Excellent point here. The old, hard core religious right is crumbling and againg. The new religious right is actually showing some life, I think, but they are not necessarily viewed as "right" by the rest of the right.

What I like is when Rick Warren can mingle with Barak Obama and work on similar problems ***abortion*** without having to "agree with me or get out." This kind of thing is progress.

I believe strongly that Christians must engage in the culture. That includes politics. We have to inform ourselves. And we have to vote.

But I get really nervous when either side justifies any political argument by suggesting their platform is God's will for his kingdom. I don't care whether I'm talking about abortion or war or gay marriage or taking care of the poor, it feels obscene and blasphemous to use God as an endorserment for my political beliefs.

I take the process seriously, sure. I engage in debate, sure. But after I cast my vote, I thank God that he is in charge of building his kingdom and not me. The United States of America certainly contains part of God's kingdom, but we would be foolish and arrogant to hold onto the Puritan belief that our country is a city on a hill.

Once again Brian makes some excellent points.

1.) I have also found it to be true that certain people will resist change- to the nth degree. They do so because they have been indoctrinated into thinking that to be open to change is equivalent to being "tossed to and fro", "lukewarm", etc...

2.) Absolutely true that a certain population of Christians are more aligned with a political party, or a political conceptual framework, than they are with the fullness of the Body of Christ.

3.) I think it is ESSENTIAL that those of us who recognize these things, and who don't subscribe absolutely to red or blue, liberal or conservative labels, to reach across the spectrum and actively seek community with others.

I like the analogy of family. We may not always agree with family- but this doesn't erradicate our genetic ties. I think the ties of Spirit are even stronger. And we should act accordingly; recognizing that we are connected in Christ before we are connected to the Republic, to a political party, to a contemporary political agenda, etc.

This article intro, interview, and comments so far sound like they're hunting for Falwell bashers. I'm not a fan of much of Falwall's ministry because I have issues with the whole institutionalized form of church life, but his impact on helping believers to open their mouths and engage in action instead of being mutes and paralized saints in pews is VERY stratetic for Christ's kingdom. Also his ability to determin who on the left is open to dialogue versus who merely wants to smuze to get Christian votes and march towards hell leaves Rick Warren looking naive and clueless. Why are saints afraid of or offended by being a messenger of a polarizing gospel that calls those who are in the dark to come to the light, who are blind to come to see? It's part of Satan's deception to smooth over and grey the differences so we can "all come together as one and like each other just the way we are." This is a bad substitute for what it means to "love your enemies, bless those who curse you...".

McLaren is advocating a double standard. On the one hand he claims of Christian conservatism that "It’s become a sort of ideology that has been absolutized and equated with gospel in their minds." Is he suggesting that the religious left, advocates of UN goals, socialist approaches to a myriad of issues, peace at all costs, do not have an ideology that they equate with "the values of Jesus?" Do the democrats tolerate diversity on their view of "reproductive health"?

But the kicker is this: He wants to "...help the Republican Party reflect more and more the values of Jesus" as if HE knows which political values Jesus would espouse, doing EXACTLY the thing he says the right may not do. Translated, it is not enough to care about the poor, racism, peace, equality, you must support a particular political approach to solving those problems or you will be accused of not following Jesus and craving power like those nasty right wingers. Like the tag team of presidential hopefuls and Jim Wallis' "debate" don't crave power?

Why is it that it is wrong for Christian conservatives to advocate a political position as the "equated with gospel" but not for him to suggest that he knows which "values of Jesus" both Republicans and Democrats ought to bow to?

And for the record, it is the left, not the right, that marches in absolute lock step on an issue like abortion or the war in Iraq. Ideology? Values of Jesus? Give me a break. Check your scales Mr. McLaren, they seem a bit out of balance.

Dan, did I miss something? Or did McLaren actually say more than you suggest?

What I would hope is that people who are in the Republican Party who are followers of Jesus would use every bit of their energy and power to help the Republican Party reflect more and more the values of Jesus. And that Democrats who follow Jesus would do everything in their power to help the Democratic party do the same thing more and more.

But then again, it's possible I've misunderstood both Brian and Dan. Either way, I find what Brian says here very helpful.

I suggest that one would look on the flag the next time that they pledge allegiance to it and look at the red as the Blood of Christ, the white His Purity, the blue His Majesty. And that, by the ample and sufficient Grace of God, we go on in His on going completed journey to have every color remind us of His Love for mankind. Then by His work may we be transformed into seeing Him as in ... "If you have done it to the least of these, you have done it unto me."

We should look upon (by Faith) any so called "set back" as a underlined victory in Christ no matter what it appears as unless we are not willing to pay the price of being "Set Apart."

The battle has been won and now we are going through the stages of that fact being proved so that the scriptures may be fulfilled in that " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

As we mature in His Grace and Pleasure, we find that the vessel that we are... our gender, nationality and abilities are at His service to express salvation. Our only polarization is the cross of God as we realize all else is temporary. No service or action is worth a hill of beans without complimenting Life and all exists to compliment Him.

Our entire existence speaks of who we are and who we are not, and the baptism in water symbolizes an essence of reality that seems to be greatly overlooked. If God didn't create us for fellowship ( always at present) what's the point?

I do not believe that Brian's commentary is useful for the average American Christian. It is Church (with a capital C) Leadership that is even more polarized than the body and quite honestly, even more impotent than the body they supposedly lead. Here is a couple hard core questions for "church leadership". What exactly do we do about the over million aborted children a year? This is shed blood on our land and on our hands. "reaching across the aisle" does not resuce perishing children or stop the murder. So what will? Do you really believe God is just "okay" with the murder of helpless children? So far-the Christian right and the Catholic Church are the only voices speaking out. What leadership do you bring to this issue in our country? At least Jerry Falwell knew it was murder and wasn't afraid to say so. So what about immigration? Is it okay that my neighbor came here illegally, doesn't pay taxes, uses our school, our clinics, our roads, our utilities-all without paying taxes? Isn't that just plain old stealing? Is it really okay in God's eyes that public schools teach that homosexuality, premaritial sex, and living together are all optional sex choices? Does the Bible really teach that is "okay" to teach our children that?
Those questions and comments are a little harsh even for me but the point remains-what exactly does Church Leadership bring to the body that allows a Christian to live as light in the world, bringing love as well as truth, the Gospel and how do we do that in the country? How doe we live that does not compromise and at that same time, brings people to the heart of Jesus and His love for them? The Christian in the pew is struggling-the desire to love God and serve and strong in the Church but the how to live in this country at this time is one of the church's challenges. Election time is always tense for believers and leadership is lacking. Personally, I thank God for Jerry Falwell. I amy not be a Southern Baptist but I respect his leadership at tackling tough issues even if I didn't like his methods.

Brian says,

"My big concern is that with the collapse of the religious right there isn’t a mature and responsible Christian response that will fill the gap in a constructive way.

I'd beg to differ. The Religious Right was merely the most vocal and most dramatic Christian political voice for the last few decades. Groups like The Center for Public Justice have offered excellent engagement with politics for some time. It is now time for these other groups to rise up to prominence.

Here are the problems McLaren will not face any more than Falwell did:

1. Politicians gain power by appealing to the broadest spectrum of people. Jesus took precisely the opposite approach and even made popularity a sign that you just might be wrong.

2. A constitutionally secular republic will only be able to take from religion what is civic in nature. Christianity is not civic but spiritual. When it is politicized, it is gutted.

I am just about ready to admit that the Anabaptists were right. If our allegiance is to Christ rather than to parties, then perhaps we should stop dallying with parties and get to the real work of transforming people. We are the Church of the Risen Lord; we can do what Republicans and Democrats can only dream of. Let's get together and leave 'em in the dust.

There is always an illicit temptation, especially in a long-standing and long-proven republic like ours, to believe that it is our "Christian duty" to pick a political party... for whatever reason. But we must remember: Jesus wouldn't vote. He wouldn't campaign. He wouldn't debate. And not because those things are bad--but because He is King. Kings don't need to do any of those things. Kings rule.

And Jesus the King rules already, apart from how we voted (or didn't). Again, not that voting is irrelevant in and of itself, and not that we are released from this responsibility to participate politically... but let's make sure that our political responsibility remains in its rightful position: below the life that is lived in obedience to King Jesus, reflected first and foremost in relationships and venues that are not at all political.

Why does Brian Maclaren say he sees no mature Christian alternative? Jim Wallis of Sojourners has worked on political issues from a mature Christian perspective for decades. Doesn't this count?

Hmmm. Brian Mclaren as usual provides good grist for the mill. From my perspective, it all comes down to handling power. Are the Christian right or left seeking to gain power, give it away, or use it to serve?

Jesus was the ultimate example of one who gave power away. I see many public Christians today seeking to gain power for a supposed justified ends, but it makes be very uncomfortable. Part of Jerry Falwell's way of gaining power was using controversy and name calling and it made me cringe as a fellow believer. Yes, Jesus called Herod a fox (perhaps a clever play on words) but he saved his strongest rhetoric for religious leaders.

Are our public leaders seeking power or giving it away? That's my filter for examining what they are doing. Frankly, I thank God for the Billy Grahams and Rick Warrens of this world who, from what I can tell, seem to be using power to serve.

As a non-American I look at the church and its involvement in politics in America and shake my head. Politics is all about power, the Kingdom of God is all about loving "the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbour as yourself". No political party can possibly match the agenda of God. We only have to look at history to see what happens to the church when they trade the gospel of love for the seduction of secular power. It didn't work then and doesn't work now - the church becomes the whore of the state. Because it has traded its inheritance for a "mess of pottage" and is unable then to speak out against some of the things that the secular power sees as their right. The church in America has been used and abused by politicians and it's about time they woke up.

I'm glad someone mentioned Jim Wallis, who is the religious left version of Jerry Falwell. His movement is becoming, if it isn't already, as ugly as the religious right. Neither bring glory to God. Having gotten that off my chest, you all have made some very good, very thoughtful comments.

I'm no fan of Brian McClaren, and often I find myself on the opposite side of his thinking, but he does raise some excellent points of which I must concede are important for the church at large.

"And I’m also concerned that the religious right will have left such a bad taste in the mouth of both the political world and the culture at large that there will be a reaction against any expression of faith in the public sphere. So this to me is a danger, but we have to do what we can."

Right now a good many people are ready to start feeding the Religious Right, and by association anyone professing faith in Jesus Christ, to the lions...starting yesterday. It will not take the news media, and by virtue of mounting suspicion, the American people long to find out about the Dominionists agenda...and so I fear...backlash.
Falwell, Dobson, Roberston, and the AEI are all associated with the dominionists movement, and when the dots are connected, and they will be, what are we, Christ followers going to say to a nation whose sons and daughters went to war, were killed, maimed, or scarred because of these peoples advice? What are we going to say when we're accused by association of seeking to overthrow the constitution because of the Religious Rights support of all things Republican?
Yes, we need to have this conversation now.

In this long list of comments, I think Trisha is the only one who gets it. While Brian and all the rest of you debate political parties and power, Trisha brings up the real issues that Christians should be speaking out about, particularly the issue of infanticide.

While I generally like what Brian has said in his other articles, what he and those who don't like the religious right don't get is the fact that these Christians have chosen to stand on the issues, not the political parties. The affiliation with one political party or another is a result of which political leaders support the issues, not what issues are supported by the politicians.

I'm not naive; we all know politicians are looking for votes. But Christians should be looking for votes too. We should be looking for politicians who will vote along biblically responsible lines. And if those votes come from the Republican party, so be it.

At the recent Democratic presidential candidates debate on Faith and Politics (a CNN program) Joel Hunter, Sr. Pastor at Northland in Florida, challenged Senator Clinton on her views on abortion. Although Joel is an Evangelical Christian leader, he is a far cry from a Conservative Right Wing Republican. (Read his book "Right Wing, Wrong Bird") He and others like him are the new leaders in the Christian political movement that may truly transcend party politics and begin to turn this country around.

These articles are the reason why I cancelled my CT subscription. I do not find
the articles and comments, the pressure to
prove "I am right" and the constant debate, does not, in any way help me to walk closer to the Lord Jesus. I don't believe that abortion should have ever become a poltical game. I try to vote (only 2 choices) for the candidate I believe
has character and will support the laws of
the U.S.

Personally, I feel completly left out of the political process. There only seems to be room for the ultra-left-wing, ultra liberal Democratic socialists or the ultra right wing ultra conservative Republican fascists. If you are any where in the middle, you are considered to be a traitor to the USA, and the right wing Christian also considors you a traitor to God. It's time to start to work towards a policy that both sides can agree on something or anything. It seems to me that BOTH SIDES should practice what Jesus Christ said,LOVE THY NEIGHBOR. But I doubt that will happen because both sides believe that IT'S MY WAY OR NO WAY, and that the only thing that will happen is what happens on the TV shows, everybody screaming at each other at the same time and the viewer cannot figure out what anybody is saying.

The one thing that I hope we as evangelicals never lose sight of is the importance of abortion and life issues. There are over a million babies that are killed every year. This must be our top priority. Imagine being in WWII Germany and saying that we can work with Hitler on issues we agree with him on! Sometimes you have to be devisive.

Also, we are so close on abortion. If we get one or two more strongly pro-life supreme court judges (which could be done -by electing one more pro-life pres), Roe v. Wade could be overturned.

We must care about the war, environment, the poor and all the other things that we do but we can't lose site of the biggest. You can't stand in the middle of a holocaust and encourage recycling. Abortion is the killing of the voiceless in huge numbers and so far only Christians have been voices in thier defence.

Don't stop caring for them.

I have to agree with Chris about Jim Wallis. When I was listening to Air America radio, the far left hate filled radio station, they went on their usual vicious attack of Christians but then ended their attack by exempting Jim Wallis. Why was this? Because Wallis has that same type of contempt towards many Christians as the God haters do and he strenthens their position politically.

Your own scripture tells you how to have a society "Pleasing to God" in no uncertain terms:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.
Deut 6:5

and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Luke 10:27

Couple that with:

He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
Amos 6:8

and you have a ready-made recipe for a society, secular or sectarian, that is pleasing in the sight of God. The Christians among the founders of the United States knew these things, why do our present-day religious and civil leaders not know them now?

The failure of the leaders of the evangelical denominations to live up to those instructions drove me out of the Church.

The cynicism with which the neo-cons falsely pander to the Religious Right drove me out of the Republican Party.

Tim and some other posters are pleased Falwell & Dobson's conservative political organizations are "engaged in action" and politics. My experience is you can not usher in the Kingdom of God by electing a so called conservative. As a matter of fact, some of the candidates they tacitly endorsed and campaigned for have turned out to be very evil. There are convicted child molesters in prison, spouse abusers, drug abusers, drunk drivers who've maimed, convicted tax evaders, and the list goes on. Putting your faith in fallable political candidates instead of Jesus is a big mistake. Many of them know the code words and phrases you want to hear to gain your vote. Don't idolize the candidate!

I find it sad that Christians have come to believe that the way to serve and please God is to vote for right party. Politicans tell us they believe in God and use some of our own catch phrases to convince us and we flock to the voting booths convinced that this one must surely be "God's man of the hour." Our job is to work to bring people to Jesus so that He can change their hearts. Only a knowledge of Jesus and a changed heart will truly change the individual and also the world. Sadly, rather than the church changing the political process, politics has changed the church and caused us to look anything but like the Body of Christ.