Amy, I think your perspective is so true and many women will relate to you on at least one level. I personally like to attend those home parties, and I like to throw a party myself now and then. But more often, I like to throw "parties" where my ladies just have to show up. All the work's been done for them. They appreciate that there's no obligation due from them. As a pastor's spouse, I sometimes feel desperately lonely and spiritually dry and I'm constantly seeking a place of retreat that's also a place of safety for my personal needs. I haven't found this place yet, in my searching. A lot of meetings are scheduled in the day time, while I'm working, and I already sacrifice more than half of my vacation days to devote to church events and work. I don't want to miss more days to retreat...And I do feel that by trying to be frilly and girly and keeping things light and fun that we miss out on a huge part of who God is (or should be to us). The most recent retreat I attended devoted more effort to gifts & trinkets than they did to true worship, games & silliness than sincerity and lifting up the father. I may have had fun, but I didn't learn much, if anything, and I didn't leave with a renewed spiritual fire, which is disappointing and frustrating. I've even experienced this at events for clergy spouses. If any women should know how to be serious and take moments apart with each other to be honest and real, I thought they would, but again I was seemingly the only one present who cared more about the message from the speaker than anything else at the event. They actually sang songs where you had to clap and do hand motions with your neighbor (groan)! I'd love to see your thoughts for alternative means for women to "do" ministry together. I'd like to see straight forward, no frills, women's ministry take off.

I agree 100%! (I'm a stay-at-home, homeschooling mom and it all bugs me just the same.) Have you seen this article by Frederica Mathewes-Green?

http://www.frederica.com/writings/the-problem-with-womens-ministries.html

Wow, I thought for a moment I was reading something that I had written myself. Thanks so much for this article Amy--it was refreshing and a relief to hear another woman say things that I have felt for years. I never fit in with the women's groups for reasons that you yourself felt. It was always the same topics kids, housework, crafts and the other usual stuff. I would be sitting there wondering "Can't we talk about something else--like work issues and car repair. Made me want to run out and start working on my car.
The only group I fit in with was a working women's Bible study held on a Sat. morning once a month appropriately titled "Women in the Workplace. We sure got some serious Bible study done there, which I appreciated because I was in seminary working toward my M.Div. and had no use for the typical women's group fluff.
You are right. In many churches they still try to push the June Cleaver prototype on women as the "biblical" model. And as a result, programs for women are "shallow, one-dimensional programs that miss important opportunities to minister to many women."

I'm for no frills women's ministry! I have abstained from the retreats, the tea parties, the fashion shows, and the craft fairs because I'm not the frilly type nor do I enjoy the silly games. I used to think women couldn't possibly like those events. But after leading a women's ministry for a time, I found out (to my total surprise)that many women really do enjoy them and, what's more, God uses those frilly functions to minister to women who are completely different from me - and every bit as important to God.
I have had the opportunity recently to participate in an area retreat for women leaders. What an exciting difference! Stimulating workshop topics, reverent worship, serious conversations, and practical tools and resources to help women lead effectively.
I'm thrilled to see a wider offering of opportunities for all kinds of Christ- loving women with a variety of lifestyles and needs. No doubt women's ministries will continue to evolve as God works in the hearts of the ever increasing numbers of women ministry leaders around the world.

I almost got defensive there for a minute. I used to be one of those home party ladies. I'm not now.

Let me just say Amen. I can hardly stand anything "women ministry" related. I feel like I'm from another planet and wonder if it's just me. At least now I can see I'm not alone.

Amen! I'm a pastor's wife, so there is an underlying assumption that I will be involved with the women's ministry. But I feel much the same way you do about their events (and of course, that feeling is unacceptable). I am finding that in most churches, "women's ministry" events tend to lack "spiritual meat." And they're things I'm just simply not interested in (like a "ladies' tea"). I'd much rather spend my time studying a passage of scripture and discussing it than making a notebook or card.

I suppose I dislike the assumption as well that their definition of Christian woman fits me. I recently had a discussion with another pastor's wife about expectations placed on us by the church. She said, "I don't understand all this pressure you're talking about...I get none of that." I didn't understand why at first, but after reading your article, I wonder if it's because she fits this mold, and I do not.

Thanks for speaking up!

I hate those parties too. It is always a relief if I am truly busy and cannot attend.

Regarding women's ministry events, I must say that Women of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has been a ministry of encouragement that does not assume that we are all stay at home moms. The Purpose Statement says it all:

As a community of women created in the image of God,
called to discipleship in Jesus Christ, and
empowered by the Holy Spirit,
We commit ourselves to
grow in faith,
affirm our gifts,
support one another in our callings,
engage in ministry and action, and
promote healing and wholeness
in the church, the society, and
the world.

Peace.

THANK YOU Amy for speaking TRUTH...I can't even tell you how alienated I feel in my church because I don't enjoy superficial ministry to women. My heart is discipleship and a constant diet of this type of thing just stunts the growth of all the women in the Church. They are even calling themselves "Girlfriends"...it's sickening to think that as women, that's all we are worth. While they do "Bible Study", it is a superfluous book that keeps each woman learning the basics of the Christian life repeatedly. This type of ministry has taken over our church. I am having a difficult time staying there. Again...thanks so much for articulating exactly how I feel.

Amy,I agree with you that by and large, our churches are running shallow programs that miss important opportunities to minister to many women.

I've attended two Womens'events in the past year myself and only because I want to somehow connect with the women in the church.

Yet what comes through your blog the most clearly is frustration, if not anger, and discomfort.

And Linda too says that she feels that by trying to be frilly and girly and keeping things light and fun that we miss out on a huge part of who God is (or should be to us.

Where's the anger coming from?

A lot of women aren't trying to be frilly and girly but are expressing who they are?

How does being frilly and girly have anything to do with our relationship with God. What can have a huge impact on our relationship with God is whether or not we are comfortable in our own skin and are expressing more of our true self each day. Because, if we aren't being authentic then we aren't experiencing intimacy with God or anyone else.

Again, though, I share your concerns for Womens' Ministry. I became a Christian as a young mother and have always had a love for the word of God. I also enjoyed the light and fun times, partly because as a busy mom of young children I loved being catered to and entertained once in awhile. Now that I'm older and my family is older I want to discuss deeper issues and have deeper conversations with other women; the surface stuff just doesn't do it for me anymore.

I would like to see more options in Womens' Ministry. Just one idea are Special Interest
small groups. I for one would find it very satisfying to belong to a small group of women who say want to read and discuss Christian issues. Of course I wouldn't be reading Christianity Today's articles if I weren't interested in "current events" and the Christian perspective. And some Christian books have been invaluable to me and my personal growth. That's another type group that could meet.

Amy,

Thank you so much for this article. I'm a young graduate student, and many of my friends and I feel exactly the way you described--alienated. Of course stay-at-home moms who enjoy candle parties should be served and loved, but not at the expense of the majority of women who find rejuvination and blessing in other areas.

These friends and family members are bright, committed Christians, but most (including me) are tempted to write off women's ministries completely because these church activities do indeed seem to be a waste of time. The assumptions about what evangelical women want and who we are must continue to be challenged. After all, nobody assumes that all churchgoing men would love to go hunting or that a weekly basketball ministry could fit every man in a congregation. Yet, becaues I scorn basket-weaving and don't respond well to tea parties, I have the choice of participating in family ministry (my husband and I have no children), couples ministry (good, but I'd love to connect with other strong women), or crashing a men's ministry (obviously not advisable).

So then, what can be done? How can we minister more fully to the women of our congregations, whether they be rich or poor, educated or uneducated, scrapbook-loving or scrapbook-scorning? Perhaps we need to start by speaking up or planning alternative events for women rather than silently avoiding the commonly planned events. I'd love to hear other suggestions.

Ok, While I agree that most women's ministries are geared for women who do not work and have children and are yes somewhat "fluffy", I do feel that there is a need for women to be uplifted and rejuvenated in Christ. A time to spend with other women who have the same beliefs and values. For all of you who do not like the cookie cutter ministries for women that are out there now, what do you suggest, what would you like to see?

I sympathize with the sentiments expressed in this article, but I find it unfortunate that once again, in both the article and the responses, working women are pitted against stay at home moms. I have been on both sides and am currently in a category that few are in: part-time-career-work-from-home-professional-full-time-home-schooling-fairly-lousy-housekeeper-mom. I don't fit in with stay at home moms because I work, and I don't fit in with working mom's because I stay home a fair amount, and I can't join the home school groups because I also work. If a special study group at my church was formed for those like me, I think it would have only one participant.

Really shows how silly it is for women who are Christ followers to create artificial barriers between ourselves. I am not a crafter nor particularly fond of home parties, but I always try to use any opportunities like those to fellowship and appreciate other Christian ladies for who they are. I truly find enjoyment through seeing their enjoyment and have come to appreciate some of the fine skills and talents they demonstrate in those settings (most of which I do not have). I can manipulate a database and give a persuasive presentation fairly well, but I'm a pretty lousy homemaker. I certainly appreciate ladies who have those God-give skills (not to mention that I can always learn something from them). Hopefully, at a minimum I provide some support and encouragement to them.

I seek out exegetical and serious study whenever possible because I enjoy it and because it’s “my bag”. It doesn’t make me superior, just different. I have noticed that those ladies who don't feel as confident in this type of study often express appreciation to those of us who provide content and context because it is one of our strengths. Why? I assume it is because they enjoy having fellowship with me in settings where my God-given strengths come through a bit more and they are in learning mode (as I am in “their” setting). I certainly know their kind comments and attendance provide support and encouragement to me.

Not wanting to be judgmental or sound sanctimonious here, but the article and responses sure seem to be missing the point: The Bible clearly tells us we will have differences, but we are all called to love one another and encourage and support each another – working moms, mature ladies, students, singles, stay at home moms and those of us who don’t fit into any category at all! Personally, I get discouraged by the tendency of today’s modern American church to group people together based on their common interests, age and lifestyle. I feel we miss out on a great deal of richness and diversity in the Body by doing this. So, as the title of the article says, don’t “do Women’s Ministry”, but do form relationships with those in the Body who are not like you. Perhaps true spiritual growth comes not from what type of activities and studies we participate in, but in the Godly relationships we form with all types of Christ followers – those like us and those not so much like us.

I agree with you for the most part.

"I don't do parties" is my answer when asked to a party. I had to laugh, the last one that said they sell cleaning products and all you use is water.

I went to a party after moving to a new town, my motive - to make friends. The motive of the party, however, was sales. I didn't get to know anyone & went home $20 poorer and in tears.

Another time I went to socialize and thought I had set some personal boundaries intending to replenish my $6.99 candles. But...I was the only one to show up aside from the hostess. I tossed & turned and eventually threw in another $30 for some crystal holders (now, 5 years later, chipped & cracked).

I analyze the purpose of every event I go to to make sure it is a valid use of time and my motives meet up with theirs.

Courtney, Life Purpose Coaching Centers has consultants that can help a Women's Ministry develop Life Purpose Tracks. This is something that can give dimension to a women's ministry as women begin open dialogue on real life issues. As walls come down in small groups of vulnerable women, women find the kind of support and sisterhood they are in search of.

This program helps women find their niche and releases them for the unique work God is calling each of them to do.

I, too, do not fit the mold of traditional women's ministries. I would encourage all of you who feel the same to start your own group that does fit you. It does not need to be a formal part of church hierarchy to start. We did this in my church, starting with just a couple women who wanted to study a certain book. This became a Monday night Bible study. There is no leader - we pick a study as a group, and try to cover a chapter each week. The more mature Christians in the group assist those who are less familiar with the faith, and occasionally we ask the pastor for further background on something. It's a simple thing, and has given a number of women a venue that really fits them. I encourage you to take your disappointment with Women's Ministries, and make a difference!

Who are you women? I LOVE YOU!

In the first 20 or so years of my 27 years of church "involvement," women's events used to promote a deeper relationship to God via, believe it or not, Bible teaching. Somehow the last decade or so has seen Bible verses replaced by manicures, and committed prayer time replaced by all-night game playing.

The irony of it all, is the women DO desire the richness that comes from "getting deep" with other women. I believe it really does refresh our souls and recharge our batteries. Yet, women today think they want to escape the mundane, crazy busy lives they lead, and this type of event will refresh them.

If you ask me, it's an excellent ploy of the enemy. I believe he sits in the back row of many women's retreats, conferences, or whatever they're being called these days, with a smirk firmly planted on his face.

"Lord lead us back, stir the embers in the hearts of leaders that are close to going out. May you renew a spiritual fire in our souls!"

So I'm not the only one who feels like this! It's not too bad in the UK where I live but it's bad enough that any mention of women's ministry sends me running in the opposite direction.

My experience with Women's Ministry is a bit different, in my worship environment where most of the women are working women, so ministry is about personal growth and development and less about "frilly women things." We share in study of the Word and discussion about how the find pratical application. Frankly , the insight and sharing with women of varing ages, ethnicities, education and experiences always leaves me with a renewed sense of connectedness and empowerment. Yes, I hate sales parties, and coffee klaches, but I love sharing in the Word with a bunch of "Sisters."

Hi Amy,
Thank you for your enlightening article. I myself have felt on the "outside" on more than one occasion in my life too. I have recently started a ministry through a "Spa Retreat", obviously, it is a Spa, but that's the least important thing at this retreat. What it is really about is mentoring, fellowship, and finding topics that are pertinent to TODAYS Woman!! We have topics regarding women & money for the average todays woman to topics about "Bringing up your boys in todays world". We have a single mom contest, people send in by e-mail these devoted struggling moms who need a break today,( I raised my kids pretty much on my own), the winner is made to feel like a star for the weekend and we continue to reach out to her specific needs, as every woman is different. We care to ask......and try to find out the needs that need to be reached.
I am happy to read that I am not the only woman in this world who feels the way you do. Every need out there is unique, as every woman God made is unique....why do we feel, especially in the church, that women should be put in one catergory and in a box?
I have had comments from women such as: Thank you for making me feel like a "REAL" woman by choosing topics that pertain to me."
"It was a life changing experience. I came in one woman and left another".
"Thank you for bringing topics that I can use in my every day life, in the world today."
You may check out my site if you choose:
www.creativeprofilessalons.com/sparetreat.html
Linda Husarik

One cool and perhaps atypical "women's ministry" thing our church does is a book club. This group meets for in-depth discussion on great books like Crime and Punishment. They don't do "Christian books" or marriage books or parenting books -- they read good literature. It's not a stereotypical sit-around-and-chat-about-marriage-while-eating-cream-puffs type of ladies' get together -- it's meaningful and engaging discussion.

Wow! I totally relate to the article; and I AM the Women's MInistry Leader at my church! Yikes! As I look around at my own life, and its busyness, I find myself hungry for "life-giving" events. I desperately need to know that I am going to the "well" and going to get filled with whatever mercy I need today. We live in a culture of such busyness that I only have time for things that are going to really impact my life! My frustration, as the leader, is that every time I tried to bring change, or infuse change into our midst, there are always those diehards that want "the same old" programs. I truly believe that women's ministry programs are going to have to go through radical surgery if they are going to continue for the next generation. But I do have hope! I believe God has a remnant of women who are tired of playing church and are ready to stand up! Women's ministry needs a revolution!

I am a true outsider in the group here as I am a guy! But my wife is coordinator of one of the women's ministries at our church so these types of things truly interest me.

I understand the sentiment expressed but found the presentation inflammatory rather than helpful. For those that feel the same as you, the message was fine. For those who don't, I think the would feel both belittled and attacked. My wife is neither frilly nor girly, but she is a stay-at-home mom. I know she would read this and feel that you are putting down what she does.

You can't say "I don’t mean to undermine the importance of women’s ministry, or trivialize the effective ministry that’s happening in many churches," and then go on to do just that. Again, I got what you were trying to say, but your message, as phrased, will appeal to a relatively small percentage of the population--which you were saying was the problem with women's ministries as they are now.

Sorry Amy, but this sounds like whining to me. Your profile says you are committed to serving the church, but this article sounds like you are looking to be served.

What you describe has not been my experience in womens ministries. I have been challenged by intelligent women, grown spiritually through deep Bible studies and been mentored. Sometimes I have had to search, but these types of womens ministries are out there. Sometimes I have had to start them, but then we have a good thing going.

I think you do us a disservice by generalizing womens ministries in this way.

Mark,
Welcome to the other side of the fence. Those of us who identify with Amy, have been as you stated it "belittled and attacked" by the church for years. Bashed is more like it. The percentage of the population who feel as Amy does is not as small as you think. There are many of us and more are now speaking out. If the percentage seems small to you, it is probably due to the numbers of women who have walked away from the church entirely fed up with being treated as second class citizens.

I can't believe it! Finally someone repeating what I felt! I once attended a women's group and was hoping to find bible study and discussions with other women, instead the leader wanted to focus on volunteering activities, most of the session was about what baked goods could be brought for their next gathering. I was extremely disappointed. I quietly asked if it was possible to also include a devotional or perhaps read a book together? Was absolutely surprised to find that ever other woman said thats what they had hoped for in the group. Faith had moved to me speak and I found I was echoing the thoughts of others who were to shy to speak. I moved shortly afterwards and when I revisited the church they were still a volunteer group. Their leadership is neglecting the expressed faith needs of their church to build their volunteer fund raising activities. I am deeply saddened by this devotional based groups are needed more than ever!

Amy,
Your article came across as very harsh and cynical. It seemed to be a put down of those who may enjoy the events you might not enjoy. I think the key here is balance: not to do away with current ministry opportunities, but to expand and reach those with different needs and interests that aren't currently catered to. Sadly, your article also came across as very pouty and victim oriented. Perhaps action is needed to make your church the place that connects to women in your area. There is always the opportunity to visit the ministries of other local churches to get ideas to help create what you're hoping for. I agree with Brenda. It is counterproductive to disrespectfully generalize these "types" of women and the ministry events "they" attend. In doing so, the article has undermined and trivialized a portion of our church population and made the rest of us fear we could be one of "them"! Unfortunatly, the article does more to alienate than unite.

I am truly surprise by how many women are feeling left out in their church's. Because that is what you are saying. A women's ministry is still apart of the church ministry. Women still make up the bulk of the membership so why have you not said anything? I am a Pastor and I am over the women ministry at my church. Sometimes we do have the fluff but there is always a message in it. I just taught a message today on "What is God's vision for your Life". I pray that the women who attended the bible study were able to gleem something from the message and if they were not they would be honest enough to come to me and share what it it they would like to have happen at the bible study. You would be surprised to find out that most would welcome the comments or even the help. It is hard to please everybody and some times the majority wins. Sorry ladies.

Amen, Rev. Carlene. Mark, please hear our hearts! Amy does speak for many more of us than predominantly male church leadership would like to think exists. I think it's wonderful if women are able to find a woman's ministry that is meaningful for them. That's a wonderful experience where deep friendships can be forged. However, my personal experience resounds with that of many who've already responded to Amy. Even though I'm currently in seminary I'm sorry to say that I have given up on women's ministries in my home church. But please hear me - that statement is not made with a critical spirit. Every woman, as every man, is at a different place spiritually. Not everyone craves to go to those deep, disquieting spiritual places that we often finds ourselves in when welong to "go deep" into God. And that's OK... When I was a new Christian, I couldn't handle those deep places, but God was generous by introducing to me to the value of relationships through other women.

I pose the same question as Aundie... so what is the alternative? If we find the women's ministry in our churches vacuous, then how do we become part of the solution and not continue to focus on the problem?

Thank you, thank you so much Amy for broaching this topic. At least I know I'm not alone (but then none of us are ever really alone when we're in the shadow of the Most High, are we?)

Amen, Rev. Carlene. Mark, please hear our hearts! Amy does speak for many more of us than predominantly male church leadership would like to think exists. I think it's wonderful if women are able to find a woman's ministry that is meaningful for them. That's a wonderful experience where deep friendships can be forged. However, my personal experience resounds with that of many who've already responded to Amy. Even though I'm currently in seminary I'm sorry to say that I have given up on women's ministries in my home church. But please hear me - that is not said with a critical spirit. Every woman is at a different place spiritually. Not everyone craves to go to those deep, disquieting spiritual places that we often finds ourselves in when we "go deep" into God. And that's OK... When I was a new Christian, I couldn't handle those deep places, but God was generous by introducing to me to the value of relationships.

I pose the same question as Aundie... so what is the alternative? If we find the women's ministry in our church vacuous, how do we become part of the solution and not continue to focus on the problem?

Thank you, thank you Amy for broaching this topic. At least I know I'm not alone (but then none of us are ever alone when we're in the shadow of the Most High, are we?)

HI Amy, I was so encouraged by your article. God has made us all unique, all with a special purpose in His Body.
I'm not a very emotional, demonstrative person and therefor often get the feeling at women's ministry retreats, meetings, that there is something wrong with me. It is so good to know that it is not only me. I realise that what satisfies my hunger doesn't necessarily satisfy everyone else's. I loved Betsy G's response as I can fully identify with her. May we all, as women, be unified in this 'that Jesus is our Lord ' and that we should serve Him with the diversity of gifts that He has bestowed upon us by the Holy Spirit so that His body can be built up in love. September 1, is the beginning of Spring in South Africa andmy prayer is for a new season of growth in your inner man. May you be grounded in the Word of God,fed and watered with His Holy Spirit and may the fruit in your life feed those you come into contact with.

I understand that many ministries are not your style and boy I really understand that many are geared towards stay-at-home-moms. Not all are and I feel if you label them all as such, you are missing out on a great blessing. I attend a women's ministry that is set up for stay-at-home-moms and meets our very special needs in a non-home party manner. (smile interjected here) To some it might seem fluffy, but it meets a lot of needs we have.

However, after reading your article I was left with one lingering question. It's still lingering days later, so I will ask it. "So what are you doing about it?" You have been given an insight into an area that is lacking. Are you ignoring it and just pointing out the faults? OR, have you taken the next step and approached your church leaders with a plan to implement a program, or a series of programs, that will benefit women that have the same needs as you?

Wow, your article smacked of condescension! You resent the assumptions made by women's ministries in place at your church, but you painted a picture of the women who attend them using the same broad strokes.

There's a place in every church for ministries that fit different needs. If you feel yours aren't being met, approach your church leadership and promote the kind of fellowship you think is being overlooked. If you have time to attend parties and Bible Studies you dismiss as fluff, then use that time to start or volunteer as a leader in one that suits you better.

If you want to grow in your faith and be challenged, consider attending Bible Study Fellowship.

Sometimes when I'm feeling as uncomfortable as you apparently feel, it's God's way of nudging me in a new direction. Pray and ask Him to help you understand what He wants you to do. Take those questions from your final paragraph and use them as a starting place for launching your own ministry, one that will reach other women like you. Instead of being part of your church's perceived spiritual problem, become part of the resolution. Maybe you just need to find another church where you fit better.

I guess I'm having some trouble understanding your attitude.

Amy,

The strong responses to your post seem to confirm the fact that you’ve hit an important nerve and that we all need to be rethinking what we're doing in the church with women's ministry.

Perhaps the questions we should be asking have less to do with "Am I comfortable with teas, parties, crafts, and the like?" or "Does women's ministry at my church fit me and my life circumstances?" and more with "Are we truly equipping women to walk with and serve God wherever and however He deploys them?” and “Who are we overlooking in the ministries we conduct for women?” The first set of questions tends to divide us into two warring camps, when we need to be supporting one another. The second set of questions takes every woman seriously and turns our focus to the deeper issues that matter to all of us.

None of us (not even those deeply invested in and blessed by women’s ministries) need to fear the healthy and helpful exercise of taking an honest look at ourselves and our ministries and striving to strengthen (or even overhaul) what we’re doing. We should all be deeply concerned about the spiritual malnutrition of any Christian—man, woman or child—and take seriously our own responsibility to do something about it. Whether we’re at home, in the workplace, or a combination of the two, whether we’re facing a crisis for ourselves or coming alongside someone else, we're at risk and so are others who count on us if we head into battle unarmed or poorly equipped.

I pray this discussion continues beyond the confines of this blog. There’s a lot at stake.

Interesting thoughts. Women in today's churches are a diverse group. I believe we need to come together for growth and encouragement regardless of our background. Sahm, working mom, retired, single, frills or no frills...there is so much we can learn from one another.

It is obvious from your article that you are frustrated. You articulated your frustration, but stopped short of offering suggestions for change. I guess I would second Courtney by asking what can be done? What does ministry to women look like to you?

I totally identified with this article.

Years ago, I was single and in my late 20's and served in my home church for the summer between my studies at a Christian university. One Sunday morning, the pastor approached me shortly before the service. I was carrying a number of mics and mic cables, and was clearly in a rush, but he stopped me to ask if I was helping in the Nursery. I said, "No. I'm your soundguy!"

Even since completing my degree in Religious Education and marrying, my interests (music, computers, photography, interior design, blogging) and our inability (so far) to have children has meant my church's women's events are completely pointless to me. Though geared at my age-group, it is so narrowly defined for "stay-at-home moms with small children who love crafts and flowers" that I can't even imagine wanting to get to know the women who attend.

What about the men? My husband also feels shut out of most church's men's ministries since all those groups/classes are geared towards divorcees or addicts.

What is the traditional womens 'mould'?

Maybe we (frill-free, pink-free) are the new 'trad' women? {In my view we look more like Prov 31 woman than 1960s styled mothers].

I could be described as a stay-at-home mother, a homeschooling mother, a Christian - yet starting a family later than most, I too have nearly 20 years as a professional [before children]. I tend to veer away from womens ministry gatherings - never seem to quite get the courage to go. Maybe there's something I'm running away from?? Maybe it's because my contemporaries are in a vastly different stage of life, whilst my children's friends are 10-20 years younger than me.
But I do know that I'd like some close Christian friends - the kind that think - on the Bible and the issues of life, have an opinion, can live without continual consensus.
I do a mass of volunteer work - mainly writing, networking, mentoring - for MOPS (Mothers of Preschoolers) and Home Education network. This, with raising my 2x under 10s, is all my work.

To do a craft out 'with the girls' and finish it is an encouraging achievement when there's littlies underfoot. But creativity (an important corner of any woman's soul) is more than this. I get a thrill to see another article published.

It's not them-and-us cos I don't think the line-in-the-sand is so clear anymore with businesses being run from home and many other options between SAH and 'working' mothers. Who is them and who is us?
Variety is the key.

Womens' Ministries could involve:
basic Greek lessons; parables and storytelling [the stuff of Jesus' ministry]; card games like 500, Hearts Uno, or Canasta; Developing a Theology and Practice of Failure [good modelling for our chn]; How to Best to Follow Christ in our own Context; All the Mod-Cons [keeping up with Web2 and all the new gadgets].
If we don't want what is offered, I wonder what it is that we do want? or are we too tired and overworked to stop to think about ways of connecting on a personal level with others?

I'm finding to ask 1 or 3 women to my home [with or without their families] to be something that I can cope with - at night time or on the weekend. But finding a time that suits people tricky.
Are we leaving spaces for people - in our schedules? This takes some very conscious thinking and rearrangements with those we share our lives with ...
Shalom,

Amy, boy would I like to talk to you. Your article rings true for me and the comments intrigue me. My pastor recently asked me to help with the women’s events at our church. I cautiously agreed and am exploring ideas/plans of changing the way things are done.

One pet peeve … I have never liked the term women's ministry ... to me it sounds like women are in need of special help/ministry. Yes, I know all humans need help/ministry, but putting the gender in front implies that the gender is the reason.

God’s truths are the same for all humans, but the differences between the genders gives validity to having things just for women (or just for men). But, we need to recognize that we each lead different lives and none is not better than another, rather we need to celebrate each one by offering women's events that meet those different lifestyles.

The comments show that there are enough of us saying “enough.” I like that ... it means things should be changing.

Wow!! Sister girlfriends are we truly talking about bettering our relationship with our Lord and strengthening the body of Christ? To say one area of ministry doesn't fit and then commit to finding a solution would be a reasonable and intelligent way to continue this debate. But the overall flavor of this thread reads pretty brutal and judgemental to those who are not working for a paycheck. If you are dissatisfied with what is offered by WM and are smart enough to hold down a job and contribute to this thread, then you are more than intelligent and motivated enough to add a branch onto WM that would meet not only your needs but most likely many other women like you! I say move forward! Remember we all have different spiritual pathways and because some ladies enjoy to interact on a more what some have called a fluffy girly way does not mean their love for Christ is any less real than yours. Or that the Holy Spirit is less tangible for them then say a woman in a hard core precepts class. We need to keep unified as women living as examples of a body in love with our Lord. As a woman who has worked at home and outside the home and a woman who loves the girly girl stuff as well as hard core precept classes complete with word studies and long passionate prayer sessions with God and other sisters, I would encourage you to move past what doesn't work for you and share with each other ideas and programs that have uplifted you. Diversity of programs in a church is key, but it needs someone to see the need and spearhead a change. Share with each other plans you would like to implement in WM. Love and accept each other(fluffy, serious, w/ and with out kids, working in the home or out of the home, divorced, widowed, single, married, younger or older) as Christ has love and accepted you! Remember, the programs you express such a distaste for were started by women who saw a need to connect and worship God with other women in that capacity. That is why they are still around and are successful. So now you go out and do the same! I look forward to hearing your ideas!!

Those who posted comments chastising Amy for belittling stay-at-home moms didn't read the article very well. She never said anything negative about other people's lifestyle choices, she said she couldn't relate to some forms of ministry.
This scenario happened to me last week: I was attending a new church. In Sunday School, the group was studying I John and the topic of confession. I asked how confession relates to our spiritual maturity, and whether this was or was not the "golden ticket" to genuine, vibrant spirituality as the book suggested. The women in the group all latched on to the one "feelings" comment I made, even though it was NOT the point of my question. The men understood my question and dialogued about the real topic, not the "warm fuzzies" the women immediately gravitated toward.
I, too, feel like an outsider or like I don't fit, because I'm not into the frilly girlfriends thing. I'm so lonelyI really struggle at the candle party/manicure events to feel like there is anything of spiritual value going on. Betsy had a good point about building relationships regardless, but let's put the shoe on the other foot. Would the manicure ladies feel like they could really bond with me if they attended a seminar on American post-modern literature? How about a session where we all work on someone's car together? Are they going to feel comfortable and like this event helped them grow spiritually, or will they feel completely uncomfortable, standing around on the fringes?

I generally agree, but I also have to say that one reason I cancelled my subscription years ago to Today's Christian Woman is the very dynamic you describe. Reading that magazine made me feel like somehow I wasn't "today" or "christian" because I'm not a Caucasian, married, stay at home mother who drives carpool and lives to shuttle my children from event to event.

But I'll also say that after I cancelled my subscription, I realized that even though I felt alienated, there must be women out there to whom the magazine ministers, and that's ok. We have so much diversity in our girl part of the kingdom--biker chicks, hard-driving career women, brainy scholars and theologians, jock-ettes, free spirits, artsy ladies, and the list goes on. I love 'em all! We all have something to give, something to learn, someone to love. I feel more akin to the brainy group (not bragging, just assessing), but I'd sure love to hook up with some of my biker chick sisters and take a ride on the wild-for-God side! God is infinitely creative, and I believe He has a way for us all to be ministered to, so let's ask Him, in honesty and humility, and let's listen for His answer.

Mark,

I really commend your interest in this, but I have to agree with Rev. Carlene. The whole point of this writing is that those of us who identify with it are not, in fact, "a small percentage of the population." I can say confidently that it has nothing to do with being (or belittling) stay-at-home moms, since I am one, and this describes my experience with women's ministry as though I had written it myself. I, too, always thought that it was just me--I wasn't like other women, I didn't fit the mold of Christian womanhood, I was a square peg in a round hole. So I kept quiet. It took me 15 years to gain some relationships in which I felt secure enough to fully verbalize my feelings, only to find that this experience was shared by almost every woman I know. And posts like Amy's are badly needed if other women are to be spared from my experience of being 35 years old before learning that I was not some type of mutant non-woman, but that it's actually normal for healthy, intelligent Christian women to want more, think more, and do more.

I truly appreciate your interest in women's issues and your willingness to post here. Many Christian men could also benefit from hearing that not all ladies have interests confined to shopping and salads, and I think some of them would be genuinely surprised. :) I believe that some of the relentless planning of women's events like the ones described above is reinforced by the belief of men that "most" women, rather than an intellectually rigorous Bible study, scientific lecture, open forum on faith and culture, physically demanding service project, or even a day of rock-climbing, would actually prefer a frilly breakfast meeting (our Women's Ministry used to call it the Mug 'N Muffin) with a light devotion related to housework. Thanks for reading, and please come back. Read some more and pass it on. Bring it up with your friends and their wives. (Especially your own wife, who is in an influential position here.) Help is welcome in the effort to stretch us, strengthen us, challenge us, and above all, let us out of the box!

Amy
I appreciate your honesty about your frustration with women's ministries. But I am sorry to hear that you equivilate women's ministries with mulitilevel marketing parties and shallow stay at home moms. (I don't believe stay at home moms are shallow.) I am currently a stay at home mom, but don't fit the "box" in my own ways. I love science, moose hunting, and traveling, but I still don't disdain tea parties. We all have our own ideas of what the church "box" woman is, and none of us feel like "it."
A good women's ministry has social activities to allow time to develop friendships and encourages women to develop friendships with people from all different walks of life. It also provides time for in depth Bible study - perhaps an evening in home study that really requires homework and time in your Bible before you come. Don't be so quick to judge the other women you meet. Just because they aren't just like you, doesn't mean they don't have something to offer. We are all part of one body, working together as many members. Go to a tea party to expand your horizons, then help plan an event more suited to your styles to help expand someone elses. You should find God and a focus on Him and an atmosphere of worship at the heart of any of these events in a healthy women's ministry.
If your church's women's ministry is just a gossip sesion and it isn't focused on growing people to be more of who God wants them to be, you may need to consider helping make some changes or moving to another church. But before you leave, make sure you have a heart to heart with God to ensure that your lack of growth isn't partially related to negative assumptions you've made about the other women in your church and an unwillingness to learn from them because you believe they are different from you. Useful women's ministries require an investment of time in God's Word, prayer and in other women, even those that aren't just like us.

I noticed that in the comments above, many people are saying that Amy and those who identify with her need to come up with other suggestions and solutions, rather than just criticizing the situation as it currently exists. I'd like to point out that just because this isn't mentioned in the post doesn't mean it hasn't been done. Speaking only for myself, I have consistently brought this issue through many different avenues to church leadership, both in women's ministry and in the church at large. I've provided a long list of alternate activities and events on multiple occasions, and made myself available to help with facilitating them. I've also ended up forming my own connections to provide for myself what the women's ministry does not. And I imagine pretty much everyone who agreed above has done the same thing. But eventually the initiative would have to be taken up by church and women's ministry leaders for this type of ministry to women to ever gain ground and be incorporated into the life of the church body. I agree that those who see the need should step up, but it strikes me as unreasonable and hardly inclusive to suggest that "if you don't like our women's ministry, you should just do your own."

Wow—great conversation here! It’s been really interesting and challenging to read. I think I’m going to do a follow-up post that will (hopefully) generate some ideas for how we might make women’s ministries more effective.

But in the meantime, let me clarify a couple of things.

First, I wrote this post primarily about my own experience. Obviously I’m not the only one who has experienced the things I wrote about, so I suspect such experiences are widespread. But please remember that I wasn’t writing an in-depth thesis on what is offered in every single women’s ministry program. I was writing about what I have experienced.

Let me also clarify that I never criticized stay-at-home moms. As Kerrissa said in her comment, “Those who posted comments chastising Amy for belittling stay-at-home moms didn't read the article very well. She never said anything negative about other people's lifestyle choices, she said she couldn't relate to some forms of ministry.”

I mentioned stay-at-home moms because in my experience, most women’s ministry is geared toward them and I’m not a stay-at-home mom. Churches who assume that all women are available for a Bible study at 10:00 on Tuesday morning are automatically alienating those of us who aren’t. I have no problem with those women who are. I simply believe that if most churches are assuming that women stay at home full time, they’re missing out on ministering to most women. And many women who stay at home part time also work and fulfill other demands on their time. We need to expand our definition of what Christlike women do with their lives—-not bash each other for following our calling.

Many of you have asked for ideas, ways we might do women’s ministry differently to appeal to wider audience of women. As I mentioned, I hope to do a future post on this topic. And I hope it will start another great conversation. But here are a few brushstrokes for starters:

1. Recognize that women are not all the same.
2. Respect women’s intellectual abilities.
3. Recognize that women are not just wives and mothers, and they aren't required to fill these roles in order to see God's purpose for their lives.
4. Make it safe to talk about real life.
5. Affirm real women. We should not walk out feeling worse about our potential in Christ than we did when we walked in.
6. Challenge women. Besides the nursery, women's ministry feels like the only place where many of our ministries seem designed only to make us comfortable.

Watch for more in a post later this month.

Whether stay-at-home mom,or a professional in the workplace, each of us needs the ministry of the Word, coupled with solid friendships, which are the hands of Christ, to help us through the really rough times. I've been in both camps, and currently am still in another. I now am a working professional, who is a widow, and I don't fit the other two molds either.

However, I'm working on affirming who I am in Christ and relying on His affirmation of my worth and value, rather than the affirmation and applause of men. In all candor, it's a struggle.

I've always had, as my mother used to say, a head on my shoulders, a good mind that enjoys stimulating conversation (I often prefer talking with men as opposed to women because I've bored to tears talking about diapers and recipes), as well as drive to pursue excellence in all that I do -- hopefully for the right reason -- to serve Christ. But -- this knowing myself, and what and why I believe has come at a price. The price is frequently being alone. Thank God for His promise that He will never leave me.

Interesting dialog from all. Seems to me that what we are all saying is that women are all unique, and to try to pigeonhole any or all leads to discouragement and dissention. That's why, in my view, making serious bible study a central focus engages women of every interest and challenges each to grow more like Jesus; not like one another. Parachurch ministries for women have figured this out and I believe the church is moving in this direction. Let's keep talking. Gwynne

Thanks to each of you for expressing your hearts. The Lord's heart is that each of you would be blessed and be a blessing to other women in your local body. To me, that is the question every church leader should be asking-how are we blessing and releasing the women (all of them in all stages). Quite honestly, the most overlooked is the 50 plus woman-now the largest growing population of women in the church. On a personal note, after two decades of working in women's ministries, I have made some personal committments to do the following: never particpate in any discussions creating divisemenss or building walls between women-that includes the stay at home/ working women, the artistic/intelluctual, young/old, leader/partipant etc. However, I do feel free to point out where those walls ARE being built-such as when women's ministries are only held during the day, any group is neglected, and honor only given to a select group (such as mothers' day-now that is a whole other post which could crash the Internet-has your church had a day when they "honored" all the women who didn't have children-I didn't think so!)

Wow! This is a hot topic. Amy and all, I tend to agree with you re: Women's Ministries in the Church. I too dislike the shallowness of the events. Of course, so much of the Churches events are the same, lacking in depth and genuine love for each other. Instead we make effort to razzle, dazzle each other and hide the inside person lest anyone know we are not the totally happy, in control, perfect wife with a perfect husband. It all seems to me like little girls,about 13 years old, at a tea party. Now you may feel offended by my analogy, but would those who "do" women's ministries please wake up; most of us have had to become battle hardened by resisting the storms of adversity and by supporting families either alone or with a husband. We want meat and bread experiences, not what seems like little girls play time. I do think that the Church's overall teaching that women are not to be taken too seriously and cannot have any place of authority, except in the Nursery and Children's Ministry, has a lot to do with how the women of the Church view themselves.

Unfortunately, my experience has affirmed what Ramona states in the last sentence of her post - that overall, the Church's historical teaching about women and "our place" (i.e.: no recognizable authority except in the "Nursery and Children's Ministry) has done a great disservice to us all in the body - men and women alike. That there is so much emotion in this thread is telling of the tension we all live in, much of which has its basis only in cultural and social settings, not actually in the gospel (and I'm including Paul's teachings here).
The other common theme in this thread is that of wishing for a Ministry that "meets our needs". I understand ministry to be something that I do in service of Christ to edify His body and for those "who are perishing". I serve, instead of being served, and in taking my attention off of "me", I have removed one major obstacle to spiritual growth/reformation/regeneration (whatever you want to call it). God then is able to meet my "needs" in many different settings - scrapbooking and soup kitchen alike. That said, equipping is a key responsibility of church leadership and a necessary step in the unification and maturing of the body, accomplished through the use of the gifts each one of us has received from Christ (Eph. 4:11-16), whether "Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female", working or stay at home mom (see Gal. 3:26-28).
So I am encouraged by this conversation, but I encourage us all to read between the lines and stay focused on the larger purpose of ministry, asking always how our efforts and attitudes are serving God's purposes and glorifying Him, and I might add, working with His Grace to make us more Christlike.

Ladies,
WOW, does anyone who is reading this realize if YOU got off YOUR butts and started some of this where we would be? Com on Amy, stop complaining and start doing. If you don't like the "parties", start somthing else. I have yet to see any ministry not appreciate the help and if they are not thrilled--do it anyway. Maybe it's time to stop looking inward and start looking outward. Reach out to a woman at your church who needs it, start your own book club (an excellent idea), start a bible study--the point is for YOU to take the time and for YOU to do something. Has it ever dawned on any of you that God might want you to start something--reach out to someone and not just be a follower??? There are many women out there who feel alone, find another one and make a new friend. Be proactive!! Come on sisters, you are soldiers for the Lord too...after all it's God's opinion that counts!

Yikes! It's a bit shocking to see how many of you immediately assumed that Amy and the others who've had a tough time with women's ministries aren't doing anything to contribute to her church. That's a truly unfair assumption to make.

There must be room for people who love the church to speak honestly about it's faults. The Bible, after all, isn't only filled with encouragement. There are countless examples both in the Old and New Testament in which criticism of the church is poignant -- but still motivated by love for God and God's people.

It's just not fair that sharing one's honest feelings and opinions is automatically labeled by some as whining and complaining. And it's not right to assume that the women posting their thoughts and frustrations here aren't "doing" anything to minister in their local church.

I can't help but wonder if the real problem with "Women's Ministries" is just that... "Women's".
It seems, to me, that many churches have tried so hard to create appealing programs for each and every demographic, segregating the groups so no one bumps into anyone who is too different(and therefore might cause discomfort) that needed ministry gets lost.

As with many who have responded to this thread, I too spent years trying to fit in, often at the expense of my true gifts and passions.
I just couldn't find a church with a group for "Tattoed, pierced, grain-grinding, bread-baking, wine-drinking, beer-brewing, day-time stay at home, working full time nights as a industrial machine operator, minivan-driving mom of three public schooled children"

I did find that the lonely, the homeless, the battered, the searching, the wealthy, the young, the old, the neighbor next door, have taught me more about the heart of God than any study ever could. This is not to say that study is not important. We are instructed to read and commit God's Word to our hearts and minds, so that we know and understand God and we might be equipped for the work He has in store for us. And that work does not discriminate whether you stay at home, work full time, are a poet, an accountant, male or female.

Perhaps by concentrating more on others(both in our churches, and outside)we will find that our differences, though seemingly vast, are insignificant, and ministry can be just that: ministry.

I am thrilled to have found this discussion; it is way overdue. From my talks with women over the years I have found that many feel like Amy but few speak up thinking they are alone in their concerns. More and more women are crying out silently for depth and connection and purpose but have not been able to find it in the current trend of WM.

Feeling the same way, I have wanted to help and, so, I prepared myself by going to seminary, teaching classes, and working as a counselor and now a life coach in order to assist women in becoming strong, healthy, passion-filled lovers of Christ and His world. Working with women over the years they have been able to connect and talk about their lives and how to live them before Christ even when it is difficult and we have studied whatever was needed for transformation: Scripture, theology, healing, boundaries, relationships, etc. etc.

I am designing a web site (www.downrightdaringwomen.com) that will have a forum for discussion. It should be up and running this month. I am hoping to provide a place for us to discuss issues such as WM and what we can do about it as well as provide a place for deep connection and mutual growth.

I think getting this out in the open is the first step. Everyone needs to be heard and then we can start to work on how to become an intentional community of women, free in Christ, and impacting our world for Him with all that He designed us to be.

As a paid staff WM Director of a church of over 2500, I found this post very interesting. While it is becoming more apparent that there is a need to branch out to meet the needs of more women in Amy's catagory, the reality is, women vote with their feet and we get more women to participate in traditional WM activities. While we do offer large "Events" (teas, conferences) we use them as the outreach portion of our ministry (invite your neighbors, co-workers, unchurched friends, etc.) Clearly, we reach hundreds all at once with this strategy. While we do have fun, often silly stuff, we always also include a speaker or message with spiritual purpose and action steps for those in attendance. We also get to have women with leadership gifts use them for the Lord in these type events. The spiritual formation portion of our ministry consists of one-on-one discipleship (spiritual coaching), Bible Studies offered both during the day and evening, prayer groups (both day and evening). We also cater to young moms and book reading women. Sadly, however, "girly, pampering events" draw many, many more women than our weekly, on-going deeper attempts to minister to women's spiritual needs. And, our daytime studies are much more well attended than our evening ones (geared for the working women, of course). We have weekend affinity groups that allow crafty women to use their creative spiritual gifts for the Lord, respite care, meal ministry, bulletin stuffing groups that allow those with the gift of service to be used, and the traditional missions emphasis (they have their own department so it doesn't fit under WM.) I, myself, know exactly how you feel and never even attended one of these "events" until asked to coordinate it! I'm looking for answers too...I'll be looking forward to the follow-up post for some suggestions on what all of you women who don't fit into traditional WM would like to see in your churches. I'm listening!

Very interesting. I didn't have time to read all the responses (there were so many!), but I often thought I was alone in feeling a little out of place at some of the Women's Ministry events. Apparently not! I have a degree in engineering, so that puts me in a predominantly man's world. On top of that, I'm in charge of the building committee at church (which is all men) and I don't have any children.

I think the key is there are many woman out there with many different perspectives. Even working moms depending on their work can bring different points of view to the table. If you can get into a true bible study with women of different backgrounds, you can often learn quite a bit about yourself.

If the current womens ministies at your church don't interest you, then ask if you can start one that you are interested in. I'm sure there are others out there that will join you. As women leaders, it is our responsibility to show the girls in our church that there are options. God can lead women in many different directions to serve just as He does with men.

What exciting postings! After being a stay-at-home mom, and later a career woman, I’ve recently had the privilege of leading women’s conferences. Our gatherings feature the stories of the attendees—not only salvation testimonies, but stories of their lives and experiences with God, stories of joy and laughter, faith and trials—the kind of stories that will get passed on to other generations. Real live people, authentic conversation that will stir other women to later seek out a Bible study where they can learn more about knowing Christ in a personal way. “Are you on a first-name basis with Jesus yet?” I might ask the group. If not, just listen to these women and you will understand why you need to be! Real questions: “What keeps you up at night? Your job? A failing relationship? Finances? A crying baby? Aches and pains? Prayer?” “What does hope look like in your life? What are you hoping for within the next year?” Listen to these women talk about their reasons for hope. After a conference we go home with a renewed desire to increase our study of the Word, our daily reliance on the Holy Spirit, and our connection with other women. Small group Bible studies inevitably evolve out of these retreats. Women take the lead in discipling other women, as new believers want to become more involved. The local church may be the starting place, but I’ve found women’s ministry to be the most affirming, encouraging, stimulating and practical place of community, service and discipleship.

Yep. Could have been written by me. Been to plenty of those parties out of obligation to someone else. Best way to avoid buying something without the guilt: leave all forms of visible payment at home or locked in the trunk - no wallet, no purse. But I'm still a tomboy and can get by that way.

For those who keep demanding that Amy start her own ministry and quit whining, who's to say she hasn't? (And why do we always have to do things ourselves, ladies? Why can't someone else take the initiative once and a while? Superwomen burn out quickly.)

Let me offer my own experience. Last year, I volunteered my expertise twice with negative results. The first was in outreach. I attended meetings to help revamp our website, redesign our church logo, and look at who our church was targeted at. One individual had health problems, the (female) leader didn't have good follow up skills, so the team dissolved and never reassembled; my emails weren't returned and I lost interest as no one was keeping me in the loop. A few months later, I was recruited to help plan an emergent-type advent service for the month of December. I was involved in planning services, assisted in programming, designed graphics & advertisements. A week before kick-off, the pastor pulled the plug. The services never happened. No explanation. The church leadership has continually pushed to get people involved and I've understandably been jaded about volunteering since then, established ministry or not.

Women in my church are actively (and primarily) recruited for nursery, VBS, kitchen and hospitality, and children's Sunday school. The only Bible study is held on Tuesday mornings. All activities focus on the pink and frilly side of femininity -- the majority of the woman experience... not that there's anything wrong with that.

The shallowness of "ministry" by the women I've met has left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I just don't enjoy putting Hints from Heloise into practice or learning how to be a better mother as I don't plan on having children... of my own, if ever... or bonding with other wives as I have plenty of single friends that I wish to hang out with at the same time. Not my cup of tea. I'd rather grow, ferment, and dry the tea (or maybe paint a wicked design) instead of sit and sip. Takes all kinds to make the world spin.

Now, don't get me wrong. I've met some great women of the church who I look up to and who let me stretch my legs. We can revamp this thing and change the perspective so those of us who have been burned in the past don't shirk away the same way as many hide from the word "church." After all, words are words. It's the connotation that we can change. We've gotta quit nipping at each other when we disagree.

Interesting article. One of the most difficult aspects of women's ministry is trying to understand all the unique needs of the women in your congregation AND in your community and how to best target those needs.
I'd be interested to here "part 2" of your article. You address the concerns - now what do you think are some of the solutions in being effective? And what would you see as appropriate means of challenging one another, and not alienating women?

I think the issue of "women's ministries" runs deeper than whether or not various programs in the church are "meeting the needs" of the women in the church. Certainly stepping back a little bit and looking at the various programs is a good start. Stepping back even farther and looking at what the church's vision is for women will help even more.

The "June Cleaver" model has certainly been the prevailing profile for the "perfect Christian woman." The profile we women are supposed to be shooting for. Hence, programs have been designed to help us get there, with the assumption that we are all wanting to get there.

Hey, said some women around the late sixties, early seventies. Suppose we don't want to be June Cleaver? Can we still "work out our faith" and not fit that profile? Why can't we be equal partners with men in marriage, childrearing, business, politics and religion? What if some of us women don't have a marriage, what if some of us are not raising a family? What if some of us are married, and/or raising a family in a different way than the majority? Where do we fit in to the June Cleaver model?

I think the number among this group of women has grown practically exponentially in the last 35-40 years. Now we have many more women who are approaching equality with men in the business and political arenas, who have chosen to live as single women, or to raise their families without husbands, or to be married without raising a family, or to have a career of some kind and so on.

But we need to step back even further than taking a look at what the church's vision for women has been. We need to take a look at what the church has so far envisioned as being barred to women. See, I think that's where some of this rub comes from. How do we approach the church's ideas of what women ought to be and women ought not to be (the prevailing idea is still that women ought to be married, raising a family in the June Cleaver way. Women ought not to be pastors, elders and deacons. I do see some part of this has been changing more over the years in some denominations)? How do we align the church's vision with what God's vision is, for His people, as He has revealed in His written word?

Having "women's ministry" highlights the sub group of "women" in the church. We have "children's ministry" because we want to meet the children where they are (they are not colaborers with the adults), being mindful of them as they grow up in the church. We have "youth ministry" because somewhere in the early twentieth century the word "teenager" was coined and we decided that this subgroup of childhood had particular needs that wouldn't be met in the "children's ministry." Now we are seeing yet another subgroup of "youth ministry" taking off for the "tweens," a word that was coined about ten or so years ago by marketers seeking to target a new market for their products. And we have "women's ministry." The way I see it, this is because women are also not colaborers with what the men are doing. To try and make things symmetrical (without really understanding why they're not), many churches have added "men's ministry," which often seems not to get off the ground like women's and children's ministries. Why not? Because men have had a ministry all along. They call it "church."

Personally, it seems sensible for women to get folded back into "church" as leaders, teachers, workers (elder-types, deacon-types, pastor-types, director-types)so that men and women together can immerse themselves in the minstry God had in mind for all the members of His body -- which is to say, the Great Commission. We would call this "adult ministry," and there would be all kinds of programs that equipped adults in their spiritual gifts, their God-given skills and talents, and would support adults in their colaboring together with Christ.

So what do we do with women who are stay-at-home moms who enjoy the more June Cleaverish role? Seems like a great idea for programs that are successfully equipping this subgroup of women to keep doing what they're doing, and may God continue to bless these ministries. Since there is a small but growing number of men who are staying home with the kids, it seems kind and loving to include them with joyful welcome in these programs.

Men are still going to enjoy having men friends. So having a group of men they hang with and study scripture with, and do something together that they have fun doing, is great. Women are still going to enjoy having women friends. So having a group of women they hang with and study scripture with, and do something together that they have fun doing, is great.

I guess the thing I'm trying to point out is that a radical change in the way church envisions what is good and right for women, and for men, is what's going to make the programs churches offer be more meaningful and powerful in women's -- and men's, for that matter -- lives.

i, too, find myself in agreement with you, amy. i'm a woman pastor, one of five pastors on staff at my church. i don't fit into those more traditional definitions and experiences women's ministry most often provides. i have tattoos, i wear jeans most of the time, and although i can cook pretty well, i have no interest in making cookies and setting out pretty teacups for the next women's 'social'.

i am seriously distressed by the number of comments here that call this position 'divisive' or 'attacking' or 'belittling'. this attitude implies that those of us not served by typical, traditional women's ministry are few and far between (if distressingly vocal!). and although the conversation is often boiled down to being about 'stay-at-home' moms vs. working moms, that focus in itself is indicative of the blinders the church is wearing regarding this issue. it's not just about mothers, or married women, or young or old women--it's about ALL of us. women's ministry that is focused toward only a certain (and, i personally believe, dwindling) segment of women in the church is what's divisive, attacking, and belittling. the idea that those of us who are NOT that kind of woman should try to make do with only what is offered, to 'do our best' with what's there, find a way to 'make it work' for us is insulting. we sit in the congregation, some of us for most of our lives, with an enormous hunger for a deeper walk with God and for fellowship with other serious, bright, deeply-thinking women, feeling left out, feeling 'not enough', feeling not wanted and what's worse, not valued. why is it wrong for us to ask for more meaningful opportunities within women's ministry?

these days the conversation about worship styles is almost finished; most of us recognize that different people respond to different styles of worship, and so many of our churches offer at least a couple of options--more traditional, more contemporary. even the term 'blended worship' recognizes the reality of different voices of worship found within a congregation. why is that not the case with women's ministry? why are women expected to fit into a certain pattern, a narrow restriction of what it means to be a 'good' Christian woman?

this article brings up a very important issue that the church has ignored for far too long. a very important segment of our body is being excluded from some of the most important parts of our communal life, whether deliberately or unintentionally, and it's something that cannot wait to be addressed any longer. each of us is brilliantly designed by our loving Creator to live and serve uniquely and formidably in His kingdom. it's time we started embracing that truth by expanding and deepening our women's ministry programs to include as many of His daughters as possible.

Amy- I applaud your comments which are shared by more women than you can imagine. I share the frustration of one-size fits all women's ministry programming. Where unless you quilt, scrapping, crafts, stay home mom you don't seem to fit in. Their are single moms, widows, spiritually mismatched and other disinfranchised groups which are often lost in traditional women's ministry programming. Indepth bible studies such as Beth Moore, Precepts any many other offer true meat instead of fluff. The church body should value differences which contribute to the beautiful fabric of the church instead of cookie cutter saints. If we model Jesus and the disciples each were unique in their personality but valued none the less.

I facilitate women's studies for the last 8 years and have the priviledge to serve and fall in love with all types of women. The mary or martha type, the bathesheba, delilah, women at the well and many others have found a safe, nuturing enviornment for them to grow spiritually and relationally. It blesses my soul to see a woman fall passionately in love with Jesus, accepting His love and forgiveness growing in wisdom and understanding. To see their proverbial light go on brings me to tears everytime.

The article was interesting and touched on some of the same reasons I too don’t care much for women’s ministries per se as we know them. In reading the blog, it is nice to note that there are others that share my same feelings and I am not alone in my perspectives. It makes me feel, well…normal and not an alien female who never enjoyed frilly dresses or playing with dolls, but preferred playing baseball and climbing trees.

Here’s were I abruptly depart from agreement with the ensuing blog comments. A majority of the responses, including my own, resounded with “agreement.” There’s someone who feels the way I do, we are alike, I find a kindred spirit, I too am like you, I agree with your statements. Don’t the responses themselves embody exactly the reason we gather together as women in the name of women’s ministries and why they meet needs? Each of us that responded felt a need to “join” in some way.

With my first point aside, what was most striking to me about the article and the content of responses were the number of “I” and “my” statements. I don’t like it, it doesn’t meet my need, that’s just not me, too frilly, too light, there shouldn’t be a separate subculture, don’t need separate clumps of individuals, we should have greater intentions, I don’t fit in, can’t it be about something else…all statements of “I” like it, “I” don’t like it, I don’t think it is adequate or “I” don’t approve of it.

In doing some personal soul searching about my own dislikes of such events and being expected at times to participate or even organize them as the pastor’s wife…(yes, I have been a pastor’s wife for 30 years, am a licensed clinical professional counselor and work on the staff of a well known university)…I have been impressed by one thought in my conversation with God. It’s not about me or what I like or don’t like! Every point of contact with another human being is an opportunity to do the will of the Father. Is it too much to think that God planned years ago to put on the heart of a woman in my church this week to organize a women’s event just so Sarah would meet Sue over cookies at the break; and that connection would result in Sue leading Sarah into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ? I do not consider that superfluous. The women’s event wasn’t about the speaker’s topic that day; it was about Sarah coming to know Christ through connection with Sue. God had an event planned for that day he didn’t tell any of us about. It was something far from shallow and one-dimensional.

I can’t recall attending a women’s ministry event that I didn’t want to attend where true ministry did not occur in spite of my wishes to be elsewhere. It happened through connecting with others who found they had common interest and issues either addressed by the event or aside from those addressed by the event. Relationships were built that opened the door to ministry, on the spot or in days to come. You see, it wasn’t about me, the supposed purpose of the women’s ministry event or even whether I liked it or didn’t like it.

I think my purpose today is not to decide whether I like or dislike women’s ministries, but to simply ask God every morning who He would like me to meet today and how may I speak His words of life into their very being by the power of His spirit. I am not extraordinary, I am not well known and I am more comfortable working behind the scenes one-on-one rather than out front where I am often thrust in light of being the pastor’s wife and job responsibilities. Will I attend every women’s ministry event I’m invited to be a part of or approve of them all? No, I will still exercise my ability to set boundaries around time and family and other obligations, and sometimes in my humanness simply say no, because I don’t feel like it, the topic doesn’t interest me or I would rather do something else. But, will I ever say they are not necessary, without purpose, unchallenging or one-dimensional? Never! For whatever reason God chooses to gather us together, whether through seemingly superfluous women’s ministry gatherings or serious in depth Bible studies, I will always know that God designed the day, his purpose will be accomplished and extraordinary ministry will take place through ordinary people. I can only hope to have been a part of it (if I decided to go) by being open to the needs of others. I am not always open to the needs of others, because I am human and selfish. I like everyone to see things my way, I like the party to be about an interest of my own, and I like to be challenged intellectually, but by the power of God, I am still learning more and more everyday…It’s not about me.

Joanne, you hit the nail on the head for me. I like the mix -- let's just call it "church." Friendships naturally develop when common interests are there, male or female. I'll find my own box, thank you. *grin*

I’m late to this lively discussion, had time to read Amy’s great article and about 1/3 of the thoughtful responses. I used to be one of those “home party” ladies. Direct sales it’s called in the marketing world, and it enabled me to learn about business and contribute to my family income while being a stay-at-home mom while my kids were young. I moved later to the corporate world in an executive HR position, and I credit my years as a “home party lady” for much of my needed business education.

Didn’t feel defensive though, by Amy’s article. In business one knows that every product or service has a niche, and we don’t lose sleep trying to talk someone into our niche. I guess that I feel that way about the fluffy WM stuff – I’m not in the luncheon and tea party niche, and so don’t worry about not attending that stuff, but am fine with it existing in the church for those who do fit (or aspire to fit) the June Cleaver profile . . . for women who aren't leaders in the church.

Which elludes to my somewhat different problem with the world that Amy described (sorry for not reading all the comments if someone already said this).

When most of the women’s activities look like she described, when every women’s event flyer has heart or flower graphics, when the events we promote are called “tea” or “luncheon” or “ladies _____ (whatever),” when most of the women leaders carry bibles with lace covered bible covers . . . well these kind of overtly “feminine” things make it hard for the genuine leaders (who are mostly men) to take women leaders seriously as spiritual leaders in any context except with other women.

We’ve made significant strides in some churches and traditions, but every time I see a woman take a mic at “big church” (the primary “mixed gender” gathering in every church) wearing a lacy outfit to talk about the upcoming “spring ladies tea,” I cringe.

Now, (in my 3rd career), I’m a seminary grad and navigating the waters of ministry leadership in a man’s world. My calling is to organizational leadership within the church or para-church. I turn down invitations to speak at women’s events because I don’t want other leaders (men) to put me into the box Amy describes. Though I own a few items of clothing with lace, I never wear them at church or when fulfilling some kind of public leadership responsibility.

I would never demand to be taken seriously, its something each of us must earn in the context in which we serve. However, I don’t think it’s inauthentic or contrived to recognize the centuries old thinking and to be a little intentional about serving in a way that chips away at instead of validating the these old paradigms.

Hope those thoughts don’t offend.

Wendi

The greatest women leaders and business women I know wear lace. Yesterday I met with a friend who works in the City. (Canary Wharf, London) She was wearing a figure hugging DVF dress in a flowery, pink pattern. She is a respected city banker. It is only in the church that women who are leaders think they have to look like men! The Bible says we should do whatever it takes to win the lost. I think that might mean doing some pink stuff. I love being a woman. I preach, cook, play rugby and teach A level literature and Theatre. When I organise women's events I just make sure there is lot of variety of styles and times, knowing some will appeal and some will not. The reason I do women's events is because they work. Give me a room full of just women and I will talk to them about what counts: their relationships, their fears and their hopes. A man can't do that to the same extent. That is why the Bible instructs, 'older women teach younger women.' It works.

As a co-leader for our women's ministry, I put a lot of time and work into providing different activities and times of spiritual growth for the women in our church. So after reading so many complaints about how women's ministries today don't include, reach out, or make everybody feel "comfortable", is rather hurtful. You ask, "Why is it wrong for us to ask for more meaningful opportunities within women's ministry?" Here's the answer. It's not wrong for you to ask. But when you ask, please give your suggestions on how your idea can be carried out. It's impossible for a couple of leaders to take care of the needs for stay at home moms, working moms, working women with no children, single women, women who do like frills, women who don't like frills, those who like sports, the outdoors, quilting, deep bible studies, light social gatherings.......the list goes on and on. Just a few people can't do it all. ALL women need to step up and volunteer to serve in the ministry if we're to meet everybody's desires, needs, and wants.

I am a woman in vocational church leadership. I hope you all understand that it is all but impossible to design any one program that meets everyone's spiritual, emotional, physical, etc. needs. The "fluff" crowd will be drawn to one particular event, while the "intellectual" crowd will be drawn to another. I could go on and on with the different types of folks, but you get the point.

Another bit of food for thought - if your church isn't currently offering any events for women like you, be willing to be part of the solution! It's quite possible that YOU are the answer to someone else's prayer!!!

I encourage you all to keep focused on the WHOLE LOAF (The Bread of Life) and not on the crumbs...

Blessings and peace to all you sisters in Christ, Susan

I am praying for all of you women out there who have felt discouraged by the ministries offered to you at your churches. I am mostly praying for two things:
1. That you seriously contemplate and pray about the possiblity that perhaps God has allowed you to see a hole in the ministry because h