I'm confused.

I've always been told that one sin is as bad as another. Is that true or isn't it?

The writer refers to committing "a moral sin." Don't all sins fit that category?

This is such hypocrisy. I'm an overeater. I'm guessing that I have gorged myself far more times than Ted Haggard visited a gay prostitute -- but I can continue in this sin without fear of interference from outsiders. I'm certainly not at risk of losing my church job over it. In fact, many people in my church refer to me as lovable teddy bear, mainly because of the size my sinful addiction has caused me to be. I'm guessing that those in Ted's church won't be referring to him as "our lovable closet queen."

And the writer seems to be saying that restoration back to God's favor was an eight year process. Is that really how long it takes to get back in God's favor after committing a sin? If it is, you know what creek I'm way up without a paddle.

Alvin:
You're confusing two categories. (1) Forgiveness. And (2) Trust.

Yes, forgiveness can be instantaneous. That just means you forego your right to revenge or payback. But a broken trust cannot be immediately restored.

When we talk about restoration in this situation, we're not talking just about forgiveness, we're talking about whether a person can restore his ability to lead with integrity.

You don't have to be perfect to lead. I'd say a person can overeat and be open about that fact and still retain enough trust to lead people. But deception, duplicity, and breaking promises (violating marriage vows) is broken trust.

For most people, you can't have deceived people, lived a secret life, and also maintain the trust necessary to lead.

Restoration is about healing what's broken, and that includes not only unconfessed and hidden sin but also rebuilding a life that's trustworthy.

I appreciate Alvin's comment, and I had similar thoughts as I read the article. My train of thought leads in a slightly different direction: It seems that at times we require perfection of our leaders, and as long as they can maintain the facade, they maintain their position. However, such "moral" sins as sexual immorality destroy this image, and consequently they lose their position. A popular quote says, "The world doesn't hate Christians because they are perfect, only because they act like it." And then once our sins become evident, the world loves to point the finger.

This raises two thoughts for me:

1. Perhaps our emphasis as Christians should not be perfection (or what we like to call "sanctification"), but rather forgiveness (or what we like to call "restoration"). If we recognize and publicly confess on a daily basis that we are not perfect, simply forgiven, we can continually restore relationships on all levels. As Luther said, "I am always saved, always a sinner."

2. (and seemingly contradictory, but I believe necessary) Should we not treat all sin as seriously as we treat sexual sin? As Alvin said, the sin of gluttony? What about financial responsibility? What about care for the sick, poor and homeless? What about divorce? I think this would build credibility when we speak against so-called "moral" sins.

Final thought: A wonderful Biblical example of restoration would be Moses. And to answer the question of the blog, I think the requirement that brought him (back?) into "ministry" was the call of God. Is that not always our ultimate accountability?

After breakfast Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” Peter replied, “you know I love you.” “Then feed my lambs,” Jesus told him. Jesus repeated the question: “Simon son of John, do you love me?” “Yes, Lord,” Peter said, “you know I love you.” “Then take care of my sheep,” Jesus said. A third time he asked him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Then feed my sheep.

No lengthy process. Jesus does not seem to think it's an earthshaking dichotomy that we can have a strong desire in our heart to follow him and still fall into sin.

The problem is the false belief that God expects perfection.

Where we fail is in raising up "celebrity" pastors, bookwriters, speakers, leaders of "movements"...somehow we need to get back to the "local church" and be content with that.

I would like to comment about the whole issue of restoration in relation to forgiveness.

Yes, forgiveness can be "instantaneous", and it should be (even though that's sometimes easier said than done) if a brother or sister asks for forgiveness, because only God is in a position to judge a man's heart or a woman's heart.

Sometimes, the reason people continue to sin isn't that they don't know that what they are doing is wrong, but simply because they struggle with issues pertaining to self-control. Addicts and people with various emotional issues pertaining to things such as "anger management" often fall into that category. It seems likely to me that Ted Haggard falls into that category.

That's much different from defiantly defending one's non-existent "right" to continue to sin.

When it comes to people in the latter category, I think there's a serious problem in the church today when it comes to erroneous doctrines concerning the matter of forgiveness. Some Christians teach the feel-good new-agey doctrine that forgiveness should be unconditional.

According to such people, Ted Haggard's wife, children and followers would be obliged to forgive him for his sins even if he defiantly stood before them and tried to defend and rationalize those sins, or even if there was objective evidence to support the idea that his admissions of guilt before God were insincere.

That's not what the Bible teaches. I highly recommend the book "From Forgiven to Forgiving" by Jay Edward Adams, for a badly needed antidote to the heretical teaching that forgiveness should be extended even to those who exhibit no signs of repentance whatsoever.

We are told in the Bible to forgive those who sin against us just as God forgives us for our sins against God. So the obvious question is this: How exactly does God forgive?

God's love for mankind is unconditional, and God's forgiveness certainly is free in the sense that it is a gift which cannot be earned through good works. But "undeserved" and "unconditional" are not synonymous. God's forgiveness of individual human beings is not unconditional.

If God's forgiveness were unconditional, there would be no hell. Everyone who'd ever lived on earth, including Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Erzebet Bathory and numerous other incredibly evil people, would be forgiven. They would therefore populate heaven along with those of us who have humbled ourselves and asked God for forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

What kind of place do you suppose "heaven" be if such people were granted admission to heaven even though they were not repentant? I think the answer is obvious: If admission to heaven were truly unconditional, heaven would not be very heavenly. A lifetime of having to deal with such people was bad enough. Imagine having such people as next door neighbors for all of eternity! Sounds more like hell to me.

In Ted Haggard's case, he does seem to have asked for forgiveness, so that's certainly a first step. But is it sincere, or is it the "Oops, I got my hands caught in the cookie jar and I have no choice but to ask forgiveness" type of repentance? Only God knows for sure, but it behooves us to exhibit a certain amount of skepticism, it seems to me. Soul searching is not usually the kind of thing that happens overnight, although there are certainly dramatic exceptions (such as Paul's experience on the road to Damascus).

To paraphrase an expression popular during the Cold War with Russia, the church ought to "forgive, but verify."

The fact that Ted has stepped down from leadership is sad and tragic, but it is not the end of the world for the church. We worship God, not Ted Haggard. The church has survived and thrived in spite of scandals much worse than this one. Since Ted is not indispensable. We should not be overly eager to reinstate him in a position of leadership.

My feeling is that Ted should place himself in submission under a group of Christians dedicated to holding him accountable over a long period of time, and to helping him when he confesses that he's struggling with temptation.

Ideally, this should not be in a place where he once held power, but in an altogether new location where no one is particularly impressed with his prestigious past history.

I agree with Brad on the whole prefection thing. This extends especially to leaders, and that evangelical leaders (denominational and nondenominational) really don't have safe places to go to confess and be held accountable. When will evangelicalism realize that it can’t keep isolating its pastors and not providing any kind of support and accountability for them? Those of us who pastor in evangelical denominations are pretty much left on our own once we're ordained. Isolation and loneliness are epidemics among evangelical pastors, pastoral staff, and their families. One of the most isolated times in my life was when I was on staff as an associate pastor, and college and seminary do not prepare for you for it. I was in no way prepared for the isolationism and loneliness I was engulfed in. Evangelical churches and denominations need to start giving their pastors the support they need and the safe sanctuaries they need to confess sin and pursue accountability. The Christian life cannot be lived on one’s own: community is needed, and this is even more so for its leaders. I agree there needs to be restoration, but I would also like to see the causes addressed too, as well as plans put into place to help pastors before they choose to sin let alone fall.

Thank you for this article!

God's grace and mercy is sufficient for all!

Didn't King David kill another man in order to take that man's wife? Sin is sin....

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!

Let's forgive and let God's healing begin in us all.

Marshall:

Two pieces of perspecitve from wise mentors that I found helpful when our church had to address the question of restoration:

1. "A one time offense is one thing, but a repeated pattern is another."

2. "It depends (1) how deep the problem is, (2) how long it has gone on, (3) and if he recognizes & deals with it."

I've been told that christians are the only people that kill their wounded. Sadly, when I heard this statement I could honestly say they were right.

We as christians need to start doing three things:

1. We need to learn to forgive one another. All of us are at fault and many of us may have a "secret" sin we don't want others to know about. I honestly believe that more people would seek help if they knew they weren't going to be run off by the church (and when I say church I mean the people in it not just the ministers).

2. We need to start extending grace. Now you may ask: Isn't grace the same as forgivness? Yes, but giving grace is more than that. It's restoring a person back to where they were. Keeping them accountable and making sure that they can get rid of the problem instead of continuing in their sin.

3. We must always remember that ministers are people too. They have the same faults as we do and if anything they are tempted more because they are being used by God to lead His people. The question comes up: Where does a minister go when they need to be ministered too? I don't know the answer to that question, but I think if we can find an answer we would have less leaders in the church who are coming up on the six o'clock news being busted for their sins.

Christ gives us forgivess, grace, mercy, and most importantly love. If we can start being like Christ to others I think we would see more people coming to church than leaving it.

This whole thing is a sad mess, and I think that there shouldn't be a time limit or length set for "restoration." I'm not sure what Haggard would be "restored to" since forgiveness comes from the Lord nor do I know whose seal of approval he needs to continue ministry. But, I sense this would be a combination of factors including time, prayer, and reflection. It would be up to a local church to take another chance on him, and I wouldn't think this would be for a long time. I'm not certain he wants the kind of restoration we typically think about.

We are all sinners, and there are dark places in each of our lives that if known would surprise a lot of people. There are also many men and women serving in anonymity who are faithful to their spouses and living their best for the Lord. We ought to celebrate these individuals as much as we hurt the fall of one the more prominent ministers.

A little more humility wouldn't hurt any of us.

If only God knows our hearts, and our hearts are deceitful and wicked above all else, then shouldn't we be safe in confessing our heartaches, disappointments, and failures to Him? But sometimes we feel it helps to tell someone human what we struggle with. But then, how do we know our "secret" is safe?

I bet Rev. Haggard felt he had no one he could go to with his sin and that it secretly ate him alive. Too bad we crucify Christians for their sin and humanness. It's no wonder many see no option but suicide. I've lived with the pain of a horrible marriage for more than 20 years and wish I could get divorced so badly. But the "good girl" image" has kept me here. I know God understands, but other Christians ... well that's another story. I'd like to see a Christian website devoted to successful second marriages and give a little hope!!

I'm asking the same question tonight for Northern California on 710am KFIA in Sacramento, and 1100am KFAX in San Francisco. Go to www.kfia.com and click on "Hogue Blog." You can offer your comments via email, and you can listen via the station's web audio streaming.

I just had a couple of thoughts after reading the article and the responses to it:
1. A pastor of a church has higher accountability before God.
2. Sexual sins seem to be considered by God as more serious than other sins.
3. The lists in the pastoral epistles for elders, deacons, etc., exclude certain people from the ministry (i.e., it mentions the husband of one wife, but not financial problems).
4. Susan, the Gospels especially say not to divorce. I know how awful a marriage can be, but you will be rewarded for your obedience to God in the next life, even if not in this life.

While in a sense all sins are the same in that they stand between us in God, there are some things in the New Testament that seem to have an extra warning attached. Just because we want something to be so (like permission to seek a divorce), doesn't give us the freedom to act outside the limitations of Scripture.

Alvin - The writer refers to committing "a moral sin." Don't all sins fit that category?

Just to help your understanding a little, 1 Corinthians chapter six deals specifically with sexual sin and verse 18 says this, "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits fornication sins against his own body." Hope this helps with why this particular sin eclipses most others in the eyes of the church. I agree with you about glottony; not only does the church cast a blind eye to it, but we actually encourage it. This is a great opportunity for pastors to preach Biblical truth to their congregations, but I'll just bet most won't because congregations don't want to hear it. Just tickle my ears please.

We all sin in many ways and God loves sinners which is why He died in our place. God will always forgive and accept the repentant heart. Where it gets complicated is where a leader sins. The leader is no better or worse than any other human being, but because of their position, it has the effect of destroying faith in the lives of others. So because of that, in a sense the sin is greater. Firstly, let us not be harsh or judgemental because we too are sinners. Let us also remember to keep our eyes on Christ and we will never be dissapointed.

Ted can be forgiven but it will not be instantaneous. Gayle Haggard is going to have a terrible year. Who knows what she will do when the final cost of Ted's years of deceit are unveiled.

Because of Ted's sins; people may well lose their jobs at his church. His children and his wife and his supporters will be in a very uncomfortable position in the coming weeks/months when friends ask for the truth.
More people will justify their own sins on the basis of Ted's.

The young homosexual man is scarred by Ted's hypocrisy.
Ted's sin has HUGE reprecussions. This is not a small thing. When Jimmy Swaggart fell, John MacArthur gave a 12 point message in chapel at Master's College. (1984?) Bottom line, Jimmy Swaggart should never again pastor.
Bottom line on Ted Haggard. He should never again pastor.

May Ted truly, truly come to recognize the consequences of his sins in the coming months and begin the LONG, PAINFUL restoration/transformation process.

Dear all...

I agree with all that you have written, in particular the fact that we are all sinners; that we're prone to 'mistakes' and sin; that grace be extended to us; that we should forgive one another. In fact we shouldn't put unrealistic and legalistic expectations on people. That is all correct.

But what I am concerned about is that this is an incomplete approach to Christianity. Have we forgotten what the Bible has written a whole host of other things about spiritual transformation? Are we not exhorted to 'not live in sin anymore', as Paul writes in Romans? Or to 'put on the new self' as in Ephesians? Or even how Paul himself writes that he consistently disciplines himself so that in the course of this race he himself will not be disqualified?

Have we forgotten about the power of the Gospel and of God? The power of God who NOT only heals and saves but TRANSFORMS? Have we forgotten that Jesus did not just "redeem us from all wickedness" but even more "to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good" (Titus 2: 14)?

And are not leaders called to be even more of setting a standard in terms of holiness and as we the church, are we not called to be the bride of Jesus Christ? While Jesus said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone', He also said 'Go and sin no more'? What about carrying our own crosses, as in Luke 9: 23?

In no way am I condemning anyone. But we are accountable to God for leading His flock and to not be a stumbling block to others, and as His royal priesthood, we are called to set an example to this world.

So for us to be balanced Christians, we need to practice BOTH forgiveness and sanctification.

I have been through restoration. My denomination suspended my ordination when I was accused by denominational and church leadership of conduct unbecoming a minister. What was my conduct? Not agreeing with leadership and speaking up. I submitted to the restoration process because I desire to serve God and wanted no stain on my record. In the end my ordination was restored and denominational leadership acknowledged that they acted prematurely.

On the other hand, the person sending me into this situation later confessed that he had affairs at this church and also his next church. He was not willing to go through the restoration process of the denomination. He left ministry but soon after was courted by a group of community churches. He started as associate pastor but soon became a senior pastor of a church plant. Word has it that he went through a 12-step program for restoration. One glitch: he never made amends with the people he hurt at the church he left.

Do I believe in restoration? Absolutely. Should there be a process? Definitely. Does that mean we are judging? I don't think so. I'm grateful for having gone through the restoration process even if I did not really need it because I grew as a Christian and in my character. This post is not motivated by sour grapes or bitterness.

We need to remember that the Apostle Paul said to "kick out" the brother who sins for his good so that he may repent and come back. And we are also told not to be too eager to be teachers because we'll be held to a higher standard.

If we turn a blind eye or are too gracious to leaders who sin publicly then we risk losing our witness to a world that's watching.

We need to extend forgiveness, grace and love. This is not the same as being tolerant or letting people back into a position of leadership.

One other litmus test for a person ready to resume ministry is the issue of making amends. If you've sinned, you need to make amends. If a person is unwilling to make amends, have they truly repented and acknowledged the depth and consequences of their sin?

One thought that occurs to me is the fact that Ted Haggard's reputation has been totally blown before not just the church but unbelievers. The Bible teaches that those in leadership should be of good reputation. That to me would be the issue of whether or not he should be in public ministry.

At the same time I am grieved and wish the best for this man. He has ministered at my church and has been a mentor to my pastor; it saddens me that he is in this position now--but he is in the very best place he can be--nowhere to go but up. Now he can get help and the ministry he needs.

I find it odd when we speak of pastors and elders caught in situations like this that we don't find ourselves going back to the charcter qualifications for elder/overseers in our church that we read about in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. An overseer/elder desires a noble task, but he also must be above reproach. My observation is that there is definatley a reproachable issue here. An overseer is also to be the husband of one wife or a "one woman man." It seems like the marriage covenant has been broken and he has committed adultery against his wife.

Those two seem to be pretty important in Paul's list. I believe that he lists these qualifications in order of importance and they are the first two. Later in the list it speaks of having self control.

It seems very clear to me, as a pastor, and a student of God's Word that Mr. haggerd has disqualified himself from minsistry according to the standards that our Lord put in place.

I do believe that there is room for restoration, because our God is a God who restores. Look at Israel's "on again/off again" relationship with him. Look at Peter's denial of his Lord and subsequent restoration and work for the gospel.

I do think however, that because of Mr. Haggerd's position, it will be very difficult for him to be restored to the position that he was in before. My fear is that in a church that he started, that the people and leadership of the church will continue to look to him for leadership and restore him too quickly.

My view of Scripture and the qualifications for leadership cause me to believe that Mr. Haggerd and maybe some other who have responded to this post are disqualified for a time. A clear process of restoration needs to be sought out. There needs to be clear repentance and changing of ways. That repentance needs to be shown to his Lord first, then his wife and family even before being taken back to the church.

When Pastors Implode

The time has come to repent and discern, watch and pray, rather than letting Christ’s name be slandered again.

Last month I went to preach in a church in Romania. The first question the church leaders asked me was when I had repented and made Christ the Lord of my life. They were more interested in my walk with the Lord than how famous I am, and I think we all can learn from this attitude. When was the last time you asked your pastor about his personal testimony and walk with God?

In India some people become Hindu priests because their fathers were priests. It is not a calling but something familiar they grew up with. Here in North America it is not that different. A few years in a Bible College simply qualifies another pastor to lead God’s people.

What do we make of the painful experience of watching Ted Haggard downfall? His church finally admitted that their pastor purchased methamphetamines and the services of a male prostitute.

A few years ago, I was sharing a room with a pastor during a national conference. Late that night during my sleep, I heard a strange muffled sound. My room mate was watching pornography on TV all night. The next morning he left to preach his "spirit-filled" sermon. How can this be? And how often does this kind of thing actually happen?

I have known Christian leaders with lustful eyes, and others with insatiable hunger for wealth, power and success. They are always looking for something bigger and better. The healthy lifestyles that satisfy most people seem to have become inadequate for them.

More than once we've seen the truth of such a person's life exposed; not always at once, but in a series of embarrassing disclosures. No amount of accountability seems to be adequate to contain a person living with such inner conflict. The church has been too lax in setting standards for its leaders.

The time has come to repent and discern, watch and pray, rather than letting Christ’s name be slandered again.

- Dr. Joseph Chavady

P.S. Your comments are welcome. Please write to me at chavady@hotmail.com

(Dr. Joseph Chavady has been serving as an evangelist and pastor for the past 35 years. He is currently the president of One to one International, a mission organization that supports evangelists and pastors who reach the unreached. Dr. Chavady travels extensively in Asia, Europe, and North America as an advocate of the vitally important role of missions in the life of the church.)

You know, this whole experience has caused me to reflect upon my own life. What things do I have hidden, if any? How much accountability do I have? I know that he and his family are hurting, probably more then the rest of my church (New Life Church) is. As much as there are consequences for his actions with it being a sexual sin, we've got to remember, just as people have posted, that we are all sinners. I've even questioned if I should lead - not because I've been in Ted's situation, but because, just like he, I am human, and I know I will sin. I've asked myself since this all came into the open, if I could stand the test of time, and also would I be the target of many an arrow delivered by my own brothers and sisters in the Lord. I am much of who I am today, because of Ted Haggard. Though he stumbled, he was a fine example of a godly man. As his letter to the public stated, he will never pastor New Life Church again, but the Overseers hope to see him doing ministry again once restoration occurs. And you know what? So do I. I would love for him to speak words of wisdom and truth into my life again!

Maybe there continues to be a denial that believers remain sinners. Thus, while there are commands from God to which to adhere, the reality is that all remain sinners who fall short of the glory of God. Believers, including pastors, sin.

The tension is captured wonderfully by Paul in Romans 7:14-25, and 1 John 2:1-2.

When the Church prosecutes its sinners has it overlooked forgiveness?

When a believer beats him or herself up with guilt has that believer failed to claim forgiveness?

While we exhorted to a lifestyle reflecting our faith, major ingredients are forgiveness and grace.

Should a person remain as a pastor after a major collapse? Probably not. This is a time of healing, not a time of leading.

It does seem that all too often just when a pastor finds out that the Gospel really is about God's forgiveness because he or she has sinned, that is the time when the fury of the Church turns out to be the most intense.

We do remain in tension. We cannot condone sin and ignore it. However, we are called profoundly to offer grace, love, mercy and forgiveness to those who sin.

When we confess our sins, we are not giving believing sinners the right to beat up on us. Can we not actually expect our fellow believers to exemplify God's grace and offer us forgiveness? What greater sin is there than killing the Messiah. Yet, it was met with Christ's plea for forgiveness. Surely, we in the Church fail to live like Jesus when we beat up on people who sin when Jesus himself did not.

Again, interesting discussion and opinions.

First, to those who wish to remove Haggard completely from ministry because he screwed up, let's remember the context of the verse. If someone continues to sin WILLINGLY and has no desire to stop, then they should reassess their calling. We don't have to listen and follow hypocrites.

Second, the divorce thing. Susan, I'm sure you had a good reason. I don't believe in divorce on grounds of "I just don't feel like it anymore" or because a better model is available on the market, but I do agree that there are terms (and not all are listed in the Bible). My mother drank away nearly 15 years of her marriage, had at least one affair, shopped marriage counselors, and then filed for divorce while my codependent father waited, hoping to save something. Nearly 5 years later, my father and one sibling are in a much better place. Divorce is terrible for all involved, but it happens and I believe life can get better. My encouragement for you.

Third, I'm waiting for some type of actual confession from Haggard. He has admitted to purchasing one of the most addictive drugs of our day, but he only looked at it and threw it away, so that's okay(???). Apparently that's easier and more acceptable to admit to than alleged gay sex. And he "did not have sex with that man," to paraphrase a clintonism So then what did he do that caused him to wish to resign? I'm missing something here. If he does confess to drug use or *gasp* same-sex infidelity, are we still going to be here with open arms, offering our forgiveness, or are we limited in that capacity?

I forgive him, even if he did sneak out of the closet. I just want him to be honest.

Let's stop shooting our wounded.

"Sexual sins seem to be considered by God as more serious than other sins."

I have heard this many times. When I ask for scripture I often get the "abomination" scriptures. But if one closely examines the abomination scriptures, you will find the more churchy sins in there, too. Judging and works righteousness are among them.

James 2:10-13
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
NKJV

If you think of yourself more highly than you ought, judge another, gossip, backbite, etc, YOU are guilty of homosexuality. Let's look at Jesus' words:

Matt 5:21-22

21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.
NIV

Just the thought is sufficient for guilt. So, we are ALL guilty of ALL, and ONLY saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Now, let us take heed of Paul's words:

Gal 6:1-2
6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
NIV

Watch how you think & talk about this episode with Haggard or anyone else, "you who are spiritual", as you may well be setting yourselves up for a fall, the kind that pride comes before.

Having said all this, sexual sins are no worse in God's eyes because all sin is the same and carries the same spiritual consequence (Romans 6:23). Yet different sins have different physical and mental consequences. Sexual sins fall into a category where people are impacted at such an intimate and deep level that it causes a ripple effect within a generation and across generations. This ripple effect has been described as generational sins or curses. I see this as mental, emotional, and physical attributes that lend themselves to a spiritual bias. But in themselves, sexual sin is no more repugnant to God than yours and my sins.

According to Paul, Ted Haggard is paying a high tuition for us to learn a lesson. Please do not let his pain go without learning it. We must go in meekness considering ourselves lest we also be tempted, humility, or we likewise will find ourselves in the grasp of terrible sin, whatever YOUR flavor is.

Dear Family,

This is one of a number of very painful and difficult conversations going on in the Church today. I have read the words "forgiveness," "grace," "restoration," and "repentance," among others. But one word that no one seems to want to use is "consequences." Every sin has its consequences. While God promises forgiveness now (this side of glory), He nowhere promises release from the consequences sinful choices may have during our time on earth. Does God heal? Yes. Does He redeem us from eternal consequences? Definitely! Does He remove temporal consequences? Rarely, if ever. Can He use temporal consequences that sin may bring into our lives for His glory? Graciously, yes.

A few years ago, I had the privilege of praying with a young man in his hospital bed as he lay dying of AIDS. He verbally responded to the Lord in repentance as He cried out for God's mercy. As far as I can tell, he received God's forgiveness and mercy. But he still died of AIDS some days later. At his funeral, the gospel was preached to some who would never listen any other time. My brother tasted the consequences of his lifestyle, God received glory in his testimony.

I do not know what God wants to do with our brother, Ted Haggard. But he has consequences to face for his sin - one of which may be disqualification from pastoral ministry and church leadership. We love the forgiveness of God, but are we as willing to allow Him to gain glory through the painful consequences our sins carry?

Lovingly,

Tim Davis

With all due respect but most of this conversation is some of the most confused and misguided stuff I have ever read. First off we are talking about restoration as a LEADER, not about salvation.

Yes, for purposes of salvation a sin is a sin. And if you commit just one in your life you need God’s grace to be saved. However, leadership is a privilege. There are standards for leadership. You have to meet those standards or you shouldn’t be a leader. He violated those standards and his privileges as a leader were rightfully revoked.

I would add leaders are accountable to God for things non-leaders are not, see Hebrews 13:17. As this verse talks about they are accountable to how they affect others. He did damage to others. He should be held accountable for that fact.

In short what Haggard did wasn’t just a sin; it was a violation of his duties as a leader. God forgave him of his sin 2,000 years ago on the cross, before Haggard was even born. Being restored to a leader is a totally different subject.

All this talk about how we need to not throw the first stone, and understand grace is just misguided. He did serious damage to the Kingdom of God. I am willing to bet there are real people who today are questioning their faith in God today because of the damage he did. A lesser church could be at serious risk of closing its door. I have seen it happen. The minister of a small church steps out on his wife, and it set off the events that lead to the church closing its doors.

Grace and forgiveness for sin, but before you become a leader you better be prepared for accountability

Christians in America are more concerned with the "graver sin" of pastors not doing church the way they would prefer. They don't want us to be human. They give lip service to us having family lives, but then come down on us if we actually spend time with our families. Christians would rather we pastors spend our energy on them instead of also investing in our own spiritual lives and in relationships with other pastors. They also hold us to higher standards event though the scriptures they quote apply to all church leaders. Seminaries teach us to be proud of our position and education.

So, if we pastors aren't allowed to follow God's leading, aren't allowed to be human, aren't allowed to have healthy family lives, aren't allowed to invest in our own spirituality and in other pastors, and are taught to be proud because we're "special," how can we not fall? I do not in any way, shape or form condone sin, and I do promote accountability, but why in the world do we expect different results when we're set up for failure?

Until three months ago, I pastored a small church for over six years. I was not involved in "moral failure." I strove to do all those things I said we pastors are not supposed to do, so that God would be honored and my years of ministry would be extended. I feel badly for Ted Haggard and his family because the Christian culture in America set him up for failure. May all of us take heed, do what's necessary and what God leads regardless of opposition, and help restore the broken.

I see the situation with Ted Haggard as a classic example of how the church is failing to disciple its members at the level of the heart. We have made discipleship either cognitive--right biblical knowledge and theology--or behaviorial--learning to act like a Christian. Sometimes its is simply disciplship by osmosis--be faithful at church and you will mature. As a professor in theological eduation, I became painfully aware of the failure of theological education to provide discipleship for the students or to equip them to disciple people in the churches they would serve. A student in my class at Trinity wrote in a paper that he had been a Christian for 20 years and had never been discipled. He was a graduate of Moody Bible Institute and a student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He certain had been discipled cognitively, but no one in that process had helped him deal with the emotional and spiritual baggage he brought with him into the Christian life. It is obvious that no one had helped Ted Haggard deal with the baggage he brought with him. I could tell story after story of men who have come to me for help who had problems rooted in childhood experiences that our spiritual enemy was using to lead them into self-rejection, feelings of inferiority, and all kinds of other things.

Jim Wilder really puts his finger on the problem when he speaks of the need to return to joy. When an infant does not receive genuine, unconditional love, the child does not learn what true joy is. In the next stage of life--childhood--the child needs to learn discipline and discernment. They need to learn to postpone immediate gratification of desires in order to find the true joy that comes from an intimate love relationship with God. If they don't know what true joy is, they will turn to entertainments, amusements, and other pleasures, even the pleasure of "successful" ministry, but those substitutes never really satisfy the inner need for the joy that comes from intimacy with God. Instead they become addictions which call for more and more.

Wilder says that as many as 75 percent of men are persons living in adult bodies but still functioning at the infant or child level when it comes to emotional and spiritual relationships. They demonstrate talents and abilities; so they are elevated to leadership and even to eldeship, but they are spiritual elders only in the cognitive and behavioral areas, but not in the area of intimacy with God. Love is the most powerful motivator in the world, and if it is present in one's life, the counterfeits will be repulsive rather than attractive.

This situation should call the church to true repentance for its turning from the founatin of living waters and pursuing what God, through his prophet Jeremiah, calls "broken cisterns that can hold no water" (Jer. 2:13).

The more I study and meditate on scripture, the more I believe that NOT ALL SIN IS EQUAL. Yes, any sin is enough to pull us so far from the glory of God that we can't get there on our own. But as we see the working of sin in our lives, we must recognize that some sins do more damage, are more crucial to see victory over, and must be dealt with differently than others.

Scripture tells us to put some sins away and in the same breath tells us to "crucify" others. Some sins are taught to be wrong, others are called "abominations" before God.

A deacon after having grown up with parents telling him to shun the gambling industry might out of greed choose to buy a lottery ticket. That is not in the same ballpark with a pastor that commits adultery and breaks up a home.

Understanding the seriousness of all sin will cause some men and women who are very holy people (compared to me and most of us) to be very contrite and humble about misbehaviors or poor thinking that my sinful and calloused heart would not be bothered by much; but the attitude that all sin is equal will usually result instead in excusing and not effectively dealing with sin that we can not excuse.

Alvin
If you think all sins are the same then ask your wife if she prefers a husband who overeats to a husband who commits adultery.

The church office calls for good reputation in the community. If you do not have it you are not to lead. God never wavers in His love for sinners, but sin has consequences. If I drive and crash because I am speeding the injuries are permanent even after the accident is history.
This is a hard subject because a thought is as bad as the deed and we know only forgiven sinners go to heaven. However we need examples of Christ like life and a recognition that the Church while accepting everyone has standards every one is expected to follow.
The Vineyard church in Bournemouth UK has the motto " a place where the imperfect are perfectly welcome" Let us aspire to make that so, while maintaining boundaries let us be known for loving kindness.

Please do not use loneliness to justify the moral decay of a pastor. Yes, a pastor is also a human being. But is not that when a pastor accepts the call from a church, he is willing to sacrifice himself for a higher purpose? The higher purpose, however, should be to serve your brothers and sisters, not God! Jesus says “the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many!”

Therefore, in all discussion, perhaps, we need to rethink the meaning of being a Christian leader! The consequence of being a leader is loneness! It is irony that many so called Christian leaders do not accept the consequence of been a leader!

It is human experience that one earns friendship through serving others, not through been a leader. Want to be a pastor cared by your congregations? Being not a leader but a friend! Being a servant not a leader to your brothers and sisters! And you will be a leader befriended by your brothers and sisters! Then, your brothers and sisters will not be that critical to you because you are their friend; not their leader!

Chen, I appreciate what you shared, but in reality leaders are only lonely because they choose to be lonely. We've all bought into the saying "It's lonely at the top" as if it were a biblical standard. Leaders don't have to be lonely. Church leaders who conform to the standards of American Christian culture are doomed to loneliness. It's much easier for us to get sucked into that culture instead of creating a more biblical one.

Bottom line: the Church in America is sick. We need a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all of us and on all of our churches if that's going to change, and if we're going to change.

"Bottom line: the Church in America is sick. We need a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all of us and on all of our churches if that's going to change, and if we're going to change."

Amen Brian, this is so true!

Despite the stunning sadness of discussing subject I feel exceedingly blessed by the spirit of this honest conversation as I read through all the messages with the tears. Still pray for the guy mentioned here most often.
However, some of the statements seem to me at least quite questionable. Because when we are talking about the responsibility or, in this case, accountability of the poor fallen brother so great, that it brought immeasurable damage to the Kingdom of God itself, then the question is lawful – what do we mean the Kingdom? Forgive my Ukrainian old-fashioned Christian mind, but with respect - do we really consider that these pompously established mega- and giga- personal kingdoms, filled with the common purpose of more greatness, unstoppable Sunday shows and thousands in many ways unsaved people attending them, as the most impressive advances of the Lord’s true Kingdom? And many, fortunately not all of them, always looking over your head, heavily guarded by their gatekeepers, eagerly rebuilding those ancient Hebrew-type monarchies mega-pastors, are examples of selfless servanthood? Those are, I must confess, bitter words that come, however, from very close personal experience. That experience kind of gives me some courage to speak with sorrow that somebody behind this unshakable system is really interested in producing spiritual consumers only, able to pay for what they listen, not to be strong Christian warriors. Many of those mega could easily solve a lot of problems of the Kingdom worldwide by simply refusing of flying the privet jets or by selling their fancy Bentleys. Or simply making themselves able to listen to the cry of the real people of the Kingdom. Until that’ll happen, I will cry in my pillow for my Ukrainian brothers throughout this night again.
I asked my 16-year-old daughter a question – where is that Kingdom? The answer was as expected that it is inside of us. Who can damage it there?

ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE, from a Pastor and family--One week ago we found out that our now 10 yr old son was "taken advantage of" in very perverted ways by his older male cousin (by 2 1/2 yrs)when our son was in 2nd grade--he recalls that the activity occured several times over 2 summers. There's no quick fix, it might actually be a life long journey...would we expect our son to jump into forgiveness, jump into trust, and be reconciled? I don't think so...he'll need some time to process the shame, his own guilt and embarassment, the anger, the fears, the lies. He has a lot to process. Will we forgive this cousin--absolutely, we don't want that bondage of resentment for us or our son and by forgiving him(though he hasn't asked for it yet) we embrace hope for this cousin. At the same time, the cousin forfeited his relationship with our son when he chose his actions. It was a costly decision for him. We have no reason to entrust our son into relationship with this cousin without a lot of time and proof that he is trustworthy with something that is of highest value to us. At this point we have full faith that as our son keeps his heart open to God and His truth, he will not only survive this, but he will conquer the shame, guilt, anger, fears, and lies that have been placed on his soul and we pray to this end for the cousin and our families.

It has been good to scroll through your comments. The forgiveness and reinstatement of Peter has got me thinking along with the question of how long restoration should take.

Concerning 'all sins are not equal' I think that is true esp. in regard to sexual sin - act not thought. (1 Cor. 6:18-20). And the bar is even higher for a teacher /leader knowing that life and teaching go together for good or evil (1 Tim.4:12-16; James 3:1) which probably sheds light on God's dealings with Moses.

One way of looking at the question of restoration and reinstatement to go back to 'start' and begin again. That is to commend those who aspire to care for the flock of God and test their character first and then let them serve AFTER they have shown consistency in the characteristics listed in 1 Tim.3:1-13. Character cannot be assessed overnight. It is observed over a period of time as people are given opportunity to show their colours, esp when no one is looking, and assessed in the little and the menial. It is not punishment or humiliation it is testing for their sake and especially the sake of the flock of God, long term.

I've recently written a brief book describing all I've learned about the process that leads to pastoral moral failure. It is my own story. I've had many pastors proof it and agree I hit the nail on the head and expanded their understanding. Every person's story is different but the same issues that lead a pastor to moral failure lead a congregant to eat emotionally or drink irresponsibly. We are all plagued with the same issues. Unfortunately, his gifts put the pastor on stage, usually too soon. As Erwin McManus says, his gifts exceed his character. The pressure of ministry reveals the cracks.