wow, as I read and re-read this post, questions far more significant than "was the f-bomb appropriate in this situation?" jump out at me. What is boiling just below the surface of the people we see at church every week? If a person's brokenness boiled over in our midst, how would we handle it? I can recall a time at Scum when, during Communion, a young man in gothic attire crawled down the center aisle on his hands and knees and prostrated himself in front of the altar, moaning and weeping. He hadn't showered or shaved for days and was struggling with alcohol. The word wretched comes to mind. Was he escorted out for disturbing worship? No, thank God. But several people went and knelt next to him and prayed, even as the final song was sung, the benediction given, and the service ended. The congregation didn't complain about a "ruined" worship experience. I can recall another time, after a sermon on the topic of "where is God when it hurts?", that Pastor Sares instructed the church staff and leadership to go stand around the congregation in order to receive and pray for those who were hurting. It was shocking how many people stood up and went for prayer, especially when it was the person with whom one had exchanged the usual pleasantries with at the beginning of the service. All the while the band played on and the rest of the congregation sang God's praises. It was a beautiful moment.

FYI, I have spent most of my life in "normal" churches, just like Mary Kate, so please don't accuse me of taking cheap shots based on my presuppositions. Please don't think that I believe that Jesus is going to hand some special crown to Scum of the Earth Church because we got it right above all others. I often have to repent of my attitude towards other churches, especially those with big buildings and even bigger budgets. I spent time in a wonderful Presbyterian church in Texas that welcomed and loved me like family despite the fact that I had long hair, wore a dog chain around my neck, painted my nails, had multiple piercings, and wore torn up jeans and ratty old t-shirts while everyone else was walking around in suits. Why did they do that? Because the gospel was central to their lives and their worship. The pastor was ridiculously in love with Jesus. I've spent time in mega-churches and I've spent time in tiny little church plants. I've been in churches where you could time the service with a stopwatch and it would be exactly the same every week and I've been in churches where I never knew what was going to happen each Sunday. In my mind, what makes or breaks a church is the centrality of the gospel of Christ. As I've been reading and posting on these topics, the song "Man of No Reputation" keeps haunting my thoughts.

"This man of no reputation
Loves us all with relentless affection
And He loves all those poor in spirit,
Come as you are
To the man of no reputation."

Will we offer this same invitation to the world? To ourselves?

"The church is full of alcoholics, drug addicts, porn addicts, liars... and if you think your church isnt, then you aren't doing your job."

Excellent point, as the great theologian Steve Taylor put it:

Just as you are
Just a wretch like me
Jesus is for losers
Grace from the blood of a tree

Better to realize you are a wretch and allow Christ to work on your life than to believe you are Christ-like only to find in the end he doesn't even know your name...

I'm not without sin, and I don't want to throw any stones. I simply want to be part of the spotless bride that Christ desires. In an earlier post, someone referred to the filthy rags Isaiah talks about. My question is, why would we intentionally offer the filth, especially in a service dedicated to the arrival of the One who came to cleanse us of that filth? I don't deny the amazing transformation in your life, or the love and patience that helped bring it about. I do wish that more Christians were like that. But I also believe that injecting such words (as they are understood by today's society) into a worship service demeans the Gift that you have received. It's not a matter of being fake or sincere--it's about being sensitive to your audience and spotless towards your Savior.

Mary Kate, I haven't said anything until now, and I appreciated your comments -- until you got to the last paragraph. I have been following this and there was nothing malicious, cruel, uninformed or obscene about the comments made to the prior posts. It was just information as to how they would this type of writing, or how their church would receive it. The story of Jesus is about each of us, but it is also about all of us as the body of Christ, and we all need to be sensitive to that body, including you.

Is the poem in question published anywhere on the web? I would very much like to read it!

I don't know anything about SCUM, but it sounds like it probably was an appropriate poem in that context.

You go girl! I remember a well known speaker using an expletive during a presentation on poverty and then he said, "The problem is that you are more concerned with my language than helping the people who are starving." He was right and you are too. Thanks.

Brent,

We "intentionally offer the filth" because we offer our whole selves and everything in our lives to God. We bring it all before the only One who can redeem that filth. Do we think God is offended by the F-word? That he can't handle it? That it's too vulgar? No, He came to us, as Mary Kate reminds us, in filthy, humiliating weakness; in this He shows his solidarity.

As far as we have been told, the poem wasn't designed to hurt people; it was designed FOR hurt people, and offered in praise of this magnificent God, who comes to all of us in the middle of our brokenness.

I think too often, in an effort to get right to the goodness of God, we fail to give voice to our frailty, anger, and weakness, and we never offer true contrition. If instead we recognize the garbage in our lives and in our world, the works of purity and beauty we create to symbolize God's purity and beauty are that much more magnificent.

The logic being used here to defend the use of vulgar language is self-centered and appalling. Nathan, one could easily substitute 'nudity' instead of the 'F-word' in your post to justify a very depraved form of 'worship.' And whatever arguments you might come up with against nudity in worship would probably be just as effective against using 'f***', a word that I still haven't seen anyone use here yet. Talk about hypocrisy! Can God handle hearing the f-word without throwing His hands over his ears and running out of the room? Of course He can. Does that mean it doesn't offend Him? If you think it doesn't, you'd better be right.

Isn't context the issue...? For example, when I was a kid if i would have said "crap" (I did say that!)a spank or at least a kick in the butt (oops!) would have been swift coming from my father...now not much a of a big deal..my 5 year old son sometimes slips (he hears his friends say it all the time) and I gentle remind him we don't talk that way...

If we were to think about it, the Bible being translated into current, contextual language would probably not be read by many or in their worship meetings...what do we do with that?

I'm not throwning stones, I AM wretched and try daily to get over myself long enough to share God's love withh someone else.

Brent your post about nudity misses the point and from an ehtical point of view doesn't take into account that for some the use of the word "prostitute" or "whore" would be offending because of the mental images we might conjure.

Yet both are very important to telling the gospel story in particular situtions...might other terms do the same?

In our white washed church, we've ministered to the filthy, porn-addicted, body-pierced, alcoholic, unmarried and pregnant, ad naseum also. I really don't think I've been part of a church that didn't recognize herself as a hospital for sinners.
Ms. Makkai speaks of her pastor:
"He never approved of my actions, and never pulled any punches when he told me how terribly I was behaving... but in the same breath, he was asking me if I was okay... asking me if I wanted to come over for dinner."

When people like me (no tattooes nor piercings) have "never pulled any punches" when telling you how terribly you behaved, you automatically lumped us into a stereotype of Christianity. Every pastor I know stresses over how much IS boiling under the surface of the membership, but as long as it is covered up it can't be treated.

Mary Kate is right in that aspect--putting on a happy face can be disastrous. But I think Mary Kate and Tim might want to examine themselves to see if they might be as judgemental and self-righteous as they accuse others of being. All we're saying is we wouldn't approve of the language. We never said we didn't approve of her. By the way, maybe there are worse problems for Jehovah than our language, but last I checked the Bible still said, "Be ye holy, for I am holy." Does being post-modern and cutting-edge mean we no longer see sin as a problem nor holiness as a goal?

I tried to offer some interesting points about church and the centrality of the gospel so that we could move beyond this little word (which I actually did use in a comment in Part 1, but whatever). In fact, I think that is what Mary Kate's response is all about - looking to the deeper issues that plague our churches. All of our churches, Scum included. At its worst, a cussword is but a pimple on the face of morality. Let's get real and talk about how we can reach out to the broken who are living among us.

*heavy sigh*

You know... this whole fiasco is simply making me tired. I don't spend a lot of time online (especially not on blog sites or other "comment boards" of this nature) I think I was really unprepared for the never-ending one-up-manship that seems to be going on here. I was also unprepared for the , i don't know, UNKINDNESS that has resulted from this whole debate. It's really surreal looking at a page-full of comments written by people who you've never met, but who feel at liberty to make all kinds of accusations about your character, your talents, your relationship with God, etc etc. It's like Mike and I have been tied to a post in the town square while rotten vegetables were handed out.

To those who have come to this table with disagreements, but a willingness to hear the other side; I thank you and I want you to know that I do understand the arguments presented here, and I respect your views. I was raised a right-wing, conservative, fundamentalist, Christian... I'm not completely unaware of the implications involved in the decision. Nor am I making any attempts to corrupt the kingdom of God... and I have NO doubt that this claim will be met with post after post from people who feel as though an internet connection and a spell-checker qualifies them to make definitive, glib, judgements about a complete stranger...

Oh, and incidentally Brent, if you think that
-my pastor being called a "hireling"
-the same person saying that I "bear rotten fruit"
-is NOT uninformed and malicious, then it appears I owe someone an apology.

The fact of the matter is this:
I was asked to read a poem for Christmas Eve... despite what everyone else seems to assume here, I didn't insist on reading, and when the issue sparked a massive debate, I offered to simply not participate in the service. Furthermore, I did not get up and throw a profanity-laced tantrum on stage. I told a story about the kids that I taught poetry to, a story in which a child (with tears streaming down his face) cussed me out for asking him to express himself. You can split hairs all you want, you can disagree all you want. 4-years later, neither Mike nor I regret our decision to go through with it. Someone previously wrote "the heart is key." Indeed, I couldn't agree more. I am struggling to see the Christ-loving hearts behind many of these fairly sarcastic replies, but I'm not going to shove anyone away and say that they are not my brother or sister. I read a poem... a poem that was written to express hope. As much as you think such a thing is not possible.

Mary Kate -
Yes, I have felt that way. And thanks for taking the risk to be real and authentic here with us. That is truly a hard thing to do in a culture that neither understands, values, or affirms such things. It gives me hope to know I have a sister in Christ like you out there. May you feel ever more heard, validated, and loved by our God. Peace to you.

With brevity I commented in Part 2 that understanding this issue depends on context, context, and context (cultural, spiritual, and literary...). We still don't have enough data on these three-Cs to stand in Sares' shoes and form accurate opinions from afar.

After reading Mary Kate's post and comments I would add a fourth context: emotional.

When you lance a spiritual and emotional boil, be careful what comes out. Good hygeine requires it because this emotional rawness spreads just like an infection.

Regards,

Rich

Brent,

In the same token, by your logic, we could argue against putting on a drama about the brutal torture of an innocent man (like, say, Jesus), or against letting anyone except professionals play music, or against letting someone with a speech impediment speak publicly in church. Their all ugly, unpleasant, or imperfect to some degree.

That's absurd, you say? If so, we're talking about matters of degree...that is, how close to perfect does our worship service have to appear? Is the F-word too ugly? Is crucifixion too ugly? Is bad music too ugly? What about a lisp?

A relevant discussion will turn from the absolute morality of what is presented to its purpose and benefit. I'm clearly not arguing for nudity, and your clearly not arguing against speech impediments. Let's stop caricaturing each other's position. If you really think the F-word is out of bounds, you've got to explain why that's different from other flawed things we offer to God in worship.

Mary Kate-

My prayers go out to you as you continue your journey. Welcome home to this dysfunctional family called the church. You are loved here. Let's press on toward the goal. Stay real and stay in the word. It will all pan out.

This is fascinating to read! It is amazing to to see the filters we read Bible through and the lack of humility we display. Are we really more concerned about cussing than what is in a person's heart? So if I don't say the f-word but have the same angry outburst at my sister with a self-censored word, is that okay? Is it okay for somebody who is unfaithful to their mate to read from the bible to the congregation as long as nobody knows about the affair?

Jesus was incredibly "earthy" when He walked among us and there is no reason to think that has changed. One of his chief targets was pretenders (root word for hypocrite). And we are all pretenders. Why do we try to tame the Lion? (for those getting ready for Narnia.)

Mary Kate, Pastor Sares: It seems a little revolution, every now-and-then, is a good thing. Most importantly, it sounds like your hearts in the right place. It's exciting to hear the work God is doing in your midst. Your church sounds like a place to meet Jesus.

Eric, do you really, think saying 'f***' might be *important* to telling the gospel story?

Nathan, you said, "A relevant discussion will turn from the absolute morality of what is presented to its purpose and benefit." Do you really believe that our intentions trump absolute morality?

This is dangerous, indeed. I don't doubt anybody's motives, but it's starting to look like the legacy of the emerging church will be "We can rationalize anything." I think even you all will be apalled at what those who come after you will justify.

I understand that you were trying to make a point, but I also had an English teacher who always told us that using profanity just showed the lack of intelligence because one did not have a wide vocabulary. God managed to author the entire Bible and never once had to resort to filthy language. Vivid? yes. True? yes. Descriptive? yes. Blunt and not always tactful? oh yeah (just check out some of the Prophets) But if the God of the universe can still manage to communicate to mankind just how sinful we are without using filthy language, can we do any less? Was there absolutely no OTHER WAY to get the point across? And if not, was it really the appropriate place? Is a church service really something that should have to start posting a rating on Sunday so you know whether your children should come that day? Oh, this Sunday it's a "G" service, but next week, it will be "PG-13", and a couple weeks after that, it's going to be "R" - so be forewarned. Somehow, I don't think that is what God intended.

I'm just glad there are many different churches, so we can all choose.

For what its worth, Scum has never referred to itself as an emerging or post-modern church, and has never set about purposefully operate within that type of framework.

On a side note, I'd like to say that I have found this conversation to be stimulating. I think it's been good for all of us to think through what we believe and how we ought to explain it. I'm not saying it hasn't been frustrating, but we shouldn't shy away from this type of conversation. It helps us define who we are and shows that our belief system is a thoughtful one.

so this is the state of the American Christian Church. i am fascinated and sadenned. so much judgment. so much legalism. so little care for our sister.

i live in Brooklyn. i'm a minister. if i were offended by cusswords i'd probably have to move! i don't even hear them anymore, they are spoken so much around me. i don't think Jesus hears them either. well, i don't think he hears them any more or less than he hears any of our human-made words. are any of our thoughts not tainted by sin?

you want something to be offended about? how about the crappy conditions most of the Third World is living in right now as we sit in the lap of luxury talking about cusswords. now THAT'S offensive to God.

Mary Kate, bless you. thank you.

grace and peace,
-Nathan

Not sure Brent...but I do think that God finds a way, and His way isn't always part of my "perfect" (far-from-it) life...

I think that we (the Church) often prevent people from expressing God's truth in whatever way they can. When that happens then others miss out...their potenital walk with God loses with lack of expression on my part.

We MUST encourage our brothers and sisters to struggle through expressing what God has done, is doing, in their lives; and I think that is what Mary Kate was doing...struggling to express the profoundness, the depth, to which her soul has been touched, moved...and perhaps she was struggling to use the "perfect" words. Even still her desire to be real and authentic may have touched someone and helped them to reach the truth inside themselves that they were struggling to express.

Is that rationalizing? I'm not sure, perhaps. But the church is famous for excluding those who don't quite fit in...my guess is that many might see this situation as a blessing and encouraging.

All this to say, I'm not really sure what I'd do if I were in this postion...but I applaude Mary Kate and Mike's desire to be true to themselves and to God, naked and unashamed.

Peace, Brother's and Sister's
Remember to give thanks this week!

*gasp*
Eric... you said "naked"!

As a student pastor I served a wonderful small church in the Texas Hill country. This scenic space for worship was ideal for a new pastor. Two weeks into my tenure there, I was "warned" about a young man in the congregation. He suffered from Tourette's. It manifested itself by this angelic face screaming out the f-word--usually during the sermon and other "Holy" times. The warning from the members was not to demean this young man. Indeed, their warnings were only to prepare me for the occurrence. I was also told that he was the reason that many people had stopped coming to this church. They wanted to hear the sermon and couldn't get passed the vulgar expletives emanating from the back pew.
Three weeks after I had been there, HE attended. After introductions, and being assured that I did indeed know about his condition he apologized in advance and sheepishly slipped in to his pew.
Ten minutes into the service, rumblings began. By the time the sermon began He was in full swing. The F-word resounded through the small chapel like a trumpet calling the troops to march. All eyes were on me--how would I respond to this hungry and hurting child of God.
I preached. I smiled. I walked down the aisle and took His hand and held it. His eyes beamed with the light of the Holy Spirit. I was ministered to that beautiful Sunday morning. Not the other way around.
By the time I left, with this wonderful, Godly, expletive shouting young man in attendance most every week; the congregation doubled. Was preaching through that every week easy or comfortable? NO. Was it ministry? Yes. Ministry is dirty and should lead us all out of our complacency. And ministry oft times is offensive. The cross, the passion of Christ is and was very offensive. The reality of life for many people is horrific and offensive. That is the reality of being the eyes, ears hands and feet of Christ.
There is indeed offense to be taken here. Sadly, it is in the failure of the "Pharisees" of today's church to see or understand that church is not a place to go and be lulled into a "Me & Jesus Happy Place". We need to allow for the fact that the face of God and the touch of the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to cut through any and all of filth, darkness and disease humanity embodies. Even the expletives of our existence.

This commentary is definitely helpful as evidenced by the last post by thea mckee--that is an awesome story! i love how the gospel comes through some of these stories, its a real opportunity to praise God

Any of us could scream out in pain using the f-word (or any other word) anywhere in God's wild creation (except of course, in the presence of judgemental religious humans) and recieve the same acceptance we recieve there at all other times. I know, because I've done it. Funny how all of God's creatures who didn't eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil know how to accept those of us who did, even as we can't seem to accept each other. Maybe that's what the fall was all about in the first place. Anyway, you rock Kate. You've got a huge good heart, and one of the the most courageous I know.