Her.meneutics: The Lutherans and Twister Theology

back to Christianity Today

RSS Feed | Help

e-mail to a friend

Twitter feed

What Is Her.meneutics?

The Christianity Today women's blog provides news and analysis from the perspective of evangelical women. We cover news stories and books related to international justice and evangelism, pregnancy and sexual ethics, marriage, parenting, and celibacy, pop culture, health and body image, raising girls, and women in the church and parachurch.

Her.meneutics is edited by associate editor Katelyn Beaty and online editor Sarah Pulliam Bailey.

interests

books and media

church life

justice and politics

relationships and family

sexuality and health

spirituality

theology

women of note

writers

Free Newsletters

more newsletters

books we're reading

blogs we're watching

« Breast-feeding Dolls: Cute or Creepy? | Main | Half the Sky: A Must-Read Book »

August 25, 2009

The Lutherans and Twister Theology

Julia's first-person account of the strange events at last week's ELCA convention.

Julia Duin

When is a warning from God not a warning from God? Or a "we can't tell whether or not it's a warning from God"?

This question came up last week while I was covering the church-wide assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) in Minneapolis. Members of America's largest Lutheran denomination voted to allow non-celibate gays to become clergy and paved the way for same-sex blessing ceremonies. Conservatives I talked to were devastated by the convention, but even they admitted that before the meeting began August 17, they knew they did not have enough votes to prevent the juggernaut.

Then the tornado came.

It was just before 2 p.m. on Wednesday, August 19, right before one of the first significant votes of the assembly. The Lutherans were slated to vote on a sexuality statement that, for the first time I know of, gave the gay-friendly view a place at the table as one of four theological positions Lutherans could have. If the statement passed, it indicated where the convention would go from that point on.

Then someone rushed into the press room and told us to vacate the place fast. A tornado had touched down close by, we were told. The police wanted us in a safe place away from the glass windows that encase the Minneapolis Convention Center.

Everyone rushed into the main hall to join some 1,045 voting members who were listening to a Bible study being led by a female preacher. (A few blogs say the debate on the statement had already begun, but that is not true. I was there). A palpable blanket of fear descended on the entire group as the doors to the outside hallways were shut, enclosing us in the giant hall, which was apparently was the safest place to be. We could hear the winds howling outside. I thought of my rental car parked nearby and hoped it would stay in one piece. After the Bible study, ELCA President Mark Hanson read the 121st Psalm to calm everyone down.

"We trust the weather is not a commentary on our work," said the Rev. Steven Loy, chairman of the ad hoc committee on the sexuality statement.

And a tornado was headed our way. Just after 2 p.m., the twister knocked the cross off the steeple of Central Lutheran Church, across the street from the convention center. I walked outside afterward to look at it; the steel cross was dangling high up in the air.

Things got even weirder. The sexuality statement needed a two-third majority to pass. Many folks weren't sure there were enough Lutherans there who would vote that way, and the vote came up rather suddenly near the end of the day. When the totals were announced, everyone gasped — the statement had passed by an exact two-thirds vote. One vote less would have killed it.

Later, some of us in the press room were discussing whether the Almighty had sent a tornado to send the Lutherans a message. After all, one of the reporters said, the ELCA endured an electrical storm during one of their previous conventions — where human sexuality was also on the table — in Orlando.

A Lutheran pastor I was talking to vividly remembered the Orlando incident. She felt the tornado was a message from God, a warning to not go in the direction the assembly was bent on following. She had been a missionary in Africa and over there, she said, people would have seen the dangling cross, stopped everything, and reconsidered.

If God was speaking in downtown Minneapolis through the twister, no one was listening. In fact, proponents of ordaining openly gay clergy could have seen the exact two-thirds total as a vindication of their point of view. And, if God had wanted to get through to the assembly, why didn't he send the tornado a day earlier so word would have gotten through to everyone?

Because most of the folks in the convention hall didn't even hear of the steeple incident until well after the vote. Some of the natives told me it was very weird for a tornado to even go through downtown Minneapolis. Not only that, the weather folks had failed to forecast a tornado that afternoon. The tornado, I heard on the news, just showed up.

John Piper, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church across town from the convention center, thought the tornado signified a warning from God to the Lutherans and posted this blog, which, within a few hours, had gotten more than 200 comments. (There were 674 last I looked; Piper posted a clarifying blog on Saturday) One clarification: Tornado winds did strike a few other places, mostly south of town, but fortunately no one was killed.

In contrast, Marty Duren of the Atlanta Southern Baptist Examiner warns people of ascribing motives to the Almighty for natural disasters. Is it possible that God already knew the Lutherans were going to vote, so he ripped off the cross from the nearest ELCA to show what he thought? Or does he simply not leave his calling card in such dramatic ways? If last week's events do not constitute God's warning — or judgment — what does?

Comments

Jesus' reply to the rich man in hell who was desperate for Lazarus to be sent to warn his brothers of their impending doom was that even if someone were to rise from the dead, they wouldn't believe.

When people are set on their own way, they will find anything to justify it. What a travesty that Martin Luther laid his life on the line to stand for the truths of the gospel, and his legacy is so destroyed in the name of political correctness. He was one of the most politically incorrect churchmen we've ever had the fortune to be led by. I'm not Lutheran, but I value his legacy and am grieved at the state of much of the church.

We can only extrapolate from this that God was OK with the decision made by the Episcopal Church earlier this summer. :)

I believe that last week in Minnespolis was a sad time in the history of orthodox Lutheranism in the United States. The Evanglical Lutheran Church in America appeared to have abandoned its roots in the authority of our Holy Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions as found in the Book of Concord. As a baptized, confirmed and active member of the predecessor and successor bodies of the ELCA for 82 years, it now becomes a difficult challenge to determine where to go. I had prayed fervently that "tongues of fire" might descend on the voting members of the assembly to be filled with the Holy Spirit, but instead a "mighty wind" in the form of a tornado appeared to be God's Call for wisdom and discernment. Many of us Lutherans wait to see what the fallout will be.

Luther reformed a church that taught that LAWS and REGULATIONS were the way to God and not salvation through the Grace of God given through Christ. Rather than claiming that Luther is spinning in his grave, how about consider that allowing homosexuals in the assembly is entirely consistent with a grace over legalism view of the Bible and signals another protestant denomination that is truly going back to it's roots and away from the laws and rules.

"Is it possible that God already knew the Lutherans were going to vote, so he ripped off the cross from the nearest ELCA to show what he thought?"

Is it possible? God didn't just know the ELCA was going to vote - He knew which way the vote would go. God is omniscient, and "tells the end from the beginning". He knew. Scripture is clear about that.

It didn't take God to see how this was going to unfold. I warned the bishop Mark Hanson three years ago that if he did not allow every member to vote with our hands, we will vote with our feet. I left my childhood ELCA this year for a large mega non-denominational church of some 8,000 that welcomes homosexuals but will never allow them to take control and pervert a church as they have done in most major denominations today. I felt real torn up about it until this spring when Fox News reported I am in the majority in doing what I did. After the vote last week, I FEEL GREAT! LOL

This is why I am not longer a Lutheran, Talk about divisive.

Okay, so if these homosexuals no longer have to abstain from their sinning does that mean that the guy who likes kiddies can now do his thing, that the adulterer no longer has to stop or pay a price for cheating, cheating on a test can now be done, you can kill or steal from someone now with not taking responsibility for doing so, you can lie whenever you want, and, after doing our sin, go to this Lutheran Church because how are you going to tell any other sinner to stop sinning and put their eyes on Jesus if you don't demand correction or give privileges to a particular sin without the requirement of putting their eyes on Jesus instead of the sin. Wow, having abnormal sex must really be such a strong desire of those who voted for it that they want Jesus to change for them because they gotta be able to have the sex. We may not see God show his anger in our time but I'm not taking the chance of having God angry with me, especially over sex. Really, sex is in the head, get control of yourselves, you voters, see a psychiatrist, and, change the name of your church as it no longer is a church of Martin Luther. It's an organization where you can keep on committing any sin you want with no consequences, it's secular religion. Your church is a lie right now and certainly will answer to God, not me because you can do want you want as it won't effect me as I'll continue to follow Jesus. We all answer to God eventually. You voters have forgotten that this is the whole concept of Christianity.

Interesting that it passed by EXACTLY 2/3.

That would be 66.6% or .666

I would like to say that the ELCA is not the whole Lutheran Church. The LCMS and WELS Synods do not subscribe to what the ELCA believes( we still believe in the bible as being Gods Word, without error). The ELCA split from those synods a long time ago because of the way they interpreted scripture. The ELCA right now is going to have a problem with alot of members and pastors wanting to leave. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod still has sound doctrine and has not trashed what Martin Luther fought for during the Reformation. Praise God for that!

God's position is clear. When we actually use His word as the basis of authority rather than our cultural norm or populist bent there is no debate.

Interesting to note that people are only commenting on the decision, and not the comments about the twister. Personally, I find such comments dangerous and rather inappropriate. It may be true that God intended for that message to get across through that means, but we don't speak for God. In the midst of a disaster, it is the job of the church to be compassionate and reach out to those effected, not to sit back and make comments such as those. I'm saddened that someone I respect as much as Piper would say that.

Can God use twisters for a specific purpose? Of course. However, sometimes a twister is just a twister. Even the most blameless people are swept up in them sometimes.

Twist for a twister mind. How about that? Remember the Tower of Babel? God confused the language & there was division among people. God's people, get out & find a True Church. Godbless.

I'd like to share three passages our pastor quoted last night in referrence to the need for all to repent. He pointed to the hurricane that all but destroyed New Orleans at the time of a homosexual festival, but I believe we have a similar situation here. God has used nature to remind us of HIS power and authority and to give us the chance to respond. In the first two passages below we see that the chastising of some is to lead to the repentence of all.

Luke 13:1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (ESV)

and from the book of revelation.... we see that time, knowledge and an increase in signs and wonders does not necessarily lead to repentence ...

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (ESV)

and the price for the lack of repentence is eternal:
1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous [2] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [3] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The key here is in the last verse: such were you but you were washed--- only by repentence and cleansing in the blood of Jesus can forgiveness be found.

Sin is sin. God calls us to repent, not to justify our sin. He knows we are week, but he doesn't make excuses for us. Had he chosed that route, there would have been no need to send His Son to die for us.

We do not expect friends to forgive us if we don't say sorry and try to change our ways, why should we expect that of God?

When Jesus was here did he strike us with disease, tell buildings to fall, or whip up storms to destroy? No, he healed the sick, raised the dead, and calmed the storm. Jesus is our best picture of who God is and what he intends for us. Jesus is the place to start and the place to end.
I read the Piper posts and many of the comments that followed. I had to stop because it was so depressing. We were Christians at our worst: vehement, defensive, arrogant, dogmatic, unteachable. There are times when we need to stand firm, but surely believing God causes natural disasters to happen to give us a warning is not an essential of our faith.

Shala, in those passages, it was God telling us that he had done these things. There is a difference between seeing that in Scripture and in human beings thinking that they know why God has done something. It is dangerous to think we speak for God in that manor. God wants us to reach out to the sinners and love them. Yes, we can point out their error, but in a loving manor. Telling them that a disaster came because of their sin when we don't know that is not loving.

Also, in Job, God clearly rebukes those who take another persons suffering and assume they know God's reason behind it. These comments on the twister sound a lot like Job's friends to me.

Yes, it is dangerous to say it's raining today because you ...... " However, I believe it's perfectly with in the realm of scripture to say:
God controls weather
The Bible condemn homosexuality in various places
Perhaps we should consider whether or not this storm was a warning for us from God, perhaps we should look at this issue one more time.

It is God's mercy and love that allows a storm or a period of difficulty to turn us from sin. If God did not love us so, He would not bother to send us wake up calls.

Sometimes we make mistakes in thinking that love is accepting others sin. Jesus showed us both incredible love and forgiveness as well as an incredible intollerance for sin resulting of a hardness of heart and unwillingness to repent.

Jesus did not send storms - he did not have to, he was the storm, in a metaphorical sense.

But he did explain that we should allow natural disasters, suffering, etc to awaken our sensitivity to our own moral and sinful state.

As for Job, God rebukes Job's friends because they do not come to comfort him but to show their own wisdom based on the theory that if Job is suffering and they aren't it means that they have it right. God explains that it's not that simple. (Job's suffereing should have lead them all to examine their lives, could they cope with such pain?)

Sin is sin. We have a responsibility as Christians to call sin sin and to seek mutual purity within the church. The church is our body - if part of your own physical body is suffering, you try to figure out the problem and seek healing. ignoring the problem or just increasing the dose of painkillers rarely proves to be a good move in the end. It is the same with the church. It's in a spirit of love that we should help our church remain healthy. Sin, left unconfessed ultimately distroys. This starts with us - am I filling the role I am supposed to? But it cannot exclude corporate responsibility. How else would you interpret:

5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. [1]

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges [2] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” (ESV)

Shala

Being Who & What God IS, God (fore)knew (1) that the issue would come to a vote, then & there, (2) how the vote would go, (3) that there would be a twister then & there, (4) of the dramatically humbled steeple cross on the adjacent Lutheran Church (by the way, which brand?), (5) THE CONSEQUENCES YET TO COME OF ALL OF THIS. Having reminded myself of these things, can't we can all begin to relax a bit, & let God do what God fore-knows, in the times (sic!) ahead of us. We might do well, though, to yield ourselves to Him and ask to be used in His Will.....and somehow not to let self impede (I've spent a long lifetime in the impeding business, by the way. It isn't productive). Now, listen to one another, and to HIM. ------- Straight Scientist From Missouri.

My best guess is that in most Evangelical megachurches the attitude towards homosexuality is "Don't ask, Don't tell"

Now regarding the wrath of God...What are we supposed to say when calamity falls on Christians or on churches. When 4 people were killed by Matthew Murray at New Life Church in Colorado in 2007 was this a visitation of God's wrath due to the sins of Ted Haggard? I guess that most would say No! Before we interpret these "Acts of God" that fall on liberals or non-believers as God's judgment we should, be fair and be willing to accept them as possible acts of wrath when they happen to us.

Original Anna writes: "Okay, so if these homosexuals no longer have to abstain from their sinning does that mean that the guy who likes kiddies can now do his thing,.."

Right. Because two adults in a committed relationship is just like a man raping children.

If Original Anna is doing an impersonation of a dirt-stupid Christian, she's doing a great job.

Great post and wonderful to hear from someone who was there. I'm LCMS Lutheran - conservative - with a lot of ELCA friends who are heartbroken over this vote. Yes, Christ died for our sins and in him we are dead to sin. Paul warns "Do we continue to sin so that Grace may abound?" the answer is no. Being a new creation in Christ means leaving the former life behind. This will be interesting.

I grew up in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod and the particular church that I attended had a big split over the question how much the pastor had authority over some issues in the church. There were several meetings held with both supporters and opponets of the pastor met and discussed (?) the matter. I wasn't present at several of the meetings,but my parents attended and there were even members of the district office there. In the end, a member of the district office got up and told everyone that both sides had valid and right reasons for their side and both sides had invalid and wrong reasons for their side. He gave the district's viewpoint with supporting scripture and sat down as it was the congregation's right to decide. The pastor got up and said "that's not how MY BIBLE reads". I have left the LCMS long ago because of this and joined a congregation of the Christian Church/Churches of Christ. Like with being with the LCMS, I do not agree with all positions of that or my current denomination, but I agree with a majority of its stands. I have read all of the comments posted for this and it seems to me that a majority of the comments are very hateful. Yes, I agree that there are going to be a difference of opinions, in every denomination as well as individual congregations, but I think most problems can be resolved with out few, if any, hard feelings. If an individual or small group disagree with the positions of the church, they should be allowed to leave and to find a church that is more to their liking.
I have a cousin who is gay, and even though I don't agree with his lifestyle, I am not going to rebuke him or not ever see him again, because Jesus says that loving your neighbor is THE correct thing to do. I feel that so many Christians feel that condemning things like homosexuality, adultery and so many other things is VERY UNCHRISTIAN like behaviour. Thanks Doug Lass

We might all of us resonate to Doug Lass's comments. Some will react to the glib riposte of Doug's (former) Pastor, in reply to the middle-of-the road District Leader. It would have been better had he replied "That's not how I(underline) read MY(!) Bible". But, as we all must, he speakes for himself. So did Martin Luther, and many of us believe that Luther spoke for us (& before us). How do WE read OUR Bibles? ---- Jesu thumped His Bible (O.T) far less than we His followers do, and He showed Himself to be rather impatient (to put it mildly) with the structure and the officials of the church of His time. From this we might learn that the Message is more important than any particular messenger (Pastor?). Now, before you wonder about MY "brand" of Lutheranism, let me reveal that I am solidly (o.k. 93%) Lutheran (MARTIN Lutheran, that is). I have close affinity with Anglicans, and I'm optimistically waiting for the Roman and Orthodox Churches to catch up. As for the rest of Protestantism, I know we will all of us 'party' together with Him in His Place, eventually. NO, I'm NOT Universalist, I'm really Luthetran. -----Englemann

What does God have to do to wake you Lutherans up?
Church rituals and church dogma, man-made traditions since the formations of Constantine's Council of Nicea met in 325 AD to form the pagans and Christians into one body of believers.
For 1700 years, the Prot. and Catholics have been leading the people away from bible truths.
Isn't it time to undo your brains and do what GOD SAYS YOU SHOULD DO, --TAKE HIS WORDS LITERALLY, OBSERVE THE 10 COMANDMENTS , KEEP THE 4TH AND SEE GREAT BLESSINGS FALL ON THE CHURCHES.
Having homosexuals and lesbians in a church posing as righteous clergy is in direct violation of what Paul wrote in the 2nd book of Timothy.
They repent -change --ok
They reject the forgiveness of their sins , I say -throw them out.
Does GOD have to create a earthquake to swallow this church up before you can understand what you have done?
RichARD

Sun	Mon	Tue	Wed	Thu	Fri	Sat
	1	2	3	4	5	6
7	8	9	10	11	12	13
14	15	16	17	18	19	20
21	22	23	24	25	26	27
28

Hermenuetics

What Is Her.meneutics?

interests

writers

Free Newsletters

books we're reading

blogs we're watching

The Lutherans and Twister Theology

Comments

recent posts

Archives

Hermenuetics

What Is Her.meneutics?

interests

writers

Free Newsletters

books we're reading

blogs we're watching

The Lutherans and Twister Theology

Comments

recent posts

tags

Archives