Hermenuetics

Comments

"Churches also teach that men should be the spiritual leaders of their families,"

Part of the solution, IMO, is to cease with the complementarian hierarchy in the family and promote the mutuality and unity of husband and wife as one body. It may be that some young women (like me when I was unmarried) are looking for a man who will value and affirm her equality and form a true partnership rather than seeking to establish his "authority." It may be that many Christian young men want this, also, but are too afraid to speak up because they have been taught that they are "supposed" to be the "leader" rather than a partner. It sometimes seems like non-Christian men are far more likely to do this than those who have been indoctrinated in evangelicalism's idea of Man=Leader/Woman=Follower. Thank God I found a man who seeks true unity in our marriage, rather than to dominate.

Do not walk in front of me - I may not follow, Do not walk behind me - I may not lead, Walk beside me and be my friend.

Posted By: Robyn | September 23, 2009 11:07 AM

It’s interesting, though, that two prominent men...have taken up the gauntlet for early marriage, while no women that I’m aware of have.

I have, though I'm not "prominent."

I see no reason why either men or women exclusively must "initiate" in terms of marriage...seems to me that a man & woman can both initiate, in various ways, the process of getting to know each other, and together figure out whether marriage is a prospect. I'm fairly certain that's how it happens most of time anyway, whether the man takes the formal lead, or presents the proposal, or not.

There's no guarantee that someone in their 30s is significantly more mature than someone in their 20s anyway, and besides, is anyone ever really ready for marriage? The maturity bar needn't be set overly high as a requirement for getting married.

If a young person adopts the idea that sex really should be reserved for marriage, then he (or she) might work a little harder to make himself marriage-ready, and thereby mature more quickly.

Posted By: Bonnie | September 23, 2009 11:15 AM

I must say the seemingly skeptical question about why "prominent men" are discussing this seems a bit gratuitous. One of the most prominent and thoughtful Christian women writing on these issues, Frederica Mathewes-Green, wrote a much-discussed essay in National Review Online called "Let's Have More Teen Pregnancy" in 2002. More to the point, I don't think there is any lack of young women (Christian or not) who would love to progress toward marriage and are held back by a scarcity of men their age who are seeking the same thing.

A key underlying question is whether maturity is a prerequisite for, or a fruit of, a marriage supported by a robust network of family and community. Surely the answer is both, to some degree, but there is a good case to be made that we have so emphasized the need to "find yourself" before you find your mate that we have neglected the possibility that most people are meant to come to maturity in precisely the context that most demands it—lavishly encouraged and counseled during the inevitable hard times by both peers and mentors in the Christian community.

Posted By: Andy Crouch | September 23, 2009 2:56 PM

I would like further explanation on what is meant by maturity in Christian men. What qualities would an immature man display and what qualities would mark a mature man?

Posted By: SLF | September 23, 2009 5:11 PM

Perhaps one reason, at least in Christian circles, is that young women just aren’t encountering mature, marriageable Christian men. “There just aren’t as many serious Christian young men as there are women,” Regnerus pointed out.

I've thought a lot about the above.

IMHO, Christian women (especially from middle class backgrounds) just don't want to leave behind the comforts of their parent's home and enter a marriage that will require a sacrifice. In other words, they want to maintain their standard of living or improve their standard of living through marriage. They simply don't want to get married and move into an inexpensive apartment, have to save money, and eventually buy a starter home, etc.

Most Christian women in their very early 20's are clueless about what it costs to live (since they always lived at home)and most young men in their 20's realize they don't earn the kind of money needed to provide a standard of living required by young Christian women. Thus, they tend to establish themselves in a career, try to get promotions, pay off student loans, and save money so they can be a provider. All of this takes time, so 30+ is not unreasonable.

I conclude that the young men may be mature, but it is the young women who have unrealistic expectations.

Posted By: Larry | September 23, 2009 5:49 PM

I'm the author the the National Fatherhood Initiative report referred to in the blog post. The relevant differences in the two charts on page 19 of that report are between those who married at ages 23-27 and those who married at age 28 or older. The differences all indicate that persons who married at ages 23-27 had higher marital success (as defined)on average than those who married later. All of the differences are statistically significant at the .001 level on a two-tailed test. That of course means that the differences are very unlikely to have resulted entirely from chance.

I must quickly add, however, that the report does not conclude from those differences that marrying at ages 23-27 rather than later necessarily causes people to have more successful marriages. It could be that the people who marry in their mid-twenties tend to be the kinds of people who would on average have had successful marriages if they had for some reason married later. What the data do mean is that for many people, ages 23-27 is not too young for marriage--contrary to the advice often given to young people these days.

I, along with two colleagues, recently completed an academic paper (presented at the American Sociological Association meetings in San Francisco last month) that reports a thorough study of this issue that drew on data from five large American sample surveys. I'll be glad to send copies of the paper to anyone who is interested. Send requests to me at norvalglenn@yahoo.com.

Posted By: Norval D. Glenn | September 23, 2009 6:53 PM

Wow. My experience is just about the polar opposite of Larry's. Nearly every Christian single young woman I knew when I was in my 20's did not live with her parents, was college-educated and independent, and supported herself financially, usually living in an inexpensive apartment with roommates. I knew very, very few who were looking for a husband to provide for her "in the style to which she was accustomed." I guess it really depends on the local sub-culture in which you live.

Posted By: Robyn | September 23, 2009 7:29 PM

"I would like further explanation on what is meant by maturity in Christian men. What qualities would an immature man display and what qualities would mark a mature man?"

--That's a good question. Mature Christian men are willing to pursue their inspirations and work to make them happen, regardless of the possibility of failure. That means, in this realm, a man seriously interested in a mature Christian woman should pursue her and stop waiting for lightning to strike, for the rest of his life to magically align, or for his weak spots to disappear. He may be rejected, but he will grow. In my experience, Christian men get their knickers in a twist when they're interested in a girl. They worry about the responsibility, that they're not ready, that they won't be accepted... or at least I presume. I'm a girl :). if you really have found a good woman, she will accept you the way you are and inspire you to become better. And let's face it: marriage teaches maturity. We can't stop pursuing good things just because we're imperfect people.

Posted By: Esther | September 23, 2009 9:07 PM

The statement "young women just aren't encountering mature, marriageable Christian men" is absolutely incorrect. Mature, marriageable Christian men are everywhere in the church, unfortunately young women would rather reject them instead of allowing the chance for a relationship to grow and develop. The epidemic of singleness among Christian young women is due to their perfectionism. Unless young Christian women understand that every person is flawed and in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they will continue to find themselves single. To the question "where are all the mature, marriagable Christian men?", the answer is clear: "they are all on your 'rejected' list!"

Posted By: James | September 23, 2009 9:28 PM

Thanks for the comments, Dr. Glenn — I didn't intend my comments to come across as criticism of your research. You provide some helpful clarifications.

Posted By: Ruth | September 23, 2009 9:34 PM

Ester, I disagree with you. This article is very accurate. There aren't many mature, marriageable christian young men. Our churches are full of women, children under 18, and old men, not young men. I am a 50 yr. old woman. I married when I was 19, my husband was almost 21. We came from 2 very different religous backgrounds. I listen to these so called "christian" young men, and they don't want marriage, nor committment, let alone being mature enough for marriage. Read Dr. Dobson's "Focus on the Family" article titled "30 Going on 18", Feb. 2007. Guess what it's about. I was listening to Dennis Rainey on "Family Life" just 3 wks. ago interview young "chrisitan" men, and what their views on life are, and they admitted that most guys nowadays don't believe in marriage, even so called "christian" ones. They also do not want to initiate, they would rather the girl do it, because it's easier. I am a christian, but, I blame evangelical's for alot of this. Pastor's have been telling young people to "wait" for marriage, (whatever that is supposed to mean), all because they want to stop the bloodletting of divorce that is happening in the church at the same, or greater rate than the 'un-churched". They have set up our young people to fail. Look at all the shack-up relationships going on in our churches that pastor's are turning a blind eye to. It's not necessarily a case of too young, or marrying the wrong person, but, I believe most of it is a lack of COMMITMENT! The thinking today is "If it gets hard...run!" Our church leaders have followed the ways of the world's way of thinking, and have turned our young men into wimps and girls manly. What I am saying isn't popular, but, it's the truth. Look at the toll this way of thinking has done to our families. They are on the brink of collapse. Read Voddie Baucham's book, "What He Needs to Be...before he can marry my daughter." The stats are out there that prove I'm telling the truth, no matter how unpopular it may be.

Posted By: Lynne | September 24, 2009 12:53 AM

I wouldn't pin the entire blame on either men or women. To claim that it's all because of men that women are single reminds me of those True Forced Loneliness men who believe it's everybody else's fault and that they themselves are great. I've seen quite a few women who are single who will probably remain single for a long time because they do not know how to act around men and men are turned off by people who are creepy and desperate just as much as women are. There are also women who are indeed perfectionists and will have to wait a long time until they find the perfect man. I definitely don't want to suggest that all or even most single women fit into either category–some, like my best friend who is neither creepy nor a perfectionist, simply seem to have bad luck and I don't understand why anymore than she does–but there are other factors besides the immaturity of men. Women, as with men, who want to marry should not always seek to blame everybody else for their inability to do so.

Posted By: Merciel | September 24, 2009 1:08 AM

Isn't Gerson's argument the same as the Apostle Paul's? If you can't control yourself, get married!

1 Cor 7:8-9 "Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

Posted By: Ryan | September 24, 2009 10:20 AM

Larry's and James' arguments that single women are clueless creatures who are on the make for guys making over 80K - or that they're just perfectionists - both utterly miss the mark. There's been a crisis of lack of marriageable single men for several decades in the church and basically no one has cared enough about the single women left destitute by the skewed gender ratios to do anything about it. I was at a press conference with James Dobson at the Focus on the Family headquarters in 1995 and I asked him about how he deals with families of one. He just looked at me and mumbled a non-answer. He could not comprehend this hidden population I was talking about.
I think one reason women may be slower in lauding early marriage is that they pay the biggest price for that decision. That is, they're the ones getting pregnant and giving up their jobs whereas their husbands get to whiz up the career ladder. It is tough being a working - or stay-at-home mom - you put out in ways your spouse never will.

Posted By: Julia Duin | September 24, 2009 11:11 AM

It is true that young women are not meeting spiritually mature men who can lead them. You cannot, however, take this reality and say that Gerson's support for younger marriage is unfounded. I am not an advocate for getting married simply for sex, but if a young couple has proven maturity, compatibility, and has built a foundation on God, there is no reason CULTURE should tell them that they are crazy for getting married younger. The church should empower them to go through with marriage. Regarding spiritual maturity of men, perhaps it is the breakdown of our culture that ALLOWS young men to never feel like they have to grow up. It does say in the bible that men must be spiritually mature, but where does it say that they must make significant monies and reach a certain cultural norm of success before marrying? If he is hardworking and entrusting of the Lord with his career, do you believe that God will provide? Where is your faith?

To say: there are no spiritual mature men, so let's just follow culture and get married later is not the right solution. Let's, instead, examine why there are fewer men than women and challenge young Christian males to mature, step up, take initiative and have healthy courtships.

In my opinion, culture has seeped into the church -- Christians' thinking it is too weird to marry young has caused dysfunctional Christian courtships in which a lot of God's boundaries are disobeyed. In Christian and non-christian relationships alike, 90% of couples are having sex. Somewhere, we are failing, and I think it is the church's failure to empower young people to grow up and embrace early marriage. This failure leaves many to go along with the culture.

Posted By: JYJ920 | September 24, 2009 1:12 PM

I can't comment on the lack of Christian men who are marriageable in the emotional/mental sense, because I wasn't a marriageable woman due to not being feminine in a conventional sense. Tastes for science-fiction, fantasy, comic books, and gaming are usually considered to be both immature and more masculine than feminine, but tended to be particularly taboo in the church communities I've been with. All I can say is that my husband is now the envy of basically every other married man we know, because he has a wife who not only doesn't mind if he sometimes plays Xbox all night, but will happily join in on some multi-player Halo to boot. It's really quite ironic that what put me off the dating radar at Bible college is considered an enviable quality now that I'm married. It's even more ironic that I wound up marrying that Bible college dean's son. :D Well, the dean's a swell guy. We've been known to play Halo together too.

While Larry and James are arguing generalities that I don't necessarily agree with - and it's hard to argue specifics across such a huge topic - I do think there's a good argument to be made that young people of either sex are wrongly delaying marriage on financial grounds. My wish is that my peers - regardless of gender - would stop fretting and obsessing over whether or not they can "afford" to get married, and avoiding or delaying marriage based on those grounds. The need to be established before getting married is, to paraphrase Robert A. Heinlein, lies and other comments. Finances were a societal marriage requirement for so long, with dowries being deal-breakers, but more recent generations have married without such considerations and then gone on to build their lives together - saving for a house, a car, a nest egg, whatever, as a couple, instead of as individuals. The big idea now is that you should complete at least one post-secondary degree, own your own car, have your own roommate-free place, and probably also have started an RRSP before considering marriage, because it would be irresponsible to do otherwise. But I can't help but wonder how strongly this idea is caused by and/or contributes to the divorce crisis - requiring these things prior to marriage feels to me like a subconscious safety net, the subtle reassurance that if the marriage doesn't work out, you'll still be okay.

Hmm. Looking at those goals, it makes perfect sense that people are marrying at 28 or later - these are not goals you can meet quickly!

And from the completely biased perspective of a 25 year-old who married in 2006 with no financial security and a low standard of living with two years of trade school still to complete, I can't imagine how much poorer our marriage would be without the ability to progress and grow toward material goals together. The smallest things are huge sources of accomplishment and pride; his successes are my successes and vice-versa. It's the best thing ever.

Posted By: elly | September 24, 2009 2:24 PM

I'm not sure who these people are holding out for later marriage - I've seen the evangelical church doing a pretty good job of encouraging young marriage, even for people who have addictions and irresponsibilities that will make them fabulous candidates for contributing to the famous 50% divorce rate. At age 30, I've already seen college classmates who got the "ring by spring" divorce. Others, however, have made young marriages work and have blessed their communities through it.

Rather than shifting blame all over in broad generalizations (like "single women are all perfectionists"?!? I know several who settled and 5 years later are sorry!), how about we focus on helping men and women, regardless of age, marital status, economic situation, etc. build genuine brother- and sisterhood in the church, and grow in the knowledge and love of Christ, wherever he leads them?

Posted By: Rachel | September 24, 2009 3:26 PM

I don't oppose early marriage so much as quick marriage. Too often do I see a couple date for a few months and marry a few months later; they haven't even known each other as people for a year! Perhaps they will last, but surely I'm not the only one who thinks that's a bit hasty, am I?

"And from the completely biased perspective of a 25 year-old who married in 2006 with no financial security and a low standard of living with two years of trade school still to complete, I can't imagine how much poorer our marriage would be without the ability to progress and grow toward material goals together."

That's a wonderful point, elly! It would definitely be much more of a blessing to grow, learn, and suffer with the one you love than to do it separately. Perhaps that might be why later marriages are not as happy; they haven't learn to sacrifice their individuality that they spent so many years establishing.

Posted By: Merciel | September 24, 2009 3:46 PM

First off I am a woman. I have two godly sons in their early to mid-twenties who are seeking godly women to marry. The women they have encountered though Christians are far too wrapped up in pursuit their careers and have bought into the idea that they should not marry until mid-to late 30's. The church and we parents have done a dis-service to our kids by encouraging purity on one hand and late marriage on the other. The author states (somewhat ignorantly)"Should a lack of self-control be rewarded with early gratification? To say nothing of evangelical churches and families, it doesn’t seem like that mindset will lead to a healthy society at large" My answer to this. Marrying in one's twenties is NOT early gratification when you consider the age that hormones start raging. Get real!!! And when you consider how a "healthy socieity" is propogated (through marriage and having children) the idea of waiting until your eggs are old and your purity pledge is broken does nothing to promote a healthy society.
I am offended that everyone is placing the blame on the young men. Young ladies, if you want a godly man, act godly. Godliness is not synonymous with an attitude that says if you ask me out for coffee you want something more...
Bring back the kind of dating that existed when I was young. Stop making is so difficult for a young man to meet you. Stop trying to "lead". Stop looking for every guy to be the next youth pastor at your church. There are godly men who are in every field. They may not be charismatic upfront leaders at your church, they may be the kind of guy who can quietly lead your home without being in the limelight. That quiet guy at church? Say hello to him. Give him a chance to talk to you. Go out for coffee, you may be pleasantly surprised.

I am one who married young. After 35 years I can say that marriage is hard work no matter what age you marry. But I have the wonderful memory of struggling together for our first house, trying to make ends meet etc. This helped us to grow together as a couple. Why do women think that they need an established career and then marriage? Why not struggle together and grow together as a team? (FYI, I have a college degree and a career and early marriage did not keep me from it)
Lastly, the author asks, "Why aren't women taking up the gauntlet for early marriage?"

The real answer may not be the lack of godly men seeking or initiating with godly women. The real problem may very well be the independently minded, career-oriented, let-me-run-the- relationship women who wouldn't let a godly man lead them if he tried.

Signed,
A frustrated mom who very much wants her sons to have godly wives and not have to keep their purity until 40 to do it.

Posted By: Withheld | September 24, 2009 6:39 PM

I am a 41 year old never married female, not through choice I should add, I have wanted to get married since about age 28. I had my first, and only, relationship at age 30 up until earlier this year, he kept making empty promises about marrying, until we finally did get engaged last Christmas. However he ended everything three months later with a text message, too much of a coward to face me.

I'm not a career minded person and have only wanted to settle down and build a life with my husband TOGETHER but it would seem that so many men don't want this. I'm a very loyal, and caring person and not bad looking from what I'm told but sadly so many men don't, or wont grow up. What are us slightly older women supposed to do? Raging hormones and immense frustration are not good! I've been in tears writing this, I can only hope I'll meet someone very soon as I'm so tired of waiting, being lied to and of being alone :-(

Posted By: Cat | September 24, 2009 9:47 PM

Frankly, there is plenty of blame to go around for the current mess which Christians singles find.

First, the church has largely failed to teach the importance of the family as the foundational building block of the created order. We have allowed the worlds view of "personal" satisfaction and achievement to entice both men and women to pursue education and career as personal goals, with marriage and family coming in a distant third and fourth on the list of importance. God established the family long before the church, yet we seem to treat church as a more important pursuit than marriage and family.

Second, read authors like Debbie Maken and you will find "Christian" authors who absolutely reek of feminism. Her writings about "parity" and "marrying down", asserting the importance of education, career and then marriage, is exactly what the radical feminists teach. Any "Christian" young lady who follows drivel of that sort is immediately eliminated from the pool of potential marriage candidates by young men seeking a wife who is more committed to him than to her career.

Third, todays Christian men are surrounded on every side with sexual temptation. For some reason the church seems to think that telling men to wait till they are 30 plus to even consider marriage, while at the same time to remain sexually pure, leads to a large number of men who simply give in to the lust of the flesh and succumb to the many temptations available. And almost always they leave the church, convinced that the message they were given was both useless in helping them avoid immorality and they now carry the burden of guilt for failing to keep themselves sexually pure. In other words, the church is failing men miserably.

I have a close friend,(wife's relative) who is financially secure, lives in a rural midwest area, farms for a living,
so he can not move to where the young ladies are, farm land is sorta hard to pack up and move. Yet he can not get a date, let alone find a wife. All the "Christian" young ladies moved off to the city in pursuit of "financial security", cappuccino stores on every corner, fast food available at any moment, entertainment every evening, and a compliant guy to add to their resume. So he's now approaching the age of 30, and no eligible Christian young women on the horizon. He's very frustrated, and it makes me angry. Here's a great Christian guy who wants a Godly wife, and on the web women are whining that no "Christian" guys are available.

Maybe the women need to refocus on their priorities. Seeking a Godly mate over career and education. Of course that might require changing to a complementarian view of the role of women, but I guess having two cats and your own home can be satisfying.

Posted By: farmer Tom | September 24, 2009 9:50 PM

Tom and name withheld. I have both sexes of children. My son is 24 and is encountering the type of women that both of you are complaining about. BUT, I also have a 27 yr. old daughter with the same problem. I listen to these young guys talk, they all want the beauty queen type, while they are fat/overweight and don't take care of themselves. How many of them look at the quiet, chubby, or plain girl?????? My daughter is a very pretty woman, and she is very tired of these late 30 to early 40 yr. guys hitting on her! I blame the pastor's, who are suppposed to be the leader's, and their world views they are teaching. They emphasize purity with girls more than they do boys. Dobson, Eric and Leslie Ludy, Elizabeth Elliot, Dennis Rainey, ad naseum. I have personally called or written to these people and challenged them about this. They agree that what I say is true, but, that is all the further it goes. My son has a better chance than my daughter does in finding "unused goods". Young men today are wimps. They should be taught that part of being a man is taking chances, and possibly being rejected. It's a part of life. My daughter met, and got to know 2 so called "youth" pastors/ministers". What a joke! They turned up their noses at the line of work she is in. Same thing when she met so called 'youth" pastors/
ministers" on a popular christian dating site. So the wanting of a mate with a glamorous career goes both ways. It all comes down to wanting material goods and status. Real good "christian" values! NOT! There again, I blame our church leaders for this mind set.
Way too many pastors don't look at being a pastor as a calling, as God commands, but, more as their "career". Listen to them talk!! I'm just as frustrated, as are my young adult children. Also...Tom, your wife's relative that farms. I have relatives that are farmers too. My question to your wife's relative is this. He will expect his wife to help with the farm chores...right??? Will he be willing to help with the household chores also, or will that be strictly her domain????
Ask my relatives how that one worked out.

Posted By: Lynne | September 24, 2009 10:43 PM

Combine a scant generation of women slowly coming to have some of the same choices to develop their lives as freely as men have always had with a "purity" movement in which women have begun to ask "if I'm remaining pure, you are, too, right?", and all of a sudden some men are waking up and noticing that such a combination might mean, contrary to the double standards of yore, that it might be YEARS until they can legitimately have sex. OMG! Crisis! Danger Will Robinson! We can't ask our young men to deal with raging hormones in the same way we've always demanded that young women control them, now, can we? So, a bunch of men are telling young women it will be better for WOMEN if women swear off their new-found freedom and jump into marriage and child-bearing?

Doesn't this faintly echo the conceit of date-rapists, lounge lizards, and misogynists everywhere, that they know better than the woman what the woman really wants or what's best for her? And, this must be true, because we're told by a "comedian" over at Radical Womanhood, a complementarian blog promoted by CT, that "Women’s brains are very very different from men’s brains. Women’s brains are made up of a big ball of wire.... Everything is connected to everything.... It’s like the internet superhighway and its all driven by energy we call emotion." http://solofemininity.blogs.com/posts/2009/09/the-nothing-box.html (start at 2:06)

And CT is unclear why women aren't jumping right on the early marriage bandwagon? Julia Duin says "I think one reason women may be slower in lauding early marriage is that they pay the biggest price for that decision." Ya think?

People should get married when they want to get married, when God leads them to the right person at the right time. For some, that's young and for some, it's older. For some, it's not at all. But the complementarians need to realize that the vision they offer for marriage is just not all that appealing to women who are forever on the wrong end of their hierarchy. (Right on, Robyn!)

I think I'll let God decide to whom She gives which gifts and talents, including the gifts of leadership, ministry, career, and homemaking.

Posted By: Christian Lawyer | September 25, 2009 12:01 AM

"It’s interesting, though, that two prominent men...have taken up the gauntlet for early marriage, while no women that I’m aware of have."

Read Candice Watters' articles on boundless.org (a Focus on the Family website for young adults). She also wrote a book called "Get Married: What Women Can Do to Help it Happen"

Posted By: Single Christian female | September 25, 2009 5:19 PM

Perhaps further comments from allegedly prominent males on the issue of age at marriage among evangelicals is not needed, but having read the fascinating and provocative comments, I cannot refrain from making two points.

First, the fact that evangelicals are unusually likely to adhere to the ideal that the husband should be the sole or primary breadwinner may contribute to the conundrum. The earnings of young males in constant dollars have declined in recent years (in large part because of the increase in the labor force participation of women), so that neither the men themselves nor the women who evaluate them as prospective husbands are likely to consider most men to be able to assume the role of sole or primary breadwinner until they are a several years beyond high school or a few years beyond college. I don't know what can be done about this likely reason for the conundrum.

Second, the belief that persons should not marry until they achieve a very high level of maturity also contributes to the conundrum, because most persons don't achieve that level of maturity until after they marry and have children. The increase in the typical age at first marriage is one of the main reasons that people don't mature as rapidly as they once did. Of course, the more mature people are when they marry, the better, all else being equal, but the maturity bar can be set too high.

Posted By: Norval D. Glenn | September 26, 2009 2:56 PM

Also...Tom, your wife's relative that farms. I have relatives that are farmers too. My question to your wife's relative is this. He will expect his wife to help with the farm chores...right??? Will he be willing to help with the household chores also, or will that be strictly her domain????
Ask my relatives how that one worked out.

That made me laugh!

First, since you do not know the situation, let me assure you that the only chores around that particular operation involve feeding the dog. Unless you count driving the brand new 4x4 pickup to town for parts, as a chore.

Second, what would be wrong with a woman helping her husband with some part of the "family" business? Don't you know any families who run a hardware store as a husband and wife team, or a doctor's office,(my former doctor and his wife did that for years) or maybe a restaurant? See the term family farm means something. This young man works with three other family members and several part time employees. Do you have some Biblical reason which precludes a wife from helping in the family operation, whether it's driving to town after parts or if she is capable of driving a tractor, running a grain cart or a ripper??

I get the strong impression that when you think "farmer, you think hayseed hick, in a trailer house, with 6 coon hounds, a chicken coop and several head of hogs free roaming in the back yard, instead of a college educated, computer savvy, young man who has incorporated GPS technology, computer mapping, and Auto-steer systems into his farming business.

Of course I could be wrong. But, what ever, the facts are that this young man is making a 6 figure income, owns his home, car, pickup, and a couple of semi-trucks, with one full time employee. And he can't get a date cause he lives more than 10 miles from civilization, has moral standards, plus wants a wife who is willing to serve in the church, forsake all others(including her career), so that she can be the kind of wife Paul commends in Titus 2,

"4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."

And that may be the core of the problem, since the typical reaction of a young lady who claims the name of Christ, when asked if she is willing to be a Titus 2 kind of wife, is just like the typical feminist,........... you're a chauvinist, patriarchal, narrow minded, misogynist, and I wouldn't marry you if you were the last man on earth.

Posted By: farmer Tom | September 26, 2009 8:13 PM

Lynne, AMEN! and WORD! to your entire post. Please, please, please, from this single 29-year-old church woman, keep saying what you are saying and confronting those in leadership positions. I know so many of my girlfriends who would LOVE nothing better than to meet a great guy - and their standards for a guy, financially/ physically/ spiritually, are embarassingly low. Although most of the guys are relatively average and mediocre, they do expect a woman who is out of their league. Most guys, some with very very checkered pasts, expect a Christian girl with no past. Some guys will talk about a girl's "submissive" spirit early in the dating process - when she really has no reason to submit to them at all, yet. Guys are more guilty of seeking out "perfection" than women, in my experience. They also tend, past the age of 25, to be behind women in terms of responsibility or career achievement. They tend to take worse care of themselves, and then criticize women who aren't in great shape.

Christian Lawyer, good points - I agree. One reason women are reluctant to jump into an early marriage is that, for married men, if a guy has to move for his job or make financial sacrifices for his job or spend a lot of time at his job, that is expected and the wife is expected (especially before kids) to support that. However, most guys get married - especially in the church - in the expectation that the wife will be a supporting player to his career by maintaining the homefront while he goes off to work. A woman who gets married as a receptionist and decides to become a doctor - or a woman whose career advancement (i.e. security) demands that she move to another state - likely faces life changes that many husbands will not adapt to as well as if the genders were reversed. I've seen it happen with girlfriends who married young then, upon learning they couldn't have children, opted for very successful, enjoyable, profitable careers - many of their husbands filled for divorce, often for less accomplished and less attractive women. Men marry women expecting them not to change. Since I didn't want to work as a receptionist forever, I pursued more eduction while remaining in a relationship with a Christian guy. He felt I wasn't spending enough time with him. After that ended, I dated another guy who thought that his associates degree and poverty level income was sufficient to demand that I cut law school classes to help him out around the house.

I've finally met a wonderful Christian man who is fine with my career demands - most of the time - but the flip side is that he tends to try to abdicate a lot of relationship stuff that should not be my responsibility; just because my job requires me to be tough-nosed while I'm there, he started dating me with the assumption that I'd carry that personality over into home life. Also, his discomfort with my long work hours has been an ongoing issue. I've considered taking a position with fewer hours (and lower salary) just to help my dating life. I've dated so many church guys with deep-seated issues that his are child's play in comparison (and all of those guys blame their incessant, ongoing dating problems on the women, always). Dating in the church is harder than dating outside of it. The guys who say women want "perfection" are not living in reality.

Posted By: Jen | September 26, 2009 8:24 PM

Jen, thank you. I will continue to speak out. The problem is these guys like "farmer" Tom, who can't handle the truth.
Tom, go back and re-read BOTH of my posts! You're insulting to farmers, and your ignorance is showing when you say what I picture about farmers. What didn't you understand when I said I have relatives who farm??? I HAVE seen up close what I described. My relatives own HUGE dairy farms, so don't tell me what I perceive farmers to be, or know "his situation". If this young man is the "saint" you say he is, and making the "6" figure income, he shouldn't be having the problem you say he is having! Period. As for wanting his wife to serve in the church???? Get real! Or is this more "status" mongering??? "See what a saint of a wife I have"? Ask me how I know this. There are other, and more affective ways of helping/mentoring younger women. Ask me how I know this too!!! AND, like I said, is he looking at the chubby, or plain young ladies??? HHHHMMMM???? My guess is not. I stand by what I say..these fat/overweight, unkempt guys DO go after the beauty queen type. Ask me how I know. Your relative sounds like he's demanding perfection in a woman. If he's so perfect, why doesn't he try for sainthood? You didn't answer my question about him helping her out did you? Your reply smacks of the typical double standard dribble. And, quoting you, "What would be wrong with a woman helping her husband with some part of the "family business"? Nothing....IF...he helps her out with the household chores equally, AND chases after the kids. You quote the Titus woman. Why didn't you quote the Proverbs woman also? Typical double standard dribble with this one also! You men love to quote these scriptures, BUT, how many of you look in the mirror to see if you ARE worthy of such a woman????? Not many. READ what the young women are saying.

Posted By: Lynne | September 26, 2009 10:09 PM

Esther, I'm sorry. My first post should have been directed at James...not you. Please forgive me. Your post is dead on accurate

Posted By: Lynne | September 26, 2009 11:02 PM

I hate to state the obvious, but it might seem you are overlooking a crucial factor in the disparity between the number of men and women in church. Young men (and many women) faced with sexual temptation are diving right in. They're leaving the church to shack up during their 20s and 30s because it's a lot easier than waiting. When or if they eventually do marry, they only return to the church when their children are born. I wish I knew a solution.

Posted By: AS | September 27, 2009 12:24 PM

>

One might also say any woman who disparages a man because he is put off by a woman who is working endless hours is not living in reality.

What are your goals in life? Do you really have time for a relationship if you want to be that committed to a career? This is true for both male and female.

Posted By: Great Scott | September 28, 2009 3:21 PM

Some of our best times together was living in that tiny two bedroom apt and bringing home our first child. My wife and I look back at that time with such fondness and growing oppurtunity together. We did not have much money, but it was a great time spiritually. Waiting for the perfect time to marry is not a perfect decision.

Posted By: martin | September 29, 2009 9:20 AM

Hi everyone,
interesting discussion here, no easy subject... I´m from Germany and a member of a Pentacostal church. Here in Germany we have only very few "born again Christians", so it´s not easy to establish a consequent Christian life style, anyway. It´s interesting for me as a German to read the articles here, and I think it´s no surprise to see that problems among Christians aren´t so different to the ones in my country, especially everything about love, relationships, marriage and sexuality ect.

Let me tell you that the problem of finding a Christian husband is the same here! There are so many nice young women in our churches who have a hard time to find a man, let alone a mature one, simply because there aren´t any! These girls are well educated and able to take care of themselves, they´re not looking for Mr. RICH or Mr. PERFECT, just for Mr. RIGHT... a man to love and share your life with and raise a family. That´s what everybody wants, I think.
By the way, only looking for a mate who shares your FAITH isn´t the only thing that´s important! If you don´t have many things in common besides this, you´ll have a hard time getting along with each other, Christian or not!
If you are lucjky to have grown up in church and always attended the groups for young people (if there are any), chances are good to find someone and sooner or later get married and build a life, get mature and stick to each other through thick and thin... If not - good luck! The only single men in our churches here are either kids or weirdos with psychological problems. If a NORMAL (sorry guys, don´t take it personal!) single man accidently finds his way to our church, he´ll probably be captured by a lady before he can count to three... Even the married men in my church aren´t necessarily the ones I would like to have for myself.

I´m 44 and divorced, and believe me I have been through rough things. And I don´t intend to spent the rest of my life alone, but if I would rely on finding Mr. Right in MY church, I could wait until the cows come home!
It´s easy for the church leaders to demand sexual purity (pastors are ALL married, of course and they don´t have these problems!) if you don´t even have the chance to find ANYONE to do forbidden things with.... And I have seen young couples getting married mainly because they didn´t know how to abstain from sex, and if you don´t take the time to get to know each other, the pressure of parents and church... all this can also lead to heartbreak.
Meanwhile we have enough divorces also between Christians, too, which is still ignored by church leaders here... There is not much help or couseling. But if you are in the process of getting divorced, suddenly you experience pressure and inteference. I think Americans are a few steps foward in comparison to us.
Please excuse my mistakes, English isn´t my mother tongue, hope I didn´t write too much nonsense... :-))

Posted By: Susanne | September 29, 2009 10:23 AM

Given all the man-bashing I see here, it's no miracle that men are leaving the church in droves. Most men are no masochists and are not interested in those so-called "Christian" women thinking that all men are wimps and can be blamed for all women's woes.

A little bit more reflection and self-criticism wouldn't hurt, ladies. You're not one bit better than these men you love to criticize and judge. Not one bit.

Fortunately I also read some more mature female responses here, but for the ones I described above: If the shoe fits, wear it.

Posted By: Ruud | September 29, 2009 10:56 AM

Ruud...take your own advice about the shoe. Can't handle the truth can you? Go back and re-read my posts..I have BOTH sexes of children. I love it when people post without having thoroughly read all the postings. Some "mature" women's posts? Why because you think they coddle your ego more? Truth always hurts.

Posted By: Lynne | September 29, 2009 11:36 AM

Lynne, what might be true for some men around you (fat, overweight, wimps, etc) is not necessarily true for all men. I did read your post. Apparently you felt that the shoe fits you. That says more about you than about me. You don't have to flatter me, but I don't have to accept insults ("all men are..., BTW your own son - who is a man, I hope - is apparently also fat, overweight and a wimp???) Such insults are just lies because of their general stereotyping nature where all men are painted with the same brush. Indeed, truth always hurts. Lies like those statements do too. Women don't have a patent on having feelings.

Posted By: Ruud | September 29, 2009 12:11 PM

Ruud....uuuummmm, no...the shoe doesn't fit me. Actually, reading your post, "the shoe" fits you, and says more about you than it does me. You lie, because you twisted what I said. I didn't say ALL men, YOU did! You obviously didn't read ALL of my posts carefully, nor listen to what the young ladies are saying on here. I spoke truth in ALL of my posts, and if you can't handle what is being said by me, and the young ladies on here, don't read it. Go somewhere else. What a laugh what you are "guessing" about my son, since you don't know him, don't judge what you know not! He could be a model, and as I stated in my EARLIER post (IF you had read it carefully), he is having the same problem as alot of the girls are. But, what I'm addressing is much, much more prevalent for girls than boys. He has been called gay, because he won't date girls of questionable reputations. Double standards are still alive and well in the christian community. And it shouldn't be this way! This is the truth. How much mentoring are you doing in helping young men see that plain or plump or "dog" girls, are worthy to be wives and mothers???? They don't want these kinds of girls, they want the beauty queen! They also want perfection...read farmer tom's post aobut his relative. I hear them talking! It is a proven fact, that ALOT, NOT ALL, men look in the mirror, and have this distorted view of what they really look like. Poll after poll shows this. Who has the most problems with porn, lust, cheating, sex outside of marriage????? HE has complained to me and to my husband about the lack of young men to hang with, and get encouragement from, and mentor in return. Why don't you try to be part of the solution???? MENTOR these young guys!

Posted By: Lynne | September 29, 2009 1:39 PM

Lynn, I quote from your very own post: "Young men today are wimps." Apparently I should not interpret this that according to your view all (young) men are wimps, just because you didn't write the word "all"?

I am not guessing about your son, I just interpret your very own words against your very own son, since he is a young man and therefore, again according to your (not mine) very own words, a wimp. And so am I, apparently, since I'm a guy as well. And you accuse me of judging someone I don't know??? Get that log out of your own eyes first, please, before you say something about me having bad sight.

It's in general not very helpful to throw mud at the other gender and call them names. It's certainly not Biblical or Christian to do so. Christian men - with flaws and all - are your brothers in Christ and it's not up to you to judge Someone Else's servant, as you are doing in your posts.

Women are not less sinful than men, despite all the statistics you quote. If they were, God would have said so in His Word. However, He says that no-one is good, not even one. Also women can (and do!) be porn-addicts, superficial, lust, cheat, sleep around, gossip, etc. So I think it's also you who should start to be part of the solution and try to be more encouraging and build up instead of tear down and throw mud. Men don't like to be insulted any more than women and neither do they have to.

Posted By: Ruud | September 29, 2009 3:18 PM

I agree; nothing will be resolved as long as our solution to the problems single have in the church is: "Oh, it's because the other gender is too immature/feministic! I, on the other hand, am a great catch anybody would be lucky to marry!" It sucks to be single–I know because I'm probably going to die a virgin who's never been kissed, and yes, I am a little bitter about it–but I see all this scapegoating as ultimately unproductive. Men are not going to become more spiritually mature by telling them they aren't and women are not going to stop demanding perfection from their potential suitors no matter how often you tell them to lower their expectations. It'd be better to look at ourselves in the mirror and figure out how we contribute to our own singleness. You might not believe you are in any way responsible for your own singleness–many people, including the man who killed a few women at a gym a few months ago, would deny they have any control over their relationships too–but that denial will not help you in finding somebody who could really love you.

"How much mentoring are you doing in helping young men see that plain or plump or "dog" girls, are worthy to be wives and mothers???? They don't want these kinds of girls, they want the beauty queen!"

Is it wrong for a man or a woman to have high standards when it comes to appearance? It definitely shouldn't be the deciding factor and one should never judge a person's worth by their appearance, but should a woman be obligated to find a short man attractive when she has always wanted to marry a man who is taller than her; should a man be expected to marry somebody they do not find physically attractive?

Posted By: Merciel | September 29, 2009 5:59 PM

Lynne: You wrote, "I stand by what I say..these fat/overweight, unkempt guys DO go after the beauty queen type." I agree 100% with your observation. And guess what - the beauty queen types do marry these fat/overweight, unkempt guys. I've seen it time and time again. I ask myself the question, "What did she see in him?" I don't know.

Posted By: Ken | September 29, 2009 7:06 PM

I have read the posts on here. So here it is from a 24 yr. old single christian guy. First off, Ken, I agree with you. I am tall, very good-looking so I have been told. I want to address the issue as to why all the good-looking people have to just settle. I'm tired of having this thrown in my face all the time. What is so wrong with good-looking people wanting a good-looking person back? I take the time to keep my weight in check, and keep myself neat and clean when I'm not working. I'm also a virgin. Ruud, most of the young christian young men today are more feminine acting. I have observed this because I do have a few christian male friends. I attend church weekly and there aren't hardly any young men my age there. They're all 15 and younger, or 50 and older, and I go to a huge church of 2,700 people. The teaching today is that if you want to be a "good" christian man, you have to act sort of feminine and let the girl lead. And the bible clearly states the guy is to lead the household, and is very clear in putting his family first. And Ruud, how is a WOMAN supposed to mentor a MAN on how to be a man??????? A mother can mentor her son only so far. I don't think you read Lynne's posts very carefully. What she is saying is true, unfortunately, and it makes it harder for guys like me who are trying to stay pure. It is hard to find mature men to mentor us in a Godly way. You are putting words between the lines. Why is it these unkempt men are always expecting the beauty queens??????? I have 2 very good-looking sisters, and have seen these horse type guys eyeing them. It's also true that pastor's are telling us to wait until later to get married. What is wrong with wanting to marry in your early 20's? They tell us to focus on our careers first. It's all about money. Just because you get sexual urges, doesn't mean you should marry for that reason. The problem is these guys today are lacking self-control. I know the temptations that are out there influencing guys everyday, and it is hard to resist, but, Jesus does tell us to bring every thought and action to Him. Why do sleazy people expect to have pure people when they decide to marry? And farmer Tom, I live 15 miles from the city, so your relative has no excuse. You never answered Lynne's question about helping his wife in return, if she is helping him. It sounds like he wants a slave instead of a spouse. It sounds like he is looking for perfection, and, is he willing to try to be perfect for her?
I'm trying to state what I have observed in the christian community myself and it's not looking good for families.

Posted By: scott | September 29, 2009 9:37 PM

Is shallowness a Christ-like characteristic? I'm not talking about how men and women find certain traits desirable and others undesirable; I'm talking about this belittling of people based on their appearance. Perhaps these fat, overweight, unkempt men have wives while the self-proclaimed super studs don't because they might have better attitudes or maybe the women find something worth loving in them. It's not a sin not to find certain people attractive, but it's definitely not showing Christ's love to treat "uglies" so disrespectfully. As you might have heard it said in movies, "Beauty isn't skin deep."

There is nothing wrong with "untouchables" of any gender desiring beautiful/handsome mates. It is no injustice when they do marry an attractive person. To look at them and ask, "Why?" is an insult to the man and the woman and exposes you for how vain you really are.

Posted By: Merciel | September 29, 2009 11:19 PM

Ken,I know a couple of reasons why the beauty queen is sometimes seen with the fat/overweight guy,(I have asked a few of them why). Very "unscientific" of course. Here are their answers in order of the reason stated most:
1. He wasn't this heavy when I married him. Hhhhhhmmmmm. Let himself go maybe?
2. He had the courage to ask me out, so I just settled.
Merceil, Are you a man or woman? I don't think it's wrong for a man or woman to have high standards for appearance. Just because someone is plain/plump doesn't mean they are unkempt. I used ALL 3 words together. I'm DEFENDING the plain, plump girls and real godly young men! I'm tired of people reading into my posts more than is there. Anyone you know on here?
Rud, I'm really tired of you lieing about me, and twisting what I say! MY gosh!! Don't you comprehend what you read??? "You're guessing"...that's right, you ARE just "guessing". A better term would be assuming. People who assume as usually wrong. Take the redwood out of your own eyes. I'm NOT mud slinging! The facts are just that...facts! I'm a people watcher, and a LISTENER. My observations, as well as LISTENING and reading, bear out what I see and hear. Maybe you should learn these traits. Like I said before, ask the young ladies on here yourself. Me-thinks you're too afraid of the answers you'll receive. You're in denial, and part of the problem. Why aren't you mentoring these guys??? On second thought, maybe it's best if you don't. As for judging, I'm not wrong to judge others behaviors. That is biblical. If it wasn't we'd have utter chaos, like we do now. And calling me unchristian for "name calling", then I guess Jesus is unchrisitan also, when He used "name calling": "snakes, vipers, liars, cheats, whores", etc. He was judjing BEHAVIOR. He also said those kind of people will NOT inherit the kingdom of God, which means they are not christian. He's very plain about that. It's not my fault that sexual sins are more prevalent among men. Or did you forget HE used those words to describe certain people for their behavior? And when a double standard is going on in the church, THAT is neither christian nor biblical! And as for men leaving the church enmasse, because "they aren't masochists", this has been going on long before this article appeared. It's been in crisis mode for years, and pastor's are just now addressing it.

Posted By: Lynne | September 29, 2009 11:57 PM

Marciel, Ken and Scott are not saying it's a sin for heavy people to marry good looking people. Most people who want the "lookers" do it for status! "Look what I got". They both could be very good looking for all you know, which makes it a fact, not vain talk. And for them to want attractive girls is their choice also. They don't have to be obligated to date the "uglies", your word, NOT, mine! as you say to prove they're not shallow. You also have an attitude! YOU'RE the one bitter about still being a virgin. Or, is it possible, that maybe your bitter because you haven't had the "lookers" pay attention to you? YOU stated, and I quote, "but should a woman be obligated to find a short man attractive when she has always wanted to marry a man taller than her, should a man be expected to marry somebody they do not find physically attractive"? You're shallow yourself! And you're contradicting yourself. And a "super stud" is someone who PLAYS around! Do you really know what unkempt/fat/overweight means? means? These all have different meanings. Look them up.
And not all heavy/overweight people are "ugly" to use your term. Alot of the men/women have very pretty/handsome faces. Being pretty/handsome has it's drawbacks too. Most people think good looking people are conceited. Some are, most aren't, and they don't have to date the "uglies" your word marciel, to prove it.

Posted By: Lynne | September 30, 2009 1:11 AM

I´m sorry to see that people start offending each other here! Please, you shouldn´t do that! And it´s ridicoulos because you don´t even know each other personally. I don´t think the problem gets solved by blaming one gender or the other...

I didn´t want to add fuel to the fire by saying the very few single men in my church are "weirdos with psychological problems". I really want to apalogize for that. Of course in churches you always find people with mental problems or people who aren´t as accepted by society as the beautiful and successful ones. If the love of Jesus is there, they feel accepted just the way they are, so they are attracted by this church, of course.

As I mentioned, in my church there simply are much more women or young girls than single men, it´s just a fact! My daughter is 15 and also attends our church, she´s active in the scouts group and the youth group. Thank God we have a few nice boys there, too! But there are much more girls than boys, and recently they have made contact with youth groups from other churches. My daughter and her female friends said: thanks to God they have more boys than girls there!! So you see, even in that young age we have these problems. And of course, I wish for my little girl to find a mate who shares her belief, too.

And of course, in my church we also have these unkempt/overweight/scruffy people of both genders and all ages who don´t take care of themselves (or their teeth, for example!). However, they also have these high and idealistic expectations how their future spouse should be, although they wouldn´t meet someone elses expectations, neither! They are sitting around passively, don´t take any effort to get to know new people but expect God to serve their Mr. or Mrs. Perfect on a silver plate... and if this doesn´t happen, it´s "God´s will"!

So, if a person doesn´t want to stay alone, sooner or later they will probably fall in love someone who s´ not a Christian, and you can´t blame them. From my experience, it´s not enough just to find someone who is a Christian, and then "everything is alright and they will live happily ever after"...
Dear Cat, dear Mercial, I really feel with you, girls! I felt the same way, I have been through so much heartache and loneliness during and after my marriage... and it´s even more difficult if you´re looking for a mate to build a family with. In fact, recently and unexpectedly, I found a new love. A man who is simply wonderful, loving and caring and who shares my interests and values, who loves me like I am. But I didn´t meet him in my church, I found him by an internet single page....
Good luck to you and God bless you all!

Posted By: Susanne | September 30, 2009 4:52 AM

Thank you Susanne! Very good article that can state facts without stereotyping, name calling, etc, etc. Refreshing to read!

Posted By: Ruud | September 30, 2009 10:17 AM

Did you consider that maybe 20 year old women should be marrying mature 30 year old men? Why the assumption that women in their early 20s must only consider marrying men their age?

Posted By: Anonymous | September 30, 2009 7:58 PM

I've been admonished for failing to respond directly to Lynne's question,

And farmer Tom, I live 15 miles from the city, so your relative has no excuse. You never answered Lynne's question about helping his wife in return, if she is helping him. It sounds like he wants a slave instead of a spouse. It sounds like he is looking for perfection, and, is he willing to try to be perfect for her?

Some how I have failed to communicate the total frustration this young man is facing. He does not live 15 miles from the city. It if at least 30 miles to a town with a population over 500. The closest city is at least a two hour drive. The Christian women are leaving for college and never returning to the middle of nowhere. They desire the convenience and entertainment of city life. He has not had a date in over two years. I personally set him up with an eligible young lady, only to have her refuse to start going out with him because, and I quote, "I don't want to live in the middle of nowhere, I want to live where
there are things to do, places to go." She refused to even date him, because she did not want to live in small town rural Iowa. Some of the on-line dating outfits he has tried have had the women he showed an interest in ask him if he would consider moving for their career. This guy farms for a living. A good living, but their career is more important to them than finding a Godly husband.

You assume he is looking for perfection and you make an ass of yourself. He is looking for a woman who loves Jesus Christ, wants to serve Jesus Christ and will move to a farm in rural Iowa. So far the only women he has had show an interest are non-Christians who know he makes a very good living and "Christians" who what him to abandon his career so they can pursue their career. As he put it, I'd settle for about anything that appears to be female, loves Jesus Christ, and wants to be a farmer's wife, but, so far, all I can find is the appears to be female part.

As to Lynne's question, I can't speak for my friend, but I know he is currently doing all his own house work, cooking his own meals and doing his own laundry, so maybe just maybe he would continue to help do those things. Of course, if he finds a wife who is not obsessed with having a career, and actually attempts to be a Titus 2 kind of wife, she would be taking care of her husbands needs, instead of worrying about pleasing the boss and her customers.

And Lynne, you mentioned the Proverbs 31 woman, funny thing how every time a "christian feminist" is confronted with the Titus 2 passage, they immediately run to the Proverbs 31 passage as some kind of anti-dote. Of course your reading comprehension is on par with your logical ability, since you fail to observe several facts about the Proverbs 31 woman.

verses 10 to 12
She is a married woman who's purpose and goal is to honor and bless her husband,

single unmarried women think only of themselves and their wants and desires, therefore they can not be "The Noble Wife"

verses 13,14,15,17 and 19, she does all of the domestic duties of a housewife, making cloth, making that cloth into clothes, going after groceries, preparing the food, she does the menial physical labor, (her arms are strong) you know, like washing floors and windows, doing laundry,

Is this list of household chores the ones you were complaining that men won't do? Maybe the reason the Proverbs 31 woman is so special is because she does these things and doesn't expect her husband (who is a leader in his community) to help.

21, 22, and 24 seem to suggest a home based business involving making and selling clothes, bedding etc.

Not exactly a career as a trial lawyer or a office manager

verse 27 sounds distinctly like something else I've read before, oh what is it,

Provers 31:27 "She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness,

Titus 2:2 "to be self-controlled......, to be busy at home,"

Remember that we already know that she is a married woman, but her children rise up and call her blessed,

to many Christian single women today want men to raise up all can them blessed, while at the same time those women fail to put marriage and children ahead of education and career,

In case you still aren't getting the point, the Proverbs 31 woman is a wife and mother first and foremost, all of the other things are secondary sidelines which arise out of her hard work and diligence as a housewife.

When Christian young ladies began to seek marriage with the goal of honoring and blessing their husband, having children who call her blessed, and then doing their "career" there will suddenly be a lot more men interested in them as marriage partners, until then, they will have to settle for education, career, a few disappointing relationships with men who are using them, and they can always get several cats.

Posted By: farmer Tom | September 30, 2009 10:16 PM

Susanne, thank you for backing up what I've been saying. Some people just can't grasp what I'm saying as truth without whining, sniveling, and twisting what I say. Tom, you're the ass, and still missing the point. You assume, and like the other person on here, when you assume, most of the time you are wrong! Go back and read my very first post, and you'll see that I'm anything but a feminist! You're the one who can't read and comprehend! I'll match my logic up against yours any time any day. Truth is truth, and when it slaps you in the face, and you can't handle it like someone else on here, leave. I'm TIRED, TIRED, TIRED of the double standards! You want to quote vs. 13- 19... She had SERVANTS to help her, which, in case you haven't noticed, us schmucks in this day and age don't have!!! Which begs the question then, IS SHE really the one raising the kids, OR the servants??? AND, guess what, my children DO call me blessed. They do adore me and will do anything for me! You have NO idea what kind of HELL I've had in my life to stay home and raise them! Ans YOU still don't get this point, address the issue of IS HE WORTHY OF THE TITUS WOMAN???? You're the one making him sound like the catch of century. You're the one who said he wants a woman who serves in the church. That's just status mongering! Like I said before there are better and more affective ways women can help other women. You love to quote the Titus woman....but...are YOU/HE worthy of that kind of woman?? Maybe in your opinion. So he does all his own household chores for now...that doesn't mean if he were to marry he'd still help out in return. You hinted that part of the reason he wants a wife is for someone else to take over the household chores. He sounds just like the user you accuse the young ladies of. Alot of men nine times out of ten USE women, NOT the other way around! It's precisely because alot of men disrespect and have double standards towards women that we have the feminist movement today! When men start really dealing with these issues, then, you will see the kind of women that you scream you want! If you're not that kind of man, then mentor those men around you who are. And, yes, I AM blaming men, because God made them to be the spiritual head of the family. But, they pull the same crap as their very first father...Adam. Let the woman take the fall and let's see what happens. Read Pastor Jack Hayford's books on men and women's roles in life. Read Voddie Baucham. These 2 tell it like it is. So does Joshua Harris. AND his "farm" as you call it is hardly a farm! It's a BUSINESS!!!! Maybe you'd better look at the abuse ALOT of these animals go through in the name of the almighty dollar that guys like your relative make off of those same animals! Unless he's growing soybeans or grains of some sort. In which case, they are short of nutitional value because of the constant raping of the land. Hardly farming the way God intended it to be. You make it sound like it's an honor to any young lady to have your relative as a husband. That's YOUR opinion, and because some of these young ladies don't want that kind of life isn't for you to judge. As for the "christian" dating sites, my daughter had the same problem, so don't just say it was the women on there. And cats are great companions. I have 6!

Posted By: Lynne | October 1, 2009 9:01 AM

What I read here is a lot of "ME, ME, ME" and very little "You, You, You." I am a woman who has been married almost 35 years. Before we married, my father did a very wise thing. He asked us to memorize 1 Corinthians chapter 13 and be able to quote it to each other. We Chose to tackle memorizing it. Right before my husband asked me to marry him, he went to my dad of his own accord and recited the chapter to him (just to prove to my dad he had it memorized!)

Read 1 Cor 13 and then ask yourself if you are willing to put this kind of love into your marriage. If no, then you are truly better off remaining single. I can promise you that marriage is all about "you, you, you" and a selfless love is a secure one.

Ladies, your focus should not be on whether the man is willing to give up anything. Your focus should be on what you are willing to give. Men, your focus should not be on how godly and perfect she is, it should be on how godly you are for His glory and for her benefit. (That is selfless not selfish)

When one is single, it is easy to be self-focused. The older you get the more self-focused you become if you do not make a concerted effort to change that focus. I have often read Camerin C. on TCW...a single woman who began to change that focus by thinking outwardly. Mission trips, nieces and nephews, people in need. How I admire that!

If you aren't married and God hasn't changed that, then rather than think solely about yourself and your lack of mature godly guys, being to think outwardly on what you can do to further God's kingdom. Memorize 1 Cor 13!

Guys, if you haven't found the godly woman you seek, do memorize 1 Cor 13, pray for the woman who is out there that may one day be your mate, consider your habits, your self-focused pursuits, look outwardly for opportunities to further God's kingdom. Ask God to work in you to ready you to be the godly man for that godly woman you seek.

Lord, help us all to have a 1 Corinthians kind of love.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Cor 13:4-7

Posted By: Selah | October 1, 2009 12:18 PM

"What does she see in him?" When I was young I lived in a large city and I turned a lot of heads, from waiters and customers in restaurants to Academy Award-winning actors and Grammy-winning recording artists. I can tell you from experience that most of the men who have the chutzpah to approach an outstanding-looking woman have an inflated view of themselves. I chose my husband when I was in college, but even though we had mutual friends, we did not go out. I waited until I moved across the ocean and then wrote to him. Our relationship progressed through the mail. He was average-looking, not a head-turner, but he was intelligent, funny, creative and a Christian. When people who knew him at work met me for the first time, they would say rude things like, "I didn't thing 'John' would be married to someone like you." Or "You're not at all what I was picturing as 'John's' wife." I never quite knew how to respond.

"What does she see in him?"--a great guy! If I had "settled" for one of the good-looking Hall of Famers who stalked me when I was in my teens and twenties, I would have been miserable.

Posted By: laney | October 1, 2009 12:27 PM

Ruth Moon should have done her homework

"It’s interesting, though, that two prominent men — Gerson here, and Regnerus in CT — have taken up the gauntlet for early marriage, while no women that I’m aware of have. If early marriage provides the social and religious benefits Gerson and Regnerus say it does — including providing the best context for childrearing, relational stability, and sexual fulfillment — why aren’t women lauding it too?"

Hello? Candice Watters, anyone? She's the biggest proponent of early Christian marriage out there -- and she's the founding editor of Boundless.com, a webzine of Focus on the Family, for young adults that encourages marriage.

"Statistical reliability aside, Gerson’s argument — marry young, because people cannot handle not waiting to have sex until their late 20s — is weak on many levels. Is marriage really an excuse for sex? Should a lack of self-control be rewarded with early gratification?"

Marry primarily for sex? According to Paul, yes. 1 Cor 7:2-3, 8-9. 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband... 8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

The only biblical requirements for marriage are that you are "of age" and "of God". All the pre-marital prerequisites listed off by popular Christian writers are merely modern, extra-biblical chaffe.

Speaking of Boundless.com, they have an article called "Marry for Sex?", a must-read.

Posted By: JAM | October 1, 2009 3:43 PM

The issue of protracted singleness is a lot more complex than portrayed by the blame-the-men crowd. Plenty of different factors play into this issue, and other commenters have touched on some of them.

I'm a never-married man in midlife whose pursuits of the opposite sex have all been shot down, some of them for the most superficial of reasons. However, it's useless for me to blame the entire female gender for the actions of some of its individual members. I wish the blame-the-men crowd would likewise acknowledge the futility of their tactics.

Rather than engaging in the blame game, the evangelical church should sit down and address the different factors leading to the increase in protracted and unwanted singleness among both men and women. Perhaps a dramatic change in worldview is necessary, especially with regard to education, lifestyle, and legalism.

Posted By: ccinnova | October 2, 2009 12:46 AM

When I was 16, I wanted to get married and have a family. I had my fair share of dating jerks ("Christian" guys included), and I broke up with all of them because they were immature. They just wanted a girl to fool around with and no desire in any shape or form to get married and have a family.

I met my future husband when I was 19. How old was he? 25. I knew that he was the right person for me. He didn't look like a superstar and he wasn't popular. But you know what? He loved the Lord, he wanted a family, and he was mature enough to handle that kind of responsibility. In addition to those reasons, I married him knowing that guys my age (21, at the time) didn't want that responsiblity. Most men don't really start maturing until their mid-20's, if that.

The problem with Christian men is that they lead a double standard: they want to marry the right person, but only if that right person looks a certain way. This puts Christian women at a disadvantage, because she comes to believe that the reason why she's still single is because she's not attractive. It's clearly wrong.

For the Christian women still single I have this to say: any guy, Christian included, who judges you solely based on the way you look is not a guy worth having. The right guy will believe that you are the most beautiful woman in the world, no matter how you look. He should fall more in love with you because of your heart, because of who you are. Also, if he's not ready to accept the responsibility for a wife and family, he's not worth having either.

For all the Christian men still looking I have this to say as well: it's not wrong to desire to marry someone attractive, but that shouldn't be the reason why you want to marry someone. You are doing a lot of women a major disservice if you only look for women who fit your standard of beauty. Instead, you should be open to WHOEVER God has in store for you. If not, then you will miss your blessing and spend the rest of your life alone.

Posted By: Love | October 2, 2009 3:01 PM

This has been quite an interesting conversation.

I wanted to add that while family life and marriage are very important things, they are not the reason why we're here on this earth. According to the Bible, what it means to follow Christ is to abide in Him. Or true religion centers on taking care of orphans and widows, and not getting adulterated by the world.

I point this out to both men and women who are lonely and frustrated. The loneliness you may feel should push you closer to Christ. In Him we have our needs met.

I'm a mid twenties young woman, and I'm learning that my life doesn't belong to me- it belongs to Christ. When I gave my life over to Him, that meant giving over my desires too. I have a varied list of desires, family is definitely included in that. But what I am slowly learning is that Christ should be the center of your life. He is the reason that I even have life.

The thing about contemporary, Evangelical, Westernized Christianity is that it tends to focus on our needs all the time. Nothing is wrong with marriage, kids, family. That is all wonderful. But maybe we should spend more time with Christ and asking the Holy Spirit to guide us in our own personal lives. We are to be salt and light in a very dark world. And more importantly we should set our minds on the matters above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of Elohim. That may mean, you might not get married on your time table. It may also mean that you may not get married at all. Or it could mean that you'll get married like 95% of the human population and will be able to bring forth godly offspring.

In all that we do and desire, we need to remember Christ and his redemption plan. We need to also remember that this world is passing away and nothing will remain except the souls of those that have walked with Christ. I think if we focused more on Him and His Body, we would not constantly dwell on our own individual lives that do not belong to us anyway.

Posted By: Aya | October 2, 2009 5:16 PM

It's quite amazing how many Christian women like "Love" are so arrogant in thinking that only men are to be blamed for relationship problems and women are always faultless on this and are actually the "sinless" gender. It's a bit annoying sometimes because it's such a big lie and so popular in the church these days. Again, it's no miracle that many (single) men walk out of church, tired of the man-hate-inspired lies ("If you're still single, it must be your fault, apparently you're still immature") and the mud-throwing.

Posted By: Ruud | October 3, 2009 6:00 AM

Rudd is correct! The man-hate-inspired lies go way beyond "it must be your fault, apparently you are still immature" and include, "what's his problem - is he gay? Single men don't walk out of church, they are forced out. They are not wanted in church.

Posted By: Larry | October 3, 2009 11:04 AM

This whole situation is actually several come together to create a perfect storm. Based on my experience, mature Christian men aren't in church because singles groups are run like youth groups (singles are not big youths), many aspects of evangelical Christianity are just plain hokey and won't attract people with sophistication, conservative Christianity does encourage women to be immature (a big, strong man will come along and "lead" you - I'm a woman, by the way) while it lets men be immature by feeding their insecurities (you have insecurities? Well, the Bible says - wrongly - that you're supposed to be the boss. The woman needs to submit to you. It's all the woman's fault.).

Both men and women need to grow up - and not fall for the early marriage nonsense. Get out in the real world and develop interests away from the church; being in the world is not the same are being of it. Oh, and get off yourself (we all need to take that one to heart). Focus on others, don't blame them for your insecurities, and just be kind. Above all, focus on God.

Posted By: K. | October 8, 2009 11:51 PM

On the difficulty of dating women who are "pursuing a career," I have a question: do most young men bother asking these women whether they're purusing a career because it's more *important* to them than marriage, or because they have to do something, and it beats waiting tables? FOr instance, I'm 22 and after teaching 2 years I'm currently working on a masters degree. It would be easy enough for someone to assume that I would want to develope a career before getting married. He would, however, be assuming wrong, because when actually asked what I'd like to do with myself, it's "get married, have children, homeschool them if possible, have a garden, a dairy goat, and do whatever kind of work allows for that - however, while that would be ideal it is also highly negotiable. But young men don't generally bother asking.

Posted By: Irene | October 9, 2009 4:35 PM

Great post by Love and sadly in my experience all too true about the looks thing. A lot of men do seem to think they are entitled to a "hot" woman all the while they are anything but a hot man. It is the heart that is important above all else and if Christians cannot realise this then it really is a sad state of affairs. I am now looking at meeting non-Christians as they do seem to be more accepting as a whole as opposed to "Christian" men who do seem to judge more based on looks (in my experience). I feel sorry for those that only want a good looking spouse as they will almost certainly miss out on the best person for them and could possibly end up totally alone.

Posted By: Cat | October 10, 2009 5:30 PM

Cat, I do not think you have any right to talk like that about Christian men, if you are apparently not even willing yourself to live according to God's Word. Are you sure it's just your looks that make them disinterested or is it maybe something else?

If living according to God's Word means for you that you will stay single until you die or the Lord returns, then so be it. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the Name of the LORD be praised, as the Bible says in Job 1:21.

I'm 41, never-married single and don't have a "checkered past" (I'm not even overweight!), so I think I know a little bit what I'm talking about.

Posted By: Ruud | October 11, 2009 6:00 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with what I have said Ruud, it is generally what I have experienced. I am also 41, never married and certainly don't believe its God's will for anybody to be alone unless they want to be (also a lot of Christians have told me the same thing). I believe it says in the Bible it is not good for man to be alone? I believe that "man" also includes "woman" in this instance or else we're all clobbered!! I don't know what you mean about checkered past but I most definately havent messed about in any way but can see how this might also put some men off, it seems being a woman you just can't win.

Posted By: Cat | October 11, 2009 4:46 PM

Cat, we live in a broken world where people suffer. Nowhere in the Bible you will find that God will give a spouse to everyone who wants to. Quite some people will indeed end this life without knowing what it is to be married, to be intimate, etc. God gives a spouse to the people who really need them, which is not necessarily the people who really want them. In the afterlife things will be better. Now we're stuck with life here. Therefore it's essential that you find a spouse with the same spiritual values as you have, one of them believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah. If the two of you can't agree on that, you will be missing something very important. Besides that, you should not think that all men are like the ones you met, so you might rob a nice Christian man from a Christian women, in this case you. So indeed, find a Christian guy or stay single. Trying to engage with a nonbeliever, how nice he may be, will give lots of sorrow, because there will always be a wall between the two of you. The essential question is: are you willing to trust your Creator in knowing what He is doing?

Posted By: Ruud | October 12, 2009 12:17 PM

Ruud wrote, "Nowhere in the Bible you will find that God will give a spouse to everyone who wants to.... God gives a spouse to the people who really need them, which is not necessarily the people who really want them."

To be quite honest, I don't see *that* in Scripture, either.

Posted By: Anne | October 14, 2009 12:55 PM

Maybe not literally, but that doesn't take away the fact that many people, including many Christians, marry either very late or not at all. Since God knows what He is doing, He will give a spouse if He feels it necessary, not if we feel it necessary. His ways are not our ways and His ways are higher than ours. You can see that statement in the Bible in Isaiah 55:8-9.

Posted By: Ruud | October 14, 2009 3:39 PM

Maybe God is happy that I'm feeling very lonely and sometimes suicidal? It would be nice to have even a boyfriend, or is that forbidden as well? Friends would be nice too but I can't find any of those either, I must be very wicked...

Posted By: Cat | October 14, 2009 9:34 PM

Cat,
I do understand your loneliness and frustration. There are ALOT of women your age, and younger, and older, feeling the same way as you. I think the bigger question for you to figure out at this point is why you don't have any friends. Right now you need those more than a boyfriend. Ruud could be right that you are doing something, or acting a certain way that is off putting to people, including a potential boyfriend. As for you saying you that you don't have a "checkered past", but that you can see why it might be a problem for some man....NO man has the right to want a virgin if he isn't one himself...period! As for the rest of what Ruud says, please, don't listen to him. Ruud, you protest too much, and are way too defensive about being single. Ruud, you are single by CHOICE! YOU have the CHOICE of asking ladies out. Women aren't really given that choice. They are called "too forward" or "aggressive" and other less savory names if they do. Oh yes, and accused of "taking the lead!" For you to tell cat and the other older single ladies "that God wants them single is a lie." It's easy to read your own interpretation into scripture to suit your own purposes. YOU aren't God, so you don't know what He wants. God made it very clear that "it's not good for man to be alone." Too many men are out there sitting on the fence waiting for God to drop "ms perfect" into their laps. "Ain't" gonna happen! God tells men to FIND a wife! God is pretty clear in telling men to LOOK for one, He's not gonna drop her in your lap. We could also add the problem of alot of men being gay, and aborted male babies into the equation also, but, we won't go there.

Posted By: Lynne | October 15, 2009 12:50 AM

Cat, God is not any more happy than you with your being so lonely and sometimes suicidal. I think it's best to try to find some professional help first. At this stage, you are expecting too much from a boyfriend. What you need can better be given by someone who is experienced in giving professional counseling. Your life should also be valuable without having a boyfriend. First get some professional help and later, some female friends to get your life back together. Romantic relationships can come later.

Lynne, you really should learn to read properly instead of putting things to me that I didn't say. I didn't tell Cat that her behaviour is off putting people. Neither did I tell her that God wants her to stay single. I mentioned it as a possibility and it really is. God's ways are not more known to you than to her or to me.

Furthermore I am not any more single by choice than either Cat or you. We just refuse to jump on anyone who happens to be Christian, single and female. Male rabbits just jump on anything that happens to be a female rabbit. We are no rabbits. If you want us to pursue you, you will have to convince us why we should pursue you and spend our money and time on you. Like it or not: your being female, Christian and single is not enough. You will have to be attractive to us for any reason. That is not the same as being beautiful because everyone has his own definition of beautiful. I often find Ms. Universe not attractive at all, for example, even though many people think she's beautiful, otherwise she wouldn't be Ms. Universe. On the other hand, We might find a certain woman very attractive, even though no Ms. Universe panel member would give her a 2nd thought.

The Bible doesn't tell men to search for women. On the contrary, 1 Corinthians 7:27: "Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." Clear enough, right?

Proverbs 18:22 states: "He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the LORD." If I'm walking down the street, I might find a 100-dollar note. That doesn't mean that I was actually searching for such notes and neither does it mean that I would only have found that note if I had actually been searching for it. I just found it without searching for it and that's what this verse means.

Posted By: Ruud | October 15, 2009 3:59 PM

Ruud, YOU need to learn to read better. I'm quoting you now..."Are you sure it's just your looks that make them disinterested or IS IT MAYBE SOMETHING ELSE"? Well, gee, if it's not her looks, it must be something about her other attributes, like her personality, or the way she's is acting around people. DUH!!! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that's what you meant! Furthermore, why do you keep replying on a WOMEN'S blog????? I showed MY HUSBAND all of your replies on here. HE said your attitude stinks, you are taking scripture out of context, and twisting them to suit yourself, among other things. He said you aren't husband material. We've been married for almost 31 yrs., so I kinda think he knows where of he speaks. And, before you say he better learn to read better too, remember, this is an OLDER MAN, ie. wiser than you, reading your posts. You quote I Cor. 7:27. The whole verse is as follows: "Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." Paul thought Jesus was coming back instantly, and he was concerned that men wouldn't be devoting themselves to the work of Jesus. Go back and read the very beginning of I Corithians...."Now for the matters that you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to marry, but, since there is SO MUCH IMMORALITY, each man should have his own wife, and each woman, her own husband". My husband is right, you do quote out of context and twist scripture. And, quoting you again, "....you will have to convince us why we should persue you AND SPEND OUR MONEY AND TIME ON YOU." I think most women are picking up on YOUR attitude, and think YOU aren't worth their time and effort. Ladies, RUN from guys like Ruud. They are not worth the headaches. GOD DOES say for a man to FIND a wife. He is quite vocal about this throughout the whole bible. Re-read the Prov. 18:22 that you quoted: He who FINDS a wife...meaning he who went LOOKING for one...she wasn't dropped into his lap. You need a better grasp of the English language. That is just as plain as you trying to defend your position on being single. Yes, some people have made finding a mate an idol, both men and women, BUT, our culture and churches have also made being single the newest idol, which is not a Godly teaching. God established the FAMILY BEFORE anything else on earth!

Posted By: Lynne | October 15, 2009 10:43 PM

Lynne, I asked Cat a question. That's not the same as an acccusation or a reproach.

Since when can't a man reply on a women's blog, especially where so much nonsense about men (like some of your statements) appears on it?

So your husband and you apparently feel very comfortable sitting on God's judgement throne, don't you? It's not up to the two of you to determine whether I'm husband material. Who do you think you are that you will judge Someone Elses servant? God? In Job 32:7 it's rightly written: "It is not only the old who are wise, not only the aged who understand what is right." Amen.

That's funny that a single man like Paul would be preaching that every man and every woman should be married. The way you explain it, Paul is not exactly walking the talk, is he? Besides that, is Jesus not coming soon today as well? Isn't the worry that men wouldn't devote themselves to the work of Jesus also for today?

Paul makes very clear that being single is not better or worse than being married. Did you never read 1 Korinthians 7:32-35: "I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord."

What matters to Paul is not whether you are married or not, but your undivided devotion to the Lord. These verses even give the impression that being single is preferrable over being married.

Again, finding something does not imply actively looking for, searching or pursuing it. That's the same in many languages. God did not ask Adam to look for Eve or even to pursue her, He just brought Eve to him.

There are no Biblical commandments for men to search, pursue or look for wives (no, not Psalm 56:1 either). In Song of Solomon 3:2, 5:6 and 6:1 you see the girl starting to search / look for her boyfriend. So letting the men do all the searching may be popular in certain conservative circles, it's simply not Biblical.

Maybe you're thinking of Jeremiah 2:24 where males are indeed pursuing females. However, this verse speaks about donkeys....

Posted By: Ruud | October 16, 2009 12:02 PM

"Now for the matters that you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to marry, but, since there is SO MUCH IMMORALITY, each man should have his own wife, and each woman, her own husband". Therefore, 1 Corinthians 7 is a letter that Paul wrote in response to questions or concerns the church wrote about. Because we don't have the questions or concerns, we really don't know the context of Paul's response. In particular, how does Paul know that there is "so much immorality?" And exactly what is the definition of "so much immorality" in comparison to say just "immorality?" If there was just "immorality" would Paul have responded differently? So I think 1 Corinthians needs to be taken with a "gain of salt" and not just applied word for word to support a view or position on marriage.

Posted By: Larry | October 16, 2009 1:15 PM

Ruud,
More twisting I see. Ya know, you're like a snake in the grass, twisting and writhing to get away. In your case ...the truth. Oh...boo hoo hoo, I'm name calling "Someone Else's servant". That's a laugh. Sorry, God DID tell men to "look" aka "search " for a wife. And Adam was ALONE! So he couldn't exactly persue Eve could he?
You have not been able to prove anything I've said as wrong. Truth is truth is truth no matter if you like it or not. And yes, it is VERY strange behavior that you keep replying to a WOMEN'S blog! That's a laugh that you say "some of my statements are nonsense", MOST of the WOMEN on here are backing up what I say. Part of the problem with you, is, you are so blinded about what your version of truth is, that you ARE NOT LISTENING to what almost ALL of the women on here have said they have experienced with men! You come on here, and keep posting: "you shouldn't judge" and it's "nonsense" and a few other lies, and think women will believe you. Well, guess what? They "ain't" that stupid! Experience speaks louder than any protests you might spout off. And Larry R E A D the whole book of I Corinthians, or is Paul a liar, that he didn't know about all of the immorality?? That is WHY he wrote the letter. And as for him being single, that is sheer speculation. He could have been married, but left his wife to follow Jesus. And it was RUUD that used this verse in support of staying single. So this scritpure goes both ways. I'm just pointing out how you anti-marriage types like to twist scripture to suit your own view. Ladies, please do NOT listen to either of these 2! Please, please avoid guys like these 2! So you say that we are comfortable judging you, well, I guess the pastors out there who have written books advising women what to look for in a mate are "judging" also. It all depends on who's saying it, doesn't it???? And yeah, I think my husband being an older, more mature, MARRIED man CAN do that! So to repeat what I said before: HE (my husband) is the one who said that the ladies should avoid guys like you. As for you being "Someone Elses servant"...oh please! Reading what you write makes me wonder just "who's servant" you really are. HE said you're very legalistic, and would beat a woman (who would be stupid enough to have a relationship with you), over the head with the bible. As for spouting nonsense, you're very good at that one! And my husband IS right, your attitude stinks! As does Larry's. Talk about BITTER!!!
It's very clear that both of you are anti-marriage! So L E A V E!!! And

Posted By: Lynne | October 16, 2009 6:27 PM

I think that most women and men are too intelligent to care much for your shouting. I didn't find a single real argument in your blind diatribe. You are only calling names. In the way you judge others, the very same way God will judge you. Married men or women are not necessarily wiser or spiritually better than singles. If they are, why are the divorce rates among Christians the same and sometimes even higher than among the general population? It's a pity that some married people like your husband and you get so smug and arrogant about their status, as if it is something they deserved and had a right on, as if they passed some exam or so, instead of considering their spouse and their ability to marry as a sign of God's Undeserved Grace.

Posted By: Ruud | October 17, 2009 1:58 AM

As someone who has just stumbled on this, I really feel your continued conversation (Ruud and Lynne) is completely unhelpful. How can you present it as God glorifying in any shape or form. Maybe a little bit of the grace you're both accusing each other of not having?? I dread to think what someone who is not a christian would think if they, like me, stumbled on this. Please, for the sake of God's glory and the love that Jesus commanded us to have for each other, just stop now. I don't this site was meant for what it seems to have become

Posted By: Rosey | October 18, 2009 5:42 PM

Wow, what a topic. :) I would like to bring a different perspective into it, just from my personal experiences. I am young (22) and so am in the midst of this whole dating time of life. And I think that there's a lot of mixed things going on that contribute to the issues. In my experience, I have seen a lack of young Christian men who are mature in faith. It's not about finances or anything, simply faith. A lot of the young women I know are passionate about God- they love prayer, worshipping God, read the Bible a lot, etc. etc. However, there is a mismatch in numbers between young Christian women who are passionate about Jesus and young Christian men who demonstrate the same committment to faith. And, to further complicate the issue, I have seen it happen on many occasions where the men who are very passionate about Christ and mature in faith are the ones who do not date at all and wait until their late 20's to get married. But on the flip side, I think a lot of us young Christian women have too high of expectations- not necessarily for faith (because it could be a dangerous thing to marry someone who is wishy-washy in that area), but in terms of personality and looks and everything else. No one is perfect, and life and our walks with God is a process of growth.

That said, I think that another issue that contributes is the lack of Godly role models for good marriages. A lot of young people (myself included) have now grown up in divorced homes and so have not had that model for a good, Godly relationship. Yes, I see many Christian marriages in church, however it is one thing to see people on a Sunday or Wednesday and a completely different thing having learned from the day-in and day-out by being part of that family. So a lot of what a good, healthy, Godly relationship looks like is not experienced by a lot of young people, compared to previous decades.

Those are just my personal experiences, however, and I know that it is not true for everyone. :)

Posted By: Cassie | October 19, 2009 12:07 AM

It's me again.

I just wanted to say that I like what Aya wrote a few posts above- our purpose in this life is knowing Christ, our true Bridegroom, and learning to abide in Him more and more. That's true, regardless of what circumstances we are in. One inspiration for me is the missionary Amy Carmichael. She went to do missions work in India, and although she desired to be married, she desired God above all else and to do His work. And while she did not end up getting married, she did find that even in her times of loneliness, God was sufficient and He gave her strength and brought her through tough times.

So let's not argue and yell at each other, but encourage each other as we should do. No matter what situation we are going through (marriage-related or not), what truly matters out of all things is our God, who is amazing.

Posted By: Cassie | October 19, 2009 12:25 AM

Im a 23 old brother (I just realized right now that I will be entering my mid-twenties), and I married less than 2 months ago with a godly woman who is 28. In the eyes of the world she doesn't look all that "gorgeous", but to me she is the most beautiful woman. She loves God a lot and her life is a testimony in this sense.
Before meeting me, and before I committed to her 2 years ago, she had a crisis where she asked God how come she is not finding a man for her heart. It turns out that many men tried (most of them very timidly) to approach her, but in her heart she knew that those men are not for her. She refused men who were in very stable material conditions, some had even decent characters, but each time she was true to her heart.

From early age God spoke to her that she should rely on God and wait on Him untill He will bring a man into her life. It turns out that God did not bring me into her life untill she has been content with being single in Christ. When she finally got it, that is when Christ brought me into her picture.

On the other hand, from an early age I had the ambition to make sure that I will choose a very special woman. When I was younger and more naive, I put significant emphasis on looks, but after being in a relationship with an appealing girl for 4 years, I realized that the outter beauty has marginal correlation with the inside beauty. God enabled me to switch my mindset, from a worldly one to a godly one. Being a pastor's daughter, my wife has been exposed to hundreds of men and women who were either single or married. She decried the spiritual and marital expectations in both genders.

Among many things she told me that many young men do not know what they want in life so either they are not willing to committ or they do it on a superficial basis. She also told me that many women look for men with material posessions or they give in to the pressure to marry by a certain age. Contrary to common sense, it seems that even women started to care about looks (perhaps not as much as the men).

Therefore, I think that it is the mentality in both genders which is flawed and needs to be adressed. To answer the article's question - what must a woman do when there is a deficit of godly men - I adress my wife's response: she trusted God that she will be given as a husband a man who will love and cherish her for who she is. And the same goes for men! Probably easier to say than to do.

To adress the larger problem - why is there a deficit in both genders, I think Christians as parents and leaders must assume responsability for not sowing the right values and mindsets in our children. Pastors should set higher standards for marriage, and teaching should be provided in the appropriate context to young people in order to ensure that they will not end up adopting the world's mindest on marriage.

Anyways, may all of you be blessed with all that you need to walk in God's plans for you.

Respectfully,
Mike

Posted By: Mike | October 19, 2009 2:30 PM

The tone and tenor in these postings indicates that feelings are very touchy here. That tells me that the church and church leadership has some work to do-some very thoughtful work and prayer needs to be done. I do not see it as an "either-or" situation-meaning it is either all the women's fault OR all the men's fault. Society has greatly greatly changed in the past 30 years. Access to higher education has changed, work life has changed, birth control is completely available, the economy has gone up and it has gone down-single households are approaching the norm, and divorce is over 50%. Of course the dynamics of dating and marriage hae changed. But God's intention has not-and the truth of the bond of marriage needs to be clearly articulated without any other agenda. The Bible does not speak to early or late marriage, early or late childbearing, economic status at the time of marriage, etc. And the church should not be engaged in some of the garbage posted here. But it does speak very clearly about love, respect, honor, sacrifice, prayer, and a household devoted to God-no matter the size.
My prayer is that there is NOT a single person who looks to the world, TV, talk radio, or parachurch groups to define what their world, their goals, their options. But they look to the Bible and their Lord to guide their path.

Posted By: trisha | October 19, 2009 2:36 PM

Trisha said,

The Bible does not speak to early or late marriage

Oops!!!

I found at least four passages which refer to the "wife of your youth".

See Proverbs 5:18 as an example.

early or late childbearing

again untrue,

Sarah, and Elizabeth are two examples of women who had children in their old age, and they conceived only by a miraculous working of God. Childbearing is biologically suited by the creator God to young women. Women who attempt to pursue education and career, then have children when they are done finding fulfillment in the office cubicle, are limiting their ability to procreate, to a few years at the end of their biological clock.

But they look to the Bible and their Lord to guide their path.

Agreed. So when you mention a Titus 2 kind of wife, expect those who look to the world, TV and the feminist movement to protest vehemently against the Biblical pattern.

Posted By: farmer Tom | October 20, 2009 9:26 PM

The Bible does not command anyone to marry young. Many people would have liked to marry young, but didn't get the opportunity, didn't get the choice. Actually, the Bible does not command in general anyone to either marry or to stay single. It will just be different for everyone, since the Lord has a unique path for everyone.

Posted By: Ruud | October 21, 2009 10:49 AM

To marry young or late is someones personal choice. It depends on situations and circumstances. It has nothing to do with Christianity or Bible.

Posted By: akkus | October 22, 2009 2:15 AM

I am a single, never married 35 year old woman. I enjoy being single, I love watching God use my freedom in my life to serve Him and His kingdom.

At the same time my heart aches for someone to love me...and for me to love him. I am not sure there are simple answers to this issue.

What i do know is that we can talk until the cows come home on rollerskates about whose to blame...but it doesn't change the reality of what God has asked us to do. Whether we are single because we are too picky, or no one has fallen in love with us...if we are single, we are called to purity. Period.

It is hard to remain pure. I have all the hormones and sexual drive as all my married friends and no place to express that. But, because they all have it and I don't, it is not a license to go out and have pre-marital sex.

Is it hard? Yup...but I am pretty sure, "Deny yourself and pick up your cross" could encompass this issue too.

In the meantime, I am working hard to allow the Spirit to conform me more and more into the image of His Son.

And you know what I have found to be true...He is enough for me...sometimes I believe that in faith...sometimes I am overcome with such a wave of love for God I cannot imagine any man ever thrilling me the way God does. So, I swim in the glory of the latter and pray for God's grace and provision in the former. He is the God of both states of being.

Posted By: Lisa | November 10, 2009 11:46 AM

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