I attended Willow for 20 years and left, not wanting to, due to the Holy Spirit’s leading in my life for a need for victory over consistent sin and fear in my life and not because of any issues with the church that I did not deal with. As a young boy in 85’at Willow’s summer camp I asked God to forgive me for my sins and believed and received Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for me on the cross. I experienced a lot of great moments at Willow. I love all the people at Willow Creek deeply. Love the creativity and passion to reach the “lost.” But, looking back and today I believe Willow Creek is a “Para church” instead of an actual Biblical Church and should be called so due to the lack of discipleship that I now know I experienced and know so many others have experienced.

This is a courageous step for Willow's leadership to admit that a mistake was made for the past 30 years. So many churches are around for hundreds of years and never admit their mistakes. Though, unfortunately, I believe this took too long to realize, especially for a church that has had such an immense influence and because I’ve met so many people over the years that have been disillusioned and hurt spiritually due to the lack of discipleship at Willow.

Going forward I believe the leadership needs to focus more on fearing what God thinks instead of fearing what man thinks. I beleive there should be a formal apology. I've been hurt; many people have been hurt.

Galatians 1:10 – “For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.”
2 Timothy 4:3 - “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions…”

There are two differences between Willow Creek and most of our churches. First, few of us live in the spotlight like they do. Both the fawning fans and the critics who scrutinize everything that is said and done need to back off and let the leadership of Willow follow God's calling for their lives. Second, most of the rest of us just keep doing what we've always done, ignoring any signs of ineffectiveness, either because we are too lazy to change, to proud to admit we might be wrong, or to weary in the struggle to see clearly. It was 20 years ago that I first attended a pastor's conference at Willow, and I continue to thank God for how they have kept me asking the right questions and searching for a better way to fulfill our biblical mandate. I'm proud of the men and women who lead Willow Creek for daring to examine the evidence, yet again, and make course corrections. A lesson for us all in how to lead a prevailing church.

Many in denominations pastoring small congregations will probably take heart. But I think the report is even of more concern for them. It confirms that there is no quick fix for dying of their congregations and it impresses even more the need to adopt seeker strategies. Many of these churches though exist within denominational contexts that are not built for seekers now as much as they were for seekers in the 50's 60's and 70's.
This report says a ton about youth drop off. We do a really good job of formation and getting kids through steps 1-2. Is it any wonder why they would leave. I have found doing ministry more important than bible study. I have found frank dialogue more important than structured prayer.
However, I have really desired liturgy! I am desirous to have worship reflect all of the senses and the need to have shorter sermons and more focus around the table. Speaking in tongues and 'feeling' God doesn't work for me anymore. I want to be 'In Christ' more and redefine my relationship from tha vantage point.

Just wanted to say of Greg and Bill that the heart, tone and approach they take as leaders being open and honest about their journey as leaders is such a gift to all of us. Thank you for being humble, secure and honest people setting an example for leaders everywhere.

There has still been no attempt to define what 'disciple' is or what 'spiritual maturity is'. If you don't know what it is, how will you know if you or your church members have it?

Melody, did you read the book, if not I suggest you do so as it is a good insight not just to WC but to American faith as a whole. BTW this situation was not something caused by WC or seeker churches.

Seems like too many people are seeing the REVEAL project and it's impact on Willow. To me the challenge is to look at my church. What are we doing and how effective are we being? Are we wisely investing God's money so that it has the greatest Kingdom impact? Are we being good stewards of all of the people that God puts in our paths?

Instead of us trying to use REVEAL to prove or disprove our view on the value of Willow, why not use it to raise important questions in our lives and our churches.

Please. This is faux repentance. Nothing has really changed. They still have a commercial focus to ministry. In fact, their approach to handling a newly perceived need in the flock is to create yet another program to address it. That is the only way they know to minister. Their rollout of this new program is way too polished, just as an advertising campaign for a new product. These "smooth words" are engineered to make people fawn, flock, and buy. If you look to Rev. 18 you will find their commercial ways a key attribute of Mystery Babylon before it is destroyed.

The church as we know it, especially in America, is apostate in the extreme. This is why God is calling to His people to come out of her. That is why mature Christians are leaving, because they hear the voice of God calling them.

interesting--wouldlike to see a copy of the new survey hat is being sent to the churches

It's easy to say that the American church "is apostate in the extreme" but when you say that mature Christians are leaving it where, pray tell, are they going to? Abandoning the church isn't a mark of maturity. Frustration, disappointment, anger, confusion...yes. But not maturity.

Faux Repentance? You sound a bit bitter, my friend. I have never been at Willow and have my share of both positive and negative impressions of their work. But it really confounds me when I read such defamatory and condemning remarks. That tone will tend to invalidate any truth you might have to say because many have experienced true spiritual help and guidance from Willowcreek and their "polished" programs. Most of us have flawed methods. Flawed theology. We DO need to seek truth, but mostly, we need to be in relationship with Truth--Jesus himself, who has also been for us "grace upon grace". (John 1).

If you were put under the same method of examination as you seem to put Willow Creek, would you be able to stand to, my brother?

Discipling is critical once they accept Christ. It can't be just a comfort zone of coming in the church on Sunday-(or Saturday) and cruising out the door back to life as normal.
Drawing them to Him, then teaching up-iron sharpens iron.

It has pleased me greatly to see Willow Creek have a change of heart. Between them and Saddleback, many of church leaders have left fervently seeking the Lord & His Word for the latest church growth guru. It is time to bury the "Seeker-Friendly Services", which is unscriptural (God is the One who seeks, draws, and saves) and get back to strong Biblical preaching/teaching. Churches are a mile wide in ministry, but only a inch deep spiritually, and we will have to give an account to God soon. Hoffmantown Church, Albuquerque, NM is just one that has returned back to concentrate on the Word and having a daily, moment by moment Relationship with Jesus. After all, it's "quality that produces quantity" Through exegetical study and delivery with fervant prayer (broken, surrendered, and continually yielded), Jesus living in & through us, is the salt the makes men thirst for more of Jesus and His Word (& not us). If we couldn't save ourselves, who said we had the ability to save the world in & of ourselves. Church leaders need to die to theirselves and their plans/agendas, so we can see Jesus and allow Him to do the living, redeeming work. In what we are doing wood, hay & stumble or is it truly of Christ living in & through us. We Can Know. How is the sentinal of God's peace & joy in your heart ? Or is it based on works? Start with Spiritual Mourning before the Father today. Weep over your sins & the sins of your people and the community.

Very interesting, because in the Parable of the ten Virgins they ALL fell asleep...And I have been praying for an awakening in America.

I have, in my experience, come to see that many christians do not want to uncover just how bad sin really is...both in themselves and in the world we live in. The answer to sin is to bring it into the light of the Light of the World! That is a somewhat fearful experience...but to fear God is the beginning of wisdom (the first steps of making right decisions) and to know God is understanding.

It is natural that people who start by fearing God, come to know Him better as they get older and more mature. But that process in itself can be somewhat revealing.

Most people, including pastors, sadly dont read their bible, and therefore dont know God. Perhaps it is because most of us are 'boomers' and we buy everything. Not many boomers make things for themselves. The church is full of food to buy...cd's, dvds, books, tapes, movies...everything ! The only thing you can't buy is the will to study God's Word on your own...read it....memorize it...let it dwell in you richly.

Consequently, people tend not to want sermons that 'convict' them or make them feel uncomfortable. Perhaps that is why we are so embedded in the culture we live in and not affecting it the way we should. I believe that following Christ is more a matter of discipleship than gathering in groups on Sunday to celebrate nothing!

On Sunday morning, we should be gathering as fellow followers of Christ to celebrate and co-carry the weight of life with Him! If we havent read our bible all week, or prayed, or spoken of hope in Christ to a depressed neighbour, or fed the poor, we have nothing to celebrate.
Songs of encouragement only help those who are looking with hope for encouragement. They will not help those who come with no intention of letting worship change them.

Wake up...church...your feet have fallen asleep! Perhaps from sitting too long?

It's not willows comments that get me everytime they open a can of worms, but the comments from everywhere else.

It is plain foolishness to declare that anyone of us know "the problem" with the Church today. I think that this is why the WC people are trying to pool their thinking with the rest of the world. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but they are asking some of the right questions.

Further, what is a mature Christian? If indeed it is about attaining to the full measure and stature of Christ (Eph 4.13), then we ought to do some of the things that Jesus did - in increasing measure as we mature. It would appear that Jesus was quite obsessed about the lost, and that the whole purpose of his choosing disciples was to make them "fishers of men" as He was.

I perceive "a" real problem in Christian maturity (only one of the problems we have) to be that we seem to make moral living the standard of maturity, rather than the side-effect of it (we think that sinlessness makes us mature, rather than spiritual maturity is the path towards moral holiness).

Further, the dichotomy between discipleship and evangelism is artificial. The Great Commission itself affirms the cyclical nature of discipleship.

Could it be - and I only suggest - that spritual maturity these days is so rare that those who passionately love the lost with Christ's heart recognize that they are in the minority and are forced to rely on programs (clearly not as effective as people) to carry out mass communication of spiritual truth. Interestingly enough, it would also appear that for the most part they seem to develop significantly large ministries with large weekend attendances (further necessitating greater organization). It would also appear they would seem to all agree they are frustrated with their inability to make people grow up in their faith - and while we can reach many with the truth of the implications of the Gospel of the Kingdom, that we struggle with making others to become fishers of men.

Ask yourself a practical question: how many mature believers do you personally know (not merely know of)...and to what extent do you choose to learn from them?

Amen Coach!

I know that Jesus came to seek and save the lost, but he did that on the streets, on their turf, in the world (but not of it.) Search the scriptures. God's people gather to be GOD-OBSESSED, not man-obsessed. There is nothing wrong with doing body-evangelism (programs to present the gospel) but that is not worship... that is evangelism. Jesus told us to make disciples "as we are going" into the world, not to try and attract the world to a religious service. We can do all the "trunk or treats" and "Men's Golf Tournaments" we want to, but we MUST gather together to declare God's praises and to delight in his presence through the word, worship, sacraments, prayer and fellowship.

And yet, I remain thankful for Willow and Saddleback for reawakening the church to the lost world around us, and for caring about the lost. Jesus wept over the lost. Do we?

I love Rick and Bill's heart for the lost. I want a heart like that. I love John Piper's heart for God. I want a heart like that. I love John McArthur's love for the Word. I want a heart like that. I love Chuck Swindoll's heart to feed the sheep. I want that. I love Chris Tomlin's passion for worship. I want that.

Let's learn from the strengths and weaknesses of these "model churches" so that our congregations can become the beautiful spotless bride that Jesus is soon coming for.

Socrates said, "An unexamined life is not worth living."

Willow sets the standard for CONSTANTLY examining all aspects of the faith continuum in stark detail and honesty.

Spiritual maturity means becoming like Christ. I love the definition that Erwin McManus gives about those who want "deeper" teaching." He says, "Identify the deepest struggle you are having.THAT is YOUR 'Deep'. Then, go to the Bible and to God in prayer. See what it has to say about your area of conviction."

BRAVO Erwin! This should bury once and for all the conception that we can construct the perfect discipleship program that will disciple everybody perfectly and on time.

For ANY Christ-Follower or leader to demand confession and reprimand ANY body that is seeking actively to be fully what God intended MAY BE, in itself, grounds for repentance on behalf of the "demander."

BRAVO WILLOW! Press on Bill, Greg, Gene, and ALL the Willow gang! You are shining example for all to see.

this is an interesting thread of comments on the WC's "repentance". i must commend the leadership for their transparency, honesty and humility. after reading the comments; i realise that no matter how much you come clean before ppl; you will still be criticised. that, in essence, is the peril of leadership. finally, i believe the problems that most churches struggle with are rooted in accountability or the lack of. ppl are living such individualistic lives that any hint of mutual accountability sends ppl back into their reclusion again.

What a beautiful example your leadership sets in humility, reflection and mostly your desire to grow and follow the Holy Spirit! You are truly leaders and a great servant to the global church. Thankyou.

Strangely missing from the posts I've read:

Jesus' maturity in faith aimed his life squarely away from the purity codes of his religion and back toward the roots of justice that were in the Torah.

Is it possible that "maturity" means taking on the mind of Christ, not to be a mere disciple, but a steward of God's entire will for the world?

One more: Until the church is willing to critique the culture, until its members are willing to forsake lifestyles that are not Christ-like -- I'm talking consumptive and rushed here -- then all the rest of the "maturity" conversations are hollow.

I look forward to Willow's further maturing in this regard.

Greg and Cally: I just finished reading Reveal. Great stuff. Profound stuff. This is the kind of thing that will change the trajectory of any church whose leadership team is humble enough to receive honest feedback and courageous enough to make changes based on that feedback.

I'm sure you two have looked at other instruments for measuring the heart (e.g., Christian Life Profile, Barna's metrics, etc.), but you may also be interested in some of the online surveys at www.Assess-Yourself.org, since these surveys estimate people's spiritual condition (Christian character, love for God, worldview, etc.).

Thanks again for your ministry. I look forward to to seeing where God takes this!

I am a pastor in Arlington heights IL...in the back yard of Willow Creek. I am personal friends with many people on staff and know that most have hearts looking for Gods path for the future of The Church. Good folks

I find it unfortunate that many on here are taking the opportunity to jump on Willow for its honest attempt to continue following God into the next 50 years.

I have founded The Shema Movement, a network of local communities across the country,focusing on serving and loving in our local neighborhood. Our communities dont have a "service" to draw people to...they do this drawing thru loving and serving local people.

Needless to say..we "look" very different from Willow. Despite our differences in methods we have a common Lord and a common Spirit. Perhaps people need to remember that God has led Willow just like He has led their church...and my communities.

This should not be a power struggle in the American church...seeker or discipleship? "deep" or shallow teaching? Traditional or contemporary? Havent we learned that bickering and tugging back and forth over our personal preferences leads nowhere????

Lets end this "I told you so" nonsense and get back to work serving The Kingdom of Heaven.

Personally, I am excited about what God is doing at Willow Creek...how can I not be excited about what my God is doing? How can I not be excited about fellow Christians doing their best to be The Church.

Kudos to Willow...Kudos to God!

jimmy spencer
Founder The Shema Movement

I am a pastor in Arlington heights IL...in the back yard of Willow Creek. I am personal friends with many people on staff and know that most have hearts looking for God's path for the future of The Church. Good folks

I find it unfortunate that many on here are taking the opportunity to jump on Willow for its honest attempt to continue following God into the next 50 years.

I have founded a network of local communities across the country,focusing on serving and loving in our local neighborhood. Our communities don't have a "service" to draw people to...they do this drawing thru loving and serving local people.

Needless to say..we "look" very different from Willow. Despite our differences in methods we have a common Lord and a common Spirit. Perhaps people need to remember that God has led Willow just like He has led their church...and my communities.

This should not be a power struggle in the American church...seeker or discipleship? "deep" or shallow teaching? Traditional or contemporary? Haven't we learned that bickering and tugging back and forth over our personal preferences leads nowhere????

Personally, I am excited about what God is doing at Willow Creek...how can I not be excited about what God is doing? How can I not be excited about fellow Christians doing their best to be The Church.

Kudos to Willow...Kudos to God!

jimmy spencer
Founder The Shema Movement
The Shema Movement

I would want to hold to a powerful God being in complete control. The Holy Spirit can speak into every corporate and individual christian circumstance. If it was a big issue to God, then God would have brought the issue to a head.God has used the existence of Willow Creek to inspire many to aspire to more and for me that is a great and powerful witness that Jesus is Lord.That Willow Creek are still asking "what would Jesus do" and "how would Jesus do it" is to their credit. May God bless them and continue to make them fruitful. WWW.OVERCOMERSOUTREACH.CO.UK

I was recently speaking with a man who is a pastor, friend and mentor to my husband and I and we were discussing this idea of what does a spiritually mature christian look like. I loved his insight into this question - he feels that the more "mature" (to use our modern terminology) a person becomes the more they serve. As we each strive to become more and more like Jesus we should begin to emulate His sacrifice of life to all mankind. So ultimately the "church" in general should be leading people into a life of service where they are being led by the Holy Spirit to pour out into those around them.

We seem to have penchant for devising the perfect mousetrap. Willow thought they had one and now adds the words that it is not yet complete. Every system out there is not yet complete and yet somehow there is a desire to find one, build one or already have one. Why systems take center stage is perhaps best expressed with the building of Babel.

Gene 11:4 (NKJV) And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top [is] in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."

Their determination to be associated with a name and a building and not being scattered was clearly not pleasing to God. What changed God's mind?

Very few seem to be asking 2 fundamental questions: Why do we need a name? Why do we need a building?

As a long-time believer with Bible foundation, I have benefited from Willow's inspiring Ministry in the area of recognizing gifts and learning to use them.

One thing I did notice was the fact that in large churches, there seemed to be only a small group of people doing real mission work, and other projects are directed by leaders only. Most members seem content to be participants in limited ways.

In a more spiritually more vigorous church, more believers need to be encouragedand equipped to take initiatives in responding to God's call for their own lives and go for various missions in the world. People should not be treated as babies forever! And it's not just the leaders who have a corner on God's commission for them.

Let's not deprive each other of the fulfillment that can come from self-feed, self-propelled faith walk and service in the power of God's spirit!

I've always been plagued by trying to reconcile the 'seeker friendy' model with Romans 3:11 and Ephesians 2. If no one is able to truly seek God out of his/her human nature, who is the 'seeker friendly' movement playing to? In like manner, how does a dead person (spiritually speaking) come to seek God?

The goal of the 'seeker friendly' church seems to be to bring every unchurched Harry and Mary through the doors, not just provide an atmosphere in which that person truly seeking God because he/she is being drawn by the Father (John 6:44)can find the Savior.

It is surely not necessary to intentionally leave out that which might be 'uncomfortable'(essential to being seeker friendly)when the Holy Spirit is doing the drawing.

I have no ax to grind with any particular organization, however I believe it grieves the Holy Spirit terribly when we change the pure message of the gospel with something less as we try to be the Holy Spirit and draw people ourselves.

Willow who?

He is risen

Although many may feel that I am not qualified to make a comment about Willow Creek because I am not a Protestant but a Catholic convert of 5 years. I think that Willow Creek has provided a place for true seekers who would not have repented and became Christians had they gone to church with less then a seeker friendly model. It is truly unfortunate that some have taken this opportunity to pound Willow Creek over the head saying "I told you so." Who are any of us to judge when and how God works and it takes alot of nerve and integrity to admit that they got some of it wrong. Bill Hybels is a genuine Christian by admiting that Willow Creek had it wrong he is allowing God to work to make Willow Creek a strong Christian fellowship, although it does not appear that Willow Creek had everything wrong due to the fact that there are good believers that came out of the Willow Creek ministry which has influenced a plethora of good leaders to model their churches after Willow Creek and have caused true conversion in the lives of sinners.

Repentence is truly a gift and hope God continues to be glorified through this. One thing I would like to ask Greg is why there seems to be so much emphasis on asking the "flock" what they want. I think scripture makes it clear what the flock needs. I think this might have been the reason for the "mistake" (sin) in the first place. I'm tired of being presented with this program and that program or with this book or that book. All those things only distract from time in the Word. There is no substitute for resting in the Word of God each and every day. Simply teach us to fight the good fight through repentence and by cherishing Christ above everything. Peace.

I commend Willow. What this church is finding, is to be true for every church ... for us to develop a self feeding program. In the end days, Amos told us there'd be a famine of the Word of God. It is now our responsibility to break that famine ... NOT by discussing it into the background, nor by debating it into confusion, but applying it as soon as we can. May it be for us all to enter the University of the Holy Spirit through a daily, consistent quiet time. The Divine Mentor will be faithful to direct us.

Wayne Cordeiro

Paul said in 2 Timothy that ALL Scripture is useful for teaching, training, correcting and rebuking in righteousness so that we can do good works. Church these days focuses on some teaching and some training, but not deep enough. How can one become a disciple of Jesus though only a Sunday morning service? How long is the message/sermon...30 minutes? That means you'll have about 26 hours of teaching in a year...just over 1 day out of 365 days. If we are to become a disciple, we need a lot more than that. Jesus spent 3 years...so roughly 26000 hours with his discples. If a church is going to be seeker-sensitive, it needs disciple-sensitive sermons, too, whether that's on a different night or something else. Once we learn what God says and how to understand it, we can boldly and confidently go forward to do the works that God has planned and designed for us. You don't have to wait until you're a Bible scholar to do anything, but you need to be growing from glory to glory in His Word, and not everyone knows how to do that on his/her own. Just like an NHL hockey player - he still needs a coach to teach him and direct him, and he needs a trainer to show him how to practice and develop his skills. Why doesn't the Church get that?

The other thing is that people are so worried about comfort and programs and feel-good messages that we don't get the correcting and rebuking we NEED. I remember Jesus calling Peter satan, I remember Jesus turning over tables in the Temple court, I remember Jesus calling the religous leaders white washed tombs and hipocrites.

In Acts, the early church got together to listen to the apostle's teaching, to eat together, fellowship together, and to pray. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. What has happened to the church today? It seems all about programs and fun and entertainment. We need to mentor and disciple people so they can go and Evangelize at their homes and workplaces, to bring them to church to have the Teacher teach them and the Pastor love them and walk alongside them. The Prophet can either for-tell them something or forth-tell them something that God wants them to share and the Apostle will oversee it all. That's the five-fold ministry in action. That's using the gifts God has given us.

Willow is great in that they are a resource to other churches. They're also great in that they are organic in that they move and grow and aren't stagnent. They can admit where they are wrong and move into the solution. The dissatisfaction in the church is with those who want to grow. They've admitted they need to teach people in the beginning to feed themselves and that's great. But they still need to address those who are past the "new Christian" stage who still want more. We need to grow deep not wide.

Probably the saddest part of Willow Creek's new awareness is that they somehow feel the need to do everything and keep everyone happily feeding from their trough and blessing them by having them pay for the privilege.

1Cor 3:6 (NIV) I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.
7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

Greg makes a big deal about using their people's money wisely. I have no idea how the early chuch managed without paid local pastors Acts 20:34,35 or buildings for that matter.

That Willowcreek didn't point people to their need to grow up without becoming a willowcreekite is more a statement about being ego-centric than anything else.

Statistics constantly reveal that we evangelical churchs are not reaching the pre-christian at a rate to offset population growth. In other words, we are doing a poor job of fulfilling the Great Commission - MAKING DISCIPLES. It takes guts for Willow to admitt their "failure" in making disciples. I think we all are share in this "failure." Personally, I am looking forward to what Willow brings in the future. This cultural shift in their local community will bring pivital movement in all Christendom. It just shows that if you are always carying a baby around, it will never learn to walk. If we don't teach Christians how to come before the living God, how to pray, how to hear from God, how His word applies to their life, for themselves we have failed in making disciples. Just look at your Corporate worship. Churches are filled with people who want someone to worship for them.

Why is it so difficult to see Jesus' life as the model for discipleship? 3 years of close communion with a few friends and then getting out of the way. Everyone says they want to be more like Jesus but then refuse to do what He did.

The modern discipleship model of pulpiteering keeps people at a nice safe distance and sadly the pulpiteer never gets out of the way.

My heart goes out to you folks…My family and I used to go to a Willow-Creek-like church, and we ran into all the typical disappointments… I would encourage anyone who is not satisfied with his or her church life to experience the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. My family and I recently converted to the Orthodox faith. I no longer feel that I am alone. We no longer go to church to be entertained, emotionally charged, or intellectually stimulated (although these things do happen occasionally). We now go to church to experience the Living God and worship Him in spirit and truth. A great place to start is http://ancientfaith.com

I didn't find the results of Hybels' and Hawkins' research surprising, but instead was surprised to hear their analysis regarding the mature Christians who are dissatisfied with the church, those who say that they want "more meat". They came to the conclusion that the church has failed this group by not teaching them how to feed themselves. I wonder if that is an accurate analysis across the board.

Having been a Christian for many decades and considering myself as mature in my faith, I personally am experiencing a season of greatest intimacy with Christ and yet I am also experiencing one of the most dissatisfying relationships with my church. I have been fortunate to have had quite a few Bible teachers/pastors--either in my church or in parachurch organizations--foster this growth and ability to feed myself. My frustration with the church is that they don't recognize that we mature Christians have turned around and become "pastors" in our own arenas--in the workplace, in the home, in the gym, in meetings, at school, etc. Because they don't recognize this, there isn't the support and encouragement that we "marketplace pastors" need to continue our jobs of not carrying our light under a basket. As a result there is dissatisfaction, or better put, there is dissection or separation of who we really are and we can easily become a non-workplace Christian and an at-home Christian only. It takes a lot of effort--at least for me--to fight against this desire. We all come to church hoping that we will get help to make us whole again (prevent us from fracturing into pieces) and instead we get asked to help with church programs. Granted, these jobs help us to see how we can "work in the Spirit" rather than "work in the flesh", but it still takes effort and encouragement to translate it to the marketplace where we spent the majority of our lives.

So, I'm not sure if Hybels needs to "fundamentally change the way we do church" so much as he and the staff need to fundamentally change their viewpoint of the people in the congregation. They need to answer the question "What do people need to do to become more intimate with God", rather than "What can church do to for its customers to grow spiritually?" Not too much difference in those two questions, but if you project 30 years out from the inception of each, they will look very different from each other as they enact their goals or mission statements. While both set their foundation on God, one is people focused and the other is organization focused.

I'll be curious to watch how Willow Creek--and many of the churches in the nation--change as a result of this "new" data.

Jesus spoke and taught with boldness and truth. He never diluted his teachings to make them appeal to a larger crowd. The problem with reaching "seekers" by giving them "what they want" is that they don't necessarily want what is right or wholesome. Remember, Pontius Pilate gave the crowd what they "wanted" and that was to condemn Jesus to death.

We watched a WCA-affiliated church implode in central Oklahoma and it has damaged the community of Christ-followers to the point where it will take years to recover. It was a public debacle that was difficult to watch as it played out in the local newspapers and on the internet.

Reaching out to the un-churched is great and we must all remember the Great Commission. But beware of the slippery slope of confusing felt needs with authentic spiritual truth and growth.

Can someone (anyone) find out why the "Reveal" book is not available on Amazon.com? I have searched ... can't find it there.

The Hybles "confession" is getting a lot of attention lately. I thought you would appreciate what God told me about this and the words He gave me in response to an email chain I received. This may not apply to you, it definitelty does to me:

The seeker church to a new Christian is like a dating relationship. At first, its all lovey dovey liver quiver. Everything is new and exciting. But as the excitement wears off, it takes effort to make the relationship work. My complaining about not being "spiritually fed" is just like the husband who plops himself down in the lazyboy while watching his poor wife slave all over him, the kids and the house. The way for me to grow spiritually in any church, seeker or 'traditional', is to get off the lazyboy and start loving my church as Christ loves her; sacrificially with agape love. Its time to stop complaining and expecting my church to meet all my spiritual needs and instead, start loving and serving. And inspire others to join me.

Anyway, that's what God told me and it hit me right between the eyes.

Good for Willow for having the courage and transparency to step out and try to be better. All this arm-chair pontificating that is going on by churches in their own lazyboys is very sad and divisive.

But, what if a person after they have been saved (especially a child) has not much of an idea that they need feeding whether self-feeding or feeding from teachers (pastors) who are commanded by Scripture to preach the Word to the flock and to spur on the church body to be in the Bible daily? One example is 2 Timothy 4:1-2.

I believe the issue being addressed here is that "innocent" people are inadvertently led to believe that they are "ok" spiritually because they show up to programs or just show up to services. This issue is about leadership following through and taking responsibility. I see here in the posts and elsewhere a hidden voice of awakening that affirms and adds to the findings of "Reveal."

Matthew 25:31-46 is clear and unambiguous. The Willow Creek "model" falls short since it distorts the definition of "serving".

"If we can serve them better, the evangelistic potential is enormous, based on our findings."

Forget the numbers and the research findings and just read, preach, teach, & obey the Word of God. The Bible is and has always been "relevant". It seems like church is just based on research rather than the Word of God.
How about just doing what Paul exhorted Timothy to do. 1 Timothy 4:13-"Give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine."
Speaking of "seeker-sensitive" where is that in the Bible? Which apostle was martyred because he was seeker-sensitive? The fact is the apostles were martyrd because they preached the cold hard truth of Jesus Christ. And when they preached the Word, some believed and some rejected Jesus. Others however were "offended" and therefore Christians were persecuted.

Greg Hawkins sings a different tune about his stance on repentance on his own blog

http://blog.revealnow.com/reveal/2007/10/the-truth-about.html

He says Willow Creek is not repenting because to do so would be to admit sin and there is no sin here just continuous learning. Has anyone else found that comment. And if so, why the change in response?

"The Leadership Journal blog started with this question, and the answer is NO. Repenting, in my mind, deals with confessing sin. There is absolutely no sin involved in this deal. Just good, old fashion learning. What you are seeing is a set of leaders coming to grips with some new facts and deciding to do something about it. This is nothing new for us here at Willow."

I really don't know what to make of this. After however long Willow Creek has been in existence, 30 years (?), people haven't learned to read their Bibles and it's not a sin?

Dear Greg and Bill, I have watched both of the videos that were posted from article "Willow Creek Repents?" and I and others are wondering - what scripture has provide insight on a new direction? If the Church leadership does not find Scripture useful for correct, how can we expect those in the pew (or stadium seats) to do the same?

Our society has become increasingly narcissistic and self-centered. It isn't surprising that many people in our society confuse entertainment with the true gospel. Unchurched "Harry" and "Mary" seem more like fickle surburbanites rather than the people of the general population that Christ wanted to reach.

We have no indication that Jesus and His disciples used popular music to win over the crowds. When the rich young ruler chose to hang on to his wealth rather than follow Jesus, Jesus didn't yell "Wait - we can negotiate!". Jesus didn't launch into a popular song and dance to convince him.

The heavy use of drama in the seeker sensitive setting is ironic. Jesus was quite familiar with dramas and theatre in his day. One of the most frequently used terms by Jesus was "hypocrite" - which means "actor".

Hmmm. I anticipate a series of books, DVD's and costly seminars and conferences that are all designed to help churches interpret this new "data".

In the midst of all the buzz about church effectiveness, I did try to take time to be STILL and HEAR GOD. I share with you the following:

1. What does God require of us? Justice, mercy, and a humble walk with Him.
2. When fishermen and tax collectors followed Jesus, people see a difference and they say "They have been with Jesus..."
3. Do we look more like Jesus now that we have done many glorious ministries? Perhaps our leaders enjoy LEADING too much... Perhaps the average seeker or Christian needs to learn to BE LED by JESUS HIMSELF!

What is God's calling for you, for me, in His greater world in need of light and life? He will show us and guide us if we stop long enough to listen and obey with a passion.

This much ado about REVEAL will also pass.
May we catch the real train with Jesus as the captain.

I am a living breathing example of a person who has attended Willowcreek for twenty years, has utilized many of the programs, attended the weekend service and New Community, served faithfully, and has never felt I reached the status of fully devoted follower or the level of maturity I have longed for in my spiritual walk. For years I have been telling my mentors at Willowcreek that I didnt feel fed spiritually, that many of the messages didnt have enough substance and a number of messages seemed like reruns to me. While attending Willow I have gone from having a GED education to a Masters Degree so I dont think Im unteachable, yet something isnt right in that my life has never reached that point of spiritual faith that as Hybels puts it I became a “Self Feeder”. I was reading the bible daily, serving weekly, making myself transparent to the people who were leading me, being accountable, making every attempt to submit to Jesus, and it seems like I never accomplished the second step of the twelve steps in being able to turn my life and mind over to God no matter how many years I prayed that God would take control of my mind and life. Now I sit here lost in feeling that the church said oops, but what do I do with this new information? Do I start over at Willow and hope for the best this time around? Do I start over somewhere else? Do I just give up on the church altogether? I feel like a failure and dont know what to do. Where do I go from here?

When a son works at being a son their is always going to be a sense of failure. Creating programs and performances is a strange way to embrace being a son. The question of what can I do, is a venomous poison seeking to snuff out the heart of who Jesus is. The son of God. He died that we might be like Him, sons, not performers on a stage.

Anthony, Church is not necessarily where we get "fed," it’s where we worship God. Sometimes we have a good feeling, which is great, but it’s not the main thing. The best place to find God for yourself is with your Bible open--"Father-God, what do You have for me today in Your Word?" "How can I be who You designed me to be?" Journaling can help too--it's easier to be honest on paper!
As for God taking control, could it be He’d rather restore to us the control of ourselves? We submit to Him (which protecting us from the enemy who would hi-jack us!), He returns our wills to us, strengthened and empowered to follow through on our choices. In fact, the last descriptor of the Fruit of the Spirit is "self-control" (Gal. 5:23): when the Spirit is "in control," I am more truly myself, more really my own master, than any other way. God takes us more seriously than we take ourselves. He accepts our choices as though they were our reality (a description of "justification"), then He works with us to *make* our choices reality ("sanctification"). It's that simple and beautiful.
We are called to freedom (Gal. 5:13.) which is the foundation of God's government in the universe! He could have created us to operate by instinct like the creatures; instead He gave us conscience and as much freedom as possible and the Holy Spirit to empower us. The “wider view” helps everything to be more significant!
Keep studying the Bible and follow where God leads you through its teaching. You’ll be glad forever!

I am curious - Greg Hawkins and others wrote the book, they're promoting the book, creating a lot of buzz... This is undoubtedly generating a sizable amount of revenue. Where is the money going?