Hermenuetics

Comments

I will preface this by saying that I have and probably will continue to shop there occasionally, but I do think find it a little unsettling that the only (from my perspective) thing Forever 21's owners do to show their faith is put "John 3:16" on their bags. It's nice to see Christians engaging in business in this way, but if all they're going to do is say they're Christians without addressing some major issues they've had (ie ripping off designs, their reported use of sweatshop labor, the fact that some of their clothing is pretty immodest, etc...), I'm not sure they're being the best witnesses for their faith. I'm not saying they need to be super outspoken and play CCM at their stores (they probably shouldn't), but it seems that the way they run their organization isn't totally guided by biblical principles, which worries me. But, like I said, I do shop there sometimes, so, I don't know. These are just a few (possibly hypocritical!) thoughts to add to the discussion!

Posted By: Lauren | March 27, 2009 12:16 PM

Also consider what a plus sized line that tops out at a US size 14/16 says about body image to todays teens and young women. Extending the size range by one mere pant size beyond what is "average" (US 12) hardly says "It's OK to be a healthy size for you." While a juniors plus sized line should not extend to sizes that are unhealthy for the body it should certainly extend to sizes that still promote a healthy lifestyle (go at least to an 18/20!) as well as a healthy spirit.

Posted By: Anonymous | March 27, 2009 2:48 PM

I was always confused about the fact that John 3:16 was on the bag and how skimpy their clothes can be. I have always had conflicting thoughts concerning the verse on their bag. Although it may cause curiosity and such for people and lead them to Christ, the bags do also refer back to the store of Forever 21...which a lot of times seems to have unrealistic sizes (a large is often SO small) and the clothes don't really seem to be something a Christian should wear. (I do own Forever 21 clothes, but I would agree with you and say the majority of them are pretty skimpy). This is an interesting thought that you bring up at the end: What does it really mean to be a Christian retailer?

Posted By: Liz | March 29, 2009 7:40 PM

I don't see why a Christian in business HAS to do anything to outwardly "market" their faith. More important is being truth and light within the workplace, making a difference in the lives of their employees. This article does not go in depth on their business practices, only that they produce trendy, very cheap clothing. They are a success story. Why do we need to tear them down? I'm grateful they decided against corny Christian slogan t-shirts that cheapen our faith. Let's let them be successful and allow them to be accountable to God themselves.

Posted By: SJ | March 31, 2009 10:13 AM

Great post Lauren. I was at the hairdresser today and she was discussing with her colleague how to help a woman who's long blonde hair had been died blue from a shirt the woman had purchased at Forever 21. She had already gone through one expensive treatment and was coming in for another. The bargain turned out to be anything but! I told the hairdresser about your blog post, which made for some thoughtful conversation. Glad to be partnering up with you and the other herms.

Posted By: christineascheller | March 31, 2009 4:26 PM

Sorry Laura! I read your first and last names together and turned Laura Leonard into Lauren.

Posted By: cas | April 1, 2009 9:41 AM

I find it curious as to why the "plus-size" store is the one called Faith-21. Is there some connection there I don't understand? What is that saying? Anything?

Posted By: Beth | April 2, 2009 12:18 PM

I don't think they are skimpy clothing. I mean it's how you wear it. And also it seems like sometimes a Christians meaning of "skimpy" can be pretty strict.

Posted By: Anonymous | April 2, 2009 12:49 PM

I wonder if as Christians they consider the source for their clothing- i.e., is their clothing made in sweatshops by exploited or enslaved workers? The turnaround time is so fast and the prices so low that these sorts of practices seem inevitable.

Posted By: Mulan47 | April 3, 2009 1:38 AM

"As in any creative industry, the ethics of fashion are complicated for both producer and consumer"

I'm sorry, but this really isn't as complicated as you make it out to be. The Changs' fashions and those who wear them bring the name of Christ into disrepute, pure and simple. No complications need to be manufactured.

Need I quote chapter and verse about humility, modesty and the beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit? What about the unspoken disrespect for age, even wisdom, that a shop whose name extols the goal of perpetual youth creates?

As for Christians purveying skimpy clothing? A motto on their bags such as "Cheap Tarts R Us" would be more appropriate.

If this is the sort of thing we can expect from this blog in the future, if the first week is any indication of the content we can expect in the future, if CT is the voice for Evangelicalism, I can well understand why some folks won't have anything to do with it. This blog, which should be an example of the best and the brightest of American Protestantism (as, indeed, should be true of CT in general), instead serves to confirm the vacuousness of Egalitarianism and low-church Protestantism in general.

Kamilla

P.S. Anonymous - a miniskirt or a top which exposes the midriff are, by definition, skimpy. There's no way to wear such garments modestly.

Posted By: Kamilla | April 4, 2009 9:34 AM

I think it is fine to bring your faith into the workplace, but don't be hypocritical. Don't have sweatshop labor and greedy business practices (waaaaaayy to much merchandise in their store for quantity instead of quality) and treat your workers like slaves on the selling floor and than get in touch with CT to proclaim your faith. Honestly, when non-religious companies are aware of their impact both here and abroad, treat their workers and suppliers with fair wage and fair trade principals and are not greedy (whether with alot of cheap merchandise or one huge ticket item) it says alot about what we should honor and expect from our brothers and sisters in Christ. Our relationship with Jesus should not be the moniker we add to our dream fulfilled, it should be how we LIVE the dream fulfilled and thank Him for all He's done. There are no rules or pharisiacal laws to follow, but as a church we need to look at the fruit...and be sure that it is not just pretty, but fake:)

Posted By: 1Lovely Girl | April 6, 2009 5:28 PM

I just have to say something. I've read the articles that have been posted so far on her.meneutics, and I am very ashamed at my brothers and sisters in Christ who have posted several snarky and downright mean posts in response to the articles. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with an article, but just please do it in a nice way.

Posted By: K. | April 7, 2009 2:14 PM

You can wear a perfectly modest piece of garment and behave in a non-modest way. With our mouth or words- we can praise God or slander..

Posted By: Cynthia | April 7, 2009 3:22 PM

My last post was aimed to some people that have commented on this article. As to the actual article, I think by all means, cover up your body, wear modest garment. How to make clothes that sell, without conforming to the world's standard of beauty. How to promote modesty, integrate fair trade, and basically to be a good witness in the business world is really something to ponder about.

Posted By: Cynthia | April 7, 2009 3:27 PM

Kamilla,
My sister, please chill out. The author of this post, Laura, was not presenting a position statement praising Forever 21 for being a Christian retailer. She was presenting both sides to try to get a response and a dialogue going, to invite different points of view on what it means to be a Christian retailer. I think this is a relevant question, which could benefit from discussion. Please be more patient and more kind.
It is certainly not vacuous to ask whether it is worthwhile to share the gospel of John 3:16 even through the very imperfect medium of retail fashion.
This was laura's intent.
I think it is worthwhile.

Posted By: vt bailey | April 7, 2009 9:56 PM

If a top that exposes the mid-riff is skimpy then please do not wear a bikini. If a short skirt is skimpy, then please do not wear a swimwuit. It is all cultural. A sleeveless top is Ok in the West but not Ok in Pakistan. A saree worn in Asia exposes the midriff and is not one bit skimpy. Why are Christians so judgemental and so quick to lay down rules?
Sarah

Posted By: Anonymous | April 7, 2009 11:22 PM

Well, VT, you may be right. So today, while I'm working through lunch, I decided to take your advice and ordered a grapefruit martinit - very refresshing and definitely chill-out making.

However, as I told one of the bloggers in an email, I won't be participating here any longer. The reason? Let's just say I am glad I don't have a young person at home inclined to follow the links they've provided on some of their posts. Completely irresponsible behaviour for an avowedly Christian blog.

Kamilla

Posted By: Kamilla | April 8, 2009 2:09 PM

All Christians are imperfect. We are never going to get it right until we are absent from the body and present with the Lord. So, please stop throwing around the self righteous comments. I am sure those who have may have worn something that others deemed innapropriate. I believe the Changs should get credit for all the mission work they have done. About the other accusations (stealing designs, etc.)- until there is proof of the guilt, please give them the benefit of the doubt. It is hard to be successful. My size 14 body doesn't shop at Forever 21, but I never see the dummys dressed inappropriately.

Posted By: Debbie Lawrence | April 8, 2009 9:25 PM

Personally, i love the store. And i think no matter where you shop, its all about HOW you wear what you buy. I am a christian young adult, and i dress modestly. When i buy clothes from Forever 21 (one of my favorite stores) i dont but the clingiest size on the rack, i go up a size. the clothes i buy there are fashionable and cover my mid drift, belly, and chest. if something hangs a little too openly, i wear an undershirt or layer my clothes. I think that;'s what everyone loves about this store: any type of style can come out of it. Its all a matter of how you put together what you buy there. You decide how to (modestly) wear thew clothes, not the store.

Posted By: jenna | April 10, 2009 11:20 AM

Hello ladies!

My post is directed to the few posts that talked about the whole "sweat shop" issue in foreign countries. I used to feel the same way, until I went to Cambodia on a three week missons trip. In the capital city ( Phenom Pehn) they have what is called a "Russian Market" which is where all of the "american" merchandise....like "Old Navy", "American Eagle", "Forever 21", even "Anne Kline", etc... are made, and sold, for insanely cheap prices. I brought up the issue of minimally paid labor/"the sweat shop" moral delima to the man who was our guide, and he said that it is quite the opposite. Many third world countries (in this case, Cambodia) have such a LACK of work for their people, that any kind of work is welcome. Especially for women. We should be grateful that there are at least minimally paying jobs for women, because this serves as a positive alternative to prostitution, which is at an all time high in countries such as Cambodia, China and Africa.
The issue of the AMOUNT of pay that is provided for these people is still an issue, but I would rather have women working in sweat shops, then selling their bodies and souls in prostitution on the streets.

Posted By: Sarah Ardella | April 11, 2009 9:01 AM

In regards to your post, Anonymous, I have issues with considering a size 18/20 to be healthy. Yes - there are larger-boned women out there who are a healthy (not overly skinny, but healthy) body weight that wear a size 18/20. However, with the average American woman being 5'4" in height, a size 18/20 makes her significantly overweight, or obese. Americans are bigger now than ever before. There are lots of reasons why, but to keep redefining larger and larger as "healthy" doesn't help the situation. I do agree that there shouldn't be such a seperation of "plus" and "regular" sizing, but to consider a size 18/20 as healthy seems to be pushing it a bit, at least for the typical, average person.

Not only that, but sizing has changed in the last 40 years. With "vanity sizing", a pair of pants that would have been a size 12 years ago are now called a size 8 or even 6. This might make people feel better about themselves, but it also normalizes obesity on the larger end of the size spectrum. I am not making the "fat people are lazy" comment, but I do think that by normalizing obesity you do the general, long term health of people a disservice. I don't believe in basing your self esteem on what size pants you wear, but I do think accurately and properly understanding your own personal health is important to your mental and physical well being.

Posted By: toastmaster | August 12, 2009 2:10 PM

As an overweight teenager, i am ecstatic about the new Faith 21 line. Overweight women like myself struggle ti find clothes in larger sizes that are actually flattering. In response to lauren, they are not saying that being overweight and a larger size is "ok" and the faith 21 line is nor 'promoting' overweight individuals, they are just expanding their enterprise. Larger women deserve to wear the same fasions as other thinner women.

Posted By: Anonymous | August 13, 2009 10:54 PM