I haven't been personally confronted with this issue in a pastoral setting, but with recent publicity in the UK it has been on my mind. For me the moral issue is settled - I believe the homosexual act is a sin. That's my reading of the Bible. But I also believe that about divorce (and welcome divorcees in my church), fornication (and welcome less than chaste teenagers into my church) and a host of other behaviours and attitudes. My task is not to condemn but to pastor people to wholeness and purity in Christ. Why should my attitude be any different towards gays? Good article.

McLaren says not one word about God's Word, which is, thank God, clear, unequivocal, and precise on this subject. What a bunch of doublespeak.

That is a story we need to hear! I must admit at the beginning of the story I was thinking to myself, "Why doesn't he just answer the question?" I think we all need to balance our view of the truth with the compassion that Christ modeled. Thanks for the lesson.

I really appreciate Brian's pastoral wisdom and sensitivity here. There is usually a question behind a question, and Brian is right on to spot it.

I have to admit that I've been perplexed that Brian doesn't go further in tackling this question, because he is pretty good at wading into territory that looks dangerous to the rest of us. And he brings his wit and sensitivity into those dangerous areas, and usually causes us to think.

Is it possible to make some sort of pronouncement, as provisionally and graciously as possible, even in this sensitive area? Without it being the last word and the word after that? ;)

The sad thing is, even if Brian could give a clear statement on where his church stands on homosexuality, he can’t be sure that the congregation will emulate what he says when the time comes, because THEY are probably divided about it also. Unless the congregation has formed an agreed-upon position, that contains specifics of what will and will not be accepted, and that has been communicated to all members, then he must in all honesty say that his church has not agreed upon a specific stance on the subject.
Certainly it is a easy matter to acknowledge the Biblical position that homosexuality is sin, but then what? The way we relate to a homosexual who accepts the biblical teaching, and practices celibacy, should be different than toward a non-repentant homosexual who is searching for validation. In the case of visitors, as here, we should realize that unrepentant sinners of every type come to weddings as guests. If their particular sin is profanity, or boasting, or taking God’s name in vain, one just hopes that good taste will prevent them from indulging while physically on the premises. But there are no guarantees. In a case like that, we must be polite, tolerate it and perhaps use it as a teaching moment, as an example of what NOT to do.

VERY interesting discussion, especially in light of the brewing controversy over the new "End of the Spear" movie. I love (and try to live by) what a friend from Five Minute Records used to say. "Love God, Love Others, Take Time To Listen." Not bad advice, indeed...

I'm pretty confident that if this is the attitude, then in five years you won't have a position anyway. You're already practicing a moratorium. How about a moratoriaum on your lack of clarity? Sign me up for that one.

I think Brian handled the situation perfectly. I hope I have that kind of sensitivity when confronted with a similar situation. But to suggest that we need to discuss this for five years is to deny what the Christian Church has affirmed for 2000 years. 'Cowardly flip-flopper'? No, but still cowardly. You can't flip-flop on something you never make a decision on.

Pastor, thank you. Your wisdom is refreshing. Bless you for your patience in learning from Christ. Through you, He now has me rethinking my attitude towards homosexuality... as well may other sins I have, in the past, written people off because of. To be sure, I am no "cleaner" than the homosexual person and, in some respects, perhaps even less so. I'm sorry that anyone would be unable to see the wisdom in your words. My mind is opened anew. Again, thank you, from my heart. God bless you always.

While we must be "pastoral" in our approach to people, we must also be "Biblical." Jesus did not condone stoning the woman involved in sexual sin, but He did tell her to "go and sin no more." Jesus did not hesitate to lady her know that sin is sin and to please God one must stop sinning. There is no need for us to stay silent about the sin of homosexuality for five years or even 5 minutes. To think we can minister to someone better by not being honest with them and true the the Scriptures demonstrates a great error in understanding the whole character of God. It is our job to love the sinner while making sure they know that God hates the sin, no matter what the sin is--and homosexuality is specifically stated to be an abomination to Him. While this is not always easy to do, yet it is necessary if we are going to allow Jesus to be the Lord of our lives and Head of the Church.

I like what i am hearing...the call for more of us than just the pastors to be compassionate and understanding, and at the same time part of a dynamic life changing church. I wonder if the story of the "rich young ruler" would have read any different if he had been gay? Would the account have recorded him as the "much loved young ruler?" OR the "in a relationship young ruler?"

Would the challenge have been "go and break off your relationships and follow me?" Didnt he say to both the rich young ruler and the Samaritan woman at the well the same thing "Go and sin no more?" (In his own words of course...)

I think the key is that he authentically loved them. He knew all about them...every intimate detail. He came to restore them to his Father. The issue is not the sin, as much as the separation that the sin causes. The only way to get past the separation is Jesus. Lets just love people in such a way that they get to respond to who Jesus really is. If they accept that, or reject that, then we have loved them to death...the way we should.

Bravo Brian!
I think that it is such a pity that the question can't be framed in terms of the issues of fidelity vs. promiscuity rather than sexual orientation.

You can put off telling the truth for only so long. We represent God to people in word & action. We're afraid to be labelled w/the right or left. We want to meet people pastorally, so we ask questions. Would the couple's fathers be welcome? Yes. Might they be offended by a celebration of Christian marriage? Yes. Hopefully the relationship established in asking further questions can build a bridge strong enough to handle the truth. Sooner or later, you have to speak the truth.

Richard Dennis Miller wrote:
"McLaren says not one word about God's Word, which is, thank God, clear, unequivocal, and precise on this subject. What a bunch of doublespeak."

BTW Richard...either did you!
Remember the Samaritan Woman at the well? I am sure that Jesus did not tell her to straighten out her sexual lifestyle. I guess he just talked about something regarding never having to thirst again. Man he even spent a few days in that town! I wonder where he slept? This Jesus guy is just too improper and he wouldn’t fit into our definition of North American church. May be church is having to get cleaned up before being accepted into community! That’s safe…and we all like a GOD who is safe!

I may not have a problem with Brian except for this:

but because I am a pastor, and pastors have learned from Jesus that there is more to answering a question than being right or even honest:

I think Jesus's example was to be honest. I have been hurt by a Pastor not being honest.Clearly we need to understand the question and asking more questions is perfectly acceptable, but to allow pastors to be dishonest is wrong.

No where in Scripture do we have an example of denying anyone the message of Jesus Christ. We also have no instance of anyone being "excommunicated" for homosexuality; we have one instance of "incest" (maybe); It's time for the church to allow the Holy Spirit to take charge. We need not un-necessarily cause more division within the ranks.

I think Brian's position is:

It's not my job to have a position on your sins. It's my job to repent of mine, and to treat you with love, because no matter how sinful you are, it's nothing compared to what I have been forgiven of.

Many Christians are way too obsessed in protecting their intellectual positions and not nearly passionate enough about reaching out with a hand of love. When we act with this kind of judgment, we bring God's judgment on ourselves (see Romans 2, about as clear as you can get) and we fall out of relationship with God and our neighbors UNLESS our judgment is in the full knowledge of bringing a person to God's forgiveness.

My .02.

-C

I was very surprised by Brian's article. He shows such a great deal of wisdom in the first half of the article, and then an amazing lack of it in the latter half. In the end he comes across as quite confused, and that makes me wonder how he became as prominent as you say he is. We don't need a moratorium; the Word of God is quite clear and is not going to change! We simply need to submit to the authority of the scriptures as we speak the truth in love, with gentleness and respect.

I am looking forward to this discussion, but I think we all need to remember the "Blessing of Blogs" discussion from January 3.

No matter where our discussion takes us, let's be sure each post is a witness to the love of Jesus Christ and the unity appropriate to His Church.

As a Family Therapist and a Pastor, I agree there are questions behind questions, but the answer is still the same just as it always has been.

I think Brian's approach of looking for the real issue behind the question is right on! A little respect goes a long way and without it no one will come to Christ.

There are really two issues here. 1) What do we believe the BIBLE says regarding homosexuality and all other sin for that matter? and 2) How do we deal with people as they come to us with questions? I feel great about how Brian dealt with it. I feel awful to think we have to revisit biblical orthodoxy in this area. Grace and truth - we must have BOTH. Let's not let others' lack of grace in handling truth cause us to question the truth.

It is always intriguing to read McLaren's thoughts, wisdom, and controversial statements. It is refreshing to read the above statements (except one) that reflect an openness to those who don't yet have a relationship with Christ or those who have been less then obedient like we all have.

I expected more of the hard-line..."They're all going to hell!" type nonsense. I'm pleasantly surprised....so far....

Thank you so much for your sharing your wisdom. I have longed for someone to say what you have said. I am so tired of all the bashing and judgemental attitudes. We don't know everything there is to know about homosexuality and until we do I agree - let's just shut up!

I can appreciate all of the comments, and certainly I too have an opinion on the matter but surely God's not silent on the matter is He? Are we to belive that because we live in a society and an emerging culture of acceptance and liberalism that we are to "not offend" with truth that transforms? People need to know that God loves the sinner and at the same time hates sin. Have we become so preoccupied with inclusion and tolerance that we have become a compromised generation. Look at what has happened in some of the major denominations because of those who openly embrace a homosexual lifestyle. Homosexuals have not only infiltrated the church, and but have also ascended the heights of leadership and once in place have setout to lead others away from what "The WORD" has to say about their sinful ways. While it is true God loves everyone, and it is His desire and will that all be saved, let's never forget the fact that it is also His will that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. Jesus died; shed His precious blood in order for us to be delivered from sin, and not to continue in sin. Like all other sinners that need to saved, homosexuals are to repent,and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation and deliverance.

Way too often we have rushed to judgement on this issue. I am so grateful for Brian's article, and appreciate his sensitivity. May we all know the depth and width and height of the love of God.

I am a manager of a retail store and had the opportunity to witness to one of my mid-managers. I knew he was gay because he was open about his sexuality. I asked him a question, if he ever attended church. He responded why should I go, all they do is send me to hell. My heart was broken. I said to him, that it is not God's desire to send any one to hell but to have a life. I did tell him that God is seeking a relationship with him but his life style has to change and God will give him the strength to change. All I did was show him Gods love and what it meant to me to live a holy life. And yes he came to listen to me preach the word of God. I know that I planted a seed in his life and God Will do the rest.

To me this article made me think in a couple of different ways. First, the wisdom of answering a question with a question like Jesus frequently did in His day is definitely something to be kept at the forefront of our minds. I admire the person with the patience (or humility) and discernment to pray before they speak.

Secondly, like Brent stated in his comment, I am disturbed that so many pastors, as indicated by Brian in his article, are so confused as to what scripture says about homosexuality that they might need 5 years to ponder the idea. The black and white is that homosexuality is as sin. To me, established students of God's Word shouldn't need 5 years to figure that out. People are people and should still be loved and cared for, however, sin is still sin and should be called as such.

This is a thought provoking post and I agree that there is wisdom in not continuing to make it No 1 issue or THE sin on which the church wars. I was particularly struck by the sensitive reply to the couple enquiring about the church and can see that a sensitivity is required so that individuals are not alienated. However, I am very unhappy that the article is supported with the commentary that begins:

"Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about homosexuality. We've heard all sides but no position has yet won our confidence so that we can say "it seems good to the Holy Spirit and us."

To me this phrase indicates not a sensitivity to the issue but perhaps a lack of courage in making a clear biblical statement about homosexuality. Pastoral skill combines confrontation with care.

Beautifully expressed! In this age of instant gratification and macho posturing, how refreshing to be lovingly invited to take time -- whatever time is needed -- to just listen... listen to others, and listen to the Holy Spirit. Yes, we're more comfortable when we think we have everything nailed down. But is this life really about our comfort? More than a few atrocities have been committed or condoned by "good Christians" through the ages who were so sure they knew the mind of God. And speaking from experience, it is amazing how quickly we can be humbled, turned upside down and brought to our knees when seeking God's truth is more important to us than "being right." Thank you Brian, for your wise counsel.

This is an example of the church/pastor settling down and accepting the culture around them to not cause any issues, or waves, or upset people. Homosexuality is different than divorce or other sins. It strikes at the root of the entire family structure and gender identity. God called it an abomination. No other single sin was called that,nor was any other city singled out in OT times like Sodom was. Marriage is the reflective of God's relationship to His people. To corrupt this basic tenent is not like any other sin.
So to be willing to accept homosexual partners in Christian ceremony that is designed to be typical of God's relationship to the church, is to invite Tobias to live in the Temple.
I pray those who desire to marry would be instructed what marriage means in the Christian context.

Bill

Brian is right in that we must be pastoral in our approach, however, we must never shy away from sharing God's truth.

Its astonishing that Brian thinks we need a council to determine if homosexuality is a sin. The Bible is very clear that it is a sin--as is all sex outside of marriage.

That doesn't mean we should make anti-homosexuality our main platform. We are hear to share the Word of God. But this Word does include the truth about sin.

Brian has to realize that we'll not be loved by everyone in the world. Jesus himself said, "They will hate you, because they hated me."

I think he also mischaracterizes the Christian conservatives who are concerned about this issue. They are good, honest, believers who feel that they should make their voice heard in society.

We should speak the truth in love--but we can't abandon the truth and only have love.

McLaren's position is not surprising given his basic disregard for the role of Scripture. Typical to much of his writing, he sets up a false "straw man" -- in this case attributing the view of homosexuality as being wrong to a political agenda rather than admitting that those who faithfully seek to follow God's Word see the Bible clearly setting forth homosexuality as a sin. Too, he posits the view that you either accept the homosexual viewpoint as valid or else you are a homophobic hateful person -- another false premise.
McLaren's assumptions and positions tend to be manipulative and disingenuous -- and, thus, dangerous. You can be loving, pastoral, and redemptive and still follow biblical mandates of truth. But then, I forget that McLaren tends to ask the Pilate question,"What is truth?" Jesus answered that once for Thomas. Perhaps one day, Brian will discover that same answer for himself.

In my congregation I see a multitude of sins represented. Adultery, Fornication, Lust, Child Abuse, Theft, Gossip, Slander, Favoritism, Drunkeness, Pride, even Homosexuality. They are not sins in abstract. They are present in real flesh and blood that sits before me and with me every Sunday morning. I can see the whites of their eyes, I know when I'm hitting someone in the heart.

It requires a sensitive spirit every week to bring both conviction and comforted as needed.
Two people might struggle with the same sin. One needs to recognize their action is sinful while the other still needs reminded their sin is forgiveable.

Homosexuality is no different then so many other sins. Those practicing homosexuality need the same grace Newton acknowledged when he wrote
"Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear, and Grace my fears relieved."

What those engaging in homosexual behavior need is what all of us with sinful behavior need: Grace and Truth.

If we deny the sinfulness of the behavior then we withhold the grace that can bring transformation. A surgeon's scapel both wounds and heals. The same is true of the two-edged sword we are called to wield. Our "emerging" leaders may not want to drop them just yet, they may still find them helpful.

Don't ever stop talking about homosexuality. It is SIN! No one will ever change that fact nor explain it away. God is the final authority and he has called it sin so don't back up, let up or shut up! God bless you for the courage to call sin what it is.

Right on, Brian! God's grace is not always black and white. It is just that, grace. I prefer to err on the side of grace rather than law. What is clearly b/w to one, may not be to another. that is why this discussion continues (endlessly.) I appreciate those who are open minded enough to say, "I believe it (whatever the "sin" is) is wrong. But I could be wrong." A moratorium is a time for discernment, not indecision. And discernment happens on God's time, not ours.

What Brain and many more pastors are doing and have done is become soft on sin. The message to any sinner is faith and repentance. Churches cannot and should not accept homosexuals practicing or still living the lifestyle nor should they accept a similar lifestyle of the hetrosexual. There is no doctrine in the Bible that condones sin, not one example. Brain is confused: Do not be decieved: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. (Gal 6:7-8 NIV)

"because I am a pastor, and pastors have learned from Jesus that there is more to answering a question than being right or even honest: we must also be ... pastoral. That means understanding the question beneath the question, the need or fear or hope or assumption that motivates the question. We pastors want to frame our answer around that need; we want to fit in with the Holy Spirit's work in that person's life at that particular moment. To put it biblically, we want to be sure our answers are "seasoned with salt" and appropriate to "the need of the moment" (Col. 4; Eph. 4)."

Absolutely!

"Even if we are convinced that all homosexual behavior is always sinful, we still want to treat gay and lesbian people with more dignity, gentleness, and respect than our colleagues do."

Yes!

"If we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for some homosexual relationships, we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex. We aren't sure if or where lines are to be drawn, nor do we know how to enforce with fairness whatever lines are drawn."

Not! The Bible and Church teaching are clear on this; we know where the lines are drawn, and we must have the courage to draw them -- without negating the first two points above.

"Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making pronouncements."

Jesus didn't make pronouncements ... but he did tell the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. He proclaimed forgiveness but did not grant license. We should do the same

"In the meantime, we'll practice prayerful Christian dialogue, listening respectfully, disagreeing agreeably. When decisions need to be made, they'll be admittedly provisional. We'll keep our ears attuned to scholars in biblical studies, theology, ethics, psychology, genetics, sociology, and related fields. Then in five years, if we have clarity, we'll speak; if not, we'll set another five years for ongoing reflection. After all, many important issues in church history took centuries to figure out. Maybe this moratorium would help us resist the "winds of doctrine" blowing furiously from the left and right, so we can patiently wait for the wind of the Spirit to set our course.

Not necessary. This has been clear since the time of Paul (New Testament) and Moses (Old Testament). It is settled; there is no "evolution" in doctrine because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever -- end of issue. See points 1-2 and 4.

"Being "right" isn't enough. We also need to be wise. And loving. And patient."

True ... but we must start by being right.

Brian is to be commended for wanting to avoid legalism and harshness and for wanting to see the church not offend unnecessarily. However, most all the evangelicals I know strive for the same clarity (on the Biblical issues) and compassion (for the people involved) that he seems to assume only he and a few others wish to see in the church. As the pastor of a church where many homosexuals came to Christ over the years, I find his analysis unnecesarily confusing ("we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex") and his appeal for a moratorium unwise. He does not speak for them or me in saying, "Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about homosexuality. We've heard all sides but no position has yet won our confidence . . ." The Biblical issues are clear; the application requires grace and wisdom. A moratorium would only confuse the faithul, disappoint the afflicted, and confuse those listening in much the same way as would a moratorium on adultery, wife abuse, alcoholism or any other sin. Let any moratorium be on our knees in prayer for the Lord's wisdom in graciously sharing the truth and setting captives free --- including ourselves from our own sins.

There always is a question in a question. The Pastor (Shepherd) leads the flock, protects the flock, feeds the flock. This was the perfect opportunity. Sheep mill only when there is no direction. No answer, no direction. By the way what's up with "emerging leaders." Sounds like a pride thing. I thought we were just called by God (Eph. 4:11)

I wonder how many of us have preached a good sermon on the "evils of capitalism" lately and how it feeds our christian soul with lust for wealth and greed. Or, how about "Democracy: Not a Biblical Concept".
The fact is, we have all kinds of Christians in our church who are sinning in all kinds of ways and all kinds of pastors choosing for one reason or another to ignore the sin.
I say let the gays in, live a Kingdom model before them and all the other sinners and let God do His transforming work.

I think we have a bad habit of selecting the sins we don't struggle with as our focus and we fall into the bad habit of classifying or caregorizing sin and sinners as being better or worse. The Bible doesn't recognize degrees of sin, as long as you aren't blaspheming the Holy Spirit. How many people would be at that wedding if we eliminated the cheaters, the liars, the gossips, The sinners? All sin is abhorent to God. He wants sinners to come to Him and be healed not turned away by our harsh words and unloving attitudes.

My denomination is being blown apart by this issue, and everytime I hear/read the words 'dialogue' or 'discussion', I cringe, because it's been used as a stalling tactic while more and more nonsense goes on. But I loved that Brian called for a halt to 'pronouncements', because it damages the church whenever someone jumps up and blasts homosexuals (or any other 'group'), without giving context to their message, or listening to the context of others. I'm pretty clear about what the Bible says, but I'm not so sure that we actually hear each other when we talk about it. I went to seminary in Berkeley, CA, and it doesn't get more liberal than that. I'm more conservative, but wanted to be open minded, so I tried to engage in dialogue. What I got was screaming, shrill diatribes that pigeon-holed my perspective just because I was a straight, white male. I wanted to learn, but I was told that I'd never change, so I wasn't worth talking to.

I guess I'd love to hear a little less from either side of the issue for five years to give the Holy Spirit room to speak. Still, small voices are hard to hear in a shouting match. And since we don't hear how the conversation ends between Brian and the couple, maybe lay off the guy. He asked the right question to start the relationship, which is the place to start. Nice article.

No matter what is politically correct or socially acceptable in 2006, God's Word is crystal clear - sin is sin and the wages of sin is death. Read Romans chapter 1 for a clear explanation of this issue. Homosexuality is an abomination - that's all there is to it.

But this does not mean that as Christians we have the right to pass judgment on people. We still need to hate the sin but love the sinner. We need to share the Gospel in its unadulterated form - to homosexuals and straight people alike. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We cannot condone homosexuality - but we still need to show them that Jesus Christ is willing to forgive them and set them free of their lifestyle. Hopefully they will repent and turn to serving Christ with body, soul and spirit. Thank God for His infinite mercy, love and grace.

Maybe it will take a homosexual couple asking Brian to marry them to finally know where he stands on the issue. Maybe he will have to tell them to wait five years until he is sure what the answer is.

Two thousand years of Christianity seems to be fairly clear on homosexuality, including other sexual sins. The idea that we need a time out is foolishness indeed. Not wanting to take things out of perspective, but doesn't this position seem to be the church of Laodicea.

Why is it so hard for some Christians to state that active, practicing homosexuality is wrong but the person needs to be loved towards the Lord? Yet they see no problem calling out divorce and adultery as being what they are, sin.

PuritanD

Your sensitivity, insight and love is evident in your article. To be pastoral is to be like Jesus who lays down his life for his sheep. And yes, we are all the sheep of God's pasture, the flock God guides whether that be hetero or homosexual individuals.
Grace to you as you continue to be a much needed
compassionate and thoughtful voice.

Brian suggested a "five-year moratorium on making pronouncements." I'm afraid that in five years the battle for our society (and many of our churches) will be lost. The war has been raging in my denomination for 35 years and we are just now beginning to see the light. And it has come about through the rejection of Christian dialogue with those who "don't know what we should think about homosexuality." What I think about it is irrelevant. It is what God has said that counts. The line of thinking in this commentary has been heard for many years in the United Methodist Church. And it has led to the near destruction of the denomination.

I am saddened that this point of view has been expressed by Leadership and CTI.

I belive that this is a delicate subject in that you shouldn't answer a question like this in the main aisle of your church with a newcomer but one that you should sit down and openly share not OUR own opion or ideas but what the word of God says. It is an abomination and as such should not be tolerated or ignored. If we want God to return to America we must return back to God and it is in these types of bullet dodging games that the church loses it's authority. We should not cower under any circumstance becasue we have the ultiamate authority and back-up on our side. The Word of Almighty Holy God.

Sure the Bible is clear, but the Bible is clear on many issues. The problem is that we are dealing with people, not issues. The couple's question was not about homosexuality, it was about their fathers. "Issues" are easy, But we are not to deal with issues. Let the politicians deal with issues. We are to deal with people. The lack of clarity comes in how that issue affects people. What do we do with it? We know what the truth is. The question isn't "what is the truth?" The question is "what do we do with the truth?" That is a far tougher and more slippery question, that indeed does need to be handled delicately, humbly, honstly, compassionately and, yes, patiently.

I don't think there's "a snowball's chance..." as they say, of getting a moratorium on this "discussion."
However, I strongly identify with Brian's feelings. Sometimes the clamor around us makes it very hard to hear the "still small voice." And sometimes the winds of opinion around us make it very difficult to sense the frequently gentler "wind of the Spirit."
Anytime you step into a polarized environment, the danger to your welfare increases with every second you fail to choose a side, but a spontaneous choice can be just as dangerous to your integrity!
I don't have a solution either, but it makes me feel better knowing I am not alone.

there are so many threads to this issue, some of which we have not even begun to breach such as what is judgment? etc. and I won't try to create out of thin air something that hasn't already been said, but just a comment on something that I've been doing that is more like confession:

I'm like most people and have considered this issue like "any other sin" and read it as such, but in reality that isn't true. Jesus died once, not in many varieties for increasingly nasty levels of sin. The reality is that this issue is only like any other sin until we are contextually involved in it, which in some ways makes it like "any other sin." I oppose abortion but if my daughter's life is at stake because of her baby...what is the 'absolute' for that?Brian's somewhat "confused" approach is really refreshing, considering the tendency of any recognized speaker to attempt to speak in absolute terms intended to be universally true for even the most situational idea.

Let's be honest: it's easier to critique Brian than to write the article ourselves from our perspective and read it to someone of a homosexual persuasion--would they long to know God by virtue of what we present to them? Is our role anything more than that?

I confess I don't know if my article would be helpful in that person's life, and I like Brian hesitate to write it. Maybe I'm a backwards flip-flopper but in all honesty are we really ready to speak in absolute terms in ALL situations?

peace-
c.k.

While I agree that pastoral sensitivity is a valuable thing and needs to be excercised towards homosexuals this does not preclude us from speaking out on the issue. I am not sure who exactly Mclaren is speaking for, but the Roman Church, for example has tolerated gay men in ministry, read, studied, and written on the subject for years. The conclusion: It is disorder. The Episcopal Church USA has done the same thing: the result is a fracture of the communion because of the relativising of scripture that must take place to give homosexual behaivour legitimacy.

I repect Mr. McLaren's opinion on homosexuality. However, one's opinion must not be an alternative to God's Word. The Church's stand on homosexuality is that it is a sin, period. Just as lying, cheating, stealing, and other sexual immoralities are sins. As a society, we tend to look at some sins as worse than others. However, the truth of the matter is, the wage of sin is death. We are falling into the trap of tolerance. Remember the Samaritan on the well. Jesus was clear when He brought her sin into light. He did not condemn her, He simply said, "go and sin no more. We are to be accepting of the sinner, not the sin. If we need five years to figure out how we feel on this matter, then, we are either not reading scripture and/or not praying as we should. Remember our focus is to win souls for Christ with a clear band concise message. It is,then, the job of the Holy Spirit to change those lives once they have accepted Him. In the meantime, let us pray for God's wisdom and for mercy and forgiveness for all those who fall short of the Glory of God of which, I am the first.

Brian's call for a moratorium IS courageous. The easy thing to do in the christian community today is to jump on the war wagon and pretend that this sin is somehow greater than all or many others. The church does need to make a clear stand on issues of morality, but that has not usually been effective when done with judgemental pronouncements and intolerant/impersonal rants. Christ dealt with the individual, as should we. Christ dealt with sin, as should we. Christ listened, cared, and offered hope, as should we.

Clarence stated, "Homosexuals have not only infiltrated the church, and but have also ascended the heights of leadership and once in place have setout to lead others away from what 'The WORD' has to say about their sinful ways." Let's get real! Sinners have infiltrated the church at every level, and this is done in full view and design of God. He didn't send His son to die and reach a bunch of holy-rollers who never sinned anyway. Sin infiltrates our lives, and we need to deal with it, in honest, and personal ways. How does homosexuality become a more significant corruption of a 'basic tenet' of God's design in marriage more than any other of the 10 commandments or other warnings of sin in scripture? It is a sin, and should be honestly dealt with as such, but is not a greater threat than many other sins that run rampant within our church walls and homes already. I don't hear Brian saying to stop talking about it to anyone, anywhere, just to stop making it such a forefront issue as the lost come looking at what Christianity is all about.

Thanks Brian.

As I read Brian's article, I found myself nodding a lot. I agree that this issue is too politicized. Conservative Christians are in danger of winning the political war while losing a multitude of would-be Christians who are turned off by what they see as hatred and prejudice. I love the way he handled the "gay" question by digging deeper. But my nodding stopped about halfway through.

I am very unsettled by his call for a five year moratorium. The world is opening up more and more to homosexuality and the forces behind this are affecting the church, too. We are on a slippery slope. Christian leaders need to be a voice for righteousness and truth (Jesus was able to do this lovingly and pastorally without offending people). Is Brian really asking us to be silent as our flocks and communities look to us for direction and understanding and as secular voices get louder and louder? We may be silent, but the push toward acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle in our world and churches won't rest. The idea to lay back and do nothing while such a spiritual battle wages is at best absurd and at worst a complete shirking of God-given responsibility.

Brian, make up your mind. This is an issue that has been raging for years. If you're waiting for some new revelation from a Bible scholar, psychologist, or ethicist, forget it. We have more than enough information. If you haven't made up your mind about God's view on homosexuality, how we can best articulate it, and how we can faithfully minister to those struggling with it, then by all means follow your own advice and don't speak about it.

I appreciate McLaren's ability to step back and take a moment to consider the question before answering. We as Pastors sometimes forget that we are called by God to help others understand what being a Christian is. I have no problem in speaking frankly and answering this or any other question posed by people but I like to remember how the Pharisees tried to catch Jesus up in some legalistic snares and He , as our example, deflected the issues back to those who are trying to set Him up. I like to understand why the question is asked,too. If we follow the Lord's example we will not go wrong.

Brian, there's a place for you: it's called the PCUSA and supposedly we're doing exactly what you suggest... a 5-year moratorium while we study, pray, and practice sensitivity. You may want to see how it turns out before following, though...

Yes, let us ignore the problem and maybe it will go away. Evangelical Christians did not start this "war of words" but now that it has come into the open we must take a stand. Yes, homosexuals are people and God loves all people but I do not think that homosexuality and Christianity are compatible words if the homosexual offender sees no wrong in their actions. God gives repentance to repentant sinners. No repenting, no repentance. Period.

Understanding the "reason" and "importance" of the question? Sure.

Responding in a way that is both gentle and shows respect? Absolutely.

Pretending that God has not made His will known on this subject? UNTHINKABLE.

Yes, yes, yes!! I agree wholeheartedly! Those who think they heard Brian saying that either one accepts homosexuals or one is a hateful homophobe missed it: he wasn't saying that - he's saying that the world thinks that. And therefore, once they get a whiff of a negative viewpoint towards homosexuality, they think they know all of our positions on everything (AND that we are militant about all of them). Whose fault is that? Well, maybe it's a media problem, or a political problem, or maybe Christians have brought it on themselves, but what Brian is saying is, "that's the way it is." And since it IS that way, we would do well not to lead with our chins. Let people get to know us before we tell them the hard truth; get to know THEM before we start blessing them with our doctrine -- let them get to know JESUS first. Anyone who just has to tell someone that homosexuality is wrong in their first conversation with them is missing the point.

I have read Brian's comment. I sincerely believe that since the Bible lables homosexuality as an abomination, we should be firm. To play with this situation is to fall into the trap of the enemy of our souls. He through the playing on words and phrases tries to twist the scriptures so that they will not seem clear but alway leaving room for debate. It reminds me of how the devil tried to twist the scriptures when dealing with Jesus in the widerness during his fasting time trying to catch him at his weakest moment. The Bible emphatically states that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever. What he stated in his word, is what he means. We cannot allegorize the Scriptures. We must take them literally. As it was in Sodom and Gomorrah and throughout time, the act of homosexuality and lesbianism is wrong and will remain wrong. And we cannot justify it in no way. God's word is founded upon truth. This is the enemy's way: to keep us constantly debating over a subject that God has already given the answer. And the reason we keep debating it is because we who call ourselves Christian are not really sound in what we believe ourselves. We cannot play with Satan. His power was broken at Calvary. Therefore he has no power. But he can only suggest and seduce. We must come to the conclusion that sin is sin and must be dealt with according to God's standards. Yes, we love the sinner but we must hate his ways and show him that it is only through the Gospel of Jesus Christ that a man can be saved.

It's very clear to me that the Bible is very clear on a whole host of sins, including sexual ones. Furthermore, I see that the Bible clearly treats sexual sin very seriously. They include sodomy, fornication, adultery, abortion and divorce. Whilst the reasons for the gravity of sexual sin are something I don't fully understand, the Bible explicitly states and clearly portrays the seriousness. So, the question for me is not whether these things are sin. The question for me is how do I respond to a surrounding relativistic culture and people from that culture that are openly contentious with the Bible's statements and the church's historical stance on sexual sin. In John's gospel, there are two clear interactions Jesus has with people actively practicing sexual sin. The first is the Samaritan woman (the woman at the well) in John 4 and and the second is the adultress in John 8. In John 4, Jesus makes it very plain that he knows all about the Samaritan woman's sinful sexual behavior. Nevertheless, Jesus never condemns the Samaritan woman, quotes the law or calls for her stoning. Instead, Jesus begins a relationship building dialog with her about spiritual things, subsequently stays in her town for two days and many from her town come to believe in him as the Christ. In John 8, Jesus refuses to get embroiled in an argument with the scribes and the Pharisees about whether to stone a woman caught in adultery. Mosaic law prescribed it, but Roman law forbade it since it reserved punishment of death to the Roman government. This is only one of several clashes between religon and culture into which Jesus refused to get drawn. There is something other than sexual sin, however, that Jesus consistently directly confronts and condemns. That something is self-righteous, self-justifying, arrogant and judgemental behavior, particularly by the Jewish political and religious leaders of his day. And, lest we think this is just for the leaders, Jesus thought poorly of the prodigal son's older brother's behavior too. So, the question still remains. Should I model my behavior after Jesus' behavior or after members of Westboro Baptist in Topeka KA?

I think that Pastor Brian needs to hang up his pastoral position if " he isn't clear" on this subject. The Bible is more than clear that homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord and also the Bible talks about the person that is double-minded. He evidently is more concerned with being politically correct than Biblically correct. This isn't saying we have to be cruel or avoid these people. It is saying we have to love them just like Jesus would do. Love the person, hate the sin. Homosexuality is a sin any way you look at it! We need to be more concerned with the way we deal with this issue and make sure that Jesus can be seen in our actions and not beat around the bush when asked about it. If the Bible says it is wrong then there are no two ways about it. It is wrong. Makes me wonder what else he isn't SURE of. We have to stand firm in these last days. Either your with Christ or your against him. Make up your mind and stand up for it or you'll fall for anything.

Should we respond with God's word (the Bible), or should we respond with the "Word" (Jesus)? (I guess it depends upon which one you worship...word or Word). Far as I can tell, Jesus called sin what it was, but he never condemned the sinner. Really, the only condemnation that he had was for the religious folks who made it so very difficult for the normal person to stand before God. A lesson for the righteous?

The world would be better served by Christians that took the time to understand, not an issue, but a person's heart before making pronouncements. I'm a pastor, and I can't tell you how many times I might have misrepresented Jesus by my judgmentalism and lack of empathy. As far as I can tell, Jesus said to 'judge not lest you be judged'. I don't wish to be judged for my sins (they are many and diverse).

If my job as pastor is to call out sins and hold the sinner accountable...shouldn't I be going after the greedy first? How about that guy that just drove up to Sunday worship in his $50,000 SUV that I know for a fact doesn't tithe. I think I might just do like Jesus and go after the self-righteous with a vengence. Or maybe I'll just do a lot less talking, a lot more understanding, and a lot more of pointing people to the Word.

"If we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for some homosexual relationships, . . ."? What could that possibly be?

What a refreshing article! I am as pleased that he has not been burned at the stake in the preceding blogs.
I particularily liked the statement "Even if we are convinced that all homosexual behavior is always sinful, we still want to treat gay and lesbian people with more dignity, gentleness, and respect than our colleagues do." What a radical thought - we could be more loving that those who are not followers of Jesus!
Tozer talked about the need for a baptism of clear thinking. Bring it on!

I appreciated the emphasis on listening and finding out the basis for the question. One sentence really bothered me though. When the author wrote "if we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for homosexual relationships..." I bristled. I believe the church can be gentle and sensitive and work with people where they are at. I think we have failed at learning to do that while presenting truth. Our culture continues to roll out a dangerous lie, that homosexuality is something you are born with...it is determined at birth and just embrace it. In our highly sexualized society young people are being sucked into this lie and they are not hearing that it is not true and that others with such feelings have found their way out. Thanks for letting me blow off steam.

Interesting discussion. As a pastor for the past 22 years, I have had hours and hours of heart to heart talks with gays in different occasions. I have come to love them as friends and have sought God's guidance in teaching them God message of grace.

One thing I learned in all those counseling. There were gays who decided to repent of their homosexual sexual acts and there were those who totally disagreed with me. I have learned that in most cases, they want the church to declare that homosexual acts are not sin as long as they are done within a homosexual marriage. They will agree that it becomes sin if they become unfaithful to their gay partner.

What I have learned is this: the gay movement wants nothing less than total acceptance of their lifestyle.

Question is: Is homosexual behavior biblical or not? If scripture is our basis, then the answer is clear... homosexual behavior is condemned by the scriptures. If we go out of the scriptures, as many liberal Christian theologians do, then you do need a five year moratorium... and end up unbiblical.

Seems to me that there are a fair number of confused pastors out there, a little scary really. Let me cut to the chase with two points. Mclaren's comment "Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about homosexuality" is sad, as the Bible is explicitly clear in numerous passages and the reasons for this prohibition are also clear to those who think with a biblical worldview. Read your Bible Mclaren.

The second point is more interesting. What do I do when people ask me of our view on homosexuality, as many do? I think Mclaren is to be commended by asking questions in response to questions and finding out where the questioner is coming from first, it's what I do. Then, if the person is homosexual, I tell them that they will be loved and accepted in our church, which is true. Our church is full of unchurched, lost people on a journey to find God. I believe that when a practicing homosexual draws near to God, the Holy Spirit will convict them of their sin and they will repent and be saved. We draw the line at church membership. You cannot become a church member and practice a sinful lifestyle. In our new members class, we teach on 1 Cor. 6:9-11 which has a lot of lifestyles, including homosexuality, that exclude you from the kingdom of God. However, the good news in verse 11 is that God can set people free from their bondage to sin. Love the sinner, let God work in their life and hate the sin which destroys and separates them from God.

I am a pastor in Ontario Canada and have the legal option of conducting or not conducting the marriage of two gay/lesbian persons. I would be interested to know if Brian, if asked, would conduct the marriage of two same sex persons. I don't think they would wait five years for an answer.

Thank you for this example of a wise and deeply compassionate approach to a divisive issue. I know the Old Testament is crystal clear on adultery. But Jesus did not quote scripture to the woman taken in adultery or the woman at the well. He did not quote scripture to Zacchaeus or Levi. He embodied scripture - lived it before them. God help us to do the same.
My daughter told us three years ago that she is lesbian. This was two months after I began my first pastorate. I immediately told the elders and we have journeyed and prayed together since. It has helped us all to see that this is not merely a theological issue - one where people take sides and shout opponents down. We are not dealing only with issues. We are seeking to love people. We need to seek beyond the proof texts and find the heart of God. I sincerely want my life to inform my theology and not dictate it. I am still in agony over how to help my daughter open more to God. My agony has brought me to my knees - at least it is doing a work of transformation in me. I love my daughter and I love my church and I seek to walk with them in compassion and understanding. God help me.

I agree that Jesus gave the best pastoral and prophetic example of all for us to emulate. As our Perfect Example, Jesus said two things which I think yield the clarity Brian et al seek.

First, Matthew 5:17 (KJV), "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." The Law is very clear that homosexuality is not only a sin, but an abomination (a word Webster defines as "extreme disgust and hatred: loathing"). I believe Jesus meant that the demands of the Law remain unchanged, but He has met the Law's demands with His substitutionary sinlessness, which God the Father, by His grace, has interposed between us and the Law to save us from the requisite retribution of the Law. This may be partly why Jesus did not personally address the issue of homosexuality in the Gospel accounts. The issue simply did not present itself, and there was no need to bring it up either, because in everyone's mind it was, to coin a phrase, "settled Law".

Second, John 8:11 (KJV), "And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." Here, a woman caught in the very act of adultery -- also a sin -- is dragged into the holy Temple where Jesus not only forgives and releases her, though Jesus was the only One present qualified by His sinlessness to condemn her, but He also challenged her to repent, meaning, I believe, that she was to eschew not only adultery, but ALL sin foreverafter. I believe this same standard of grace encompassing our confession of and repentance from sin may be applied across the board to ALL human sin, whether adultery, or fornication, or thievery, or, yes, even homosexuality.

I will welcome anyone into Christian fellowship who wishes to confess and repent of ALL sins, but I will not give tacit approval to ANY sin by remaining silent about it in order to "be more pastoral" or to avoid hurting someone's feelings. What kind of caring and compassionate pastor would I be if I let one of my flock wander down "the broad way that leads to destruction" (Matthew 7:13-14) without at least attempting to rescue him/her? Like the father who spares the rod of correction (Proverbs 13:24), I would be demonstrating hate rather than care and compassion.

Homosexuality, or sin in general, is not an area in need of "a moratorium on making pronouncements", or even in need of clarity, insofar as the Word of God is concerned, but rather, it needs MORE emphasis in a time when even so-called Christian leaders "call evil good, and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20), whether out of a misguided sense of tolerance or political correctness or just plain ignorance or misinterpretation of the Word of God. If anything, Brian has spotlighted the need for MORE public pronouncements by pastors and prophets alike that the TRUE Christian Church stands for obedience and faithfulness to the inspired, written Word of God and the pure example of Jesus the Christ. As a caring and compassionate pastor, that is exactly what I intend to do.

It seems that all sides of the issue have been "blogged". I only have one comment. I think that the Holy Spirit is very clear on the issue. Brian "kinda" elevated his status a little high when he made the decision he would make depend on where it was "good to us and the Holy Spirit." His approach to look for the question behind the question is correct. And you do not have to give your complete doctrinal statement before you find out what the real issues are behind the question. And you must always be pastoral but never condone sin in the process. It's not easy folks. I deal with this issue a lot as a prison chaplain.

Brian and others in the postmodern church movement accuse baby boomers of "getting into bed" with modernism, while Brian's article in Leadership is clearly the postmodern church doing the same, just with a different cultural philosophy. Brian's call for a moratorium on pronouncing homosexual behavior a sin is clearly influenced more by a postmodern view of homosexuality than by a scriptural one. What's next on the moratorium list, any consentual sex outside marraige, abortion, anything that postmoderns can't come to a concensus about?

Thank you Brian.

It is a wise person who deliberates before speaking, and in the absense of thinking does not speak. The scholars who thought deeply before writing are those whom we rely upon most for guidance and clarification of the Word. I suggest we do the same.

Unfortunately, it is those in the christian church who are highly polarized, without cause, who receive most of the air time.

Most ethical issues should be examined with a heart of compassion and hope before any other filters are applied.

Brian has done these things.

Many who have written here claim that the bible says that homosexuality is sin. But notice what they can't claim. They can't claim that the Bible tells us explicitely what to do about it in our communities. They can't claim that we should respond in a particular way if a homosexual couple desires us to marry them. The Bible is authoritative, but not the people who wrote it, many of whom struggled with their own particular biases. People must deal with homosexuals in our culture, not books. I like the wisdom of one comment which said we should take the five years to stop the rhetoric and be quiet for awhile so we can all corporately listen to what the Spirit is saying NOW to the churches. We get too hung up as Evangelicals on what He was saying 2000 years ago to a culture that had a higher rate of homosexuality (Rome) than our present culture has. What, for instance, does the Bible explicitely tell us to do when voting for candidates, one of whom is loving and honest and homosexual, and the other is a womanizer, a charlatan and accepts bribes? The question of whether or not homosexuality is wrong is one of many, many, many questions about homosexuality, very few of which are answered by the Bible, even in general form. This is what Brian is confused by I believe.

I'm curious if we are listening to how we phrase our responses. We seem to be for or against Brian's approach. Isn't that part of the problem. We are setting ourselves up "for" or "against" and missing the person in front of us?

I appreciate Brian's perspective. I can think of many pastoral care issues AWAY from homosexuality I could use this advice for. I believe the Bible is clear on homosexuality. Sometimes that clarity clouds our compassion.

I see that someone has responded that "scripture is clear" on this. I don't think it is. And I have spent close to 25 years reflecting in the biblical tradition, in conversation with a host of folks, and prayer & discernment. I appreciate Brian's caution. But I think the culture around us may be closer to the mark of God's intention and the scriptural message than that. Let me be clear about myself, over the past 15 years I have celebrate in worship three union ceremonies for gay and lesbian couples. At a time in my life when my wife left me and not many folks were responding in care for my pain, a minister who had just come out of the closet offered me the deepest pastoral care. I would agree, let's let go of the pronouncements. Let's engage in conversation. And I am part of that conversation as an ordained minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for 31 years. My life was born anew or "from above" 15 years ago as I begin to meet Jesus again for the first time, as Phil Yancey puts it. My experience with gay and lesbian people has often brought a deep spiritual presence of the reality of God in the face of some other kinds of Christians who are focused on morality but have not a clue about the gift of the spirit.

I believe it is prececisely a pastor's role to clarify where scripture (and hopefully the congregation) stands on the issue of sin. To apologize for or minimize the biblical view of any sin makes one a party to the sinner's transgression.

I am concerned however, when church leaders focus in on one particular sin because it is deemed "safe." What I mean is that it's OK to pick on a certain group of sinners because it's popular or you know you won't offend anyone in your congregation anyway. In short this is pastoral cowardice and not in keeping with the teachings of Christ.

Show me a Pastor who is equally passionate about the sin of homosexuality as the sins of gluttony or greed. Show me a Pastor who opposes gossip with the same passion that he opposes drunkeness or sexual immorality.

Cherry-picking safe stances against sins nobody will hold you accountable for is not biblical and heaven help me or any other pastor who engages in this practice.

An excellent article giving us some guidelines and insights in dealing with this issue- even though I don't necessarily agree with him on the 5 year moratorium. There are some guidelines in scripture that we don't need to wait 5 years to understand and articulate.

Let me identify myself at least this much. I am consevative theologically and politically. I am a pastor in a denomination that takes a stand against homosexuality and I agree with that stand. But in my mind Brian is not wrestling with the issue of homosexuality but with the difficult question of how do we develope relationships with sinners so we can tell them the glorious message of God's love and salvation. If we condemn them from the get go they leave as unaware of that truth as they came. Many people in the world today view Christians today not as the bearers of the Good News but as those who proclaim "God hates homosexuals." I've seen the signs myself and that is as big a lie from the enemy as any he has ever propigated. The real message that the church must proclaim is that Grace is greater than all my sin.....even the sin that allows me to condemn someone for one sin while I excuse myself for another. Is homosexuality wrong? The Bible makes it perfectly clear that it is.....but my task is to love the sinner in such a way that they see the love of Jesus in me and seek his forgiveness on the merits of how he has forgiven me of my sin and will so the same for them. In the church we have our favorite sins.....it used to be don't smoke, don't chew and don't go with girls that do.....the sins have changed but the judgemental attitudes haven't. In the words of Charles Sheldon....and the bracelet...WWJD?

Whew;

I don't know if any one will wade through the blog to get to my 2 cents worth or not, however here it comes.

I happen to be a Pastor in that evil bastion of crankiness known as The Southern Baptist Convention.

That said, we need to be as Biblical as humanly possible. The Bible said for us to reject homosexuality. It also says to convert the sinner.

Enough said?

Amen

Having received a friend dying from HIV/AIDS into our congregation I have been through this struggle firsthand. My friend still loved his former partner (also suffering from AIDS)as a person he once shared his life with, even though he had repented of his sin and come to realize the depravity of that lifestyle. He did not want to reject his former partner, but rather lead him to the grace and love of Jesus that he was now experiencing. We (the church) responded the same way. It is certainly possible, and necessary, to love sinners like Jesus did, while exposing sin. Of course, we call them to turn from any sinful behavior, standing ready to invest ourselves in helping them do so.

I think that we need to tell all divorced and remarried persons in our congregations that they must stop committing adultery and return to their first marriages. That would be the only way they could prove that they had repented and be worthy to continue to sit with the dozen or so left in the pews.
It is interesting that we are silent about "our" sin and so focused on the sin of "those" people. I am amazed at the rigid certitude and conviction I hear in these comments that people know what God knows and have perfect understanding of scriptures written thousands of years ago, with the nuances of words, and the layers of culture that are completely foreign to Western thought. I hear a lot of fear and if our hearts are fearful, our ears and minds are closed to the Spirit. The Jewish authorities of Jesus day thought they were the experts in what the scriptures meant. Their certitude kept the poor and anyone who couldn't measure up out of the temple. Whatever happened to faith and our belief that only God knows the heart? Could we just love each other and leave the rest to God, or is that too scary? What would happen if we actually let God rule?

Calling the Bible the root of prejudice toward gays and lesbians is hypocritical and dishonest at best. Stupid arguments about this or that interpretation of a biblical passage are completely meaningless.s

The problem I have with any of the discussions about homosexuality and the Bible is that that they always ignore the fact that the people involved are already prejudiced against gay and lesbian people before they even know what the Bible says about homosexuality.

That means that the prejudice is the result of something other than having just read the Bible.

It's deep-seated, almost instinctual. As such it does not follow or reject Biblical canon.

For most people, the Bible, just like the Koran, only re-affirms their pre-existing prejudices toward gay and lesbian people. It does not create them. But it is used to justify them.

Just as the Bible, the Koran, etc., have been used to justify arguments both for and against racism, misogyny, slavery, etc.

But just because prejudice, which is after all simply a feeling, is deeply seated or even instinctual, it does not mean that it is morally correct or incorrect or derived from a logically reasonable thought process. It's an unthinking, atavistic response to someone or something that is different. Whatever that difference is.

This is the source of not only anti-gay prejudice, but every other unthinking prejudice that exists. The dark side of the human soul.

What I find hypocritical about most of those that call themselves Christians is that they tell people who are gay or lesbian that their most deeply held feelings of identity are inherently wrong, a sin, and they challenge us to examine and control or even remove those feelings. That identity. That person. Commit an abortion of personality as it were.

But they are unwilling to take that challenge themselves and to at least acknowledge the true source of their prejudices toward us.

It's not the Bible's fault that people are prejudiced toward gays and lesbians, it's the peoples fault.

So put the Bible to the side of the dinner table. It is blameless and cannot be used as self-justification for anti-gay feelings. What Joe Carter likes to call the "ick factor". You alone are responsible. Your "salt" has already been corrupted before you have even had a chance to stray from Biblical teaching.

I of course, prefer pepper. Well, and Garlic salt. And Trader Joe's 21 seasoning salute can't be beat.

Thank you.
This issue has been used as a litmus test. As if we are more concerned with identifing people as friend or foe. Answering pastorally as Brian did is not being soft on sin. Why are we more concerned with being right than with finding the right way to lead people into a life full of grace and truth? The gospel is not a test, but an invitation into a life giving relationship.

So....did Brian ever answer the couple's question? I read where he got together with them later in the week. When he did, was the question answered directly, or did he deflect the question by talking about the difficulty of the issue?

If you follow the cyclical apostacy of historic Israel, you realize that when the leaders no longer spoke a clear message, then confusion led to wanton idolatry and disregard for the principles of God. McClaren should take a moratorium on speaking about homosexuality and utilize his quite time to study God's Word. Lose the voice of the father and lose the family. Lose the voice of the prophet and lose the nation. Time to speak truth in love.

The Bible Is clear on the act of homosexuality, it is a sin. We need to treat homosexuals as we treat alcoholics, drug users, or any sinner, with love and understanding. We need to get away from all of the hype and treat this sin as we treat any other. We need to love the person. This doea not in any way say that we condone the act. It says we are doing as our Lord did. We can help people escape from homosexua;ity by sharing the gospel with them. It will be by the power of the Holy Spirit that they will fimd release. The church is not for the3 saved but the unsaved.

It seems to me that the apostle Paul was being "pastoral" in his letters to the churches, but answered the question of whether or not homosexuality was a sin very clearly. He said in Romans that God gave these people over to a depraved mind to do what is not natural. How more plain can you get than that? Other Scriptures say that homosexuals will not get into heaven very clearly. I would be more concerned about being biblical than your definition of "pastoral". Find some courage somewhere and be biblical. Tell people what they need to know instead of pandering to what they want to hear!

Brian writes: "Usually when I'm asked about this subject, it's by conservative Christians wanting to be sure that we conform to what I call "radio-orthodoxy," i.e. the religio-political priorities mandated by many big-name religious broadcasters." Is it really necessary to take this kind of jab? I think not. Prophets and priests are both a part of God's economy. We need both. We need to listen to both.

This was an unfinished story. What did he tell the couple? I would of told the couple that while the bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin. The church is full of sinners. In fact we all are sinners. And because of that the parents would be treat with respect and that the church would engulf them in love. It's cheesy but love the sinner hate the sin. I would then begin praying that myself and members of the church would have a positive effect on the live's of these men and they would turn away from sin.

I just preached a message titled "The Gay Culture, Call...and Proper Christian Response" at my church. Having preached for 23 years, it's still amazing to me that sermons like this were hardly necessary not so many years ago.

Here's truth (the one Brian seems to have forgotten): our pro-gay culture and society has grown to such an extent that to even mention homosexuality as--gasp!--sin, labels us haters, and even worse, not just by the liberal media, Hollywood, etc., but by liberal "anything goes" churches. Not wanting to be considered in such a negative light, churches and pastors by the truckload are all of a sudden troubled by black and white scriptures that were never questioned by the Church until recently. Mercy, grace, love? Of course, to every sinner--that's a big duh! (After all, that's what all of us receive from God each day). But 5-year moratoriums, increased 'tolerance' (buzz word for anything goes), and a willingness to blame the hated Religious Right for trying to hang on and promote--without shame or apology--real Bible doctrine smacks of a serious theological 'cave in'...the same type that is destroying the Mainlines.

Folks, absolutes are created by God, not by you, me, the other bloggers, or Brian. And, if they're clearly described in His Word, it's not just our duty, but our CALL to proclaim them, regardless of how others--even those who also claim Christ--criticize us, and ultimately, God's Word.

My Friend - I can't believe this! I reckon you get 10 out of 10 for wisely holding off before you replied, but to say "You don't know what you really think", you may as well say you don't know what you think about communion, or Sundays, or good works, faith, or anything else that gets a clear bit of scripture given to it. I mean, from beginning to end the Bible is clear. To be sure, you don't write anyone off nor ignore or get rid of them... but, Christ's basic message is "I came to set you free", so that's your message to your church. No one's under any illusion that continual pornography is acceptable to a Christian, so why would something like homosexuality be? Your dilemma I think is not whether it is sin or not, but rather how to handle it in your church.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they (homosexuals to) might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent. At first I wanted to disagree with Brian, but it is eternal life that Jesus came to offer us and that is what we need to offer also not just to a few but to all. I underlined the word might because isn’t it unusual that the all powerful Jesus Christ used the word might in the opening of this verse “they might know thee”. No one will change or give up something for something they know nothing of. They will only change or give something up until they know something about it. Now back to might, not every one will want to know about the true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. But for those who do (including homosexuals), we need to teach them about Jesus Christ and what he expects from us and them so they might know the true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent.

Scripture speaks very clearly regarding this subject as well as how we are to treat people who are in the midst of such a struggle. We are to love them, and reach out to them in His love. I find it disconcerting that there is such ambiguity on either of these subject. Scripture is clear on how we are to see sin and how we are to see sinners. They are two entirely different concepts.

We need to focus more on what scripture teaches and less on our opinion and experiences from within this world. The world is changing, scripture will never change.

Rick

Sounds like the old situation ethics to me

Hum? Wow? Is Brian saying "Let's take a break from God's Word?" Though this man intriques and challenges me in many of his writings, just not always sure how and when to apply his emerging trends. He is trying to make "Christianity" cool? Let's tell the truth in love. (Eph 4:15) Tough issue, but then God's Word (not man) takes on such issues. Take heed!

Brian,
Allow me to say "Thank-You" for putting this into words. I grow so weary of being seen as "wishy-washy" when approaching this or other issues from a pastoral perspective. I think your approach would greatly raise the level of conversation without loosing touch with the Bible or the people who read it - especially if the entire community agreed to approach it this way.

I think there are certain issues that Scriptures are very clear about. Homosexuality is a sin and so are lying, adultery, stealing etc. The issue that many of us are struggling with, is, how to hate the sin AND love the sinner. We are so often confronted with so much hatred to the sin AND sinner that we are have in the process sinned and committed self-righteousness, pride, lack of love etc. We need to go back to scriptures to see how Jesus loved the sinner but not the sin. How did He show compassion to the prostitutes, the outcasts, tax collectors and drew them to Himself without condoning their actions? This is what we need learn and teach our people in the churches. We need to learn, accept and practice GRACE.

Wow - you don't know what the Bible says about homosexuality. Get out of the ministry now.

As a pastor I am not a postition to judge, Jesus is the judge, and I am weary of those who want to define homosexuality as a sin. The Bible is addressing specific circumstances, not the lifestyle as a whole. Those who are gay, are not all the same, some live quiet lives, committed to serving God, living in a faithful relationship and who are important members of society.

"we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex." I had to check to see if I was reading John Kerry.
The biblical references are clear and the pastoral ramifications are commanded. Homosexuality is destructive to our humanity and we love people so much that we will be honest and tell them that their path is destructive to their very being. If they are unbelievers we love them, share with them, help them, go to their house and eat with them in order to bring the reality of the good news to their life. If they are believers we are to confront in love and if necessary follow the instructions of Jesus in Matt 18. We do not need 5 or 10 years to think and to study the situation. Some people may not have 5 or 10 years (depending on ones theology) while we fail to carry out the clear instructions of scripture.

Still, we need not abandon or soft peddle our convictions. I have found it effective to simply point out that I do have my convictions, but that for the time being it would be better served to get to know one another. People listen better in the context of a relationship. Once people know our heart we are in a position to give them a piece of our mind.

Perhaps I'm not as enlightened as my emerging brethren, but I don't see the need to vacillate for 5 years about an issue the Bible makes crystal clear. It's not "radio-orthodoxy" to say that homosexual behavior is sin; it is biblical. I cannot join the McClaren fan club over this article and applaud his openmindedness. A five-year moratorium on homosexuality is like praying for guidance about whether one should cheat on his spouse. The issue is already settled. It is not forward-thinking, openminded or culturally relevant to leave the question hanging; it is disobedience. Compassion has been conspicuously missing in the Christian response to homosexuality. Of that there is no doubt. But we need not overcompensate for excesses by ignoring the truth. It is not compassionate to condemn a person for their sin; neither is it compassionate to affirm them in it. If the author's motivation for taking a temporarily neutral position is to keep the peace in a congregation divided over the issue, then he is guilty of cowardice. (I doubt this is the case)If he is genuinely unsure of his position, then I hope he discovers the truth and has the courage to communicate it with kindness.

So Brian, although they might not be the big issues for today: how do you feel about polygamy, cohabitation, or sacred non-marital sex? We all agree that sex shouldn't comodify people, but perhaps it could be something to unite them for a part of their journey, such that God would be glorified. Don't you think we should get beyond our narrow traditional conceptions of the structure of "marriage"? Many of those don't even work anyway. Thoughts? Comments?

This issue is difficult because it involves the question of identity. Can you tell a gay person that they can never live out who they are? But the bible is quite clear on this matter. We as christians need to listen to God. He knows how difficult we think this is, and he wants to help. He will help us to be good samatians, and to be clear on what is right. In Norway the bishops ans scholars have debated this issue for a few years. They have now concluded: They disagree - both views must be accepted!! I don't think extra time will help here. We need to tell people what God says in his word - in the end that's what counts.

Principles of Bible interpretation teach us that silence on a matter does not imply approval thereof. In the same way, McLaren' silence on same-sex sex should not be interpreted as approval.

People trapped in homosexual sin are in need of a saviour not a change of behaviour.

In my preaching, I have always followed Biblical principles when it comes to calling people to God's better way. In no way do I place homosexuality as a greater sin than say, adultery or lying, but nonetheless, the Bible is clear on this matter; it is wrong. However, let us also remember that Jesus tended to rub the moral right, the wrong way, and on many occasions. There is a well known passage in the Scriptures that would be translated as thus in 2006; "Look at Jesus... sitting there in the pub, eating with gays and prostitutes..." Love and compassion by all means... but truth as written in the Divine Word, always! It's not a case of being politically correct but rather a case of following God's leadings in a way that Jesus would; love the sinner but hate the sin!

What Brian shares is alright but he doesn't want to let himself GO BIBLICAL in his statement. It would have been nice if he had EXEGETED I Corinthians 6:9 through 11 instead of his EISEGESIS from Brian 1:1... The "such were some of you" gives context for the regeneration and renewal process for all who have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Two points- first, it's clear that the underlying purpose behind McLaren's article was not to answer the question or finish the story but to engage the reader in thinking and discussion. Mr. McLaren that is why I love to read your work. Please keep writing and in so doing continue to spur us on to think and to pray before we speak and act.

Secondly, I like to add something more to his call for all to think/reflect, speak/dialogue on the subject-- and that is to love in action. I read a superb article by Tim Wilkins of Cross Ministry (published by Rick Warren's weekly newsletter-- I believe it was entitled "God's love for the homosexual") that called us to love the sinner- with action not mere words. Perhaps if we spent some time serving in love while we were reflecting and praying on our theology and doctrine we'd learn to live up to our lofty words.

The difficulty we have with confronting homosexual acts as sin is we have given up confronting so many other sinful acts. How can we decry the one sin when we wink at or condone so many others? To sound the clarion call against homosexual acts alone shows we do not abhor sin but rather abhor only that which offends us. This is especially easy when we are not tempted by that sin.

There is a huge discrepency in the title of the article and the content of the article itself! Are we talking about the issue of homosexuality? - not really! The answers had not been given, the question had not been studied! Are we talking about handling the issues per se? then there is not enough time in the article to actually develop the idea of Jesus way of loving people! I don't think U need to be "pastoral" to love people and not to jump on them for probing your opinion on it! But at the same time tolerance has a limit as well. Pls do coordinate the title and the content in the future!

Brian, I fear, is continuing to slide away from biblical Christianity into something I still cannot define clearly. His article is warm and feels good to some and seems right to postmodern ears, after all no one wants to seem harsh or to abrupt. That would be mean spirited.

I too agree that we should listen carefully when asked any number of significant questions - especially after or before worship! (This seems to be the time when emotions are very high; I would say a time when the LORD is moving powerfully among His people.)

I can understand Brian's 'heart' for people - I share that, yet, the challange for the Church in every generation is to call the unrepentant to repentance and walk with them in fellowship to a new beginning. Therefore, I would think we should confront the issue head on and openly teach the scripture and seek the Lord's healing for all sexual sin. To call for a moritorium isn't just a flip-flop its turning a blind eye to a serious problem that is killing thousands, causing havoc in households across the world and tearing at the core of the family.

For this to occur, it will take Pastors whose hearts are turned to God and His Word; they will have to be sold out to Jesus and have a great love for His people. They will have to be willing to wade hip deep in some difficult relationships and be willing to stay the course in the lives of men and women who are precious to the Lord.

This approach isn't full of warm good feelings. Healing is often difficult and painful, yet, God be praised, neither is the Cross.

Homosexuality is an issue which causes controvery in our society and in the church. But does that mean that we should not talk about it? I don't believe so. I do not believe that a minister should constantly preach or teach against homosexuality, but that when it is appropriate, when teaching a lessons dealing with the sin of homosexuality it needs to be addressed. Sin is sin. In the same way that all other sins need to be addressed, homosexuality needs to be address. I have worked with people who struggle with homosexuality, in the church and outside of the church. I have had counseling clients who came to counseling for different reasons and they were comfortable with their decision to be a homosexual, so we did not address that issue.

I am not sure if the inability to read the Bible and frame out an answer is a post-modern or Brian McLaren problem. Pastors have been called throughout the ages to seek God's Word and answer people's questions as led by the Holy Spirit. God has given us the answer and I don't think we need to spend 5 years discussing it. If the answer reflects a political view or not, so be it.

I would challenge Alex (the 2nd post) and many of the rest who shared their thoughts to re-read Brian's article and open their "ears to listen" rather than read the article with their eyes half-closed. I believe you would see that Brian does indeed mention Scripture and that he never implies dishonest answers; instead, he said that we need to be "more" than just honest, we need to be pastoral, wise, and compassionate. Jesus was of course honest, but Brian was trying to say that Jesus did not always give a cut-to-the-point answer, but usually... a cut-to-the-heart question. Again, I encourage you Alex, and other readers, to re-read the article again, humble as little children. I don't think you will see "doublespeak".

A pastor friend of mine forwarded Mr. McClaren's article to me. I am not a pastor; I am merely a lay person, however, Mr. MrClaren's article struck a nerve with me. With all due respect to Mr. McLaren, I think a 5-year moratorium on this issue is a cop-out. I believe the church must take a firm stand on issues such as premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion, and other societal cancers. The position does not, however, have to be filled with venomous rhetoric. Instead, it should be modeled after the same grace and forgiveness that God offers everyone, regardless of race, creed or sexual preference. In my non-pastoral layman’s view, all sin is equally distasteful in God’s eyes, from stealing a two-cent piece of candy at the supermarket to living in a homosexual lifestyle. The Good News is that all sins (except blasphemy) are equally forgiven in God’s eyes, too.

So what position should the church take on the issue of homosexuality? I think the answer to the question is coined in the over-hyped, but not-so-rhetorical phrase: What Would Jesus Do? The church should not condemn or reject those who practice homosexuality, any more than Jesus condemned or rejected those He came to save (John 3:17, Matthew 9:12). Nor should the church condone homosexuality. I believe the position of the church should be to clearly state that homosexuality is a sin. Although God hates sin, He loves the sinner. In the same way, the church should reject the homosexual lifestyle while embracing the homosexual. The promise of the Gospel is that if we confess our sin, God is faithful and just and will forgive our sin and purify us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Once we accept God’s grace and forgiveness, God no longer sees the sin in our lives; we are made perfect in His sight (Hebrews 10:14). As such, the only appropriate response is to turn away from our sin (repent) and live our lives in such a way that reflects God’s mercy and forgiveness.

If we remain silent for 5 years (or 5 minutes!), the secular world will just continue to buy into the lie that homosexuality is not a “choice” and that homosexuals are “born that way.” God did not create man to be with man any more than God created man to be with beast. God created the covenant bond to exist between one man and one woman, and if we, the church, sit on the sidelines with our hands in our pockets while the rest of the world continues to believe otherwise, shame on us!

I find it interesting to have so many experts who love to throw scripture around and I wonder how many of them have actually either struggled with homosexual feelings or had a loved one come to them and tell them they were gay. It's just so easy to pound our Bibles and proclaim its inerrant truth, but it's entirely a different matter when you have been touched by it personally. I don't think Brian is trying to be cool or isn't taking a position. It's the fact that we as Christians are missing the point. We need to love and minister to the true root of the pain. It's convenient to constantly tell someone they are sinning and tell them what we think and what the Bible thinks. It's not convenient, however, for most Christians to reach out in love and want to walk alongside someone, even if they don't change. I have also met homosexual couples who could put heterosexual couples to shame when it comes to their love and respect for each other and their committment. That might be heresy to some folks out there, but if we want so desperately to be right all of the time, maybe the evangelical community needs to set an example, instead of having the same divorce rate that non-Christians have. God sees our hearts on an individual basis. If we strive to be reflect the character of God, why do we lump people under a convenient category of "sin?" If that were true, how many of us would truly be "adulterers?" How many of us would truly be "gluttons?" "Hard-hearted?" "Jealous?" Brian speaks from a place of self reflection and true pondering of how we must minister..Anyone can read scripture and support a political agenda, but to truly contemplate what it means for today takes courage and spiritual maturity. Maturity takes time - thus the five year idea he mentions. Love isn't convenient, and truth must be sought after carefully.

Homosexuality is sin. but yes we should always show the same grace and love to all.

But hey while were not talking about it, lets not talk about adultery, murder, theft, lust, envy, pride, oh why not say lets just never talk about sin period.

I am an exgay who has long struggled with how to pastor those who remain in homosexuality. Although I strongly believe that homosexuality is a sin, I also believe that many in the church have placed homosexuality on the highest rung of sin. As a former homosexual, I had a very poor view of Christians. Part of this was a cultural viewpoint coming from the gay community, but much of it was through unpleasant interaction with Christians. It is my heart to see people come to know and love Jesus. I want to remove every barrier possible to do that without compromising God's truth. That's not an easy job!

I agree with the need to be wise. I've had some friends who were homosexuals, then again I've also had some friends who were gossipers. It's important to be inclusive in Christian Love, but remember & preach, that Christ's demands are pretty exclusive! As a pastor, I've had to address this subject. And it's important to remember, Paul did not make a heirarchy of sins. In fact Jesus implied, in his "woe's", that religious pride, could be more eternally dangerous than sexual immorality. The church focuses way too much on issues of smoking, cursing, homosexuality, etc., and not enough on issues of gossip, slander, greed, gluttony, rebellion, etc. That being said, if someone who is or has been homosexual, desires to be a Christian, or claims to be a committed Christian, it is IMPERATIVE that we teach them clearly from God's Word, their lifestyle must change. (we should tell EVERYONE this) We must help people be accountable, discipling them in the Love and Firmness of Christ Jesus. Continued homosexual relations after "conversion" is not acceptable, nor is lying, stealing, pride, greed, gossip, rebellious attitudes, slander, etc. Maybe if those in a homosexual lifestyle saw the Body of Christ towing the line on those other sins we reportedly denounce, they wouldn't feel singled out as "sinful". I believe sexual sin is unique b/c it affects one's spirit, mind, & emotions, more deeply than some other sins. So, it is extremely dangerous. But ask this question: Which is doing more damage in God's Kingdom, Rebellious Gossips, or Homosexuals? The answer is obviously the 1st. Convincing the Church of it's own sin, is quite difficult...

I'm not a pastor but our Church is having these issues. My feeling is that they should be allowed in the Church since they are sinners like the rest of us. I don't feel however that they should be in leadership, just the same as I don't think that someone who commits adultry, murder, steals or any of the other sins should be in leadership.

Now minimally, I am confused. First, I think a case can be made that the biblical and theological understanding of the homosexual question is not that complex. Yes there are differing interpretations, but "complexity" is not the issue. I think they are fairly easy to understand. What's needed is choice. Thus I am a pastor who believes I know a lot about what I should think about this because I have made a hermeutical choice. I do not feel confused. Nor do I think I should feel confused. But what does now confuse me is that the proposition “There may be a legitimate context for some homosexual relations” may be true. Please show me how the “biblical arguments are [so] nuanced and multilayered” that I should entertain the possible truth of this statement? And, of course, liberal theologians have already made this claim in varying degrees of strength for a long time now.
Are the “pastoral ramifications” “staggeringly complex?” Not in my estimation. A lot of pastoral work is very hard. I worked in campus ministry for eleven years and met with homosexually oriented students. A few of these were long-term situations. For example, I met for two years straight, usually every week, with a young man who was homosexually oriented. I can tell you that I loved him then and love him now while at the same time holding to the view that homosexual orientation, on the biblical view, is sin. This did not seem to offend him. Nor was I ever perceived to be some kind of great offense to anyone I met with in this regard. There’s no strictly logical incompatibility between holding to such a biblical view and loving anybody. Personally, I see my own sins and failures past and present so clearly at times that I feel a capacity to love anybody (not that I always do, and that failure itself I see as sin). Personally I did not feel some kind of "staggering" complexity about these encounters. I find a lot of interpersonal situations very complex.And some of these situations have caused me to struggle with the scriptures too.
I think Brian has a kind of false trichotomy at work here. It’s either conservatives or liberals, both of whom “seem to know exactly how we should think.” So, there’s conservatives who know what “we” should think. Then there are liberals who know what “we” should think. And finally there’s “we.” But I don’t want to be associated with any of these three groups. I want to be a person who knows – as far as this is possible – what to think (as I believe Christ knew who he was, unless we have a confused Willem-Dafoe type Kazantzakis Christ who really is a pretty confused Christ), and in that thinking be humble, and also be a person who loves all others as Christ loves all others. I’d also like to be loved even though I am not in any of the three McLaren groupings. And finally, I want mostly I give thanks to Brian for the work that God is doing through him to draw people to Jesus.

Brian's article is less about homosexuality and more about being a wise pastor that doesn't alienate, hurt or needlessly turn away those with legitimate questions and concerns. This is something I believe we can all learn from.

There is no doubt that homosexuality is not God's intention or design - Gen 1:27-28 - yet niether was stealing and cheating people out of money - Luke 19 - but Jesus' response was quite shocking and controversial.

The question for me is this: God's Spirit is working and drawing people to Himself, am I going to help or hinder. I continually pray for sensitivity, discernment and more love.

I did not read that McLaren does not know where he stands on the issue of homosexuality. What I read is that he made a decision not to blurt it out without considering the effect on the questioner. As a student in Bible college, I had to be involved in a ministry every semester. As a freshman, the only spots left open were in "street ministry", or street evangelism. When I got to Atlanta, the only spots left were in the midtown area, rampant with prostitutes, male prostitutes, and drug users and dealers. As a senior, I was still in that same ministry, in that same area.

My stance on homosexuality, prostitution, etc. has not become more conservative as a result of what I saw and how I was forced to deal with it. Likewise, my compassion for those caught in such lifestyles also deepened. I agree that we are to be confident on the biblical stance of homosexual action as sin; however, I also understand McLaren's way of handling the situation in the way he did. The Church all too often takes a position and either pummels the lost with it (then cries "persecution" when we are ridiculed), or lean too far into the area of condoning sin. It is time we took a conservative stance with a compassionate plea, letting the Word and Spirit of God do what only God can do.

Thank you, pastors and ministers for your dedication in ministry. May God bless you daily.

Well, this has certainly generated a lot of points of view -- but you warned us that it would. I have had the unfortunate problem of having a lesbian daughter. I've also had to deal with homosexuals and lesbians as a pastor. In all of those situations I've taken the position that I can "accept" the individual without "approving" of their conduct. After all, is that what Jesus did. Like many of you there is no question in my mind, either as a father of a lesbian or a pastor who's dealt with the gay community, that homosexuality is clearly a sin as set forth in Scripture. I believe that and I teach that. But at the same time, if we are to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, which is clearly God's purpose for all of us, then Jesus becomes the model for our response to sinners -- of which I am one. Our response is to accept all people without approving of their behavior. I don't think any kind of moratorium is necessary. I think that we simply need to continually refer ourselves to the question, "Lord, how can You be glorified in this matter? How do You want me to respond to these people who are gay, or who are adulterers, or who overeat or who smoke, or who are alcoholics or drug addicts, or who are taking advantage of the welfare system or whatever?" When a person comes to that place of accepting Christ into their lives, then the process begins to bring that person into the image of Jesus Christ. So many in our world today shun the local church, as did my daughter, simply because they do not feel welcome or accepted. If that was the attitude of Jesus Christ toward us prior to our conversion to Christianity, I submit to you that all of us would be in "deep yogurt."

Excuse me but we are missing a major point here...

Someone said "we welcome people who are divorced... why not welcome gays?"

People don't get up in the morning and get divorced EVERYDAY and repeat the sin over and over and over. And remember divorce IS acceptable in the case of adultery

Homosexuals sin over and over and over. NO WHERE in God's word is homosexuality acceptable.

Where is the common sense in that? Do you people even read the bible?

It has been my prayer that the Body of Christ would unite in Love to answer without fear or shame the truth of the scriptures. Both Old and New testaments speak plain and clear of God's views on homosexuality (Lev.18:22 & Romans 1:25-27).The Word of God should never be compromised by "political correctness" or public opinion. Speaking as a pastor, If we as the clergy are afraid to stand on God's word, then we should just close up shop.

Those of us who consider ourselves leaders in the body of Christ should NEVER equivocate, hesitate, or apologize for anything that the Word of God is absolutely clear about. Homosexuality, like sex outside of marriage, stealing, coveting your neighbor's Porsche, and getting intoxicated, is sin. Why? The Bible says so. Period. Get over it. Preach it. Stand on it. DO NOT WAVER. Always use the Scriptures to answer such a question, i.e. "The Bible says . . ." Let them argue with the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword . . . and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." "And take up the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God." Use the sword. Keep it sharp and handy.
You did good to first reply with a question. You could have asked two more. 1. I'd still like to know why it's so important to you. 2. What if you don't like the answer?
Then one could profitably add, "I'd like to know what you believe."
When we answer without knowing the real question, we're fools and speaking rashly. Dig until you uncover the real issue, then answer by quoting the Bible, from a clear, modern, accurate version.

P.S. And remember, the Bible says, "Like a trampled spring and a polluted well is a good man who gives way before the wicked." Never give way. Stand up for truth. Learn to discern, and learn to use the sword of the Spirit expertly!

No wonder the world is so confused on this issue even Pastors do know the answer. Sin is sin....

I understand completely where Pastor McLaren is coming from. I host a talkback show on a Christian radio station. One week I had a young homosexual man call me. We chatted and I talked about how God was truly interested in him and who he was and desired a relationship with him.

After the call I was inundated with text messages and emails from Christians condemning me and telling me it was my responsibility to tell him he was a sinner and needed to repent (as we all do I must point out... which is strange because I only get this response after talking to people from the homosexual community). Some of the emails were very personally directed at my own faith. I ignored them all and gave them no attention on the air.

The next week that same young man called me back and in tears shared with me how he had picked up a Bible for the first time because he felt like God was genuinely there for him after our conversation. Through our conversation God had started him on a journey of reconciliation and redemption. That conversation and all the conversations I have would look completely different if I pointed out with every person everything people perceive as sin. We need to trust God to take people through that journey.

I'm Waiting for the emerging church to release "The Emerging Church Book of Etiquette". I'm constantly amazed at how much of their aim is to tell the church how wrong it's been and then proceed to rescue us by the "model" examples that they are to the church.
Here's a news release....The church will always get it wrong, because we are sinners unable to resist the flesh that makes life about us. Frankly I don't see the Emerging Church any different. To set man up as the answer to the church's problems is futile but mainly God dishonoring. God established his church and God will keep it. I wish everyone would stop trying to save the church and start being the church.
The way back to being the church God intended is by making him central to the church and not man. God's glory is the chief end/duty of man, not the salvation of the lost. If we compromise God's glory in our outreach efforts/methods to any people groups, we have ceased to be the church.

I am not a pastor, but I believe that there's a great deal of confusion on this blog. When Brian mentioned about a "5 year moratorium", he expressed his incertitude regarding the modality of approaching (as a Christian/pastor) a gay couple. He didn't mean that we should debate whether homosexuality is a sin or not. In fact, he even ackowledged in the article the sinful status of homosexuality. So don't fear, he's not advocating the revision of Scriptures regarding homosexuality.

Other than that, I think he's pretty much right. There is a huge lack of communication skills in the Christian-gay dialogue. In my humble opinion a wise pastor is able to make the distinction between the welcoming part and the discipleship. And when I say "wise", I do not mean intellectual, but with the wisdom that comes from the Holy Spirit. Of course, diplomacy plays a role as well. When apostle Paul approached the Athenians, he didn't start by saying that they are doomed to Hell because they are polytheist. He introduced himself by noticing that they are religious people. Of course, he later presented the message of Gospel. Pastors who deal with gay people need to ask the guidance of the Holy Spirit when communicating with themm even if this means fasting, fervent prayer etc. Maybe that's a better solution than a 5 year moratorium.

So if I understand Brian's advice correctly, when asked questions regarding homosexuality the answer should be "I don't know, but let me pray with you" (atleast for the next 5 to 10 years). I am fairly new to this "emergent" doublespeak (and I mean that in every since of the word) regarding the delivery of truth in "new and refreshing ways", but it seems that it is more about trying to "apologize" for truth than simply proclaiming it. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" was Christ's admonition, but it seems more and more that the leaders of this "new and improved" church movement don't know the truth, or if they know it they are just afraid of sticking to it. I was somewhat excited about the "emergent" movement and had genuinely hoped that it could help bring the church back to a more "biblical" model, but when I hear some of it's more prominent figures like Brian seemingly "question" the churches stance (let alone the biblical stance) on what I believe the Scripture is perfectly clear on, I am having my doubts. This doesn't sound "emergent" at all, but rather a "withdrawal". I can't recall the exact verse but I think that it says something about "Blessed are those who will remain faithful to the end." I think that this would apply to being faithful to the truth of God's Word, even in the face of a "postmodern" culture. There is also another verse that comes to mind, "Let God be true and every man a liar." The older I get, and I am only 38, the more and more convinced I am that what people really want, and most certainly need, is for someone to be willing to tell them the truth, even if it is difficult to swallow. Yes, it should be with a heart of love, but no less the truth irregardless. God help us.

According to the Writer's Almanac, today (1/25/2006) is Virginia Woolf's birthday.

She said, "On the outskirts of every agony sits some observant fellow who points."

I love that, you know.

Because Christians don't just point the finger. That's what the Law did. And that is the way of death.

Christians, like Christ, meet sinners right in the middle of their agony and show them love.

Could it be that "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" (Mt 12:7) whispers that it is often more important that people experience our mercy (practrical orthodoxy) before they experience our legalistic defense of doctrinal orthodoxy? While I too regret the suggestion of a moratorium on pronouncements, I concede that what I often need most is not courage in discerning what is clearly a departure from wholeness, but mercy that accurately reflects Jesus' merciful pursuit of sinners in their brokenness.

I have two comments to make about the article. First of all, there is no biblical context in which a homosexual or lesbian relationship is okay. Our culture is filled with people trapped in various kinds of sinful behavior. It is not loving or truthful to condone sin in any form, just so we can gain a hearing with someone, but it is not necessary to whack off their ears with our biblical swords so that we can defend God's opinion either. You are confusing two different issues in one article.
Yes, we need to love homosexuals whenever we encounter them. I am appalled at the unveiled disgust and hatred that I see Christians foist upon homosexuals. We need more than an evangelical/ pastoral approach; we need big time repentance and a change of heart.
The answer is not to say nothing for a long period of time and watch our culture decay. How utterly foolish is your conclusion. The answer is found in John 4 with the woman at the well.
Do we care enough to minister in this culture? We ought to. However, we need truth and love. Don't water down either one.

It's interesting that there is so much discussion about Homosexuality (which Jesus said nothing about either way) and no discussion about the Rich (which Jesus had ALOT to say about). You would never hear about a church no accepting someone in any regards for being rich even though Jesus was VERY CLEAR that the rich aren't going to heaven. Many churches the non-Jesus passages to exclude Homosexuals, but will avoid any words of Jesus and mine the old testement words on tithing to justify the rich being legitiate in the church.

If someone had pointed out to me my sins before I heard the Good News I probably would not have given my life to the Lord, because I would of known that I could not live up to what was expected. It was through love and mentoring that I came to know Him. Remember hate the sin but love the sinner. There by the grace of God go I. Wisdom is so much better than condemnation. Brian you used wisdom in handling of the situation.

McLaren says he does not want to sound wishy washy but until he stands firm on God's Word not his or my word he will have no back bone.

I resently did a wedding for a young couple and I did not know for sure that these two ladies who attended were practicing homosexuals but I still preached that God blessed unions of the Adam and Eve type not the Adam and Steve type or the Eve and Edie persuasion. I stated that god did not like the sin but he still loved the sinner enough to have sent His Son Jesus to die for them even as He died for me.

I stated that I married according to scripture and that I would not under any cercumstance or duress marry any one outside God's specific order of creation.

To bad there are of our "Pastoral" persuasion those who are neither Hot nor Cold but enough said. I have to answer for me ..... but I pray for you, you, you!

About that couple in the wedding that I performed one was the groom's Aunt the other her "partner" they are no longer together and they were going to ask me to marry them but changed their mind. Praise God! STAND UP! STAND UP! FOR JESUS YE SOLDIERS OF THE CROSS!

I think the homosexual issue is not as "black and white" as I used to think it was, and as some have obviously expressed it is in this forum. It's a very tough issue to deal with and to approach, and so that would easily explain the difficulty in knowing how to answer the question. I used to use the "abomination" excuse to condemn homosexuals, but I think we need to be careful what laws we stand on. Homosexuality has been treated as "the ultimate sin", while we coast on by in our pride, lust and envy without a second thought. I think that Brian's uncertainty of exactly how to answer "the question", shows an authentic honesty that I think we all can learn from. We need to stop acting like we've got God all figured out and let the Holy Spirit lead us in love and not our self-righteous piety. We also need to drop the "hate the sin, love the sinner" crap, because it usually means "I'll love the sinner, as long as they change". That's certainly not gonna make any homosexual (or any other of us sinners) want to come to Jesus.

I believe that Scripture is quite clear regarding the act of homosexuality. It is a sin. However, the issue is that homosexuality is a very complicated lifestyle that encompasses spiritual, psychological, and physical aspects of the person. I believe that Christians are quick to think one-dimensionally, with a focus on "simply" requiring gays to give up the sin without consideration of why they reached that point and what obstacles are preventing them from becoming heterosexual. There needs to be more sensitivity and love within the Church for those who are homosexual. Furthermore, I don't believe we need to wait any longer for action. Believers have been waiting and praying for years. Now is the time to act - with love, compassion, kindness, and faith. Expect God to work in the process!

It seems to me that it would be wise to reframe this discussion, not so much as a disagreement over homosexuality, but as a disagreement over the authority and interpretation of the Scriptures. McLaren's argument acknowledges that (some Biblical arguments to the contrary) there MAY yet be a Godly way to express a homosexual orientation in relationship. For those who believe in Biblical inerrancy, he's already fallen off the map. For those who see the Bible as an Inspired text which should be read as a whole and interpreted by a community to whom God still speaks, there is more room to consider the affirmation of gay relationships.

It seems like everyone wants to love gays and lesbians as Jesus would. We have a serious disagreement about Scriptural inerrancy and interpretation. Maybe we should just argue about that and give the poor gays a break for a spell.

I witnessed to someone who asked me the same question. She had the same concern. She aparently had several homosexual friends and was fearful that if she accepted Christ, she could no longer be friends with these people. I answered honestly that I believe it's not beneficial conduct and that God doesn't condone it nor condem it more than any other "socially acceptable" sexual sin. The issue, as I see it, is that most people can't understand this desire but they have no trouble sympathizing with people who have heterosexual temptations. "A good answer", she said, "I wish other Christians felt the same way."

Face it, the term "gay" is a misnomer. They aren't "gay" when compared to any other group. In fact, the openly practicing homosexuals I personally know are some of the most miserable souls I've ever encountered. It's really sad. I've noted that they tend to "demand" that people, not just accept them, but openly condone their sexual behavior as beneficial to society. If someone dare disagree, they're a bigot or a person of "hate". Strikes me as a very immature position.

The Church has been slowly slouching toward this for the past 100 years. Speak up and tell them the truth. God's not going to bless homosexual activity anymore than He will bless adultry, lying, drunkeness, etc. He also doesn't love them any less than He loves me either.

In an attempt to be relevant, accepting, acceptable, connected, etc., Brian stretches the limits I think. I can appreciate this, and thats why I've read just about everything he's written, met him personally, talked with him candidly, and appreciate deeply his convictions. I think we can take an issue such as Homosexual marriage or any other very contentious issue, become black and white on it, pound our fists on our pulpits, and lose the very audience we want to reach. I would suggest to Brian, and to others, that we re-read the late Stanley Grenz's momumental book on this very issue, "Welcoming, But Not Affirming." But even more than this exercise, I would suggest we re-examine the way Jesus communicated with people. I think Brian is closer to the Jesus model than most of us want to ive him credit for!

I would like to thank you at Leadership for hastening the coming of our Lord by plunging the foremost "Christian" publication of the foremost "Christian" country in the world into apostasy.

Incidentally, the idea that the author is a "leadership" columnist is laughable, for he is as clear an example of indecision and of "the blind leading the blind" as there ever was.

If the Bible is true, then follow it. Or if it isn't, then do & believe whatever you want, but at least have the intellectual honesty to call yourself something other than "Christian".

After all, even the unsaved know that Christians are supposed to believe in and follow the Bible. And rightly so, for what other standard could there be to define what a Christian or Christianity is?

So make a decision, all you "leaders", and choose this day whom you will serve.

Here is the 'to know them is to love them' logic that too quickly enters into this discussion. One can interact with gays and lesbians, love them, share Christ with them, and still challenge them to honor God with their bodies and sexual activities (and the same goes for our relationships with straights).

McL's post uses ad hominem against those who are convinced from Scripture that sexual activity should only take place within the covenant of (1 man 1 woman) marriage. To be convinced of this is to be out of touch ("Welcome to our world"), unwise ("We also need to be wise"), unloving ("And loving"), and impatient ("And patient"). This is not helpful.

I would like to reccommend a book to all of you out there who lie me were stunned to find this is the opinion of one of the so-called Christian leaders in America. George Barna recently published the book Revolution. It's message is that the local church can be good, but do not look to it for your spiritual leadership, as it is no longer trustworthy. To back this he states the appalling worldly trends and focus at churches, including and especially the megachurches. Instead he says that lacking any clear leadership from the "Church", you can have and develop a relationship with God through Jesus Christ with other likeminded people, no matter where you find youself.

Until now, however, I was still unclear why one could not still stay in fellowship with a church and have separate like minded fellowships. Mr. Mclaren hit me between the eyes with his cynical, yet honest view of my faith. His elitest views show not only disagreement about the issue of whether homosexuality is a sin, but a disdain for anyone who possess a firm view, one way or the other. (In fact, if I found homosexuality to be ok in the church, I would still receive his disdain.)'Neither hot, nor cold...'

This could be the beginning of the end of the mega-churches influence, or not. I will watch carefully the response this gets, if any from any of his "brethren" in the other churches.

The danger here lies not in what one man says, but in what others don't say.

Brian,
I pray that you take the time to read this, because your present attitude is dangerous to you and the church.

The Scriptures are very specific about homoseXuality. It does not belong inside the church in any form or fashion.

The only purposes of the church is threefold - teaching the new converts God's Word, edification of the saints, and the care of the widows and orphans of the church. Evangelism is the responsiblity of individual christians and any evangelistic efforts of homoseXuals should be done by individual chrisitians outside the church.

It is most unfortunate that you are not mature enough in your beliefs before you became a pastor.

Bryan Swinney

Some of you are missing the point. The author is not trying to make a stand on the issue (thats not his point), but he is trying to tackle how to pastoral about it. Some of you are doing the same thing he talks about, making this issue above all others, or politizing it. I am against homosexuality or any sin. I think a great many Christians are not handling the situation with respect or how Christ world. If we want to reach everyone for Christ we must understand what people are going through. If we condemn everyone, like the Pharisees, then no one is going to want to become a follower of Christ.

"Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making pronouncements." Really? Does that include such pronouncements as "the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex?" The one who desires to restrain the speech of others should also demonstrate the willingess to expose his own hermeneutical presuppositions to scrutiny.

Homosexuality is a sin, not because I say so, but because God said it in His WORD! Our culture has indeed "exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator" this has led us to the exchanging of natural relations for unnatural ones (Romans 1:25-27). 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 makes it strikingly clear that the sexually immoral, idolators, adulterers, male prostitutes BUT ALSO homosexual offenders will not inherit the Kingdom of God. As a church we need to drive a stake into the ground and not allow the culture to influence our thinking and feelings on this matter. I think Mr. McLaren needs to evaluate his ability to understand God's Word-take a hermeneutics course! There is NO need to sit around and chat about whether homosexuality is wrong while people are headed for hell. We need to lovingly confront those who are rebelling against their Creator. I absolutely agree that we must be patient with, accept and care for gays and lesbians-they are loved by God and Jesus hung out with such people. But their acts are an abomination and a slap in the face of Him who created sex as a blessing in the bonds of heterosexual marriage (Genesis 1:28; 2:24).

As an aside, I suppose since God is against homosexuality, He is also in favor or racism and terrorism. Hmm...that doesn't seem to add up.

"Instead I asked, "Can you tell me why that question is important to you?" There is so much wisdom in this one question! It gives us a way to be pastoral first, prophetic second. May we all respond first like this, then lovingly explain a biblical position on any tough question.

"Some of you are missing the point. The author is not trying to make a stand on the issue (thats not his point), but he is trying to tackle how to pastoral about it. "

McLaren? Not make a stand on an important Biblical issue? Say it ain't so! He likes to duck and dodge a lot of key issues, even in his books. Figuring out what this guy really believes is like trying to nail jell-o to the wall. Oh, and I think the Bible does just fine as a guide without waiting for the supposed "wind of the spirit to set our course."

Brian is wonderful. Many who claim to have the truth about homosexuality sin over issues that have been settled thousands of years ago, issues such as Trinity and others. Five years is okay, and Brian should organize a worldwide prayer to ask for clarity over this issues over our time and other issues as well (e.g.: war, death penalty...) which seem to contradict the Christian message

I feel sorry for people like poster "RDM" who thinks God's Word is so "unequivocal" on this issue. God's word is screamingly silent on the postmodern context of human sexuality. While excellent analysts of this question such as Walter Wink acknowledge that the Bible takes a negative view of homosexuality at one level, he acknowledges the context in which we have to read and discern with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thank God for pastors like Brian McLaren.
Rev. Stephen Bailey
Coquitlam, B.C. Canada

Brian McLaren the Homo-Evangelical
Pastor Mark Driscoll

Well, it seems that Brian McLaren and the Emergent crowd are emerging into homo-evangelicals.

Before I begin my rant, let me first defend myself. Lastly, don’t just rant that I’m yet another angry fundamentalist who does not understand.

First, the guy who was among the first to share the gospel with me was a gay guy who was a friend. Second, I planted a church in my 20’s in one of America’s least churched cities where the gay pride parade is much bigger than the march for Jesus. Third, my church is filled with people struggling with same sex attraction and gay couples do attend and we tell them about the transforming power of Jesus. Fourth, I am not a religious right wingnut. In fact, when James Dobson came to town to hold the anti-gay rally we took a lot of heat for being among the biggest churches in the state, the largest evangelical church in our city, and not promoting the event in our church because we felt it would come off as unloving to the gay community. The men who hosted the event are all godly men and good friends and I’ve taken a few blows for not standing with them on this issue. Fifth, I am myself a devoted heterosexual male lesbian who has been in a monogamous marriage with my high school sweetheart since I was 21 and personally know the pain of being a marginalized sexual minority as a male lesbian.

And now the rant.

For me, the concern started when McLaren the February 7, 2005 issue of Time Magazine said, “Asked at a conference last spring what he thought about gay marriage, Brian McLaren replied, ‘You know what, the thing that breaks my heart is that there's no way I can answer it without hurting someone on either side’”. Sadly, by failing to answer, McLaren was unwilling to say what the Bible says and in so doing really hurt God’s feelings and broke his heart.

Then, Brian’s Tonto Doug Pagitt, an old acquaintance of mine, wrote the following in a book he and I both contributed to called Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches edited by Robert Webber and due out this spring: “The question of humanity is inexorably linked to sexuality and gender. Issues of sexuality can be among the most complex and convoluted we need to deal with. It seems to me that the theology of our history does not deal sufficiently with these issues for our day. I do not mean this a critique, but as an acknowledgement that our times are different. I do not mean that we are a more or less sexual culture, but one that knows more about the genetic, social and cultural issues surrounding sexuality and gender than any previous culture. Christianity will be impotent to lead a conversation on sexuality and gender if we do not boldly integrate our current understandings of humanity with our theology. This will require us to not only draw new conclusions about sexuality but will force to consider new ways of being sexual.”

Although I am unsure exactly what Doug meant by this last statement for safety’s sake I would strongly recommend that all farmers, particularly those surrounding Minneapolis, lock up their sheep at night effective immediately.

And on January 23rd McLaren wrote an article for Leadership that is included below. In it he argues that because the religious right is mean to gays we should not make any decision on the gay issue for 5-10 years.

As the pastor of a church of nearly 5,000 in one of America’s least churched cities filled with young horny people this really bummed me out. Just this week a young man who claims to be a Christian and knows his Bible pretty well asked if he could have anal sex with lots of young men because he liked the orgasms. Had I known McLaren was issuing a Brokeback injunction I would have scheduled an appointment with him and his penis somewhere between 2011-2016.

Lastly, for the next 5-10 years you are hereby required to white out 1 Peter 3:15 which says “But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect” out of your Bible until further notice from McLaren because the religious right forget the gentleness and respect part and the religious left forgot the answer the question part. Subsequently, a task force will be commissioned to have a conversation about all of this at a labrynth to be named later. Once consensus is reached a finger painting will be commissioned on the Emergent web site as the official doctrinal position.

In conclusion, this is all just gay.

Awesome article. One of the most clear-headed things I've heard on this whole issue. Why must THIS be the issue people draw the line on - Jesus was much clearer that we should be feeding the hungry & loving our neighbor! I feel great sadness for my church, knowing that this issue has divided families, made lives so much more difficult, and made people hate Christians for being on BOTH sides of the issue so vehemently. Please keep speaking Brian - we need more wisdom like yours in our lives.

As an addendum to the above post, I've found this link http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm to provide valuable insight into different interpretations of passages. Specifically, I found it very interesting how the choice of words reflects the overall tone, and how that site lists different translations side by side. The site also mentions historical context that can influence translation.

As a casual student of the Bible and religions in general, I cannot say for certain which interpretations are correct, but in general I find people that claim they know exactly what the Bible says to be woefully selective about what they cite. It's also well known that exact meaning is nearly impossible to translate between modern languages and cultures, let alone from completely different cultures 2000 years old. A lot of the Old Testament is about social and legal rules while a lot of the New Testament is very political and aimed at Roman society (hence all the references to ritualistic sex) and the corrupt Jewish religious establishment. As such, the Bible was written with these audiences in mind.

Personally I can see that God's word is inerrant and timeless, but unfortunately our means of conveying His word is comically illequipped.

A 5 year moratorium? Two Thousand years of unchanged NT scripture should be enough consideration I would think. It really isn't a matter of thousands of Christian pastors not knowing how to react to this sin, it is a "few" who are trying to ride the fence, so as to not make anyone mad at them.

My daughter was a prostitute a one time in her life. I loved her. I was patient with her. Let me say it again. I LOVED HER, I loved he so much that I told her that if she did not stop being a prostitute, repent and turn to Jesus, she was most certainly going to hell. I loved her so much that I could not spare her the truth.

Aside from whether that young couple in Brian's story found a place that would welcome the parent's to their wedding, the greatest love they could should their homosexual parents would be to tell them the truth about their eternal destiny, unless their sinful choices are not overcome. I didn't write the rules: God did.
pastorjerry

In his post Brian is putting forth a patient and compassinate approach to a question that is causing debate and division over the entire church. Seeking the question behind the question takes discipline and patience and more importantly, the willingness to be compassionate in listneing to someone else's point of view. Because we listen to other's point of view does not mean however that we have to condone or accept it or even make the other feel good about holding the point of view. I don't see the confusion Brian talks about on the matter of homosexuality as sin. It is, just like the entire laundry list the bible puts forth. My belief and what I teach does not mean I have to argue with someone who disagrees. I can listen and take my turn and state my belief confidently while lucidly supporting it and the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest.

I praise Brian for his putting forth a model of patience and constructive conversation, but I don't entirely agree with his reasoning, particularly the statement, "After all, many important issues in church history took centuries to figure out." These many important issues did not go unaddressed for centuries. In fact, in the many important issues that shaped and/or defined what the church believes, people took sides and stated beliefs then argued those beliefs. Only after centuries of constructive conversation was some firm universal statement made (I'm thinking the Council of Nicea here). Not everyone agreed and we shouldn't expect everyone to agree now on the issue of homosexuality.

One final thought...perhaps some of the views we are reading about in this stream of conversation are the result of five, ten or even fifteen or more years of prayer, study and conversation.

Rather than a moratorium against talking about homosexuality, I'd prefer a moratorium on extremist rhetoric on both sides of the issue. McLaren's solution smacks of the parent who enforces a moratorium on dating for a teen because he/she does not want the child to have sex. It's a legalistic solution, built on the premise that biblical evangelicals cannot control themselves in the presence of divisive cultural issues. This may be the case for a cadre of televangelists and politicians whose very survival depends on taking an extreme position and refusing to budge. But I tend to think that many of us are up to the task of a more nuanced and thoughtful discussion of what's right, what's wrong and why we believe so.

The best lies are half-truths smiling sweetly. The Holy Spirit *has* spoken. The 'Emergent Church' just can't accept what he said. Grace and Truth. Deliverance is impossible without fully embracing both. Homosexual behavior is clearly sin and eternally fatal if unrepented, but there is deliverance in Christ, freely available to all (thank God!).

How about a hypothetical?

If a couple came up to Brian and said, "Is gossip wrong?" or "Is lying wrong?" Would he give a straight answer? Would there be this anxiety?

It all feels like there is some internal need to apologize for what God has said on the subject.

Hashman

It's interesting that the majority of comments vilify Brian simply for not outright condemning homosexuality and bringing the whole hellfire and damnation speech down on his congregants.

I think what I said earlier has been in this way confirmed. It's not about what the Bible says about homosexuality that motivates these people, it's the need to condemn. The majority of commenter's I've read certainly would be condemning gay people to hell whether or not they had ever read even a single word of the Bible. Thats because the Bible is not the source of their prejudice about gay people. That source is something dark and has nothing to do with redemption or compassion.

Quit blaming the Bible for a sin of prejudice, arrogance and willfulness that is yours alone.

Perhaps this is question than one posted earlier.

If a couple (man and woman) who were devoted to one another came to Brian and said, "I am so in love with this woman and I can't imagine my life without her. Do you think it would be a sin for me to divorce my wife and marry her?" Would he get a different kind of answer? And why? Would coming up with the right answer be as agonizing?

As a lay person, I am disappointed with the lack of clear leadership that the church is offering in this area. I visited the UK recently, arriving just as the first gay 'marriages' were being trumpeted by the media. When I asked my christian freinds about their thoughts on the subject, I found that they could offer no discernable message. I can only conclude that the lack of a cogent opposition sent out a clear 'gay marriage is OK' message to the world at large.

I would like to offer a question and an observation.

The question is to do with how our personal and institutional reltionships relate. The above discussion has much to say on personal relationships and it includes good advice such as 'we should not hate gay people', and good questions such as 'how can we embrace the sinner without endorsing the sin' etc. How does this relate to our instituional relationships, and what happens when law-makers look to the church for advice when they wish to send a message to secular society at large?

My observation is that, although I have never been confronted with Brian's question, there have been many occassions in my professional capacity that I have had to give bad news to my clients, often to the effect that they cannot do what they want to do, sometimes with disastrous consequences on their aspirations. The line I hold, with fear and trembling, is to tell the truth as plainly as I can as soon as I can, and not to obfuscate or prevaricate on the matter. If I was to receive some bad news from a pastor, I hope he would offer it to me in the same way. I know I will not like it, but at least I would know the choices that confront me.

Should this be the message of the church; if you want to follow Christ, you will have to come out of your gay lifestyle?

i agree that homosexuality has improperly been turned into a greater sin than others, though all/any of them seperate us from God.

however, hasn't homosexuality been a sin since the old testament? didn't paul deal with this issue in the new testament as well? what's so different with our society than theirs? why could they declare sin and we can't?

what do you think 5 more years will really accomplish?

While it's often unsettling to hear commentary on such a polarizing, litmus-test issue that doesn't neatly resolve into a point by point breakdown to be recited during the next purpose driven dialogue, I respect the process that Brian takes us through over the course of the article, which seems to serve more as a catalyst for discussion and enlightenment.

This appears to be reminiscent of Jesus' habit of turning the question upon the one who posed it, in essence forcing us to the difficult but ultimately rewarding task of mulling over these questions until we arrive at meanings ourselves, as opposed to being fed a particular piece of doctrine.

Yes, I believe that the bible is not overwhelmingly excited about homosexuality, but it's not overwhelmingly excited about a lot of things. Of more concern to me is how a madly clawing race to champion an official church position on this wrinkles the nose of those who encounter us as we strive to enact the idea of God's kingdom.

Last summer, I served as an intern at a notoriously conservative baptist church, having some foolish notion that armed with idealism and a worn copy of A Generous Orthodoxy, I could bring balance to the force. I sat in the morning devotional as my friend group suggested that perhaps instead of invading the local mailboxes with stationary emblazoned with The Canadian Defense of Marriage Organization, we should enter a float into the Vancouver Gay Pride Parade.

A float with a wooden cross, and half a dozen of us with signs labelled "We're sorry".

The flurry of discussion that followed was preoccupied with the idea of us sabotaging christendom by appearing to advocate homosexual behavior, as opposed to recognizing the incredible healing our simple act of humility could accomplish.

Yes, truth must be proclaimed, but the truth must be tempered with humility and the recognition that it's never a question of 'Us vs. Them', but instead is a question of 'Humankind vs. God'.

The Bible is extremely clear on the issue of homosexuality. It is a sin, an abomination toward God. It sounds to me like this pastor is afraid to take a stand on this very important issue. God can save a homosexual just like he can save anybody else. But there is no need to sugar coat sin, God doesnt.

Wow. What a powder keg of thoughts. Like Brian I struggle with the way the issue is understood within the church today. I agree more listening, less pontificating and much more respectful dialog is in order. The struggle in my heart is not over the truth about the sin but about how we as a people of faith respond and offer redemption and freedom to those trapped by the deceitfulness of sexual sins. How can we who stand clear on the Bible offer hope?

This article is triggers in me much more than a conversation about the rightfulness of homosexuality, it opens dialog about the rightfulness of our response as Christians and pastors. From the extreme ashes of gay pride marches that are militant assaults on Biblical values to the “god hates fags” extreme must come an answer to the questions we have about homosexuality. The simple answer is what the bible says about the sin, the more difficult answer is how I can let the redeemers love flow through me in such a way that is both true and gracious.

I went to a conservative, evangelical Bible College. One of the students was discovered as gay, not by anything that happened at the school, and the college kicked him out. The administration told every one of us never to have contact with him again and made sure we knew that his sin was an abomination. I agree wholeheartedly that the sin is an abomination but something didn’t set well with me. That was going on 30 years ago. No one wanted to take time to understand what happened in his life that triggered such a lifestyle? Didn’t anyone want to offer help? Didn’t anyone want to bring the truth in loving kindness so as to offer a way out of a lifestyle destined for loneliness, hurt and separation from a creator who went to the cross to forgive that very sin? The answer was “No” and the reason was the “Bible Says this one is an abomination.”

I believe homosexuality is a sin, not a genetic but a societal sin. I also believe unless we can have a careful, biblical, and prayerful and Holy Spirit driven dialog we too will be in sin.

One final thought, based upon John 8 and the woman “caught in the act” I sure wish Jesus had come out with a biblical response and condemned adultery. He should have announced its evil and destructive impact upon families, marriages and society. I wish he had let everyone know that this sin is heinous and an abomination. I really do because that would have been much easier for me as a model of how to respond to these sexually charged sins. Instead he offered redemption in the face of the condemnation of others. He commanded a life of change on the heals of grace and truth. Jesus response was much more difficult than wagging my finger, proclaiming the Bible says. But there was a group there that day doing that wasn’t there? To offer God’s redemption apart from God’s truth is impossible, but is it possible we have offered God’s truth without redemption in some of these issues?

Sorry, but the article flip flopped. How many more books and scholarly articles need to be written on the subject for the author to come to a clear decision on the morality of homosexuality? When there are so many books and articles on the ethics of tolerance, why has an elder, a shepherd of God's children, not found clear guiding principles to help him deal with those he (maybe) disagrees with. Furthermore, the fact that homosexuality, as opposed to co-habitation, or religious pluralism is the focus of the debate, shows clear homophobic tendencies in the author. It's a free country. Some people aren't going to like you for your opinions. Get over it.
And how can I go about desinating myself as part of a new generation of evangelical leaders? Do I have to join a club? What are the subscription rates? Do I get a badge and T-shirt?

BTW Richard...either did you!
Remember the Samaritan Woman at the well? I am sure that Jesus did not tell her to straighten out her sexual lifestyle. I guess he just talked about something regarding never having to thirst again. Man he even spent a few days in that town! I wonder where he slept? This Jesus guy is just too improper and he wouldn’t fit into our definition of North American church. May be church is having to get cleaned up before being accepted into community! That’s safe…and we all like a GOD who is safe!

Response: Actually Jesus did implicitly condemn her sexual activities. Why did he raise the subject otherwise? More to the point, he was making her private life his business. And he didn't agonise over the whole tolerance thing.

Comment:It's interesting that the majority of comments vilify Brian simply for not outright condemning homosexuality and bringing the whole hellfire and damnation speech down on his congregants.

Response: Nope, I'd just like Brian to acknowledge that throughout history and the Church worldwide, homosexuality has been considered wrong. I'd like him to admit that among evangelicals he is in a tiny minority in even wanting a moratorium, and stop pretending that he is part of some larger movement - worldwide his (lack of) point of view wouldn't even get a hearing. I'd like him to admit that of you haven't got anything to say on a subject, best not to write a column about it.
I don't, the majority of evangelicals don't want a return to old cliches. We just don't want new cliches about how nice and tolerant we evangeliclas are underneath. Thats way the majority of respondents are annoyed.

So we are to be loving and kind, hmm... check Matt. 3:7. Spoken to religious hypocrites. That is what we become if we do not identify the gross sin of Homosexuality. As ministers of the gospel, all true members of The Body Of Christ must confront sin. We should welcome the seeker/sinner, but point out their sin. I think the proper response would have been, Homosexuality is a sin.... All sexual relationships outside of a Man/Woman marriage is sin.....Now tell me how we can minister to you? This is tough but immediate honesty is the best way to convey Gods Truth.

I thought this article was really good. I don't know if I agree with it in it's entirety but what resonated for me was love and an obvious desire to love as Jesus loves. I guess I'm tired of hearing a bunch of opinions on this subject from people, it may seem like this guy is being wishy washy and not wanting to take a stand, but I think we're missing the point of the article, yes, it's clear that homosexuality is a sin, the bible says so, what is not so clear is how we deal with it in this liberal culture. I think as a church we really need to seek God on that subject, if it's through a 5 year moratorium or what, i don't know, but I need answers from the Lord, not from people. We can't hide from the fact that this is the culture we're living in, and i'm not sure about the ages of everyone who's responded to this article, but i'd wager a guess that you're from a generation which did not have "Will and Grace" and "Brokeback Mountain" even on your radar screens. I'm so tired of people saying love the sinner, hate the sin, what does that mean exactly? I need something more concrete than that. When I tell my gay friends that my church believes homosexuality is a sin and that gays should not be allowed to get married, they don't feel very loved, they just don't. And many of the gay people I know feel like there's no way they could come to church and feel safe and loved. I'm from a generation where it is extremely widely accepted as gospel that homosexuality is a choice. My career (i'm a new lawyer) involves upholding the Charter (Canada) which states that people cannot be discriminated against on grounds of sexual orientation. I guess i'm really frustrated. I know what I believe, and I believe the bible, yet I don't know how to love as Jesus loved. My best friend of 7 years is gay and Muslem (which is definitely against gays), and i've seen him struggle from those early days where he wasn't out even to me, to where he decided to come out even though he believed that he was going to hell and God hated him (his words) to now, where he feels like he didn't have a choice and this is just who he is. I've seen him and i've cried with him and i've not known what to say. I would like to see the church take a dedicated stand in praying about this issue, just praying and seeking the Lord and laying down all our opinions and feelings and just saying Lord, we know what you've said in the bible and we know you are love and your heart is for all people to know you, show us how, we repent of our attitudes and judgments and anything that didn't come from you and we ask you for your heart and your eyes in this matter.

I think it is important to point out the weakness of the worldview underlying McLaren's suggestion of a "non-position" in regard to homosexuality. Since one of the highest virtues of the postmodern worldview is to be a defender of the oppressed, McLaren is running into a problem with his position on homosexuality because to call it sin would look like oppressing a people group. Furthermore, this is the same problem we see in other writings from McLaren where is takes a non-position on a potentially oppresive issue (i.e. universalism).
I feel for McLaren because he is in a struggle that any of us face when challenged with filtering our worldview through Scripture. I would recommend he read William Webb's compassionate but honest, "Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals" which has already done what he is suggesting through a moratorium.

I agree that we should not jump on gay peoples backs about sin as soon as they visit a church-give them a chance to discover the love of God, let the holy spirit convict them of thier sin-and he will! we are to include all people that is our mandate to love and care for all. there will come a time to talk about thier sin,its not our pointing out of thier sin that will transform them, lets not be like the prodical sons older brother,have wisdom, everyone craves acceptance! and we are to accept sinners just the way Christ did. we need to provide a warm loving incubator so God can send his precious broken hurting little ones to,so they may know him and what is to belong to God-afterall he called us while we were still siners

Guess what, folks? Nobody cares anymore what churchpeople think of us.

Gay people are already way past this argument, and so are our friends and families. We're not an abstract "issue" to be debated and discussed, you know, and we're tired of people talking about us as if we're not even in the room. At this point, I assure you that most gay people feel that the Church is perfectly ridiculous, and can go on with its ridiculous head in the sand forever. It's not even remotely interesting anymore.

At some point, someday, folks will get over the idea of "the homosexual question," and start recognizing that there are people involved, with feelings and lives and friends. Stop talking about us, and start listening to us, for a change.

(BTW, the Bible does not state anywhere that "homosexuality is a sin." It doesn't condemn lesbianism, for instance; lesbianism isn't against Jewish law, you know. (Before you get going on Romans I, the early view of that passage - one held by St. Augustine and others - was that that passage referred to sex between women and men.)

So really: get off your high horses about this topic and listen, for a change. The "hatred" you claim God has for gay people is coming from with you, and from noplace else.)

I can see that much ink has been spilled on this page, and after doing a quick text search, I can see that no one has mentioned one excellent resource for further research and education. This is the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. www.narth.com This organization takes positions different from the oft publicly and professionally trusted (and perhaps mistrusted) American Psychological and American Psychiatric Associations regarding the physical and mental health of homosexual lifestyles.

A Reader, I don't have any homosexual friends, and that probably says a lot about me. I agree that many hetero Christians should be wary of speaking in generalisations about homosexuals, just as much as many of us are uncomfortable about being lumped together with the label 'Christian' in certain contexts.

I have a gay colleague with whom I think I connect fairly well on a professional level, and hopefully afford him no more (patronising) and no less (prejudiced) respect than my other colleagues.

The danger of generalising was highlighted recently when he asked not to have to share a room while on a conference (where sharing was required) because he is gay. His rationale is that he would be uncomfortable sharing with a gay who might be more promiscuous than he, or with a 'straight' who might be uncomfortable/judgemental. The administrator in my otherwise progressive company asked him for a medical note...!

The moral of the story is that although we may have to reach a reasoned and loving conclusion to the overall question of homosexuality in the Church, we also need to recognise that homosexuals are individuals first and foremost, just like you and me, and it is as offensive to speak about 'them' as a group as it is to speak of blacks as a group if discussing how to integrate 'them' into a homogenous 'white' church fellowship.

My question is: What is your churches stand on fat overweight people? Obviously they practice their "sin" on a daily basis. So what is your stand?
Funny isn't it that the church is so quick to condemn homosexuality but says nothing of the fried chicken eating obese fat pastor!

Peace
Geo

It seems to me that Jesus defined lustful looks at women by men as sinful; logically, Jesus would also have defined lustful looks at men by men (and at women by women) as sinful too.

How many of heterosexual men in the churches can claim freedom from the urge of lust? Not too many, I would think. Luckily, heterosexuals have ways to channel that lust (e.g., marriage, which effectively destroys lust...(just kidding :-)

Why deny homosexuals the opportunity to channel and discipline their lusts, in the form of committed relationships acknowledged by the church?

There are many things to disagree with Mr. McLaren but I think the thing I would like to point out that Brian puts being "pastoral" in direct opposition to be "honest and right". Logically this seems to entail that he believes that when Jesus was being "pastoral" in his answers to tough questions that he wasn't being "honest or right". Logically, this further indicates that Mr. McLaren is saying Jesus was being the opposite of honest (lying) and the oppposite of right (wrong). Now I hope and would guess that Mr. McLaren doesn't believe Jesus was a liar who was wrong on tough moral issues. Since I believe that Mr. McLaren is not heretic who would say that Jesus was a sinner it simply shows his view of being "pastoral" instead of being "honest" is radically inconsistent and irrational given the rest of his beliefs about Jesus. I am trying to point out that by avoiding the tough question and then doing so in the name of Jesus he is in fact doing the opposite of what the Bible tells us in Romans 3:4 when it says let God be true and every man be found a liar. If being "pastoral" means you can't be honest or right then maybe it is time for a new profession.

In this particular case it doesn't seem as though the real question was what does the church think about homosexuality. Rather the real issue is if homosexuals will be welcome to attend a wedding. These are two entirely different issues unless one is only truly welcome at a wedding if their lifestyle is not only tolerated but also enthusiastically endorsed. If that were the case then the church would need to change its position on sin in general and not the particular sin of homosexuality.

Finally, here are some examples of Jesus being "pastoral" when faced with tough questions/issues.

John 10:24-26
John 6:60-71 (Notice here that much like a sweaty fundamentalist He calls someone a devil and loses many disciples because of his pastoral method)
John 8:44-45 (Now he is calling people son's of the devil and not only is it not gender neutral but in verse 45 he speaks about (gasp) truth!)
Rev. 22:12-15
Matt 19:16-25 (I know here Jesus is picking on the rich and that is ok, but it is still a tough, honest "pastoral" moment)
Matt 12:33-39

In an attempt to ameliorate the judgmentalism of the religious right and at the same time attempting to himself appear non-judgmental to the religious left, coupled with the perfectly silly suggestion of a moratorium (a cowardly delaying tactic) tactic), Mr. McLaren succeeds only in avoiding an explanation of his own deeply held convictions on a subject so fraught with complexity and so central to person's of faith bearing witness to the love of Christ in current culture. The context in which Mr. McLaren discusses this subject - that pastors need to respond pastorally -- is patently obvious and so superfluous mention -as to be another indication that Mr. McLaren was not about to speak to the heart of the matter. I would much more appreciate reading articles in your magazine which explore the issues of Christian faith and life and human sexuality in response to how these issues are brought before us by the film, "Brokeback Mountain." Please invite Mr. McLaren, or some someone else, to share his/her/their theological reflections on the subject of human love and sexuality as displayed in "Brokeback Mountain." Thank you.

There also isnt anywhere in the Bible, that people have to raise their hands, say a simple, prayer, then you will be saved. But the modern church as a whole sure preaches that. Yes, the Bible seems to be clear homosexuality is a sin, but it's also clear that we arent fluent in greek, hebrew, etc and our translation of the Bible is way different than what was first written. The English language is too simple to fully translate the words correctly. Just like the word love, its one word in the english, but three distinctly different words in the Bible. I say stop putting all our eggs into the anti-abortion/anti-gay basket and start loving people and leading a life as Jesus did. Over and over in the Bible Jesus is asked to confront people about "their sins" yet he never truly does...he always accepts them and simply says follow me...am I "pro-gay" for saying this? I'm sure some will think so, but I am not for sin of any kind. I just dont think Christians should spend their life debating it, arguing over it, and telling the world that if they are gay they are going to burn. Jesus sure didnt take that approach, nor should we.

Thank you Brian for letting a lot of light and good common sense as well as pastoral sensitivity on this subject. I once heard someone say, "If the Church talked as much about poverty as sex, then we might begin to help the developing world and the many others millions of people who live in horrendous conditions." Let's ahve a moratorium on the subject for a while.

Mclaren, at a christian gay forum Last year suggested a proposal on how we can “solve” the homosexuality issue within Christianity: No one is allowed to talk about it unless they have enough points:

10 if you have considered and studied the relevant biblical passages
10 if you have actually read the six passages aboud homosexuality in the bible
20 if you have read other passages that might affect the way you read those six passages
5 if you have read one or more books that reinforce the position you already hold
25 if you have read one or more books arguing the opposite position
10 if you have spent three hours reading websites showing a variety of views
50 for every friend you have who’s been through an ex-gay ministry
50 for every friend who’s been through an ex-gay ministry that didn’t work
50 for every friend who’s gay and in a long-term committed relationship
50 for every friend who’s gay and not in a committed relationship
50 for every parent you’ve listened to whose child is gay
When you have 3,000 points, you can speak on the issue.

At that rate even Mclaren would take at least five years to get the points - is that why he propposes 5 year moritorium?

The answer must take into account God's coming, righteous judgment which we hope our ministry in Jesus’ name saves people from. The following two extremes guide me when I have been given the opportunity to minister to the active homosexual person.

Should we say nothing then on judgment day we will stand accused of not sharing the loving truth that might have saved the sinner, even the active homosexual.

Should what we say be condemning, then on judgment day we will stand accused of being offensive and concealing the loving truth of Christ from the sinner, even the active homosexual.

Hi,

there's a guy helping 'young' Christian guys who are struggling with homosexuality and related issues through a ministry called Roundabout www.adrianrowse.com.au It's worth a look, and supportive feedback.

Pastorally, concerning "the question behind the question", yeah, I can agree with McLaren. However, McLaren tips his hand and shows his theological ambiguity on the subject of homosexuality (Scripture is clear that homosexuality is a sin) and hides behind this, utilizing his "pastoral care" as the cover.

A pastor who can hold on to the truth unwaveringly knows how to express the truth with pastoral care. In McLaren's case, he doesn't even know the truth about what Scripture teaches about homosexuality (likely due to his postmodern presuppositions). How can he even effectively pastor anyone on this subject? At best, he propagates more ambiguity to those who come under his care.

Sadly, those in the emergent church who still hold to absolute truth (yes, even God's Law) are guilty by association because of McLaren's disgraceful understanding of Scripture. (His view on hell and punishment is rather disgusting since it diminishes the Cross itself.)

FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY THAT WHATEVER I SAY HERE IS TOTALLY OUT OF LOVE. THAT BEING TRUE I MUST SAY THAT AS A CHRISTIAN I WANTED TO LEARN EVERYTHING I COULD ABOUT JESUS AND HIS TEACHINGS AND AM STILL LEARNING. I DIDN'T WANT JUST MAN'S OPINION I WANTED TO STUDY THE WORD MYSELF AND SEE WHAT OUR LORD WAS SAYING ABOUT THE WAY TO GET TO HEAVEN. WHAT I DID WAS GET A CONCORDANCE AND LOOK UP EVERY TOPIC I COULD FIND AND SEE WHAT THE LORD SAID ABOUT IT. SOME THINGS I THOUGHT WERE PRETTY CLEAR , SOME THINGS I THOUGHT I NEEDED MORE STUDY AND OF COURSE I ALWAYS ASK GOD FOR WISDOM AND TO EXCEPT HIS WORD AS AUTHORITY. OUR WORLD IS NOT SO DIFFERENT AS LONG AGO I FIND.GOD SHOWS THEM THE WAY TO CLEAN UP THEIR ACTS AND LO AND BEHOLD A FEW WEEKS LATER THEY ARE BACK TO DOING THEIR OWN THING! SOUNDS SO FAMILIAR. THERE ARE GOING TO BE THOSE WHO TRULY WANT TO CHANGE AND DO AS GOD SAYS AND THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO DO THINGS THEIR WAY. I WANT TO DO WHAT GOD SAYS. IT'S A CHOICE WE MAKE. NO ONE IS FORCED. I LOVE BEING A CHRISTIAN AND HAVING CHRISTIAN VALUES. IT'S A EVERYDAY STRUGGLE BUT IN THE LONG RUN IT WILL BE SO WORTH IT WHEN ONE DAY I WILL BE ABLE TO BE WITH MY LOVED ONES WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE ME. WHEN GOD SAYS NO HE MEANS NO. WHEN WE MAKE WRONG CHOICES WE WILL ANSWER TO HIM. AS FAR AS THIS SUBJECT OF HOMOSEXUALS ARE CONCERNED I FIND THE LORD SAYING A BIG NO TO IT.I JUST WOULDN'T WANT TO TAKE THE CHANCE OF LOSING MY SALVATION .ANYWAY, AS I STATED THIS IS ALL IN LOVE AND I PRAY YOU WILL ALL STUDY FOR YOURSEVES AND SEE WHAT GOD WANTS AND NOT WHAT WE WANT. IN CHRISTIAN LOVE, BARBARA