I think this post of Will Willimon's is the best response:
Our government no longer refers to us as “citizens,” but as “consumers.” If we can get you to consume cigarettes, cars, mouthwash, and sedatives, then we can get you to consume people. That is why Calvin Klein uses soft kiddie porn to sell blue jeans. Consumption.

Therefore the question: “How could we, who confess Jesus Christ as Lord, rather than say Michael Eisner as Lord, how can we as a church resist the corrosive acids of Capitalism?”

The immediate problem that confronts is that our church is accommodationist. Even though we know that there is a strong, critical strain in Wesleyanism against the evils of “riches,” we quickly learned in this society that there is no way to be a successful, responsible, public church, without submitting to the political vision that says that there is no greater purpose of human community than accumulation and aggrandizement.

For this reason, the “user friendly” approach to church won’t work. There is no way to entice people off the streets with hymns that are based on advertising jingles and end up with the cross-bearing, self-sacrificial, burden-bearing Jesus. Evangelism cannot be based upon our basic selfishness (“Come to Jesus and get everything you want fixed.”) and end up with anything resembling historic Christianity.
Read the whole thing here:
http://tinyurl.com/un2gt
My post is here:
http://tinyurl.com/y783ju

Pastor Perry,
Here is my 61 years of treading this clay as a response to your thoughts.

I have found by the leading of the Holy Spirit that the greatest show on earth is before my eyes 24/7 and I must admit that is the only way I would have it. Every on has a story including you and me, from separation from God – to union with Him.

Taking the work of the cross seriously, the shed blood of the Saviour eagerly and the risen Life factually. I have to say that, (to coin a phrase), the buck stops and starts here. By the work of the Living and present God, I have to say that the organized church is only a part of my relationship with the Divine Godhead not my relationship with whom we have to do with as only a part because of the organized church. We might be at a bit more comfortable with a brother or sister at church on Sunday morning but we would be a sorry soul at that if we only got a glimpse of Eternal Life on that event or Wednesday evening

I say, by experience, that Christian adulthood has been wrongly recognized as “ Leaders” “Staff” and moments of “ worship” and mostly labeled as “Christian”. It is the Holy Spirits chief aim, through Love, to bring everyone into the “ for you know Him who is from the beginning.” Not much need for pastors, evangilcals and bible expounders there.

I'm not bashing mind you, for I Love the Church and I know everything is in God's timing, for certainly I wouldn't have been brought out by salvation if it wasn't for Him. Even Jesus' crucifiction was not delayed by the good thoughts of the high priest suggesting not to crucify Christ but to let it tarry because if it wasn't of God it would fade off anyhow.

Greatest show on earth indeed.

I've got no problem with a great worship experience. When my community gets together on Sunday mornings, the other pastor and I hope and pray and strive towards a relevant retelling of the gospel through every media we can get our hands on. However, I don't see the church exploding in China --where their services are hidden from the public-- because of their powerful worship experiences, right?

I thoroughly agree with much of what Perry says ... though I'm not too excited about describing church as "entertainment." But I agree that the boredom and lifelessness in most of our churches is due to the laziness of the leaders. It is a travesty to "give God the glory" for the same thing in the same "package" week-in and week-out. Like Perry, at my little church our "creative team" works very hard to plan and create experiences of worship. We invite the holy Spirit to take us and guide us at the planning stage. We don't just throw a couple of "worship ingredients" together and hope that God shows up! We EXPECT God to show up because He has guided us through our planning and preparation all along.

Yes, doing church right does take WORK.
http://geoffbaggett.wordpress.com

I enjoyed reading Mr. Noble's thoughts, but must admit I was somewhat taken aback by his statement:

"I have heard pastors say that our process leaves no room for the Holy Spirit and that we are not open. Quite frankly if someone ever says that to my face I will have to be restrained from punching him in the throat!"

Ahem... is the desire to punch a fellow pastor in the throat really the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Such comments really do not reflect well upon Mr. Noble's pastorship. While he might have intended this comment in jest, I think it is a bit tasteless and should have been edited out. Otherwise this was an interesting and thought-provoking article.

At a Billy Graham School of Evangelism that I attended back in 1992, the stat was given that 80% of churches in North America have fewer than 200 people in them. I happen to pastor a church in a city of 10,000 people with 50 regular attenders (mostly seniors) and an annual budget of $90,000.

How might I go about making the experience on Sunday mornings at my church be more entertaining than 24, Lost or American Idol?

I've looked at NewSpring Church's website, and I'm glad they have access to a large number of resources and can invest in the technology, etc needed to do a "high-quality" show as seriously as Hollywood. However, for those of us who do the small-town, small-church thing, it's a bit of a stretch to conclude that we must be lazy or boring.

When will all of these so-called strategies for church growth and effectiveness actually be directed toward something the majority of churches on the continent can actually do?

Yeah, I think that's exactly what Jesus said, wasn't it? "If you say I'm not led by the Holy Spirit, I wish I could punch you in the throat!"

Now THAT's an experience that will usher in the kingdom.

"At a Billy Graham School of Evangelism that I attended back in 1992, the stat was given that 80% of churches in North America have fewer than 200 people in them. I happen to pastor a church in a city of 10,000 people with 50 regular attenders (mostly seniors) and an annual budget of $90,000."

This quote from one of the previous posts says what was on my mind exactly! I don't have a budget or the skills in my congregation to pull off Hollywood style entertainment every Sunday, nor would I want to!

I'm sick and tired of American Evangelicalism that embraces triumphalism, materialism, and entertainment in the name of "the Gospel".

When God became flesh, he did not choose a royal family or the capital city. Jesus did not grow up to be a general or a statesman. When tempted to use spectacular means to advance the Gospel, he rejected them ("Do not put the Lord your God to the Test"). At every point when his miracles drew in the crowds, he added a hard saying or two ("eat my flesh drink my blood" "pick up your cross", etc) to drive away the thrill seekers.

American Christianity is a mile wide and an inch deep. Rev. Noble's article doesn't show us how to make it any deeper.

I think focusing on an "experience" is thinking too superficially. Jesus did not go about "creating an experience" for his listeners. He was an experience. By being who he was and doing what he did, he became an experience to those who encountered him.

The church, in places from Acts to China, didn't and doesn't grow in real strength by focusing in exciting worship experiences. (Large numbers are not bad, but they are not a sure indicator of real spiritual growth and health.) People have flocked to the church most when the name of Jesus and all he stands for is lifted up, and there is a clear and ready expectation that the Holy Spirit will move in and through the people to bring people to Jesus and set them free.

Now, THAT'S and experience!

Actually, I think Jesus was a bit MORE violent than that. He didn't punch them in the throat, but he said they would never be forgiven. Would you rather be punched in the throat, or tossed into eternal fire?

The part of Perry's article that gets me is that I've seen too many times how my own pastoral laziness has negatively affected the communication of the Good News at my church. Whittle away all the rest of it if you don't like it. Are you "leading with all diligence"? Are you communicating as clearly as you possibly can to the men and women God has placed you among? Do you know how to get their attention so that you can communicate with them? Are you doing it?

Very good points, Derwyn. I, too, attend a small urban church (about 120 people). We're landlocked, poor, and committed to staying in our lower-class neighborhood. We'll never be able to emulate Hollywood.

A lot of what big churches describe as "quality" is just money. You buy staffpersons, you buy expensive equipment, you buy sets, you buy various bells and whistles. My church can't buy stuff.

But we do care deeply about reaching our neighborhood. I'm part of the worship creative team. All of us hold fulltime jobs, and we have zero money to work with in crafting special elements for our worship services. I was a bit turned off by Perry's continual insistence (sorry, but it struck me as a bit arrogant) that THEY, at New Spring, take things seriously. As if those of us with pocketchange resources don't.

I came out of a megachurch eight years ago. I enjoyed, and bragged about, the quality things we did. But after eight years in my current church, I could never go back, because I can't escape the thought that we were just spending a gob of money to entertain ourselves.

The Church - Christ's body - is entirely made up of initiated believers: the disciples, not the mulititude.

Christ's disciples don't (didn't) follow Christ because he is (was) entertaining - they follow(ed) him because he has "the words of life."

The multitude turned rejected Jesus when he gave the hard teachings - hard teachings aren't entertaining.

I can't believe that we even have to have this discussion....I think I'm going to be sick.

A church that is entertaining seems like it misses the point. Is Jesus and faith in Him just a spectator sport?

When God's people gather together, shouldn't we should be aiming for engagement? We're not spectators to any form of entertainment, but, by the Spirit, participants in the worship of God (music, the Word, service, fellowship, etc...).

Creating an experience for people to watch (i.e. -- the Christmas video) sounds akin to watching the Super Bowl in all its glitz and glory -- make it good and people will watch. Obviously, it's not the same thing as getting off one's backside and out on to the ground to toss the pigskin around. Entertainment and engagement are different things.

The flip side of leaving no room for the Holy Spirit is doing the work that only the Spirit can do or assigning God His role to play on Sunday a.m. rather than working the other way around.

Further, if entertainment is done to elicit an emotional response (versus a heart-felt response that invites engagement), how is that different from manipulation or is it?

The entertainment of t.v. is escapism and temporarily living in the land of make-believe. Again, stating the obvious, God's kingdom is about engaging in the reality of Christ where we are players not merely entertainers.

A knife hand strike to the throat at church by a pastor?! Now that's entertainment!!!

Wow - I must admit that when I read the article, I expected that there would be many posts that agreed with it. I commend all the people who commented - I am glad to know that there are still believers out there that arent just wanting to be entertained consumers. Part of the problem with the American Church is that it just wants to feel good. I see this especially in youth groups. They lure the kids in with concerts, games, parties, outings, and then when they grow past the age of youth group, we have adults hwo have no real knowledge of who God is. While having fun in church is great, and enjoying a service is great - that should not be the goal. The goal should be to wroship God and to have others come to know Him. NOt for their "happiness", but for their salvation, which leads to their joy in life. I am glad that I got saved in a small, rinky dinky, boring church - becuase I have no doubt that it was God that I experienced and not just an awesome worship team.

Hey I'm glad that Perry had the courage to express how frustrated he feels about some of his critics. It was an honest expression that wasn't sugar-coated by how he should feel. Now if he actually punches someone in the throat (which probably won't leave an obvious mark) then that would be an inappropriate action. And in that case, I would recommend a good therapist.

This church is taking seriously how to speak to our American consumeristic mindset. It is a tough thing to wrestle with.

It is interesting, however, how the early church viewed sacramental worship not as something that we do but that God does and we interact with. But then again, adequate preparation is needed even for something as simple as communion (Eucharist). Imagine:
"Did you bring the bread?"
"No, I thought you were going to bring it."
"This grape juice has fermented yet!"
"I figured that God was going to show and bring the bread with Him."

The church in a society obsessed with being entertained must become entertaining...a very sad state of affairs. One of the great sins of the American church is its tendency to try make to make God in its own image.

" I would much rather entertain people than bore them." ??? What on earth are you saying? That the Gospel message is boring? Pal, if you deliver it straighforward without sugar coating, they will NOT be bored. They may be offended, but not bored. If somebody comes to Christ just because they like the atmosphere, then their faith is build on sand and they will fall away at the first shock. It's better for them never to have been saved at all! And BTW, the reference to throat-punching doesn't make you seem edgy or cool. Just irritating.

The picture of the clown says it all...

Christianity isn't about "taking church seriously," it's about a relationship with Jesus Christ and fellow believers, a point which David seems to have totally missed.

I get way more out of a small group of believers, praying ernestly and sharing their deepest needs with each other, than I'll ever get from one of David's "entertaining" services.

If it's entertainment you want, pornography is way more entertaining... Oh wait! I forgot, it's got to be "holy" entertainment.

Bah!

"I am glad to know that there are still believers out there that arent just wanting to be entertained consumers."

It's comments like this that make it clear that we are talking past each other. The folks at NewSpring aren't just wanting to be entertained consumers, and that's not what the staff & pastors are working toward. They are engaging people with the gospel of Jesus Christ and calling people to transform the way they think and live in the world.

Perhaps, as Derek suggested, we could start talking in terms of "engagement" instead of "entertainment." I believe that gets at what both sides are shooting for.

While I can certainly agree with Perry's desire to reach people, I take issue with his comment, "I would much rather entertain people than bore them." Is one really better than the other? It seems to me either of those options leave you in the same place - shallow. If people are entertained that doesn't mean they've automatically been fed. Cotton candy can fill you up just as well as meat and potatoes, but it doesn't mean they both have the same nutritional value.

Plus, I must admit the arrogance than comes out in his post is pretty jarring. Are we lazy because my church of 75 people, who can barely afford to pay me a livable salary, doesn't have high-end productions to put on every Sunday morning to compete with "24" and "Lost"? Well, I guess I'm lazy then, but at least I don't need anyone to restrain me from punching my church members in the face. But I guess those churches where God's Spirit is working so powerfully can afford to hire bodyguards to hold back their pastors from doing that sort of thing.

i wish i had read this article sooner. i would have enjoyed more of the conversation back and forth. but here's my 2 cents:

i was drawn to this article, despite my fear of clowns, because of the phrase “Experiential Worship." this is a phrase i have adopted for the ministry that i pastor, but as i read the article i realized that we were using the term in two different ways. it seems that "experiential" has been defaulted to meaning, "having a good experience." this might be why the emphasis for the mega church is on rock concert-like experience. pay your money for the ticket, and sit back and enjoy the show. where as, when our community uses the term "experiential" we mean that people are involved in what is going on.

i taught experiential education for a few year. kids would learn about trees by touching a tree rather than having a teacher stand up and point to a picture. there is great benefit for teachers teaching in classrooms, but i don't think that our spirituality is meant to be reduced to a blackboard.

Jeff Ogden wrote:
"American Christianity is a mile wide and an inch deep. Rev. Noble's article doesn't show us how to make it any deeper."

here's how we do it, Jeff. our "worship" isn't reduced to music. during out "worship" times we do have people singing and playing instruments, but we also have people writing and painting and meditating and sitting in silence and drawing. we are experiencing worship because we are actively involved in it-in a way that we can be apart of. we, the church, get stuck with thinking that the only way for us to create a "worship experience" is to have brighter lights, more beautiful voices, and more energetic leaders than the world around us. but that way of thinking is reactionary, and it leads to lousy attempts at trying to mimic the world.

i'm sorry if my train of thought has derailed. may the Spirit grant wisdom for you to read the passion of my heart, and not the all to quick criticism. may everything we do point to GOD.

www.scochenour.blogspot.com

The near-unanimous negative response to this article is the most encouraging thing I've heard coming from the church in a long while. This is awesome!

The attention such worship is getting is fleeting. Sorry to say, but when the next Super-Walmart church springs up down the road, everyone will flock there instead. Of course, how can a church full of narcissists be the hands and feet of Jesus to a desperate world when they've spent all their money on digital fog machines and laser beams? This is just plain nuts, and by the looks of it, most good Christians have had enough. :)

I think the idea that members should look forward to church more than anything else in the week is on the right track. However, I think the better solution than entertainment is to create community. I know that being around friends and people who love me is a far better experience than getting a "high" from a worship experience. Churches should try to entertain, if they have the resources, because it breaks the stereotype of church as a boring place. However, the church should not neglect building a community. A church that feels like home is the best type of church there is.

Okay Mr. Noble, there's not even scriptural precedent for considering your Sunday morning event as what Jesus' considered the "Church." The interesting thing about every season of Lost, 24, Survivor, and whatever else you're upholding as the entertainment standard...is that it always leaves you with a feeling of emptiness and dissatisfaction...something like "that's it?!"

Our event and church-centered experiences also leave people feeling empty and ill-prepared to live out the transforming presence of Christ from day to day.

Hopefully Barna is right...and American Christianity is dying in its present form...so that authentic spirituality and relationship with the Father can be experienced by those who will unplug from the religious institutions of spiritainment.

How about swapping out the happy clown for a crying one?

This is what we have come down to. Now we have pastors wondering if they can compete with 24. What exactly are they learning in seminary? We need to wake up and realize that we can't compete with Hollywood, we need true blue Gospel Preaching and a return to the sacraments, oh and a little faith that God can still raise his voice over the din of modernity without us have to put on a circus.

If all the commentators here are members of NewSpring church, and are now commenting with insight in what Noble actually does, I can accept all the bitterness and negativeness. Then you have grounds for saying what you are saying. But from Noble`s post I read a church dedicated to bringing the Gospel to a generation that doesn`t speak the "Kaanan-language", and communicates in new ways.

The fact that they spend time on planning the sermones shouldn`t necessary lead to the conclusion that they are solely out to entertain people, and not give the message?

It`s tempting to suggest that it seems the internet is loaded with self-centered critics who seemingly has nothing else going on...

Interesting article, keep up the good work in your church Noble, and I promise you, I`m doing my best for the Lord in my church!

I think one solution to boring worship is updating liturgy, by writing calls to worship, responsive affirmations, prayers of confession in the order of worship in modern language, and deal with relevent matters. People might even take their bulletins home to re-do some of the corporate worship they experienced. I find the best option in worship is providing a blend of the formal and informal, a semi-liturgical service with contemporary touches, and using both the old hymns and contemporary praise songs.

Good discussion folks. I am a preacha in a small rural church and am proud that we are able to be creative with limited resources and "make Jesus famous" in our particular and unique context. Having said that...once on a vacation that took us through Anderson my family and I worshipped at New Spring. It is certianly an impressive place in many ways. They do church, the way they do it, really well and I commend them for it. Personally, some of the technology used and music style I could take or leave. I wouldn't go back to NS for that. But Perry has a powerful and engaging message which points to Jesus. And his contagious love for the Lord would bring me back for more. And perhaps that is the most important thing.

Why do we continue to spend more of our time bickering back and forth over who is "right" and who is "wrong" in their approach to ministry? This is exactly why the church in America has been neutered. We are more concerned about "being right" than we are about living right. When will we ever get it through our thick crainiums in our our grey matter, and more imoprtantly our heart, that we must STOP BEING CHILDISH and start being CHILDREN OF OUR FATHER!!!

I believe Paul said it best, "I have become all things to all people, so that by ALL MEANS I might win some." It is time to take a lesson here and use whatever means reasonably possible to reach a lost world that is tired of seeing "christians" spend mmore time bashing each other than truly living what they profess. (Love your neighbor as yourself, for example).

I think that many have become so caught up in laying waste to the "entertainment" aspect of this post that they missed a major part of the point.

I think I heard what Perry was saying. He was saying that it's not enough just to show up for a "meeting" each Sunday, go through the same program, sing the same songs (in the same order), go through all the motions, and then go home ... while the church in North America continues in its tailspin. It sounds very "spirutal" to reject his ideas. But, really, over 80% of the churches in North America are in decline. How "spiritual" is that?

We have to be missional and connect with the people of our culture. Our culture is media and technology driven. For crying out loud, we live in the 21s century! A step through the doors of most of our churches is much akin to stepping through a time portal back to 1955!

If we do not meet the people of North America "where they are," you can bet they're not going to come to a "same-old, same-old" church service (which, to many seems like "community service") where we are. That is reality.

This article is why I left my last church. They bought in to the same drug of choice. It’s funny how I ended up at a larger church—but one not enticed by the lure of entertainment and marketing driven Christianity.

One wonders if this pastor has ever read any Neil Postman (Amusing Ourselves to Death), Marshall MacLuhan or Shane Hipps. They should be required reading for any mega church wannabe that fancies the power of entertainment media.

The article exposes such hubris. Since Pastor Noble seeks to indict the church as lazy, I would argue that NewSpring is taking the Lazy approach--letting entertainment media co-opt the hard work of building the kingdom one person at a time.

Christ did not "create experiences." He was the Word (Logos) embodied in the flesh. The most compelling thing the Body can do is to imitate Christ, and convey the Word in our lives and communities of faith.

Technology is not neutral. It has its own epistemological biases. Therefore, we need to ask very difficult questions about why churches are doing this, and whether it can really bear the "fruit" they say it does? What kind of "converts" does it produce? And should we really think of them as customers or viewers, rather than converts? The two are very different.

At the end of they day, churches like these are selling their church service experiences, not life in Christ. Daily life in Christ is not a TV talk show, night club act or rock concert experience. The medium becomes the message, and the medium is what sells best.

Why does this happen? Because Jesus doesn’t sell.

When will we wake up and realize that we're not salespeople? We aren't called to sell the gospel, but to spread it. TV and entertainment media are great at marketing and selling consumer products, but terrible at transforming people. That takes personal, interactive relationships--the "dia logos" between God and humans that Christ embodies.

I submit that Noble's response to questions of the Holy Spirit belies his own theological view of the spiritual world. And to that I would add that the evil one probably feels unthreatened by a church so mobilized to entertain.

Sorry this post is so negative, but Noble’s article set the tone.

Far more commendable would be teaching your congregation to understand themselves as the church, the most exciting movement to turn the world upside down with the message of God's Redemption for a lost world. Read Acts. This is what the Church Christ began did before it sought cultural comfort and a life of ease.

We ought to be teaching our congregations not to get excited about going to watch a show every Sunday, but we ought to be teaching them to get excited about getting together with their fellow-workers in the Gospel Ministry of bringing healing to the world. They ought to be excited about Bible Study, about meeting with their beloved brothers and sisters in prayer meeting as they call on their Heavenly Daddy.

I confess this however; you are right when you accuse me of laziness. I am lazy. Lazy in that I do not pray as often as I ought to, I find that my schedule is often so busy and I get obsessed with minor details that do not matter that when the day is done I have hardly devoted even 1/24th of my day to true, heart-communion with my Saviour. I am lazy because I am caught up in the busyness of the world and my day-to-day life that I am not pressed through to love Christ and be devoted to His dear person. I am lazy and love so little the one who loved me before I knew him. Compounding this is the shame that I bear, knowing just how much he does love me unconditionally.

It is amusing to me to read the responses of some of the people as they seek to fillet Shane for his post. When you read his post you read about a person who has an unbelievable passion for the lost, a passion that will drive him to do anything he can to reach the lost (almost sounds like the apostle Paul) :)
All of this bantering back and forth about how he is wanting to punch someone is just ridiculous. he is expressing frustration at the apathetic responses of some people, and I don't believe in anyway he is wanting to punch someone. I would love to know if the people who are up in arms about his "wanting to punch them in the throat" comment are in churches that have grown, numerically, much at all in the past few years. Its easy to jump on the band wagon and tear somebody to shreds for a comment he made in jest so as to keep the spotlight from shining on the apathy that has pervaded their church. Sure, he may be a bit extreme in his approach, but thank God for his approach. Because of that church's approach they have seen countless number of people come to Christ. Let's get off our pious high horses and at least applaud the fact that because of his high energy and creative church services their are people who have put their faith in Jesus Christ.
If we put in half the time his church does in putting together a purposeful and relevant church service that seeks to effectively communicate the message of Jesus Christ in a way that makes sense, we would all begin to see some growth in our churches, and maybe then we would lay off of this chiding we have been doing, and recognize that maybe we have been lazy, and are just too afriad to admit it to ourselves.

There was this guy a while back . . . ummm. . . Jonathan Edwards. Ever heard of him? Well, yeah, he READ this sermon called something like "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." From what I read he was very monotone and somewhat, oh what would you say . . . boring? Well supposedly a great awakening took place, and many people were converted to the Savior, Jesus Christ. From what some people say, the power of the Holy Spirit was so great that people were crying out loud for mercy, and there were some that were even unconscious.

Does a person's entertainment "experience" have anything to do with the working of the Holy Spirit? A resounding "NO!" Rather, we should use Paul's method of trying to convert the lost. That would be preaching the Word with conviction. I also find it disturbing that you feel the need to compare your services with "24" and "American Idol." Who cares what those people do? They're carnal and worldly.

I agree that pastors shouldn't be lazy (or any Christian for that matter), but the labor should be spent in the study of God's holy Word and prayer, not in figuring out what media to use to create the best experience that people will enjoy on Sunday.

I disagree with practically all of your article. If you see me on the street please do not punch me in the throat.

This article is the biggest crock of BS I've ever read. Boring, eh? It's not because leaders do nothing. There are leaders who spend hour upon hour in the word of God so they can best deliver their sermon to people who are way to self centered, two faced, and stiff knecked to hear. I think it's because a bunch of arrogant, prideful congregants would rather sit there and be entertained than realize that there are issues in this world that are more important than two hours of amusement on Sunday morning. It's extremely asinine to even suggest that it's the church leadership's "job" to provide a bunch of goats with a "worship experience". No, it's not their job. I suggest going back to the Bible and do a topical study on shepherding the flock. When you do, you will find that no where in the Bible does a shepherd dance the jig for the sheep. It's not laziness. It's good sense. As if the flock doesn't get enough entertainment in the good ol' USofA after watching 40 hours of television a week. America is fat and lazy because they are fed too much brain candy. The leaders who seem boring to the likes of you have it right. They're commanded by Paul in his epistle to Timothy to be dignified.
Go ahead. Punch me in the throat.

I attend a church with about 1500 people in attendance on Sunday morning. We're large enough to afford "entertainment," and our church can do things that smaller churches cannot. Perhaps that brings some people in the door, but it's the power of the Holy Spirit that changes their lives and brings them back. When our choir sings a song like, "Jesus, Jesus, something special, supernatural, about that name. Jesus, Jesus, something happens when I mention your name..." and people spontaneously flood the altars to worship, the pastor doesn't get up at the pulpit and make them leave the altar so he can preach his entertaining illustrated sermon. He forgets about the semon and lets people worship. We leave knowing it was a great service because we were in the presence of God. People want a move of the Holy Spirit more than they want Starbucks coffee or popcorn and a movie. Unless it's The Passion or The Nativity, movies and drinks are not going to change lives and bring people into the presence of God. It might bring them in the front door, but it won't help them for eternity.

Looks like 'Rick Warrenism' at its best...uh, worst. This is nothing like the template for church set forth in the Bible. Nothing at all.

The church in America will collapse under the weight of its machinery designed to attract the world. Think Acts 2 and 3000 people getting saved. Think Peter...teaching the Word, the Holy Spirit draws them. It was not entertainment, it was God. He gets the glory.

And people won't be calling "...wanting to know what in the world we are doing to reach so many people". They will know that it is the Lord who is drawing people to Himself, and not your technique.

What a lot of pious arrogance! When you're reaching the same number of people that Perry Noble is by different means, THEN you can give him a hard time. In the mean time, leave him alone to reach thousands by whatever means necessary while you sit back and hope for a couple visitors this week. It's not about the money, and it's not about looking like Hollywood. It's about creative excellence, which requires neither. Before you rip apart Perry's methods based on this one article, go read any of the many articles online about how to be creative on a tight budget or how to reach your community even with a small congregation.

Yes, laziness should have no place in the lives of church leaders. But to what should hard work be directed? What brings God greater glory - seats filled with spiritual consumers, or a city filled with missional disciples?

Brent, yes, very good point. Yes, do use "quantity-over-quality" arguments. Equate "decisions for Christ" with genuine salvation and repentance. By all means. Count your tally of "sinner's prayers" and claim that every one of those emotion-driven, uninformed works invoked by mass hypnosis was a victory for Christ. Please.

Do carry on, because you only prove the point that "traditional" Christians wish to make. I will share my witness: I came to Christ because He is Who He is--and because I was who I was. I didn't need a rock concert, a PowerPoint presentation, or even a sermon. In fact, I had never felt more hopeless in my life, that day. I rejoice that I have no one else to whom to attribute my rebirth--because I can see that regeneration is the work of God alone!

Can your "reached thousands" say that?

"whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

It will take every means and tool The Lord has given His servants to reach ALL the lost. ALL will not be drawn to the same style of worship or level of participation. But ALL are drawn to something. Shame on us if we miss the opportunity to deliver His message because the packaging has become dull and faded, lifeless and irrelevant. NewSpring has her "audience", as did Paul, as did Peter; and so, too, does every other church. If we are to be faithful, fruitful fishers of men, we need the appropriate bait for the sea on which we sail.

Having been in the "no money for that" situation more often than not, I offer this encouragement: Smaller, financially challenged churches, that are prayerfully led to explore the use of technological advances and talents in the visual and performance arts, would do well to let their ministry needs be known among the congregation and the neighboring community. You may be amazed at the wealth of giftedness and tangible equipment that is at your service just for the asking. Excellence does not require deep pockets, it requires deep commitment. And deep faith and obedience. Ask Him for those and He'll give you the rest, too. Extend the invitation, exchange spectators for engaged participants. Let everyone be blessed to serve. New styles and tools can ENHANCE the presentation of God's message, they will not replace it. And all the glory be to God.

In the biblical gospel account of John is recorded an incident in which Jesus related a very unpopular teaching, without, I'm sure, power-point, exploding flashpods, or drama.

But Jesus "continued speaking. He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father helps him.'
From this time on, many of His disciples turned back. They no longer followed Him.

"'You don't want to leave also, do you?' Jesus asked the twelve.

"Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, who can we go to? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.'" (John 6:65-69)

We do so much to attract people to the difficult and scandalous message of Christ. Perhaps by doing so we win the crowd, but lose the people?

WOW...this has been a great discussion. I know that my comments can be controversial AND somewhat taken out of context from time to time...so here goes a brief explanation.

First of all--the punch in the throat thing...I do apologize if that offended someone. It was meant to be funny...you know...humor...ha ha, loosen up!

Second of all--you don't have to like what I said...but you have got to understand one thing--I am DESPERATE to see people meet Jesus. He changed my life...and I want so many more people to have that experience.

Unfortunately, "preaching the word" isn't reaching people. I know so many people who preach the word--but are so far over people's heads that they don't understand...and that isn't their fault--it's ours!

So--we work as hard as we can & remove the obstacles that the church has placed in the way for so long so that more people can come to Christ. Yes...it takes work!

You might not like the style of our church--but once again, our motivation is to see people meet Jesus...and to see those people grown up. Just because I didn't mention discipleship in my post doesn't mean that is isn't important!

AND as far as being small and in a small community--we had 100 people six years ago--and NO money...and God has done something awesome. AND...our community IS small...that is NO EXCUSE!!!

Believe it or not--we are passionate about teaching correct doctrine. We meet about it and debate even...just to make sure what is being taught is accurate and relevant.

I DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT. We are on the same team. AND...I believe if we would spend LESS time on blogs criticizing people who are reaching people...and actually GO and reach people...then HIS kingdom would be enlarged at a much faster rate!

the saddest part of this entire thread of discussion is the hateful, spiteful, negative, and the "i'm-more-spiritual-than-you-are" comments.

as i read blogs, etc. i often become disgusted. sometimes i can begin to understand why so many people don't want to be a "Christian" or show up at the local church.

"they will know they are Christians by their love for one another". indeed.

Anybody ever read Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death, especially the chaper Slouching Toward Bethlehem? It would be a good read in light of this discussion.

wow. a lot of comments. sorry if someone already said this (i didn't take the time to read all the comments) but i think what is missing from the equation is a look at how Jesus 'entertained' people. Yes, he shocked and awed many. Yes, he gave thousands an experience they would never forget and one that marked them. But what was it about his miracles, his healings, his words that so impacted these people that they were forever changed? One thing and one thing only: His love. If we want to shock and awe our culture today, let's first try loving them and see what happens.

After reading some of your posts I keep wondering what you are reacting to here. It is almost as if you are reacting to what you feel more than what you read. Perry did not say we compete with Hollywood, 24 or any other show. He did not say that he does not believe in discipleship. He did not say that he waters down the message, I have heard him and he doesn’t. He did say that he was passionately committed to reaching people.

Why is it that STARBUCKS cares more about selling coffee to our neighbors than we do about them going to hell? Why do they have a better plan and understand people more than the average pastor or church leader? Some of you might have said that the church in Jerusalem was a mile wide but an inch deep, they fought about who was going to get food, lied about giving, were absolutely racist against gentiles and measured their love for Christ by circumcision and diet. It takes time to make disciples. It takes commitment to make disciples and no one ever became a disciple without following first.

I will stop now because I have to go punch someone in the throat.

Perry,
What attracted people to Jesus wasn't how entertaining he was, nor with how he could turn a phrase to stick it to the man. Plenty of those were around that day, so there had to be something else about Jesus that drew the people to him.
What attracted people to Jesus was a very simple thing...he loved people.
He cared for people, and he showed it day after day.
He cared for their hurts, their fears, their worries, and at the end of the day they wanted to know how they could be like him.
They liked him because he gave them hope for something better, and more than what they were used too. His disciples healed people too, but it was their love that brought fellow Jew's to believe in Jesus.
Love will bring in the people, juggling balls, laughing clowns, Ooo-ahh technology...all of that can emphasize a sermon point, but love...love, Mr. Perry, is what will bring those people to Jesus, not the tech, the humor, or the fun-like atmosphere...only love will accomplish what you want to do.

I agree that church leaders can be lazy, we invest nothing but expect God to do great things. Church services should not be boring, it should be fun, fulfilling, meaningful and relevant - and above everything attendees should feel that they have connected with God and with others in someway. We should every means and method possible in worship and communicating in our gatherings - our services should be multi-sensual - I do not think that our creative expression of worship should not be limited to just film and technology but should encompass every form of art and creativity. In understanding this means that you do not need to have big budgets - most technology is cheap and easy to use - it is about utilising individuals gifts. THis means that we use all forms of creativity. I think every church should have a creative team/forum where ideas are discussed - this makes us as leaders also think about what we feel we should be teaching in advance and it structures what we teach, so that we are not just randomly jumping from topic to topic. Also we should encourage people to think outside the box and come up with wacky ideas - it is time for churches to be cutting edge. When you look back in history some of the greatest european architecture we see are cathedrals and churches - this was cutting edge stuff - multi-sensory - stain galss windows, statues, incense etc. We call our God the creator but isn't it a shame that our gatherings are sometimes so dull and christians some of the narrow minded, uncreative around???

I think the only thing I would say is that we need to be careful that we are not investing all of our time and energy into a small part of what the church is - we need to remember that our gatherings and services is not the church - the people are - and we should be thinking creatively and spending more energy in what we do the rest of the week to make a difference in our world.

I think the fervor of the protest and vitriolic attacks upon Perry (plus the childish pouncing on the "punch in the throat" comment) show that he's hit a nerve of jealousy and, perhaps, conviction. I think he has stepped on more than a few lazy toes. The modern, declining church is becoming quite talented at sitting back in its "spiritual" easy chair and "casting stones" at ministries whihc are actually reaching people successfully.

Sorry, but y'all sound like a bunch of little children, except for the few that actually didn't get defensive from reading the article.

Our problem is not "entertainment" per se, nor is it Hollywood, bowling, putt-putt golf, smoking, drinking, etc. It is not even those who are technologically challenged and cannot even turn on the projection system.

The fact of the matter is that far too many leaders (preachers) have gotten quite bored with prayer, fasting, and the ministry of the Word. This is the only thing that will usher a real revival back into our nation. We will never "entertain" ourselves into a valid move of the Spirit.

Gimmicks can never really restore the real anointing of the Holy Ghost.

There is no quesiton that Perry's heart for the lost is genuine. What is an issue to those that think and engage quesitons about the gospel and ecclesiology is a concern about the type of disciples being created. Are churches that seek to entertain creating disciples that experience transformation from the anti-gospel message of autonomous individualism in our culture? Are we creating disciples that transcend the destructive grip that the values of the American dream foist upon them? Or are we creating consumers that have a transformational 'peak' at surface-level, personal piety, with little crossover to acts of justice, mercy and compassion for the poor locally and globally? Are the values of the Kingdom transforming the subversive values of culture that have scripted us in the west?

I posted an articel that seeks to address issues of mega-church ecclesiology in our culture today that was a response to Perry's initial post. You can reach it by clicking the link on my name below, or via the following link:

http://towardshope.typepad.com/towards_hope/2006/12/quesitons_about.html

I am in nearly total agreement in deploring "spiritainment" as a worship form. The whole "dazzle them with lights" and "convert 'em while they're confused" mentality of so many churches is so patently wrong as to be practically inarguable. However, Jesus DID entertain the multitudes. We are told his healing ministry attracted thousands, and great multitudes followed him wherever he went. Jesus sure knew how to pack them in. Raise a dead man, restore some sight, all with free food. The crowds loved him. Remember that last trip to Yerushalayem, palm leaves and all. Not even Rick Warren gets that!

Then he had to go and start talking about sacrifice and commitment and all that "carrying your own cross" stuff and the crowds disappeared in a stampede and a cloud of dust. The crowds loved to be entertained, but when asked to ante up the commitment, it was "uh, no thanks Messiah."

As long as the mega-temples entertain the masses, the masses will get what they pay for, and the will pay for it indeed! Saddleback, Mar's Hill and Willow Hill didn't get where they were by preaching the kingdom of God. Who wants to pay to hear about sin and repentance and suffering and all that. Those temples have too much overhead to preach much of anything else. Look what happened to Jesus!

I'm betting it was kind of lonely on that cross, just Jesus and one convert...hanging right next to him.

I think one of the biggest issues for many of us here is the use of terms such as "childish", "lazy" and "jealous" to describe those of us to disagree with Perry on his approach to ministry. I know far too many pastors, including myself, who work very hard to study the Word and preach it in an engaging manner, who pray for their flock, who invest a great deal of time and effort into growing our church both in physically and spiritually, but yet our churches aren't 1000+ in membership. It is insulting to us and arrogant of you to assume that we are lazy as a result or we are "childish" to point out poorly worded statements made by a church leader.

There are many reasons a church can grow large - some of them are personality driven, some are ministry driven, etc. Just because you chruch is large doesn't mean you are doing everything right any more than having a small church means you are doing everything wrong (or are just lazy). I would imagine Perry's church has some people coming there for the right reasons, but I can't help but ask that if his philospohy of ministry is to entertain people, then isn't it likely that he is getting what he's after - people who just want to be entertained or have a cult-of-personality following for his particular preaching style. I don't think it is jealousy to ask those questions; it is rather part of the hard work of critically engaging what we as pastors do in light of our culture and Scripture.

To entertain or disciple--that is always the question. I am just a lowly Sunday School teacher in a small church but this was my experience.
After using Bible study material from popular teachers I had a class that was a few ladies who were pretty much hit or miss. Then God led me to just have them read the Bible through in a year. We just talked about what they read and what God showed them. In one year this class has grown to a room full of ladies who rarely miss Sunday School.
My point is.... whether the worship is contemporary or traditional, if the focus is topical study and competing with network television, Jesus is never going to be really lifted up. Preach the Word. It is what REALLY changes lifes.

Gosh, a tremendous amount of posts to this article and after reading some of the comments, I post with some fear and trembling! First of all, I want to affirm the article's main point which is that we, the spiritual leaders of the people of God charged with planning worship, should repent of our laziness and easy willingness to revert to "fill-in-the-blank" forms of worship. (Which, by the way, can happen in traditional, contemporary, emerging, or any other kind of worship human beings can devise.) I often get on my knees and ask God to forgive me for my reliance on the form rather than the heart of worship.

At the same time, I would take serious issue with the statement, "We are serious about making Jesus’ name famous...So, we are going to always do all we can to make sure that when a person attends our church on Sunday that it is one of the best hours of their week." The New Testament church did not make "Jesus' name famous" by seeking to compete with flashy rituals and liturgical rites of the mystery religions around them. They simply authentically followed Jesus. The "best hours" of their week were spent feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, visiting those in prison, and ministering to the least and lost of the world. They found fulfillment in giving themselves away, picking up their cross, and patiently enduring persecution. I would suggest that we take our cue from the Book of Acts rather than Hollywood as we seek to lift up the Name that is above every Name! To God be the glory!

Hello again! WOW...once again, great comments, just an observation or two...or three...

#1 - To someone who posted earlier...uh, what exactly is the problem with the mega-church? There is one in the second chapter of Acts. You say you are worried about their ecclesiology? Uh...I've worked in churches of all sizes...and it's not just the mega church that is messed up in their views of this type of theology...I would look at every church!

#2 - To the person who said I called them lazy because they are a small church. No my friend...I said that a church is lazy if they are not willing to work to reach people! AND...I stand by that statement...if a church can't reach people for Christ...it should close its doors...and I make no apology for that.

AND...while I am on that...to say that some people come to my church for the wrong reasons...dude, how dare you question the motives of people who attend my church. I ask you my brother...are the motives of all who attend your church pure & godly? I would not go there...not just with me...but anyone. To do so is a form of arrogance I feel it is not wise to embark upon.

#3 - To the person who said that Mars Hill, Willow, or Saddleback was not built upon preaching sacrifice & things of that nature...you are merely proving your ignorance. Have you ever listened to Hybels? Rob Bell? Warren? I have...and these guys BRING it when they come to sacrifice.

I am not mixing words here...I would dare you to show up at NewSpring and say we don't preach the full counsel of Scripture. We go to great lengths to make sure our people get correct doctrine in a way they can understand it. To say your brand of preaching is correct--dude, what the heck is that?

Sorry if I sound a little defensive here...but this thread is an excellent example of how Christians can take one comment or article that someone writes and then become self professed know it alls when it comes to another persons character and the way they lead their church.

I am not the perfect leader--and NewSpring is NOT the perfect church...GOD KNOWS THAT! But--we are trying--people are meeting Jesus...lives are being changed...marriages are being restored...people are getting out of debt...men & women are growing in their faith...like it or not--God is at work here.

Is that cocky? Nope--it's a fact. So--my advice is just keep doing what your doing...and we will stay on the path that God has called us to take. And when we get to heaven--we can rejoice together that people were reached!

Perry,

I'm glad to see you returned to comment on some of the things here on this thread. I saw this article originally on your blog, and I literally got out of my chair and yelled "bring it!" I'm so glad you said what needs to be said.

To those of you who think that NewSpring is seeker-sensitive, you really need to listen to Perry preach. He doesn't hold back one bit! I've never been more convicted than I was in the NewSpring auditorium.

To those who misunderstood Perry, and think that he said that the purpose of his church is to entertain, please go back and read his post again. He has always said that the main purpose of his church was to share Jesus with people! If his church is entertaining, so be it, but that's not his primary goal. He said he wanted people to LOOK FORWARD to church every week, more so than they do TV or sports or anything else. I can tell you from experience that I look forward to any opportunity I get to visit NewSpring, and since NewSpring's services are FIRMLY centered around Jesus, I consider it a good thing that so many people anticipate Sundays in Anderson.

To those of you who think that Perry was insulting your small church in his post, you need to realize that small churches have abilities too. I admit they are limited, but what Perry was trying to say is stop being depressed about your situation and put in some hard work! If you are already putting in the time and energy, THAT'S GREAT, but there are too many churches that are taking the "easy button" approach to church.

"Find a template and stick with it. After all, we're a small church and we'll never be able to compete with xyz, so why even try?"

Come on! You may not be able to afford big screens and a flashy website, but can you spend an extra hour per week developing relationships with area pastors? Are your sermons boring and worthless? Can you put in an extra couple of relevant illustrations into your message? Can you ask your piano player to step it up so it's not so dry? Can you plan services in advance, and are you willing to spend extra time preparing? Are you willing to theme your sermon series to make it easier for me to remember when I go home? Can you put an outline in my hand so I can meditate on things throughout the week?

There's not a church in American that can't use a little improvement somewhere. Why is yours an exception? What Perry is telling us is that IF we're being lazy, we need to get off our butts and realize that God expects us to contribute our fair share.

And finally, I want to echo something Perry mentioned. Hollywood and Nashville have a message for you. They don't mind one bit spending the necessary time and money to help you "get the message". The church should be willing to do whatever it takes to get our message in the ears of those same people. If we don't do it, Hollywood is more than willing to step in and do it for us. Get real people!!! This is reality, and the sooner we realize that, the sooner people will start being reached for Christ again.

Nathan
www.nathanrice.org

What was the last thing Jesus prayed for before he was arrested? (John 17:23) "May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

God has a plan and a purpose for all of us whether we're in a mini-church or a mega-church. He uses all things together for his good...even lazy people. Look at Mary and Martha!

My concern/burden for any pastor is that they don't get their priorities mixed up while they're doing "God's work." Like Martha, many leaders can become consumed with making everything just right, pour tons of time and energy into all the details, hurt a lot of people in their pursuit of excellence, and in the end miss the whole point.

I am speaking from experience. My father was a pastor. He poured his heart and soul into church work. In the process he neglected his family and just a year ago divorced my mother after 40 years (the last seven of which he spent living in sin with another woman). That's NOT unity my brothers. Be warned!!!!

I'm one who is suspicious of ultra-large churches because I do worry that their services become productions designed to entertain, impress, delight, even inspire--but not gatherings in which God's Spirit moves in the communion of saints. As I said, I'm suspicious. But to be fair, I can't dismiss the work of these large churches out of hand as totally worthless. It seems God is indeed using those churches for his purposes.

But neither is it fair to assume that leaders of churches with "boring" services are lazy. Perry, to say that you're on our team, but call into question the efforts of others, is demeaning. Maybe we are trying hard, but not trying to do the same thing you are trying to do.

Ultimately, though, I only know my own experience. And that experience leads me to the conviction that trying to being more entertaining than television is a fruitless endeavor. I don't want a more entertaining worship experience. I want a worship experience that is different from the entertainment the world throws at me. I really can't imagine trying to invite a friend or neighbor to church because "it's more entertaining than television."

I concede that my approach is probably not going to reach as many people as your approach, but I think you ought to consider that my approach will reach people like me, people who would never be fed, changed, or equipped in a mega-church.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day, " God save me from your followers."

I enjoyed reading the blogs in reference to this article and I'm excited watching God at work every minute of the day. I sleep, He doesn't.

I realy don't see much iron sharpening iron here as future plans are being put into concrete here, but that's OK. What I see is individuals having personal relationships with the Heavenly Father that they came to through Christ. We do learn what is by what isn't and what is is always the Life of Jesus Christ.

If I didn't see God as being all and in all, I would have to spend time criticizing on camp or the other; whereas, the word of God is being sowed in small churches, mega churches, movies, books and radio. Many are called but few are chosen still apears to count today.

I encourage every soul to press forward to the prize of his high calling in earnest. Use whatever resources available to coming to an end of yourself in lifting up Jesus since this is the work of God to believe on Him and He whom He hat sent.

Let us not fool ourselves... All things work to the good to them that Love God and are called according to His purpose. Sometimes the good gets a bit out of focus but it's His job to bring us back to the only good and that good is our relationship with Him.

Thank you for all the comments and excuse me while I get this Church dressed and ready for work.

Happy trails and tribulations.

I first heard Perry speak @ the Innovative Church Conference. At that time I had to stop and think about what he said. Since then I have read his blog regularly and listed to most of his messages. Perry Noble speaks from the BIBLE. I believe EVERYONE should do those 2 things before criticizing a sentence here and there in what he said.

Podcasting is wonderful. I also listen to messages from 3-4 other pastors as well. Learn what is being said by the leaders in our Church. Understand that numbers are important. Every 1 is a soul.

I attend a large (4600 members) church in metro-Atlanta, I get to hear a messasge from our pastors every week as well. Only 1500-1700 attend on Sundays. WHY??? I grew up in a small church (mother was organist for 20+ years). Size is not he problem, lack of creativity, preparedness, etc... is the problem. I strongly dislike having to sit through a traditional service. Our church has 2 traditional services and 1 contemporary service each week.

I believe in having a great experience at church every week. I also want everyone that attends to have a great experience. I want our Youth to come back every week so that we can pour ourselves into teaching them. Do you think they will come back if they are bored? If they have a great, exciting experience they (adults as well as Youth) will probably come back and hear more about Jesus and start studying his life and learn what he did to save them (and all of us). If they are not excited and/or intrigued they will not read the Bible, learn about Jesus or ultimately be saved. Is this the only way, NO!!! Is it a way that works to bring MANY people to Christ, yes.

Nate,

Let me suggest something. It may be true that you wouldn't get fed in a mega-church, but you should really go to Perry's Church's website and listen to some of his messages. His sermons are a 3-course meal of spiritual food. I think you'd be surprised and delighted.

Nathan
www.nathanrice.org

I want to speak as the one sitting in the pew. Having attended many different size churches and fast growing ones I have this to say: Pastors, please stick with feeding THE SHEEP. Yes, do the work of an evangelist as Paul told Timothy, but FEED THE SHEEP. That is the job of the Pastor. We need to be fed on Sundays, and to worship our God corporately, to be equipped to go and tell the nations. And to tell our neighbors.

The apostles devoted themselves to prayer and the ministering of the Word. The "mega church" that was created early in Acts did what?--they constantly devoted themselves to the Apostles teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. I KNOW big churches that brought in this entertainment and out went the preaching of the Word. And the pastors-- due to sin. Gone was the expositional teaching of the Word to the sheep. It all became one big evangelistic meeting.

That isn't what brings people to Jesus. It is the praying with the neighbor when their husband is in a wreck, bringing meals to the laid up sinner down the street, giving the local retail clerk rides to her chemo--for free! and staying with her through the whole thing. But you know what really works? Giving them the Word! Check it out, read Psalm 19:7-11. The Word converts the soul! God bless you Pastors who feed their sheep every blessed Sunday. And who teach us to feed on the Word ourselves during the week. And besides, with all these millions that attend mega churches, this country is in poor shape morally. I think the best commentary I heard on Warren's PD book was "If you want tares in your church, this is the best way to get them in there." Unfortunately I don't know who said it.

When Jesus fed the crowds (only twice that we know about) he later told them--the crowds--that they are only following Him because He gave them fleshly food. Do we want our churches filled with people who only come because we are filling their fleshly needs? "Bad company corrupts good morals".

Are you only to evangelize the young? My mother died at 86. She entered the family of God at 85. ( A Pastor going door to door led her to Christ after he used us kids to break up the ground) Do you think she would want to sit through all that noise you call a worship service? And just WHO are all those tares worshipping anyway? Should we be worshipping with them?

I have heard this "If it's boring, it's sin" statement recently in a church I attended for about a year. At one of the meetings, the pastor and several leaders did a Beatles opening (wigs and all), and then he came out in full military garb as the "plan" was unveiled--which of course also had the obligatory pledge drive. Later activities concentrated on more arm-twisting to fund the new ultra high tech auditorium, complete with a mini-Disney-type kids area.

While these tactics surely please people, and are sure to help bring in the cash, they are non-arguably about the comfort and entertainment of those in attendance. Contrast all of this self-centeredness with the early disciples sharing with each OTHER as they had NEED. They did not set out to build entertainment centers for their own comfort. Buildings and entertainment do not add one real CONVERT to the body. It is the power of the Holy Spirit to save men from hell and sin (not what we call the gospel today) that filled the early church, and what we must preach today.

We do not need any more of the world in the church. We do not need the universal spirituality and motivational cheerleading that has replaced the gospel. We need the Holy Spirit to purify us with His fire. Forget the gimics and pray.

Noble: I don't question your zeal. Nor do I question the fact the God is at work in your church. I believe He is. But you haven't really grappled with the questions about consumerism, the nature of TV entertainment media and technology in your responses here.

So here are few point blank questions I'd like to hear thoughtful responses to: Explain why, in the case of your church, the medium is not the message when it comes to using media to create experiences. And, does your team think about and discuss media epistemology; and if so, how does it impact your creative process?

You seem to believe that the Church has to compete with TV entertainment for people's attention. Some detractors posting here disagree, so it may help if you make a reasonable argument for why you think that is necessary, and how you are able to do it without allowing entertainment media to subvert the message.

Also, I'd like to hear your responses to Bill Kinnon, who quotes Will Willmon in the first comment post--because I don't think you've addressed those comments directly either.

What we're worried about is not that you don't "bring" people biblical teaching, but that the message is being delivered and consumed in a way that unavoidably alters its meaning. These are the tough questions of consumerism and media that deserve a cogent response from a ministry practitioner that claims to be so successful.

After much of this post is done and I read every single response, some a few times, I must say that I am embarrassed. I am embarrassed by the nitpicking some of you will do over a phrase that was intended as a joke. I am embarrassed by the attitude of self righteous scorn you communicate when it is obvious you were responding to feelings not words. Several people attributed to Perry saying we need to compete when he did not. He said we need to learn. Perry, myself and I would assume everyone here believes we have something in our friendship with Christ that is far better than 24 or American Idol. Our job is to learn from their example of striving to impact people (for a buck) when we have something more powerful and valuable that they have to offer. I think the question is valid, why do they work harder to reach people than the church does? I did not see anyone respond to that question.

Perry did not say his goal was to entertain either, he said his goal was to speak the Gospel in the language of the culture. To work as hard as Hollywood in its effort to reach people, to build a church that wants to make Jesus name famous, to give people an experience that causes them to want to look forward to church. This is not wrong, this is not sin and it is not hiding a light under a bush as many churches and Christians do today.

Many churches are losing the culture war not because we have lights and bands but because most pastors do not get the culture they live within. They simply do not understand the language the culture around them speaks and so they keep speaking this amazingly timeless message in a differently language. I traveled to India recently. What if I spoke the Gospel there in English, using American terms, illustrations and slang. Who in Kashmir would get that? What If I did this and then blamed the beautiful people of Kashmir for not understanding a different language? That is what is happening in the church today. We are speaking a different language than our culture and then blaming the culture. Or what if I went to India and learned the language? I spoke it fluently and in doing so saw thousands of people come to know Christ. Then when I returned home I was criticized by people who said, silly pastor; the bible is supposed to only be spoken in KJV English. Shame on you for adapting to the culture, shame on you for reaching people in their language. You must have compromised the Gospel for the sake of the language. You must want it to be easy and only shallow decisions were made. Shame on you pastor for entertaining and working hard to know the language of the Indian people. Shame on you pastor for not making the Indian people learn your language to show their real desire for Jesus. That is what it feels like reading many of your responses here. Frankly, it is embarrassing.

It's easy to dismiss the "medium is the message" warning as being culturally irrelevant. But inevitably the presentation drives the content. McLuhan and Postman dealt with this; so did Howard Snyder in "The Problem of Wineskins"--a book all Christian leaders need to read. At the same time, Perry is right that Christian leaders are lazy. We are often spiritually undisciplined; we speak over the heads of our people; we ignore them during the work week. We do not clearly tell our (and Christ's) vision to them or involve them all in ministry at some level. These are generalizations because some of you are doing all these things quite well; but most pastors are not.

If giving them an experience of Christ means anything, it means showing them the empowering Holy Spirit Who makes us all able to live up to Jesus Christ Himself. We know we are successful not from Sunday responses but from work-a-day faithfulness. If we can find a way to measure this, then we'll know how well we're really doing.

Where have I been! I'm glad I found this blog, I've been tossing around most of the stuff written here and can't agree more.

I think most of the folk think that we should try to entertain "like" lost and "24" and missing the point that church should be as interesting as any sitcom. Edgy, thats why the mixed feelings.

Jesus did a LOT of edgy things that other pastors at that time did not agree with. Jesus "competed" with the magicians, other local gods and he did more powerful things.

What a bunch of whining! The style or form of service/ worship is irrevelant. What fruit is produced is the proper question. I have never heard an unbeliever critize a particular style of worship, but many times have heard them identify the unethical and immoral behavior of "churchgoers". Good fruit is always attractive.

From an Enrichment Journal Article:

"On nearly all relevant quality factors, larger churches compare disfavorably with smaller ones."1 Christian Schwarz came to this startling conclusion after the most comprehensive study of church growth ever conducted, covering over 1,000 churches on 6 continents. The research and observations of others, along with my experience, confirm its validity.

In spite of fewer people, staff, facilities, resources, and programs, the average small church produces:

* better fellowship.
* better pastoral care.
* better discipleship.
* more involvement in ministry.
* more persons called into Christian service.
* more spiritual harvest."

(full article available at http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200104/044_sm_church_better.cfm )

It is clear that according to the modernist definition of "successful ministry" Pastor Perry Noble is very successful. However, our call is to be successful according to our Lord's definition. Try as I might, I simply cannot find any Biblical instruction whatsoever along the lines of "thou shalt not be boring". I do see a calling to preach the gospel and make disciples, something that is never hindered by the resources of money and talent available or by any church's ability to provide their attendee's with their most entertaining experience of the week.

I agree with pastor Noble that our members should look forward to church more than watching 24 or American Idol; however the reason why so few do has as much to do with the worldly attitude and un-crucified carnality that characterizes so many Churchgoers today as it has to do with supposed pastoral laziness.

If all the attention that Pastor Noble so proudly puts into the entertainment value of his church services is helping his church to succeed in preaching the gospel and making disciples, then more power to him. However, the studies carried out be Christian Schawrz strongly imply that production values are all that his church does better than the small struggling churches that he treats with such open contempt.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

I read the article by Perry Noble, Senior Pastor of NewSpring Church in Anderson, South Carolina with a great deal of interest. I agreed with him.
This morning I went back into that article and was surprised to read all the criticism that was aimed at that poor man. The comments made were certainly from people who have been Christians for many years and seem satisfied with their old methods. Churches should reach out to the unsaved. They are competing with TV and often are losing the battle.
I began attending classes given by Creative Ministries 30 ago and have used puppets, drama, chalk talks, humor and clowning as a means to teach kids in church and to put on shows for adults too. I didn't have the money to pay for these things so I got books from the library and taught myself those things to keep kids interest. Many of my former students (who still go to chuch) have told me how much they appreciated those things.
God created laughter. Proverbs says "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine" and that's true. Jesus sat on the side of the hill to tell his listeners about the "Lillies of the field" and the birds who do not gather food, and how His Father in Heaven loves even the insignificant sparrow.

In the Orthodox Church we use the same Liturgical service every Sunday, and I can honestly say I am far from bored with it. There is more meaning found in it than I could ever hope to find in some "entertainment experience". Why? Because it has lasted for centuries (and the Church has remained intact and unchanged for two millennia). Because the Church, as established by Christ, is timeless. It does not have to conform to the passing fads of the world. And it will remain so- because it holds the Truth. Not because it's flashy and "fun"- the path we are called to take as Christians can hardly be called that. We'd be deceiving ourselves.
I am not saying that other churches are wrong- I do not know where else God has bestowed his grace. But I do know this: you don't need lights and mirrors to attract people- only the Truth. Because it will remain the same as it has through eternity when all else falls away.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7116.asp

I am a 'Johnny come Lately" to this post but after reading the article and the numerous responses I have a few random questions and comments of my own.

Whose choice was it to include the jpg of the Clown? The Rev Noble's or the editors at CT?

The same applies to the link from the front page "Is Your Worship Service a Circus?

All of these factors as well as the "Throat throttle" comment helped contribute to a bad case of "Bad Blog Syndrome" BSS for short

Perhaps you should have considered the primary target audience of this article... Evangelical Christians. Some of us feel left out in churches like this.

Are we using the wrong terminology here? Shouldn't we be using words such as "meaningful" and "transforming" in stead of entertaining? (Not that I think that this is not part of your vocabulary)

Why do so many evangelical leaders use the concern for the lost as a justification for their innovative methods? As if they are saying "How dare you question us, we just want to reach the unsaved!"

Are numbers the only way or predominate way to measure success?

What qualifies as boring? Liturgical worship? Blended Worship? The quiet setting of a Quaker prayer meeting? Non-Seeker Services? Expository preaching? ????

Can we conclude that there are many formats and models of "doing church" including Contemporary, Traditional, Seeker and Blended and ok ok ok maybe even Emerging instead of cryptically implying that it must only be contemporary in format in order to be relevant?

We this be another issue that divides Evangelicals into a thousand more pieces?

I too believe in exerience. I believe people must experience Jesus Christ in our church services, through worship, Through His Word and through fellowship with other believers. However my question for the Pastor is...

If Jesus Shows up and says "I am going to be checking out your people in their private lives to find out if you have been equipping them, To find out if you have been giving them what it takes to do the work of the ministry". What will He find? Then again thats probably a good question for a lot of our churches in America.

These churches need to realize that maybe the lost people of the world are looking for something DIFFERENT. Maybe such people have come to see that the answer is not in consumerism, quick fixes, or whatever false hopes that society throws at us. In this way, Christianity should be set apart. It should be IN this world, but not OF this world. It is sad to see that so many churches, in attempt to become accessible, forget that the real reason for many coming to Christianity is because it holds something that the world does not, because (not although) it is different.
Maybe the solution is found in historic Christianity, not in any new experiments that are made up today to make up for a weak foundation. The question is whether people will write it (this historic Christianity) off as outdated, even though is has withstood the test of Time, because they do not want to admit they were wrong in the first place.
Forgive me if I have said anything out of place.

"Why? Because it has lasted for centuries (and the Church has remained intact and unchanged for two millennia)."

Actually, it is the culture that has remained relatively unchanged for the past two millennia. But, in the last 50 years, the culture has drastically changed and it hasn't all been bad. What isn't bad, the church can take advantage of. The last thing a person wants is to think that their religion is not currently relevant, and pastors who delivers sermons that are boring and useless are doing a great disservice to their congregation. Liturgical services are nice in a bubble, but in the real world, they are hard to integrate. Not so with Perry's church.

"however the reason why so few do has as much to do with the worldly attitude and un-crucified carnality that characterizes so many Churchgoers today as it has to do with supposed pastoral laziness."

True, but Perry was speaking directly to pastors. The last thing a pastor needs to do is throw up his hands and say "if only these people were spiritual enough, then we'd have a good church". Come on!!! The pastor is accountable ONLY for what HE does. He can deliver relevant, insightful, corrective sermons, an environment where worship is easily achieved, and challenges for people to grow and become better christians. He can't MAKE anyone do anything. This was Perry's point to pastors...DO YOUR PART and quit whining about the people...it's YOUR responsibility to do everything YOU can to guide the people. He's doing a great job of holding up the mirror to all the pastors out there. If you're doing right, GREAT!!! If you're not, get it together man!!!

Nathan
www.nathanrice.org

I am the worship leader at a Pentecostal Holiness Church where we average about 80 people on any given Sunday morning. We are mainly contemporary-worshipping church on Sunday mornings, but when Sunday nights roll around, the 14 people who actually show up are almost exclusively over 60 years of age and I sing hymns. Not the worship team, just me and the pianist and the bassist. That's it. They congregation doesn't sing. I sing. They don't participate, they spectate. Now, which service do you think I look forward to all week long? Probably the one that actually involves people getting involved.

Our Sunday morning service reaches so many more people. They are younger, busier, have a lot of demands made on them and their time.
I do not blame a lack of discipleship for their not attending Sunday nights (they turn out heavy on our mid-week meeting night, too), so don't even go there-these people love the Lord.

My dad pastors a congregation in Southern Maryland whose ages are very diverse. They have totally eliminated Sunday night services because of the schedules people have to keep.

Do you see where I'm going? The "American Church" has to make some serious adjustments if we are going to remain RELEVANT. This is the Western Church, not China or India. If you spent one week in Kenya working with missionaries you would understand, this country runs on its own unique time table. We are an over-worked, over-stressed, over-whelmed society. We are so ambitious and driven.

Nothing wrong with that, but what do we have to offer a society that is experiencing all of this? Precious Memories and Farther Along are not going to be as meaningful to the 35 year old mother of three who has a household to run and a presentation due on Monday morning at the office, not to mention PTA at 730 that night and a husband who cannot find his own shoes in the closet. Who can fault her for enjoying "All Things are Possible" or, "How Great is Our God"?
Her kids probably love the interactive Children's program and the pre-worship fellowship in the Family Life Center that involves donuts, juice and occasionally a little pre-Sunday School basketball.

I'm not saying escapism and entertainment is for ALL attendees, but I am saying, KEEP IT REAL! Keep it real for EVERYONE. Jesus has been keeping it real to a innumerable amount of people for a long time, and He is the one who empowers us for our calling.

Let Him do what He needs to do. Whatever that may be for whomever is in need of it..

All of this, of course, IMHO

Blessings to you all!

Jennifer In Galax, VA

Matthew 28:19 commands us to "go and make disciples of all nations". How are we doing this with only 75 or 80 people, the same ones that were there last year? How are we doing this if we do not speak the "language" of those we must communicate with? Yes, you may send some dollars to missionaries, but what about the family next door? What are YOU personally doing for the Glory of Christ pastor, leader, Sunday school teacher, pew sitter? But don't get mad at me for asking, for Jesus will be asking that same question. I do not need your answer, but He will. Are you putting it all on the line? Are you swimming upstream?

Perhaps I am biased, as I actually attend Perry's church (NewSpring), and I have never attended a service where the Gospel was not preached at the speed of light, with passion and intensity! Yes, growth is in the thousands, but the people who have been attending since 1999 are also growing significantly. Family problems are being resolved, children WANT to go to church, lives are being changed. Is that happening in your church?

I stumbled across this post as I was blog-surfing (is that what you call it?), and I would like to comment as a member of NewSpring Church.

I first began checking out NewSpring in 2001 after being invited by a very enthusiastic attender. I had been a Christian for only 1 year, and was discouraged at the lack of churches out there that seemed REAL to me, i.e. not just dressing up in a suit/dress on Sunday morning and calling everyone "brother" or "sister" so-and-so. I knew many of these people from work and school, and they sure did a 180 on Sunday. The watered down, wimpy Jesus served up in the sermons didn't seem much like the One I had met only a year ago, and I was hesitant to place myself in a ministry that was a major turn-off for me so recently, and for many of my friends that were lost.

When I began attending NewSpring, they were renting an auditorium at a local college. There was a small band, a few lights, and Perry. Not the huge mega-show all of you are criticizing in this post. I was not drawn to the "show", because there wasn't one. I came back because for the first time in my life, I heard a pastor speak with truth, relevance, and without fear of his congregation. I heard the voice of God more clearly through Perry than any other speaker I've ever heard. I was caught up in the Holy Spirit as the music played, and I knew the words to sing to God because I'd heard them on the radio. I was greeted, fed, seated, and challenged by some of the most sincere people I'd ever met. That's what brought me back, and the story is true of my friends that also attend NewSpring today. I got involved by volunteering in the Children's Ministry (I was impressed that they HAD one) and I was amazed at the commitment of the small few who volunteered there each Sunday. We are reaching kids for Christ in a creative, relevant way when most churches let them sit in an adult service asleep or wreaking havoc so that the few adults who are actually listening are distracted by their behavior!

NewSpring has grown big, built a building, added new lights, sound, and other creative elements, but the experience is the same as their beginnings - TRUTH is spoken, WORSHIP is open to everyone, and LIVES ARE CHANGED. That's why creativity and entertainment are important. They draw lost people to a place where they can meet Jesus and fall in love with Him. I leave NewSpring each week not feeling empty after a "cool show", but CHALLENGED and SET ON FIRE to live my life for Jesus Christ each day. I am 100% behind Perry because he has the guts to stand up for truth and not be afraid of the critics who are happy in their "holy huddles". It does not take MONEY to create an experience, only an open door for God to reach people.

I'm also a member of NewSpring, and I enjoy the services every week. But there is something missing from the sermons when it comes to the discipleship of Christians.

My wife and I have been members there for almost 2 years. She enjoys the services immensely and looks forward to attending every week. But here is the problem. While I cannot say for sure because only Jesus knows the heart, I do not believe that my wife is saved.

She enjoys going to NewSpring, and highly recommends it to everyone. But she has absolutely no interest in the things of God outside of that one Sunday morning service. She's not interested in reading the Bible, listening to other sermons, watching any Christian broadcasts, or doing anything else to try to grow in the word. And when we aren't around other churchgoers, she does not exhibit any beliefs, attitudes, or behaviors that you might expect from a Christian. And I don't believe that it is a matter of her just being an immature Christian, because she does not seem to have changed in either her attitudes, beliefs, or behaviors since her "conversion".

My problem is, how can she sit under Biblical teaching every week for almost 2 years and yet never realize that she is not the Christian she claims to be? Maybe because the teaching is always focused either on people who know they are lost, or on "saved" people who want to improve their marriages, families, finances, etc.

I'm not saying that NewSpring doesn't preach the true Word of God, because I absolutely believe they do. I'm just saying that "saving" people cannot be the only goal. It doesn't matter if you baptise 1000 people a year if the conversions aren't real. And we can't know if they are real because we never learn what the Bible says about how a real Christians should look, or think, or feel, or behave.

I continue to go to NewSpring because my wife will go there, when she won't go anywhere else. And I continue to pray that someday the Holy Spirit will use one of Perry's messages to speak to her. But for myself, I get my feeding of the word through podcasts by John MacArthur, Lon Solomon, and Greg Koukl so that I can hopefully grow more and more like Jesus every day. I just wonder how many other people at NewSpring are in the same boat as I am.

"Today I sat in a room for two hours as our creative team talked about the next several Sundays." - I think is the 2 hours was spent interceeding for the people and the meeting itself, it would have truely been "the greatest show on earth". Do you really think that people are going to stick around for a show in any enduring way. Do you want a crowd or disciples? True that "laziness" can be attributed to many a sloppy church service, but more of the hard work should be in prayer and intercession, not JUST in creative planning. Hillsong is one great example where I've seen both done in balance, fantastic church service and experience, yet truely quite often deep spirituality. Yet, they fully pack a church just for a prayer meeting and not the worship service. Seriously, why is such a writer given this role as a UR contirbutor? Do the editors of this website have any quality benchmark before posting a contribution?