously when you don't ACTUALLY address any of the points made by myself or other posters. It truly does a disservice to Christians, and only weakens your claims and so called values.

Posted by: Christopher at December 15, 2009

Interpretation

Christopher refuses to pay any attention to the Bible and the fact that it condemns the practice of homosexuality across the board...

Christopher is so deluded and blinded by Satan that he actually believes that unless one is giving their full blessing the practice of hoimosexuality that they are intolerant, hateful and not showing love...

Because truth and values are completely a relative concept to the post-modern "christian" philosophy, anyone who disagree that the practice of homosexuality is straight out of the bowels of Hell, has no real values...

Christopher...

Here is your response...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

.

Evan, have you ever thought that the reason your posts keep getting deleted may be because they just aren't good.

Posted by: Evan: It's time for the religious right political activists to at least pretend to follow the 10 Commandments. One of them has something to say about lying and another has something to say about stealing.

Posted by: Evan at December 15, 2009

Evan...

Well I had better get busy exposing the lies that homosexuals have been telling the public and enlightening the American people regarding the real truth about the theft of America's moral compass by the Militant homosexual agenda...

Thank you so much for the push...


.

Here you go America...

From "After the Ball - How America will conquer its fear and hatred of Gays in the 90s." - Penguin Books, 1989 pp. 147-157.

by Marshall K. Kirk and Hunter Madsen

"PUSHING THE RIGHT BUTTONS: HALTING, DERAILING, OR REVERSING THE 'ENGINE OF PREJUDICE' "

In the past, gays have tinkered ineptly with the engine of prejudice. Is it possible to tinker more favorably? We present (in order of increasing vigor and desirability) three general approaches [which are vastly better than what we've tried in the past].

These approaches, once understood, will lead us directly to the principles upon which a viable campaign can be erected.

I. DESENSITIZATION

We can extract the following principle for our campaign to desensitize straights to gays and gayness, inundate them in a continuous flood of gay-related advertising, presented in the least offensive fashion possible. If straights can't shut off the shower, they may at least eventually get used to being wet.

2. JAMMING

The trick is to get the bigot into the position of feeling a conflicting twinge of shame, along with his reward, whenever his homohatred surfaces, so that his reward will be diluted or spoiled. This can be accomplished in a variety of ways, all making use of repeated exposure to pictorial images or verbal statements that are incompatible with his self-image as a well-liked person, one who fits in with the rest of the crowd. Thus, propagandistic advertisement can depict homophobic and homohating bigots as crude loudmouths and a**holes--people who say not only 'fa**ot' but 'ni**er,' 'k**e,' and other shameful epithets--who are 'not Christian.' It can show them being criticized, hated, shunned. It can depict gays experiencing horrific suffering as the direct result of homohatred-suffering of which even most bigots would be ashamed to be the cause. It can, in short, link homohating bigotry with all sorts of attributes the bigot would be ashamed to possess, and with social consequences he would find unpleasant and scary. The attack, therefore, is on self-image and on the pleasure in hating.

Note that the bigot need not actually be made to believe that he is such a heinous creature, that others will now despise him, and that he has been the immoral agent of suffering. It would be impossible to make him believe any such thing. Rather, our effect is achieved without reference to facts, logic, or proof.

3.CONVERSION

It isn't enough that antigay bigots should become confused about us, or even indifferent to us--we are safest, in the long run, if we can actually make them like us. Conversion aims at just this.

We mean conversion of the average American's emotions, mind, and will, through a planned psychological attack, in the form of propaganda fed to the nation via the media.

Conversion makes use of Associative Conditioning, much as Jamming does--indeed, in practice the two processes overlap-- but far more ambitiously. In Conversion, the bigot, who holds a very negative stereotypic picture, is repeatedly exposed to literal picture/label pairs, in magazines, and on billboards and TV, of gay- explicitly labeled as such!--who not only don't look like his picture of a homosexual, but are carefully selected to look either like the bigot and his friends, or like any one of his other stereotypes of all-right guys-- the kind of people he already likes and ` admires. This image must, of necessity, be carefully tailored to be free of absolutely every element of the widely held stereotypes of how 'faggots' look, dress, and sound. He--or she--must not be too well or fashionably dressed; must not be too handsome--that is, mustn't look like a model--or well groomed. The image must be that of an icon of normality--a good beginning would be to take a long look at Coors beer and Three Musketeers candy commercials. Subsequent ads can branch out from that solid basis to include really adorable, athletic teenagers, kindly grandmothers, avuncular policemen, ad infinitem.

But it makes no difference that the ads are lies; not to us,

http://www.article8.org/docs/gay_strategies/after_the_ball.htm

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Posted by: Evan: Do I have to lie and be hypocritical?

Well sorry can't do that. It seems you christians have cornered the market on that already.

Posted by: Evan at December 15, 2009

Evan...

Yes, you did lie... Not only have you lied, you have libeled yourself...

Each time you posted this...

Posted by: Evan: But when THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT (PEOPLE LIKE DAVID HARDY AND MODERATORS OF CHRISTIANITY TODAY) cites this text, they ALWAYS OMIT the vital first line, which sets the context for the piece. In other words, every other version of this found on the net and in the literature of religious right political activists is part of the radical right's great lie about gay people.

"This essay is an outré, madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor."

Posted by: Evan at December 15, 2009

Posted by: David Hardy at December 13, 2009

Michael Swift: Author

Gay Community News, Feb. 15-21, 1987

This essay is an outré, madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor.

Posted by: David Hardy at December 13, 2009

.

Posted by: Evan: Anyhow I'm done with this site. I am going to check out those two other sites that another poster mentioned to me.

Posted by: Evan at December 15, 2009

Evan...

That's the second time that you have made overtures about leaving...

You don't need to keep announcing something that you have no intentions of actually doing...

Unless of course you are waiting for a brass band to show up and provide you with an escort...

In that case... I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you...

.

Friendly Reminder:

Please attack the issues not the person. Comments that include name calling or slurs will be removed.

Thanks for your cooperation.

BJ
Christianity Today Community

The title of this thread is New York State Senate Defeats Same-Sex Marriage Bill. I find it strange that a majority of NY politicians would vote down ss marriage. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with equal rights or fairness or tolerance; maybe it has everything to do with preserving the best of our culture. Homosexuality is a perversion and should not be given legal status. A doctor that I know (and he isn't very conservative) once remarked that the human anatomy wasn't designed biologically to be used like homosexuals use it. So why would anyone want to legitamize a sexual perversion condemned not only by the bible, but also by medical professionals? I understand you can't prohibit homosexual behavior between consenting adults, but you can protect the culture by prohibiting its legal status. If you in the GLBT community want to cohabit, well then do what a lot of heteros. do - just live together and quit whining. Note the following references:
http://www.conservapedia.com/David_and_Jonathan
http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_biblical_interpretation
http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Christianity
http://www.robgagnon.net/

Can the religious right discuss GLBT people without slurring and name calling? Such as calling Gay people "homosexuals," "perverts," "unnatural," "intrinsically disordered" and on and on?

As to "homosexual," using an obsolete science term and long faded away social construct to label a people that has its own names, such as "Gay," is slurring and name calling.

Gay people are not science specimens. Gay people are a community. "Gay" is the personal identity label, not "homosexual." Gay people are not the Christian man's burden. Gay is not a sin, or a perversion. "Gay" is an indicator of personal integrity...that the Gay person understands whom they are. Gay people are your neighbors, coworkers, relatives, perhaps your child.

As for MSM...'men who have sex with men,' but don't necessarily have a same-sex community, communal identity such as Gay or "bisexual"...they are whom they are. That is human, to be treated with respect and dignity. Don't have sex with them, or anyone else, if you don't want to. That is respect for your own personal integrity and human dignity.

The religious right, in general speaks of Gay people as not good enough to be peers of conservative Christians. Gay people are whiners if they demand full citizen equality, if they want to care for their loved ones like anyone else. There adulthood is disrespected in that they can't consent to be legally married and still retain their personal integrity.

Do you really want your daughter to marry a Gay man? Or your Gay son, for that matter, to marry a woman who would be your daughter in law? Don't you care for your daughter, or daughter in law to want them to be loved fully, for being a woman as well as themselves, instead of being a social convention that is also loved, but not really as the woman they are?

Gay people need Gay people like other-sex people need the other sex...we feel a pull to find the soul of our soul, "alma de mi alma," as the old Mexican love song goes...and old telenovela...

The human body wasn't "designed." If the body was designed, women would have painless childbirths, people would have fewer bad backs and knee problems. Us artists would enjoy the same color vision as birds, instead of more limited color vision of us primates.

The human body evolved. God does not need to "design," which is an anthropomorphism. I need to design. I am, in fact, an "intelligent designer" by former trade and current hobby. I'm not God, God is as God is. Saying that we're "designed" is sort of telling God what we want God to do...design us, instead of being the Creator. God is, and so we exist...quite obviously not designed.

Variation is the stuff upon which evolution works...and our flexibility as a species is why we have colonized every continent, even Antarctica has a few permanent bases...and there is that space station up there.

Not to mention that Gay people can't do what other people also can't do...and can do what other people can do...and also do, for that matter.

A same-sex orientation isn't a perversion. It's not a fetish, it's not a kink, it's not predatory (though Gay people, like straight people, can, or course be kinky and/or predatory. A same-sex sexual orientation is a natural variation on the theme of human sexuality.

While people do "identity" and other animals don't seem to, other animals also do same-sex sexual activity...and our close cousins, the Bonobos, appear to do same-sex sexual activity rather than dominance displays and violence. (But, I'm hardly an expert on them.)

Interestingly, domesticated and captive animals seem to do same-sex sexual activity more than their non-domesticated, non-captive relatives (though it's hardly unknown in "nature."

Lack of environmental stimulations and dangers that keep them busy trying to stay alive, might lead to boredom and a need for some sort of stimulation that can be done, lack of access to mates, the time and need for some social/sexual variations to strengthen or weaken to to meet the environmental challenges of domestication or captivity, fewer mating opportunities, sexual 'triggers' altered by breeding for domestication or captivity...just guesses on my part, if that is a firm scientific observation. I seldom even see animals, wild or domesticated any more, except sometimes on my lunch time walks.

Our species, of course, invented domestication...and most of us are pretty domesticated.

As an entomologist pointed out, "if it's not forbidden, it's mandatory." Nature doesn't make same-sex sexual activity impossible, so it is done. Nature doesn't make human identity, community, love, respect, sexual orientation, friendship impossible, so humans do it. The key is to be a human with good sense. Gay people can have that, and straight people can have that, and in both groups, there are people...sorely lacking in good sense. (which is not the same as common sense.)

Sexual perversion today, at least in my society, are generally about excesses - excess fetishism to the point of being hazardous, excessive depersonalization...people become sex objects - or a disconnect with people and sex altogether, excessive sexual activity that leaves little time for the other things that make life worth living - things which deepen our lives and our capacity to love.

Debauchery and dissipation to use more old fashioned words. Certainly, there are Gay/MSM people who meet my definition of "perversion." But, would that only Gay people could be "perverts." People with strong same-sex orientations are just a fraction of the world's population, however...and a fraction of a fraction of the world's "perverts."

There is a definition of "perversion" that isn't sexual....distortion, twisting, corruption, misuse, misrepresentation, misinterpretation, falsification - a monstrous perversion of justice. (The Free Dictionary website.) The religious right, and people in general, and me...might keep that in mind, before making "perverse" and self serving generalities about "the other." But, I'm not calling the religious right sexual perverts...though there are some in that community, as in every community I've ever heard of. And, a long time aog, I studied the sociology of deviancy. Gotta go.

@GP: (Concision is the lesson objective for today.) If you want to live like the bonobos or other animals, by all means, go ahead. Sows will often eat their young. Just b/c pigs kill their young doesn't mean....wait, that's not a good analogy, b/c people kill their young too - abortion. Hmmm. Guess, you're right, GP, we're no better than dumb animals. So let's eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Let's adopt the rule of fang and claw while we're at it - since you brought up the animal analogy. Wolves prey on the young, weak, and infirm deer. So maybe we humans should adopt that as our standard operating procedure. Those who are the weakest in our society, we will hunt down an kill. Not really! We're not animals - we're human beings created in the image of God (pigs and bonobos are not!). We are created for fellowship with God (pigs and bonobos are not). And God is not gay. In fact if you notice Lev. 18:22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." it is THE ACT ITSELF - not just the context (which actually recedes into the background) - but it is THE ACT ITSELF that is prohibited. It's not either/or; it's both/and. Your attempts to anchor gay/homosexual/ss marriage/glbt/what have you in a biblical context is unpersuasive.

Gregory-
CT defines personal attack as "Making of an abusive remark instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments."

Again, we ask that those who comment on CT.com attack or discuss the "issue" raised by the blog or article and refrain from attacking the person who posts. Use of the word homosexuality is not an attack. However, Calling you (Gregory) an idiot or homophobe or queer in a derogatory fashion does constitute personal attack and such posts will be removed.

I pray this helps clarify the standard.

-BJ
Community, Christianitytoday.com

"Homosexual" is a pejorative word in that it's "excessively clinical, as the wiki on "Gay" states correctly.

"Homosexual" was once erroneously used as a diagnosis label for a mental illness. Calling Gay people "homosexuals" is like calling an average person a "depressive." Gay people are not scientific specimens. Some Gay people will be mentally ill, as a percentage of any large group will be, but "homosexuality" is not their health challenge.

I've heard some Gay people use "homosexual" much like I've heard Black people use the word "Negro."

"Homosexual" usage as a mental illness diagnosis label, and that the RSV picked up the word in 1946 or thereabouts...are the main reasons, I think, why religious right activists use the word almost exclusively.

One organization even used (uses?) software that changes "Gay" to homosexual automatically, thereby changing the athlete Tyson Gay's name to "Tyson Homosexual." The Washington Post's Mary Ann Akers says it was the American Family Association.

The religious right uses "homosexual" in a pejorative way, I think...using it to try to label all Gay people as mentally deficient, and blaming a dreadful conspiracy for forcing psychologists to drop the diagnosis of "homosexuality" from it's manuals. That conspiracy theory suggests that those who claim that...want Gay people to be sick, simply because they're Gay people. That's a pejorative use of the word.

The RSV erroneously used the word in the late Forties, gave it "respectability" for use in Bible translations. What other once "official" disease diagnosis labels are in Twentieth Century Bible translations and paraphrases?

The word is essentially a short lived Twentieth Century medical label and abandoned social construct.

As the Gay Rights bandwagon got rolling, more and more Bible translations picked up "homosexual" from the RSV, either from intellectual laziness, or perhaps even to deliberately encourage Bible readers to hate the "sin" of "homosexuality."

Never mind that the context of idolatry around the "homosexual" clobber verses make a blanket condemnation of Gay people highly suspect.

Never mind that the "sin of homosexuality" came into being mostly in the last few decades of the last century, as new Bible translations and paraphrases jumped onto, or cluelessly and carelessly joined in, the anti-Gay counter parade.

"Hate the sin of homosexuality, but love the homosexual sinner." What smiling-faced, crocodile teared, condescendingly hateful abuse of the word "love." That's not love, that's just hate with a superior smirk.

Never mind that I don't think Jesus wanted us to hate. Don't hate sin, just don't do it.

Never mind that psychologists, following the research of sociologists, corrected their "self selection" bias error, and dropped the label from their diagnostic manuals. As "homosexual" is no longer a disease diagnosis label, and hasn't been one for decades, I think that there are few moral reasons left to use the word as the religious right often uses the word.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson As for MSM...'men who have sex with men,' but don't necessarily have a same-sex community, communal identity such as Gay or "bisexual"...they are whom they are. That is human, to be treated with respect and dignity. Don't have sex with them,

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 16, 2009

Gregory…

Let me give you a big AMEN! on that statement of yours…

Public health records demonstrate that homosexuals, representing 2 percent of America's population, suffer vastly disproportionate percentages of several of America's most serious STDs, with incidences among homosexuals of diseases like gonorrhea, syphilis, hepatitis A and B, cytomegalovirus, shigellosis, giardiasis, amoebic bowel disease and herpes far exceeding their presence in the general population. These are due to common homosexual practices that include fellatio, anilingus, digital stimulation of the rectum and ingestion of urine and feces.

An exhaustive study in The New England Journal of Medicine, medical literature's only study reporting on homosexuals who kept sexual "diaries," indicated the average homosexual ingests the fecal material of 23 different men each year. The same study indicated the number of annual sexual partners averaged nearly 100. Homosexuals averaged, per year, fellating 106 different men and swallowing 50 of their seminal ejaculations, and 72 penile penetrations of the anus. (Corey, L, and Holmes, K.K., "Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men," New England Journal of Medicine, 1980, vol 302: 435-438; as quoted in "Homosexuality and Civil Rights," Tony Marco, 1992).

A study by McKusick, et al., of 655 San Francisco homosexuals reported that only 24 percent of the sample claimed to have been "monogamous" during the past year, and of this 24 percent, 5 percent drank urine, 7 percent engag-ed in sex involving insertion of a fist in their rectums, 33 percent ingested feces, 53 percent swallowed semen and 59 percent received semen in their rectums in the month just previous to the survey ("AIDS and Sexual Behavior Reported by Homosexual Men in San Francisco," American Journal of Public Health, December 1985, 75: 493-496; quoted in "Homosexuality and Civil Rights," Tony Marco, 1992).

To the present time, 75 to 85 percent of AIDS cases reported are related to homosexual activity, promiscuous heterosexual sex and IV drug abuse. AIDS stubbornly refuses to spread into the population in general, even 20 years after its discovery, despite dire warnings to the contrary.

Source

Posted by: Gregory Peterson Never mind that the context of idolatry around the "homosexual" clobber verses make a blanket condemnation of Gay people highly suspect.

Never mind that the "sin of homosexuality" came into being mostly in the last few decades of the last century, as new Bible translations and paraphrases jumped onto, or cluelessly and carelessly joined in, the anti-Gay counter parade.

Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009

Gregory…

Allow me to facilitate you in your Bible study efforts and assist the reader in being able to do their own comparative reading and research of the Biblical text…

They can start with these…

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Timothy 1:9 But they were not made for people who do what is right. They are for people who are disobedient and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who murder their father or mother or other people.


1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

.

As soon as the homosexual/gay/glbt brigades win their battle for legitimization, just brace yourselves for what comes next - lawsuit upon endless lawsuit. Orwell said it most prophetically:
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." Coming to a mainstreet near you: gay parades flaunting their perversions in brilliant detail - just like in San Fransisco. Oooooo! I can hardly wait. ;-[

"Homosexual" is a pejorative word in that it's "excessively clinical, as the wiki on "Gay" states correctly. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
The word, "homosexual," or, "homosexuality," is an accurate description. If you people take them as being perjorative, that's something you've made up your own minds. We can't help that.
"Homosexual" was once erroneously used as a diagnosis label for a mental illness. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
What are your credentials medically to diagnose?
Calling Gay people "homosexuals" is like calling an average person a "depressive." -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
A comparison YOU'VE made up.
Gay people are not scientific specimens. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
And, yet, you people are always trying to make the case that, scientifically, those who choose to claim that they are homosexual ARE homosexual.
Some Gay people will be mentally ill... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
SOME???
..."homosexuality" is not their health challenge. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
Of course, you and they refuse to recognize it. We recognize it, and that's one reason we oppose it.
I've heard some Gay people use "homosexual" much like I've heard Black people use the word "Negro." -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
Do you criticize them for using it? Of course you don't.
"Homosexual" usage as a mental illness diagnosis label, and that the RSV picked up the word in 1946 or thereabouts...are the main reasons, I think, why religious right activists use the word almost exclusively. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
No, it's cuz the word, "homosexual," a shortcut, accurately describes the behavior and/or the one who chooses to claim to be engaged in such repulsive, filthy, ungodly behavior.
One organization even used (uses?) software that changes "Gay" to homosexual automatically, thereby changing the athlete Tyson Gay's name to "Tyson Homosexual." -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
The software doesn't recognize context. So, is the software a perp, or victim?
The Washington Post's Mary Ann Akers says it was the American Family Association. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
Again, the software doesn't recognize context.
The religious right uses "homosexual" in a pejorative way... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
That's YOUR conclusion. We can't be responsible for that.
... I think... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
That's the trouble, you don't.
... using it to try to label all Gay people as mentally deficient... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
Well...?
... and blaming a dreadful conspiracy for forcing psychologists to drop the diagnosis of "homosexuality" from it's manuals. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
We must tell the truth.
That conspiracy theory suggests that those who claim that...want Gay people to be sick, simply because they're Gay people. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
No, they chose to go homosexual cause sick minds deviated their thinking.
That's a pejorative use of the word. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
We know that the use of the word, "gay," -- not to mention YOUR capitalization of it -- is a perjorative use of a word.
The RSV erroneously used the word in the late Forties, gave it "respectability" for use in Bible translations. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
The word, "homosexual," or, "homosexuality," are accurate descriptions of those who choose to claim that they are homosexual and their filthy, repulsive, ungodly behavior.
The word is essentially a short lived Twentieth Century medical label and abandoned social construct. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
Irrelevant. The word, "homosexual," is still effective as the most accurate shortcut to describe the repulsive, filthy, ungodly behavior, or the persons who choose to claim that they are homosexual.
As the Gay Rights bandwagon got rolling, more and more Bible translations picked up "homosexual" from the RSV, either from intellectual laziness, or perhaps even to deliberately encourage Bible readers to hate the "sin" of "homosexuality." -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
Where do you get this c r a p?
Never mind that the context of idolatry around the "homosexual" clobber verses make a blanket condemnation of Gay people highly suspect. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
Except they don't.
Never mind that the "sin of homosexuality" came into being mostly in the last few decades of the last century, as new Bible translations and paraphrases jumped onto, or cluelessly and carelessly joined in, the anti-Gay counter parade. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
Except that what God describes in His Word is an accurate description of what we now call "homosexuality."
"Hate the sin of homosexuality, but love the homosexual sinner." What smiling-faced, crocodile teared, condescendingly hateful abuse of the word "love." -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
God is love. The Word is God. Therefore, the Word is love. God is a spirit. Jesus said, "[M]y words, they are spirit." He also said that His words are life. Death and life are in the power of the tongue. So, the spirits are in words. Words of blessing, or words of curses. God told you to choose life. Words of life. Thus, the words of life and love are in the Word of God. They are not in the words of men. They are not in worldly words. Jesus came to bring the Message of God's offer of Reconciliation. For what? For Salvation. What motivated God? Love, for one thing. Out of love, He gave His Word. Out of love, those are born again give His Word. So, biblical "love" is "unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, as much concern for others' Salvation as we have for our own." Those who are born again love others by giving them the Word -- that is, the very "thing" that will save them. Worldly love will not save anyone.
That's not love, that's just hate with a superior smirk. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009
God is love.

The Word is God.

The Word is love.

God is a spirit. "[M]y words, they are spirit."

Those who are born again give God's love by giving His Word.

Never mind that I don't think Jesus wanted us to hate. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009

We know that any opposition to what you people wanna do is what YOU call "hate."
Never mind that psychologists, following the research of sociologists, corrected their "self selection" bias error, and dropped the label from their diagnostic manuals. -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009

Under pressure from those who choose to claim that they are homosexual, their supporters and activists.
As "homosexual" is no longer a disease diagnosis label... -- Posted by: Gregory Peterson at December 17, 2009

God accurately describes what we now call "homosexual/homosexuality" as being ungodly. That's good enough for us.

Yes, that's what scoffers think, if "think" is what you want to call it.

... but still, has anyone seen this "God" person recently...-- Posted by: James at December 13, 2009

Yes.
... in the flesh...-- Posted by: James at December 13, 2009

No need to see Him in the flesh. We see Him in the spirit. It's something scoffers don't understand.
... right t here...-- Posted by: James at December 13, 2009

Right here, right there, right everywhere. Of course, scoffers won't see anything.
... in front of the cameras and everything?-- Posted by: James at December 13, 2009

Is all right there.
No? Not at all?-- Posted by: James at December 13, 2009

Yes! All!
Well, then I suspect people should probably stop speaking on his behalf then. -- Posted by: James at December 13, 2009

The Lord is our Shepherd. Not you.

Separation of Church and state I believe is the bedrock of the constitution.-- Posted by: Christopher at December 14, 2009
Then, where is it in the Constitution?
This IS about Equality... -- Posted by: Christopher at December 14, 2009

A heterosexual man may marry a heterosexual woman.
A heterosexual man may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual.

A man who claims to be homosexual may marry a heterosexual woman.
A man who claims to be homosexual may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual.

A heterosexual woman may marry a heterosexual man.
A heterosexual woman may marry a man who claims to be homosexual.

A woman who claims to be homosexual may marry a heterosexual man.
A woman who claims to be homosexual may marry a man who claims to be homosexual.

NO heterosexual man -- not one -- may marry a heterosexual man.
NO heterosexual man -- not one -- may marry a man who claims to be homosexual.

NO man -- not one -- who claims to be homosexual may marry a heterosexual man.
NO man -- not one -- who claims to be homosexual may marry a man who claims to be homosexual.

NO heterosexual woman -- not one -- may marry a heterosexual woman.
NO heterosexual woman -- not one -- may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual.

NO woman -- not one -- who claims to be homosexual may marry a heterosexual woman.
NO woman -- not one -- who claims to be homosexual may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual.

There are only two sexes in the world: male and female. Those who claim to be homosexual fall into one of those categories; they are either male, or female. There is no third sex.

There is no discrimination in the law that defines "marriage" as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that everyone is either male, or female. No one is excluded.

Each man may do what other men do.
Each woman may do what other women do.

No man is a stopped from doing what other men do.
No woman is stopped from doing what other women do.

This is equal and equitable treatment and application of the law.

Oh, there is some greater than 2000 year old book written by people and selectively cobbled together to achieve a political goal...-- Posted by: James at December 13, 2009

Yes, that's what scoffers think, if "think" is what you want to call it.