Satan uses guilt and shame so thoroughly that he really can cripple a person who struggles in this area. Interestingly enough, at the crisis pregnancy centre where I work, the hope that we offer is based solely on substitution and justification. Sure, we provide pratical applications, but the fundamental reason the centre has for existing is to share the hope that Christ has given us on the cross.

It is an amazing thing to see a person realize that because Jesus paid for our sin at Calvary, we too can have victory over sin.

How then, do we have survive the guilt? We who are so very fragile? We need to constantly be speaking truth into our lives. "Greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world." "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." etc. The better we know this One who defeated sin, the more He gives us the ability to overcome. The best way to know this is to start at the beginning- the cross. Sometimes that means coming back to the cross.

I am a sinner saved by grace. He who has saved me has defeated sin. While I am still in the flesh I continue to sin, but because of what He has done for me, I can have victory over the sin in my life. I am a child of the King. I am because HE IS.

Our pastor spoke out of Isaiah 6:1-9 with special emphasis on "your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for." (NIV)

I am grateful to God that not only has the sin been taken care of, but also the mingling guilt that comes with it.

Incidentally, Isaiah's call is confirmed in vs. 8 and 9 when God asks "Whom shall I send?" Isaiah steps forward, despite his guilt and unclean lips, and God tells him to "Go."

As a Christian College professor I regularly remind my students that God's forgiveness forms the foundation for God's call.

Is the greater problem personal guilt and a lack of inadequacy before God or is it the unforgiveness, judgmentalism and in effect discrimination that takes place when a leader, young or old, is honest about a weakness and asks for help? I'm guessing we've lost a lot more leaders and potential leaders because of the latter.

When people walk in sin, it is because there is no power in their lives. When people feel guilty over their sin, it is also because there is no power in their lives. We would rather talk about it, analyze it, and discuss it rather than do what it takes on a daily basis to be filled with the love and power of God.

To use the words or to have the mentality of "you are going to sin" is terribly erroneous. You will never find that in scripture. Even in the article by Mr. Piper, he speaks in terms of sinning less.
We should not expect to sin. Because of the power of Jesus in us, we are very capable of never sinning again, otherwise the Christian life is a farce.

"Agree or disagree with Piper’s solution".
Huh?
Please do offer some more thought here.
Are you saying that Piper's solution is too simplistic or what?

What do we have if we don't take our guilt and shame to these two doctrines... clear statements of Scripture that address what human beings are to do with sin before a holy and just Creator-King?

Isn't Piper's point that truth is not just legal in value as to guilt but medicinally healing as to shame.

Please, if you are going to posit that there are possible other or BETTER solutions, don't be coy... state them.

As you probably agree, there are plenty who are suffering.

Surely you wouldn't ask that question on so serious and painful a subject to just get discussion going in a Socratic style.

And yes, I am struggling to be charitable here, and mostly not succeeding. Oh the guilt!

"There is no need to reiterate the statistics on sexual immorality among clergy."
Yes, there is a need for God's people to see this huge failure, over and over, until they are able to examine the whole clergy system to see the way it "nullifies the commands of God". With a simple tithe, devoted mostly to buying services for themselves, believers can outsource most of their spiritual responsibilities to hired experts and relax in mediocrity. Most men, have no responsibility to articulate any truth from God on any Sunday for their whole lives. The verse that warns believers to "not for sake meeting" tells them a meeting is "spurring one another", not warming a pew for a lecture. Peter tells us a priest is for "proclaiming", not mere listening. If the system does not require saints to "speak the truth in love" when they gather, they won't do it when they are scattered either.

I'm not surprised Piper wants to blame sexual guilt for mediocrity. He is too chained to crowd oriented traditions of gathering staring an expert to see out of the box to what the scripture specifically calls for in building the saints to full maturity. Another reformation is needed to move forward.

"The tragedy is that Satan uses guilt from these failures to strip you of every radical dream you ever had or might have."

Puh-lease. Why would Satan need to lift a finger? Evangelical culture does a better job of demoralizing and neutralizing a sinful believer's effectiveness far more thoroughly than the devil ever could.

From personal experience, far to personal and far to involved. I would point out that the greatest problem for me is that there is not honesty about this issue.

Good in theory to know that God has taken all my sin, but when you feel like a leper for falling, and when every one else has their holy faces on it is soul crushing.

We need a healthy dose of realism. We hid behind our religious face to afraid to let others see our deepest issues. I do take note that New Testement was nearly always written to a team, not a individual.

I mentioned to my wife the other day, in her close circle of friends, they have as husbands (1) a smoker (2) a gambler (3) a sex addict now all these men "saved" Christians who are Christ followers. I mentioned to her that I would prefer to be the smoker cause at least then I couldn't hid from the reality, or hid the reality from others....

I think we need more of I am OK Christ, so I am OK to talk about it, and admit it. I know that is always easier to do in retrospect when healing is well progressed, but it shore makes a difference to those in the midst of struggle to hear others struggles with the issue.

This is an interesting topic and I actually wrote a blog of my own that relates to it at http://www.livingdusty.com/blog/2007/09/13/all-of-lifes-junk/

So often in our prayer lives we spend time begging for forgiveness over continuing struggles or for past sins and we never can get over that hump. It's true that the Devil uses that guilt against us, however, I think it's also true that we hold onto all that "junk" as if it is how we describe ourselves. It's not until we realize the freedom we have in Christ because of what he did for us that we can start to escape those past sins. In Col 3 it's clear that we as Christians are covered by Christ and those sins are no longer seen. Sure we screw up but we just get back up and try again, knowing that those sins were paid for in full on the cross even before we knew Christ.

I wonder if a good deal of the problem of the guilt in the first place is our approach to sexuality and the body. In particular, our view of the body needs to be Christianized. Many Christian men, never having their curiosity about the body wholesomely satisfied, turn to porn. Our ambivalence and sense of taboo toward the body exacerbates lust and shame. Honestly, I think this needs to be addressed.

i think guilt is an all too powerful weapon. it about ruined me in the work of christ. i think sometimes the guilt from sin is more weighty and destructive than the sin itself.

This subject brings about much weariness. It has been (sexual sin) one of the keys to making this "free man, a new creation" be shackled in heart and mind. It is a sin that is at once egregious and yet commmon. When your wife finds out, it feels like the former, and yet when you survey the field, you discover the latter. The Bible offers both comfort and condemnation. Everybody has an opinion: take the long road of discipleship, or other maintain that you need "deliverance." If one talks about the long road, people will say you are still shackled and should not be in ministry. If you talk of deliverance, you have multiple cases of people who have NOT been "delivered" but found they need to take the long road. If you are in ministry, and struggle with it, it is hard to know if or when you should step down (especially if it has not been public sin, or with a "live" woman).
It's one thing to be forgiven of sin that happened BC (before Christ). It is one thing to be forgiven of "occasional" sins. It seems quite another to have recurrent sin (especially if seemingly "willful") that seems very hard to not fall into again. The temptations are everywhere. You can have (as I do) blocks on your computer (and my wife holds the key) and cut off other access angles, and yet it is still there, at the gym, on TV, on the sidewalk, in church, in a newsmagazine, in your memory. It is hard to balance "this is a BAAAD sin" and feeling scared to ever commit it again, and "sin does happen", can any of us (contrary to posters in this forum) really NOT sin at all? I would like to meet the person that does not sin.

For now, I am taking the long road. Deliver me!

On a bit of a differnt slant, what about the effect on marriages of "young people" who are bombarded with messages about sexual purity (certainly something to be maintained), then who find problems once married because they just can't seem to get over the idea that sex is "dirty" or "impure" or "wrong," even if they are married? Many times, they are also told that sex will be wonderful once they are married (and indeed it is, as the Lord meant it to be). But because of the "messages" that they've received, it doesn't immediately become "wonderful." Like any communication, it takes time to develop and improve, but they were told that it would be "wonderful," or whatever. When it isn't, coupled with the "messages" from the past, then trouble can develop in a marriage pretty quickly. That may be one reason among others, that the divorce rate is just about the same with Christians as with the population at large. Add to that the issues in the post, and, well, we do have work to do, don't we?

I wonder if the problem is not so much guilt, a sort of legal concept that affects relationships more than individuals, but rather shame. Are we in fact ashamed of ourselves for our failure to measure up to some standard, internal or external, that we have accepted as legitimate for us. Shame is turned inward, and it destroys us from the inside out. I think it may be far worse an enemy than guilt.

I enjoyed Piper's article, and the questions raised by this blog posting. I am convinced at times we do not practice forgiveness. We want to, and we often talk about it, but one of the issues I see time and time again is rather simple, forgiveness does not address the consequences of our actions. One example would be the man who drives drunk and kills a family crossing the street. He can ask for forgiveness and receive it, but it does not alter the outcome of his choices. The family is still dead.
Should we expect him to go on after being forgiven as it never happened? Is forgiveness a cleaning of the chalk board or does forgiveness involve a change in the character of the person?
The unmarried teen couple that has a child while they are in high school, can they be forgiven, of course, but the consequences are still very much present, a child. Forgiveness does not erase the consequences of their actions.
So, how do we progress, how do we as the body of Christ deal with the impact of guilt, shame and support?
It seems to me that often we want forgiveness to be a magic pill that does away with all the consequences of our actions. We often fall into this trap especially with "personal" sins that no one else knows about. I an convinced we also need the integrity to deal with the consequences of the sin that no one else knows about.

man, oh man. what a post and comments set to read at 7:30am... kind of wears the soul down.

this has been an issue with me since i was a kid (pornography, masturbation) and continues, to some extent, today. it has no doubt affected the intimacy levels of my marriage.

it's been mentioned that the US is a sex-saturated society; my feeling is that this is overwhelming the responsibility of fundamentalist Christianity - from the Puritans on down. when something is so taboo and wrong it simply wakes the sleeping giant, as it were. makes him angry, too.

i think paul was a little overinterested in sex - i believe it was his 'thorn in the flesh.' some people say he may have been partly blind - maybe we know how he got there...

so we have an overzealous apostle making overly strict covenants carried through by overzealous christians finding ripe fields in the US to be, uh, overzealous.

and in europe, sex isn't even really an issue in the 80% of the bell curve.

here's one other thought that no one wants to address: the sexual difference between men and women in terms of interest and appetite is not a failure of men. the racks and racks of men's magazines shows something far deeper. the difference is simply evolutionary: the male sprayed his seed around as much as possible to produce offspring, and the female developed the nurturing characteristics to preserve it. it is a simple and elegant solution.

unlike adam and eve.

and, to terry stanley, scripture says in many ways that we are going to sin. e.g., that's why, "when you sin, you have an advocate before the Father, Christ Jesus." [sounds like you may be a teampyroite...:)]

mike rucker
http://escroll.blogspot.com

Off hand, I believe Jesus zapped Satan once and for all. Inference: Satan is now a figment of misinformed theological imagination. Hey, Milton had the same problem.

Masturbation is an excellent topic for folk to grapple with as are all topics that have hitherto been placed in a Satan-Guilt matrix. Convenient, manipulative and intellectually dishonest.

In general, the solution lies in placing children first (ahead of the compulsion to succeed at romantic love) and understanding that there is real guilt that attaches to acts of true harm (to self and others) and pathological guilt -- such as seeing masturbation as a sin rather as a relatively harmless indication of one's sexual needs and desires.

We live in a time when every hidden thing seems to be revealed. Hopefully we will move as a result toward a more healthy and reasonable approach to the good news that Jesus himself proclaimed -- that God (Abba) is at hand and that the good lies in repenting and believing it. And availing ourselves of the nearness.

Best, S

I'm reading a book & it brought up the concept of "Christian Gnosticism." I don't even thing the author intended for this to be a big concept, but it was to me. I think modern (or postmodern for that matter) western Christianity is about knowing the "right" answers. Doctrines become the key that unlocks the door to an empowered life with Christ. This is true, However this is not truth. The living person of Jesus is the key. Now you need to know what Jesus you are walking with; doctrine is important, it is true, but only Jesus is, "The Way, the Life, & the Truth."

A few days ago one of the guys in our community said, "I masturbated." My answer to him? "Thanks for letting me know." That's it. Why no talk of the substitutionary atonement? Because he doesn't so much need to know WHAT or HOW it was purchased for him, although this is radically important; he needs to know WHO purchased it for him. How will he know the WHO? Not so much by hearing ABOUT forgiveness, although this is important, but through EXPERIENCING forgiveness through Christ's body; the Church, me. Biblical doctrines are not only facts to be understood, but truths to be lived! & this through the LIVING SON OF MAN, & him through his BODY, the church...you & me.

Piper asserts that we feel guilty because we don't grasp the depth of God's forgiveness. That's a good place to start, I think. There are a couple of complicating factors, however, that have already been identified:

1) We, the church, do a pretty darn good job of encouraging people to feel bad about their sins. Sexual sins are especially shameful.

2) Being pronounced spiritually pure doesn't remove consequences. God forgives us for the sin, but we still have the broken heart, the addicted body, the child out of wedlock.

I think Piper is right to see a deep and lasting understanding of grace is crucial (though I don't know why potential pastors are more important than anyone else in the Body). Piper's approach is very cerebral and textual, but I think forgiveness can't be understood in our minds until it is experienced in a community of faith.

I think we need to do a better job modeling brokenness and forgiveness in church. Somehow, we don't trust grace--we think we need to shame people into repentance first. I disagree with that. God's way is love--we draw people to repentance by showing them how much more beautiful life is when we are free from sin and free to love.

In church, there should be no shame in having a child out of wedlock. ("WHAT?" you may say.) That must be true if Jesus really did take the punishment for the sins of the world. There simply is no place for shame in the Kingdom of God.

But justification theology isn't enough. What do we do with the spiritual, emotional, and physical consequences of our sinful acts? We have to see that God takes what was meant for evil and turns it to good. We have to see that God is incarnate, that he came and suffered with us to redeem us. That's the hard work of dealing with the consequences of sin.

This is a personal issue for me, because I am in ministry, and I am a recovering sexual addict (I lead a recovery group now). I can say that freely, unashamedly, because God's grace is bigger than shame. But the process of recovery (forgiveness and healing) took hard work in a community of faith, where others offered me hope, spoke the truth, and most of all, walked beside me the whole way.

Much of what Piper has to say is true, to the mind, and in the legal sense. Yet, as we all know our actions are not always guided with our brain. The issues of guilt and remorse are real, but to prescribe some theological doctrine to help me experience forgiveness and restoration is incomplete. I would agree with several of you that have highlighted the need for us to grow and mature in community. I would also like that to deal with this issue on the grounds of justification and atonement is sterile and impersonal.
Last I checked Jesus didn't just prescribe some theological premise and sin no more. Instead he immersed himself into the situations of the world. He didn't just say we should work, but he worked as a carpenter for most his life. He didn't just say women are great and you should treat them better, he talked to them at a well, healed them of years of physical issues, and made his resurrection known first to a woman.
My point is that Jesus is personal, real, vibrant, and alive. To deal with this epidemic in the church we can not hide from it or rationalize it away. It is important to hold onto vital doctrine, but we must also grow in our relationship, in the midst of our sinful struggles, in community. But we cannot wrestle with such matters in ways that are sterile and impersonal. Issues of sin, guilt, and shame are significant heart issues (spiritually speaking). Which means easy answers and prescriptions are insulting, insensitive, and un-Christ-like. Issues of this nature are messy, uncomfortable, disturbing, and the like.
Piper's comments may get the ball rolling, but merely scratch the surface when it comes to a solution or a cure for this growing problem in the body of Christ and in our culture.

When I was in Bible College (long before the internet), masturbation was a huge topic in our accountability groups. Virtually every guy I knew had a struggle with it on some level. And there was definitely a tendency to measure how well we were doing spiritually by how long it had been since we last masturbated.

When I was in the pastorate as an associate pastor, and the internet began to proliferate, I had regular problems with porn. My wife knew about the problem but didn't know how to help me. I confessed to my senior pastor, and he began to help keeping me accountable. The frequency of my problem with porn went down (to every month or two) but never went away completely.

About this time, I felt a clear call to missions. When I approached my denominational missions board I shared with them my accountability with my senior pastor regarding porn, in the interest of full disclosure and also to help ensure that I could continue to be in an accountability relationship. To my surprise, they said I was a sex addict, and their policy was to never send anyone to the mission field who had ever had any kind of addiction.

I was undaunted in my belief that God had called us to the mission field, and found another missions agency. When I shared my problem with them, I was received and even affirmed for my honesty and forthrightness. I went on to serve on the mission field for several years.

I agree with the posts that have said the evangelical church is a big part of the problem. I regularly read of pastors or Bible college professors or even presidents who are fired and publicly humiliated for having a problem with porn. It doesn't exactly encourage the many others with this problem to open up about it with anyone, but leaves them to struggle with it on their own and try to overcome it in private. Meanwhile, I fear we allow many other sins, such as pride, gossip, gluttony and so forth to continue unabated. Are we "straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel"?

As a woman, can I echo jr's comments about masturbation?

The idea that adultary and masturbation are on a par with each other as a moral problem seems wrong-headed to me.

Equating masturbation with adultary denies the seriousness of adultary where damage touches children and grandparents and friends and hugely damages the ties of trust far beyond the married couple. To reduce adultary to the same level as masturbation is almost obscene. Adultary has got to be one of the most destructive sins after murder. No, I am not a betrayed spouse nor a betrayer spouse; I simply think that adultary is that serious.

What we get in the Christian church is scrupulous people who feel burdened by their 'sin' of masturbation and hold themselves back from ministry and many ministers who commit adulatry and are forgiven but seem to see their betrayal as a simple 'breaking of the rules'.

We've got the whole thing upside down!

I think a lot more people deal with struggles of sexual sin and temptation than care to admit it. I know I do. But, we should not pass it off as "Well you shouldn't feel guilty about it" because too often we fall into Satan's trap of "a little sin won't hurt" or worse, as with pornography, "It's not hurting anybody." Wrong. The top two sins that people seem to be justifying and compromising with are lust (pornography, sex outside of marriage, etc.) and greed. Look at all the prosperity preaching. Look at the world and how we have become over-sexed. You can't turn on the TV, go to the movies, walk through the check-out lane, drive down the street or even play a video game a lot of times without some sort of sexual message or innuendo or violence. Yes, sex is a beautiful thing - but not if we aren't following the Lord's guidelines and standards. Sexual sins destroy marriages, families, churches... Is it the only sin? No. And the church needs to speak out on those issues, too.

When the woman was caught in her sin, Jesus said your sin is forgiven, go and sin no more. So if Jesus said go and sin no more, then I guess it's possible to sin no more. If we crucify our flesh daily as the Word tells us to, then we can walk in the Spirit.Thus not fill the lust of the flesh, flee from sin the Bible tells us, so we should go and do like wise.

Is masturbation a sin? Probably not. Unless it involves sexual fatasies outside of marriage, or interfers with your sexual desire and obligations with your spouse, or becomes obsessive-compulsive, or leads to acting out in other more sexually inappropriate ways. It can be addictive, and it can have consequences in your sexual performance with your spouse. I can't say that one should never masturbate, but it is a lot like other addictive behaviors, it's best never to start, and if you have started, to stop. But, there is the rub (no pun intended). It is not the unforgiveable sin, and there is pardon and forgiveness. God desires clean vessels, but He can still use us dirty ones as channels for His grace. Every clean hour, day, week, month, and year is a victory in the Lord. Every slip is humbling and should remind us of our absolute dependence on a loving God of multiple chances.

This is all very well but how does an adult who has been on their own for many years deal with the urges that come over them without mastibating? They are natural urges that would not in my case be taken up anyother way, sex outside of marriage is a big no. I don't look at porn or anything to bring the urges on but it happens occasionaly and I'm a women. Any suggestions, am I such a horrible sinner that I can't go into ministry or hope for a beautiful marriage one day despite being divorced?

I write as a woman whose husband had an affair with a work colleage, and he is now an ordained minister.
Forgiveness is hard- but it is what we are called to do- and it does wipe the slate clean.
I could have walked aways and he would have lost his ministry and I have every 'legal' right to walk away from our marriage biblically. That doesn't make it right-
We either believe that Jesus' forgiveness is total and walks into every area of our lives or we don't.
Yes- he needs accountability- and he has- but Jesus forgives him- and so must I- and so must the church.
I think he stands to be a better pastor with a powerful story of grace and freedom in the face of Christ- and we hope our story of healing will show others that in the kingdom of God- we walk free

i'm wondering if the problem isn't inherrant in defining things as success and victory. is masturbation a defeat?
if that is so, then what is a victory? not masturbating?
if looking at pornography is a defeat, then is not viewing pornography a victory?
if so then how do you celebrate victories?
is there a better way than swapping success for failure and vice versa?

I feel that our generation needs a word on purity, it has to be preached also the church needs to acknowledge that we strugling with imorality.we teach so much on dreams, visions and being the best which is good,But our God has called us to live a holy and pure life so that we can be used for we are vessels in his hands, yes we might fall but having the courage to get up takes the hand of God and his knowledge

I have found all these comments interesting.

I didn't glean from Piper's article that he was only talking about the doctrines, but the Who the doctrines deal with.

The Christian life is not a religious set of do's and don't's. It is about the greatest relationship a human can ever have- an intimate, soul regenerating, love with Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

It seems to me that the guilt & shame come from the emphasis on the individual actions. It can be crippling, especially when all one hears about is the sinfulness of impurity. Purity isn't about abstinence- entirely. It is about living a life of worship. EVERY action and thought must be taken captive, and judged, based on its effectiveness in the spiritual life. Is looking at pornography or reading a "soft-porn" novel beneficial to me or my spiritual growth? Is this an act of worship? Does this meet the Biblical ordinance to "pray without ceasing"? If not, then get rid of it! If you can't do it on your own, find someone to help!

Hmm... I wonder what our local churches be like if we took gossip into captivity?

I'm (very) new to Christianity, so this might very well be a silly question, but does the Bible actually address masturbation?

I'm fully on board with the idea that sex should wait until marriage, but asking me to wait until marriage to have sex AND not to masturbate? well that just seems down right cruel.

I realize I'm being a bit humorous here, but seriously, if you (insert euphuism) a couple of times a week to relieve some tension, I really don't think that's going to keep you out of heaven....at least I hope not, heh.

But like I said, this is all mostly new to me, so I speak with exactly no authority on the subject.

Jay,

As you can see, there are a variety of opinions about the morality of masturbation.

We know that the Jesus taught that lust is akin to adultery, and this is supported by biological/physchological research, where we know that much of the brain doesn't distinguish between a thing imagined and a thing experienced. So undressing someone in your mind is biologically no different than actually doing it.

We also believe that we are to be servants of Christ, not enslaved to anything else, and I believe that includes addictive and compulsive behaviors.

I think these things are RELEVANT to the issue of masturbation (am I lusting and is it compulsive?) but not determinative as to the morality of it.

If all this seems like a pretty tough standard, well, welcome to Grace. The whole point is that we can't try to live by a law, we have to live in the freedom of Christ's forgiveness and trusting in the power of the Spirit within us.

And so, dear brothers and sisters,I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him. And stop masturbating!

I think the saving truth of God's word is what will set us free from sexual immorality. Acknowledging our sins to God is key, and next sincere repentance. The problem is there are a lot of people admitting their wrong, but they are not willing to turn away from the thing that's wrong. Recognizing that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked is crucial--and nobody knows are heart but God. So what do we do? Rely on God's grace and power to cleanse us from all hidden secrets. We ask Him to examine us, try us, and prove us so we can know ourselves and what areas in our hearts require cleansing. The Bible offers compassionate remedies for those of us who fall short of the glory of God. The problem is that either we don't accept and follow the prescriptions God has offered or we don't know what He's offering as a remedy to sin and struggle. When we struggle, only the Holy Spirit can help steer us to the root of the sin that is in our hearts and manifested by our fleshly deeds. The Holy Spirit is the power of God working in us. So, if any one of us "pursues" sin, we'll sin. It's a matter of how we govern our minds and how we choose. By God's grace and through Jesus Christ who strengthens us, all of us can choose to do what's right, if we really "wanted" to.

I think it helps to look at this as we would any other sin that "easily entangles" us. We must separate our "position" which is "heavenly" and "in Christ", never to change from our "condition" (our progressive sanctification). In other words we are becoming in this life what we already "are" as seen by God, by His Spirit, through knowing His Word. We must first know - then grow. In Romans 6 we are "dead" to sin and by faith we "reckon" or "consider" it so. As the Holy Spirit applies this truth as we take it by faith, we find (after many failures-ala Romans 7) we begin to become dead to the power of sin and "alive to God." This takes time as our will becomes conformed to Christ's, but hang in there--it is not a formula, but a life changing principle. Eventually we will find the freedom of Romans 8. Our complete victory is beyond the grave, but God's grace is all we nned to get us there. Blessings!