Sadly, this happens week in and week out in hundreds, if not thousands, of churches. And it will continue until God's people wake up and speak up. Women in the church, and particularly women in ministry, have been dealing with this centuries-old mindset since the day man began to "interpret" God's Word.

The age-old arguments about holy hierarchy and silent submission sound more "enlightened" in today's modern churches. But the result is the same: Women are thwarted in their efforts to serve God with the gifts He has given them and the call He has made on their lives. And they are becoming increasingly more frustrated with the church.

My purpose in responding is not to "make a stand" on the argument of whether women should be pastors or elders or deacons or "in authority" over a man. We can spend several more centuries in that arena. What I want to do is encourage women who are dealing with this issue to be a part of the dialogue here.

I think it is important for us to speak up about our experiences in order to encourage one another as we decide what God would have us do when this happens to us.

I can tell you as a woman in full-time ministry that I have seen Donna's situation occur more times than I can count. And my heart aches as I watch gifted, godly women (1) shrink from participation; (2) take a stand and be "labeled"; (c) give up on serving in the church entirely; (d) under-serve in some lesser capacity; or (d) leave the church who discouraged her faith walk.

It sounds like Donna knows what her denomination believes about women's roles in her church and in its ministry. She probably is familiar enough with her pastor and the male leadership enough to know whether speaking up, asking questions, and/or taking a stand will make a difference or cause her to be ostracized in some way.

Sometimes these things happen because they are opportunities God gives us to speak honestly to the pastor and male leaders of the church about how such actions and decisions can negatively impact the entire church. Other times it is simply the catalyst for us to go elsewhere to serve.

But whatever the circumstance, Donna, let me encourage you to seek a place where you can use your ALL of your gifts, talents and passion to serve God in EXACTLY the way HE has called you to serve. Doing otherwise is to not be obedient to His unique plan for your life.

If the church is not that place, then ask God to show you where that place is and go do what He has gifted you to do there. He will throw open the doors for you when you follow Him.

God does not gift us and call us and then expect us to hide our gifts because of the actions of other human beings. Follow His lead in this and be faithful in your service to Him. When you do that, you may quickly discover that your path looks different than you thought when you started, but the rewards will be greater than you could have imagined!

It's an amazing sleight-of-hand to watch how a person who wants to help provide a solution to a problem becomes the problem. Then, the leadership team can attack "the problem", feel as if they've done something big and valuable, and nothing at the church ever has to change.

Praying for you, Donna. Guard your heart against bitterness.

Hi Donna: I had pondered the problem that you had experienced, and am quite familiar with the struggles that occur in ministry. Unfortunately when someone is zealous and at a place where they can be used remarkably in the role of administrator, and also are gifted in Leadership, presenting a strategy for the church can be misconstrued. I have experienced that before, and the only way that I knew how to deal with it was to provide what God had given me to the Senior Pastorate. My committment, showed that my motives were correct. I would pray and ask the Lord to show you how you can perhaps re-address the leadership. They evidently saw what the Lord had laid on your heart as something that was beneficial. So the question then becomes Lord show them my heart. I would expect that you being the administrator of the church are very close to the leadership and they should "Know YOU". In my experience as a Manager, how I would know if someone was controlling and wanted to take over was in the way in which they tried emphatically to persuade me to follow their direction, and not desire to have a vision be stretched amongst us as a team. Unfortunately if your leadership do not understand the fundamentals of teambuilding with ministry, it will be hard for the gift of administration and leadership to be effectively utilized. I pray that whatever God has given you would be a blessing, and that you would be given the opportunity to enter into discourse with your leadership where they can address any "fears" of you being controlling. God always sends the right people to help build a ministry, and they are fully packaged with everything necessary. Unfortunately sometimes we have a tendency not to develop and cultivate leadership gifts onboard in ministry, but appreciate leadership development in the corporate arena. Some suggestions might be to ask them to give you a 360 feedback session with your Leadership team, and also to ask for any tools necessary to overcome controlling issues that they feel they may have identified if they do exist. This will also show a depth of humility that you are willing to take constructive criticism, as well as receive any help and direction they might have at developing you whilst the vision is still unfolding. In a corporate arena, when someone has been brought onboard to help expand a department, because the person recognizes the goals and vision of the company, they usually work to their best to achieve that. Well this same principle can be applied in ministry, once the vision has been prayed over. This will be great for any growing ministry. Thank God for Jethro, who knew how to help Moses to delegate. There is obviously room for the skill of teambuilding and leadership development within a Christian Ministry. Be encouraged. Dont be afraid.. sit down, and think this through again, and see how God will allow you to present yourself to your leadership. Some great resources for women in ministry. Elmer Towns - Women Gifted For Ministry. Final scripture for you today: 1 Cor: 20 Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. 21 The eye can never say to the hand, "I don't need you." The head can't say to the feet, "I don't need you." 22 In fact, some of the parts that seem weakest and least important are really the most necessary.

Donna,

My heart goes out to you as well as my prayers for you. I know of this senario all too well and unfortunately it happens all the time, not just in the church but in the workplace and the world at large. I believe that God has given you administrative gifts and talents for the working of the ministry; unfortunately (insecure) men always seem to allow Satan to fill their hearts with pride and end up hindering what God wants to do for His people and the world.

I encourage you to continue to serve God faithfully in "whatever (else) your hands find to do" and do help the elder if he calls on you. But ultimately you have done what you can by communicating the idea with your Pastor and the leadership. Although it may not be right, the leadership has chosen to allow an elder rather than you to oversee the execution of the expansion/vision. Just leave insecure human beings to God while you pray for them and continue to be faithful to God in that ministry.

I found the woman of God's story too familiar.It seems as though women of God are Gifted in their anointings and have awesome insight and vision but all too common is the spirit of oppression.I believe that if a man of God stops or hinders the flow or natural order of God in a woman's Life it's because he doesn't know his place in God.Therefore he becomes insecure in the flesh. There is a God ordained synchronized flow that can occur in harmony in ministry between men and women of God.Many women have reached their peak and the season in that ministry has come to an end therefore it is time for that woman of God to launch out on her own.Many women Of God are afraid of that because they are in fear that they didn't hear God correctly.As women of God we must be assured just as our co labouring brothers are in the Gospel.If a man had a vision and he went to the pastor and shared his heart then there would be no questions .God is fair he is just and women in the Gospel should have the same chance to flow the way that they feel is right in the sight of God.So Women of God gird up your spiritual loins and walk in the truth don't be afraid too walk in what God is calling you to walk
in.Continue to walk in love with our brothers in the Gospel but also state your positon and tell those in the ministry that your assurance is just as theirs is when it cime to having a vision for your Life.Donna,my prayer is that you will seek the counsel of the Holy Spirit he'll never lead you wrong. From the heart of one woman of God to another

Again, it is clear that you have the gift of administration, and that God desires to use you in this area.
I completely understand how you feel, as I have experienced this too. I presented it to the pastor who had heart for it also, but nothing happened. I thought, "Why would God give me this great vision (and even details!) if He didn't want to see it come to fruition now?"
I prayed and prayed that God would speak to the pastor's heart, and show me if I was perhaps wrong in some area.
It turned out that it was God's will, but God just wanted me to wait and be in prayer. The timing was crucial, and only God saw the circumstances that would unfold.
So, after a (seemingly long) season of humility and prayer, God was faithful to give me another opportunity to present the vision to the pastor. This time, it was evident that God had been speaking to his heart the same way.
Sure enough, it came to fruition in His time.
To this day, I daily remind myself to be anxious for nothing, but instead pray and God's peace will guard my heart and mind.

There is so much waste in the church because of fear (many Christian brothers/leaders, both male and female fear gifted and bold Chrisitan women and 'rocking the boat) and timidity (many gifted Chrsitian women stultify because they are too timid to speak up and be heard)- two 'spirits' that God has not given Chrsitians. But as we wait on the Lord and open our ears, not only will the Lord work it togetehr for our good, but He Who opens and none can shut, and makes a way where there is none, will enlarge the coast of any woman that stays strong in her calling.

The first thing to do is to name what's been done as sin. The second thing to do is forgive.

Donna,

I am sorry you are having to go through this experience. That is certainly hurtful. It must be difficult, not only on a personal level, but also to see all the potential for an exciting transforming vision be put aside (at least for the moment). I get the sense you are someone who longs to see the work of God move in your church.

I have a couple thoughts, though without knowing more of your situation, you may have already done this.

1) Authentic communication. They know you want to see the vision implemented, but have you bared your heart to them? Have you had a meeting where you said, "I respect your leadership, and I in no way want to come across as controlling. I just so deeply care about this vision. It grieves my heart that it might be put aside. I am afraid that all our passion for this vision will be lost. I am confused about what is keeping us from moving forward. Are you still interested in implementing the vision? If so, when can we expect to see action on it? If not, are there some new concerns about the vision that you have? I respect your decision to allow the elder to take charge of the implementation. Is it possible for me (and some others) to work under his leadership to assist him in some way? I know he must have a lot of other responsibilities that might make it difficult for him to start working on the vision. I am glad to help. Again, I am not trying to be pushy, its just that God has put such a burden on my heart to see the awesome things that could happen through this vision if we implement it. And, my heart aches to think it might not come to pass."

2. Accept that we cannot force change on others. If you have bared your heart and they are not receptive, then, there isn't anything that can be done to make them do something. If you believe that what is happening is wrong--there is a biblical way to address sin (Matt. 18). You would have to pray about that one, and how it could be done--since the leadership seems to be complicit. Are there any male allies that are respected by the leadership? This is pretty delicate. It could end up looking like trying to create a schism and end up a mess, but it might be possible if done properly and soaked with a lot of prayer.

3. If the vision is not going to be implemented, or if you cannot use your gifts at this church, you have to decide how you are going to respond. Is this a time to be patient and pray? Its only been a month since its been in the elder's hands. Is it a matter of praying and waiting? Is it a matter of persevering in an imperfect human institution and accepting that you will not be able to spread your wings at this particular church? Are there reasons to stay at this church for a greater good? If you remain (or even if you didn't), it will involve employing a lot of forgiveness and seeking other ways to use your gifts that the leaders are more receptive to.

Or, is it time to pray about moving on to another church? I am strongly against church hopping. I think we too often cut and run when things get difficult. We need to recognize the church is an imperfect place. Yet, there are also times to seek out what exactly God wants to do through us in this life. Perhaps you are a voice God is using, at this time, to keep reminding that church of a greater vision, and in time, there will be a break through. Its never been an easy job to be prophet.

Or, perhaps God will guide your steps elsewhere. Whatever decision you make, be patient in making it, and seek godly and confidential counsel from a few spiritually mature women and men who will pray for you and seek a word from God on your behalf.

I think we all realize that we have been in Donna's shoes at one time or another. To try and analyze the motivations of others is fruitless. The best thing to do is go and ask them. Donna should ask for an audience with the elders and share from her heart why she feels as she does. She should make sure they understand the progression of her vision and how she administered that vision prior to it being shared with them. She also needs to ask them to give her examples of her control issues and note whether any of those things have ever been discussed with HER. One can not address what one does not know is a problem. This is even more important to do when one is on staff as it sounds like Donna is. She is entitled to a fair assessment of her abilities and duties as an employee of the church - if they haven't done that previous to criticizing her over this issue, they've sinned against Donna. If they HAVE discussed this with Donna in the past and she has not addressed their concerns, then SHE has some accountability issues that need to be dealt with.

I have to be frank here - the elders ought to be talking to Donna and Donna ought to be talking to the elders - not to us. Until the one-on-one is taken care of none of us as Christians has a biblical right to go and speak to others. Not even if we're women and feel we're being treated poorly. The bible is very clear on conflict resolution and we should not expect God's blessing on our ministries unless we're willing to follow what He has instructed us to do.

I believe that Matthew 18:15-17 applies to ALL of us - even those who are elders. When Donna has laid out her grievances clearly to the elders and not received what she feels is fair and equitable treatment, then she has the right to GO BACK to them with others who will also plead her case, and eventually to the church for a decision if it can't be resolved. We are never free as Christians - women or not - to just go about talking about our issues with the leadership of our church because we're unhappy with how they've handled something. God has made provision for this situation in His scriptures. If Donna follows God's model and is still being sinned against, then she can rest assured that God will deal with those in leadership that need dealing with. I can rest assured HE is on MY side when I have conducted myself in a way that assures GOD that I am on HIS side - by being obedient.

We also need to realize that there is no ball and chain around our legs ladies. We can choose our churches and we can choose our ministries. We have freedoms in this country that far surpass those of our Christian sisters around the world. Donna has a choice whether she will continue to serve alongside those she feels have mistreated her. She should only choose to do so if she can follow the course of action laid out in the scriptures and then leave the rest to God. If she is still unhappy, perhaps she needs to consider if there is another place of service, Christian or secular, where her gifts can be used to best advantage - for her and for the kingdom. I believe there are many businessees and ministries that would be blessed to have someone with Donna's abilities serving alongside them. Let's not forget that the world needs us too - not just the church. There is much opportunity to expand the kingdom in a secular business environment and we've had some wonderful articles posted on this blog about that very point.

If God has given Donna a vision & gifting for a ministry, then Donna will be called to account for what she did with what God has given her.

The Parable of the Talents wasn't just written for men, it was written for women too!

God has given us talents, gifts & big dreams for Him. I felt called out of my last church because I could not use my gifts in the best way possible for the Kingdom of God. I feel a huge responsibility to use what God has given me for the best possible ROI (Return on Investment).

I've seen too many women stay at churches that prohibit / hinder/ oppress women from using their gifts to serve the Kingdom of God.

I'd do what I could to talk to the senior pastor about this, that's where the buck stops. If you don't have that support, it may be time to ask God if He's calling you somewhere YOU CAN use your gifts for His KIngdom purposes.

Get out! Quickly because time is of essence!

I spent over 20 years I should have left sooner. God wants to use you! If they are not making room for you then, get out and God will make room for you!

From experience, I speak!

Get out! Quickly because time is of essence!

I spent over 20 years I should have left sooner. God wants to use you! If they are not making room for you then, get out and God will make room for you!

From experience, I speak!

Hi Donna,
I have struggles with much the same issues. The only exception is that I didn't even get as far as the Decons or elders. I have gone to my pastor on numerous occasions and each time he has appeared to be supportive and when I have followed up, it's as if there is no time for looking into what I've shared or is if I'm going through a phase and "this too shall pass." I've really heard God's calling in my heart to present a prayer strategy that would help our church becoming a prayer saturated church. My pastor says that people would not respond to anything of that nature especially being presented by a woman. I have attended several conferences and prayer summits that fuel my passion for worship based prayer. It is nothing more than seeking Gods face before you seek His hand. In Gods presence is where repentance an restoration happens.That just doesn't seem to happen in my church any more. I was told that all of my conferences and classes were for nothing. To put it bluntly, I was told that my gifts could not be used in our church. I was also told not to share anything I learned from those prayer conferences with any of the women because they were intimidated by the things I had learned and shared. I resigned from the Women's Ministry team back last August because a woman told me that I came back from those conferences and was arrogant and acted like I was now an expert on the subject of prayer. I wanted to be upset and angry but I stepped back and asked the Lord to help me see this from the womens perspective. The passion in my heart for a prayer saturated church has not gone away. The Lord has released me and given me a peace in my heart to tie up any loose ends at this church that I've been active in for 28 years. I have committments in teaching Bible study until the end of May. After that I'm praying for God to lead me and my husband to a church where we can serve together in the areas of our giftedness. I would search out God's direction in this because when I sat back and listened to the Fathers voice, He very quickly revealed to me that I was grieving Him by not being obedient to His call on my life.
Much love in Christ,
Cheri D.

Well said, Pastor Salinas. This story is all too common because of a faulty theology built on a couple of Scripture verses. Donna and other gifted women may well have to leave organized Christianity (or at least their church setting), before they are able to serve the Lord wholeheartedly. The great news is, the Kingdom of God is much bigger than one church or denomination.

Glory to GOd in the highest!!

Donna,

Trust in the Lord, and he will move Heaven and Earth to accomplish his Purpose. Know that obedience always brings blessing.

And that GOD's Grace is the starting point.Fight your battles on your knees, and you will win every time.

GOD said:
"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

Remaine positive in the right spirit in spite of your circumstances.Be prepared equip yourself with a spiritual and emotional support system.

Persevere in doing what is right.Keep on keeping on.Persist in trusting GOD even though it might seem far.

Keep in mind that GOD is the ruler he will have the last word and it will be good.

Hi Donna, I am very familiar with your situation and am currently undergoing the same struggles in my own church. I am leading what we have called the vision ministry, where we try to help all ministries work together to move forward, and challenge ourselves to do things better. I have had moments where I've been ready to quit, but each time God would remind me to think about why we initially started this. I had to learn that my task is to glorify God and be part of His plan for me, not MY plan for Him. Therefore when you feel terribly frustrated especially with men, I would encourage you to remember that this is not a battle against men. They may not always have it right either, but the devil is quite clever at distracting us, and getting us to enjoy the battle to authority (Eve's curse). I would also encourage you to spend time praying for the male leaders in your church, that they would truly lead, serve, and love as Christ did. Men have a terribly big responsibility and praying that they would realise this, helps me get less frustrated at their weakness of not serving enough, or not serving the way I'd like them to! I struggle equaly enough with other women who don't get as passionate as I do about ideas for change, but the same applies here. I am serving in church, but getting frustrated because others are not yet ready to see things my way (or maybe I have it wrong and might one day see it there way!). This calls for my patience and love, which is what ministry is all about isn't it?
Keep going Donna, don't get sidetracked by others issues. Talk to a godly male at your church about these issues; I did, and found that a huge help. Keep praying that God would show you what to do. Jesus did say that serving him is hard work, you won't be popular, but if you truly are serving God, he will be there every step of the way.

Just pray, be still and watch God work. God knows how to handle his business. He will either move you, move on some hearts in the leadership of your church or move his business forward in that church however he chooses. But be still and watch him work. I'm a ordained and licensed associate minister at a Baptist church and God has used the women here mightily and he tore down strong holds to do it. But you have to keep in mind it's God's business and he will handle it. Let God continue to use you. You are in my prayers. But only follow God's direction and sometimes he will direct us to just be still.

Donna,
I am so sorry that this ordeal has frustrated you.
Your heart before the Lord is of utmost importance, and He values your gifts and that you were vulnerable enough to share with the church.
I encourage you first , to grab hold of this issue and learn from it. If the Lord has given you a heart for leadership and teaching others to lead... this issue is imparitive to understand and biblically address on both sides.
i.e. . . How would you, as a leader, address someone who has a new idea ?
. . . How would you instruct others to deal with problems with church leadership?

Let this issue drive you further into seeking God's heart...on these matters.
Secondly, if He called you, rest in Him. That is not to say that you should not do anything. Study Leadership. Research Everything. Begin to Mentor. Step out in what God has called you to. But, let God raise you up to the position He has for you.
Again, I am grateful for your heart....thanks for desiring to build up the body of Christ.

Keep Praying!
God Knows!
God is in control!

Donna's great idea was a prophetic correction for her church. Prophets get to present the idea - miracle of miracles they embraced what she saw! Then she should have been content to allow the men to implement it - she doesn't have the authority to teach men directly in a leadership role, and that's okay. She clearly has a prophetic gift of seeing things that are wrong and helping guide the church. What woman in her right mind wants the pressure of having to implement the strategy?

Dear Ladies,

Thank you so very much for the many wonderful words of encouragement and the insights you have shared. Many have found themselves in similar situations which has been an affirmation to me that there is a lot more at stake than whether or not I am given permission to oversee this endeavor. It is just a symptom of a larger problem that must be addressed, the health of our churches in how well we are authentically communicating with each other, holding each other accountable and the need to come to a better biblical understanding of the roles of leadership (including women) and what that will look like in our churches. I would highly appreciate any resources on that subject. Knowing that I am not alone in my struggles has been a comfort in that I do not feel so alone or isolated. I totally agree that the church is not perfect because it is made of imperfect people (including myself, the pastor and the elders). Doing all we can by seeking God’s direction and will for our lives both individually and corporately is of the utmost importance. If not, how else can He use us to our fullest potential to reach others for His Kingdom.

I don’t feel that this situation is being handled in a healthy manner because if “control issues” have been recognized or if there is a problem with my involvement at this level of leadership then why have I not been directly addressed. As elders, I feel that these men are held to a high accountability to handle such matters in a biblical way. Why has that not happened? I have sought counsel from others who I highly respect for their wisdom and discernment with the intention of trying to better understand this situation, the dynamics behind it and any part I may have played, all with the intention that when the time came I would be better able to address the elders with a pure heart and clarity of mind based on prayer and good counsel. I would like to respond to some of the comments as well as share some of the insights I have learned from two professional Christian counselors who are very familiar with how dysfunction is alive and well in the church.

To those who have shared encouragements about the gifts, abilities and passions God has given, I thank you. The reminder that He has wired me this way and He will use me for His purposes and in His timing really has helped.

To those who have encouraged me to have honest dialogue with a humble heart, I whole-heartedly agree and will continue to seek God’s wisdom and direction as to how to do that in the most healthy way possible.

To those who have asked me to be open to God’s leading in that He may want to use my talents in different ways or arenas. I will but must say that I truly feel that He has called me to be where I am right now. It is so easy to pick up your toys and go elsewhere but then how will change happen. If He wants me to stay and be a catalyst for change then I will stay. If He shows me that it is time to move on, I will, but don’t feel that this is His leading at this time. I love my church and believe that this verse applies to my church as well as for me personally... For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:10-12 which gives me the strength and hope to carry on.

Finally, I have been on a journey with the Lord for several years now in better receiving who I am in Him, understanding myself better and through that coming to a better understanding of how we as humans inter-relate whether for the good or bad. The Christian counselors I have spoken with who have helped me in the past, have had wonderful insights into the dynamics involved here and have given me excellent counsel on what I can own and do something about and what I can’t. In reflection, I believe that God has done all this groundwork in my life and brought me into relationship with these people all in preparation for such a time as this. I would highly encourage anyone who is going through a struggle to seek good counsel from an outside party such as a Christian counselor who can help you stay grounded in the Lord and keep perspective throughout your struggle.

If this blog is still available long enough that I can update you later with a “progress report” emphasis on the word “progress” which is my hope, I will do so.

Thanks, Donna, for sharing your story and for being receptive to God's voice (and encouraging all of us to listen to him as well). You mentioned wanting some resources that address leadership issues in churches and help us to wrestle with some of these issues. If you don't know, please be aware that Christianity Today International (who sponsors this blog)offers many resources for church leadership training and development, including hundreds of low-cost downloadable booklets. Have you checked out the site Building Church Leaders? Very soon (starting in April), Building Church Leaders will feature downloadable booklets created specifically for our Gifted for Leadership community: women with the gift of leadership. If you subscribe to the newsletter, you'll see these resources featured in each issue.

I guess I'm just wondering how beneficial this sort of forum really is. We can't know all the details of this situation. The elders concluded that Donna has control issues. Why did they conclude that? Is it because they're a pack of evil, insecure men who don't want any woman to gain glory or power, or is there a valid reason for this conclusion? In my experience as a pastor (and as a parent!), I've learned that anyone can portray themselves as the innocent victim and and deceitfully gain sympathy from others. I'm not saying that's what's occuring here, but how can we know? You have people cheering Donna on and getting angry on her behalf, but what if Donna has actually done something wrong? Has anyone asked that question? And why are there some people standing in judgement of God's Word which clearly prohibits women from being in positions of leadership? Not that Donna is trying to do that, but some responders in this blog have. Just because someone is good in a certain role doesn't mean they should be in that role. For example, I'm sure that there are gay couples who make excellent parents: They love their children, they don't embitter them, they balance discipline with love, they set a good example for their children, they spend time with their children, etc., but just because they are good at being parents doesn't mean they should be in that role. Why? Because it goes against God's design. And who are we to say that we know better what God's design is? We have to adjust our values, assumptions, and beliefs to what God's Word teaches, not vice versa.

A great resource on the issue is "Men and Women in the Church: Building Consensus on Christian Leadership" by Dr. Sarah Sumner. Its the best book I have read on the subject. I highly recommend it to everyone (including Josh who just posted). God has used this book to help churches engage in thoughful honest discussion about women's involvement in the church. Dr. Sumner has addressed the issue with a kind of grace and integrity rarely seen in the many other books on the subject. I found it healing. Go read it.

Donna,

I agree with those who suggest finding a church where you can use your talents and giftings. I was raised in a denomination that was very restrictive on what women could do, but God called me to be a pastor and preach. I am now an ordained pastor in the Church of the Nazarene.

And I do hope you can keep us updated. I would love to know what happens.

Pastor Shawna

Donna, Almost everything has been said...but here a couple more thoughts. As much as we would like to, we simply cannot change anyone--including the men who are in a particular church in leadership. I am an associate pastor in my church, and have come to the conclusion that God holds me responsible only for myself...not for their actions. The temptation to base my "success" in ministry on the agreement of the male leadership around me, will most certainly turn to terrific frustration. Or if I need their approval in order to feel that God is present in my ministry--I'm in trouble. Seems to me, we should expect "trouble in this world". Jesus simply did not spend time trying to find a solution to people not buying His program!! He just listened to the Spirit's voice and followed and obeyed--irrespective of the agreement or lack of it from those around Him.

I disagree with those that would imply that we must be "sucessful" as a way to show that God is at work in our ministries. Jesus never used "success" as a means of validating or legitimizing His ministry. To come at it from the opposite direction, are we saying that we have to have the approval of the elders in order to know we are being obedient to Christ?

When I came on as an associate, the elders promptly shot down my first big plan. I recognized this as a power play and refused to play their game. Recognizing that "what is, is", I simply dropped it myself and went on to work hard and gradually suggest things and implement vision little by little. They now trust me to an amazing degree, but not because I whined about them and tried to rally support. Find ways of allowing their fears of you or what you would do to be allayed by patience, grace, time, a sweet but courageous and honest spirit.

To those who suggest approaching the pastor or elders from the Matt. 18 principle, be sure you are sinless, and place a stone in your pocket to throw. And here's another suggestion: before you leave home to tell them about their sin, take a big bite out of an apple to remind yourself that we ALL participate in the sin of Eve and Adam.

All the best.

I would like to say first of all we can tell by the comments that we all are men and women of God but we all are different.I thank God that the vineyard is plentiful but the laborers are few. I think this verse says a lot about us as leaders, instead of disagreeing on personal issues let us get to the real issue.There is still work to do and he needs us all.

Donna,
My beloved sister in Christ. I thank God for you and believe that He has a place for you in the Kingdom of God. I agree with one of the earlier posts, where it was said that this is a prophetic gift. I believe that you were chosen by God to speak life into a dead situation. Any time that tradition is come up against, we know that it is not going to be easy because of the deep roots of pride that are connected with tradition. I admonish you to intercede on behalf of your church leaders, bind up the spirit of tradition and pride and loose the spirit of brokeness and humility and TRUTH into their lives and do not stop until you see the manifestation of this. God did not send the vision to you from the outside, He sent it from the inside. You are where you are for a reason and many times we christians take this as a way to pick up and leave. God trusts you, if He did not, He would not have revealed to you what He revealed. More than anything, I beseech you to submit to the leaders over you more than anything else because God has placed them in authority. We do not have to agree with their opinions, but God does tell us to submit and pray for them. God will honor this more than you wanting to implement what He has shown you. I just published my first book in January and it is called Breaking the "Eve" Mentality and this book was only birthed after I had to deal with many areas of submission in my life. God showed me that just because He shows me things in the Spirit, does not necessarily mean that I will be the one to bring forth that revelation. Many of us allow bitterness and resentment to rise up in us because we feel that we are not being taken seriously in our ministries. I tell you that your main ministry is to the Lord. Be that virtuous woman of God that I know you are and walk in humility and love and do not allow the enemy an inch into your life because of this situation. There is an old saying that goes, "KILL THEM WITH KINDNESS". Love them so much that they will see the Lord on the inside of you. Show them Jesus and watch the Lord elevate you, not man. May God richly bless you for all you do in His name.
in His Service,
deborah hunter/germany

I have been in the same situations. I was asked to evaluate the church and inform the pastor how the church could be improved. It was my 3rd week in the church. I knew then this would be the church from hell. I already had some doubts, but I thought it was missing my old church. When James Howell spoke, I knew I was in church. This man heard about the marvelous work I was doing starting charter schools across the United States, asked me to given it all up to help him start 1. Can you beleive this. God, gave me a directive and he told me to give it up. I did not even give him the courtesy of reacting. We have to truly know who we serve, God not man. We have to stand by what told us to do. We have to evaluate the pastor's past behavior. Ask yourself, was the pastor pasting the buck- knew the answer was going to be no. When God tells us to do something come hell or high water it shall be done-is the mentality we must have. You should start your own business helping churches- allow the leaders to see what god has enabled you to do. I too was too I was controlling, I was a whore and many other names to distract people from the real issue-God told me and not them.

I can relate to some of Donna's story, but in God's economy, faith, patient waiting, prayer, submission are what will glorify God in the long run. As we hand the situation over to God, we will be blessed as we entrust God with the results and watch Him work as only He can. If the result I desire happens only as a result of my efforts, manipulations and scheming, how does God get the glory out of that? (Please note: I use the word "scheming" since God continually shows me my tendency to scheme, and He keeps reminding me that my scheming is not the way He wants to accomplish His plan. For example, see Isaiah 40:13, or think of the story of Abram, Sarai and Hagar in Genesis 16.)

We need to continually ask ourselves: "Am I seeking His Glory alone?"

I Thessalonians 5:24
Peace in Christ,
Karen

It sounds like you were talking about me in this post. This recently happened to me as well. I've sought God to reveal his plan to me regarding the details of this vision. If this was his vision, I trusted it would go forward and the right people would support me.

Within 2 weeks, in a shocking revelations that I can't post here, God spoke and put a halt on it all. I sense he has said, "I'm going to spare you pain...this is the right vision, but the wrong place for it." I sense I will revisit this vision in the days ahead in another format.

I'd also encourage her to get validation or clarity on this statement. ie. did they really say this? Who told her this? Why? If that's the case why do they say this?

"When she followed up on the plan, she was informed that the elders think she has control issues."

Great book to read:

"Why Not Women?" by David Hamilton
Foreword by Loren Cunningham

Check out www.ywampublishing.com
to purchase this book and other wonderful books.

I feel for Donna having served in a setting where women in ministry were not regarded as capable. It is a difficult position to be in. I would follow up on the control issue and find out what the basis is for the observation. I would then humbly submit that to prayer and be open to hear what the Lord says concerning it.

As for her vision for ministry....God gets the Glory as long as the vision He's given gets fulfilled. Is she sure about what her role is in that fulfillment? I would suggest that she go back to God for clarity and in the meantime submit herself to assist the Elder that has been assigned. If the goal is truly to implement the plan of God then does it really matter if she leads it or serves as the undercurrent that keeps it moving? As long as His will is done.

Hi Donna,
Thanks so much for being willing to share your story. I am encouraged by your grace and perseverance. Here are some resources I have found helpful:

Called and Gifted, Sharon Cairns Mann

Equal to the Task

Women as Risk-Takers for God, by Lorry Lutz

All God's People, by John Phelan

I hope these books are an encourgaement and resource for you as you continue to work through this situation.

May God's grace be abundant in your life today.

It's funny, Donna, that you mentioned in your second post, "for such a time as this". I wonder if you were thinking what I was thinking--I was thinking back to when I recently studied the book of Esther. Sure she was a powerful woman--a queen! God gave her vision by her compassion to save His people. But others thought she was just there to look pretty. Of course, she faced the arrogant Haman who tried to get in the way, and in fact, the king who for a time only seemed to acknowledge all of Haman's "brilliant" ideas. But remember that Esther found favor in his sight. She also fasted over the issue (and called all the Jews to do the same!)She could have left and abandoned God's powerful plan...but then she wouldn't be there "for such a time as this"! She waited a long time for God's perfect timing and setting. She treated the king with the utmost respect, and look what God did! He turned the seemingly hopeless situation into a blessing of hope on the lives of many, by her obedience...So, a good resource is one you probably already have! Also, I found comfort in Oswald Chamber's insight ("My Utmost for His Highest")--"Never consider whether you are of use; but ever consider that you are not your own but His." also consider, "the need is never the call: the need is the opportunity." (that one's hard for me to swallow many times!)

Dear Donna,

I know your pain all too well. I have been in Church Leadership positions for almost 30 years. My advice to you Donna is “to get on your face before God” and ask Him for divine instructions. If the Lord gave you this Vision in deed, He will see to it that it is carried out. “Thou it tarry, wait for it”. The Vision may be for another time and/or another place however, it will come to completion as long as you endure with great faith. First. Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth and understanding. You will discover many truths concerning your Church’s foundational belief, the Elders and their stand as far as women leaders. You will be enlightened to shortcomings, weaknesses and insecurities in others as well as in your own life. Believe me, it will be an intimate “journey” with the Lord. Cling to Him like a little lamb clings to a Shepherd. Have a teachable spirit and follow intensely with opened ears. If your heart is broken, you are in the perfect place to be “molded”. The Lord can disciple a person with a broken heart and contrite spirit. Humble yourself before the Lord and He will lift you up. If you find yourself with broken legs, leaning on the Shepherds shoulder and wrapped endearingly around His neck, know you are in a very intimate place. When your healing comes and your legs are strong and secure, you will find that your safest place is walking in the Great Shepherd’s steps close to His side in the path of His will. Love will be your quest, while learning how to “relate” to others intimately. Second. Your gifts were given to you for the purpose of carrying out His plan. Administration is a high calling. There are many details that must be tended to, to carry out a God-given mission while fulfilling a God-given Vision. The mark of our high calling however is to become more like Christ along the way. “Christ in us the hope of glory” is the only hope we have to “shine” before others. This situation is the perfect opportunity to be Christ-like to the Elders and demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit in Gal. 5., with the Lord’s help of course. Third. Know this is all a part of your spiritual and natural equipping that you will so desperately need to accomplish all that encompasses the Vision that the Lord has entrusted you with. Be flexible and willing to embrace change if necessary.

My heart breaking, “desperately needing Christ journey” lead my husband and I to be the founders of a Network for Christian leaders.

Though the Vision Tarry, wait for it!

Enjoy the Journey,
May blessings unfold along the way,
Cindy L. Hartline
Founder
CLA Network

(1) Sin exists.
(2) People sin, believers or not. As such, their hearts may have some growing to do.
(3) If God calls you to something, do it. Your obedience is to him not people. Use Scripture as your guide.
(4) Work closely with those who support you and keep a friendly distance from those who don't.
(4) Pray.

Donna, When God gives you a passion He will also give you a way for it to be carried out. Go where God is moving and then move with Him. Sometimes it is hard to resurrect people that may be dead in Spirit so find somewhere that the people are alive and willing to listen. We can't make decisions for others we need to only do God's work. Email me and I will give you encouragement to take the passion God has certainly given you and take it where people are already open to it rather than people with a hardened heart. I don't think this is a male/female thing I think it is a Spiritual thing.

Donna:

I've seen this sort of thing over and over and over, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

As I see it, you have one of two choices here:

1) Hang in there, keep working, praying, and communicating, asking God to either open the elders' hearts and minds or change yours;

- or -

2) Leave. Maybe God wants you to move on and find another fellowship that is more open and responsive to the vision and passion He has given you.

Follow God's leading wherever thru whatever doors He opens. Bottom line is just like the hymn: "trust and obey."