I'm sure there will be no end of opinions here, divided (stereotypically, I would imagine) down both sides.

I know you brought it up to spark discussion, so my two cents is this: It's your conscience, man. You've already articulated the pro and con arguments. You have to decide.

"whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things." (philippians 4:8)

I cannot see any justification for a Christian to be playing GTA. There are times when a Christian may be free to view things that are violent or sexual in nature for the sake of education or art or moral story-telling. But this video game does none of these things, and in my opinion it is indefensible. I don't know if you have to confess it at church, but you do have to confess it to the Lord and then give it up.

Also, why should our consciences be ok with violence and mayhem? They shouldn't. I am tired of many Christian's relative obsession with sex, while silent on other forms of human degradation.

And frankly, I take issue with video games in general. I don't think that the concept of a video game is bad in itself, but they do seem to be very difficult to enjoy in moderation, and they take us away from vastly more important things like interacting with other people and with nature.

The first time I saw GTA being played was by a group a police officers in uniform huddled around a TV in a jail guard tower. On the screen I watched as their character on screen used a machine gun to blow away fellow police officers and helpless victims. I know it's just a game but the irony was biting. Men who uphold the law in public were indulging themselves in illicit activities when no one seemingly got hurt.

I recently swallowed my moral sentiments and played the game for the first time. I can see why people think its fun. But after a few minutes my sense of irony returned. This is not who I am. I turned off the game.

I think you should confess as you have already done. I believe confession is more than just about admitting we're wrong. Confession is also about healing the divide in us. It’s about bringing into one the person that we are and the person we claim to be. Certainly the act of playing GTA is wrong as you have shown in your post, comparing Jesus' statements about adultery and murder. But beyond this it is inconsistent with who you are and the relationship you share with Christ.

I guess I don't see the big question here in terms of sinning or not sinning. The question for me is who am I feeding - the old, natural, carnal man or the new man in Christ? Am I being desensitized or edified? It seems to me, if I am entertained by pretending to do things that I find morally reprehensible, something is wrong, I am out of step with the Spirit of God.

every day we read something on the news that horrifies us - some guy keeping a daughter in a basement for 24 years and fathering 7 kids with her - one of which he burned to destroy the evidence. kids make a cellphone video beating up a girl for half an hour and high-five each other for a job well done. quiet minister's wife shoots her husband with a shotgun (i'm actually amazed this doesn't happen more often...) and confesses to doing it without incident. shootings in chicago kill 32 in one weekend.

and yet EVERYONE today - at least in america - seems to be on a hair trigger, stressed to the nines, cursing traffic, late for something, too busy, unrested, overweight, undernourished, angry, restless, irritable and discontented.

maybe some of them are finding an outlet in these games.

the grace of God isn't always easy to recognize.

me? i'd much rather play old fashioned air guitar ... running around in my underwear.

sorry, TMI, i know...

If your Grand Theft Auto offend thee, cut it off.

Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge playing Grand Theft Auto, won't he be emboldened to play Grand Theft Auto? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I play causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never play Grand Theft Auto again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

Who says everything isn't in the Bible?

ha! well said, casey taylor!

though i love to game, and even enjoy first-person shooters, where i personally draw the line is with games that require killing humans. so the halo trilogy is awesome fun, killing evil cultist aliens in the defense of my marines and all mankind (and those among the aliens who want to escape the cult), but i won't play something like medal of honour or farcry or splinter cell or even half-life. that being said, even halo can spark some uncomfortable moments, like when the littlest, cannon-fodder aliens run away from me in terror and beg for mercy - i can't bring myself to kill them then, unless they turn around and start shooting my men. i guess i'm just a sensitive female. :p

the thing that bothers me about GTA isn't the content itself, but the fact that so many people have a need or desire to indulge the fantasies played out in the game. that, to me, is the real concern. because that's a large part of what games are all about: even though we don't have goggles yet, it's still a virtual reality. do i get a rush from being all badass and saving humanity when i play halo? you bet! it's exciting, empowering, and gives me a sense of accomplishment. do i love escaping to the gorgeous fantasy world of the elder scrolls series? it's the most relaxing thing i can do, to literally just walk my character around that place in a first-person view and soak up the imaginary plants and soothing music.

so, to recap: my concern is why one feels the need to indulge whatever fantasy a game provides for. that is the problem to be addressed, for if people weren't indulging these fantasies en masse, the games wouldn't sell and certainly wouldn't spawn sequels.

blogger, why do you even ask the public if you are guilty of sin? if you are so conflicted that you need strangers to vote on it, then i'd say there's a good chance your heart - and the Spirit - is telling you something.

Ok, this is the one issue in a lifetime that I agree in part with the religious right. The game is a horrible influence. I think the best way to combat the game is to celebrate their right as Americans to sell it, but protest its purchase and speak out prophetically against violence in any form.

I also think we should be consistent in our protest against violence. Can a person really protest fake violence then support the real thing? Shouldn't we also protest boxing, ultimate fighting, and of course CAUSING THE DEATH OF 500,000 PEOPLE IN IRAQ!

Drew Hill said it better than I did!

Are you serious? What is the church's response to a video game? You've got to be kidding me. Frogger, Super Mario, Grand Theft.. Be my guest. Pick one. Be entertained. Here's a question for the church: Do we let the world entertain us and squabble over what is or is not glorifying to Him? Or do we go directly to the Source and say, "Lord, you told me I need a day to just rest. You know I need downtime. What did You have in mind? Do You care what I do?"

Elly, I feel ya. I have an escapist mentality as well. There are games I will play and games I won't. And this is why kids and adults play these games (cops included).

Jumping to the darker side for a moment... sometimes it's fun to play the villain because "life is boring" or other some such excuse. Maybe rage, maybe boredom, maybe you didn't get hugged enough, maybe you got too much love and were overprotected. Whatever. If you want to play armchair psychologist, knock yourself out. Just make sure you frame your self-made diploma first.

Then for everyone who lumps gaming into the "it's bad and addictive" group... yes, some people do get addicted and play too much. (There are wii injuries now.) And some people get addicted to food. Some people get addicted to shopping. Some people get addicted to praise. Or abuse. Some people abuse animals. Some people need to be right all the time (no pun intended). I know not everyone is going to agree with what are the bad games and bad habits. Be careful about pushing everyone into the same corner with the same broom.

I personally don't have the money for games and find some personally distasteful. Then again I always wondered why so many Christian women lost themselves in Christian romance novels... must be the same desire to run away.

Good article. I have to admit (or "confess") that I too played GTA a few times back in the day. It didn't take long, though, for me to realize that I was slowly becoming desensitized to the violence, etc. contained in the game. I'm not about to go preaching on street corners against it or picketing Game Stop, because that isn't where the problem lies.

The church is facing a long, slow inoculation against sin. Pornography has been around a very long time, but the recent explosion of addictions to it started with just a few pictures, then magazines, then films shown in private theaters, then the home video market, then the internet, and now many porn stars are accepted mainstream and porn is commonly joked about in T.V. and movies as something "men just do".

I doubt we would go that far as a society with theft and murder (though we already have with abortion), but are we not slowly becoming accustomed to the idea that sin, even violent sins against others, "just happen". These things may make us sad for a minute or so, but no longer provoke us to action. As the church we should not just accept that sin happens, but should be passionately pursuing people with the Gospel and teaching them to live a life committed to God's glory.


The inoculation against sin is far more likely to create an apathetic church, than it is to create full-blown thieves, murderers and rapists.

I take a similar tack as Elly... I do my best not to play games that have a realistic depiction of violence against humans, unless, in my opinion, there is some attempt at a nuanced depiction of weight and gravitas that should be attached to the act of killing another human being.

I think Splinter Cell does this relatively well... even though there are times when the game does require you to kill someone, it's always framed in terms of national security, and playing this game forces me to examine a lot of the same intense moral and ethical questions that I might also encounter in 20/20 special about counterterrorism or government surveillance.

So I don't play Call of Duty or Medal of Honor and any of those, but I do play Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell series (but not Rainbow Six). And, of course, I play Halo 3 several times a week (just ranked up to Lieutenant).

I definitely agree with the idea of not causing your brother to sin... and frankly, because of its celebration of vice, licentiousness (yeah I went there with the KJV word) and criminality, I can't see anyone with a clear conscience playing GTA. But I'm not going to go so far as to say that it's automatically a sin.

That's just my take.

What is reality?

Why is the assumption that what we do in our mind does not count as reality?

If the digital pixels reflect the excitement of your heart, why is that not real?

First off,

I believe that even if we do see a rise in the number of Christians that play GTA as the new one comes out, it is not our responsability to be running around chasing after them telling them it is wrong.
See, I have had a big challenge this week. Some of my christian friends have decided to play WOW (World of Warcraft). Now this game promotes things like witches and magic and all sorts of evil stuff. Now, it hurt me greatly when i heard my non-christian friend say 'i have convinced these guys to play WOW'.
However, in the broad spectrum of things, we are responsible for our own actions, not the actions of others. If many christians decide to play GTA then, however much it may hurt us (especially if they are your friends who know they are doing the wrong thing), we just need to be there to support them and every now and again remind them that this sort of stuff is not what Jesus would do (WWJD), and keep praying for them.

I would personally confess my sin in front of the church, however be prepared for persecution as I would not think Satan would let go of you this easily.

I hope all goes well.
Cheers

Video Games today are going for a more storytelling and cinematic feel-- to captivate the player's mind, they capture things that are happening in the world today. Bad things and violence happen in the real and imperfect world, and they happen in the made-up Liberty City, the setting of GTA Iv. In this game, the character Niko, has choices to make. It's you, who makes those choices for him. You, as Niko, could play through the game and never steal a car or kill a single person. Just a thought.

Lastly, I'm not sure what the author meant about " Females seem to be immune to these sorts of temptations." I'm female and I enjoy playing adventure and shooter games. I enjoy the reflex time and spacial skills that are used to play these games well. Frankly, I wouldn't harm a fly on purpose... but I enjoy a good story and adventure-- even if vicariously through a make-believe character.

There's a Christian blogger named Chris Knight who has an intriguing take on Grand Theft Auto 4. He thinks Christians should play it so they can examine their own morality.

hang on Jelani, to rank up to Lieutenant on Halo 3 doesnt that mean you are playing online killing fellow players like yourself? tsk tsk, how do you live with yourself?

call of duty or medal of honor is no different to halo 3, your objective is to kill to protect your side and your country. just because halo 3 has aliens as the enemy that makes it ok to kill an intelligent life form?

that statement you made about splinter cell also makes no sense. out of these games that is the game which gives you the most opportunity to kill innocent civilians.

i imagine you can play Gears of War online but only if you play as the good guys (the humans) right?

I think when we look at the issue of protesting we should turn to passages like 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. This clearly tells us that we are to judge those INSIDE the church and to let God judge those OUTSIDE the church. This doesn't mean that we can't try to reach out to potential nonChristian consumers or to the industry itself, but to protest releases which have been allowed by the authority above us (Romans 13:1) does not seem to have a scriptural basis. Surely the Romans had practices which were offensive to the early Christian community, but we don't see records of Peter and John standing outside the Coliseum screaming at attendees as they enter.

I do, however, believe it is distorted to compare the Christian response to this with their response to The DaVinci Code. In that case we see someone purposefully engaging Christians in discourse and at that point I think the church needs to stand up and state its position. If one of the main missions in GTAIV is to blow up churches or assassinate preachers then I think it may be different. But, when it is just representing a depraved worldview, I believe we (as Christians) need to obey our own convictions, display concern for our brothers who may be struggling with this, and allow God to judge the world.

Does Grand Theft Auto really promote crime any more than The Godfather movies?

GTA4 is being hailed by many as the equivalent of what the Godfather did for movies. It is a story told with amazing power and poignancy, unlike any ever before seen in a videogame. It is interesting, because the Godfather, to me, was about how the world of crime can destroy a man's soul, and from what I've seen, GTA4 is about much of the same. Here is a quote from the IGN review of the game...

"Criminals are an ugly, cowardly lot more worthy of pity and disdain than admiration. This is what you'll learn playing through the single-player campaign in Rockstar's Grand Theft Auto IV. The series cheered (and criticized) for glorifying violence has taken an unexpected turn: it's gone legit. Oh sure, you'll still blow up cop cars, run down innocent civilians, bang hookers, assist drug dealers and lowlifes and do many, many other bad deeds, but at a cost to main character Niko Bellic's very soul."

As a writer, I believe in doing whatever is needed to serve the story being told. Some people are deeply troubled and wounded. Some are so steeped in darkness that they regularly do reprehensible things. But these things happen, and we need to be aware of them. A Christian must carry his or her light into the darkness, not flee from it.

I personally think the theme of a story is more important than individual events or elements therein. The Harry Potter series, for example, promotes a great deal of heavily Christian values, such as the all-consuming importance of love. It tells these things through a whimsical tale of wizardry and magic. What is more important? The message, or the medium?

You see murderers and thieves on television constantly. If there is one thing that Grand Theft Auto teaches you, it is that the potential for criminality lies in all of us.

I'm old enough to collect Social Security, so you video gamers can sweep me off into whatever closet you choose and label me irrelevant and out of touch, but it troubles me that a pastor is addicted to anything, especially a violent video game. To me this is just another example of how church leaders have in many cases become indistinguishable from not only their lay followers, but often their unchurched comtemporaries in general.

Many of today's clergy step out of the pulpit into the cars, homes, clothes and habits of the surrounding culture and then seem perplexed that their Sunday message doesn't transform anyone's life. I don't go to church to find another human being I can relate to. I want and need a holy example, someone who raises my standards of behavior and convicts me of my shortcomings. I can always find someone to play golf (or video games) with.

At World's End is not the top grossing film of all time. Even Dead Man's Chest did better at the box office...

The closing comments of your post caught my eye. There is a common thread to all that you presented. You said :

(("No, you’ll object. It’s different. Porn involves real people; video games don’t. You have a point there."))

You are wrong in that observation.....
The "real" person involved is YOU.
And if Jesus is living in your life, the real person involved is JESUS.
Is he really guiding and directing your life?
I don't believe the Holy Spirit is guiding this behavior. Don't you agree?

True confession can only take place when we're convicted. If you are, you should.

Playing games such as GTA seems a lot like going to slasher films... it's hard to imagine it having a GOOD impact on my heart condition.

Guard your heart...it is the wellspring of life.

To sum it all up,

When playing violent video games when you are killing humans or other intellagent life forms, your intention is to kill them in the game. So, even if this is not your intention in real life, you are still commiting murder in your heart - as to kill someone you have to hate them first and by hating someone Jesus says you have murdered them in your heart.

"Am I guilty of sins I should confess to my church? Or am I within my liberties as a Christian?"

I'm sure you are. So what?

Just add them to the pile. If you're anything like me you got plenty of sins to go around.

I actually did commit murder last week. And more than one!

Jesus said if you are angry with your brother it is if you have murdered him.

It is the heart that is the problem. Ours is tainted with sin. It's like a drop of poison in a glass of water...now no part of the water is fit to drink.

But, hey! We've got a Savior! He'll gladly hear your confession and take that sin and throw it on the pile with all the oothers you've committed and will yet commit.

"I don't go to church to find another human being I can relate to. I want and need a holy example, someone who raises my standards of behavior and convicts me of my shortcomings."

Do we look to men or to G-d for our holy example?

Church, video games, morality, immorality, personal examples of holiness and fallen nature all exhibiting themselves in one discussion...people, when is the last time you had this discussion in your own church?
Not the casual, "Hi, My name is [fill in your name] and I feel blessed to be here, the wondrousness of G-d's love has brought me to where I am today, and I shine his goodness all day long!"

This is a discussion all y'all should be having at your respective churches. Not because this isn't a great topic to discuss here on the board, but because this is a OMG TYPE OF DISCUSSION THAT WOULD BENEFIT YOUR LOCAL CONGREGATION!
This discussion is deep, and meaty, and cuts to the core of who we are as a people and our basic nature...this is a discussion that is pertinent to the congregation. And thusly, it is there where it should be.
I will not sit in judgment of Url...the last time I sat in judgment of a man...I ended up judging myself.
Not a good feeling when I saw twice as many faults in myself as I did in the other man.

"Judge not lest you be judge by the same measure"

My advice to all of you is to measure yourself against that moral yardstick you're willing to slap up side Url...and then assess if you're still offended by his "excess."

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Air guitar in my underwear...haven't tried that one yet...sounds fun though.

Just a few questions for further discussion:

1. In what way is GTA different from the "Left Behind" videos?

2. Could one be truly emergent by using the $600 tax credit to purchase approximately 8 copies of GTA for those less fortunate and thus "giving to the poor"?

3. Does the notion of pastors (who are presumably grown men with wives and children of their own) who can find nothing better to do with their time than sit around playing violent video games seem a bit odd to anyone other than me?

4. Why do men who are so vocal about their opposition to war seem to thrive on this stuff?

5. Does this statement offend feminist readers of this blog? "Females seem to be immune to these sorts of temptations. And since the church is made up mostly of women, then maybe it won’t be any problem at all."

I have a hard time believing there's even a question here: Jesus made it abundantly clear that committing the sin in the heart is tantamount to committing the sin in actuality. Video games like Grand Theft Auto are deadly to those who play them, and for many people, I imagine the games lead to actually committing the sins that, in the game, are committed in fantasy.

Some people here are so quick to judge.. and obviously don't get video games.

If I killed someone in GTA, I havent killed someone in my heart - its a fictional character. They come back. You can't ever kill a character in a game. They can always come back.

I've played GTA, and have no desire to go hence forth and kill. If playing a game makes you - then you should stop playing. Don't assume others are like that - most people aren't.

I've played Medal of Honour at LANs before, were teams of mates, and we virtually kill each other - but you know what, we're all mates, we have a good time, and no one wants to really kill each other. It's no different from playing a game of football or hockey - except in sport the team that loses is usually more upset.

Should we ban sport because someone loses? It makes people upset? Sport even causes violence sometimes on & off the field. More so than video games.

People need to get a grip - focus on real autrocities - like the deaths in Iraq, and problems in Africa etc.

Should GTA be restricted to adults? Definately ... kids minds are very impressable and don't distinguish between fiction and reality like adults. But ban it for adults? No, otherwise all M, R etc movies, most romance novels... actually pretty much any meda should be banned.

Great comments. And most of them have circled around a few particular issues. I am surprised that there seems to be a fairly wide consensus about the need to censor GTA from children and youth (which I agree with). I was expecting more 'it's no big deal' comments. So, that's good IMO. However, this brings up another point in my mind. I wonder how many youth pastors and churches are intentionally discussing the issue of video games in their churches? I have not come across much 'teaching' or discussion about this issue. Is it being discussed? If not, why?

As Rome burns, you play video games? If you're older than 21, you should be doing more important things. Stop wasting your time....

The writer epitomizes the cycle all of us experience when we indulge in sin.

First we think about it. Then we try it. Then we get some kind of a buzz from it. The aftermath of the buzz is guilt feelings. We must either repent or decide that its not such a big deal. We rationalize. We indulge. We feel guilty but a little less so....

It doesn't matter if we're talking about video games or porn or my struggle with overeating. The feel-good chemicals released in the brain when we indulge in whatever it is lead to a letdown every time. That letdown leaves us needing more of whatever the indulgence is. Hence the need for a GTA IV. There will surely be a V because sin eventually becomes boring and we need something more to produce the same buzz. I would tell you how to break the cycle but I really don't have time since I am so busy struggling with my own indulgences.

"But among you there must not be even a HINT of sexual immorality, or any kind of impurity...b/c these are improper for God's HOLY people. Nor should there be any obscenity..." Eph 5:3-4 (emphasis mine). Don't let your feelings decide your decisions; let God, through His Word, show you the decisions you need to make.

We are what we do.

The problem is that more and more people are finding it harder to separate fantasy from reality. The thrill of playing the game is not enough for some people, so they go out and act it out to get a greater thrill. No, not everyone will do that just because they played a video game. But if exposed to enough immorality and violence like in GTA, in the movies and on TV, we become desensitized to it. Pretty soon we don't think twice about watching porn, because - after all - it isn't reality. It's just a movie. So, where do you draw the line? And you know that there are parents out there that are completely ignorant to what their children are playing, watching and listening to. They will go out and buy the game without even thinking about the ratings. I played the original GTA and it was very tame compared to the latest releases. I guess it is a matter of personal conviction, but I sure wouldn't want my teens playing this game.

buzz buzz indeed.

Plenty of good parenting advice. 'I don't want my kids playing this stuff.' Sure, I wouldn't want my 7-year-old operating a motor vehicle or my 3-year-old cooking dinner. It's irresponsible and child protective services would have me eaten alive. That is, if I had kids.

There does come a time where reality sets in and the age of reasoning comes in. And so we teach our children to make good choices. For themselves. It's about maturity. About being accountable for your actions. About growing up. It applies to all aspects of life.

We are what we do? I hope not. I work at one place, I do another thing at home, I do another role with friends... I wear many hats. Now, do my VALUES or ETHICS change? No.

You cannot communicate your way out of a situation you behaved your way into a Flieishman-Hillard executive once said, meaning the ultimate results of your actions will prove the attitude of your inner heart.

The Jews in Jesus day (and before) believed that there was no separation between the soul and the physical. That is why it was so important not to lust with your eyes, not to hate in your heart. Everything was seamless, all was connected and intertwined. No one asked Jesus how his spiritual life was going because he didn't have one -- he knew he was already connected with G-d as were his disciples and the rest. Somewhere, a rift was [being] created.

I echo your sentiments, thoughts, and confessions: sheerahkahn, Scott, mike rucker, Jelani, and many others.

I have recently retired as a serving detective for 8 years. I'm now a teacher in a christian school. I am passionate to the point of tears when I see violence in real life. I feel too much (dare I say) for the victims. It makes me sick how far human depravity can go. However, I play GTA 4 as well as each previous iteration of GTA. The games are amazingly well crafted. They payout on american culture. The story line is amazing. The game allows you to choose what you do. It is a game people. It has not desensitized me to violence. If your conscience is telling you not to play it then don't it would be a sin to do so. But don't condemn others if they want to play it. You then risk being legalists, adding to the bible and assuming to know the mind of God. I'm a serious christian and passionate about reaching the unreached. I play games to relax as I have always done. I am mature enough to know the difference. The game is rated. It would be wrong for children to play it or allow your children to play it. I get tired of those that don't play games to critise those that do. I wonder if those that don't were ever critised about going to the movies, dances, ect from their church elders when they were young. Again, this game requires maturity. There are things in this game that would be wrong for me to do and I don't do it. I know my limits. That is why grace is risky.

I think its a no brainer,
if it looks like a duck,
walks like a duck
and quacks like a duck......guess what?

its a duck,

get away from it, its sin, and sin separates us from God

confess it, and leave it alone.....don't get sucked in to this foolishness and then argue why its ok

if you need relaxation, go volunteer somewhere, or do something constructive to help others, don't just sit there and willingly erode your God given brilliant minds with this obviously demonic, sillyness....

what WOULD Jesus do?