I haven't been personally confronted with this issue in a pastoral setting, but with recent publicity in the UK it has been on my mind. For me the moral issue is settled - I believe the homosexual act is a sin. That's my reading of the Bible. But I also believe that about divorce (and welcome divorcees in my church), fornication (and welcome less than chaste teenagers into my church) and a host of other behaviours and attitudes. My task is not to condemn but to pastor people to wholeness and purity in Christ. Why should my attitude be any different towards gays? Good article.

McLaren says not one word about God's Word, which is, thank God, clear, unequivocal, and precise on this subject. What a bunch of doublespeak.

That is a story we need to hear! I must admit at the beginning of the story I was thinking to myself, "Why doesn't he just answer the question?" I think we all need to balance our view of the truth with the compassion that Christ modeled. Thanks for the lesson.

I really appreciate Brian's pastoral wisdom and sensitivity here. There is usually a question behind a question, and Brian is right on to spot it.

I have to admit that I've been perplexed that Brian doesn't go further in tackling this question, because he is pretty good at wading into territory that looks dangerous to the rest of us. And he brings his wit and sensitivity into those dangerous areas, and usually causes us to think.

Is it possible to make some sort of pronouncement, as provisionally and graciously as possible, even in this sensitive area? Without it being the last word and the word after that? ;)

The sad thing is, even if Brian could give a clear statement on where his church stands on homosexuality, he can’t be sure that the congregation will emulate what he says when the time comes, because THEY are probably divided about it also. Unless the congregation has formed an agreed-upon position, that contains specifics of what will and will not be accepted, and that has been communicated to all members, then he must in all honesty say that his church has not agreed upon a specific stance on the subject.
Certainly it is a easy matter to acknowledge the Biblical position that homosexuality is sin, but then what? The way we relate to a homosexual who accepts the biblical teaching, and practices celibacy, should be different than toward a non-repentant homosexual who is searching for validation. In the case of visitors, as here, we should realize that unrepentant sinners of every type come to weddings as guests. If their particular sin is profanity, or boasting, or taking God’s name in vain, one just hopes that good taste will prevent them from indulging while physically on the premises. But there are no guarantees. In a case like that, we must be polite, tolerate it and perhaps use it as a teaching moment, as an example of what NOT to do.

VERY interesting discussion, especially in light of the brewing controversy over the new "End of the Spear" movie. I love (and try to live by) what a friend from Five Minute Records used to say. "Love God, Love Others, Take Time To Listen." Not bad advice, indeed...

I'm pretty confident that if this is the attitude, then in five years you won't have a position anyway. You're already practicing a moratorium. How about a moratoriaum on your lack of clarity? Sign me up for that one.

I think Brian handled the situation perfectly. I hope I have that kind of sensitivity when confronted with a similar situation. But to suggest that we need to discuss this for five years is to deny what the Christian Church has affirmed for 2000 years. 'Cowardly flip-flopper'? No, but still cowardly. You can't flip-flop on something you never make a decision on.

Pastor, thank you. Your wisdom is refreshing. Bless you for your patience in learning from Christ. Through you, He now has me rethinking my attitude towards homosexuality... as well may other sins I have, in the past, written people off because of. To be sure, I am no "cleaner" than the homosexual person and, in some respects, perhaps even less so. I'm sorry that anyone would be unable to see the wisdom in your words. My mind is opened anew. Again, thank you, from my heart. God bless you always.

While we must be "pastoral" in our approach to people, we must also be "Biblical." Jesus did not condone stoning the woman involved in sexual sin, but He did tell her to "go and sin no more." Jesus did not hesitate to lady her know that sin is sin and to please God one must stop sinning. There is no need for us to stay silent about the sin of homosexuality for five years or even 5 minutes. To think we can minister to someone better by not being honest with them and true the the Scriptures demonstrates a great error in understanding the whole character of God. It is our job to love the sinner while making sure they know that God hates the sin, no matter what the sin is--and homosexuality is specifically stated to be an abomination to Him. While this is not always easy to do, yet it is necessary if we are going to allow Jesus to be the Lord of our lives and Head of the Church.

I like what i am hearing...the call for more of us than just the pastors to be compassionate and understanding, and at the same time part of a dynamic life changing church. I wonder if the story of the "rich young ruler" would have read any different if he had been gay? Would the account have recorded him as the "much loved young ruler?" OR the "in a relationship young ruler?"

Would the challenge have been "go and break off your relationships and follow me?" Didnt he say to both the rich young ruler and the Samaritan woman at the well the same thing "Go and sin no more?" (In his own words of course...)

I think the key is that he authentically loved them. He knew all about them...every intimate detail. He came to restore them to his Father. The issue is not the sin, as much as the separation that the sin causes. The only way to get past the separation is Jesus. Lets just love people in such a way that they get to respond to who Jesus really is. If they accept that, or reject that, then we have loved them to death...the way we should.

Bravo Brian!
I think that it is such a pity that the question can't be framed in terms of the issues of fidelity vs. promiscuity rather than sexual orientation.

You can put off telling the truth for only so long. We represent God to people in word & action. We're afraid to be labelled w/the right or left. We want to meet people pastorally, so we ask questions. Would the couple's fathers be welcome? Yes. Might they be offended by a celebration of Christian marriage? Yes. Hopefully the relationship established in asking further questions can build a bridge strong enough to handle the truth. Sooner or later, you have to speak the truth.

Richard Dennis Miller wrote:
"McLaren says not one word about God's Word, which is, thank God, clear, unequivocal, and precise on this subject. What a bunch of doublespeak."

BTW Richard...either did you!
Remember the Samaritan Woman at the well? I am sure that Jesus did not tell her to straighten out her sexual lifestyle. I guess he just talked about something regarding never having to thirst again. Man he even spent a few days in that town! I wonder where he slept? This Jesus guy is just too improper and he wouldn’t fit into our definition of North American church. May be church is having to get cleaned up before being accepted into community! That’s safe…and we all like a GOD who is safe!

I may not have a problem with Brian except for this:

but because I am a pastor, and pastors have learned from Jesus that there is more to answering a question than being right or even honest:

I think Jesus's example was to be honest. I have been hurt by a Pastor not being honest.Clearly we need to understand the question and asking more questions is perfectly acceptable, but to allow pastors to be dishonest is wrong.

No where in Scripture do we have an example of denying anyone the message of Jesus Christ. We also have no instance of anyone being "excommunicated" for homosexuality; we have one instance of "incest" (maybe); It's time for the church to allow the Holy Spirit to take charge. We need not un-necessarily cause more division within the ranks.

I think Brian's position is:

It's not my job to have a position on your sins. It's my job to repent of mine, and to treat you with love, because no matter how sinful you are, it's nothing compared to what I have been forgiven of.

Many Christians are way too obsessed in protecting their intellectual positions and not nearly passionate enough about reaching out with a hand of love. When we act with this kind of judgment, we bring God's judgment on ourselves (see Romans 2, about as clear as you can get) and we fall out of relationship with God and our neighbors UNLESS our judgment is in the full knowledge of bringing a person to God's forgiveness.

My .02.

-C

I was very surprised by Brian's article. He shows such a great deal of wisdom in the first half of the article, and then an amazing lack of it in the latter half. In the end he comes across as quite confused, and that makes me wonder how he became as prominent as you say he is. We don't need a moratorium; the Word of God is quite clear and is not going to change! We simply need to submit to the authority of the scriptures as we speak the truth in love, with gentleness and respect.

I am looking forward to this discussion, but I think we all need to remember the "Blessing of Blogs" discussion from January 3.

No matter where our discussion takes us, let's be sure each post is a witness to the love of Jesus Christ and the unity appropriate to His Church.

As a Family Therapist and a Pastor, I agree there are questions behind questions, but the answer is still the same just as it always has been.

I think Brian's approach of looking for the real issue behind the question is right on! A little respect goes a long way and without it no one will come to Christ.

There are really two issues here. 1) What do we believe the BIBLE says regarding homosexuality and all other sin for that matter? and 2) How do we deal with people as they come to us with questions? I feel great about how Brian dealt with it. I feel awful to think we have to revisit biblical orthodoxy in this area. Grace and truth - we must have BOTH. Let's not let others' lack of grace in handling truth cause us to question the truth.

It is always intriguing to read McLaren's thoughts, wisdom, and controversial statements. It is refreshing to read the above statements (except one) that reflect an openness to those who don't yet have a relationship with Christ or those who have been less then obedient like we all have.

I expected more of the hard-line..."They're all going to hell!" type nonsense. I'm pleasantly surprised....so far....

Thank you so much for your sharing your wisdom. I have longed for someone to say what you have said. I am so tired of all the bashing and judgemental attitudes. We don't know everything there is to know about homosexuality and until we do I agree - let's just shut up!

I can appreciate all of the comments, and certainly I too have an opinion on the matter but surely God's not silent on the matter is He? Are we to belive that because we live in a society and an emerging culture of acceptance and liberalism that we are to "not offend" with truth that transforms? People need to know that God loves the sinner and at the same time hates sin. Have we become so preoccupied with inclusion and tolerance that we have become a compromised generation. Look at what has happened in some of the major denominations because of those who openly embrace a homosexual lifestyle. Homosexuals have not only infiltrated the church, and but have also ascended the heights of leadership and once in place have setout to lead others away from what "The WORD" has to say about their sinful ways. While it is true God loves everyone, and it is His desire and will that all be saved, let's never forget the fact that it is also His will that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. Jesus died; shed His precious blood in order for us to be delivered from sin, and not to continue in sin. Like all other sinners that need to saved, homosexuals are to repent,and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation and deliverance.

Way too often we have rushed to judgement on this issue. I am so grateful for Brian's article, and appreciate his sensitivity. May we all know the depth and width and height of the love of God.

I am a manager of a retail store and had the opportunity to witness to one of my mid-managers. I knew he was gay because he was open about his sexuality. I asked him a question, if he ever attended church. He responded why should I go, all they do is send me to hell. My heart was broken. I said to him, that it is not God's desire to send any one to hell but to have a life. I did tell him that God is seeking a relationship with him but his life style has to change and God will give him the strength to change. All I did was show him Gods love and what it meant to me to live a holy life. And yes he came to listen to me preach the word of God. I know that I planted a seed in his life and God Will do the rest.

To me this article made me think in a couple of different ways. First, the wisdom of answering a question with a question like Jesus frequently did in His day is definitely something to be kept at the forefront of our minds. I admire the person with the patience (or humility) and discernment to pray before they speak.

Secondly, like Brent stated in his comment, I am disturbed that so many pastors, as indicated by Brian in his article, are so confused as to what scripture says about homosexuality that they might need 5 years to ponder the idea. The black and white is that homosexuality is as sin. To me, established students of God's Word shouldn't need 5 years to figure that out. People are people and should still be loved and cared for, however, sin is still sin and should be called as such.

This is a thought provoking post and I agree that there is wisdom in not continuing to make it No 1 issue or THE sin on which the church wars. I was particularly struck by the sensitive reply to the couple enquiring about the church and can see that a sensitivity is required so that individuals are not alienated. However, I am very unhappy that the article is supported with the commentary that begins:

"Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about homosexuality. We've heard all sides but no position has yet won our confidence so that we can say "it seems good to the Holy Spirit and us."

To me this phrase indicates not a sensitivity to the issue but perhaps a lack of courage in making a clear biblical statement about homosexuality. Pastoral skill combines confrontation with care.

Beautifully expressed! In this age of instant gratification and macho posturing, how refreshing to be lovingly invited to take time -- whatever time is needed -- to just listen... listen to others, and listen to the Holy Spirit. Yes, we're more comfortable when we think we have everything nailed down. But is this life really about our comfort? More than a few atrocities have been committed or condoned by "good Christians" through the ages who were so sure they knew the mind of God. And speaking from experience, it is amazing how quickly we can be humbled, turned upside down and brought to our knees when seeking God's truth is more important to us than "being right." Thank you Brian, for your wise counsel.

This is an example of the church/pastor settling down and accepting the culture around them to not cause any issues, or waves, or upset people. Homosexuality is different than divorce or other sins. It strikes at the root of the entire family structure and gender identity. God called it an abomination. No other single sin was called that,nor was any other city singled out in OT times like Sodom was. Marriage is the reflective of God's relationship to His people. To corrupt this basic tenent is not like any other sin.
So to be willing to accept homosexual partners in Christian ceremony that is designed to be typical of God's relationship to the church, is to invite Tobias to live in the Temple.
I pray those who desire to marry would be instructed what marriage means in the Christian context.

Bill

Brian is right in that we must be pastoral in our approach, however, we must never shy away from sharing God's truth.

Its astonishing that Brian thinks we need a council to determine if homosexuality is a sin. The Bible is very clear that it is a sin--as is all sex outside of marriage.

That doesn't mean we should make anti-homosexuality our main platform. We are hear to share the Word of God. But this Word does include the truth about sin.

Brian has to realize that we'll not be loved by everyone in the world. Jesus himself said, "They will hate you, because they hated me."

I think he also mischaracterizes the Christian conservatives who are concerned about this issue. They are good, honest, believers who feel that they should make their voice heard in society.

We should speak the truth in love--but we can't abandon the truth and only have love.

McLaren's position is not surprising given his basic disregard for the role of Scripture. Typical to much of his writing, he sets up a false "straw man" -- in this case attributing the view of homosexuality as being wrong to a political agenda rather than admitting that those who faithfully seek to follow God's Word see the Bible clearly setting forth homosexuality as a sin. Too, he posits the view that you either accept the homosexual viewpoint as valid or else you are a homophobic hateful person -- another false premise.
McLaren's assumptions and positions tend to be manipulative and disingenuous -- and, thus, dangerous. You can be loving, pastoral, and redemptive and still follow biblical mandates of truth. But then, I forget that McLaren tends to ask the Pilate question,"What is truth?" Jesus answered that once for Thomas. Perhaps one day, Brian will discover that same answer for himself.

In my congregation I see a multitude of sins represented. Adultery, Fornication, Lust, Child Abuse, Theft, Gossip, Slander, Favoritism, Drunkeness, Pride, even Homosexuality. They are not sins in abstract. They are present in real flesh and blood that sits before me and with me every Sunday morning. I can see the whites of their eyes, I know when I'm hitting someone in the heart.

It requires a sensitive spirit every week to bring both conviction and comforted as needed.
Two people might struggle with the same sin. One needs to recognize their action is sinful while the other still needs reminded their sin is forgiveable.

Homosexuality is no different then so many other sins. Those practicing homosexuality need the same grace Newton acknowledged when he wrote
"Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear, and Grace my fears relieved."

What those engaging in homosexual behavior need is what all of us with sinful behavior need: Grace and Truth.

If we deny the sinfulness of the behavior then we withhold the grace that can bring transformation. A surgeon's scapel both wounds and heals. The same is true of the two-edged sword we are called to wield. Our "emerging" leaders may not want to drop them just yet, they may still find them helpful.

Don't ever stop talking about homosexuality. It is SIN! No one will ever change that fact nor explain it away. God is the final authority and he has called it sin so don't back up, let up or shut up! God bless you for the courage to call sin what it is.

Right on, Brian! God's grace is not always black and white. It is just that, grace. I prefer to err on the side of grace rather than law. What is clearly b/w to one, may not be to another. that is why this discussion continues (endlessly.) I appreciate those who are open minded enough to say, "I believe it (whatever the "sin" is) is wrong. But I could be wrong." A moratorium is a time for discernment, not indecision. And discernment happens on God's time, not ours.

What Brain and many more pastors are doing and have done is become soft on sin. The message to any sinner is faith and repentance. Churches cannot and should not accept homosexuals practicing or still living the lifestyle nor should they accept a similar lifestyle of the hetrosexual. There is no doctrine in the Bible that condones sin, not one example. Brain is confused: Do not be decieved: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. (Gal 6:7-8 NIV)

"because I am a pastor, and pastors have learned from Jesus that there is more to answering a question than being right or even honest: we must also be ... pastoral. That means understanding the question beneath the question, the need or fear or hope or assumption that motivates the question. We pastors want to frame our answer around that need; we want to fit in with the Holy Spirit's work in that person's life at that particular moment. To put it biblically, we want to be sure our answers are "seasoned with salt" and appropriate to "the need of the moment" (Col. 4; Eph. 4)."

Absolutely!

"Even if we are convinced that all homosexual behavior is always sinful, we still want to treat gay and lesbian people with more dignity, gentleness, and respect than our colleagues do."

Yes!

"If we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for some homosexual relationships, we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex. We aren't sure if or where lines are to be drawn, nor do we know how to enforce with fairness whatever lines are drawn."

Not! The Bible and Church teaching are clear on this; we know where the lines are drawn, and we must have the courage to draw them -- without negating the first two points above.

"Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making pronouncements."

Jesus didn't make pronouncements ... but he did tell the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. He proclaimed forgiveness but did not grant license. We should do the same

"In the meantime, we'll practice prayerful Christian dialogue, listening respectfully, disagreeing agreeably. When decisions need to be made, they'll be admittedly provisional. We'll keep our ears attuned to scholars in biblical studies, theology, ethics, psychology, genetics, sociology, and related fields. Then in five years, if we have clarity, we'll speak; if not, we'll set another five years for ongoing reflection. After all, many important issues in church history took centuries to figure out. Maybe this moratorium would help us resist the "winds of doctrine" blowing furiously from the left and right, so we can patiently wait for the wind of the Spirit to set our course.

Not necessary. This has been clear since the time of Paul (New Testament) and Moses (Old Testament). It is settled; there is no "evolution" in doctrine because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever -- end of issue. See points 1-2 and 4.

"Being "right" isn't enough. We also need to be wise. And loving. And patient."

True ... but we must start by being right.

Brian is to be commended for wanting to avoid legalism and harshness and for wanting to see the church not offend unnecessarily. However, most all the evangelicals I know strive for the same clarity (on the Biblical issues) and compassion (for the people involved) that he seems to assume only he and a few others wish to see in the church. As the pastor of a church where many homosexuals came to Christ over the years, I find his analysis unnecesarily confusing ("we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex") and his appeal for a moratorium unwise. He does not speak for them or me in saying, "Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about homosexuality. We've heard all sides but no position has yet won our confidence . . ." The Biblical issues are clear; the application requires grace and wisdom. A moratorium would only confuse the faithul, disappoint the afflicted, and confuse those listening in much the same way as would a moratorium on adultery, wife abuse, alcoholism or any other sin. Let any moratorium be on our knees in prayer for the Lord's wisdom in graciously sharing the truth and setting captives free --- including ourselves from our own sins.

There always is a question in a question. The Pastor (Shepherd) leads the flock, protects the flock, feeds the flock. This was the perfect opportunity. Sheep mill only when there is no direction. No answer, no direction. By the way what's up with "emerging leaders." Sounds like a pride thing. I thought we were just called by God (Eph. 4:11)

I wonder how many of us have preached a good sermon on the "evils of capitalism" lately and how it feeds our christian soul with lust for wealth and greed. Or, how about "Democracy: Not a Biblical Concept".
The fact is, we have all kinds of Christians in our church who are sinning in all kinds of ways and all kinds of pastors choosing for one reason or another to ignore the sin.
I say let the gays in, live a Kingdom model before them and all the other sinners and let God do His transforming work.

I think we have a bad habit of selecting the sins we don't struggle with as our focus and we fall into the bad habit of classifying or caregorizing sin and sinners as being better or worse. The Bible doesn't recognize degrees of sin, as long as you aren't blaspheming the Holy Spirit. How many people would be at that wedding if we eliminated the cheaters, the liars, the gossips, The sinners? All sin is abhorent to God. He wants sinners to come to Him and be healed not turned away by our harsh words and unloving attitudes.

My denomination is being blown apart by this issue, and everytime I hear/read the words 'dialogue' or 'discussion', I cringe, because it's been used as a stalling tactic while more and more nonsense goes on. But I loved that Brian called for a halt to 'pronouncements', because it damages the church whenever someone jumps up and blasts homosexuals (or any other 'group'), without giving context to their message, or listening to the context of others. I'm pretty clear about what the Bible says, but I'm not so sure that we actually hear each other when we talk about it. I went to seminary in Berkeley, CA, and it doesn't get more liberal than that. I'm more conservative, but wanted to be open minded, so I tried to engage in dialogue. What I got was screaming, shrill diatribes that pigeon-holed my perspective just because I was a straight, white male. I wanted to learn, but I was told that I'd never change, so I wasn't worth talking to.

I guess I'd love to hear a little less from either side of the issue for five years to give the Holy Spirit room to speak. Still, small voices are hard to hear in a shouting match. And since we don't hear how the conversation ends between Brian and the couple, maybe lay off the guy. He asked the right question to start the relationship, which is the place to start. Nice article.

No matter what is politically correct or socially acceptable in 2006, God's Word is crystal clear - sin is sin and the wages of sin is death. Read Romans chapter 1 for a clear explanation of this issue. Homosexuality is an abomination - that's all there is to it.

But this does not mean that as Christians we have the right to pass judgment on people. We still need to hate the sin but love the sinner. We need to share the Gospel in its unadulterated form - to homosexuals and straight people alike. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We cannot condone homosexuality - but we still need to show them that Jesus Christ is willing to forgive them and set them free of their lifestyle. Hopefully they will repent and turn to serving Christ with body, soul and spirit. Thank God for His infinite mercy, love and grace.

Maybe it will take a homosexual couple asking Brian to marry them to finally know where he stands on the issue. Maybe he will have to tell them to wait five years until he is sure what the answer is.

Two thousand years of Christianity seems to be fairly clear on homosexuality, including other sexual sins. The idea that we need a time out is foolishness indeed. Not wanting to take things out of perspective, but doesn't this position seem to be the church of Laodicea.

Why is it so hard for some Christians to state that active, practicing homosexuality is wrong but the person needs to be loved towards the Lord? Yet they see no problem calling out divorce and adultery as being what they are, sin.

PuritanD

Your sensitivity, insight and love is evident in your article. To be pastoral is to be like Jesus who lays down his life for his sheep. And yes, we are all the sheep of God's pasture, the flock God guides whether that be hetero or homosexual individuals.
Grace to you as you continue to be a much needed
compassionate and thoughtful voice.

Brian suggested a "five-year moratorium on making pronouncements." I'm afraid that in five years the battle for our society (and many of our churches) will be lost. The war has been raging in my denomination for 35 years and we are just now beginning to see the light. And it has come about through the rejection of Christian dialogue with those who "don't know what we should think about homosexuality." What I think about it is irrelevant. It is what God has said that counts. The line of thinking in this commentary has been heard for many years in the United Methodist Church. And it has led to the near destruction of the denomination.

I am saddened that this point of view has been expressed by Leadership and CTI.

I belive that this is a delicate subject in that you shouldn't answer a question like this in the main aisle of your church with a newcomer but one that you should sit down and openly share not OUR own opion or ideas but what the word of God says. It is an abomination and as such should not be tolerated or ignored. If we want God to return to America we must return back to God and it is in these types of bullet dodging games that the church loses it's authority. We should not cower under any circumstance becasue we have the ultiamate authority and back-up on our side. The Word of Almighty Holy God.

Sure the Bible is clear, but the Bible is clear on many issues. The problem is that we are dealing with people, not issues. The couple's question was not about homosexuality, it was about their fathers. "Issues" are easy, But we are not to deal with issues. Let the politicians deal with issues. We are to deal with people. The lack of clarity comes in how that issue affects people. What do we do with it? We know what the truth is. The question isn't "what is the truth?" The question is "what do we do with the truth?" That is a far tougher and more slippery question, that indeed does need to be handled delicately, humbly, honstly, compassionately and, yes, patiently.

I don't think there's "a snowball's chance..." as they say, of getting a moratorium on this "discussion."
However, I strongly identify with Brian's feelings. Sometimes the clamor around us makes it very hard to hear the "still small voice." And sometimes the winds of opinion around us make it very difficult to sense the frequently gentler "wind of the Spirit."
Anytime you step into a polarized environment, the danger to your welfare increases with every second you fail to choose a side, but a spontaneous choice can be just as dangerous to your integrity!
I don't have a solution either, but it makes me feel better knowing I am not alone.

there are so many threads to this issue, some of which we have not even begun to breach such as what is judgment? etc. and I won't try to create out of thin air something that hasn't already been said, but just a comment on something that I've been doing that is more like confession:

I'm like most people and have considered this issue like "any other sin" and read it as such, but in reality that isn't true. Jesus died once, not in many varieties for increasingly nasty levels of sin. The reality is that this issue is only like any other sin until we are contextually involved in it, which in some ways makes it like "any other sin." I oppose abortion but if my daughter's life is at stake because of her baby...what is the 'absolute' for that?Brian's somewhat "confused" approach is really refreshing, considering the tendency of any recognized speaker to attempt to speak in absolute terms intended to be universally true for even the most situational idea.

Let's be honest: it's easier to critique Brian than to write the article ourselves from our perspective and read it to someone of a homosexual persuasion--would they long to know God by virtue of what we present to them? Is our role anything more than that?

I confess I don't know if my article would be helpful in that person's life, and I like Brian hesitate to write it. Maybe I'm a backwards flip-flopper but in all honesty are we really ready to speak in absolute terms in ALL situations?

peace-
c.k.

While I agree that pastoral sensitivity is a valuable thing and needs to be excercised towards homosexuals this does not preclude us from speaking out on the issue. I am not sure who exactly Mclaren is speaking for, but the Roman Church, for example has tolerated gay men in ministry, read, studied, and written on the subject for years. The conclusion: It is disorder. The Episcopal Church USA has done the same thing: the result is a fracture of the communion because of the relativising of scripture that must take place to give homosexual behaivour legitimacy.

I repect Mr. McLaren's opinion on homosexuality. However, one's opinion must not be an alternative to God's Word. The Church's stand on homosexuality is that it is a sin, period. Just as lying, cheating, stealing, and other sexual immoralities are sins. As a society, we tend to look at some sins as worse than others. However, the truth of the matter is, the wage of sin is death. We are falling into the trap of tolerance. Remember the Samaritan on the well. Jesus was clear when He brought her sin into light. He did not condemn her, He simply said, "go and sin no more. We are to be accepting of the sinner, not the sin. If we need five years to figure out how we feel on this matter, then, we are either not reading scripture and/or not praying as we should. Remember our focus is to win souls for Christ with a clear band concise message. It is,then, the job of the Holy Spirit to change those lives once they have accepted Him. In the meantime, let us pray for God's wisdom and for mercy and forgiveness for all those who fall short of the Glory of God of which, I am the first.

Brian's call for a moratorium IS courageous. The easy thing to do in the christian community today is to jump on the war wagon and pretend that this sin is somehow greater than all or many others. The church does need to make a clear stand on issues of morality, but that has not usually been effective when done with judgemental pronouncements and intolerant/impersonal rants. Christ dealt with the individual, as should we. Christ dealt with sin, as should we. Christ listened, cared, and offered hope, as should we.

Clarence stated, "Homosexuals have not only infiltrated the church, and but have also ascended the heights of leadership and once in place have setout to lead others away from what 'The WORD' has to say about their sinful ways." Let's get real! Sinners have infiltrated the church at every level, and this is done in full view and design of God. He didn't send His son to die and reach a bunch of holy-rollers who never sinned anyway. Sin infiltrates our lives, and we need to deal with it, in honest, and personal ways. How does homosexuality become a more significant corruption of a 'basic tenet' of God's design in marriage more than any other of the 10 commandments or other warnings of sin in scripture? It is a sin, and should be honestly dealt with as such, but is not a greater threat than many other sins that run rampant within our church walls and homes already. I don't hear Brian saying to stop talking about it to anyone, anywhere, just to stop making it such a forefront issue as the lost come looking at what Christianity is all about.

Thanks Brian.

As I read Brian's article, I found myself nodding a lot. I agree that this issue is too politicized. Conservative Christians are in danger of winning the political war while losing a multitude of would-be Christians who are turned off by what they see as hatred and prejudice. I love the way he handled the "gay" question by digging deeper. But my nodding stopped about halfway through.

I am very unsettled by his call for a five year moratorium. The world is opening up more and more to homosexuality and the forces behind this are affecting the church, too. We are on a slippery slope. Christian leaders need to be a voice for righteousness and truth (Jesus was able to do this lovingly and pastorally without offending people). Is Brian really asking us to be silent as our flocks and communities look to us for direction and understanding and as secular voices get louder and louder? We may be silent, but the push toward acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle in our world and churches won't rest. The idea to lay back and do nothing while such a spiritual battle wages is at best absurd and at worst a complete shirking of God-given responsibility.

Brian, make up your mind. This is an issue that has been raging for years. If you're waiting for some new revelation from a Bible scholar, psychologist, or ethicist, forget it. We have more than enough information. If you haven't made up your mind about God's view on homosexuality, how we can best articulate it, and how we can faithfully minister to those struggling with it, then by all means follow your own advice and don't speak about it.

I appreciate McLaren's ability to step back and take a moment to consider the question before answering. We as Pastors sometimes forget that we are called by God to help others understand what being a Christian is. I have no problem in speaking frankly and answering this or any other question posed by people but I like to remember how the Pharisees tried to catch Jesus up in some legalistic snares and He , as our example, deflected the issues back to those who are trying to set Him up. I like to understand why the question is asked,too. If we follow the Lord's example we will not go wrong.

Brian, there's a place for you: it's called the PCUSA and supposedly we're doing exactly what you suggest... a 5-year moratorium while we study, pray, and practice sensitivity. You may want to see how it turns out before following, though...

Yes, let us ignore the problem and maybe it will go away. Evangelical Christians did not start this "war of words" but now that it has come into the open we must take a stand. Yes, homosexuals are people and God loves all people but I do not think that homosexuality and Christianity are compatible words if the homosexual offender sees no wrong in their actions. God gives repentance to repentant sinners. No repenting, no repentance. Period.

Understanding the "reason" and "importance" of the question? Sure.

Responding in a way that is both gentle and shows respect? Absolutely.

Pretending that God has not made His will known on this subject? UNTHINKABLE.

Yes, yes, yes!! I agree wholeheartedly! Those who think they heard Brian saying that either one accepts homosexuals or one is a hateful homophobe missed it: he wasn't saying that - he's saying that the world thinks that. And therefore, once they get a whiff of a negative viewpoint towards homosexuality, they think they know all of our positions on everything (AND that we are militant about all of them). Whose fault is that? Well, maybe it's a media problem, or a political problem, or maybe Christians have brought it on themselves, but what Brian is saying is, "that's the way it is." And since it IS that way, we would do well not to lead with our chins. Let people get to know us before we tell them the hard truth; get to know THEM before we start blessing them with our doctrine -- let them get to know JESUS first. Anyone who just has to tell someone that homosexuality is wrong in their first conversation with them is missing the point.

I have read Brian's comment. I sincerely believe that since the Bible lables homosexuality as an abomination, we should be firm. To play with this situation is to fall into the trap of the enemy of our souls. He through the playing on words and phrases tries to twist the scriptures so that they will not seem clear but alway leaving room for debate. It reminds me of how the devil tried to twist the scriptures when dealing with Jesus in the widerness during his fasting time trying to catch him at his weakest moment. The Bible emphatically states that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever. What he stated in his word, is what he means. We cannot allegorize the Scriptures. We must take them literally. As it was in Sodom and Gomorrah and throughout time, the act of homosexuality and lesbianism is wrong and will remain wrong. And we cannot justify it in no way. God's word is founded upon truth. This is the enemy's way: to keep us constantly debating over a subject that God has already given the answer. And the reason we keep debating it is because we who call ourselves Christian are not really sound in what we believe ourselves. We cannot play with Satan. His power was broken at Calvary. Therefore he has no power. But he can only suggest and seduce. We must come to the conclusion that sin is sin and must be dealt with according to God's standards. Yes, we love the sinner but we must hate his ways and show him that it is only through the Gospel of Jesus Christ that a man can be saved.

It's very clear to me that the Bible is very clear on a whole host of sins, including sexual ones. Furthermore, I see that the Bible clearly treats sexual sin very seriously. They include sodomy, fornication, adultery, abortion and divorce. Whilst the reasons for the gravity of sexual sin are something I don't fully understand, the Bible explicitly states and clearly portrays the seriousness. So, the question for me is not whether these things are sin. The question for me is how do I respond to a surrounding relativistic culture and people from that culture that are openly contentious with the Bible's statements and the church's historical stance on sexual sin. In John's gospel, there are two clear interactions Jesus has with people actively practicing sexual sin. The first is the Samaritan woman (the woman at the well) in John 4 and and the second is the adultress in John 8. In John 4, Jesus makes it very plain that he knows all about the Samaritan woman's sinful sexual behavior. Nevertheless, Jesus never condemns the Samaritan woman, quotes the law or calls for her stoning. Instead, Jesus begins a relationship building dialog with her about spiritual things, subsequently stays in her town for two days and many from her town come to believe in him as the Christ. In John 8, Jesus refuses to get embroiled in an argument with the scribes and the Pharisees about whether to stone a woman caught in adultery. Mosaic law prescribed it, but Roman law forbade it since it reserved punishment of death to the Roman government. This is only one of several clashes between religon and culture into which Jesus refused to get drawn. There is something other than sexual sin, however, that Jesus consistently directly confronts and condemns. That something is self-righteous, self-justifying, arrogant and judgemental behavior, particularly by the Jewish political and religious leaders of his day. And, lest we think this is just for the leaders, Jesus thought poorly of the prodigal son's older brother's behavior too. So, the question still remains. Should I model my behavior after Jesus' behavior or after members of Westboro Baptist in Topeka KA?

I think that Pastor Brian needs to hang up his pastoral position if " he isn't clear" on this subject. The Bible is more than clear that homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord and also the Bible talks about the person that is double-minded. He evidently is more concerned with being politically correct than Biblically correct. This isn't saying we have to be cruel or avoid these people. It is saying we have to love them just like Jesus would do. Love the person, hate the sin. Homosexuality is a sin any way you look at it! We need to be more concerned with the way we deal with this issue and make sure that Jesus can be seen in our actions and not beat around the bush when asked about it. If the Bible says it is wrong then there are no two ways about it. It is wrong. Makes me wonder what else he isn't SURE of. We have to stand firm in these last days. Either your with Christ or your against him. Make up your mind and stand up for it or you'll fall for anything.

Should we respond with God's word (the Bible), or should we respond with the "Word" (Jesus)? (I guess it depends upon which one you worship...word or Word). Far as I can tell, Jesus called sin what it was, but he never condemned the sinner. Really, the only condemnation that he had was for the religious folks who made it so very difficult for the normal person to stand before God. A lesson for the righteous?

The world would be better served by Christians that took the time to understand, not an issue, but a person's heart before making pronouncements. I'm a pastor, and I can't tell you how many times I might have misrepresented Jesus by my judgmentalism and lack of empathy. As far as I can tell, Jesus said to 'judge not lest you be judged'. I don't wish to be judged for my sins (they are many and diverse).

If my job as pastor is to call out sins and hold the sinner accountable...shouldn't I be going after the greedy first? How about that guy that just drove up to Sunday worship in his $50,000 SUV that I know for a fact doesn't tithe. I think I might just do like Jesus and go after the self-righteous with a vengence. Or maybe I'll just do a lot less talking, a lot more understanding, and a lot more of pointing people to the Word.

"If we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for some homosexual relationships, . . ."? What could that possibly be?

What a refreshing article! I am as pleased that he has not been burned at the stake in the preceding blogs.
I particularily liked the statement "Even if we are convinced that all homosexual behavior is always sinful, we still want to treat gay and lesbian people with more dignity, gentleness, and respect than our colleagues do." What a radical thought - we could be more loving that those who are not followers of Jesus!
Tozer talked about the need for a baptism of clear thinking. Bring it on!

I appreciated the emphasis on listening and finding out the basis for the question. One sentence really bothered me though. When the author wrote "if we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for homosexual relationships..." I bristled. I believe the church can be gentle and sensitive and work with people where they are at. I think we have failed at learning to do that while presenting truth. Our culture continues to roll out a dangerous lie, that homosexuality is something you are born with...it is determined at birth and just embrace it. In our highly sexualized society young people are being sucked into this lie and they are not hearing that it is not true and that others with such feelings have found their way out. Thanks for letting me blow off steam.

Interesting discussion. As a pastor for the past 22 years, I have had hours and hours of heart to heart talks with gays in different occasions. I have come to love them as friends and have sought God's guidance in teaching them God message of grace.

One thing I learned in all those counseling. There were gays who decided to repent of their homosexual sexual acts and there were those who totally disagreed with me. I have learned that in most cases, they want the church to declare that homosexual acts are not sin as long as they are done within a homosexual marriage. They will agree that it becomes sin if they become unfaithful to their gay partner.

What I have learned is this: the gay movement wants nothing less than total acceptance of their lifestyle.

Question is: Is homosexual behavior biblical or not? If scripture is our basis, then the answer is clear... homosexual behavior is condemned by the scriptures. If we go out of the scriptures, as many liberal Christian theologians do, then you do need a five year moratorium... and end up unbiblical.

Seems to me that there are a fair number of confused pastors out there, a little scary really. Let me cut to the chase with two points. Mclaren's comment "Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about homosexuality" is sad, as the Bible is explicitly clear in numerous passages and the reasons for this prohibition are also clear to those who think with a biblical worldview. Read your Bible Mclaren.

The second point is more interesting. What do I do when people ask me of our view on homosexuality, as many do? I think Mclaren is to be commended by asking questions in response to questions and finding out where the questioner is coming from first, it's what I do. Then, if the person is homosexual, I tell them that they will be loved and accepted in our church, which is true. Our church is full of unchurched, lost people on a journey to find God. I believe that when a practicing homosexual draws near to God, the Holy Spirit will convict them of their sin and they will repent and be saved. We draw the line at church membership. You cannot become a church member and practice a sinful lifestyle. In our new members class, we teach on 1 Cor. 6:9-11 which has a lot of lifestyles, including homosexuality, that exclude you from the kingdom of God. However, the good news in verse 11 is that God can set people free from their bondage to sin. Love the sinner, let God work in their life and hate the sin which destroys and separates them from God.

I am a pastor in Ontario Canada and have the legal option of conducting or not conducting the marriage of two gay/lesbian persons. I would be interested to know if Brian, if asked, would conduct the marriage of two same sex persons. I don't think they would wait five years for an answer.

Thank you for this example of a wise and deeply compassionate approach to a divisive issue. I know the Old Testament is crystal clear on adultery. But Jesus did not quote scripture to the woman taken in adultery or the woman at the well. He did not quote scripture to Zacchaeus or Levi. He embodied scripture - lived it before them. God help us to do the same.
My daughter told us three years ago that she is lesbian. This was two months after I began my first pastorate. I immediately told the elders and we have journeyed and prayed together since. It has helped us all to see that this is not merely a theological issue - one where people take sides and shout opponents down. We are not dealing only with issues. We are seeking to love people. We need to seek beyond the proof texts and find the heart of God. I sincerely want my life to inform my theology and not dictate it. I am still in agony over how to help my daughter open more to God. My agony has brought me to my knees - at least it is doing a work of transformation in me. I love my daughter and I love my church and I seek to walk with them in compassion and understanding. God help me.

I agree that Jesus gave the best pastoral and prophetic example of all for us to emulate. As our Perfect Example, Jesus said two things which I think yield the clarity Brian et al seek.

First, Matthew 5:17 (KJV), "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." The Law is very clear that homosexuality is not only a sin, but an abomination (a word Webster defines as "extreme disgust and hatred: loathing"). I believe Jesus meant that the demands of the Law remain unchanged, but He has met the Law's demands with His substitutionary sinlessness, which God the Father, by His grace, has interposed between us and the Law to save us from the requisite retribution of the Law. This may be partly why Jesus did not personally address the issue of homosexuality in the Gospel accounts. The issue simply did not present itself, and there was no need to bring it up either, because in everyone's mind it was, to coin a phrase, "settled Law".

Second, John 8:11 (KJV), "And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." Here, a woman caught in the very act of adultery -- also a sin -- is dragged into the holy Temple where Jesus not only forgives and releases her, though Jesus was the only One present qualified by His sinlessness to condemn her, but He also challenged her to repent, meaning, I believe, that she was to eschew not only adultery, but ALL sin foreverafter. I believe this same standard of grace encompassing our confession of and repentance from sin may be applied across the board to ALL human sin, whether adultery, or fornication, or thievery, or, yes, even homosexuality.

I will welcome anyone into Christian fellowship who wishes to confess and repent of ALL sins, but I will not give tacit approval to ANY sin by remaining silent about it in order to "be more pastoral" or to avoid hurting someone's feelings. What kind of caring and compassionate pastor would I be if I let one of my flock wander down "the broad way that leads to destruction" (Matthew 7:13-14) without at least attempting to rescue him/her? Like the father who spares the rod of correction (Proverbs 13:24), I would be demonstrating hate rather than care and compassion.

Homosexuality, or sin in general, is not an area in need of "a moratorium on making pronouncements", or even in need of clarity, insofar as the Word of God is concerned, but rather, it needs MORE emphasis in a time when even so-called Christian leaders "call evil good, and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20), whether out of a misguided sense of tolerance or political correctness or just plain ignorance or misinterpretation of the Word of God. If anything, Brian has spotlighted the need for MORE public pronouncements by pastors and prophets alike that the TRUE Christian Church stands for obedience and faithfulness to the inspired, written Word of God and the pure example of Jesus the Christ. As a caring and compassionate pastor, that is exactly what I intend to do.

It seems that all sides of the issue have been "blogged". I only have one comment. I think that the Holy Spirit is very clear on the issue. Brian "kinda" elevated his status a little high when he made the decision he would make depend on where it was "good to us and the Holy Spirit." His approach to look for the question behind the question is correct. And you do not have to give your complete doctrinal statement before you find out what the real issues are behind the question. And you must always be pastoral but never condone sin in the process. It's not easy folks. I deal with this issue a lot as a prison chaplain.

Brian and others in the postmodern church movement accuse baby boomers of "getting into bed" with modernism, while Brian's article in Leadership is clearly the postmodern church doing the same, just with a different cultural philosophy. Brian's call for a moratorium on pronouncing homosexual behavior a sin is clearly influenced more by a postmodern view of homosexuality than by a scriptural one. What's next on the moratorium list, any consentual sex outside marraige, abortion, anything that postmoderns can't come to a concensus about?

Thank you Brian.

It is a wise person who deliberates before speaking, and in the absense of thinking does not speak. The scholars who thought deeply before writing are those whom we rely upon most for guidance and clarification of the Word. I suggest we do the same.

Unfortunately, it is those in the christian church who are highly polarized, without cause, who receive most of the air time.

Most ethical issues should be examined with a heart of compassion and hope before any other filters are applied.

Brian has done these things.

Many who have written here claim that the bible says that homosexuality is sin. But notice what they can't claim. They can't claim that the Bible tells us explicitely what to do about it in our communities. They can't claim that we should respond in a particular way if a homosexual couple desires us to marry them. The Bible is authoritative, but not the people who wrote it, many of whom struggled with their own particular biases. People must deal with homosexuals in our culture, not books. I like the wisdom of one comment which said we should take the five years to stop the rhetoric and be quiet for awhile so we can all corporately listen to what the Spirit is saying NOW to the churches. We get too hung up as Evangelicals on what He was saying 2000 years ago to a culture that had a higher rate of homosexuality (Rome) than our present culture has. What, for instance, does the Bible explicitely tell us to do when voting for candidates, one of whom is loving and honest and homosexual, and the other is a womanizer, a charlatan and accepts bribes? The question of whether or not homosexuality is wrong is one of many, many, many questions about homosexuality, very few of which are answered by the Bible, even in general form. This is what Brian is confused by I believe.

I'm curious if we are listening to how we phrase our responses. We seem to be for or against Brian's approach. Isn't that part of the problem. We are setting ourselves up "for" or "against" and missing the person in front of us?

I appreciate Brian's perspective. I can think of many pastoral care issues AWAY from homosexuality I could use this advice for. I believe the Bible is clear on homosexuality. Sometimes that clarity clouds our compassion.

I see that someone has responded that "scripture is clear" on this. I don't think it is. And I have spent close to 25 years reflecting in the biblical tradition, in conversation with a host of folks, and prayer & discernment. I appreciate Brian's caution. But I think the culture around us may be closer to the mark of God's intention and the scriptural message than that. Let me be clear about myself, over the past 15 years I have celebrate in worship three union ceremonies for gay and lesbian couples. At a time in my life when my wife left me and not many folks were responding in care for my pain, a minister who had just come out of the closet offered me the deepest pastoral care. I would agree, let's let go of the pronouncements. Let's engage in conversation. And I am part of that conversation as an ordained minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for 31 years. My life was born anew or "from above" 15 years ago as I begin to meet Jesus again for the first time, as Phil Yancey puts it. My experience with gay and lesbian people has often brought a deep spiritual presence of the reality of God in the face of some other kinds of Christians who are focused on morality but have not a clue about the gift of the spirit.

I believe it is prececisely a pastor's role to clarify where scripture (and hopefully the congregation) stands on the issue of sin. To apologize for or minimize the biblical view of any sin makes one a party to the sinner's transgression.

I am concerned however, when church leaders focus in on one particular sin because it is deemed "safe." What I mean is that it's OK to pick on a certain group of sinners because it's popular or you know you won't offend anyone in your congregation anyway. In short this is pastoral cowardice and not in keeping with the teachings of Christ.

Show me a Pastor who is equally passionate about the sin of homosexuality as the sins of gluttony or greed. Show me a Pastor who opposes gossip with the same passion that he opposes drunkeness or sexual immorality.

Cherry-picking safe stances against sins nobody will hold you accountable for is not biblical and heaven help me or any other pastor who engages in this practice.

An excellent article giving us some guidelines and insights in dealing with this issue- even though I don't necessarily agree with him on the 5 year moratorium. There are some guidelines in scripture that we don't need to wait 5 years to understand and articulate.

Let me identify myself at least this much. I am consevative theologically and politically. I am a pastor in a denomination that takes a stand against homosexuality and I agree with that stand. But in my mind Brian is not wrestling with the issue of homosexuality but with the difficult question of how do we develope relationships with sinners so we can tell them the glorious message of God's love and salvation. If we condemn them from the get go they leave as unaware of that truth as they came. Many people in the world today view Christians today not as the bearers of the Good News but as those who proclaim "God hates homosexuals." I've seen the signs myself and that is as big a lie from the enemy as any he has ever propigated. The real message that the church must proclaim is that Grace is greater than all my sin.....even the sin that allows me to condemn someone for one sin while I excuse myself for another. Is homosexuality wrong? The Bible makes it perfectly clear that it is.....but my task is to love the sinner in such a way that they see the love of Jesus in me and seek his forgiveness on the merits of how he has forgiven me of my sin and will so the same for them. In the church we have our favorite sins.....it used to be don't smoke, don't chew and don't go with girls that do.....the sins have changed but the judgemental attitudes haven't. In the words of Charles Sheldon....and the bracelet...WWJD?

Whew;

I don't know if any one will wade through the blog to get to my 2 cents worth or not, however here it comes.

I happen to be a Pastor in that evil bastion of crankiness known as The Southern Baptist Convention.

That said, we need to be as Biblical as humanly possible. The Bible said for us to reject homosexuality. It also says to convert the sinner.

Enough said?

Amen

Having received a friend dying from HIV/AIDS into our congregation I have been through this struggle firsthand. My friend still loved his former partner (also suffering from AIDS)as a person he once shared his life with, even though he had repented of his sin and come to realize the depravity of that lifestyle. He did not want to reject his former partner, but rather lead him to the grace and love of Jesus that he was now experiencing. We (the church) responded the same way. It is certainly possible, and necessary, to love sinners like Jesus did, while exposing sin. Of course, we call them to turn from any sinful behavior, standing ready to invest ourselves in helping them do so.

I think that we need to tell all divorced and remarried persons in our congregations that they must stop committing adultery and return to their first marriages. That would be the only way they could prove that they had repented and be worthy to continue to sit with the dozen or so left in the pews.
It is interesting that we are silent about "our" sin and so focused on the sin of "those" people. I am amazed at the rigid certitude and conviction I hear in these comments that people know what God knows and have perfect understanding of scriptures written thousands of years ago, with the nuances of words, and the layers of culture that are completely foreign to Western thought. I hear a lot of fear and if our hearts are fearful, our ears and minds are closed to the Spirit. The Jewish authorities of Jesus day thought they were the experts in what the scriptures meant. Their certitude kept the poor and anyone who couldn't measure up out of the temple. Whatever happened to faith and our belief that only God knows the heart? Could we just love each other and leave the rest to God, or is that too scary? What would happen if we actually let God rule?

Calling the Bible the root of prejudice toward gays and lesbians is hypocritical and dishonest at best. Stupid arguments about this or that interpretation of a biblical passage are completely meaningless.s

The problem I have with any of the discussions about homosexuality and the Bible is that that they always ignore the fact that the people involved are already prejudiced against gay and lesbian people before they even know what the Bible says about homosexuality.

That means that the prejudice is the result of something other than having just read the Bible.

It's deep-seated, almost instinctual. As such it does not follow or reject Biblical canon.

For most people, the Bible, just like the Koran, only re-affirms their pre-existing prejudices toward gay and lesbian people. It does not create them. But it is used to justify them.

Just as the Bible, the Koran, etc., have been used to justify arguments both for and against racism, misogyny, slavery, etc.

But just because prejudice, which is after all simply a feeling, is deeply seated or even instinctual, it does not mean that it is morally correct or incorrect or derived from a logically reasonable thought process. It's an unthinking, atavistic response to someone or something that is different. Whatever that difference is.

This is the source of not only anti-gay prejudice, but every other unthinking prejudice that exists. The dark side of the human soul.

What I find hypocritical about most of those that call themselves Christians is that they tell people who are gay or lesbian that their most deeply held feelings of identity are inherently wrong, a sin, and they challenge us to examine and control or even remove those feelings. That identity. That person. Commit an abortion of personality as it were.

But they are unwilling to take that challenge themselves and to at least acknowledge the true source of their prejudices toward us.

It's not the Bible's fault that people are prejudiced toward gays and lesbians, it's the peoples fault.

So put the Bible to the side of the dinner table. It is blameless and cannot be used as self-justification for anti-gay feelings. What Joe Carter likes to call the "ick factor". You alone are responsible. Your "salt" has already been corrupted before you have even had a chance to stray from Biblical teaching.

I of course, prefer pepper. Well, and Garlic salt. And Trader Joe's 21 seasoning salute can't be beat.

Thank you.
This issue has been used as a litmus test. As if we are more concerned with identifing people as friend or foe. Answering pastorally as Brian did is not being soft on sin. Why are we more concerned with being right than with finding the right way to lead people into a life full of grace and truth? The gospel is not a test, but an invitation into a life giving relationship.

So....did Brian ever answer the couple's question? I read where he got together with them later in the week. When he did, was the question answered directly, or did he deflect the question by talking about the difficulty of the issue?

If you follow the cyclical apostacy of historic Israel, you realize that when the leaders no longer spoke a clear message, then confusion led to wanton idolatry and disregard for the principles of God. McClaren should take a moratorium on speaking about homosexuality and utilize his quite time to study God's Word. Lose the voice of the father and lose the family. Lose the voice of the prophet and lose the nation. Time to speak truth in love.

The Bible Is clear on the act of homosexuality, it is a sin. We need to treat homosexuals as we treat alcoholics, drug users, or any sinner, with love and understanding. We need to get away from all of the hype and treat this sin as we treat any other. We need to love the person. This doea not in any way say that we condone the act. It says we are doing as our Lord did. We can help people escape from homosexua;ity by sharing the gospel with them. It will be by the power of the Holy Spirit that they will fimd release. The church is not for the3 saved but the unsaved.

It seems to me that the apostle Paul was being "pastoral" in his letters to the churches, but answered the question of whether or not homosexuality was a sin very clearly. He said in Romans that God gave these people over to a depraved mind to do what is not natural. How more plain can you get than that? Other Scriptures say that homosexuals will not get into heaven very clearly. I would be more concerned about being biblical than your definition of "pastoral". Find some courage somewhere and be biblical. Tell people what they need to know instead of pandering to what they want to hear!

Brian writes: "Usually when I'm asked about this subject, it's by conservative Christians wanting to be sure that we conform to what I call "radio-orthodoxy," i.e. the religio-political priorities mandated by many big-name religious broadcasters." Is it really necessary to take this kind of jab? I think not. Prophets and priests are both a part of God's economy. We need both. We need to listen to both.

This was an unfinished story. What did he tell the couple? I would of told the couple that while the bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin. The church is full of sinners. In fact we all are sinners. And because of that the parents would be treat with respect and that the church would engulf them in love. It's cheesy but love the sinner hate the sin. I would then begin praying that myself and members of the church would have a positive effect on the live's of these men and they would turn away from sin.

I just preached a message titled "The Gay Culture, Call...and Proper Christian Response" at my church. Having preached for 23 years, it's still amazing to me that sermons like this were hardly necessary not so many years ago.

Here's truth (the one Brian seems to have forgotten): our pro-gay culture and society has grown to such an extent that to even mention homosexuality as--gasp!--sin, labels us haters, and even worse, not just by the liberal media, Hollywood, etc., but by liberal "anything goes" churches. Not wanting to be considered in such a negative light, churches and pastors by the truckload are all of a sudden troubled by black and white scriptures that were never questioned by the Church until recently. Mercy, grace, love? Of course, to every sinner--that's a big duh! (After all, that's what all of us receive from God each day). But 5-year moratoriums, increased 'tolerance' (buzz word for anything goes), and a willingness to blame the hated Religious Right for trying to hang on and promote--without shame or apology--real Bible doctrine smacks of a serious theological 'cave in'...the same type that is destroying the Mainlines.

Folks, absolutes are created by God, not by you, me, the other bloggers, or Brian. And, if they're clearly described in His Word, it's not just our duty, but our CALL to proclaim them, regardless of how others--even those who also claim Christ--criticize us, and ultimately, God's Word.

My Friend - I can't believe this! I reckon you get 10 out of 10 for wisely holding off before you replied, but to say "You don't know what you really think", you may as well say you don't know what you think about communion, or Sundays, or good works, faith, or anything else that gets a clear bit of scripture given to it. I mean, from beginning to end the Bible is clear. To be sure, you don't write anyone off nor ignore or get rid of them... but, Christ's basic message is "I came to set you free", so that's your message to your church. No one's under any illusion that continual pornography is acceptable to a Christian, so why would something like homosexuality be? Your dilemma I think is not whether it is sin or not, but rather how to handle it in your church.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they (homosexuals to) might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent. At first I wanted to disagree with Brian, but it is eternal life that Jesus came to offer us and that is what we need to offer also not just to a few but to all. I underlined the word might because isn’t it unusual that the all powerful Jesus Christ used the word might in the opening of this verse “they might know thee”. No one will change or give up something for something they know nothing of. They will only change or give something up until they know something about it. Now back to might, not every one will want to know about the true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. But for those who do (including homosexuals), we need to teach them about Jesus Christ and what he expects from us and them so they might know the true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent.

Scripture speaks very clearly regarding this subject as well as how we are to treat people who are in the midst of such a struggle. We are to love them, and reach out to them in His love. I find it disconcerting that there is such ambiguity on either of these subject. Scripture is clear on how we are to see sin and how we are to see sinners. They are two entirely different concepts.

We need to focus more on what scripture teaches and less on our opinion and experiences from within this world. The world is changing, scripture will never change.

Rick

Sounds like the old situation ethics to me

Hum? Wow? Is Brian saying "Let's take a break from God's Word?" Though this man intriques and challenges me in many of his writings, just not always sure how and when to apply his emerging trends. He is trying to make "Christianity" cool? Let's tell the truth in love. (Eph 4:15) Tough issue, but then God's Word (not man) takes on such issues. Take heed!

Brian,
Allow me to say "Thank-You" for putting this into words. I grow so weary of being seen as "wishy-washy" when approaching this or other issues from a pastoral perspective. I think your approach would greatly raise the level of conversation without loosing touch with the Bible or the people who read it - especially if the entire community agreed to approach it this way.

I think there are certain issues that Scriptures are very clear about. Homosexuality is a sin and so are lying, adultery, stealing etc. The issue that many of us are struggling with, is, how to hate the sin AND love the sinner. We are so often confronted with so much hatred to the sin AND sinner that we are have in the process sinned and committed self-righteousness, pride, lack of love etc. We need to go back to scriptures to see how Jesus loved the sinner but not the sin. How did He show compassion to the prostitutes, the outcasts, tax collectors and drew them to Himself without condoning their actions? This is what we need learn and teach our people in the churches. We need to learn, accept and practice GRACE.

Wow - you don't know what the Bible says about homosexuality. Get out of the ministry now.

As a pastor I am not a postition to judge, Jesus is the judge, and I am weary of those who want to define homosexuality as a sin. The Bible is addressing specific circumstances, not the lifestyle as a whole. Those who are gay, are not all the same, some live quiet lives, committed to serving God, living in a faithful relationship and who are important members of society.

"we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex." I had to check to see if I was reading John Kerry.
The biblical references are clear and the pastoral ramifications are commanded. Homosexuality is destructive to our humanity and we love people so much that we will be honest and tell them that their path is destructive to their very being. If they are unbelievers we love them, share with them, help them, go to their house and eat with them in order to bring the reality of the good news to their life. If they are believers we are to confront in love and if necessary follow the instructions of Jesus in Matt 18. We do not need 5 or 10 years to think and to study the situation. Some people may not have 5 or 10 years (depending on ones theology) while we fail to carry out the clear instructions of scripture.

Still, we need not abandon or soft peddle our convictions. I have found it effective to simply point out that I do have my convictions, but that for the time being it would be better served to get to know one another. People listen better in the context of a relationship. Once people know our heart we are in a position to give them a piece of our mind.

Perhaps I'm not as enlightened as my emerging brethren, but I don't see the need to vacillate for 5 years about an issue the Bible makes crystal clear. It's not "radio-orthodoxy" to say that homosexual behavior is sin; it is biblical. I cannot join the McClaren fan club over this article and applaud his openmindedness. A five-year moratorium on homosexuality is like praying for guidance about whether one should cheat on his spouse. The issue is already settled. It is not forward-thinking, openminded or culturally relevant to leave the question hanging; it is disobedience. Compassion has been conspicuously missing in the Christian response to homosexuality. Of that there is no doubt. But we need not overcompensate for excesses by ignoring the truth. It is not compassionate to condemn a person for their sin; neither is it compassionate to affirm them in it. If the author's motivation for taking a temporarily neutral position is to keep the peace in a congregation divided over the issue, then he is guilty of cowardice. (I doubt this is the case)If he is genuinely unsure of his position, then I hope he discovers the truth and has the courage to communicate it with kindness.

So Brian, although they might not be the big issues for today: how do you feel about polygamy, cohabitation, or sacred non-marital sex? We all agree that sex shouldn't comodify people, but perhaps it could be something to unite them for a part of their journey, such that God would be glorified. Don't you think we should get beyond our narrow traditional conceptions of the structure of "marriage"? Many of those don't even work anyway. Thoughts? Comments?

This issue is difficult because it involves the question of identity. Can you tell a gay person that they can never live out who they are? But the bible is quite clear on this matter. We as christians need to listen to God. He knows how difficult we think this is, and he wants to help. He will help us to be good samatians, and to be clear on what is right. In Norway the bishops ans scholars have debated this issue for a few years. They have now concluded: They disagree - both views must be accepted!! I don't think extra time will help here. We need to tell people what God says in his word - in the end that's what counts.

Principles of Bible interpretation teach us that silence on a matter does not imply approval thereof. In the same way, McLaren' silence on same-sex sex should not be interpreted as approval.

People trapped in homosexual sin are in need of a saviour not a change of behaviour.

In my preaching, I have always followed Biblical principles when it comes to calling people to God's better way. In no way do I place homosexuality as a greater sin than say, adultery or lying, but nonetheless, the Bible is clear on this matter; it is wrong. However, let us also remember that Jesus tended to rub the moral right, the wrong way, and on many occasions. There is a well known passage in the Scriptures that would be translated as thus in 2006; "Look at Jesus... sitting there in the pub, eating with gays and prostitutes..." Love and compassion by all means... but truth as written in the Divine Word, always! It's not a case of being politically correct but rather a case of following God's leadings in a way that Jesus would; love the sinner but hate the sin!

What Brian shares is alright but he doesn't want to let himself GO BIBLICAL in his statement. It would have been nice if he had EXEGETED I Corinthians 6:9 through 11 instead of his EISEGESIS from Brian 1:1... The "such were some of you" gives context for the regeneration and renewal process for all who have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Two points- first, it's clear that the underlying purpose behind McLaren's article was not to answer the question or finish the story but to engage the reader in thinking and discussion. Mr. McLaren that is why I love to read your work. Please keep writing and in so doing continue to spur us on to think and to pray before we speak and act.

Secondly, I like to add something more to his call for all to think/reflect, speak/dialogue on the subject-- and that is to love in action. I read a superb article by Tim Wilkins of Cross Ministry (published by Rick Warren's weekly newsletter-- I believe it was entitled "God's love for the homosexual") that called us to love the sinner- with action not mere words. Perhaps if we spent some time serving in love while we were reflecting and praying on our theology and doctrine we'd learn to live up to our lofty words.

The difficulty we have with confronting homosexual acts as sin is we have given up confronting so many other sinful acts. How can we decry the one sin when we wink at or condone so many others? To sound the clarion call against homosexual acts alone shows we do not abhor sin but rather abhor only that which offends us. This is especially easy when we are not tempted by that sin.

There is a huge discrepency in the title of the article and the content of the article itself! Are we talking about the issue of homosexuality? - not really! The answers had not been given, the question had not been studied! Are we talking about handling the issues per se? then there is not enough time in the article to actually develop the idea of Jesus way of loving people! I don't think U need to be "pastoral" to love people and not to jump on them for probing your opinion on it! But at the same time tolerance has a limit as well. Pls do coordinate the title and the content in the future!

Brian, I fear, is continuing to slide away from biblical Christianity into something I still