Tobin Grant | June 29, 2011

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) adopted a new immigration resolution at its annual meeting held earlier this month in Phoenix. The resolution called on the government to secure the border and then provide a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants. The SBC said this path to citizenship should not be amnesty but should include “appropriate restitutionary measures.” The resolution passed, but not until after a debate that revealed the tensions many evangelicals feel over immigration.

Richard Huff, pastor of Corona de Tucson Baptist Church in Tucson, Arizona, proposed to eliminate the policy section of the resolution. At issue was the path to citizenship, a provision some saw as “amnesty” and a sanctioning of lawbreaking.

Resolution Committee chairman Paul Jimenez said his committee opposed the amendment. He called the original resolution "a realistic and biblical approach to immigration." He said that if the amendment passed the SBC work would be more difficult in areas of the country with more Hispanics.

A slim majority (766-723) voted against the amendment. Instead, additional language was added making clear that “this resolution is not to be construed as support for amnesty for any undocumented immigrant.” The resolution then passed by a show of hands.

One of the supporters of the amendment was Wiley Drake, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church of Buena Park in Buena Park, California. He said he is not against all of the resolution, just the “amnesty clause.”

“This is amnesty any way you phrase it,” Drake said. “Restitution? They don't need restitution. They need to go to work. We win people to Jesus. We get them jobs and we take them back to their country.”

Drake is a former vice president of the SBC who ran unsuccessfully for president of the SBC this year (receiving just 4 percent in a two-person race). He has been controversial in recent years for his leadership in the so-called “birther” movement; Drake called Obama an “evil illegal alien.” Most infamously, Drake prayed for the death of President Obama if he does not “turn to God.” In 2008, he called for prayer to end the lives of leaders of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Perhaps as a response, the SBC passed a “civil public discourse” resolution that specifically objected to the “calling for prayers for the deaths of public officials.”

Both the amendment and the final SBC resolution reflect a conundrum facing evangelical churches. Along with other evangelical churches, the SBC has supported immigration reform even though many in their pews hold negative views of immigrants.

A February poll by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press finds that white evangelicals are more likely to see immigrants as a burden than a strength. Pew found that evangelicals are twice as likely to see immigrants today as “a burden on our country because they take our jobs, housing and health care” than they are to say immigrants “strengthen our country because of their hard work and talents.” These views were similar—but still more negative—than other religious groups.

Hispanic Catholics and those who are not affiliated with any religion were the most positive toward immigrants, with a majority saying immigrants strengthen the country.


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Similarly, Pew found that evangelicals were the only religious tradition to have a majority say that the growing number of immigrants “threatens traditional American customs and values.” Around one-third of evangelicals said these immigrants “strengthen American society.”

Evangelicals have about the same level of support for both stronger border enforcement and a pathway to citizenship. Approximately two-thirds of evangelicals support a pathway to citizenship that includes, in the language of the SBC resolution, “appropriate restitutionary measures.” Pew found that 65 percent of evangelicals support “providing a way for illegal immigrants currently in the country to gain legal citizenship they pass background checks, pay fines, and have jobs.” This is the same as other Christian groups. Overall, 72 percent of Americans favor this policy.

At the same time, 78 percent of Americans and 89 percent of evangelicals favor “stronger enforcement of immigration laws and border security.” Nine-in-ten white Christians support greater security. Support among African-Americans and hispanic Christians is lower, but still strong (around 75 percent). Those with no religion also support this (69 percent).

The fight over the SBC immigration resolution highlights this immigration conundrum. There are many evangelicals who hold to negative views of immigrants. Nearly all evangelicals support for greater border controls and law enforcement. Yet, this does not mean that immigrants should be rounded up and deported. Most Americans, including most evangelicals, support a path to citizenship that imposes some “appropriate restitutionary measures.”

 

Editor's Note: The Pew Research Center for People and the Press (Pew) provided Christianity Today with a religious breakdown of questions from the poll. However, CT is responsible for all analysis and interpretation of the results. Pew identifies evangelicals as white, non-Hispanic Protestants who described themselves as "born-again or evangelical." About 18 percent of Americans are evangelicals by this definition. The margin of error for each religious group is larger than for the sample as a whole. The results are descriptive; religious differences could be due to partisanship, ideology, income, or other factors.

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Posted by Sarah Pulliam Bailey at June 29, 2011 | Comments (1)

Sarah Pulliam Bailey | May 12, 2011

President Obama continued his call for immigration reform at the National Hispanic Prayer Breakfast this morning, a similar call he made two years ago at the same breakfast.

Obama highlighted the work of faith leaders, including the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), on immigration.

That sense of connection, that sense of empathy, that moral compass, that conviction of what is right is what led the National Association of Evangelicals to shoot short films to help people grasp the challenges facing immigrants. It’s what led the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to launch a Justice for Immigrants campaign, and the Interfaith Immigration Coalition to advocate across religious lines. It’s what led all the Latino pastors at the Hispanic Prayer Breakfast to come together around reform.

Obama was likely referring to undocumented.tv, videos produced by World Relief, the relief and humanitarian arm of the NAE. He argued that immigration is not only an economic or security imperative.

It’s a moral imperative when kids are being denied the chance to go to college or serve their military because of the actions of their parents. It’s a moral imperative when millions of people live in the shadows and are made vulnerable to unscrupulous businesses or with nowhere to turn if they are wronged. It’s a moral imperative when simply enforcing the law may mean inflicting pain on families who are just trying to do the right thing by their children.

So, yes, immigration reform is a moral imperative, and so it’s worth seeking greater understanding from our faith. As it is written in the Book of Deuteronomy, “Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.” To me, that verse is a call to show empathy to our brothers and our sisters; to try and recognize ourselves in one another.

The Rev. Luis Cortes, Jr., president of Esperanza, the organization sponsoring the event, gave him a Bible before Obama's speech.

"I was told this will help improve my Spanish," Obama said to laughter. "And I said, 'I’ll pray on it.'"

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Posted by Sarah Pulliam Bailey at May 12, 2011 | Comments (5)

Sarah Pulliam Bailey | December 9, 2010

Senate Republicans blocked an effort to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" today, garnering 57 of the 60 votes needed. The Senate attempted a vote in September to change the military's policy barring openly gay members from serving.

One Republican, Sen. Susan Collins of Maine, voted yes. The Wall Street Journal reports that other Republicans were willing to support the repeal but said the Senate needed to consider tax and spending legislation first.

The Senate delayed a vote on the DREAM Act, which carves out a path to legal status for foreign-born children brought to the United States illegally. The House passed the the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act Wednesday. Last week, Regent University President Carlos Campo was included on a White House conference call supporting the DREAM Act.

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Posted by Sarah Pulliam Bailey at December 9, 2010 | Comments (3)

Adelle M. Banks, Religion News Service | May 14, 2010

In the shadow of Arizona's strict immigration law, a broad range of evangelical leaders are speaking in support of comprehensive immigration reform, with more specifics than some were able to embrace before.

At the same time, the No. 3 Democrat in the Senate, New York's Charles Schumer, is hoping evangelicals will nudge their allies in the GOP to push an on-again, off-again immigration bill through Congress.

The renewed push came in the form of a full-page ad in the Capitol Hill newspaper Roll Call, paid for by the National Association of Evangelicals, and a three-page policy proposal from Liberty Counsel, a conservative Christian legal firm.

The NAE statement calls for keeping families intact, securing national borders, and establishing a path to legal citizenship for qualified people who want to become permanent residents.

"Initiatives to remedy this crisis have led to polarization and name calling in which opponents have misrepresented each others' positions as open borders and amnesty versus deportations of millions," the ad reads.

"This false choice has led to an unacceptable political stalemate."

The Liberty Counsel blueprint was even more specific, calling for a "just assimilation" of those seeking legal citizenship that includes lessons in English and U.S. history. It says temporary worker visas recognize the need for "field workers to engineers" in U.S. companies.

"America deserves a just immigration policy," the statement said, "one that begins with securing, not closing, our borders, one that provides a temporary guest-worker program, and one that offers a pathway for earned legal citizenship or temporary residency."


Mathew Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel and a signatory on both the ad and the statement, said there has long been consensus on the need to secure the nation's southern border, but evangelicals are now focusing on the future of the nation's estimated 12 million undocumented
immigrants.

"I think that's where the consensus is building," he said.

Southern Baptist ethicist Richard Land said the Arizona law -- which gives local authorities new powers to round up suspected illegal immigrants -- has prompted evangelicals to feel more strongly about the need for federal reform and to speak up for their Hispanic "brethren."

"I think evangelicals have said `Enough is enough is enough,"' he said Wednesday in a teleconference call hosted by the group Conservatives for Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

Land included his name on both the ad and the policy proposal, as did the Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. Others signing the ad include NAE President Leith Anderson; megachurch pastors Bill Hybels and Joel Hunter; and civil rights veteran John Perkins. Bishop George McKinney, a leader in the predominantly black Church of God in Christ, also signed the proposal.

Even so, some of the most prominent umbrella groups for religious conservatives have not added their names to the new statements.

Focus on the Family spokeswoman Monica Schleicher said the Colorado ministry is "currently investigating the issue" but declined further comment. Family Research Council did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Christian ethicist David Gushee said the new energy surrounding immigration reform by non-Hispanic conservatives reflects a reaction to the Arizona law and long-term friendships that some have cultivated with Hispanic Christian leaders.

"Relationships are maturing and so that provides a context for engagement together," said Gushee, who teaches at Mercer University in Georgia and is a leader of the New Evangelical Partnership for the Common Good, which supports comprehensive immigration reform.

"When you've got a friend who's screaming out in pain, who's saying this is really dangerous, you pay attention to that."

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Posted by Sarah Pulliam Bailey at May 14, 2010 | Comments (15)

Sarah Pulliam Bailey | April 23, 2010

Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona today signed an immigration bill into law that would make the failure to carry immigration documents a crime. The law would also allow power to detain anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant.

The New York Times
reports that Democratic politicians are wary of taking up legislation before the fall elections. House leaders have said that the they would be willing to take up immigration policy if the Senate produces a bill first.

Senate majority leader Harry Reid (D-Nevada), who also faces re-election, has pledged to pass an energy measure, and the Senate will likely hold confirmation proceedings this summer for a Supreme Court nominee.

After the jump, various evangelical groups respond to the legislation.

Rev. Jim Wallis, president and CEO of Sojourners

“The law signed today by Arizona Gov. Brewer is a social and racial sin, and should be denounced as such by people of faith and conscience across the nation. It is not just about Arizona, but about all of us, and about what kind of country we want to be. It is not only mean-spirited – it will be ineffective and will only serve to further divide communities in Arizona, making everyone more fearful and less safe. This radical new measure, which crosses many moral and legal lines, is a clear demonstration of the fundamental mistake of separating enforcement from comprehensive immigration reform. Enforcement without reform of the system is merely cruel. Enforcement without compassion is immoral. Enforcement that breaks up families is unacceptable. This law will make it illegal to love your neighbor in Arizona, and will force us to disobey Jesus and his gospel. We will not comply.”

Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference

"Today, Arizona stands as the state with the most xenophobic and nativist laws in the country. We need a multi-ethnic firewall against the extremists in our nation who desire to separate us rather than bring us together. Shame on you Arizona Republicans and shame on you Senator John McCain for endorsing the legislation.

We call upon RNC Chairman Michael Steele to condemn this new law or Hispanic Americans will read the silence as a de facto endorsement and a purview of what will come if the GOP takes over Congress in 2010. Second, we call upon Attorney General Eric Holder to review this legislation since it’s clearly a violation of constitutionally protected civil rights. If you are Hispanic in Arizona, you just became a suspect and open to police harassment. We call upon all Latinos and immigrants who are citizens in Arizona to defend their constitutionally protected rights.”

New Evangelical Partnership for the Common Good

“Throughout the Bible, God commands us in no uncertain terms to show kindness and hospitality to the foreigner and the stranger. The deplorable anti-immigrant legislation signed by Arizona Governor Jan Brewer flouts these commandments by mandating racial profiling, criminalizing ministry to undocumented immigrants, separating immigrant families, and exacerbating a climate of fear and suspicion that pits neighbor against neighbor. We join with Evangelicals and people of conscience everywhere in denouncing this wholly unbiblical and immoral law.”

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Posted by Sarah Pulliam Bailey at April 23, 2010 | Comments (49)

Sarah Pulliam Bailey | March 22, 2010

Health care stole the spotlight yesterday, but just blocks away from the Capitol, tens of thousands of people marched in support of immigration reform. Here's a story that includes several evangelicals who attended the march yesterday.

Today, several religious leaders met with senior White House officials to discuss immigration reform, including Sojourners head Jim Wallis and Sam Rodriguez, president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. Here are statements from others:

Galen Carey, Director of Government Affairs, National Association of Evangelicals :

“We are pleased that President Obama and Members of Congress are finally giving long overdue attention to resolving the immigration crisis this year. Fixing our broken immigration system is important to the security and prosperity of all Americans, and particularly to the hardworking immigrant families who contribute so much to our churches and communities. Immigration reform can’t wait. We want action now.”

Rev. Rich Nathan, Pastor of Vineyard Church of Columbus, the second largest church in Ohio:
“As a pastor I have witnessed the brokenness of our immigration system firsthand. We have individuals from 75 different nations attending our weekend services. Some are here illegally to escape poverty and to make a better life, but now face only two options: to stay in the shadows or to be deported. In the Hebrew Bible, special provision is made for immigrants, along with orphans and widows, to safeguard the most vulnerable people in Israelite society. God’s call to people who value the authority of the Bible is clear: remember where you came from and act with justice and love towards the immigrant in your midst.”

Here are a few photos from the rally:

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Posted by Sarah Pulliam Bailey at March 22, 2010 | Comments (8)

| June 19, 2009

President Obama told an audience at the National Hispanic Prayer Breakfast that the country must be guided by the principle "love thy neighbor as thy self" as it seeks immigration reform.

"We must also clarify the status of millions who are here illegally, many who have put down roots," the President said. ""For those who wish to become citizens, we should require them to pay a penalty and pay taxes, learn English, go to the back of the line, behind those who played by the rules. ...We must give life to that fundamental belief that I am my brother's keeper, that I am my sister's keeper."

The president started his speech with his usual reminder that America is a nation of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and non-believers and spoke about the importance of prayer.

"But prayer is more than a last resort," he said. "Prayer helps us search for meaning in our own lives, and it helps us find the vision and the strength to see the world that we want to build."

Here's a portion of the speech as provided by the White House:

At a time when there's no shortage of challenges to occupy our time, it's even more important to step back, and to give thanks, and to seek guidance from each other -- but most importantly, from God. That's what we've come here to do.

We can begin by giving thanks for the legacy that allows us to come together. For it was the genius of America's Founders to protect the freedom of all religion, and those who practice no religion at all. So as we join in prayer, we remember that this is a nation of Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus and non-believers. It is this freedom that allows faith to flourish within our borders. It is this freedom that makes our nation stronger.

For those of us who draw on faith as a guiding force in our lives, prayer has many purposes. For many, it is a source of support when times are hard. President Lincoln, who Reverend Cortes mentioned, once said, "I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go." And while the challenges that I've faced pale in comparison to Lincoln's, I know that more than once I've been filled with the same conviction over the last five months.

But prayer is more than a last resort. Prayer helps us search for meaning in our own lives, and it helps us find the vision and the strength to see the world that we want to build. And that's what I'd like to talk about for just a few minutes today.

As I look out at this audience, I'm reminded of the power of faith in America -- faith in God, and a faith in the promise of this great country. Each of us come from many different places. We trace our roots back to different nations, and we represent a broad spectrum of personal and political beliefs. But all of us pray to God. All of us share a determination to build a better future for our children and grandchildren. And that must be a starting point for common ground, and for the America that we want to build.

Like some of you, I am the son of a parent who came to these shores in search of a better future. And while I may be the first African American President, there is nothing unique or unusual about the opportunities that this country gave to me. Instead, like generations of Americans, I could count on the basic promise that no matter what you look like, or where you come from, America will let you go as far as your dreams and your hard work will carry you.

And that promise is at the heart of the American story. It's a story shared by many of you -- by clergy and members of Congress; by business leaders and community organizers. It's the story of every young child who has the opportunity to go farther in life than their parents were able to go. It's the story of a young girl who could rise from a public housing project to be nominated for the highest court in the land. (Applause.) And I am confident that it's a story that will someday be told by the first Hispanic President of the United States of America. (Applause.)

But we know there is much more work to be done to extend the promise of a better life to all our children and grandchildren. In all that we do, we must be guided by that simple command that binds all great religions together: Love thy neighbor as thyself.

In the 21st century, we've learned that this truth is central not just to our own lives, but to our success as a nation. If our children cannot get the world-class education they need to succeed, then America will not be able to compete with other countries. If our families cannot afford health care, then the costs go up for all of us -- individuals, businesses, and government. If folks down the street can't pay their mortgage and folks across town can't find a job, then that pain is going to trickle into other parts of our economy.

And that's why we've come together on behalf of the future that we want to build -- one where all of our children go to the best schools, all our people can go to work and make a living, all our families can afford health care; and prosperity is extended to everybody. Together, we must build a future where the promise of America is kept for a new generation.

We also know that keeping this promise means upholding America's tradition as a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants. Those things aren't contradictory; they're complementary. That's why I'm committed to passing comprehensive immigration reform as President of the United States. (Applause.)

The American people -- the American people believe in immigration, but they also believe that we can't tolerate a situation where people come to the United States in violation of the law, nor can we tolerate employers who exploit undocumented workers in order to drive down wages. That's why we're taking steps to strengthen border security, and we must build on those efforts. We must also clarify the status of millions who are here illegally, many who have put down roots. For those who wish to become citizens, we should require them to pay a penalty and pay taxes, learn English, go to the back of the line behind those who played by the rules. That is the fair, practical, and promising way forward, and that's what I'm committed to passing as President of the United States. (Applause.)

We must never forget that time and again, the promise of America has been renewed by immigrants who make their story part of the American story. We see it in every state of our country. We see it in our families and in our neighborhoods. As President, I've been honored to see it demonstrated by the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States.

Last month, I had the honor of welcoming a group of our service members as citizens for the very first time. In that crowd, there were faces from every corner of the world. And one man from Nicaragua -- Jeonathan Zapata -- had waited his whole life to serve our country even though he was not yet a citizen. "By serving in the military," he said, "I can also give back to the United States." He's done so in Afghanistan, and he even helped man the 400,000th aircraft landing aboard the USS Kitty Hawk.

And Jeonathan's story is not unique either. He's part of a proud legacy of service. For generations, Hispanic Americans have served with great commitment and valor, and there are now nearly 150,000 Hispanic Americans serving under our flag. And today we are proud -- (applause) -- today we are proud to welcome several of them who are wounded warriors recovering at Walter Reed. Please join me in honoring their service, and in keeping them and all of our troops in our thoughts and prayers -- please. (Applause.)

These troops have dedicated their lives to serving their fellow Americans. Their example -- like those of all of our men and women in uniform -- should challenge us to ask what we can do to better serve our communities and our country, because the greatest responsibility that we have as citizens is to one another.

That's the spirit we need to build; that's the America that we seek. And to do so, we must look past our divisions to serve the hopes and dreams that we hold in common. We must give life to that fundamental belief that I am my brother's keeper, that I am my sister's keeper.

Scripture tells us, "The word is very near to you. It is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it." Today, let us pray for the strength to find the word in our hearts, and for the vision to see the America that we can build together as one nation, and as one people.

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Posted by Sarah Pulliam Bailey at June 19, 2009 | Comments (3)

Alicia Cohn | June 11, 2009

Several Christian activists don't want to see immigration reform get left behind the administration's economic and health care concerns.

In a press conference on Wednesday, members of Christians for Comprehensive Immigration Reform (CCIR), a nonpartisan coalition of churches and other organizations, expressed urgency that immigration reform happen this year. "Every single day that we wait on immigration reform is more suffering we are inflicting on undocumented people," said Jim Wallis, President and CEO of Sojourners. "This is a matter of faith for us. The way we treat the stranger, the scriptures say, is the way we treat Jesus in himself. And the stranger, in the face and form of undocumented people, is not being treated very well."

Their objective might be challenged in the House by Rep. Mike Honda (D-Calif.) and in the Senate by Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vermont), who want to add same-sex partners in the same category as spouses in new immigration legislation. Senator Leahy told The New York Times it was "a matter of fairness," while Honda said in the San Francisco Chronicle that "it's a civil rights issue."

Politico reported that the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is withdrawing its support from the bill over the issue of gay rights. Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, President of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, told Politico that the addition of gay rights language was a "slap in the face to those of us who have fought for years for immigration reform." However, on Wednesday, Rodriguez indicated that the group's unity is their greatest asset when he said that "the strength of the coalition is stronger than anything that may arise in Congress."

The coalition released a Statement of Principles Wednesday and a new website, emphasizing three core policies for immigration reform legislation: a pathway to citizenship, a guest worker program, and border protection stipulations. The coalition emphasizes the treatment of every human being as made in the image of God, regardless of their documented status, but the coalition does not seek to dictate how particular churches respond to difficult situations.

A meeting at the White House scheduled for June 17 is intended to open discussion on immigration policy between House and Senate leaders from both parties. Although President Obama has stated his intention to address problems within the immigration system this year, many, such as Senate Majority Lleader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), doubt whether anything will change this year due to the already full legislative calendar.

Christianity Today has offered an editorial take on how to handle immigration.

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Posted by Sarah Pulliam Bailey at June 11, 2009 | Comments (18)

| April 14, 2009

At noon today, rather than join friends at a baby shower with cake and cookies, I listened in during the press briefing concerning new research estimates on unauthorized immigrants (aka illegal immigrants) and their families.

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The report (click here) from the Pew Hispanic Center follows up on earlier research estimates and indicates there are 11.9 million illegal immigrants in the USA. (It is important to note that this is a projected estimate based on Census Data and other resources.)

Particularly fascinating to me is how the profile of the typical illegal immigrant has changed over time. It seems like, based on this research, a young dad with a young family, living in poverty without health insurance, and working in the AG sector of the US economy pretty much sums up the life and lifestyle of an illegal immigrant in 2009.

Here's the lede graphs from the Washington Post story:

The number of U.S.-citizen children born to illegal immigrants has dramatically increased over the past five years from 2.7 million in 2003 to 4 million in 2008, according to a study released today. The report by the nonpartisan, Washington-based Pew Hispanic Center also found that more than a third of such children were in poverty in 2007, compared with about 18 percent of those born to either legal immigrants or U.S.-born parents. Similarly, one in four U.S.-born children of unauthorized immigrants went without health insurance in 2008, compared with 14 percent of those born to legal immigrants and 8 percent born to U.S.-born parents. The findings suggest that the impact of the unprecedented spike in illegal immigration over the past three decades will continue to be felt for years to come, even as the size of the illegal immigrant population itself appears to have leveled off since 2006 at about 10.4 million adults and 1.5 million children.

(Photo: 2006, pro-immigrant protest)

During the press conference, reporters kept asking causal questions: Why has immigration leveled off? The bad economy or what? What is causing illegal immigrants to return home? What about the effects of new punitive legislation for those who hire illegal immigrants?

But the question rolling around in my head today is this:

What would Jesus do about illegal immigrants and their children?

No, I'm not looking for a bumper sticker answer or a public policy strategy or a Sunday school lesson about caring for the poor.

This issue of illegal immigrant families is not getting any easier for the church. These are families who need a lot of attention. They are poorer, less educated, and less cared for than the typical American family. They often don't have ready access to resources in an emergency.

Here's the big multiple choice question,

Would Jesus:

A. Look to Washington for a solution.
B. Call INS.
C. Invite them to a worship service.
D. Visit them.
E. Meet their needs.
F. All of the above.
G. None of the above.

President Obama said last week that he is seeking an "orderly way" for illegal immigrants to become American citizens. That's his solution. I wonder if that's even possible any more.

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Posted by Tim Morgan at April 14, 2009 | Comments (42)