the article somehow gives me a creepy feeling about the whole idea of tithing electronically

in Singapore i know of at least one church that has been doing it for many years now... City Harvest Church

the church has nice imported italian mosaic tiles for some areas of its building... alot spent in the titanium walls...

they also have GIRO tithing... deducted monthly from your bank account...

what is the basis of tithing?
the act of conscious effort to see all of what we have, not only our monthly salaries... and giving back to the Lord a portion of all that?
the joy of not only sharing what we have to the people around us...
having that sense of obligation and gratitude wherever we go?

putting it all at an Automatic teller somehow seems to take all of that away...

kinda like walk up, transfer the money.. and my obligation is done. i can walk away free of guilt for my tithe for the month/year..

doesn't sound right...

What is really so different about using a swipe card and writing a check. Both are really symbols of our money not the actual cash. We are in a post cash economy. I rarely ever carry more than a dollar or two. I want to be able to track my spending and putting everything on credit or debit helps me do that. It is not going to be for everyone.

Of bigger concern to me is that what we are doing by not giving in cash or cash equivalent (like a check or automatic debit) is requiring the local church to give part of our tithe to the bank or credit card processing company. If one to two percent of all giving goes to a bank or credit card company we are talking about billions of dollars a year that are not being spent on the kingdom. On the other hand, there are those weak believers that will use anything (like lack of convenience) to not give and this will give them one less excuse. Although they probably still won't give.

I like the ideal... This is 2007, the church should stay up with the technology, and while these churches are with it they can also take out there hymn books.

I wrote my opinion of a Time article about it a few weeks ago (Tithing on Credit).

If the purpose of tithing is to increase the funds of the church, then it certainly does serve the purpose. However, I believe that tithing is much more about the discipline itself than it is about increasing the churches bottom line.

I also feel that it could present some serious problems if credit cards are used instead of ATM's or if there are any messages that imply a gospel of prosperity that could impel a churchgoer to try to pay for grace.

As the administrator of a larger church, this item will be sure to ruffle the feathers of our traditional folks but excite the new-age folks. If we can take donations from our website, take electronic giving throughout the month, why not offer this as another avenue? Would I ever use it to tithe? No, but I would use it to put funds towards a special project or increase at times to meet a financial need like additional heating or cooling costs. Seems like a logical idea in todays culture - what I don't like is allowing 2-3% of my donation going to the bank to process my transaction...budgets are tight in the church world and every penny counts in our ministries!

Jesus does not ask for 10% he demands our whole lives--our very selves! This just shows us the continuing capitulation of the church to modernity and the deception of "efficiency" and "ease" as being pinnacle in growing churches. But hey when these churches are using 84 million to keep up their "campuses" and only give barely 4 million to those who live in card board boxes, perhaps all they are left with is a sale's pitch to make giving easier. Wonder if the 4 million or whatever amoung that is given to the widow, orphan, and alien will get cut even further now that there will be fees associated with the giving?

Salvation is not a transaction. Neither is our tithes and offerings.

Hal, there are plenty of Gospels of Prosperity out there already dispensing the Good News that G-d will pour out His riches if you give enough. It's been going on for decades. Give to get regardless of how you do it. Televangelists have been taking plastic for years.

The present tradition of the passing of the plate wans not part of the service in the Synagogue (or the ancient Orthodox or Catholic church), which is why we have the atmosphere in the parable of the widow's mite.

Many of my peers are turned off by offering and would rather give in private or even not at all instead of feeling "judging" eyes on them. As for the decision to plant machines in our own buildings, we need to be prudent. Leadership can decide to only take debit cards for the cashless (such as myself) and have techs program them accordingly. Or we can put locked boxes in the back for checks and change.

Your choice.

In the UK, most large churches get most of their giving via Direct Debit (automated pre-set-up bank transfer). It just seems the obvious way to do it...

I personally don't have a problem with ATM's or other plastic - I always put a check in the offering which is effectively the same thing. Giving and tithing are Biblical practices (prosperity merchant pastors notwithstanding), "Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart: not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver." ICorinthians 9:7

JOSH! How does the hymn book enter into this conversation? But since you took the leap, may I ask what your problem is with the hymn book?

I have no problem with electronic giving, i.e. direct debit through banks. This is quite common in Australia. The good thing about this method is people don't have to remember and the money comes in regularly. I wouldn't encourage people to use their credit cards to give. I would find the presence of ATM's within the church confines quite confronting and I wonder what message it sends to non-Christians or those exploring the faith. Giving to the church for it to carry out its mission is about the heart and where its treasure is, and it shouldn't take the presence of ATM's to remind people to give to the mission of Jesus. I just find the whole idea quite "yukky" really.

Hello,
I'm just wondering about the act. Writing a check once a month or having it automatically deducted from your checking account. Where is the sacrificial giving. why can't you go to the bank and pull out that 10% on payday and not spend it? I have a hard time with this. Seems to me as Chrisitain we need to be focusing on increasing the gifts of the spirit one being self control. You take the money put it in your envelope and place it in the plate. The offering should be a form of worship! How is sending a check to the office or having an automatic withdrawl any different than paying any other bill you have? Who cares what is put in. If you are judging the person sitting down from you and how much they give shame on you. The woman who put the two coins in on sunday gave more than all the others. We should do the same! It seems to me the church was set up to recieve the funds on Sunday and this is part of the worship experience.

Ultimately it all goes to God but for me how it gets there is part of worship. It should be solemn and holy and have special meaning. This is another way to reflect how much we love Christ and the grace that God gave us. We can never buy salvation but there is a desire to give back when you have been given too.

RIGHT ON, JOSH! (and not just because it pushed Melody's button, though that was an added bonus...)

i think all these issues are kind of the same. to josh's point, i was music leader in a church that went from hymnbooks to overhead projection of lyrics - to incorporate new songs, but also to stop people from singing down at a hymnbook. based on the reaction of a number of members, you'd think i'd voted satan in as a board member. made me think twice about replacing pews with arm chairs, that's for sure.

the only issue i see with the atms: if it's debit, that's giving money you've got. if it's credit, it ain't, and i don't think we should help people get further in debt.

by the way - by my count, twenty-three people died and supposedly went to a burning hell while we debated this. just fyi.

mike rucker
http://escroll.blogspot.com

Hi Mike, good to hear your voice again.

This is a very interesting concept.
My wife and I began using our bank's automated banking about two years ago to send in our tithe check. We chose to do that because invairiably we found we'd left our checkbook at home when we came to church.

We found it was just as much a worship experience to sit down and decide how much we were going to have our bank send in, as it was to decide how much to write down on a check.

One concern we've had though, is that our children are not seeing their parents regularly give to the church. Even though we are giving, it is not visible to the next generation. If our church had an ATM I think we would seriously consider using it Sunday in and Sunday out instead of having our gift automatically sent in.

The issue of what message it sends to nonbelieving visitors is a concern. But pastors should be able to address that periodically from the puplit, so that God is honored and the ATM does not detract from the gospel message.

The issue of keeping transactions confined to debit cards seems very wise.

To Ron, who thinks we should not use checks or ATMs but instead put cash in the plate - "No thanks".
If you make a good living, that would be silly carrying that much cash with you. Plus, large amounts of cash is just putting temptation in front of the treasurer. I trust our church's treasurer, but why add temptation when it is not necessary.

Last, the media used to present the financial gift is not important, as you say it is. After all, our "cash" is merely worthless paper compared to the gold coins used in biblical times.

I don't see anything wrong with the church keeping up in a fast-paced world. However, a "tithe" is not simply tossing 10% into a church's pocket. It's an act of worship. If swiping the ATM card truly causes someone to reflect on their dependence and trust in God as our Supplier, then go for it. For me, personally, writing a check allows a bit more time to pray as I write: "God, I'm giving this to You, please have your way."

To comment about tithing machine in singapore:

I think the matter about the heart..

If you gave out of a wrong attitude in your tithing Vs gave a year's tithing in one goal w/o a proper honoring attitude... then tas wrong.

Of cos we are from different denominational background, we're taught different ways of giving.

But the message is sacred, but methods are many.

If our heart of giving is not there, don't give at all.

And also... if your congregation is big, you have to be more technologically and electronically. Imagine, 20,000 members giving tithes in one day and we have to find more ushers just to help with the distribution of the admin?

The point is the message must not be compromised, the question is when members are giving tithes through ATM, are they taught the right attitudes when giving?

Doesn't scripture say to be a "cheerful giver"? Many of the comments here seem to indicate that it isn't valid giving if the giver is happy doing it. Giving should be hard, painful, inconvenient, and serious. Very serious.

I don't see that modeled in scripture. If electronic giving makes it easier for people to be cheerful givers, then by all means do it.