How prophetic is it that these ultra-super-grossly rich people are giving a fraction of their money to help the oppressed?

It's a good start, however. Hopefully it is an inspiration to everybody else to up the ante...maybe move from the standard 2% of giving to 10%.

Or maybe more evangelical Americans ought to move to Asia or Africa or South America. Not as missionaries. But as servants with an orthodox, vibrant theology and vast stores of skills, social capital, and schooling. Be good neighbors, do life-style evangelism with people dying of starvation, of dysentary, of dirty water. Maybe that is the kind of prophetic next step for evangelicals.

Great thoughts on these three happenings!

In reverse order.

1. Pat Robertson should be banned from television, but then again he fits in with the un-"reality" television that goes on. I wonder if he thinks he could be one of the millions to fall at this "sudden" disaster. Gordon you make a great point that many of our loudest "church voices" (joel osteen, et.al.) have an incoherent and false hermeneutic of Scripture.

2. God will and is using Bono, Oprah and the like to expose the lack of justice and righteousness (cf. Amos 5) oozing from the commodified, accommodated, acculturated church in America. This does not mean God is abandoning his church, it just means there are many "associations" which call themselves church but are more in bed with the beast of the empire.

It's amazing when the biggest Rock star (Bono) in the world, when invited to address the Presidential "Prayer" breakfast has the audacity (Jesus like) to invoke Leviticus, Isaiah and Jesus' call to ministry in Luke 4! I've observed other ----Driven (eh, hem) "pastors" who used...well I forgot if they actually read any Scripture . . . certainly not in a manner that confronts the "Christian empire".

3. I don't know too much about Gerald Ford, but I like what I hear of his wife and her straightforwardness and Mr. Ford's sticking by her said and supporting her.

INTO THE SUBVERSION

This reminds me of the verse where Jesus says to the religious leaders that the prostitutes and tax collectors will enter the Kingdom before them.

Hmmmm...

A stinging but true indictment of modern American evangelicalism. Thank you for your boldness and your honesty.

Jesus' words in Mt. 7, that not everyone who "prophecies" or says "Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, are ringing in my head. 2 interpretive/application thoughts:

1. We (contemporary American evangelicals) say that Jesus is Lord, but we do not enter the kingdom of heaven, nor do we work to make it a reality for the world in which we live. We think the kingdom consists of Sunday morning services and Wednesday night youth groups, but we miss God's kingdom, which consists of offering a helping hand, a cup of water, and a visit to the sick and dying.

2. Perhaps we could read ourselves into Mt. 7:23, hearing Jesus say, "[You thought you knew me, but] I never knew you."

Thanks again for the strong word.

It seems that Pat Robertson is solidly in the same camp as those Christians who have signed on to the "Evangelical Climate Initiative." Those who lament global warming are making prophetic dire predictions about the future with no specifics as to where or when. The only difference between the two seems to be that Robertson is ever so slightly more specific. You've got to give him credit for getting on the bandwagon, even if he's only hanging onto the tailgate.

I've been saying this for a long time: Much of the world is doing the work that Christians have been called to do but have instead abdicated.

Brilliant!

Let's be careful that we don't confuse the issues here.

Pat Robertson does not, by any stretch of the imagination, represent any significant group within Christianity. And even though we may not be giving billions of dollars (can we really measure ministry in $$$), there remain thousands upon thousands of faithful churches and millions of believers out here in our culture doing the ministry and "getting the job done."

I can's speak for all of you ... but in my little corner of evangelicalism the peopel of God are serving their fellow man faithfully and generously.
http://geoffbaggett.wordpress.com

Speaking on self-proclaimed prophets in the news: I find it sad that we have allowed individuals caught up in their own narcissism to become those who represent Christians to the world. These individuals worship at the feet of their own sincerity. They appear devoted to their own devotions and see themselves as indispensable to our world. The prophecy that if certain goals aren't met, the punishment for the rest of us is that they will be sacrificed. They prophecy a future without any specifics and expect us to accept their ambiguous claims. If one prophecy fails, are we not mandated to stone them? Should we not remove them from their position at the very least?
For such leaders, their desperate desire for approval and validation underlies all they do, and we love to have it so. I am deeply ashamed that we have allowed such emotionally immature and dependent persons to rise to such prominence. Perhaps we fear being intolerant. Worse yet, do we tolerate dysfunctional behavior because we ourselves are lesser expressions of them? Are they our poster children? Do we overvalue them so we can later devalue them and find ourselves somehow superior to them? Perhaps we do not want to confront their splinter because we like the wood, the grain, the rich color of our beam?
All of the people mentioned in the blog overcame various levels of adversity. Interestingly, one chose political power, one chose popular power and one chose pulpit power. There could be a sermon outline in there somewhere!
Thanks for the insights.

I was incredibly moved by the Ford funeral.

I drove into the parking lot of a strip mall that has a coffee shop with free internet that I regularly visit. And I wound up sitting in my car for an hour listening to the ceremony at the National Cathedral. Kissinger spoke, Tom Brokaw spoke, W spoke, and then the Reverend gave a sermon. The whole nation listening, watching; Christian scripture being read - it was quite a moment. No pluralism in sight.

I never really thought much about Ford - maybe because Watergate happened when I was thirteen or fourteen, and I was just a teenage Mark Farner wannabe with raging hormones... Anyway, the sum of the eulogies was that Ford was good, and kind, and solid, and dependable, and compassionate, and honest.

I thought of how he wasn't elected - he was just the best man moved into the job that everybody and nobody wanted - how he just did what was RIGHT. And at his death, the whole country responded to him.

I always thought he had an asterisk next to his presidency... sorta like Roger Maris. I totally missed the boat on him. I was very much humbled.

Not to be sacreligious, but I think Jesus would have been a lot like Ford if he had come to earth in 20th century America. Same qualities.

I'm serious. Stop laughing.

God has used foreign nations and "other" people before...Balaam, a donkey, Nebuchadnezzar...to accomplish His will. It sounds just like God to use someone else if his people won't obey.

Geoff...actually Pat Robertson does represent the religious right and many in the baby boomer and pre-baby boomer generation. Why do you think his ministry takes in over a hundred million each year? You'd be suprised how many "Christians" are thorougly influenced by televangelists and talking heads like Robertson.

The scarry thing is how many cannot discern between their message and real gospel say a John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Rob Bell or the like. One seeks publicity the others seek to faitfully teach and lead in real communities of faith.

Pat Robertson is he the same guy who said someone should be assassinated recently or was that someone else? You have so many "looney tunes" in the good old USA, it's hard to keep track of them all. I have no problems with people with lots of money doing good deeds - in times past it was known as "noblesse oblige", i.e.those of a higher social station as it was then had an obligation to use their wealth to help the poor and disadvantaged. Long may it continue! I seem to remember a scripture that says that if a prophet prophesies and it doesn't come to pass that he should be put to death - of course that was the Israelites. Robertson is a false prophet - he's prophesied incorrectly on a number of occasions - and should be denounced as such.

The thing to remember about Pat Robertson is that he is an old man.
He said crazy stuff when he was young but now bordering on senility, he is dangerous.
The people who love him should turn off his mic.
Old tv preachers never die they just get crazier

Melody: I wouldn’t compare Pat Robertson’s errant prophesies to the Evangelical Climate Initiative. I’m an Evangelical Christian who has been working in the environmental research and consulting field for 30 years (yes there are a few of us). Just because the trends in climate change still hold uncertainties does not mean that mankind cannot adversely impact God’s Creation. We do, and we Christians should be better stewards of that Creation. For the most part, God chooses not to give us a perfect window into the future. We don’t know where or when the next deadly tornado will strike but that doesn’t mean the good folks of Kansas should be filling in their underground shelters. That would be foolishness, ala Pat Robertson.

I've posted on Pat Robertson at least twice on my blog, and neither post was favorable. I would not label his faith particularly "orthodox," but then what constitutes "orthodox" varies depending on who is defining it.

Gerald Ford had consistent character. He was also Episcopalian, I believe. Oprah seems to have a heart to help people. Good for her. Mr. Robertson...well, I guess he likes attention.

In the biblical descriptions of the judgment I can't help but notice, especially in Matthew 25, how the emphasis is on help extended to those in need, rather than on whom you have believed. This isn't to say that personal faith is not necessary, but lets not discount the acts of good done by those surprised, at the end of time, that they had done these things for Jesus.

Pat Robertson is an absolute buffoon, and Oprah Winfrey has very little of substance to offer anyone, and who has any idea about Ford.

However, the standard set by this article would disqualify virtually every prophet of Israel who pronounced judgment on God's people for their disobedience. There is very little in the prophets that is positive.

A more biblical approach would recognize that that the greatest weakness in the evangelical church is not in addressing social justice, but in addressing sin. We don't do it. We care more for the sensibilities of people than the holiness of God.

To borrow from Christ, these are things we should have done, and not have left the other undone.

Truth is important. If you have no problem with Oprah Winfrey who constantly makes proclaimations which run counter to Biblical revelation, then you shouldn't have a problem with Pat Roberstson whose ministry has far outstripped her efforts in reaching out to those in need.

If you want to denounce Pat for the areas where he departs from the rest of the church, then be as honest and denounce Oprah for her rejection of sound theology and the authority of scripture as well.

As for the amounts given by whom, the recenly published book Who Really Cares? shows that people of faith out-give everyone else at every economic level. Perhaps it is time that we stop our hypercritical examination of others in the church. Sure, there are many who need to come up to the measure and tithe- are you one of them? How about going beyond that?

We all are willing to give to the "deserving" poor, but how many of us have been pen pals with a guy in prison for rape or conversed happily with a homeless drunk who hollered out "Merry Christmas!" on the subway, or given a prostitue a birthday party at midnight?

Giving to God and giving to those in need goes beyond monetary measurements. "And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

I see a lot of love lacking in the responses above and too much willingness to attack and judge the people of God. Remember, Jesus told us to give in secret- there is more going on than you realize or may ever know.

I guess all of you criticizing Pat Robertson have never watched his show. If you did you would have found the 700 Club lifted you up in your faith and encouraged you. The most committed critics of a person are those who will listen to him to him least.

Futher you would have found that Pat's ministry meets serious individual needs around the world all year.

Sorry but I can't resist reminding you of what I believe one person above tried to say: If you give even a cup of water in My name - note - note in the name of humanity or any other name. Giving alone does not cut it; we must ask who's name the giver seeks to glorify.

Thank you, SG, for your comments. There was something so wrong about the logic of this article and the early comments, but I was having a hard time putting it into words.

I’m putting aside the issue of Pat Robertson, who I think most people believe is a nut case and Christian leaders should be lining up to find this man some help and/or declare publicly that he is “taking the name of the Lord in vain” with his incredulous prophecies. Having said that, and this is just hearsay, but I do believe his organization has contributed considerable funds to those in need. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Now, onto Bono, Oprah and Bill Gates. I'm reminded of the verse, “To whom much is given, much is required,” and the story of the widow’s mite – those who gave huge chunks of money where people could see them and be impressed by them, and the widow who quietly gave all that she had. I am very impressed by Bill Gates. If he has ulterior motives for being philanthropic, other than seeing people in need, understanding his responsibility, and setting an example for his children, I am not aware of it. I do not know the condition of his soul, but he gives exponentially more than (just about) anyone else. Oprah and Bono are both very generous and motivating, but in proportion to what they have, they give pennies. And both of them seem to really like giving away other peoples’ money. Remember the new cars Oprah gave her studio audience – donated by the cars' manufacturer – not Oprah - and then all the recipients had to pay gift tax on the cars? The gesture certainly made the news but it cost Oprah nothing. Bono wants our tax money to go to Africa (and that would be an excellent use for it), while he has moved his millions/billions out of Ireland so he doesn’t have to pay taxes. I’m glad that Oprah and Bono give, because, notwithstanding what I said above, people are being helped, and I wish that others in similar situations would follow suit. I’m also convinced that Bono is motivated by God. But I’m not starstruck like Gordon seems to be. OK, maybe a little bit with Bono (I am, after all, a woman). People like Bono and Oprah don’t have to decide whether to give to a homeless man on the street or buy their child medicine, or whether to give food to a hungry man and then go hungry. They can do both and then go home to their mansions, their penthouses, or their yachts.

Your title reached out and caught my attention. A great one! However, not sure I totally agree on your final conclusion.

I do think it's a shame that he world's celebrities and money people show more concern and compassion over the world's social needs than we in the church.

I think God is pleased with the fact that needs are being met, however it in no way affects the eternal salvation of the celebrity.

“One of the first things a Christian should get used to is abuse... To do nothing is to get abused for laziness, and to do anything is to get abused for not doing something else... A traveler must make up his mind to go on regardless of the insects that make his trip miserable... One thing is certain, a Christian's standing before God does not depend upon his standing before men.” (Tozer on Christian Leadership, December 7).

What ever happened to love one another? What I read above is filled with such vitriolicWhat ever happened to love one another? What I read above is filled with such vitriolic sentiment as to be unworthy of followers of Jesus. I don’t know any more about PR’s “word” than what is written above, but lacking above is any effort at understanding or considered analysis. Yet so many of you feel perfectly able to separate the sheep from the goats. I have pretty much tired of this blog for that very reason. Whether the posts are from the left or right, there is amply pontificating and little real thought or dialogue.

This post really made me think. I remember that day that he talked about.

I agree with one of the comments in that it talks about how much publicity celebs get for their giving.

Remember, these celebs make millions and billions. So to give one billion dollars... when your actual net worth is $44 billion and you give $2 billion to your buddy Bill Gates... do the math... that is a fraction.

Then you have people that each week are giving 10% of their gross pay to local churches. They give much more [by %] than Oprah, Bono, Bill or Warren do on a monthly basis. You see they all have communications gurus that are paid to contact all the media outlets to put this whole thing on display.

I still believe that the local church is God's vehicle for completing His mission. Whether it is making disciples, taking care of the poor, etc. The only problem is that of what a typical church receives... they only give a fraction [if any] to taking care of the poor, the widows and orphans [aka single moms and their kids of today], the oppressed... the church in America is much like Israel in Amos 5. If you look at the various reports that are out there on church expenditures... churches spend the most money in the order: facilities, technology, missions [where most money for the poor is classified and goes local and around the world]. There is a saying that you can see your priorities by your checkbook... and your calendar. Where is the church's priorities?

Many people in the evangelical camp [of which I am a part of] give NONE to the poor... and more to their polictical parties.

Also, Pat Robertson needs to go in a whole somewhere... the best thing he can do is to keep his mouth shut. Enough said [till he opens his moth again!]

I still can't get over this uncharitable attitude towards Pat Robertson. Have you ever listened to him? REALLY listened to him?

Perhaps the unspeakable disaster Pat Robertson spoke of was abortion, which takes the lives of millions of Americans every year.

Daniel, I think we make our comments about Pat Robertson because we HAVE really listened to him. I realize that whether or not Christians should criticize others who call themselves Christians is a touchy subject; however, Christian leaders really dropped the ball by not going after Fred Phelps earlier than they did. They let him get away with his bad theology and and worse actions for years before someone timidly said, Maybe we should say we don't agree with Fred Phelps. By that time a lot of damage was doing to the name of Christ. Pat Robertson is no Fred Phelps, but I do think Christian leaders should rally themselves and say, Pat Robertson doesn't speak for us. In fact, we think he is a false prophet. Unless, of course, they agree with him, and then we're really in trouble.

I appreciate, Alison, and clearly false prophesy is distressing. However everyone has their shortcomings. I don't think his falling short in this area makes him any less of a christian. I have my failings, and if that is all anyone used to judge me then I clearly would not appear to anyone to be a christian.

Nonetheless Pat espouses orthodox and very sound theology. One would not go wrong spending time watching his show, browsing through the 700 Club website etc. I know, because I have, and his show has been an immense help in my Christian walk.

Clearly some comments above should not be made about Pat Robertson. They should not come from one Christian to another. And to attempt to purport - even in the slightest - that Oprah represents Christianity better than Pat Robertson does - that's clearly very wrong.

Remember God has made it clear in his word that he looks at the heart - not at what people see.

Thanks.

I keep seeing PR is 'orthodox Christianity'. However, and I have watched him on and off for years. He isn't. He is Kingdom Age theology. He believes that we will usher in Christ and bring about the new Earth. Seriously, if you delve into his teachings, he IS a false prophet. Of course, too many people have no idea what these teachers on the air believe. He sounds good--but don't most cult leaders and false prophets? But underneath stinks.

To the world however, they don't distinguish. Anyone by the name of Christian or American must be a Christian.

Back to Gordon's question at the top: I think the question is wrong; the question should not be what real Christian behaviour looks like, but who a real Christian is, and that's something you need the Spirit to see. Else, as the Christ told us, there's a time when the tares will be removed from the wheat.

It does seem to me, in my humble opinion, that suggesting Robertson is a buffoon or false prophet and that we should, instead, model our lives, as Christians, after Ophrah and Bono is pretty wacky!

I don't have cable TV so I never see Robertson but he is the favorite punching bag these days of commentators and the "intelligensia" of the Christian world.

Beware the intelligensia!

Just saying...

Thanks JB, I was worried that no one else found that particular juxtaposition wrong. Else it is particularly worrying, is it not, that Gordon and CT appear to tell us that Pat, who reminds us of the grace of the Christ, our need for Jesus, is in any way a worse example for us than Oprah, the modern world's high priestess of relativism, humanism, mysticism, who denies the authority of scripture, who tells the gays that they're not wrong. How could that comparison have been made in the first place? Pat encourages and builds my faith; Oprah preaches to too many people that ethics and morals are relative. Pat is a defender of (I believe he also prays for) your country; was (I believe) a marine in the Korean war; and he was compared to Oprah! It is outrageous.