On the surface, I would say "AMEN" to the thought of pastor's being more competitive. However, the rules of engagement and what actual results look like many times cannot be compared to business. A typical business is not obligated to care for people when times are lean. You cannot just slash a division in one five minute meeting. You cannot motivate, as stated, with money. People have to be led by vision and altruism. So, we do need to be about results, however simply looking at a budget or attendance are not the only indicators. Changed lives need to be seen and this takes more than giving bonuses or threatening lay offs. Where leadership when it is good can fit in any setting, business management does not necessarily apply to the way of running a church as much as some would like to say it does.

"They make decisions too slowly and do not care enough about results."

Interesting point, because I think many in the Non-profit world feel that it has the same problem with the Committees and Boards of Directors in their fields - I would venture to say that this is more true in the church than in the general non-profit world.

Peace,

This is an interesting subject. Leadership is one of concern in both the secular world and the sacred world, but does one lead the same way in both fields? Jesus, as we see him in the scriptures made quick decisions, and spoke harshly, to people, as well as showing very significant care as well. In a time when many speak of good leadership as giving people what they want, those who lead by polling, but in reality, the mases are not always right, if ever. I hold a great deal of suspicion concerning congregational votes as a means of understanding the will of God.
At the end of the day, I think Jack is right, we, pastors, exercise a different style of leadership than the corporate world needs. I don't think it makes what we do lesser. At the same time, I'm not sure that what they do is necessarily righteous and in need of emulation. Thanks for the thoughts,
Kevin

I've worked at Mr. Welch's GE for several years, and frankly, I couldn't care less what he has to say about this.

Everybody holds him up as some kind of management genius, but the only thing he's ever managed is GE. And GE is unique in size, market niche, and history. A lot of the lessons he learned here just don't apply other places.

That being said, I do get frustrated that people seem to think it's okay to do a shoddy job at ministry work, even if they would never do that at they paying job.

John Piper's great book, "Brother's, We Are Not Professionals" offers a great perspective on this. What pastors are called to is radically different from what CEOs are called to...if we dare call what CEOs do a "calling" in the same sense.

This is not to say that the professional world has nothing the church can learn from. But I think what is has to learn has more to do with mechanics (like facility management, administrative support, etc.) and less to do with leading and feeding the bride of Christ.

I think your comments on #4 above are spot on and a good reminder for us. Thanks for sharing.

Good comments. I would argue that the role of the pastor is not to control what people do in the sense of a bottom line, as we see in business. I would also say that the role of a pastor is to empower people to serve in the world in such a way that people are drawn to Christ. As Christians, we are dependent on the work of the Holy Spirit and we are also to be equipped for the works that God has prepared in advance for us to do. Sometimes that is hard to measure. Is it about the number of baptisms this year? Is it about confessions of faith. Or is it about how many of our newly converted members have shared their faith with a friend or co-worker and/or led a friend or co-worker to a commitment of faith. Or is it just about faithfulness, no matter how effective we are? Is being ineffectively faithful good enough. I am asking myself these questions and I am trying to imagine that they are being asked of me as I look the LORD in the eyes. For me, changed lives that end up empacting other lives for change is emerging as a good measure of a healthy church, the kind of church where I would want to serve.

Blessings,

Dave

An interesting topic. I'm not sure I would hold Welch up as a great business leader for anyone to emulate though. I would recommend a book by Peter Drucker though - "Managing the Non-Profit Organization" - as a good one for pastors to read.
I think that some pastors would make great managers in the business world. I watched my father take over a hospital (still a non profit but much more a business) and manage it out of Chapter 11 while still pastoring a church full time. I'd like to see Jack Welch pull off that double play. Oh and my Dad was a widower with four kids to raise alone at the same time. Is he exceptional? Perhaps. But I think that a lot of pastors have great managerial skills.

Context makes a huge difference. I was called to leave the business world and pastor a church. Overall, leadership and management skills are different in those contexts but there are tools that can crossover to either arena. But also each business and each congregation is distinctive and often requires a different focus and skill depending on the context.

And yes a pastor's role is vastly different then a CEO (unless one has structured a congregational hierarchy in a corporate model, which I guess has a place and ministry). Congregations are programmed to be programmed. In this context, someone has to manage it and usually it falls to the person who is paid to do it (pastor). Then when does a pastor help a person hear God's call and send them out with a blessing to do it?

In Christ,
Mark E

This question must also be asked: Are Pastors Collaborative Enough? The issue here is effectiveness, not competition. We must confront the lie that people do their best when working against, rather than with each other. And while competition can improve efficiency, this alone doesn't guarantee effectiveness.

Working in the military has similar challenges (motivating people beyond money), and indecision and lack of commitment can have devastating consequences. Many military leaders would also not cut it in the business world, nor is this necessarily a bad thing! (Neither do bean-counters belong on the battlefield.)

Church leaders needs to draw from the full diversity of NT metaphors - commercial and domestic household, priesthood, family, even army - to cultivate faithfulness.

I pastored for about 20 years and am now an executive at a marketing firm. At the risk of sounding arrogant I've experienced success in both areans. For me I don't think it's been about competitiveness but rather a desire for quality. In both roles I've also paid careful attention to the people I've led. I think the idea of leading a church the same way you lead a business is quickly becoming undesirable, especially to a younger age group. The church is neither a business nor a consumer product. I'm afraid at some point we became confused and started seeing it as both.

I can't help but notice that some of the leaders with the most vibrant churches think and talk like business people. Andy Stanley and Bill Hybels come to mind. I think what they have that many pastors lack is the disciplined thinking it takes to focus their church's efforts and to make the difficult decisions. I've seen too many pastors who are crippled by the need to make everyone happy. The end result of this handicap is a lack of focus and a leadership by consensus approach that is not leadership at all.

That said, the corporation's singular goal is to maximize shareholder value (make money). The decisions required to maximize financial outputs at times necessarily conflict with the church's expressed goal of creating a different kind of output (disciples, a better world, etc.). While some of the same principles apply, it is dangerous to assume that an adoption of the corporate mindset will lead us to spiritual prosperity. We must think critically about this, taking the good and leaving behind those elements that would tranform an organism into a machine.

I agree with Jack Welch that most pastors would make lousy business people. I think that's a good thing. Think about it the other way, would you really want to be a congregant in Pastor Jack's church?

Interesting topic. After giving leadership within congregations and a denomination for 15 years, I transitioned to a role in the corporate world with a global software company.
I coach our leaders and execs and have front row seat to their challenges. Chief among the challenges faced by these leaders is being too competitive. This is why concepts like EQ and collaborative conversation and dialog are in such high demand among corporate leaders. You don't need a whole of competition to make it, but you do need a whole lot of collaborative and communicative skills.
Honestly, I think Welch may have taken an instance and called it a trend. Perhaps the one NFP leader who came into GE lacked ambition or drive or work ethic or whatever we want to call it. But to say that NFP leaders in general (and/or pastors in general) are not competitive enough is way off base, in my opinion.
The role of competition in the life and ministry of a pastor is an important topic. I think pastors ought to be competitive, but that the competitive spirit needs to be aimed properly: not at other churches, other leaders, etc., but at sin, death and the devil.
One final word... I thought the interview with Jim Collins that Leadership did last year had good insights on "the business of leadership" within the church and other NFPs.

Interesting. As a pastor with a few years under my belt I found myself, in God's providence, working at a major corporation.

Lacking a business background (I was a science major) I felt that I was at a disadvantage for the few months. After I learned the ropes I simply outworked and out-hustled most of my co-workers.

I found some managers to be rather incompetent. I told one "that if I managed my church like he managed me I wouldn't have a congregation." Another, a professed Christian, lacked basic integrity in his personnel decisions. All over the corporation I saw cronyism. After five years I was able to get back into ministry full-time after planting a church while simultaneouly working full-time in the corporate world.

I don't think that the question is whether pastors are competitive enough. People from the non-profit world need to see that the bottom line in business is still making a profit. They need to be ready to work in an environment with different rules and different criteria that define success.

my first reaction when i read this yesterday was that welch is the last person who should be giving advice to the church.

but in the end he's simply reflective of our times. there are very few cover stories anywhere of the guy on the corner solo-pastoring a church of 100, yet that's overwhelmingly the situation, at least in the US. neutron jack had plenty of underlings to delegate to, and he took their heads off if they didn't deliver. the solo pastor has only volunteers, and cannot punt them no matter how much he might like to.

the church i attended this past sunday had all the latest and greatest video presentations and other obviously market-sensitive trappings, plus a bulletin that listed no less than ten pastors.

that's why we have stories about what jack welch thinks. it's not news, but bears repeating: the church, unfortunately, has bitten the same celebrity-apple as the rest of america...

My knee-jerk reaction to this post was overwhelmingly negative. I'm over that now.

I once heard Jack speak to a large audience in Fairfield, Connecticut, and will never forget this singular piece of advice he gave to a first-year MBA student. After listening to her nervous plea for the best advice he could give her about business (and life), Jack shot back, "Don't be a dabbler." I think he'd say the same thing to pastors. In fact, I know he would, because once Jack was done with his rant on dabbling and dabblers that night, he concluded with this prescient admonition: "And if you're going to be a priest, be the best damn priest you can be." If that is in fact his best advice, then I think it supersedes anything else he might have to say to or about non-profit leaders.

I just wanted to say I've enjoyed your comments. Thanks to all of you. It is especially interesting to read the comments from business people who have become pastors and vice-versa. I look forward to reading more comments as they are posted.

Grace and peace,
andy

Before Jack Welch became CEO of GE he consulted with Peter Drucker. Drucker once told Rick Warren... ""Drucker told me: 'The function of management in a church is to make the church more churchlike, not more businesslike." Maybe Welch's miss on this issue is that he thinks we want to create the Church into a business rather than into a church. (Source: http://biz.yahoo.com/special/drucker05_article1.html)
I do believe that Welch is correct, however I wouldn't want to make it our goal as the church to become more like businesses. I suspect Jesus might have a difference with our system of capitalism as it exists today as well.
Let's figure out how to succeed in making disciples for Jesus Christ, not how to make more money than the next guy.

I dont know Jack..ha however I do know that he has a great company with a bottom line. Whether or not the church will admit - its run like a business...Jesus just did it better than we do. We have a bottom line...whatever that may be in your church...we all use strategies to accomplish that goal. It might be to make all memebers of your church happy, or reach the unconnected people of the community, or be the biggest church in town....everyone has a business plan. I dont know Jack but you can learn anything from anyone.

Reading your comments made me review my own professional journey. Graduation from a Bible Institute was followed by four years as a solo pastor. Plans for a graduate degree in ministry fell apart and I pursued anything I could find in the corporate world. Twenty five years later--I'm still there, even after attempts to return to ministry. (Some churches don't appear to be any more comfortable with a pastor with a corporate background than corporations are with someone from the non-profit world.)

Peace with this unexpected journey has come by realizing a call to ministry is no greater than a call to be a corporate division leader or an office manager. Are my spiritual gifts less operative when I lead a corporate training session in dependence on the Holy Spirit than when I teach the Scriptures with the same reliance on God for results?

I confess my years in corporate leadership have made me less tolerant of teaching that misses the practical significance of a text. I cringe at the lack of leadership and ineffective management I've seen in some large churches.

Perhaps the profit/non-profit dichotomy is just another iteration of our struggle to integrate what we call sacred with what we perceive to be secular.

Loved the discussion. All the different view points, etc...

The comment that really resonated with me was where someone said it seemed that Jack may have taken an instance, and called it a trend.

I also think that ministry leaders who have never worked in the business world need to stop generalizing the conditions in the business place. As a former pastor, who still pastors people and still actively volunteers in ministry and leadership, I am currently employed at a Fortune 20 company. We work in what is called a "matrix" enviornment. This matrix describes how the relational and decision making climate is. It is not vertical, it is based on respect, communication, and relationship. There are times when a decision is made by one individual down the chain, but that is the exception, not the rule. They don't even take votes in most committees. It is simply a consenus conversation.

To be honest, it has surprised me. I expected more structure, more vertical decision making. I have found that those who are successful (definition - get things done without walking on people in the process), are those who have excellent communication and interpersonal skills as well as having a clear focus on the goals and needs of the organization, rather than themself. much more could be said.

To comment directly to Welch. I agree that most NP leaders wouldn't cut it in business, but I disagree with the "why". In my mind, the "why" is that there are way too many lazy, unfocused, and cowardly leaders in churches today. Sorry if that is too raw for you, but that is my viewpoint.

Let's not forget that the shepherd has a rod for a reason...