A pastor friend of mine keeps a large mouth bass in an aquarium in his office. The fish is probably over 10 years old, but is only about 4 inches long. A large mouth bass in the wild can reach 2 feet in length, and occasionally longer. The point is that a fish will only grow as big as its surroundings allow.

If a church's ministry is insular and not ever expanding and reaching out into the community and beyond, the congregation will only grow more insular and self-focused. If we create a small tank, we can't expect the fish to grow.

Part of this is simply human nature--some are leaders and some are followers. But, I don't see that as an excuse for apathy and complacency. Rather, it should be a clarion call for leaders to break the cycle of indifference in their churches, not merely by challenging members from the pulpit, but by forging ahead into uncharted territory missionally. A healthy church must be ever-expanding, ever-reproducing. If it is not engaged in changing the world, but remains content in entertaining and edifying itself, it can never expect its congregation to live by faith, when reminiscing about history is all they know church to be.

We have this mentality that what we really need is a bigger tank, when in reality what we really need is to smash the tanks and allow the rivers of living water to pour out into the seas of humanity. It's only there that faith will begin to grow.

Discipleship. I think that is what this article is saying evangelicals don't do well. This is because we have a soteriology that is insufficient. Our preaching of "soul saving" follows a neo-gnostic line--born not of Christ--but of Plato. Perhaps even Augustine is somewhat at fault for this when he turned an outward and visibly lived Christian faith in the midst of a Christ community, into an inward devotional life. Of course there is much good Augustine did (perhaps Plato too).

Most of our preaching and "worship" gatherings are bathed in our culture of materialism, narcissism, and the cult of "I". Thus we no longer have a soteriology that flows out of a Christ who calls us to follow as his people. Contemporary evangelicalsim (in its broadest sense) begins with Cartesian individuals and not with God. Therefore there is no way for us to be formed into something outside ourselves--that is Christ. And our individualist language hinders us from grappling with, let alone becoming, the Body of Christ.

Perhaps another reason is due to the non-existence of any coherent ecclesiological understanding that sees the church as existing for more than saving souls. Biblically speaking, the church is not charged with the mission to save souls. It is charged with the mission to be Christ's body. To do this the church is called to be a community of disciples and then form new disciples in order that new communities of Christ are birthed. Thus Christ's Body will expand to all the nations.

Perhaps when we understand salvation as living in the Kingdom of God (or country of God which has no borders), perhaps then we will have a starting point that begins with God. The Lord's Prayer, perhaps the paramount prayer of discipleship begins with God, moves into the pleading for God's kingdom to come here and only after these are set straight does it move to us. And it never moves to us as Cartesian individuals--but rather as those who are living in God's story of Christ breaking into this world.

When I think of the mature Christians I have had the privilege to know in my life, my book begins with my own parents. They raised four children on scripture memorization, teaching obedience to God's word and also to them. My list is so extensive that it would contain many volumes. The folks in it would cover all age groups, though the vast majority are past 50. Why? Because they have lived enough life to know of God's faithfullness through the tough times and dark hours. They truly understand the "good news". This is a generation that spread the gospel to a degree unheard of in any previous generation. They sent missionaries around the world, they birthed more evangelical churchs than at any other time. They did this without significant funds, but they sure knew the power of prayer. They fellowshiped together and told their friends and neighbors about Jesus. They were Bible scholars because the world of 'Christian' publishing had yet to take off. Besides, there wasn't enough money left at the end of the month, and after the tithe, to buy a book.

I remember after my Dad retired and had a little more money to spend, he and my Mom spent three months working for free and paying their own expenses to help a mission. Most of all, they had a hunger to be like Jesus - and they were.

So, Gordon, if you "church people have forgotten how to raise saints" I would suggest that the way to do this has not changed since Bible times. Set an example, walk in obedience to the Word, teach the Bible in it's entirety. Expect some to be offended and walk away, but don't worry about the size of the church or the paycheck. If it is God's work, He will provide.

Thank you for this insightful article.

This post is very good. We definitely have an issue with Christians who are not mature -- and not just new ones, some have been in church for years and never matured beyond where they were when they started.

I think as has already been said, at the heart of it all is non-discipleship. For too long it's been OK to be a Christian without any expectation that you should be growing as a disciple. There's been no expectation that a Christian should actively pursue growth and no "established paths" for someone who does wan to grow to follow. You sort of have to hack your way through the "jungle" and forge your own path. (We get you to baptism, and then you are on your own.) Sometimes that works by God's grace, but you've got to be pretty persistent and willing to put effort in. Not everyone will do that... especially in this society where we want things quickly or we get discouraged and move on.

The observation that the author makes that we need "mentors" in order to mature is, I think, right on target. I also think you are right that, for whatever reason, older Christians often don't really want to teach the younger generation "the ropes" as it were. People have to "find their own way" and very often they get discouraged, give up, and either leave or just content themselves to remain at a certain "immature" level, thinking it's the best they can. (And perhaps, left to their own devices with no guidance, it is!)

Interestingly enough, I just completed a post (submitted to The Ooze and Next Wave where for possible posting :)--) that made a similar point about the need for the "older" to mentor the "younger". Think about the example of Paul and Timothy for a model of how it seemed to work in their case.

Child-like theology is the problem. Most Evangelical churches don't have a transistion point in their educational systems that moves people from a child-like view of God on a throne and Jesus in a manger into a robust view of a radical social and political revolution that transforms lives, communities, and nations.

For most adult Evangelicals, the Bible has become a book of right and wrong moral behaviors reinforced with magical stories. That is what they were taught as a kids, but a robust faith in Christ leads to a radical departure from the normalcy of civilization. Mature Christians must at some point learn that the Bible is a radical prophetic critique of the values of imperialism, greed, and oppression.

Gordon - we all - would do well to wake up to the "Finisher" phenomenon identified by such articles in CT as Grey Power [Tony Carnes, Finishing Well [Christine Garner]or research produced by RTI.org: Baby Boomers Most Likely Age Group to Volunteer, or even better, Amy Hansen's work with Leadership Network: Churches Responding to the Age Wave. The middle-adult generation isn't just hopping the cruise ship circuit. They are responding to Christ out of a search for significance, and yet are in danger of having to look outside the church to find a place to serve. I somewhat suspect that the fixation on youth has relegated the middle-adult generation into the background. Even more, I wonder if the obsession with emerging patterns has dismissed their voice into irrelevancy.

I agree with Sam. Ezra 7:10 Devote,Study,Live, and Teach.
Not Members,Marketing,and Membership
We commit to discipling men for two years including church history, theology, and Xian worldview.
Matt.28 > Make Disciples not converts

I'm amazed at those who have attended church for 30, 40, 50 years and still remain in a Bible Study class that is in a sequence of every 7 years. In other words, Bible 101 for 50 years - please.

Maturity comes not only from life, but from studying God's word. The basic Sunday School is for new believers. My question would be - why doesn't the church notice this?

I lead a Bible study for those who want to grow in maturity - I have seven out of 60 attend. The rest are sticking with Bible 101. I guess it is easier than trying to figure out you might need to grow in Christ just a little more.

You can't mentor if you haven't grown past infancy. Be brave and get out of Bible 101.

Gordon MacDonald is absolutely right about the church and the hosts of spiritual babies filling it pews and programs. I belong to a very large church and see this everyday. I totally agree with Gordon that mature christians come from regular one-on-one mentoring and coaching, and active participation in a small group...and even this is not a guarantee!

I have been mentoring men for over 30 years and have not seen any other way, method or program that consistently produced mature christians who are "all in" with Jesus. So sad but true.

This is from the Leadership newsletter article of the same topic. The blog post is truncated.

We have a rising (I daresay, a life-threatening) problem in the modern church. Older people—above 50, let's say—don't want to be tutors or mentors. Too busy, too distracted, too secretive, too afraid. So a younger generation of spiritual infants is really struggling because an older generation doesn't want to tell its stories, doesn't want to get involved. They prefer Christian cruises, Christian golf tournaments, and more Bible studies where information can be piled upon information.

Thank you, Gordon, for saying this. I have wonderful, mature, Christian parents who raised me. They continue to mentor me to this day. But, I feel like I want more. Your statement about the over 50 crowd being too busy to disciple younger Christians hits the nail on the head for me. I long for such a mentor in my own life.

I think this is part of the reason why my generation is leaving the churches their parents started and led to do their own thing. It's a generalization, but the older generation isn't interested in us. Isn't that part of what the emerging movement is all about? But there's a danger to that. My husband and I were on staff of one such church start-up. It was like being on the playground with no supervision. People got hurt, and there was no one older and wiser to step in and put a stop to it.

Though, wouldn't someone with the maturity of which you speak be willing to find time between their Christian cruise and golf game to mentor me? Wouldn't they prioritize that over their other activities?

I would agree that much of the problem is that those we are successfully 'bringing to faith' we have done so with some very convincing tag lines based not in the Scriptures but in the sinful desires of man. Who, in their flesh, would say 'no' to an easier life? Maybe we need to see that Jesus calls us all to be his disciples. So when we seek to bring people to faith, we need to call them to be Christ's disciple (a salvation that is only discerned by the power of the Holy Spirit). The best life that the Father envisioned for His Son was a cross. And this is also the best life that He has for us. No one in their right mind is going to 'sign up' to carry their cross - only in the mind of Christ. All of our metaphors for salvation - the lifeboat, the bridge between God and us, etc. all neglect to encompass transformation and spiritual maturity. Our call to faith is flawed. We overemphasize the association between salvation and justification to the degree that new converts aren't even aware of a call to take up their cross or mature in step with the Body. Salvation is found in repentance (Is.30:15) so let's go call each other and the world to repentance.

Being someone with a passion for shepherding and discipleship (though not particularly adept at it), I've wonder about this as well.

I agree we can attribute the prevelance of spiritual infants in part to the focus evangelicals have on reaching unbelievers and helping them cross the line of faith. But I would hardly say that focus is a bad thing.

I believe additional insight into this can be found in the book Reveal, recently published by Willow Creek.
http://www.liveintentionally.org/2007/08/08/a-preview-of-reveal-where-are-you/

The book says Willow Creek has always operated with the philosophy that no matter where a person was in their spiritual journey they could develop a program to take them to the next level. But after conducting extensive research, they found that that they were actually hindering the spiritual development of many people by creating dependence on the church rather than fostering personal spiritual disciplines.

Considering the great influence Willow Creek has on evangelical churches around the country, I would guess this same problem exists in thousands of churches.

The good thing is that Willow now recognizes this and is changing its approach to maturing believers and sharing these changes with other churches.

I am grateful for men like Gordon MacDonald, who can write clearly and incisively. His observations in this article coincide with mine.

He suggested the need for answers, for the Scripture is valuable for reproofs and for corrections. Where is the biblical insight for this issue?

I have noticed three exhorations in the New Testament: walk by truth, walk by spirit, and walk by faith. (walk in love, seems different) My thoughts have pinpointed these three as essential practices for developing maturity.

Can these be the answer, the "correction" to a significant problem among Evangelical Christianity?

Amen!

I think our culture of "instant gratification,"bigger is better" and "quick fixes to avoid inconvenience, discomfort or work" has infiltrated the church and created Shallow Christ Followers. And when I see that this is the diet our young people are being raised on, it's quite frightening.

Lord help us!

When I think of the mature Christians I have had the privilege to know in my life, my book begins with my own parents. They raised four children on scripture memorization, teaching obedience to God's word and also to them. My list is so extensive that it would contain many volumes. The folks in it would cover all age groups, though the vast majority are past 50. Why? Because they have lived enough life to know of God's faithfullness through the tough times and dark hours. They truly understand the "good news". This is a generation that spread the gospel to a degree unheard of in any previous generation. They sent missionaries around the world, they birthed more evangelical churchs than at any other time. They did this without significant funds, but they sure knew the power of prayer. They fellowshiped together and told their friends and neighbors about Jesus. They were Bible scholars because the world of 'Christian' publishing had yet to take off. Besides, there wasn't enough money left at the end of the month, and after the tithe, to buy a book.

I remember after my Dad retired and had a little more money to spend, he and my Mom spent three months working for free and paying their own expenses to help a mission. Most of all, they had a hunger to be like Jesus - and they were.

So, Gordon, if you "church people have forgotten how to raise saints" I would suggest that the way to do this has not changed since Bible times. Set an example, walk in obedience to the Word, teach the Bible in it's entirety. Expect some to be offended and walk away, but don't worry about the size of the church or the paycheck. If it is God's work, He will provide.

Thank you for this insightful article.

Spiritual immaturity is everywhere.
-Seemingly easy answers to complex spiritual questions abound,
-Increasing focus on "I, the Believer" and less and less focus on " We, the people of God" seems to be the norm,
-Less and less emphasis is placed on what the walk with Jesus really entails day-to-day out there in the world, getting bruised alongside other people who need to know Him,and instead there exists a trend toward living and learning with only those like us in a safe, protected lifestyle. This feels to me like an easy-to-follow recipe for immaturity.

The problem is that some in the church have abandonded the Word of God for the seeker-sensitive, emergent, market driven, purpose driven, culture driven, approach to "doing church."

Imature christians and self-deceived unbelievers are the only possible result.

Do we need to look any further than the saying of Jesus "Where you treasure is, there your heart will be also." Our treasures are, by and large, on this earth. So, according to Jesus, must our hearts also be.

I've found that most western expressions of christianity, and especially evangelicalism, neglect the pointy end of Jesus' teachings on wealth. We simply don't take seriously the dangers of wealth nor the instruction to invest it in heaven (which, in NT terms, means to give it to those without).

By and large, we have the same materialistic dreams as our neighbour, and we harbour the same materialistic dreams for our children. Bring on the jubilee. If we really believe that God is into justice, then why wait for jesus to return to bring some equity to the world. We, as his people, are called to do it in advance of his coming.

If our eyes are evil (a semitic idiom for greed, stinginess or desire for riches) then our whole body will be filled with darkness. And that's not a bad summary for what Gordon McD is saying.

For what it's worth.

Great questions and comments. My 2 cents: We are not interested in sanctification, growth or discipleship. CT does not even have Growth or Discipleship in its lists of key topics and it is THE main magazine for Evangelicals.

Look at the main conferences on leadership and such. They are almost all about talking heads and improving one's sermons. Now their research as shown in Reveal indicates that the most committed are dissatisfied and 25% leaving the church.

Any educator or coach knows that the only way to raise people to maturity is a combination of Didactics, Reflection, Experience, Accountability, Modeling and Supernatural. Mr. Mac said as much. Growth takes time, energy, purposefulness and pain. As long as we equate talking heads with learning and growth we are in trouble.

Good talkers are recruited to seminary and trained to talk better while referencing the Bible. It works with TV and crowds but not for life change.

I think the issue of maturity can be directly attributed to the factor of time and development. True maturity comes only with time being used properly and the fullness of time coming to pass in the life of a plant, animal, or person. Fullness comes with the fullness of time in our lives. This factor alone spells why we do not have spiritual growth as mentioned in the article. Everything is instantaneous and hot house Christianity is the norm. Just as we have too early picked vegetables and fruits, so we have people who have been picked too early and not given a definite period of growth and testing and development.

I concur that many Christians over age 50 are, as Neil Postman coins it, "Amusing themselves to death." However there are a few I know who wretch about the fact that they would have a personal ministry with younger individual Christians, if only the younger ones would recognize the value and commit to a growth relationship with an older Christian. The postmoderns have little or in most cases, no respect for age, experience or wisdom. You can't even get these ponies to water, let alone make them drink.

I couldn't agree more regarding this article as I have had this same complaint myself. I found myself a few years ago coming into the church and searching for someone, a seasoned mature Christian woman in the faith to help me, but could find no one who was willing to mentor me. Instead, all I found was alot of insecurity and fear laden women. Fortunately for me, the wife of the pastor of the church took me under her personal wings and helped me. Had that not happened, I believe I would have given up on church and gone back to my old ways. The experience made me stronger and caused me to lean on God more than I would have done at the time if I had a great network of people to go to. God bless the woman of God (Sherry H. Holmes) because she played a major role in my life and contributed to who I have become today. I think the lack of mentors in the church is a real sad state of affairs. I felt depressed and hopeless alot of the times. I often times felt alone. I will say that because of my own experience, I have made sure that I reach out to those who need guidance and mentoring. Although I get those who are afraid of my youthfulness and prejudge me thinking that because of my age I have nothing to add, I do get several people who value me and what I have to say. I think it strange that many in the old testament were called to ministry in their youth, but I suppose no one really pays attention to those little facts.

This hits true to the core. I have been telling this same thing to people for several years.

The common question is, "why are there no young people in our church anymore?"

The response that I have given is that there is a generation that has failed to pass on the faith. Complacency with "club church" has left us with a generation that is seeking for spiritual answers someplace else, wether it be another religion or the church across town.

Our salvation comes individually, but we live out our faith in community - both growing ourselves and helping to grow others.

True evangelistic preaching will also teach maturity. Everyone in your congregation does not need to be saved. Many of them just need to know how to grow up. Maturing Christians will want to share their faith. People will want what they have, and desire to come to Christ. Maturing Christians will also want to help others grow. So preach maturity as much as you preach salvation.

LEADERSHIP...It all boils down to leadership. I'm convinced that the atmosphere and environment that the leadership establishes determines if the church will be filled with spiritual babies or spiritual giants.

Too often, (in my opinion), Pastors and other church leaders do not like or want to be spiritually challenged or questioned. It almost seems that church leaders find it easier to function in a space filled with infants.

As a dad, dealing with my 2 sons was so simple, fun, and very easy when they were toddlers and preschoolers. However, now that they are teenagers, (and both are taller then me), their questions are more complex, their rebuttals are witty, their gifts more pronounced, and their personalities more firm. Instead of pondering on the days when I could control them with a stern stare, I welcome the challenges that come with their questions and comments. I read, study, prepare, and pray more because I recognize that as I continue to grow as their Dad/leader, they grow as well. The Church is no different!

Jesus wanted his disciples to evolve and grow into men who were full of faith. Jesus’ desire was for growth, not status quo. Pastors, Preachers, and Church leaders should desire the same for their flocks.

If a Church is full of babies, look at the leaders.

sam, i appreciate what you said, and i think you are exactly right. however, i think you said it a little too nicely to get the point across.

the problem is this: hell. (did you REALLY think i was going to say anything else?)

we have equated being "saved" with deliverance from hell. (which is what sam means when he talks about our limited doctrine of "soteriology".)

we have equated the great commission with getting folks "saved" from hell.

and if hell is the conscious, eternal, burning that we've (sadly/ wrongly/ deceivingly/ incorrectly/ perhaps-innocently-but-with-good-hearts) said it is, then we can have no other mission than to go out and get people "saved" from it. this life becomes meaningless for ANYTHING else. what real difference does starting the "kingdom of God" 5, 10, 20, or 70 years ahead of the "thousand-year-reign" and then on into x trillion years of eternity mean? NOTHING. get people "saved" NOW; we'll deal with discipleship later, like when the world ends.

if you get rid of the (false/ stupid/ blasphemous/ Catholic-church-inspired/ simpleton/ preacher-job-security/ televangelist) doctrine of hell, then everything that Jesus calls us to do in THIS life to be transformed into being like Him makes a HEL- uh, i mean, a HECK of a lot of sense.

why is this so hard to see?

yes, i have a one-note song. but you're going to keep hearing it.

mike rucker
http://escroll.blogspot.com

I would agree with some of this article but there are other aspects I would not agree with.

I do agree that the evangelical movement is in dire need of maturing up young believers. Without Sunday School or other modes of educational opportunities, there are few ways a person not brought up in the faith will actually gain a foundation of the faith. Many are biblically illiterate and the church thinks a Sunday morning sermon will train them up in all the ways of the Lord. Malnourishment will eventually set in- weakening the entire system.

When stating that the people over 50 won't mentor or disciple- I think that is too simplistic of a response. The mega- churches and institutionalized churches don't really want "older people" involved. (The church is steeped in age and gender discrimination. why don't we discuss how the church rarely talks about favoritism and preferential treatment?). Nor do they want educated women to be utilized. This puts women over 50 in a double negative bind of marginalization. (The women in their twenties and thirties with a seminary education do have better odds at finding a place but even those odds are small if she stays in the evangelical movement.)

So where do younger women find these sage older women to nurture them in the faith? Where do younger believers find a model of Christian maturity if the church refuses to incorporate women into the fabric of leadership? The seriousness of the situation cannot be over-emphasized. The evangelical churches have a strong chance of losing a whole generation (or more) of women if they continue to discount and underutilize them.

I love to mentor and journey with younger believers. I am 50 and I have a seminary degree as well as being a D.Min candidate. I find it hard to stay inside the confines of evangelicalism. I find it discouraging to be a part of the institutionalized church. I resonate with many young women who have left the local church and are struggling to find a new way to grow and express her faith in community.

And I know many other over 50's, men and women, who would love to have opportunities to share life with those newer in the faith. The complexity of age discrimination has encompassed the church as well as society. Don't fool yourself. Maybe cruising and golfing has replaced vital relationships because the church no longer values wisdom that comes with age.

“A healthy church must be ever-expanding, ever-reproducing. If it is not engaged in changing the world, but remains content in entertaining and edifying itself, it can never expect its congregation to live by faith, when reminiscing about history is all they know church to be.” – Err, excuse me, please! Good big words, however! Where in the world do we see here “a healthy church” “changing the world”, if you don’t mind? Some rare occasions are not systematic, and the church itself is being constantly, and successfully, changed by this world. We have theologies, but not Christ? that's the problem!

"Cheap Grace", "Infant Adults" these should just be oxymorons, but they are real life contradictions. This article just cracks the door on a dark closet in the church. The greatest need is to have a wholistic solution for the problem and not just a few bandaids that appease the soundbite mentality of the day. Growing maturity takes a lot of work on our part and a lot of grace on God's part.

There are lots of answers that speak to pieces of the issue. How do we fix this portion of the greater problem, which is Christian maturity. What we are searching for is a 'World View', a Christian world view. Will we take our world view out amongst those that are not of the faith.This seems to be more of a modern problem, though you reference Paul and the Corinthians. We can understand Paul's lament in an infant Christian church. Much harder for the modern church to excuse itself given our biblical knowledge, information resources, and training capabilities.In the not so distant past Christians took their faith and their talents into the world and produced school systems, hospitals, universities,and social programs to cite just a few examples. At each step they talked about and applied their faith. They talked about having the right foundations/principles/ethics/beliefs as springboards that would bear not just fruit here and now, but fruit unto the generations to come and even eternally. They didn't get it all right, but they stepped out and got themselves dirty, whilst sharing in deed and word,what had called them to be separate from the world yet full partakers in the world. All for the glory of God.

Sam says, "Most of our preaching and "worship" gatherings are bathed in our culture of materialism, narcissism, and the cult of "I". Thus we no longer have a soteriology that flows out of a Christ who calls us to follow as his people. Contemporary evangelicalsim (in its broadest sense) begins with Cartesian individuals and not with God. Therefore there is no way for us to be formed into something outside ourselves--that is Christ. And our individualist language hinders us from grappling with, let alone becoming, the Body of Christ."
Couldn't agree more. For evidence just observe the worship time in most evangelical church gatherings. Most if not all of the songs sung are centered primarily around the theme along the lines of "God is so great b/c He has done great things for me." And that's pretty much where it stops, we are rarely challenged to go beyond giving God praise for dying for me and forgiving me of my sins. Not discounting that but that is where it starts! It's what comes after that that is Kingdom stuff--getting outside of ourselves and becoming the people God calls out into the world. It's quite sad really to see that often the only "Christians" out in the world of our local communities are those who tend to be at the more "liberal" end of the theological spectrum (MHO). And I use the term "liberal" deliberately as they tend to be generous/liberal in their orthodoxy as well as their orthopraxy. Oh that the evangelical church today would learn to be more generous in being the body of Christ in the world. Realizing that there are exceptions to this every where, but I find it discouraging that most attempts within my own local congregation are met with maybe initial excitement but often end with lukewarm or no commitment to get outside of the comfort of "God is so good, he's so good to me" thinking inside the walls and go out into the highways and byways where people might look quite different than I, but where God calls us to be.

I enjoy Gordon's posts very much. This was no exception, but I disagree with the statement that people over 50 don't want to get involved with people under 30 who are asking for mentors. I see just the opposite. People in their 30's don't want to hear from older Christians. They want to talk about what they see here and now, and write a book about it before they fully experience first-hand what it is they're writing about. It is an age of self-expression and e-memoir about life as it happens, rather than reflection and life lessons. I'm not over 50 yet, but I see this age group's voice being shut out.

Much harder for the modern church to excuse itself given our biblical knowledge, information resources, and training capabilities.In the not so distant past Christians took their faith and their talents into the world and produced school systems, hospitals, universities,and social programs to cite just a few examples.

"The Church" and its problems really began when it allowed itself to become used political movements in society that really only wanted votes. Movements had no concern for saving souls, only advancing their political agendas. Older members may have allowed this false "conservative" mindset to permeate their agenda also. They felt they were doing God's work by supporting the "agenda". Some unethical ultra-conservative pastors allowed political views to infiltrate the church house, turning sermons into political speeches. God is neither pro-red or pro-blue, but if you search the scriptures hard enough, He leans socially more liberal than most pastors and congreations, yet on the word being authoratative He's very strict and conservative. That is where people have a problem understanding God, He is both liberal, because He gives freely, but conservative, because He means what he says. Just like Jesus said take "ALL" you have give it to the poor and follow Me. He did not say give some of it away.....I'm not just talking about recent events, I'm also talking about when the decision that the government should take care of widows and orphans and not the church was made.
Daily, I hear many utter their love of Christ out one side of their mouth, then their disdain for their fellowman out the other. This is not the Christianity of Christ, or "My Forefathers". This double-tounged serpent christianty turns my stomach. Living where I do I here a great deal of this type of degradation or others. We must love all of our brothers here on this earth, for we are all sojourners here.
Many talk about the "right to life" but fail to mention the "right to live" after birth; many talk the talk, but do they walk the walk? If you believe in the sanctity of human life is it not all human life? Those that complain about abortion, also threaten to kill Iraqis, Iranians, Egyptians, Saudis, Koreans, Africans, etc.; don't they know God is listening to their words?
I hear a lot of pastors preach about getting the flock involved in ministry. Each person has individual gifts. There are a large number of members that are not attenders that are members in name only. These are sometimes the most vocal and most negative voices in the church and the community. They never want to do anything or spend any money to further the Kingdom. Sometimes it is healthier for the church to allow them to move on or not be involved. All we can do is pray for them, witness to them (for they are lost), and be a friend to them (for they surely need one).

Who are you discipling right now? Is there a group of guys or gals that you refuse to let their faith fail? Bottom line is we can intellectually dissect this and never make any difference or we can disciple people and work to create a movement of maturity in our circles. It is not about a belief in hell or Augustine being off two degrees so we are held captive by his error. It really is about our refusal to do the hard work of making disciples.

It is not an over emphasis on making converts it is an underemphasis on helping people grow to maturity in Christ.

Most every Christ follower I know who has been at faith for some years now still has no one they pour their life into. They say TOO BUSY... DON'T KNOW HOW... but truth be told these are more excuse than reality.

When I discovered that Jesus wanted me to disciple others, I simply responded by saying, Okay. So without all the blame, pontificating about the dysfunction of the church, doctrines we cannot accept, here is the question again. Who are you actively discipling right now? Who do you meet with every week to teach how to love God most and love others as a result? Who are you teaching to do this?

Please speak more about "comfortable and functional in the everyday world where people of faith can be in short supply" in the list of marks of maturity. What do you mean?
Thanks,
Chris Frizzell

With the loss of serious reading by most persons, people don't read and study anymore, they just watch screens. And Bible study mediated by print which brings real understanding of God is also lost at the same time that people have lost the desire to do serious reading. Thus few strong disciples.

When I learned to fly sailplanes as a younger man I soloed after only four hours of instruction. Why? Because the best way for me to "mature" as a pilot in preperation for my test flight was for me to fly with out anyone in the back seat to correct me or save me. My life was, literally, in my own hands. Four hours of soloing, and a test, later and I was a liscensed pilot. By having me solo, my teacher was saying that he had given me all that I needed to fly this plane. Did I know everything he knew? Of course not. Had I continued with flying I would have needed instructors to teach me new things and new aircraft. But again, every new instruction would only mature as I applied them on my own.

Immaturaty in the Body is not because of a lack of leaders, teachers or mentors. It is because no one is being told to solo. If Pators want mature congregants, they must learn when to say "You have recieved enough instruction, take what you have learned and petition God. He will guide you." A scary proposition, but when a believer successfully "solo's", he will no longer be a dependent of the church that is constantly in need of parenting, but will serve as a fellow adult who gives to and recieves from the church, but is dependent on God.

In Christ

Michaael

In the recent months church leaders throughout America have addressed the importance of self-sustaining spiritually mature Christians in conferneces, magazines, books and blogs like this one. I've learned that when God speaks once I listen, when He repeats Himself several times I need to stop, turn around and really listen. This summer I attended the Leadership Summit at Willow Creek Community Church. Recently they published a report of a survey they just completed. The report is called "Reveal, Where Are You?" The results of that research has "rocked Willow Creek Community Church" and I would encourqage you to purchase or borrow a copy of that report to read yourself. The report is very similar to this writing by Gordon MacDonald.
In 1996 I spent six months under the care of a spiritual director. During those six months I had a spiritual growth sprint that was the spring board of my continuing spiritual growth and maturity. My spiritual director taught me to take responsibility for my own growth and relationship with God. Since then I have had a passion for seeing the same growth in other Christians. The problem is that the spiritual growth that leads to spiritual maturity takes discipline - a word most people view as negative today. I want to thank Gordon Mac Donald and Bill Hybes for their courage to share the burden God has laid on their hearts. When we allow God to have His rightful place in our hearts, the Holy Spirit begins to work and the church grows in number and maturity.
Thank you,
Judy

Right on! Exactly the problem and the solution.
That's why my church is aiming at a new vision:
To rescue our world
by raising spiritual fathers and mothers
Who radiate Jesus.
I am convinced this is a God-thing. He convinced me of this personally before I even knew there was a band wagon for it.

Great topic. I remember the mentoring of an assistant pastor, who took me out "visiting" each week before a group discipleship class. Those were times of great growth! Unfortunately, my evangelical denomination has taken a turn in the past decades toward "pastor led", meaning "laity silent." Without the chances to stretch and grow, we've become flabby from non-use of our spiritual muscles. We serve other church members and recite Christian jargon to one another. Those who could be great influencers have been beaten into submission, and there are none but the precious isolated few to provide modeling from a distance. So I guess what you are saying is that I need to be willing to be slapped down for the Gospel if it means mentoring a couple of teens the way I was mentored?

(Sorry this is late--just read the article. FWIW, I am 38.)

I don't think the problem is that "mature" believers over 50 don't want to mentor others. I think there is a real lack of "mature" believers over 50! I do know some mature believers, over and under 50, and they are ALL interested in mentoring others. I also know a lot of immature believers, both over and under 50, MOST of whom have no interest in mentoring others. So, I think we are asking the wrong question.

It's not "why aren't mature believers mentoring others," but "why aren't there mature believers out there who can do so?" (Not that there are none, but that there are far too few.)

Also, when I was younger, I would have welcomed a mentor, but I didn't know any of the older women well enough to ask. They didn't really know me, either. Now, I guess, I'm in the middle--I still don't really know most of the women over 50 (and the ones I know who are really godly have a lot of other women they are already dealing with, who probably need it more than I do).

But on the other hand, I don't really know the younger women, either. I'd LIKE to mentor them, to be involved with them, etc. But how to get to know them, how to offer this, is beyond me.

Don't you think that churches serve infants rather than mature Christians? Mature Christians won't perhaps look for any church, but live their lives among ... people. As you said, no program, etc. There is enough out there in life to live.

I just came from a church meeting where the young people basically kicked the older generation out of it's way. This group is led by a pastor who himself is a baby christian. They will never know maturity, especially when the pastor refuses to be mentored. I liken them to know-it-all teenagers. Are we so in need of men in the pulpit that anyone will do? This man is working on his doctorate and of course thinks he knows more than those he has just pushed out the doors. Yes, I wholeheartedly agree baby christians need mentoring. Bravo to the wise ones that know they need it!

I'm trembling from reading this article. This has been my search for 3-4 years now, to find a spiritual father who can teach me and hold me in love and accountability as I seek to become mature in Christ. Where are these people? I know I'm not alone, many in my generation, the one before and the one after mine seek for spiritual parents to rise up and teach us. We're are tired of the ABC teachings we've gotten and crave to go deeper but need mom and dad to get us there, not to spoon fed us like infants but to love us and guide our paths and pick us up as we stumbled.

What a hot topic this is and one that is dear to my heart. I promised myself a couple of years ago that I would never be so busy that I did not have the time to disciple/mentor someone else one-on-one so that they could become able to stand on their own and feed themselves out of God's Word and eventually disciple someone else.

There are lots of truths stated in this article as well as within the comments. I have to say that I also am not seeing the younger generation wanting someone older to mentor them. To me, the younger crowd doesn't have much interest in getting to know God better through His word but rather through experiential Christianity. Any emphasis as to the importance of bible study will often lend itself to the criticism of it being legalism.

It saddens me to see the lack of mature believers out there. All we can do as mature believers is try to find and impact the "younger" Christians one at a time.

Mr. MacDonald hits the nail on the head. As a 29 year old guy, with not quite half of those years lived by faith, I can attest--no, shout that this is exactly how I perceive my faith today. One that is wandering down a path, knowing the right choices and wrong choices, making most of the wise choices, yet still very, very few present day examples.

This is indeed a big problem as I live abroad and encounter hundreds of other young people like myself filling the expat churches across the globe, filled with fervor and zeal for the Lord, but largely walking in circles. It's sad. And at the moment, I am more deflated then inspired by the outlook.

To the current fathers and those whose sons have recently moved out of the home...BE REAL. Be the man that us young one's want to be, but lacking the 20-40 years of real world experience that you have had. Be the man who tells us straight up, I did this and that when I was young and these are the horrible consequences that came of it. Pray for insight and introspection that will allow you to see the good and bad outcomes of all your past actions. Be the father that asks his son (or man being mentored) the hard questions.

i.e.-
"Do you tithe? Why not? Can I tell you from my life how I've been blessed while tithing, and how I've stumbled when I didn't make it a priority?"

"Do you date often? How do you chose the girls you date? What sort of fulfillment does that bring? Do you touch her? Don't you think God wants it a different way? Let me tell you about the stuff I had to endure because I made bad decisions with girls I dated (or problems that occurred with other women while married)?"

"Do you care about other people? So, you do have a heart for missions? Then what is it about your career/job that has you so enthroned by it that you couldn't just get and spend 3 months serving? You're single aren't you; living on your own? Is it possible the Lord could use you or train you elsewhere than in the workplace at your young age? I made the decision when I was young to do this and this and that...and now I regret this, but I think this other part had a very positive outcome. Do you think your life would show the same results?"

~This is the elder man I want to meet...Not the man who wants to golf with me, ski with me, hike with me, although those are excellent ways to initiate a mentoring relationship.

Lots of fingerpointing going on between the generations. Well, I'd love to have a spiritual mentor in my church. I'm 31 and had a few pop up sporadically: two Christian, one Hindu -- and if one of you even dares threaten to slap my fingers for going outside my faith, there will be a stand-off in the parking lot after I get through with this post, so quit it already. I now have a chance to mentor a few individuals myself even though I still question how I can be seen as a role model. But they sought me out, just as I sought out my mentors.

One of my "kids" is 20 and thinks I'm one of the coolest people she knows. I've known her for a few years and her mom even looks up to me. We've had several deep discussions about many things from spirituality to boys. Another friend of mine (33) is a single parent and went through a very bitter divorce. She was spiritually battered and has, along the way, gone through some healing and become my spiritual apprentice. The third is in her mid-20s and is a singer in our church band. We bonded one night while strolling up and down one of the main streets in town and talking about how we were raised, histories, and how faith came into that.

While I would love to have one of the women in my church stop with the business of "women's ministries" and the spoon feedings that go on in their Bible studies, the conferences, mass meetings, and get some depth in their talks along with actually learning about mental illness, flippant remarks, taking an active part in the community, and stop the gossip chain -- er, prayer chain. I've found that mentoring these young women and reaching out from my experiences has been very beneficial. I'm still learning and get support from other sources.

Just not from my current Baby Boomer church.

I have crossed from third world worshipping Christian to first world worshipping Christian (migrated 7 years ago). This is what I can share, the more life a struggle the more you incline to grow spiritually, in the same token, the more life is easier the lesser the growth spiritually, at least lackadaisically mediocre. Take the cases of the Corinthian Church where the Epistles were addressed and the seven churches in Revelation particularly Laodecia, they thought they are rich and sufficient yet spiritually impoverished,not cold nor hot, yes lukewarm. This is plain complacency in the highest order.(Please read "In Pursuit of God" by A. W. Tozer) After accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, most often than not we just deteriorate spiritually, we stop pursuing Jesus Christ as we owe to do. We can't just wait for His return and do nothing. The ball is always at our court as Christian. We need personal revival!!!