Now that was interesting. Kudos to Shane!

Could we slow a second before equating "mega-churches" with Wal-Mart and Microsoft? There are as many types of "mega-churches" as there are "micro-churches," and there is very little that you can assume about a church - or a corporation, for that matter - based purely upon its size.

Hey Mike: I didn't get from Shane's comments that he was making a strict comparison between Walmart/Micrososft and all Megachurches in the sense of saying there was a direct analogy between the two in all respects.

Instead, I took him to mean that Walmart & Microsoft are dominant market leaders within their respective markets because they offer goods and services in such a way as to make them attractive to huge numbers of people. Most megachurches I am familiar with do this as well. I'm not making a value judgment about that; I just see it as a fact.

Perhaps I'm missing something though. What was your concern with the analogy drawn between mega-companies and mega-churches?

Wow. I truly believe that the youth who are unchurched will rebel by seeking out religion that their parents neglected to give them.

I also believe that the mega church movement is a trend that we will look back on in shame. It is a cheapened version of Christianity that is man-centered, wordly and lacks discipline.

The youth are seeking counter-cultural holiness--not a church that blends in with the world.

Look at what is happening in the Catholic church today --there is a demand for the Tridentine Latin Mass --a return to the mystery and holiness that once was. These masses are filled with young converts who are fervent in their faith. The Pope will be soon releasing a motu proprio that will permit its widespread use once again.

I really enjoyed Shane's book. I think he has miss characterized the emerging movement. I've heard some call the emerging movement a "new-anabaptism."

Also, if you look at trends in Europe, its quite possible that mega-churches will end becoming museums like the Abbys of England. Or maybe people will become too busy for a slick 50 minute service. There are baby-boomers already leaving mega-churches and doing simple church. Why? Because they get that they don't need some sage on a stage whom they don't know.

Or we may see a trend of certain mega-churches that have teachers who dig deep into Scritpure yet refuse to call Sunday morning church and always point to a network of housechurches.

After Christendom a 1 hour Sunday morning service is NOT church, not if you don't have a community you go into the world with during the week.

I think the real question in regard to any church is whether they are reaching people with the gospel and helping them grow deeper in a relationship with Jesus. That can happen in churches of all sizes and styles. We need to get past visceral reactions and generalizations when it comes to evaluating both mega and emerging models of ministry. While we may not want to embrace the tactics of all mega churches or emerging churches, I believe Jesus is at work in both models.

Thanks to Shane for a thought provoking article.

If one is anti-megachurch, then at what point should one stop incoming visitors, prospective members, and evangelistic campaigns with a simple, "Sorry, we are big enough as it is. You cannot join us"?

Michael Rew: Haha, nice.

You're right, of course. Mega-churches are mega because they're big. They may have got that way by attracting people through the gospel taught and applied well. They may have got there through canny use of sound sociological principles and principles of market dynamics. Either way, they're big because they brought it a lot of people and a lot of people decided to stick around.

Which poses a conumbrum for anti-big-church folk. Doesn't the anti-big-church argument boil down to saying, at least in part, there is something holy and desirable about large numbers of people not coming to a given church and sticking around? Is that biblically defensible? "We don't want you to visit and we don't want you to stay... otherwise we might grow into what we despise."

Haha... I meant "conundrum." I should type slower.

We should leave it up to God determine the size of a church, that was the NT pattern.

I'm confused. Not a surprise. But, when I read the beginning of the article, it seems that Shane is a proponent of mega-churches and their consumer-driven agendas. Then, in the last part of the interview, he is asked, "What is the answer?" To which he shows us that Jesus was incarnational, counter-cultural, and yet privately contemplative and devotional. Does any of this sound like mega-church to you? It seems antithetical to mega-church as I know it.

I think Shane's answer is spot-on. Indeed, if we are to be incarnational, then we should integrate ourselves into society in ways that really matter to the heart and soul of mankind--in ways that really resonate with the masses, that speak to their true spiritual needs, not to their sensual and/or market-driven preconceptions of what pop-culture convinces them they need.

To be countercultural is to resist the temptation to build congregations by appealing to society by way of pop-culture-dictated fads and marketing ploys the way the mega-churches do.

To be able to reach people the way Jesus reached them requires a lot of quiet solitude and prayer to keep us in balance and from buying into the shallow lures of popular culture.

Yep, I agree with Shane. That seems like the answer to me too. From what I can see of this generation of Jesus followers, seekers, and not-yet Jesus followers, this 3 fold description of the life of Christ Shane talks about is the very thing that resonates with them. True, there is the Mega-church crowd that fills the pews and subsidizes these lavish worship-complexes, but do they mirror Christlike discipleship? I hope not.

Phil - many folks who critique the megachurch model argue that, rather than continuing to attract more members, a growing church should instead look to plant other churches, reproducing itself as needed. The concern is, I think, that at some point the church simply becomes too large to function as a local body, and thus loses something of its witness.

Working for a large business for nearly 28 years, I have found a stricking similarity between it and the denominational church.

As with a swimmer, my company has freestyled until it got tired, then it did the backstoke until it got tired, then the breaststroke, then the butterfly back to freestyle. As soon as it started to sink due to external pressures... the stroke changed to see what happened.

Do we, as individuals, who collectively experience salvation truly become saints when encopassed within 4 walls on a certain day?. Is the Life of God fragmented into days, weeks or seconds?.

Salvation is the unfolding in His finished work. If the widow gives all she has or the rich man all He has... is it not the same heart? We live in exciting times, and Jesus still knows the thoughts of men.

Let us rejoice in His ongoing work, for consumerism and every other ism has the role of bringing every knee and every tounge to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I think real issue isnt mega-church vs community church vs emerging, vs traditional vs attractional, vs missional. to me the sad reality lies in the 'vs' --the divisive labels that have been here even before Jesus and that we use to separate ourselves from each other and thus our God.

Yet I don't think it is something that grows out of church style or size, but rather out of the concept that church is a place you go and a limiting doctrine rather than a minute to minute living, changing and growing relationship with God, Jesus and neighbor.

p.s. I am in the process of starting a micro church... just for me :)

It's not about consumerism. It's about churches having no spirtual food to offer.

The void has to be filled with consumerism, church entertainment, programs, and leadership that is void of spiritual discernment.

Young people are looking for God, they leave the church because He is not in these gimmicks and trends and leadership structures.

http://my.opera.com/Boanerges/blog/

There are over 400,000 churches in the united states. Of those, 6,000 are over 1,000 in attendance. Of those 750 are over 2,000 and of those 20 are over 10,000. One of the myths of the mega Church is that there are more than actually exist. When we speak of the mega church we too often speak as if it is the norm in the kingdom. Truth is the mega church person and the small church person really show very little difference in they way they serve, give, love God or consume spiritual goods.

Smaller churches are just as filled with consumers, it is just that smaller churches make it sound more spiritual. We go here because the parking is easier, because we are more connected to the pastor, because we like the size, because... Still consumerism, just packaged in different words.

I believe: Our branding is just repackaging. Megachurch, emergent, communal, small church, modern, post modern simply appeal to different niches and too often to make our niche more apealing we trash talk the others.

Hey ScottB. I totally understand that concern. I know of large churches that handle that problem poorly and the people who are part of the church are largely disconnected from one another.

Other large churches handle the size issue well, creating a church of congregations, if you will, where pastoral care is provided and distributed carefully through creation of smaller subsets of people who enjoy and benefit from large scale ministries while being active participants in smaller scale ministries.

This kind of church has its analogy in the biblical model of shepherding where an extremely large herd would be overseen by a shepherd, but would be internally divided into units under the immediate care of a group of undershepherds.

Now, I'm not saying big is the only way to go. I'm just saying it's not necessarily a bad way to go.

Good words LeoSkeo. I don't think consumerism is intrinsically bad. We give we receive. We receive, we give. etc. It's all a part of the sharing in the Kingdom of God. We are blessed and we bless. It is a great mystery to me why God blesses some with a lot of money and some a little. He alone is wise and knows the answer. Same goes with Small Church vs. Mega-church.

Exactly, Leo. Way too many people (especially in my generation) talk about the church solely in "me" or "I" terms: "That teaching pastor doesn't reach me". "The small group ministry doesn't offer me very many choices". "I don't like the way we do worship". The list of complaints goes on and on, and it's all a part of the narcissistic mindset (think: it's all about me) that lies at the heart of the consumerism that defines our culture. Thus, when we feel our little ego needs aren't being met adequately, we will church hop until we find something that does, regardless of what kind of church it is, or we will merely sit around and criticize, without offering suggestions on how to remedy the problem we perceive.
I think the key is really to listen to God and what He tells you as you deal with a church that you feel isn't meeting your needs. You're part of the body of Christ not to consume resoures, but to share them. Regardless of what kind of church setting you're in, the question isn't "What can I get out of this", but "What can I put into this, to glorify God, and build up the body of Christ?" When we ask that question, and sincerely seek Him for its answer, we'll somehow find our needs met in ways we never imagined.

Michael, your comment of starting a micro church... just for me:). Could be disturbing for some as much as Jesus's words " many are called but few are chosen." would be.

The micro church is always the personal relationship in the temple of the heart, with the ever present Living Father/God, that Jesus our Lord came to proclaim in the Flesh and to disclose our worth to Him. The Mega Church which has lasted throughout the centuries was built with the micro church.

This is the relationship that Jesus spoke to Saul about when He said " Saul, Saul, why does thou persecute me. "Faith without works is dead " the apostle said and some believe that a relationship with Faith Himself will not bring out goodness for goodness is measured by appearance.

I thank God for every believing heart and all hearts believe since they are of the image of God. Thank God that, as with us, salvation is big enough to keep everyone as a concern. What I find that it is not amazing to others that I love God but that God Loves me.

Let us leave the offices of church to the ones that get paid for it, and trust that their heart is reapping salvation's call to obedience to and in Faith by the same measure their obedience is proclaimed from their pulpit.

If a pastor is only as good as his church, then surely a church is as good as their pastor. If a king is only as good as his kingdom... then surely a kingdom is only as good as their king.

May our hearts echo in the small church and the big church, inside and outside, the most wonderful words of our most wonderful Shepherd " It is finished."

A very honest article. We're consumers, we are. We may be different consumers, but we're consumers none the less.

The PC / Mac commercials make this point. One consumer may be trendy another one nerdy. One consumer may be more valued than another, but at the end of the day consumerism and materialism have been imprinted on our identity as Americans. Maybe even as Christians.

I don't think that the mega church is going away, because it connects with this consumer identity. Consumer identity is a reality even though it's not Biblical. But there's a small group who will choose real spiritual community over spiritual consumption. That's the difficult choice that I am trying make. It's definitely counter culture, but not counter Christian.

Shane's right. We're all consumers. The question becomes whether we remain only that, or rather consumers with another agenda than simply consuming what and how we're told.
If you've not seen Adam Freeland's video, "We want your soul"-- go over to YouTube and look it up. Sobering.
In the face of that we have the witness of scripture. I Peter 2:9-10...
"But you are a called out community, called out to be the highest order of priests, called out to be a culture of holiness, called out to be the people who are God’s own possession– you who were no people of any kind, but now are God’s own people, you on whom no one showed any mercy, but now have been showered by God’s mercy. God has called you to all of this so you can proclaim the virtues of the One who has called you from darkness into God’s own amazing light."
And Romans 2:12
“Don’t let your lives be structured any longer according to the patterns of this age. Instead, be transformed– let your mind be constantly under God’s renovation. Do that, and you can figure out what God’s will is, what is good, what is well-pleasing, what is complete.”
Consumerism actively and radically structures our minds. There's no escape from that unless we're simultaneously constantly under God's renovation. I think that can happen in many sizes of Christian community-- but if the organizing principle of any Christian community is ultimately consumerism, then no matter its size, it can't help us live into the holiness for which God has prepared us.

God knows we are consumers...God created us to be consumers. We always need more of His wisdom, his love. "Come to me all who are thirsty.." "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." We are created with the desire to "consume" more of Him!

Evil can be defined as Godly desires pursued in ways God did not intend. Living water can be served in many different ways, and a church is godly as long as they seek to love their neighbor by their presentation of Jesus. Do I enjoy what I consider cheap, gimmicky sermon series like those titled "Grace's Anatomy", no! But some people are reached by it. Other churches are intensely theological, to a fault, but still love. None of us are perfect...more we should seek to present Jesus as Good, Gracious God and Savior; we should preach the gospel so that some may be saved.

When will we stop being so reactionary against cultural trends? We need to stop seeing ourselves as culturally relevant or counter-cultural and begin developing Godly cultures within our churches. This may at times, in places, and to certain people look either like cultural synchronism or counter-cultural. Let us move TO something rather than merely avoiding what we consider wrong.

This is a really valuable interview snippet. I believe that the implications of Shane's point about counter- and anti-consumers is being misunderstood by many of the responses, however. If I can generalize, Christians are awful about tossing around "consumer/ism" as a pejorative without bothering to define what we mean by it.

For example, there's not a special link between megachurches and consumerism. No, consumerism is the dominant ideology of identity construction in our society, such that we understand and create who we are through what we consume/buy. (It is thus quite different from materialism or simple greed.) The entrenchment of consumerism is demonstrated by the very anti-consumers that try to shake it off; even they can't help but be determined by their (attempt to avoid) consumption.

Two additional lines of thought (at least) seem worthy of consideration. The first is to ask why consumerism would be so dominant in our time and place--what are the historical/social/theological causes? The second is to ask how the church un/wittingly buys into the phenomenon. As for the latter, it seems to me that technique-based thinking (Simple vs. Mega Church, to take one example) will never free us from consumerism's snares any more than competing visions of the Law (i.e., Sadduceeism vs. Pharisaism) were going to lead to righteousness. Sure, there are lots of problems with the ways we do things, but consumerism in the church goes to the heart of the very gospel that we preach and the Lord who we follow.

Forgive the self-promotion, but I've got a book out in the next couple of weeks on precisely these topics, so I mention it here for any who might be interested--Brand Jesus: Christianity in a Consumerist Age, at http://glassdarkly.net.

Finally, while I appreciate the insights at the end of the interview, I think the interpretive mode of trying to extrapolate the secrets of Jesus' technique (i.e., he was about relevance/resistance/distance) has the unfortunate effect of subsuming salvation history in paradigms of management theory, which seems quite dangerous.

I attend a mega-church. We started out with 150 people nad grew to over 6000 because we PRAYED and didn't turn anyone away! Is the worship like a concert, YES, but Jesus is there. Is there technology all around, YES, but Jesus is there smiling down on us. Does my pastor wear jeans and hawaiian shirts, YES, but he speaks BIBLICAL TRUTH (yes, from a bible) every week. WHY are we a mega-church, because we PRAYED and God answered.

Not intending to be argumentative, but really, for every 6000 member church that prayed and didn't turn anyone away, there has to be at least a thousand that followed the exact same formula and had to eventually close their doors because there wasn't enough people to pay the bills.

I'm not saying that a church with 6000 members is worthless, but if the only thing that stands out is the fact that the pastor speaks Biblical truth every week, there is certainly something amiss. I know some big churches that are doing a lot of good, but I know a much larger number of big churches who bow at the altar of Narcissus.

Narcissus is alive and well in most churches and denominations, mega or micro. The reality is that mega churches are merely more visible and thus make bigger cultural waves. A mega good church can do all that much more good than a micro-church because they have more financial and personal resources. But a bad one, obviously can degrade Christ's name all the more thoroughly as well.

Living in the city of Chicago, there are more burnt out pastors and congregations merely persisting in a perpetual Narcissistic naval-gauge than I can count...they're must micro and therefore go unnoticed. People are people everywhere...I find faithless people going to my small church plant of 100 people just as I do in my former mega-church of 3000. Just as in the case of rich/poor black/white and all other ridiculous debates, we need think as Jesus does: righteous/unrighteous. You never know how big the churches are in Revelation that Jesus judges...you just know their hearts and actions. And just as today, there are more crappy local churches that upright ones...but Jesus loves his crazy crack-whore of a wife, and so should we.

I'm concerned about the anti-consumerists who withdraw from church life altogether. It seems like the writings of Brian McLaren and George Barna (inadvertently) feed this--presenting a picture of an idealistic church which doesn't exist in most communities. Unable to find, as consumers, this ideal church, and convinced that every other church in their area falls short, they withdraw and don't go anywhere. Has anyone else seen this, or am I just occupying a sheltered little cosmic niche?

I can't imagine living and thriving as a Christian life apart from my highly flawed local fellowship.

Consumerism is seeping into our the minds of our young children in a lot of ways that are more subtle, and which parents have little control over. I was appalled by my trip to what I call the Corporaquarium (Georgia Aquarium) this weekend. Why is Home Depot advertising to toddlers? The wonderful book "Consumed: How Markets Corrupt Children, Infantilize Adults, and Swallow Citizens Whole" explains why.

This is probably the great moral issue of our day, IMHO.