We don't live in a time when many people read "serious books." Unless they have advanced degrees. I wish to hand Cornell West's Democracy Matters which deals with all these issues but I fear it to be over their reading and comprehension level. Mostly because we've lost the ability to think with the Socratic model of asking questions.

I hope high schoolers can read this book and get some often marginalized perspective. It will be interesting to read a book by Rob that is scant on stories, for he is a master story teller.

"Our demand for a self-indulgent lifestyle is causing the oppression of poor people throughout the world."

Americans are, as a gross generalization, self-indulgent...I have no problem coming to that conclusion. I've wrestled over the last few years with 2 Cor 8, specifically verse 13: "Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality."

This is a hard subject...we desire that we can be equitable with our brothers and sisters in other nations, yet we want to be responsible in not creating unhealthy dependencies. I spent some time in Africa and I learned how dependent foreigners can become on American money.

Skye, did Bell mention how to overcome the above dilemma? And did the book mentioned how exactly the U.S. is causing "oppression" and what can be done? Did Bell ever mention what HE personally and Mars Hill is doing to fix this problem? I am sympathetic to the difficult inequality of wealth in the world and I'm really eager to have a good example to follow.

But I admit that my heart is suspicious of and has a hard time listening to men who make loads of money off of book deals...I'd like to hear that he is can be more than a mouth on the subject and personally exemplify correct orthopraxy in this.

Thanks.

I'm glad that for all of the avoiding in the last board we get to the fact that Bell IS pushing a left-wing agenda. To me, for a pastor to just blanketly say something like "We're in Iraq for oil" is ignorant at best and causes them to immediately lose credibility. And I love how he sent out another pastor to take the heat about his statements when he did it (listen to "Jesus Wants to Save Christians" sermon 2).

As for Rob's eschatology and exiles view, I mentioned this briefly on the first board, but I would like to elaborate. As Skye pointed out, Bell treats Revelation from a preterist perspective and believes that heaven and hell are different "realities" which humans can effect upon the earth by their actions. This is why he misses the exile point so badly. The whole motif of exiles in the NT (1 Peter 1.1,2.11, Hebrews 11.13, Ephesians 2.19) is directed at the fact that we are not of this world (John 15.19) but instead we have our citizenship in heaven (Philippians 3.20), the city which is yet to come (Hebrews 11.16,13.14).

However Bell, being so eager to push the East v. West agenda of reading the OT in favor of the NT, makes the error that the Jews did in the 1st century, namely interpreting the issues of exile and promised land in terms of physical human efforts and oppression and not spiritually (which is funny from Mr. "Everything is Spiritual").

Hopefully we can wade through this and see just exactly where his views come from and decide for ourselves if we think it is the intended biblical position or not.

"and we should be “very, very grateful” to live in America, but they argue we’ve confused blessing with entitlement."

Well, I can get on board with that observation, but I think Mr. Bell has confused two subjects, and conflated them into an overarching archetype, and I'm surprised you didn't catch it ... Mr. Bell is positing the assumption that America is christian which it most certainly is not.
This is not to say a lot of christians have bought into the American mindset, but that would require pointing out the nunaces which obviously did not occur in this book.

"Our demand for a self-indulgent lifestyle is causing the oppression of poor people throughout the world."

More of the same conflation...

"but few will be able to put down Jesus Wants to Save Christians without a sense of self-loathing—perhaps for supporting the oppressive American empire, but more likely for shelling out $20 for book that only took two hours to read."

I think it's that last part that annoys me to no end...$20 for a two hour book...and you didn't even walk away with a headache, or perhaps a mild, "oh...I think I just had a thought that fell inline with that book I just read."
I think I'll pass on this book, and stick to the open notes that I find on the web or in journals.

What a gracious review.

Is it a big deal to pay $20 for a book with so few words? Since when did people pay that close attention to price and word-amount? And I'm sure that Rob is trying to fleece people. He clearly is in the habit of personally pocketing the money he earns from his creative ventures.

And so what if Rob publishes a book that Ron or N.T. or Shane does a better job of doing. Is Rob supposed to "beat" them at their game? Can't Rob just publish a book with his friend Don, make a simple contribution to the ongoing dialogue?

The review here had more to do with style than substance. Not sure for why the reviewer had to attach such an obvious attitude to the review. I suppose he doesn't have to be neutral or even-handed, but then maybe the review was just as much about the reviewer as it was the book.

what I find somewhat hilarious is that Skye and commenters alike are so upset that Rob would be "snarky" and say such "definite" things like "We're in Iraq for oil."

Maybe I'm missing it, but it seems like there is another Mars Hill pastor who does the exact same thing...and we're ready to crown him bishop?

Look, Rob has his faults. He has offered lopsided thoughts in the past and I think I know now what it feels like to be the person who listens to Driscoll's podcast and defends him on this board based on the greater scope of his work and theology. I feel your pain now. What is in the book cannot be the whole discussion. Granted, more of the discussion would have fit without the one word sentences, but I digress...

It's like saying Romans represents the whole of Christian theology in and of itself. One book cannot satisfy all criticisms that can be levied. Bell does believe in a second coming, but that does not discount the "heaven on earth" thought. How do I know this? The several messages I've heard on podcasts that deal with that very question (series called "The Flames of Heaven") address it fully. But that is more than just reading one book.

The problem is that one book review cannot fully and completely address all the questions, and shame on us all, Skye included, for holding Rob, Don, Driscoll, McLaren, etc. to a standard we ourselves would not submit to.

As for America & oppression, let's answer this question: has any church in a decisively impoverished area gone into debt just to build a new facility for "outreach"? That to me seems like a good place to start the discussion on oppression.

I have a thought that might help us all going forward. I propose this, Skye: allow one of us to review your upcoming book on this site--what do you think? Do you think you've shown us the way of excellence in reviewing? How better to find out?

grace and peace

Talk about self indulgent! Isn't Rob wasting a lot of money on fancy, dancy CDs, DVDs and books? Should they not spend all that energy on a free blog and give the excess $$$ to the poor? The tens of thousands of dollars spent on ads, paper, and magazines is wasted if we follow their statements.

Wow! This leftist dribble that is emanating from some of our pulpits today is getting a bit old! Maybe it's because I'm here in the solid conservative midwest but I just don't get all the hate America jive! Do they not realize the blessings that we have because we are Americans. I agree with one of the above posts, that America is most certainly not a "christian" nation, but to say that we are an empire is inaccurate at best, and leftist propoganda at it's worst.

C.K.,

Thanks for your comments. And, yes, I would be fine with people reviewing my upcoming book on this blog--and I fully expect that a great many Out of Ur readers will take issue with what I’ve written. Your observation is absolutely true. No book can fully cover all of the questions it raises.

That said, my major issue with Bell’s book is not its content but its brevity given its price. That’s not Rob Bell’s fault, but the publisher’s--which is what I indicated in the opening paragraph.

As I stated in my review, I thought the book would be a good (that’s the key word, “good”) introduction to the subject of social justice and the bible for a student or newcomer. If I wanted to trash the book or Bell’s theology I would not have recommended it to anyone. But because I was writing a review for Out of Ur, not Campus Life, I simply made the point that Bell’s book doesn’t dig deep enough for a more theologically trained audience and that there are other books on this topic that are more satisfying for church leaders.

I have no bone to pick with Rob Bell. If anything I’ve been impressed with his ministry and ability to take a chronically shallow evangelical subculture deeper into history, theology, and anthropology. I’m also not casting judgments about his view of Revelation or America. I only stated in my review that his unqualified remarks about these complicated subjects may cause some readers to “freak out.” I did not have that reaction.

Skye

C.K.,
I'm glad that you've asked a practical question...I too was hoping for a bit of clarification about how Bell proposes social justice in different contexts.

One question though...you equated not giving money to the poor with oppression. Maybe you didn't mean it that way...maybe you meant "oppression" as a general junk-drawer category for the absence of all social justice actions?

But if not, how is not giving money to the poor "oppression"? It is certainly a privilege that we get to show mercy as Christ showed mercy to us in our poverty. But is it really "oppression"? For instance, if a white man is destitute on the street due to a willful decision to start taking drugs, it isn't oppression to NOT give him money. It may be a lack of charity and compassion, but not oppression. It would be oppression if a foreigner is on the streets because we decided, as a foreigner, that he shouldn't get a job he is qualified for.

So again, I ask, what does oppression look like in our culture? Or is America's oppression due more to unfair international policies?

However 'Left Behind' theology is often taught as 'fact' without much (if any) explanation of other views including the preterist reading.

"I’ve been impressed with his ministry and ability to take a chronically shallow evangelical subculture deeper into history, theology, and anthropology."

Nothing in your description of the book makes it sound anything other than shallow. It sounds like another broad-brushed, judgemental left-wing diatribe by another infiltrator of the Church.

I keep seeing the term "social justice" used. For one, this a totally unbiblical concept. But I challenge anyone who disagrees to first define social INjustice. And do it without using the kind of Socialist cliches employed by Bell et. al.

I have a hard time listening to a guy like Bell talk about the danger of being hip and trendy when.....He is the hip and trendy thing out there right now. I also have a hard time listening to him tell me about poverty and how spend all this money on trash bags when if you have ever watched a Nooma DVD the guy is driving his Landrover around in two or three of them (in case your wondering not a cheap vehicle!) I like Rob Bell alot but I am sick of these guys just griping about things! If they hate America so much and the evil empire that we are then why don't they leave and do ministry somewhere else? I am not saying America is perfect because we have made some huge huge mistakes in policy and with the Iraq war. These guys are doing some great things. But I am ready for them to focus on doing great things and stop tying everything they do into some kind of a political agenda!

First off, Skye I appreciate your response and thank you for being willing to respond. I understand the qualms with Bell's "accessible" book, I just have a hard time because I don't see the same standard levied toward other light-weight works...

It's interesting that I find myself defending Rob Bell, considering I don't necessarily believe Rob (or Driscoll, etc.) need our defending in the slightest. I will say this--Bell's Mars Hill gives away equal to what they receive as far as money (their financial statements are available), and that's just what the organized church gives--not counting what individual members due. They have adopted every single mother in W. Michigan, as well as setting up a microfinance account for the vastly underesourced country of Burundi. Now, I'm not saying they're perfect, but simply saying that Rob's words and actions do line up.

I appreciate Paul Dalach's comments about "oppression," but I think it might be a pretty narrow definition that he gives in response. Oppression is both action and mindset--for example, the oppression going on in Steinbeck's classic "The Grapes of Wrath" is equal parts thought and action (or inaction, in some cases). Giving/not giving money to the poor is a Biblical issue and is the root of thought that leads to oppression, even in your definition. It is when someone who can help systematically participates in a refusal to help. Compassion is both the antithesis of oppression, as well as the orthopathy that conquers oppression. Perhaps that's just me... I agree that giving money is not the source of healing for oppression, but it is part of the organic whole that either combats or systematically supports oppression.

i.e. Jesus and the moneychangers in the temple--that's an issue of oppression, with the greed for profit driving the slanted scales. What do you all think?

grace and peace

C.K.,
I appreciate your response. For me, this is a particularly difficult personal issue. I, being a U.S. citizen, have a greater political power than most people in the world. I, being where I am in life, have greater current and potential financial power than many even in the U.S.. And 2 Corinthians 8 haunts me..."so that they would be equality".

Thank you for the critique of the narrowness of oppression-definition. I agree that there is a narrowness in it and that it extends to the heart as well.

There is a balance...the bible (1 Tim) says that only faithful widows receive support and that if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat. But there is still a great concern from Jesus and the Apostles for the widow and orphan.

The complexity comes in because there are righteous poor and unrighteous poor. For the righteous poor, help is put to righteous, practical use. For the unrighteous poor (and I've seen this where I live...in my neighbors), help ends up being used for sinful purposes that potentially inhibits a healthy change inducing crisis. I wrestle with my attitude towards my physical next door neighbors over this...a desire to help but a realization that past help has gone towards sinful goods.

The issue is complex...and you are right that we need to start with a heart that wants to help and a realization that not all poor are unrighteous poor. Or that, even if they are poor because they WERE unrighteous, they may have since repented: these represent a sad statistic in the churches you feel "judged" and not loved.

If Bell would write a follow up book on how to setup some of these micro-financing institutions and give non-sin-enabling help to the poor, THAT I'd gladly read. Perhaps that's already been written?

Paul- I'm not sure that he's written anything about the Burundi project, but there's a link on their website you can read more about the microfinance project.

there is a struggle between helping and enabling, and sadly the Bible isn't really clear. the legal passages in Deut. about harvesting once and leaving the left-overs never really mention the quality of the poor, alien, fatherless and widow other than that they fit these criteria.

it seems to be a struggle of accountability--what are followers of Jesus accountable for? right acting or right results? or both? or neither?

glad to dialogue with you all.

grace and peace

Social justice/injustice is comprehensively described in the prophetic texts interpretation of the deuteronomic and mosaic codes.

It covers economics, social structures, etc. etc...not just sex and abortion.
sheeesh...and you people claim to be the only ones how "get it" when it comes to the bible.

This stuff isn't hard folks. But it takes actually reading OT texts as they are...not just to cherry pick your favorite verses to prooftext Jesus is the Messiah for your Christmas sermon.

Talk about the irony of clear cut "right-wing" water carriers rant, rant, ranting about "left-wing" infiltrators into the Church?

That's an implicit claim that Bell is not a Christian.

I'm so glad you're letting us know that the Holy Spirit resigned from the Trinity and you're candidating for the job.

It's sadly becoming my signature sign-off, but here goes:

Excuse me while I go puke.

Paul / CK

Good discussion.

For a narrative about the beginning of the micro finance concept, see Banker To The Poor: Micro-Lending and the Battle Against World Poverty, by Muhammed Yunus

For a more in depth look, see, A Billion Bootstraps: Microcredit, Barefoot Banking, and The Business Solution for Ending Poverty, by Phil Smith and Eric Thurman

The two leading Christian micro finance institutions are Opportunity International www.opportunity.org turning grassroots poverty fighting institutions into viable banks for the poor. The other is World Relief, www.wr.org which specializes in post conflict lending in the poorest economies on earth and is Mars Hill’s partner in Burundi.

If you have a small amount of disposable income (like $75 to $200) and would like to help a poor entrepreneur start a business, you can do so direct via www.kiva.org. Might be an interesting endeavor for a group of scholars?

You might also be interested in a web-enabled tool Mars Hill started to empower the church to share needs and resources throughout the community. The Common.Org (www.thecommon.org) is fully functional now and has been adopted by 20 or so churches.

The righteous and unrighteous poor… that’s a sticky argument. Unrighteousness can be an expression of poverty. Love, nurture, family, community, godly leaders, good churches - the stuff that fosters righteousness – is definitely a form of wealth. Christ’s response to the poor isn’t predicated on worthiness but on need, right? I hope so! Grace comes to me in my unrighteousness. Christ found me an unrighteous poor man. But we are still left with what I think is your underlying concern: how do we help without doing harm? Rather than evaluating righteousness vs. unrighteousness, the real issue may be charity vs. opportunity. Do they need your money or goods or do they need a friend to challenge them and provide an opportunity to empower them beyond the harm they do themselves? Charity, or giving money and goods, is fairly easy. If it doesn’t work, it is not the end of compassion. Providing opportunity, empowering people through support and education and community, is really difficult but is more a long the lines of what the church is called to do.

Don made some helpful distinctions in his comments about righteous/unrighteous poor. But I think it was only necessary because the apostle Paul's words about working and the widow were taken out of context. The apostle Paul was talking about those within the church body that the church was caring for because they were members of the church. This is a matter of accountability and spiritual growth to insure that those within the church (and I believe he meant the specific local gathering here, not the church universal) are cared for, but also encouraged in their spiritual growth.

That is different from the general instructions to care for the poor in scripture like the instructions to allow for gleaning, caring for the orphan and respect for the alien. Those instructions are for all poor, both inside and outside of the church. Of course we should be smart about how we care for the poor. Micro-credit and other methods that strive to empower the poor and not create dependency are great. And we do not need to re-create the wheel, there are hundreds of good organizations that are doing great work out there. Work through them or learn from them as we do our work.

We should never be having a discussion among Christians about whether we should be helping the poor. How we help the poor is valid and we will have different answers, in part because some of us will want to address macro-level issues, some will want to address micro-level issues, some will focus on the relative poor in the US, some on the absolute poverty internationally, etc.

"That's an implicit claim that Bell is not a Christian."

The claim is that Bell and some others featured in Ur are false teachers. We are warned of them in Matt 7, Matt 15, II Tim 4, Acts 20, II Peter 2, II Peter 3 and other passages.

Adam S.,
Thank you for your comments...I especially resonate with "We should never be having a discussion among Christians about whether we should be helping the poor. How we help the poor is valid and we will have different answers..."

Don,
"Do they need your money or goods or do they need a friend to challenge them and provide an opportunity to empower them beyond the harm they do themselves?"

A needed reminder for me...sometimes they need a friend to challenge them. This, sometimes for me, is...well...challenging for me. There's no set formula for love in any culture. But when the culture is so far beyond what I am used to (homeless, severely broken families, other nationalities) I'm not sure I speak the language of love at all. I sometimes thing the language of love for many is less subtle and nuanced than I believe...maybe more raw. My wife and I befriended a homeless girl, and found that my most blunt speech about sin and restoration, over the course of weeks and months, were considered "encouraging". That same bluntness would have been considered "uncharitable " and perhaps "rude" for many in our churches. But still, I was/am in a tizzy knowing how to communicate (words and deeds) the love that has shown me.

For the record, I'm SERIOUSLY glad that Jesus is patient with me, because their are seriously unskilled, uncoordinated areas of my life.

Also, thanks for the resource references...VERY helpful.

It seems we're missing a big part of the "helping the needy" concept in the Scriptures.

First, the Mosaic code applies primarily to helping other Israelites, not everyone in the world who doesn't have as much stuff as I do. Don't trash someone or a nation of someones just because they have more than the next person. In fact, God told Israel that when they had more stuff than the neighboring nations, they would be in a lending (not enabling or supporting) position.

Secondly, the NT passages, again, are primarily for believers helping believers.

That is where our money should go first. And as God blesses us (when we are faithful with what is commanded), we will be able to help others also - including unbelievers here and around the world.

Daniel, I must disagree with you on one key point: the whole concept of "alien" in the OT is someone who is landless--and since God is giving Israel the land (cp. Deuteronomy) and the law is preparing them for the land, then anyone who is landless is NOT an Israelite. Not to mention the fact that those with land are not poor because they have resources within the land, the poor in passages like Deut. 15 are most likely non-Israelites.

True, the NT passages may only refer to believers, but that only makes sense in contemporary application if Jesus' teaching restricts it to believers only. I don't think we find that, and in fact we may even find unbelievers giving to believers in Matthew 25's "sheep and goats" imagery. Or the rich young ruler: instruction to give to the "poor" without qualifying their status as believers or non-believers.

I understand what you're saying in the last paragraph, and somewhat agree with the last paragraph, but it's the issue of primacy (first to other believers) and the Biblical support you give that I just can't get on board with. Please let me know if I misunderstood your comment.

grace and peace

RDM,

doesn't the claim of being a "false teacher" cast their status into question?

Jesus Wants to Save Christians | Rob Bell and Don Golden | Coming October 2008

There is a church not too far from us that recently added a $25 million addition to their building.

Our local newspaper ran a front-page story not too long ago about a study revealing that one in five people in our city lives in poverty.

This is a book about those two numbers.

When I read this from a site describing the preview of the book I was so excited.

I live in the city they live in--I know the church they refer to and the thousands of people who support it. And Rob and Don are so right and courageous to speak up about this type of injustice and faulty stewardship in the church in America. It more than likely can be found from the eastern seaboard to the western shore—but it is an epidemic in West Michigan. Churches are popping up everywhere in the state whose economy ranks last in the nation. We are far too eager to invest in our selves first and perhaps let the crumbs fall from the table.

And they will be roundly criticized in this town.

I hope the book is all that I imagine. Kudos to them.

Well the endless debate continues...and that is really the point right? To engage with the issues of the day through the Spirit's leading in your heart and soul. I cannot really explain the difference Rob Bell's ministry and teaching has made for me and my family. I am tempted to jump in and start taking swings at some of the low hanging fruit in the ealier posts, but...I have learned from Rob's example that this kind of petty, time wasting, jargon familiar, self congratulating foolishness is not where the real work is done.

The real work is done when men and women of God attempt to convey the direction of thought and Spirit revelation that is overflowing their soul. They attempt this tirelessly and in many mediums. They, through the power of God, change lives and spread Jesus' message of love to those who need them to express in actual words the things they know in their hearts to be true.
I seriously doubt that the Isrealites, in times of plenty when they were in the position of oppressing other nations, actually enjoyed the prophets pointing out the serious flaws in their life and spiritual practice. I am sure they were also encouraged to leave if they did not like the current conditions. But point them out they did - without regard for nationalistic political categorizations.

We will know them by their fruit.

Truly examine Rob, Don, and Mars Hill. Really take a look at the fruit being produced, both locally and internationally through this ministry and these men. Then, come to New Hampshire and talk with me about how this ministry has changed my life and re informed my family's understanding of our responsibilities to our fellow man. Talk with me and the thousands of others who have made changes in their lives for the better. Who have a clearer picture of Jesus than ever before. Who can now see the darkness involved in spiritualizing mediocrity and hording the Lord's treasure in safe American tree lined cul-de-sacs of plenty while throughout the world the suffering is actually unimaginable. I know that seems impossible in our -- hyper speed hyper space gimme a burger fries and a satisfying media experience to go -- culture. We've seen it all and been there done that... But, I am here to tell you as Rob and Don have and do, that the suffering is actually ---unimaginable---

Stand as I have in the country of Ethiopia and weep because you have just encountered a man with nothing in the world but a torn blanket. Nothing but a torn blanket and his skin. That's it. I don't care if this man is a believer or is possessed of myriad demons or is actively involved in persecuting Christians -- this man needs help, and Jesus would give it to him. We too must give it to him.

If your feeling safe and comfortable and don't like people calling into question the source and nature of that safety and comfortability - well I think that is pretty self-explanatory.

Let those of you without sin cast the first stone....

Paul, CK and others,

No deep thoughts here. Just a thank you. Thank you for allowing us to sit in on your reasonable, rational and non-emotional dialogue, stating differences of opinion without lowering yourselves into the abyss of other heated discussion board arguments. Refreshing and encouraging to say the least. Thanks.

Skye...you said "As a result, Jesus Wants to Save Christians feels more like a lecture than a sermon--it informs but it never inspires." I presume that you make this statement without having read the epilogue chapter "broken and poured." If recasting the depth and texture of the Eucharist and are call to be Eucharistic communities is not inspiring to evangelical churches that often forsake the Jesus meal, then, well we just probably don't believe the Gospel.

But really, now that I have read the whole book too, I find your review to be unfair because you are judging it in relation to more academic works by Tom Wright and Ron Sider. You are right. Rob is placing the cookies lower on the shelf. But isn't that what we need? I mean, I wish that most of my fellow Jesus followers would read Tom Wright and Ron Sider. But I would be happy if they would just put aside all the doctrinal and denominational lenses they've been given and imagine the alternative kingdom of which the Bible insists is breaking into this world.

I enjoyed this book because I can hand it to my non-reading friends and we can begin a conversation of untangling Jesus from all the anti-Christ ways he's been presented.

Somebody said something about humility?

I haven't had the chance to read the book because it's not out yet....but I'm concerned by some of the comments...

Terms like Left-ist, Liberal and other labels concern me. We give someone or something a name/label and instantly it's disqualified. I've got many Christian friends that have disqualified a person's thoughts, feelings, life experiences because the person is a liberal. They're no longer a person that can be correct, validated or have a voice in our community because they're not on their side. I know it goes both ways, but this is just fuel to the perceived Christian arrogance that is despised by those who don't believe what we believe.

What does the cover mean? He mentioned something about the designer being brilliant...I guess I'm not.

I don't get the cover either. However, based on the review, I don't think I'm going to lose sleep over it.

Thanks for the review. I think I'll read it for myself. (I may purchase it online and save a few bucks, avoiding the dreaded $20 debate altogether.)

More info on the book here including some free chapters (and btw, a positive remark from N.T. Wright mentioned above): http://www.jesuswantstosavechristians.com/

As for what the authors and their church actually propose to do about the problems described:

The X,Y and Z initiatives at Mars Hill: http://www.marshill.org/xyz/ or listen to the podcast from February 18, 2007.

What Don Golden has been involved with for years: http://www.wr.org/

By the way, Bell and his family have moved into a lower income area (as have several at Mars Hill) to actually be with people who need help (as opposed to dropping money on them from a great height, although he seems to support those endeavors as well). The person above was concerned about the consumption of the Land Rover shown in the Noomas would be glad to know he makes a habit of walking where he needs to go.

I'm sure some will insist all that is for show and will continue to discuss Bell's sense of fashion, products, consumption habits, etc, but hopefully there is enough to consider that maybe...just maybe he is actually living out to at least some minute degree what he is saying. (Not to mention he is only one of the two authors.) That said, hopefully that will allow some folks to move past the cult of personality and engage with what he says, or better yet directly with what Jesus said.

I have personally found the teachings of Jesus - when grounded in their historical/political/social/economic context of the first century Palestine - to be shockingly relevant and challenging. I continue to be surprised at the political and economic implications. I don't just mean arguing about lofty ideas or political candidates (both parties have offended me with rhetoric of revenge, war and empire). For me, those challenges met me in my overstuffed closets and garage. They have moved through my checking account, my budget, my eating habits, my decision on buying a car, my giving to my church, my giving to support some Compassion kids, my decision to have my son support a child through World Vision, etc. We are considering moving our family closer to people who need help, which would lessen our mortgage, allow me to spend less time commuting and working where I am, and free us to help people more. It would also mean higher crime rates, less privacy, less space, shabby appliances, immigrant neighbors who are different, drugs, lower levels of education, etc.

Maybe you folks could pray for our family.

I am a young missionary from the midwest. I picked this book up because I have always enjoyed and been inspired/catalyzed by the words Bell speaks. I did not find the book a "lecture" or uninspiring. The inspiration to me came from the fact that America, as a largely consumer nation, has found itself in an "awkward position." We have accumulated wealth and prosperity but have neglected the poor. I am literally appalled at the attitudes of most Americans towards the impoverished and needy. Ex: The other day I stopped to pick up an elderly man walking down the road. I brought him to the local courthouse, he prayed for my trip to Australia and it was two men worshipping God on a car ride to the courthouse. I later explained the story to a few of my friends who all had the same answer of "He could have killed you and stolen your car." What are the chances of that? Why do the majority of us believe this...are we a society built on fear? All I am saying is we need to stop all this babble about how much money Rob is making or if he's driving a Land Rover or not. God is obviously using him in ways others can not be used and we don't know whether or not Rob is picking up elderly men or feeding the homeless because that is Church. I know that I am privileged and some might even call me spoiled, but God has blessed me with things so that I can dish them out to other people. Not much of America is dishing out. I'm not patting myself on the back, I'm just saying that we need to look past ourselves and into the eyes of the oppressed. Get out of this country, get out of your suburbs, get out of your comfort and see what "justice" the world is bringing upon its citizens. I'm fed up with lazy Christians driving by the homeless on the way to church and not having compassion on them. We are called to do God's work...every single one of us.

hmmm...i read all this and i think about a few things:

1) it is our responsibility to read God's Word and make decisions OURSELVES (see 2 Tim 2:15, Ps 119.11). Letting others do your thinking, and not the Holy Spirit, is likely to lead to some not so good things.
2) while we are to scourge ourselves over how bad we are, how do we reconcile this call to social justice with Mt 26, particulary v.11?

i have read Bell's work, and i do not agree with it; however, any time we measure each other by anything other than God's Word we get in trouble. we SHOULD question each other (see Bereans).

i find these books no less hypocritical than those they criticize of being the same.

is seems trendy to view everything these days through the "original" jewish or hebrew context. really? that gives it all credence, right?

it disturbs me to portray God as a mysterious being. this implies that a secret knowledge exists out there, and fortunately we have new folks to tell us what it is...

debates are great! but i think God knows this: see Ecc 1:9 (or am i misreading that?)

The Bible fits together. the OT and NT lean on each other. i find the best part is that reading it i find a full view of God.

servant leadership has been lost on all of us. i am wary of those 'leaders' or pastors who make/take more time to write books than to act.

He will lead us if we let Him. of course, we have to spend time with Him. maybe by doing that we can spend less time wasting money on books other than the Bible, less time writing books, and more time seeing what God wants us to do, and then doing it!

lastly, speaking of Jesus, how much time did he spend writing books about his views while on Earth? what does this tell you?

I think we need more leaders like Rob Bell and Shane Claiborne because the church in America is in desperate need of a wake-up call. It has become so corrupt and morally bankrupt that it no longer resembles any of the teachings of Christ. The conservative Christian fundamentalists and the Religious Right have become a misguided group who traded the Gospel of Jesus for the Gospel of American Empire; who traded Jesus' calls to end poverty and violence for the Empire's call to wage war and to profit from the underprivileged. We desperately need a new Reformation because the evangelical church is America is a despicable, shameful failure.

If you want to find out more insight about how Rob Bell came to write this book go to this link:

http://offthemap.com/media/downloads/

Click on podcasts and listen to the interview with Rob Bell. (You'll need iTunes)

You'll also find a few answers to some of the above assumptions and what sound to me like judgments made about Rob Bell.

I liked the book because it challenged my arrogance and pride as a Christian. In looking at how the American Church is doing at reaching the lost (at least in my own city) I would say we are severely crippled. Ik now there are statistics out there about how so many churches go year after year and see no baptisms (which, to me, are a good indicator of a healthy church).

I also thought it would make a funny t-shirt with the words "I'm NOT in denial" on it.

This book gets me thinking and wondering how in my own life I am not living a sacrificial life like Jesus did. Jesus didn't do miracles during commercials. Who am I helping by sitting in my bed watching reruns of King of Queens and eating chips and salsa?

I believe Rob Bell and I (and all of us) are on the same team and can learn a lot from each other.

Good to read everyones comments!

Ben, so yes, while Jesus didn't take time to write a book, several of his most faithful followers did. I guess we should scorn the authors of the bible, particularly those who wrote the NT and the Gospels to give us insight about Jesus and his life. Shame on you Paul for writing your letters. How dare you take time to write letters while in prison when you could have been . . . . acting more like Jesus? How ridiculous does that sound? Come to think of it, Jesus never took time to blog either but it seems we waste a good bit of time with that as well.

One wonders why, if the book only took two hours to read, you couldn't have read the entire thing before writing a review.

I have loved every book he has written, until now. Rob and his friend are obvious talking about issues that they are not completely educated on. In this book he only gives one perspective and approaches this subjective with an agenda, rather than taking the time to look at different sides of what are quite complex issues. I hope that he will begin to think more objective on the subject.

I just finished reading the book. I'm not an intellectual, theologian or scholar. I look forward to reading NT Write's book on the topic and the other book mentions (Jesus for President). Unlike the book reviewer I felt very inspired by the book. I'm actually excited about being a Christian again and being part of a Christian Community that wants to serve the world and not just intself (if I can just find such a community). This book met me where I was at. It's not like I'm going to just settle on this book for all my answers and not continue to explore the issues and ongoing dialogue and continue to become more educated. Give the readers a little more credit.

As a youth pastor, I have always found Rob Bell's books, tours, podcats, NOOMAs, etc. to be profound and very inspiring. I own every book and video put out by Bell and count them, along with my Message translation to be some of my greatest resources in reaching my youth. I am very disappointed and distrubed at those who are blasting Bell as a heretic and leftist. He is nothing of the sort. He gives a fresh, relevant interpertaion of Scripture and a way to apply it to our lives, something we pastors/leaders should embrace, not criticize. I would encouarge everyone to remeber the wise counsel of St. Augustine, "In the essintals-unity, in the unessintals-liberty, in ALL things charity." As long as we agree on the basics, like Chirst as God's son and the ponly way to heaven, etc, (which Rob Bell) does, anything we don't agree on we should simply agree to disagree.

Oh and I do agree with to an extent and find valid, their point on Truman dropping the bomb, the Iraq War, and such....as valid points that are grounded with some reasons and fcats....opinions that deserve to be heard and thought through...not just discounted as leftist.