Sounds reasonable... what are stages 5 & 6?

Everyone needs to out grow the institutional form of church life. Even Pastors should. It's a very crippled, white washed form. Just me saying that is so deeply irritating to many saints because they think this form is THE FORM, inspired by God. (Like some feel the KJV is.) They are completely unwilling to look at the Word to see key elements of their system that are a 90% denial of what the Word specifically asks for. I have tried to with very close friends of mine from my years in institutional church. They will not even start. This very reality of unwillingness to examine in two-way, mutual relationship shows how shallow the bond of believers is in the institutional form. I have found it to be much deeper outside the “ic” form. The QUALITY of relationships is one of the most important things to God about His church, but a willingness to examine the form with the Word is not tolerated. God’s grace is powerful enough to work in spite of it and to change it in His time. I grieve for the huge loss of eternal rewards from God’s people for building with wood, hay and stubble.

Uh huh.

I knew that this article would bring the same tired blasts at the church. You should get out more, bubba. There are thousands of churches all over where people have deep and long-lasting relationships with God and each other despite what you might see as weaknesses. Does everyone? No. Everyone doesn't exist except in the minds of people casting stones at the church.

Don't worry about, or grieve for those in the IC, we'll be just fine when rewards are passed out.

BTT - so this article creates a class of victims in people who should be serving and not requiring others to help them grow? How very American.

As someone who can relate to this, I'd like to share my developing opinion.

First, in response to the above post, attacking the "church" is not the answer. In this case, the "church" is not the problem, nor is it the answer.

As a Christian, we are called to be a part of the Church, and to have fellowship with other believers. One of the most effective ways of accomplishing this is through our local churches.

However, to expect to be constantly fed and completely satisfied from the leadership/programs of our local churches is perhaps immature. There will most likely come a time in the life of any long-term or deeply devoted and knowledgable Christ-follwer where they will find themselves learning almost nothing new at their church. They will perhaps even find that they have deep-seated spiritual needs that are not being met. They may find themselves in the leadership positions themselves, but that is not going to make any difference.

At some point, in my view, a mature Christian needs to begin to take responsibility for his own relationship to Christ. This is an exciting time of self-discovery and spiritual growth. Everyone's journey (how I am beginning to hate that word, lol) will be unique. Other Christians will be unlikely to be able to help you in this. It is between you and God, as it was always meant to be. All this may sound trite, but it will be very difficult and will take alot of time, energy, and initiative on the part of the believer. I think there are many pastors who have never entered into these areas, incidentally.

This is NOT a reason to leave the local church. Rather, it is a time to have a healthy understanding of what the local church is capable of and good at, and what it is not.

One other thing: we live in a very unusual time and place. We have been culturally conditioned to constantly look outside ourselves to get our needs met, and we've also internalized the notion that "if this church isn't meeting my needs, another church across town will, if I can just find the right one." Even the luxury of going to all these different churches is a rather recent development in church history, and somewhat unique to this country. I don't wish to defend poor churches, but I do wish to encourage self-examination on the part of Christians who find themselves experiencing the thoughts presented in the editorial.

Even articulating views on something of this nature is difficult, but I pray I have been clear.

The book that really needs to be discussed here is "A Churchless Faith" (Alan Jamieson) which is similar to what Dave Terpstra discusses but Jamieson specifically discusses faith development in the context of leaving the church. What Terpstra says about people outgrowing churches is exactly what Jamieson's research indicates. The insituational church is typically not a place where believers are able to ask serious questions about their faith (Jamieson calls these individuals "Reflective Exiles"). As a result many leave and never return. Many also find viable alternatives for growing in their faith within communities outside of the insituational church.

This is an interesting new approach to an issue so many have been trying desperately to define. My only hesitation in full fledged endorsement of the concept is that some people will inevitably get caught in the trap of comparison-making that comes with anything numbered progressively. Mostly, I'm concerned that folks happily in stages 1, 2, and 3 might feel belittled by such a comparison, even if there were no such intentions.

So a further question would be how can we minister to those in stage 4 (including myself) without alienating the others who may very well be exactly where God wants them to be?

This is a fascinating topic, but one with limited discussion potential, I think.

The reason is that so few people have any idea that the "higher" levels of spiritual growth even exist, much less get to them. Sadly, the teaching in the typical church stops at a fairly low point (level 3 at best) and people then get on a spiritual treadmill. They are continually in motion and evidence activity, but make no progress. They go nowhere.

Part of the problem is that the members of a church cannot grow past the level of their leaders, unless they pursue growth through other sources.

While I hardly qualify as "spiritually mature," this post describes almost exactly what I am going through. I have attended evangelical churches for over 20 years since my "conversion" experience. But I am increasingly disillusioned with church and it's focus on attendance, buildings and cash.

It seems that many very good people in my church are not really interested in knowing the biblical Jesus, but only the republican Jesus. My theology is going through extensive revisioning and I find myself increasingly attracted to Catholic reconcilliation. And that in itself disqualifies me from any position of leadership in most evangelical churches.

So, while this post asks a VERY pertinent question, what I want are thoughts on direction. Is it okay to settle for different? Is it okay to check out of the local church? What do we do about the wall?

I'm curious about the book's premise. It makes sense if you view "the church" as a building, a leadership structure, a set of by-laws, a denomination, or a doctrinal creed. The premise loses me, though, if you view "the church" as God's community of the redeemed. Periods of internal reflection are necessary in many Christians' lives, at many steps along the journey. But Scripture points to our ultimate destination as eternal communion with God, New Jerusalem, where "the dwelling of God is with men" (Rev. 21:3). The ekklesia is (or should be) a foretaste of that future. Personally, I can't think of any "spiritual giants" of the church's past who weren't involved in a community of one kind or another. If spiritually mature people are indeed leaving the church's formal structures (and I'm sure some are), I would argue that it remains the church's problem. The solution is not adding more classes, volunteer opportunities, or worship styles, but rather examining whether the church is truly focused on its mission to lead people to reconciliation and deeper communion with God and with each other.

Wow, that sure was cryptic. I certainly could use a clearer explanation of stage four, and a clearer explanation of why local churches don't usually meet the needs of those in that stage. Specifics, please. What, for instance, do you (or Hagberg and Guelich) mean by "The Wall?"

I certainly have felt this way before. I believe that Barna is wrong though. The local church body is crucial in God working in the world today. God intends that we share life with one another. When I hit a wall and get discouraged, it is when I am in a me and God mentality. When I hit a wall and find ways to continue to progresss, I find it is a me, God, and the people God are using in my life deal. I think the look inward has to be forced to once again look outward. To see the pilgrims around you who are travelling the same road. To quit trying to find a church who does everything right, but find a church that is Biblically based and make it a little better.

I won't make any claims for myself as to "spiritual maturity," but after growing up in church all my life--really churches: Baptist, Pentecostal/charismatic, then PCA Presbyterian--I felt like something was missing as to a central emphasis and the way we as the church lived out life together.

I feel like I discovered what was lacking--not to sound cliche, but an emphasis on the centrality of Jesus Christ in all things--and the way this would look in practice: being the Body of Christ in deference to one another, with each member taking full responsibility for the direction and gatherings of the church.

In short, I discovered house churches. Sure, not all of them are alike, and yes, they can be volatile, but since the popular introduction of the internet just over a decade ago, people who are willing to gather with one another outside of hierarchical, rigidly institutional lines have been on the increase.

Our church is among a significantly smaller subset of house church in that we live in community with one another, in a neighborhood on the edge of Atlanta. We also have a church planter who periodically visits us (anywhere from a few times a year to every other year) to help gauge our health in both practical body life and weightier spiritual matters. We are networked with about 25 other such house church communities around the world, and we try to be good neighbors to those around us.

Now, are "we" the trend of What Is To Come? I doubt it, not fully. I don't think there will ever be one monolithic form of church--there never has been. But there are a growing number of us, and if you feel so inclined to this path, welcome.

While I can't comment on these books specificially, I too have some gripes with the institutional church. It can be pretty ugly sometimes. I can be too.

I am reminded of a Derek Webb song from She Must and Shall Go Free. In the song, God is speaking to Christians about His church.

I haven’t come for only you,
but for my people to pursue.
You cannot care for me with no regard for her.
If you love me, you will love the church.

There is none that can replace her,
though there are many who will try.
And though some may be her bridesmaids,
they can never be my bride.

Other songs on the album present incredibly harsh critiques of the church, but Derek Webb chooses to let this thought be the final track. I have to admire his determined optimism.

The church has problems. But so do I.

To paraphrase Dorsey Marshall from "Not My Will"
We can throw out the bathwater, but let's try to keep the baby.

If a community exists to nurture itself, it's cries for commitment are brittle and miscued.

If a community exists to nurture the world around it, and tend to itself, it's cries for commitment ring true to their need for shared support and mutual encouragement.

Most classic churches spend 90% of their energies "nurturing" and modeling outward vision that ultimately seeks to grow the local church, often for misguided reasons – enter the glorification of larger communities vs. smaller ones.

As a pastor and leader in various local roles, and in a national movement for about 20 years, I've watched us "tweak" our church systems to paint a new picture for folks who join us.

When the church system itself is on the chopping block, our hearts are laid bare. A new generation seems to be voting with their feet. The object is not to retain them. It's to listen to their pain and frustration, even anger, and learn a few things from the communal fire.

It is interesting to here Christians talk about spititual maturity in the western world. Maturity is a term that we like to throw around. It makes us feel good...I am so sick and tired of people who talk about being spiritually mature, especially those who want to leave one church for another and have not discipled one person in their whole life time.

Regarding service being the third level of Christianity, and their are three more mysterious levels...hmmm...last time I checked, the bible said that we are to serve the world and the church. I think it says something about being the greatest if you serve. Unfortunately, we have a ton of people who are tired of serving, so they are looking within for answers. They are individualistic and want church according to them. Their service makes them feel empty, maybe that is a good thing.

I am not saying every church is like this, I am just implying that we need seek to love, understand and serve those around us. This is to happen in every dimension in our lives. The problem is, we are too rich to want to serve. We have too many golf courses and too many things to waste our money on to justify our "enjoying life." Serving is boring, no flash and no dash. That is the core of the issue. Serving just isn't good enough for us anymore.

We lack a demonstration of the Spirits power. Our faith cannot rest on men’s wisdom. We must be doers, empowered. I have hit a wall and as I cry out I feel God saying, “My strength shows up best in your weakness.” Our desperate prayers are needed in this nation.

Jesus said:

“Father help them be one even as We are one”

We are on the same team, the good, the bad and the ugly. One church, one purpose, one hope, Jesus. Lets help one another!

I think this entire discussion misses the whole point of the church as an insititution. Those who leave the church out of frustration miss a key point: Jesus Christ loves His bride. If we can't love what Christ loves, are we mature? Are we being "transformed from one degree of glory to another"? Perhaps the problem is that we think this way: Biblical and doctrinal knowledge (without 'putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit')=Spiritual maturity; or the other side of the coin: good behavior (minus "studying to show ourselves approved")= Spiritually mature. So if we are annoyed by the doctrinal shallowness or the hypocrisy in the church, and we abandon it rather than seek to guard and protect it, what does that say about us? Remember, Christ said in Ephesians 5 that He washes the church by "water and the word." Unless we follow Christ in obedience and teach that word, we are sinning. (This is not to say God needs us to do the work, but that we must still evaluate our hearts and align our loves and affections with the loves and affections of Christ.)

First, I must say that this is a well writen article.

Second, the big idea of this thought really brings the whole idea of church and spirituality together. I hope that this helps to clarify in some people's minds why they must co-exist.

Third, I am tired.

Grace and Peace,
-Jer

Thanks for the article and the reference to the book. I'll check it out.

There is a tendency for satisfied church-people to pooh-pooh the observations you've made (such as in the second comment above and elsewhere).

"There are thousands of churches where... deep and long-lasting relationships" with the body of Christ are central. Thousands? Really? I'd love a list becuase the churches I have undoubtedly had the misfortune to experience are not like that. The institutional church (which, incidentally was never intended to be an institution at all) has lost the plot. Barna is right about that much though I haven't read his book... maybe he's gone too far toward an individualistic faith.

It's time for the church to face facts instead of disparaging the ever growing cloud of witnesses that is looking toward a dimly visible horizon. It's time for the church (the community, the body, the people of God) to die to its institutional self. And if we won't (which is more likely, I'm afraid) then it's time for those of us afflicted with a holy dissatisfaction to come out.

Thanks for the post because it is exactly where I am at. For some time now I have been wrestling with the limitations of my local church and pastoral staff to "stretch" me spiritually. And so the question as to "What to do about it?" or naturally raised by those who are honestly seeking answers. Quite frankly, I think the vast majority of people sitting in the pew today in most of our "traditional" or established churches who reached "stage 3" but because there seems to be so little instructing from leadership on what I would call "life long learning" and "personal devotion" they have settled for the "road most traveled". I guess the best way I know how to explain it, although I haven't reached that time personally, is having a "mid-life crisis of faith". That is not saying I am doubting my Christian experience - nothing of the sort, but I am questioning some of the teachings and tenents of my particular heritage, and especially how the Christian life and experienced should be lived out. I think that it important for people to understand that life is all about change and adapting. My son is entering puberty and I am feeling the full effects of what that means. As his father, it is my utmost desire to train him up in the faith so that he will not depart from it. This, fortanately (or unfortunaely depending upon your understanding), requires me to reaccess and reafirm what I believe and how best to convey those things to him. I want him to be able to avoid some of the pitfalls and shortcomings that I had while giving him the space to develop a relationship with God of his own.

And I don't believe that Dave was advocating people leaving church at all. I think he was trying to explain WHY they were leaving. I COMPLETELY understand. Thanks for helping me "diagnose" the struggle I have been facing. They say that knowing WHAT the problem is is half the solution.

good stuff, something we should be paying attention to.

I don't think we're miles off course in our dialogue as some say; I think human beings reinvent themselves continually according to the waves of culture around them.

Change always brings tension. If we view the tension and the fray of dialogue as a gift that exposes the heart and directs us to the source of discomfort, we're more on course than ever.

Pain is a gift, as it directs to the part of the body that needs attention, correction and care. When shouts and cries are heard because someone is in pain, it brings the rest of us to their aid.

The dialogue, silly and tiring as it may seem to us, is the fruit of confidence – that we can ask hard questions and be free to be wrong as well as right. In attempting the conversation, we're coming alive.

As someone whose church is probably one of those that you might say “really” preaches the word I see the other side of the complaining. I hear things like “I can not bring my unbelieving friends to this church. The sermon would be over their head.” or “Spending a year preaching through one book of the Bible is too much detail.” We really do need to own our growth eventually and not expect so much of our leaders. When you are preaching to the masses there is no way to speak to everyone’s needs. Part of the point of growth is to realize this and stick it out with each other. Amen to quoting “The Church” by Derek Webb. We married into this family, or were adopted into it, and though it is dysfunctional, I love it.
I also love this blog. Great discussion.

What I see described here are the stages of any human organization. When we begin a project, business, nation or church, we have the enthusiasm and excitement of newness, and challenge of problem solving. As methods develop into success over time, they turn into habits. Habits lead to platitudes and dogma rather than innovation. We become so protective of our way of doing things that we seek ways to protect ourselves from innovation or innovators. Sometimes ugly ways. It is a shame that when we reach the habit stage of our life curve we even protect ourselves from God.
From the very beginning of human history, God has asked us to trust that His methods are correct. Pride, jealousy, fear, and I'm afraid habit have prodded us to place God in a box where we refuse to let Him exceed our expectations.
Faith is the act of trusting things to happen in the unknown of the future, based on a confidence that is learned from past experience. When we move our foot from the throttle to brake pedal in our cars we have performed the action because either we have learned personally, or from the experience of others, that that action will produce the desired reduction in speed. Faith in God is no different. We have a record in the scriptures that God is good for His word, and He keeps His promises. The view backwards in our own growth experience and how God has lead us should be 20/20 if we are honest with ourselves. If our faith is growing and in constant practice the "wall" that we run into should be one that either will have a door through which we may pass, or will send us off into another direction like a maze. Better yet, faith allows us to fly over the top of some walls or make them disappear altogether.
Finally, Paul tells us that those who practice faith in Jesus will receive in them the Holy Spirit to lead and convict. I think we should be open to the possibility that if one is a prayerful searcher, their possible change of venue may well be the product of that spiritual leading and conviction.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. It is by constant prayerful exposure to God's Word and by the continual practice of relying on God for His direction of future events, that we become confident enough to remain walking at the ragged edge of the unknown. That is the stage of Christianity in which God wants us all to remain.

We have several overlapping issues on the table. The one I am commenting on is the issue of spiritual maturity. I think that Jesus loves the church, maybe enough to give His life for her. I see much opinion in the comments above but little scripture. Not judging but it does give me pause since the Bible is definitely not silent on the issues we have set on the table.

1 John gives us a glimpse of spiritual maturity in stages. In chapter 2:12-14 John identifies an audience that encompasses three levels of maturity. I write to you children… I write to you young men… I write to you fathers. The progression is that children are getting an understanding of their forgiveness and their position in Christ. Young men have developed skill with the Word and are working at their mission in Christ and Fathers have developed confidence in their friendship with God. My observation is that he is not giving three messages to three groups of people; he is giving one message to three groups of people in various stages of maturity. I believe the message is the overwhelming impact the Love of God has upon us. See the continual instructions about God’s love, us loving as a result of God’s love and the description of God as Love in Chapter 4.

My opinion is that John, the self described disciple that Jesus loved, is communicating to the church that we should love God and each other because that is the only fitting response to the love of God. This is the epitome of maturity. The pathway to maturity is God’s amazing love. Many believers in Christ see God’s love as the starting point but look for and hunger after experiences and insights that empower. What works for me is that I try to never wander from this truth. Jesus loves me. His love changed me completely and continues to change me day after day after all these years.

I recently had a discussion with a believer who has been around faith a long time and thus perceives themselves mature. The discussion centered upon the deep things of God. Their frustration with me was that I did not offer “deep truth” to them. Enough of telling about the love of God, lets get to the meat. This conversation came about over a message about the love of God and the impact of that love upon our lives. My response was, If you can find a deeper truth that the love of God, or a truth that does not become deeper with a better understanding of God’s love, I will teach it.

One illustration and I will be done. My 10 year old son hears me say every day of his life that I love him. His response? “I know” or “thanks” or “I love you too.” As his maturity level changes he does not need me to love him less. What he needs is a deeper understanding of the reality and depth of the love I have for him. He needs to grasp the responsibility of being loved like he is. He needs to become not merely a recipient of that love but a channel of that love. He needs to model the kindness of his dad to others. His depth of understanding this love is most fostered is within his family. As he sees his unconditional acceptance, his training in light of a loving purpose, his conversations fun and serious as a means to connect hearts in deep love, his maturity level will grow and thus his appreciation for his dads love.

This is also true of Christians. Too many people are calling themselves mature but remain disobedient to love like Jesus loved. So they unplug, find a place where maturity can be experienced by an experience or by some nugget of new truth but are not becoming more loving as a person. Just a thought.

I acknowledge the artice simply because I am feeling the same frustration about the lack of focus on the inward journey of the Christian faith in the churches here in America. Of course, I can only speak for my church but now at least I know that I am not the only pilgrim who feels the same. I don't see it as an attack on the church but as something that we should be aware of. That small tugging at our hearts and minds cannot be ignored. I'm glad it's been brought to our attention. Hopefully, at some point in our christian lives, we are going to experience that inward journey. It's a sign of maturation. There's no cause to be afraid or paranoid. We should not be afraid to reexamine what we believe as if afraid of finding some skeletons. Maybe those old beliefs or "formulas" need a little dusting. What makes this journey so exhilarating is that there is no formula. We work it out as we go along. The God we know is the Unknown and the Unknowable. That is the paradox of this faith. We cannot reduce it into three easy steps of having it down pat.

I think community and fellowship is absolutely essential for a believer to continue to grow in their walk with the Lord. Is church in the traditional sense the only way to foster community? I am not so sure that it is. I am not saying it is a good thing that are best and brightest are not attending church, but I think it should serve as a wakeup call to churches everywhere. Instead of worrying about putting on a great show, worry about impacting lives and sharing the good news of the salvation found through Christ. I for one have had enough of the megachurch/minichurch aspiring to be a megachurch era, lets just go back to basics, maybe then church will not seem like such a painful experience for these believers who are not attending.

Wow! I'm not the only one!
I spent about a decade in leadership of a small church plant, before that a year overseas, and have served in many churches and parachurch groups.
Two years ago, after a decade attending the same church week-in and week-out, I felt it was time to move on and have been really discouraged by what I've found.
Yes, the church is about community and relationships, but when I walk into churches, it's like walking into a shopping mall--hundreds of people going about their business with no connection to those outside their little circle.
The mega-church "places-to-be" are geared to those at "level 1". If a person at "level 4" shows up, there is no place for you. I never hear a sermon that I haven't heard before and none that deal with the questions I'm grappling with.
The non-mega-churches have been decimated by losses to the mega-churches. Just the old and feeble are left.

As I have stated on earlier posts to this blog, it humorously amazes me how protective we are - how NON-able to LEARN we are - how UN-teachable we are. Nobody grows by clinging to their pet-peeve issues. A great many of us who now write and post to blogs were, at one point, champions against "the older generation" who were raging war with us over such life-changing issues as "guitars in the worship service" and yet, here we are, unable to move our own mountainous issues.

It doesn't matter what we all SAY about "the church" - and it doesn't matter whether you think George Barna is "negative" or whatever... the REALITY is that most churches in America are NOT REALLY creating DISCIPLES. Yes, SOME are! Of course, SOME ARE... just like SOME men don't view porn... SOME women don't have a problem with overspending and SOME kids don't rebel.

Not to pick on any one church, but I'm going to - only because I happen to think that SOME of what they do is DEAD ON RIGHT! Willow Creek (heard of it?) has a WEEKEND service that is created to attract ANYONE... it is NOT "church" as we know it. It is what some call "entertainment evangelism." Fine. It works for them. They get tens of thousands of people on a weekend. To their credit, they also offer a mid-week "believer" service that is designed for "real" worshipers of Jesus (my words, not theirs.) Now, here is my issue - the GOAL of Willow is to move folks from that weekend event into the mid-week believer service. Willow has been around for over 20 years... Logic tells me that, by now, that mid-week believer service should be HUGE - as in needing to meet at MANY church campuses - if, in fact, Willow has fulfilled their stated goal of transforming all those "seekers" into "believers."

But it isn't that way - the mid-week service continues to be far less in attendance than the weekend services. Why?

Because "fun church" is more desirable.

All this to say - it ain't all that "fun" to be a disciple of Jesus. You get hollared at and stuff! It's MORE "fun" to be part of a jammin' church where the pastor and music director are more like Letterman and Shaffer... in the short term, this is great! However, over time, as we are now seeing, the substance has left the building - and people are beginning to notice - and they are leaving...

And the reason they are leaving is NOT to go find a better show down the street... it's because (drum roll) they are not ENCOUNTERING JESUS where they currently worship.

So, what's the solution?

As corny as it sounds - Just Give Them Jesus!

Well, kinda like they did in Acts 2:42-47... which, by the way, ended with a wonderful blessing from God of adding to their number DAILY those where were being saved...

Talk about "a Church Growth Plan..."

At first I was thrilled to see that someone noticed the quiet exodus of many faithful people from our communities. However, the problem I have with this article is that it attempts to explain the issue by using a method of classifying and slotting people into levels of faith and relationship. This is part of the problem. My experience with those who have left the church (and when I say "those who have left" I mean faithful, thoughtful, passionate people) is that they have left because few congregations offer a way around categorizing their people. For them community has been an experience of dividing singles from marrieds from youth from those who like loud music and those who like hymns. They leave not because they are consumers but because they are treated like consumers. They desire deeply to serve, very deeply but the idea of serving in pre-determined, often closed, categories frustrates them. They ask for a better way. Most who have left in what is called "level 4" (I use that term only for clarity here)want a place without categories and limits (in a healthy sense). Interesting that we immediately seek to target and categorize these folks. Are we now to view them as a new target? sigh.

The developmental stages of spiritual formation fits my experience and training well. Many years ago Mary Cosby, wife of Gordon, the founder of Church of the Savior in Wash, DC, came to teach at College Hill Pres. She taught Journey Inward Journey Outward and it was wonderful.

I was also trained by people who understood inward prayer, meditation, dreams, journals, etc. and I have been immensely blessed.

As a Coach and Counselor I am meeting many people over 50 who have grown up with the Lord but are running on empty. They need a renewal of the Holy Spirit and of a new vision.

Many strong Bible churches do not supply it for they are stuck in developing outwardly with little inward spiritual fire. In fact, their pastors are also burned out, frustrated and tempted by sex or something else that seems "spiritual."

Porn is not the problem. Spiritual inner dryness is the problem.

Pastors seek new churches, successful professionals seek golf, and all leave the old churches that are dead in the water. Rock music and better jokes will not stop the flood of people leaving those churches. Churches that provide Inner Revival will.

The Book of Acts shows a number of ways of doing church: house gatherings, start-ups in schools, gathering in larger congregations at the Temple; so I don't know if the "how" matters as much as we think. But all too often we look down at others who do it differently, when these people are still our brothers and sisters in Christ. I wonder if we ought to have something similar to the great feasts of the Old Testament, when all the Jews gathered together to proclaim their love and need for God and to acknowledge that they were a nation still.

I'm not sure what "stage 4" is supposed to be. Maybe I'm immature. But one book that profoundly changed my idea of the church is Bonhoeffer's "Life Together," and I'm not so hard on the corporate church as I once was. What we need, I think, is to become organized and yet remain an organism. And we simply cannot miss the truth that, though we do church differently, we who confess Christ as Lord are all one Body.

Let me see if I get this right. First stage is following Jesus, the second stage is to absorb content, and the third stage is to be productive, to serve. Then comes the forth stage with the focus on me and my inward journey. OK. Sounds a lot like the journey Jesus took. Right.
Seems possible that if the first, second and third stages lack an internal reality it is no wonder one gets “burnt out” and looking for a fourth stage. To carry the metaphor a little further, fires burn out when they don’t receive enough fuel and oxygen. That seems to be a personal and corporate responsibility.
Yes, churches fail. Many are not loaded with reality. On the other hand people fail when they leave church and think they can get to the “next stage” outside of it. What is the church anyway? Fallen people redeemed together, a building Jesus considers as His body. Church is not a school where one finishes a course and leaves. It is not Sears or Target where one purchases what one wants then leaves. Church is the body He set up to grow people with an inward and outer reality and to grow his Kingdom. The person at the “forth stage” and looking for the church to meet his/her needs their way, like Burger King, may need to go back to stage two. Or maybe the you are the answer stage three, serve and minister in a needy context.
The Bible does not recognize this supposed reality “Our attempts to continue to grow in discipleship and service eventually wear out.” It never speaks of a “wall.” Discipleship is never done, no human is Jesus. Service may change, but never apart from The Church.

Gee, I left a reply here the other day - and I don't yet see it... are we censoring the replies? Just curious...

[Editor's note: no, we don't censor. We select. We don't post every comment we get. Believe me, you wouldn't want to read them all.]

At a point in our journey - maybe it is this "stage 4" - Spiritual Disciplines need to take over. Not just prayer and worship and devotion, but fasting, and discipling others, and simplicity...etc. This is where the real work begins. If we are not afraid to go at italone, Just us and God, instead of having our spirituality give to us by others, we can find growth. Sometimes, other denomenations do this spiritual discipline thing better than our community churches, or mega-buildings. We have a lot to learn from our brothers and sisters in the more traditional church! Your real life with God may happen alone here, but that is no reason to leave the church. It is a place to practice fellowship, also a disipline. I don't think of myself as spiritually mature - I am very young - but maybe it is a good thing to feel unsatisfied. There IS more, even if we will only experience it in glory. Without dissatisfaction, nothing will improve, and there is no motivation to seek the Lord.

Doug,

I was impressed by what you wrote, it showed me a understanding of real spiritual maturity in Christ, you do get (it).

"The Journey Inward" is step 1. This is the recognition of our sinfulness vs. God's Righteousness. It is no wonder that anyone who misses that would be confused, burnt out and unhappy.

If someone is not getting what they're looking for in a specific church then they should move to a church that fits their worship style and meets their depth requirements. I do however, wish someone in the anti megachurch movement would define depth for me. My struggle with this idea of what churches should be teaching is that the person defining what depth is usually has set themselves up as the standard of depth. What is depth? Isn't it people becoming more like Jesus? I'm a Pastor in a Mega church and people are getting saved and their lives are being changed all around me. People are learning to walk with God, marriages are being saved, children's lives are getting better because their parents are finding Christ and on and on. There's no one here smart enough or talented enough to make any of this happen so God must be in Mega Churches too. I challenge everyone reading this to understand that God is bigger than any one of our ideas about He can reach a broken world. I don't understand why we are so quick to criticize each others churches and worship styles especially in public forums. All this does is harm God's work because when we fight each other, it just gives the lost a reason to stay that way. We should be loving and supporting each other because that models Jesus' heart. I know all of us here respect and pray for all the churches in our community. Even those who publicly cricize us!

Some people I talk to seem to think that those of us in mega churches think we have all the answers and everyone else is wrong. The problem with that is, it's simply not true and not one mega church Pastor I know feels that way and I know a bunch of them. The reason we have so many different styles of churches is so we can work together to reach everyone. We do church the way we do it not because it's the only way to do it, but because it's the way God has called us to do it. I pray for all churches because if we're seperated we fail, if we come together we take the world for Christ.

I'll go one further. All of us are sinners so none of us have it completely right. If God's Word is perfect, and I believe it is, then how could any imperfect church get it completely right. God is just amazing and getting His perfect will done through imperfect people. If my contemporary worship style isn't right for a level 4 Christian, then I will help them find a church geared towards where they are and what they're looking for. It's not hard to do because I have a ton of Pastor friends that have awesome churches that are different from ours. We send people back and forth all the time because were on the same team and we love and respect each other for following God where He has called each of us to go.

One last thing; who is better suited to serve and love the level 1 or 2 people than a level 4 person. Maybe those on level 4 need to rethink their roles in God's plan. Just maybe our role isn't to look for a church that will feed us all the time and find a church where there's a bunch of 1's who need to get to 4 and need some help. I think our job is to serve and love those who haven't made it to a level 4. Maybe some aren't making it to 4 because they don't have enough role models who are willing to remember that "it's not about me" and are willing to pour thier lives into others because thier walk has value in teaching. Realizing it's not about me was what got me to some higher level. I'm not sure what level I'm at because I'm unclear as to the qualifications. Hopefully maybe a 2 1/2 or so. I truly think the role of the mature Christian is to serve, not be served. I believe that because we have a bunch of lifelong Christians at our church and I watch them pouring their lives into the many 1's coming through the doors each weekend and it makes my heart feel good. Just a thought from a imperfect pastor.

Level I
I Cor 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

Level II...See Level I

Just a couple of comments: Just like Jesus, we are to "serve rather than be served." I think maybe that's what we do after steps 1-3. I've stayed in churches long past the time that I was being fed because they needed me. I recall telling my daughter and son-in-law a few months ago that I wasn't sure why I needed to go to church any more because I have heard it all and I didn't need to hear it again with a new (and probably false) spin on it. So I'm in a totally different church whose pastors are, in my opinion, dedicated to getting us through step 4 and beyond. I am in the right place. Another thing I learned is that sometimes you stay with a church not because you need them, but because they need you, even if it's just your presence. Staying in a church that you've outgrown may be the ministry God has called you to. I have nothing against the concept of approaching church in a different form if you have "outgrown" the place that you are, but it needs to meet the requirements of meeting regularly, probably weekly, with other believers for the purpose of praising God, studying His Word, fellowship, accountability, sharing communion, and all those other great things. There is an underlying spirit of selfishness and arrogance if you think you are too spiritually mature for the church -- I should know. I do feel for people who live in isolated parts of the country where there are no other options but the one church in town, but that too had it advantages. If that is all there is, then you learn one very important spiritual tool -- getting along with people. At any rate, there are plenty of other options that can supplement church -- like learning the spiritual disciplines and reading the works of the church fathers. No one ever gets too spiritually mature for that.

Obviously, we, like all believers, are each at a different place in our spiritual pilgrimage. As a minister on staff at a local church, I, too, get frustrated that I am "not getting fed" enough here. But whose fault is that, really? Who is responsible for my spiritual growth?

Me. The Holy Spirit deals with me about me. Me and my sin. Me and my relationship with others. Me and my tithing. Me and my personal study. Me and my view of God. While it is no one else's responsibility to "make sure" I grow, the people in my local church do play a large role in my growth. My Systematic Theology professor once said (quoting someone else, I believe), "The beauty of the Church is that our own understanding is enriched by others' experiences."

Great quote. Is it possible for "the church" to effectively feed everyone at every level to the satisfaction of each individual? No. Some are hungry for the word, while others are there because it's Sunday morning. It's what they do on Sunday. There is only so much a church can offer pilgrims. If the church leadership is obedient to what the Spirit of God is leading them to do in that local fellowship, He is free to move unfettered by the "system."

If, however, the Spirit says, "Do this. Go here." and, for financial reasons or complaints from members, we go elsewhere, we are setting ourselves up for failure and are sidestepping blessings. It is obedience, both individually and corporately that will mature believers and win the lost. Our problem is that we have compromised.

On a final note, we have also become guarded, and understandably so. One of the greatest things those who are more mature can do, is share their struggles and failures and how God has restored them or corrected them. This may give hope to the child, as well as warnings. There will be some who will give blank stares or eye rolls, but how many times did Jesus say, "Those who have ears, let them hear."?

Maybe the editors should have titled the post "Exit Stage Left: Why the Spiritually Immature are Leaving the Church"

"Churches, from the mega to the mini, are designed to help people mature in the external areas of service and discipleship, not the internal struggles of identity and meaning."

But a LOT of churches focus their sermons, their small groups, etc., on helping people find meaning in their lives and meeting other "felt needs." That doesn't seem to be the issue here.

If discipleship is viewed as being only external, there's something seriously wrong. Discipleship is internal as much or more than it is external. Here's where church history and the Christian classics can be such a strong source of spiritual growth.

We're also dealing here with a seriously weak ecclesiology. Christianity isn't just about our personal relationship with Christ. Nor is the church just a voluntary local gathering of believers. There are elements of Christian growth that can only be undertaken in the parish. The Eucharist, taken rightly, is as much a means of spiritual growth as reading the Bible or praying.

I heard Richard Rohr say that the evangelical church is really good at doing stages 1-3 whereas the Catholic church is better equipped for stages 4-6. I would agree. He also said we need to learn from each other.

Stage theory helps us understand people DO grow and change and DO need different forms to support them as they grow. It saddens me that people leave the church. As a pastor, I desire to create space for ALL people at ALL stages. If pastors are not willing to consider the possibility that people may need different ways of gathering and worship as they grow, we will continue to say good bye to those in the latter growth stages of their faith.

Wow! This past Sunday a small group was started in my home to further the ardent desire of a small group of people who wanted deeper spiritual growth and did not feel that they would do that in their church. We all are very active in our churches. I for one find it impossible to settle down enough on Sunday's to receive as my duties and adrenaline keep me on the go. I determined rather that continue being exhausted by the fact that I couldn't do that or even being a little ticked about it that I would choose to silently pray for our minister and congregation during this time and find another time to worship and grow. The result is the "house group". We have been nurturing small groups in our church for several years but being agrophobic I never actively participated in one. I have in the past held small groups in my home but this is very different. We are a focused, spiritually mature group who have a history (since childhood) of seeking together. It was one exciting and fulfilling night. We continue on and I'll share this article as it certainly will heighten everyone's awareness that this is a rathr common need. Thank you for the article and the further stimulation of the comments section. Praising God for His grace, mercy and wisdom. Amen

What a mind boggling concept: "Churchless Christianity", if believers are the church, how can you have churchless Christianity? sounds rather too American consumeristic individualism.

All very interesting - it's not what you say sometimes but how you say it - there is a LOT of frustration and anger out there. But if I can add my little bit... Why we leave is often because - forget the stages of faith - the church is utterly off the mark in relation to the Word of God. The methods of church governance, criteria for leadership (serving!!) mandatory giving called tithes, literal Sabbaths, Israel focus and other politically correct distractions, peer-grouped services, rock music, ("yeah but it's CHRISTIAN" is like saying, looking at a CHRISTIAN woman's cleavage is ok) marriage and family dysfunctionalism, last days confusion (where the latest ficticious novel is the path to understanding) ... the list goes on. There is just total confusion from the basics up as far as what the Word really says. The only way I found to continue in my pursuit of Biblical Christianity and to raise and teach my kids this way was to leave the church I had so loved and gather with others who would support and agree with these basic tenets of church community. I grieved when I left and wondered what and how God would use me to serve, but I am so glad I am not subsidizing any "pastor"s up-market building, car, or home anymore. I just encourage anyone to pursue Jesus, chuck out preconceived notions and look again at what the Word REALLY says and believe it.
STEVE

Thank you for a thought provoking article and rich discussion. I suspect many of us who are Boomer Pastors even in our own journey will reflect a deisre to be more contempletive, heathfully introspective and integrative as we get older. Check just about any of the theories of personal, spiritual or vocational development and I think you will see a similar pattern. Even as a pastor I am asking questions that I never asked before. I have a greater appreciation for quietness,a stronger disire to listen rather than inform and fix and a deeper understanding, at least for me, of grace that makes me love my flock in a way a never did when I was trying to make ministry happen as a young preacher.
I hope that I will be able to mentor the next generation of pastors from the wisdom and insights this stage of my life is producing and still bring new and younger believers through earlier and necessary stages of faith.
This biggest mistake we could make, IMO, is to blame the church and abandone her, institutional or otherwise.