Her.meneutics: Stanton Jones, CedarvilleOUT Come to Campus

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November 13, 2009

Stanton Jones, CedarvilleOUT Come to Campus

As a resident director mentoring struggling students, I welcome open conversation about same-sex attraction.

Marlena Graves, guest blogger

Last spring, John* asked if we could meet at the Hive, our college campus snack shop. After a bit of small talk, he confided, “My friends said that you’re someone I’d feel safe talking to. And this is what I wanted to tell you: Since junior high, I’ve known that I am gay. I don’t think I’ll ever change. If you lined up one hundred of the most beautiful women you could find, I’d maybe be somewhat attracted to one.”

“Have you told your parents?” I asked. “Yeah. I came out right before I returned to school this year. I’m not looking forward to going home.”

Last year, Hope* told me that she struggled with homosexuality. Hope grew up in a legalistic Christian home where an older sibling had sexually abused her. Her parents have no clue about her struggles, and based on past experience, Hope believes her mom would turn suicidal should she discover her daughter’s same-sex attraction.

This semester, as we sat and talked in my apartment, her eyes beamed. “I actually had a crush on a guy who I worked with at Christian summer camp! I don’t feel so gay anymore.” But she also related how her ex-girlfriend recently ridiculed her faith in Christ, and how a female co-worker had confessed to having a crush on her. “The thing is, I have never told anyone I was gay. I don’t even know how she knew. Please pray that I would be protected from temptation.”

As a resident director and spiritual mentor at Cedarville University, a Baptist evangelical school in the Midwest, I interact with students in almost every facet of college life, and delight in encouraging them to follow Jesus closely in the midst of their struggles. I live with my husband and 2-year-old daughter in an apartment attached to a women’s dorm at Cedarville. In the past few years, the Residence Life Department has seen an increase in the number of students confiding their struggles with same-sex attraction. And because we believe the Bible expressly forbids homosexual behavior, yet desire help in being Christ to students who struggle with their sexuality, we invited Stanton Jones, provost and psychology professor at Wheaton College, to discuss the research published in his 2007 book, Ex-Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation, for Cedarville’s Critical Concern Series.

In his first lecture October 28, Jones addressed the question, Can gays change? He and his colleague, psychologist Mark Yarhouse of Regent University, studied a group of 98 men and women seeking to change from a homosexual to heterosexual orientation through the ministry of Exodus International. The study found that 15 percent of those who sought help from Exodus were successful in changing their sexual orientation. And 23 percent of the subjects remained celibate. In addition, Jones and Yarhouse found no measurable evidence that attempting to change one’s orientation is mentally harmful.

In his evening lecture, which addressed the question, Is homosexual conduct wrong? Jones referred to Scripture and the testimony of prominent theologians to argue that Scripture unequivocally forbids homosexual behavior. But he also challenged the church to treat homosexuals with love, respect, and compassion, and answered questions after both lectures.

Upon hearing that Jones would lecture on campus, members of Cedarville Out, a group of gay/lesbian and supporting Cedarville alumni (not endorsed by the school), decided to attend his lectures and requested a chance to schedule an on-campus meeting to present their views. Cedarville denied the request, so the group hosted a post-lecture panel discussion at an off-site coffee house. Instead of a formal presentation, the group focused primarily on telling their stories and allowing audience questions to shape the discussion. Three gay men on the panel shared how they had spent years trying unsuccessfully to overcome homosexuality. Eventually, the men said, they embraced what they saw as their “God-given” homosexual orientation, believing that since it is God-given, it cannot be wrong. All three said that they were committed Christians, leading happy, fulfilling lives.

Over and over again, Cedarville students mentioned to me the benefit of hearing Jones’s gracious presentations and Cedarville Out’s humble response to student, staff, and faculty questions. Neither side caricatured the other. Moreover, students became familiar with the strongest arguments on each side of the issue. My experience in the Christian community is that, where strong arguments are presented by proponents from both sides of the issue, gracious conversation is rare. Why? Because of fear that such open discussion will prompt students to endorse homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle. Or fear that expressing a desire to hear both sides will lead to verbal attacks and defamatory labels. It’s my conviction that completely isolating students from those who present opposing arguments to their views, in an effort to protect them, will ultimately backfire. If Cedarville and other evangelical colleges are not places where students can work through this issue in Christian community, I fear they will seek help and information elsewhere — from unorthodox sources who may not value the Scriptures as we do.

A few days after the discussion, I ran into Hope on the sidewalk, and asked what she thought about Jones’s lecture and Cedarville Out’s panel. She told me that she had a lot swimming around in her head and that we would need to talk soon. Last time John and I spoke in the cafeteria, he said he was contemplating whether or not to remain celibate. We plan to catch up next week.

Marlena Graves (M.Div., Northeastern Seminary) is a resident director at Cedarville University. She blogs at His Path Through the Wilderness.

*Names changed to protect students’ identity.

Comments

I was so happy to learn about Carl Ruby's acceptance of these people at Cedarville. As Vice President he has done incredible things on campus to help open students minds toward gay/alternative lifestyles.

During orientation/training for Resident Directors this last August, he required all of the RD's to gather together for an entire presentation of "Through my Eyes," a film produced by thr Gay Christian Network (gaychristian.net).

View the trailer here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBMbNSyqwkA

I'm so glad Cedarville is now embracing the realities of gay christians by supporting and loving all of those who are Christian--and gay.

Thank you Carl Ruby and other leaders at Cedarville for this and the many other supportive statements and efforts you are making on our behalf--now "that's SO Cedarville!"

I forgot one important thing -

If anyone would like to see the whole film, learn more, buy a copy, or support the Gay Christian Network just visit:

http://www.gaychristian.net

I'm so glad to hear that some paid staffers at Cedarville are boldly recognizing the relational realities of this century. I would not presume to dictate how to minister to the GLBT community myself, but reading "Love Is An Orientation" by Andrew Marin is a great place to start. All I can testify to is that there are wonderful GLBT people and they deserve our affirmation, not the condemnation of being treated as if they were diseased.

This was a helpful article for several reasons. While the author explicitly points out that Cedarville is firmly opposed to homosexual practice on biblical grounds, it shows that Cedarville's Residence Life staff is committed to treating all people with dignity, love, and respect. This is the biblical way to proceed, and Cedarville seems to be taking it seriously. Good for them. Other evangelical institutions should follow suit, if they aren't already.

The article also rightly points out that this is an issue with real people behind it. Real lives are affected. Real students are dealing with this. This isn't just textbook stuff. So enough of the "verbal attacks" and "defamatory labels", as the author puts it. Both sides are guilty of this, and it needs to stop. It doesn't help anything. Real people get trashed along the way, and that is definitely not the biblical way to proceed. It's encouraging to see that Cedarville seems to realize this. Again, good for them.

Thanks for this piece!

Thank you, Marlena, for addressing this issue with compassion. Jesus called us to love each other, not just the people who look, think, or feel like we do. Real people need real compassion as they struggle with real problems.

It is one thing to be compassionate to people of all backgrounds; it is quite another thing to be sympathetic. From the comments of those who responded to this attempt of Cedarville to be understanding of the challenges faced by gays who claim to be Christians, it seems that Cedarville's efforts have been interpreted as sympathetic rather than corrective. We must not forget that the Scriptures declare homosexuality to be an abomination. The fact that those who practice sins condemned and forbidden by Scripture are often affable people does not negate the biblical mandate to repent of such sins and to follow Christ whatever the cost. I wouldn't object to any Christian organization showing compassion and seeking to help people escape their sinful lifestyle and addictions, but such organizations should not compromise what Scripture says. The goal should always be deliverance, not acquiescence.

@James West: Good point. Now as to the article: So what? Everyone got a chance to talk about their "feelings". Kind of like the AA meetings: "Hi. My name is (fill in the blank) and I'm a ( G L B T circle the appropriate letter.)" It would be interesting to know what Ms. Graves told her mentees after they confided in her. "Be warmed and be filled? Or "Go and sin no more." And, are those students struggling with same sex addiction given on-campus/off camput support for overcoming their addiction? Or is it just talk, talk, and more talk, with the Johns and Hopes on that campus left like Jonathan Edward's spider dangling over the proverbial fire?

So, 85% of the folks in Stanton's study, which covered a group more highly motivated than most to change, did not change their orientation? (That an additional 23% remained celibate doesn't mean they changed their sexual orientation. Just poll the members of any singles group or any group of Catholic priests.) And even then, Stanton says in his book that he can't promise that those who "changed" will remain "changed" over the long haul.

Despite this evidence, from within the Christian community yet, that sexual orientation is unchangeable in the vast majority of those studied, not only does CT feel compelled to put scare-quotes around "God-given" as it relates to the orientation of gay Christians, CT can't even bring itself to use that phrase, choosing the more elusive "gay/lesbian ... Cedarville alumni." Sigh.

James, this is closer to the truth: We must not forget that SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT the Scriptures declare homosexuality to be an abomination. We must also not forget that SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT condemning homosexuality violates the teachings of the Scriptures.

That's where the compassion comes in. I say this to myself as much as to those who disagree with me because here's the thing that both sides sometimes forget: Bible-believing progressive Christians (and yes, progressives should reclaim the phrase "Bible-believing") believe that Bible-believing conservative Christians are just as sinful in their treatment of gays, and just as sinful in preaching the submission of women, as conservatives believe the progressives (or egalitarians) are in preaching the opposite. We each believe Scripture is on our side.

So, James, I pray for your deliverance from your sin of preaching condemnation for gays. I realize you pray for my deliverance for what you believe is my sin of supporting my gay Christian friends.

I commend Cedarville for allowing the discussion, although making the gay group meet off campus is just petty. At some point, though, I believe that, after enough such visits, even conservative Christian institutions like Cedarville will come to recognize that a GLBT sexual orientation is just as God-given as a straight sexual orientation is. And that many gays are more than just "affable," as James snidely notes. Getting to know some gay Christians, like the ones I've known at my church, will demonstrate quite clearly that these gay Christians truly show the "fruits of the Spirit," or not, in exactly the same ways as straight people do. And, "fruits of the Spirit" is the only measuring stick we've been given.

Keith – I believe you missed something in the article or your reading something into the post which just is not there. I do not believe that Mrs. Graves or Mr. Ruby (not mentioned in the article ??) “have done incredible things on campus to help open students minds toward gay/alternative lifestyles.” Quite the contrary; it appears to me that Cedarville is placing a very high value on the truth of scripture (homosexuality is sin) in its entirety and providing an atmosphere were these truths contact a generation of believers within their culture while remembering “and the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Praise God that there are bold evangelicals that will graciously and kindly talk about the difficult aspect of life in a sin cursed world within the context of what God desires for us.

@ Keith: I’m glad you’re supportive of Carl Ruby’s efforts, but I want to make sure that we accurately characterize his policy and practices here. When you say “he has done incredible things on campus to help open students minds toward gay/alternative lifestyles” it may appear to some that he is endorsing the lifestyle. Marlena articulated the Cedarville position perfectly in the words, “. . . because we believe the Bible expressly forbids homosexual behavior, yet desire help in being Christ to students who struggle with their sexuality . . . .” With regard to the video used in training for RA’s, Carl did this, not in an effort to affirm/approve of same-sex lifestyles, but to create understanding among student leaders who find themselves as the first counselors whom struggling students come to. From the beginning Carl’s focus has simply been to approach the issue and the individuals as Jesus would. This has led to conversations with GLBT people, educational opportunities such as Stanton Jones’ visit to campus, and sitting down to meals with the soulforce riders, all in an attempt to bring biblical truth and godly compassion to the situation. Carl has been vilified, as Jesus was, for treating all people with respect and understanding— for “eating with sinners,” but Jesus knew that the most loving thing we can do for ourselves and all our neighbors is direct them toward God-honoring practices and lifestyles. Carl has maintained that very difficult Christ-like balance as he has led Cedarville and I commend him for doing so.

@CL: "Bible-believing progressive (read postmodern/liberal) Christians (and yes, progressives should reclaim the phrase "Bible-believing")" "Bible-believing progressives" -that's an oxymoron.
Also: "SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT the Scriptures declare homosexuality to be an abomination." That "some" people would specifically include (Post Law) Paul the Apostle (Rom. 1:26; I Cor. 6:9, I Tim.1:10); Moses ( Pre-Law,Gen. 19:4-7; Law, Lev. 18:22.) Course, CL can't provide any scripture justifying her belief to which she alluded, but she doesn't let that stand in her way. But we should approach the homosexual the same way Jesus approached all of humanity's suffering: Luke 13:3 - Repent of your sins; John 1:12 - Receive Christ; Luke 9:23 - take up your cross and follow Me; John 15:14 - Obedience to Him. Jesus did not tell the woman caught in adultery that she was oppressed and was a victim (altho she was - oppressed and victimized by sin and probably by the man who used her!). He did not tell her that her adultery was understandable given her orientation was heterosexual. He didn't tell her that she should try to form a loving and committed relationship with the man she was committing adultery with. He told her to go and sin no more. The application is discipleship. I hope Ms. Graves and Cedarville are doing just that.

I'd like to personally thank Bob and Chris for their kind words. I don't know who Keith is and I regret that he has misunderstood, or misrepresented my position. He is welcome to contact me at (937) 766-7871 or rubyc@cedarville.edu if he wishes for a clearer understanding of my thoughts on this issue.

My heart goes out to people who are struggling in this area, particularly to the college students with whom I work. We are seeking to live out our commitment to redemptive discipline and biblical discipleship. We are trying to do this with the guidance of the written word of God, and following the example of the Living Word of God.

For those who desire a better understanding of Cedarville's
position and practice I refer you to the presentation by Stan Jones that we recently sponsored on campus. This is one of the clearest and most thorough presentations on this topic that I am aware of. Stan also models a spirit which I hope many of us will be able to emulate.

http://www.cedarville.edu/departments/studentlifeprograms/criticalconcern/exgays/video.cfm

You can also review my public statement on this issue (Feb 22,2007 Chapel Message), and other resources that we have provided for our students and the local church at the site below.

http://www.cedarville.edu/speakingtruth/seminars.cfm

What a great story! It's great to see this school finally catch up to this century. It's touching to see that they are including bisexuals like me who like to sleep with both men and women. So often it's just the straights, or just the gays who get the perks. It's about time a good Christian college finally included we bisexuals as well. We have it tough enough as it when the straights call us gay and our gay comrades call us "closet heterosexuals."

I also struggle with SSA. And I def agree with a biblical mandate that homosexual sex is not approved by God, because the only venue that God approved for ANY sexual relations is within the context of marriage as defined by God when he "married" the first couple He created. Regardless of how "progressives" would like to re-interpret scripture.

But my position on this issue does not absolve me, no it actually compels me to pursue honest and open relationships with other strugglers, non-strugglers, and those who have embraced their struggles and made it their new normal.

I'm encouraged to see Cedarville address this issue, not for the progressiveness that some may hope it heralds...but for the love that it shows to those of us who have struggled in silence - fearing rejection from both sides. One side rejecting us for having the feelings, the other side rejecting us for not fully embracing them (the feelings).

@n'Process: "I def agree with a biblical mandate that homosexual sex is not approved by God, because the only venue that God approved for ANY sexual relations is within the context of marriage as defined by God when he "married" the first couple He created. Regardless of how "progressives" would like to re-interpret scripture." Stay committed to the truth of God's word - read it, study it, memorize it, meditate on it, pray over it. II Cor. 12:8-10 says, "8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." says "Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." And I Cor. 10:13 says "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."
We who don't struggle with SS attraction struggle with other areas just as addictive. It's not a sin to be tempted. You will always find Christians who will help you along the way. I will pray for you.

I really appreciate your Her.meneutics blog. I have been reading it for 6 months and have learned a lot from it. I can't tell you how much I love coming across the extremely rare place where Christianity and Feminism is permitted to mingle. I would love to have found more Christian Feminist bloggers 'out there' in the big wide world - unfortunately her.meneutics happens to be one of the very few of these that I have been able to find. Her.meneutics is a very valuable and necessary site = thank you very much for it!

This is sometimes presented as a much more complex issue than it is. God, in Scripture, has already decleared homosexual behaviors as "sinful desires", "impure", "degrading", and "against nature" (Romans 1:18-31). Since God created us, He should know. Scripture also teaches us that we are originally created in His image--to reflect His moral character. This is why idolatry, profanity, disrespecting parents, murder, adultery, stealing,lying, and coveting are also sinful (Exodus 20:1-17) as well as additional items such as drunkenness (covered in Ephesians 4:17 through 5:21). These are not things that we must do in order to merit God's favor, these are things that we will do because we have turned away from all wrong and received His gracious offer of forgiveness in Jesus, the Christ, and strength through His indwelling Spirit to stop habitually doing wrong (we still make mistakes sometimes) and do what is right. In this article, the person in view has a past history of "a legalistic Christian home where an older sibling (male?) had sexually abused her." Her struggle with identity is likely a reaction to this. A competant, Christian counselor should be able to help her resolve this in a healthier way. Could a person be a Christian and struggle with same sex attraction? Well, could a person be a Christian and struggle with lying, stealing, or adultry? We all have our struggles, but Thanks be to God who gives us the victory and provides a way of escape. But we all must first come to agree with Him and daily seek His grace. God bless!

@Dan - Thank you so much! Those verses were just the encouragement I needed this morning.

God Bless!

More than ever people are asking us in the church about homosexuality. In attempting to navigate a biblical and gracious response, I found the resources at Cedarville to be very helpful and biblically sound. I have visited campus to attend lectures, workshops and chapel when this subject is raised. The assumption that the 'ville is supportive of this lifestyle is grossly misinformed.

We must remember that we all are in need of redemption and that the Gospel does transform lives. We have a simple message: there is hope in Christ.

NOT communicating that message by replacing it with mere acceptance is not a loving response. But communicating God's condemnation first evaporates the audience needing the hope which Christ offers.

These posts seem to suggest that "struggling with homosexuality" which would include bisexuality and lesbianism is similar to struggling with any other sin be it greed or adultery. There should be no doubt that homosexuality may not be a lifestyle choice, but rather an orientation over which one has no control. That is, they are born homosexual. True, there may be some heterosexuals that freely choose the homosexual lifestyle, but the vast majority of homesexuals don't seem to be in that category. A good analogy is a comparison to an overweight person. Some people are born with a metabolism, etc. that regardless of the amount of dieting and will power are unable to lose weight. But there are others that are simply gluttons and eat too much. Similar with homosexuality.

@Mack: "...homosexuality may not be a lifestyle choice, but rather an orientation over which one has no control. That is, they are born homosexual."
And so many say the same about alcoholism, yet we don't think the alcoholic should indulge his genetic predisposition. Or in your example, obesity: just b/c a person is born with that genetic predisposition, we don't tell them to gorge themselves b/c they were born that way.

These posts seem to suggest that "struggling with homosexuality" which would include bisexuality and lesbianism is similar to struggling with any other sin be it greed or adultery.

Posted By: Mack | November 17, 2009 12:11 PM

Mack...

That would be a fact... Not speculation...

The natural inclinations of humanity is "If it feels good.. Do it." So in effect, every sin comes from an inborn natural propensity to engage in behaviors contrary to the will of God...

That being said... All who sin can use the orientation excuse... That does not excuse them from the sins that they commit.

It is only by confessing and repenting of our sins before God that we are able to find forgiveness for our sins...

And it is only through the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives that we are able to put the natural inclinations of our sinful nature to death.

Mark 10:27 Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God."

As one of the CedarvilleOUT presenters who spoke at Beans and Cream, I feel the need to respond to this article.

First, and foremost, I appreciate Mrs. Graves' compassion and empathy to those who have spoken with her. This is wonderful and it sounds as though she is fully modeling the law of love as taught to us through the Christ. I also appreciate the gracious response Mrs. Graves gave to CedarvilleOUT in her article. Her civility and compassion are a refreshing point to this conversation. We are all part of the Body of Christ and I am glad to be able to call Marlena my sister in faith. With that said I would like to address a few items from Dr. Jones' presentation and such.

(This is not meant to be mean-spirited nor bitter, but if we are a people who are committed to living in the truth, we should constantly be testing things, right?)

First, there were serious statistical and methodological issues with Dr. Jones' presentation, some of which were pointed out by some of Cedarville's own students. For example, though Dr. Jones' test subjects displayed lateral movement, none of the test subjects moved out of a "gay" orientation on the Kinsey and/or Shivley&DeCecco scales. This, in and of itself, should raise questions as to the longevity and/or efficacy of any change. Secondarily, Dr. Jones' second presentation, in which he discussed the Bible and homosexuality, did not provide the best arguments as to what his opposition believes. To be honest, his arguments did not engage the most serious scholarship within this field and were a bit trite. Third, Mrs. Graves is correct that the CedarvilleOUT response panel did not make a formal presentation. This is primarily due to the fact that CedarvilleOUT had billed the time to be one of "Question and Answer." We, as a panel, were not concerned with preaching our points, per-se, as we were with hearing what Cedarville students might want to ask us. If Cedarville was/is interested in our providing a formal rebuttal to Dr. Jones,utilizing quality Biblical scholarship and psychological analysis, we would have been most happy to do so.

With that being said, I would like to just make one note for those reading this. Lest some might think that I and others like me might make our arguments from a low view of Scripture; I, as a minister and a student of theology, hold to the veracity and primacy of the Biblical scriptures. I hold that I am a fallen man, as is all humanity, and that I am saved through the grace of Christ Jesus. However, I fully believe that it is possible, based upon exegesis, history, and analytical work, for someone to support responsible and monogamous same-sex interaction as Biblically acceptable.

Blessings and thank-you to Cedarville for sparking this discussion!

~Adam L. Wirrig

However, I fully believe that it is possible, based upon exegesis, history, and analytical work, for someone to support responsible and monogamous same-sex interaction as Biblically acceptable.~Adam L. Wirrig

Adam...

I completely disagree...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

David,
That's quite okay, you're more than allowed to disagree with me.

I'm not sure this site is the proper place for me to give a rebuttal which encompasses the complexities and nuances of the texts, their historical background, history of transmission/reception, and/or their linguistic issues. However, if you are truly interested in approaching this from a textual point of view, I would encourage you to check out a book entitled: "Homosexuality and the Church: Both Sides of the Debate." Particularly, I would encourage you to look at Victor Paul Furnish's chapter about reading the scriptures in context. (You can also check out "Sex and the Single Saviour" by Dale Martin if you'd like....it's a GREAT read, but a bit longer!)

Blessings,

Adam

@Adam: If you would, please: one verse from God's word in support of same sex marriage/homosexual behavior. Your secondary sources are not authoritative - God's word is.

Adam....

At first you sound like you believe the Bible and then you turn right around in your next post and dismiss the Bible as being unreliable...

Here are a few thoughts about that...

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right.

2Timothy 3:17 It is God's way of preparing us in every way, fully equipped for every good thing God wants us to do.

You will notice that it says "All Scripture is inspired by God".. Not "Some Scripture"... Not "Just the parts that we wish to believe".. And definitely not "I'm not sure this site is the proper place for me to give a rebuttal which encompasses the complexities and nuances of the texts, their historical background, history of transmission/reception, and/or their linguistic issues."

For you see Adam...

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.

Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done.

"For the word of God is full of living power." The word of God is not some mere piece of literature that is locked within the confines of antiquity and ancient cultural rituals... The word of God is very much alive and it is as relevant today as when Moses first began to record it...

And regarding your Victor Paul Furnish and Dale Martin...

Jeremiah 23:23 Am I a God who is only in one place?" asks the LORD. "Do they think I cannot see what they are doing?

Jeremiah 23:24 Can anyone hide from me? Am I not everywhere in all the heavens and earth?" asks the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:25 "I have heard these prophets say, `Listen to the dream I had from God last night.' And then they proceed to tell lies in my name.

Jeremiah 23:26 How long will this go on? If they are prophets, they are prophets of deceit, inventing everything they say.

Jeremiah 23:27 By telling these false dreams, they are trying to get my people to forget me, just as their ancestors did by worshiping the idols of Baal.

Jeremiah 23:28 Let these false prophets tell their dreams, but let my true messengers faithfully proclaim my every word. There is a difference between chaff and wheat!

Jeremiah 23:29 Does not my word burn like fire?" asks the LORD. "Is it not like a mighty hammer that smashes rock to pieces?

Jeremiah 23:30 "Therefore," says the LORD, "I stand against these prophets who get their messages from each other--

Jeremiah 23:31 these smooth-tongued prophets who say, `This prophecy is from the LORD!'

Jeremiah 23:32 Their imaginary dreams are flagrant lies that lead my people into sin. I did not send or appoint them, and they have no message at all for my people," says the LORD.

I was there as well--as one of those from CedarvilleOUT. I too appreciate the kindness and compassion that clearly emanates from Marlena's article.

I would like to comment on Marlena's statement: "Moreover, students became familiar with the strongest arguments on each side of the issue." Jones may have given his strongest arguments (he had a few hours to do so), but on the CedarvilleOUT side, these were not fully articulated, because of the q/a format we set up and because 4 of us shared 90 minutes. We did not get into an exegetical exposition--as that would have taken all night and into the next week. As Adam states above, there are Christians (and yes some are evangelical) who interpret Scripture in ways different than the "traditional" way. Thank goodness for arguments over interpretation--or we would still have slavery, women would be thought of as "less than human", and races would not allow to inter-marry (all supported at some time by (mis)interpretations of Scripture). I'd challenge anyone from the "gay is sin" group to read someone who disagrees with you. @Dan--Scripture doesn't just speak--it is always interpreted. And secondary sources help us interpret--even, yes Greek lexicons and concordances.

As far as Stan Jones, I would only say this: After his talk, I asked him whether researchers let their identities be known to respondents during the study. And he said yes. They told respondents: “I’m an evangelical Christian, and I’m sympathetic to your position” BEFORE doing the research.

I’m not a social scientist, but I’m guessing that REALLY skewed conclusions. If I was struggling to “escape” gayness, and had given up much to do that, and then was talking to someone who shared my position, I’m guessing that would significantly shape my responses. I know people who quit their jobs to go into “ex-gay houses" for years. I know people who have dedicated their lives to purging what they see as a sin. With that as a back-drop, my guess is some answers were bent to sympathetic questioners ("If I answer the wrong way, they will think I'm a sinner" or "If I don't say I've been changed, I've given up my job in vain"). I'd love to see research where the position of the researcher is not known. And where the subjects don't just self-report their status.

For those not there--it was a great day in Cedarville with lots of loving, fruitful discussions. Almost everyone I asked, “Have you ever met a gay Christian?” responded with “No, not until this week.” I don’t think this separation does anyone any good.

Adam, I just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful and loving posts. You will find a lot of opposition (as I'm sure you're aware), so I hope you find yourself encouraged.

Thanks again.

For those who are interested, Robert Gagnon is a serious scholar of biblical studies. Trained at Princeton and Harvard. He has a refreshingly honest, straight-forward, and exhaustively detailed explanation of the relevant scriptures that support a conservative standpoint of homosexual activity(that it is outside God's intended plan for sexual expression).

http://www.robgagnon.net/

But there will always be those, however well intentioned, folks who will take what they see or feel and attempt to support that with creative biblical interpretation. The arguments I've heard from the progressive side all seem to center around splitting hairs as to which word in the greek meant which kind of sex. And because it did not say exactly "x" then it must mean that our kind of sexual expression is not prohibited. But where in the Bible is homosexual expression celebrated? Where does Jesus sit down with the gay couple and encourage them to pursue their love? Where is is the first "gay-marriage" documented in the Bible? It's not just that I dont' see it...it's that folks like Dr Gagnon dont' see it either. So I can agree that we are all fallible men, but we are called to treat the Scriptures with special care.

@n'Process: Thanks for the reference to Dr. Gagnon's site. I've bookmarked it and checked it out just briefly - and wow! Lots of good material. Hope you're having a great day and know that I'm praying for you. I read this morning in my QT John 8:12 "Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "(L)I am the Light of the world; (M)he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." What a wonderful promise God has given us. Jesus Himself will light our way through those dark and sunless valleys David wrote about in Ps. 23.

@David Olson: If you would, please provide one verse from God's word in support of same sex marriage/homosexual behavior. Again, your secondary sources are not authoritative - God's word is. Just one verse. Just one. One, please.

@David Hardy. Do you know which Biblical books are actually being referred to by the term 'Scripture' in 2 Tim. 3:16?

@Dave Olsen. Very well put. I am curious to know what the other 85% of those -studied- had to say...

I am a member of Cedarville Out as well. Unlike my colleagues, however, I tend to agree that a -traditional- reading of the Bible (Old and New Ts) doesn't appear to leave much room for interpretation regarding homosexuality (I.e., that it was viewed as wrong in both Hebrew and Christian tradition historically). This is not to say that plausible interpretations have not been advanced to the contrary because I'm sure that they have. However, when viewed in a light most favorable to the context in which most of the above-quoted passages were ostensibly written, the view that these passages actually meant something other than what they plainly appear to state seems to me unlikely. In my opinion, however, it does not follow from this that homosexuality is wrong.

Tradtionalists (of any religious or philosophic tradition) have always tended to be more literal in their intrepretations of sacred texts than 'progressives'. In fact many traditionalists consider themselves above intepretation, typically claiming not only to have the -correct- understanding of the text but often the -only- understanding as well. That appears to be present in this debate (and it is a debate) to some degree. It would be curious to see how the debates went during late medieval/early modern eras when the Christian 'scholastics' (followers of Aquinas, et al) and Christian 'scientists' (Copernicus, Kepler, etc. -- not to be confused with the contemporary sect of the same name) were debating whether it was the earth or the sun that was at the center of the universe. The paradigm shift from the former to the latter belief was fraught with difficulty (not to mention much peril to the proponents of the sun-centered theory). It should be remembered that there were many arguments based on literal interpretations of the Bible that were advanced against the 'scientific' view, and many an earnest and devout adherent. In the end, however, the former interpretation gave way to the newer. And it wasn't the truth that had changed, it was simply man's understanding that had changed.

In the present debate, it would stand to reason that as we get closer to the truth about sexuality, sexual orientation, etc., that the long standing interpretations (and attendant prejudices) that many Christians have had must ultimately give way as well. I am not stating something new. This his been the tradition of the Church since the very beginning. One of the first prohibitions repealed by the Apostle Paul was regarding the ancient Hebrew dietary laws which, at the time, could only have been taken literally. Yet, no Christian that I know of would say that Paul was 'wrong' in this instance.

David H. and Dan,

First and foremost, let me remind you that we are to speak graciously to one another as brothers in Christ. I could be misreading, but the tones within your notes strike me as a bit combative. I hope I am just misreading.

Secondarily, yes, God's word is authoritative, but I refuse to slip into the flaw of "proof-texting." You should feel free to quote scripture all you'd like, but unless you can understand how, why, what and when that scripture was written, it's hard to understand the implied meanings of those texts. (IE: This is the first principle of exegetical work in both liberal and conservative circles. Having been educated in both worlds, I can speak on this.)Yes the Bible is the word of God, but let us not make it a trite document which can be bantered about without any deep study or training. As one of my professors used to say: "The Bible is shallow enough for a baby to wade into; but deep enough to drown an elephant." In other-words, there is much we can learn for personal life from reading the Bible; however, if we are to construct metanarratives and ethical systems, we must dedicate ourselves to the seriousness of this discussion.

Third, Dan, if you'd like a Bible verse, I'll give you 1 Corinthians 6:9; however, I will direct you to the Luther translation of 1525. Luther translates the Koine word "arsenokoites" as "knabbenschander" or, literally, "boy-abuser." This is QUITE different from the 20th century interpretation of "homosexual offenders." Upon examining Luther's sermons and other writings, we find that this is a term he only employed when discussing pedophiles. If/when Luther addresses adult same-sex interaction he uses the terms "buben" or "ketzer." Thus, it would seem that Luther is specifically naming pedophiles in this passage, NOT same-sex adult interactions. This is just one of many discrepancies and nuances which can be found within the history of the canon. Thus, it is important to examine secondary sources such as Puff, Jordan, Furnish, et al.

Fourth, Robert Gagnon's work has largely been panned by both sides of the divide. Just as John Boswell has been shied away from by pro-gay advocates, so Gagnon has been shied away from for his lack of intellectual veracity. If you want a good anti-gay critique from an Evangelical viewpoint, I would encourage you to read Richard Hays or Stanley Hauerwas. I don't agree with either, but they are quality scholars.

With all that said, I thank you, my brothers and sisters for this rousing discussion; hopefully this is edifying. It is my hope that you will join me in praying and longing for the day when we might be united singularly by the strong saving power of Christ Jesus alone.

Blessings,

Adam

@Adam: Still waiting for any verse that supports same sex marriage/homosexual behavior. Give me something. DH can give you quite a list that sure seem to prohibit it. And it doesn't take a linguistic genius or a biblical scholar to interpret those scriptures either. Or since you seem to be knowledgable, please provide me from the last 20 centuries of christian thinking where ss marriage/homosexual behavior was condoned by the church - Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Protestant. Thank you ahead of time.

Dan,
This will be my last comment as I can't help but feel this dialog is quickly turning into an unedifying conversation and I'm not looking for an excuse to lose my temper....

1.) I gave you a verse in my prior post which, in its historic context shows that there is an entirely different dialog going on within that passage at a different point in time. I can walk through each of the prohibitive passages and explain from an exegetical standpoint why they do not prohibit monogamous same-sex interaction as we know it. However, as I tried to say earlier, this is not the forum for that. (I can't really post 12 pages of lecturing notes on here, sorry!)

2.) Yes, actually it does take a linguistic genius and/or a biblical scholar to interpret those passages. Hence the reason Biblical scholars on both sides of the ideological divide spend anywhere from 12-16 years in dedicated theological study.

3.) To reduce this argument to marriage or a canonical reference for homosexuality is, ultimately, trite. Homosexuality,as a term, did not come into existence until the 19th century, so to even phrase the argument in such terms skews the argument entirely. Secondarily, as marriage is an ever evolving institution -even in the canon of scripture- it is, again, highly skewed to try to pack the argument into such parameters. What I will say, though, is that the relative silence of the Judeo-Christian faith over same-sex interaction during the Hellenistic and Roman time periods causes much question. If the church is to be so diametrically opposed to same-sex interaction, why does it receive such brief treatment within the canon? (Esp. as it was so prevalent in such a time period.) Definitely something to think about.

And with that, I'm out. Peace, blessings, and grace to you all on your journeys!

Adam

Colin...

You not only look right at the truth regarding homosexuality, you articulate it too and then you deny it all...

Matthew 13:14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: `You will hear my words, but you will not understand; you will see what I do, but you will not perceive its meaning.

Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes-- so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.'

2Timothy 4:3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear.

2Timothy 4:4 They will reject the truth and follow strange myths.

Yes the Bible is the word of God, but let us not make it a trite document which can be bantered about without any deep study or training. As one of my professors used to say: "The Bible is shallow enough for a baby to wade into; but deep enough to drown an elephant." In other-words, there is much we can learn for personal life from reading the Bible; however, if we are to construct metanarratives and ethical systems, we must dedicate ourselves to the seriousness of this discussion.-- Adam Wirrig

Adam...

I too believe that the Bible is the word of God... I also believe that it is the living word of God able to speak to each of us across time and space.... I also believe that the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, just as Jesus said He would... That makes the Bible timeless...

Rest assured that I have devoted the better part of 46 years to the study of the Bible and I fully understand and appreciate the seriousness of this discussion...

Adam...

What to do with old country boys like me?

Acts 4:13 The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men who had had no special training. They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus.

And what does the Bible say about scholars?...

1Corinthians 1:19 As the Scriptures say, "I will destroy human wisdom and discard their most brilliant ideas."

1Corinthians 1:20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense.

And what does the Bible say about human wisdom?...

1Corinthians 3:18 Stop fooling yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world's standards, you will have to become a fool so you can become wise by God's standards.

1Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "God catches those who think they are wise in their own cleverness."

1Corinthians 3:20 And again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are worthless."

And what does God say about Himself?...

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while you can find him. Call on him now while he is near.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the people turn from their wicked deeds. Let them banish from their minds the very thought of doing wrong! Let them turn to the LORD that he may have mercy on them. Yes, turn to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Isaiah 55:8 "My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.

Isaiah 55:9 For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.

And what does God say about education?...

Hebrews 8:10 But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds so they will understand them, and I will write them on their hearts so they will obey them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Hebrews 8:11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their family, saying, `You should know the Lord.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will already know me.

@Adam: This is the verse you feel supports ss marriage/homosexual behavior? I Cor. 6:9 "9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Who does Paul say won't inherit the KoG? 1. sexually immoral; 2.idolaters;3.adulterers; 4. male prostitutes;5. homosexual offenders. Now who do you think Paul was writing this to? Linguistic geniuses'? Liberal scholastics? No. Average people. Average people who knew what sexual immorality was, who knew what idolaters were; who knew what the rest of them were. Only someone with an exaggerated sense of their own intellectual prowess could take I Cor. 6:9 and try to convice reasonably intelligent people that it means the opposite of what it says. The liberal/postmodern so-called scholars remind me of Humpty Dumpty's line in Through the Looking Glass: " "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
Through the Looking Glass.
The religious "priesthood" (liberal/postmodern "so called" biblical scholars) think they are the only ones who are qualified and capable of interpreting God's word for us poor rubes. Adam pretty much said that above: "Yes, actually it does take a linguistic genius and/or a biblical scholar to interpret those passages." No it doesn't, Adam. With all due respect, I'm not buying your shtick.

dan and david h.-

"Methinks the [thou] doth protest too much..."

is it your personal mission to argue homosexuality? are you also on forums for liars, coveters, agnostics, and every other sin and arguing with this much passion and hatred? hmm.

are you making jesus happy right now?

@SS Marriage/homosexual advocates; This has to be homosexual advocates explaining the biblical texts prohibiting homosexual behavior:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AQ3Xj49XPE
(Just my tongue firmly-in-cheek humor.)

@Get a life: And your personal mission then must be to admonish those who you think are on a personal mission...? I see. Well, glad you showed up. I notice you only pointed to us who don't agree with the ss sex marriage/homosexual acitvists. They show up by the scads, and yet you don't say anything about them. Hmmm. And they get ugly, too. I just asked them to provide a single verse in support of ss marriage/homosexual behavior and they get real sensitive. Seems like you might want to know, too. Or why did you comment, then?

dan and david h.-

"Methinks the [thou] doth protest too much..."

is it your personal mission to argue homosexuality? are you also on forums for liars, coveters, agnostics, and every other sin and arguing with this much passion and hatred? hmm.

are you making jesus happy right now?

Posted By: get a life... | November 18, 2009 11:00 PM

I find your protestations to be rather gratuitous under the circumstances...

If you will note, this is a comment board attached to an article dealing with the issue of homosexuality as it impacts believers in Jesus...

That said, it is only reasonable to conclude that the discussion on this board would center on that very topic...

To attempt to draw attention away from the obvious sin of homosexual behavior and replace it with off topic discussion dealing with other sin, would tend to obfuscate the actual focus of the discussion at hand...

For you to attempt to cover one sin by pointing out another, does not cause either sin to go away, nor does it excuse one or the other... When you stack manure, it is all manure...

Proverbs 28:13 People who cover over their sins will not prosper. But if they confess and forsake them, they will receive mercy.

Proverbs 28:14 Blessed are those who have a tender conscience, but the stubborn are headed for serious trouble.

i dont know how i stumbled across this article... i'm definitely not a christian and glad for it seeing this back and forth banter. specifically dan's terribly rude, biting, arrogant and TERRIBLE discussion skills... i've always noticed how so many christians cannot listen. my mother used to remind me incessantly that God says to listen before you get angry.

Posted By: stunned. | November 19, 2009 8:39 AM

One would think that perhaps you are not a Christian because you have no desire to live up to your mother's counsel...

Thank you to David, Adam, and Dan for your thoughts on this important issue. At this point I feel the back-and-forth comments have become somewhat unfruitful for other blog readers. Please try to keep comments focused on Marlena Graves's original post, and to type things you would be comfortable saying to someone in person.

Best,
Katelyn Beaty
kbeaty[at]christianitytoday.com

The proud will be humbled and the humble will be honored. I just read that somewhere....somewhere...
May we all have peace, love and forgiveness.

@Katelyn Beaty: Thank you for your redirection. Noted.

Best,
Katelyn Beaty
kbeaty[at]christianitytoday.com

Katelyn...

Thank you...

It is my belief that this discussion should indeed center on the Marlena Graves blog...

However, with all due respect, it is also my belief that there is more homosexual advocacy taking place here, rather than discussion regarding the acknowledgement of the fact that while the practice of homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God, believers can and should follow the counsel of Paul...

1Corinthians 5:9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin.

1Corinthians 5:10 But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that.

1Corinthians 5:11 What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian [fn] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.

1Corinthians 5:12 It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways.

1Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

While I bear no ill towards those outside the Kingdom who are mired in sin... and have no trouble associating with them... I have little tolerance for apostasy forwarded by those who claim to follow Jesus.

Biblically, there is absolutely no congruity between godliness and the practice of unrepentant homosexuality...

I can assure you that I would say to their faces anything that I have posted here...

Regards,

David Hardy

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 8:38-39)

@Gay Christian: One of my favorite verses for the believer in Christ. By your "handle" I would infer you are a person with a homosexual orientation. I do not know if you are celibate or not. If you are a celibate out of love and obedience for Christ you have all the assurance those verses intend - all other things being equal. If you are a non-celibate homosexual then I would refer you to I Cor. 6:9
"9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

David posted -

"1Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching"

Is that right "slave traders" is a sin? Well then, I think the "Bible Belt" needs to provide an explanation how so many in South Carolina could overlook that "slave traders" is a sin, build an economy on slavery and start a Civil War and kill other Christians. Yet, the "Bible Belt" Christians today are at the front condeming "homosexuality." Until they provide an explanation for their past error about "slavery", their condemnation of "homosexuality" should be ignored.

Thanks for sharing, Dan. I'm sure you mean well. But I'll pass on the debate. Peace, love, and forgiveness to you.

David posted -

Posted By: Mack | November 19, 2009 5:39 PM

Mack...

I've never owned slaves, nor traded in the slave market... I trace my heritage to both the Mayflower and the Narragansett people...

Perhaps, I should ask you why you stole the land of by forefathers...

@Gay Christian: "Thanks for sharing, Dan. I'm sure you mean well. But I'll pass on the debate. Peace, love, and forgiveness to you." Don't think I said anything about a debate. And you forgave me? For what, may I ask? And I return the peace and love to you to.

A great biblical love story --- guess this is open to interpretation, too. But, however one chooses to interpret these passages, no one can deny that the love between David and Jonathan was a phenominal, deeply passionate love.

“When David had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. Saul took him that day and would not let him return to his father’s house. Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that he was wearing, and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his belt.” (1 Samuel 18:1-4)

“David rose from beside the stone heap and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. He bowed three times and they kissed each other and wept with each other; David wept the more. Then Jonathan said to David, ‘Go in peace, since both of us have sworn in the name of the Lord, saying, “The Lord shall be between me and you, and between my descendants and your descendants, forever.” ’ He got up and left; and Jonathan went into the city.” (1 Samuel 20:41-42)

“Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely!
In life and in death they were not divided;
they were swifter than eagles,
they were stronger than lions.
How the mighty have fallen in the midst of battle!
Jonathan lies slain upon your high places.
I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan;
Greatly beloved were you to me;
your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
(2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27)

Dan and David H.,

I'd like to refer you to the example of Jesus, someone you supposedly follow. Did he sit around during his 30+ years on earth, arguing/debating/bantering at prostitutes or other sinners? No.

He formed loving relationships first. I'd advise you to do the same. How many people do you expect to "save" with your current method of posting judgmental internet posts? Do you really expect someone to say "you know, Dan/David, you're right. I am changing my life just because of your comment." Keep dreaming. I assure you, everyone has heard every point your making, hundreds of times before. You're not saying anything new, it's just what you've been taught. You are simply putting people on the defensive and driving them further away from God.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
-Jesus

as per the slave trading convo...

are we ignoring the fact that there is still slave trading today? so perhaps you never owned slaves or traded them that you know of...but are you aware of where your cheap walmart crap comes from? Do you know whose blood & sweat have labored to bring you those things? Yes my friends, we still trade slaves...

@Lisa: "A great biblical love story --- guess this is open to interpretation, too." Re: 2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27." Guess it depends on what kind of love you are inferring from the text. God forebade homosexual relationships (Lev. 18: 22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." This is a good example of two rules of interpretation: 1."Interpret the unclear passages by the clear ones. A favorite ploy of the cults is to choose a difficult passage and build their novel doctrines on it. 2.Always interpret the incidental passage by the systematic teachings of that topic; consider all the passages dealing with the topic."
If the OT prohibits homosexuality, and David was a man after God's own heart, then 2 Samuel 1:23,26-27 must not refer to a sexual relationship, but probably a brotherly love. Guys can have a deep brotherly love for each other without it being sexual.

Posted By: Lisa Robbins | November 19, 2009 7:54 PM

Lisa...

The fact that David loved Jonathan is without doubt... As is the fact that their relationship was not a sexual one...

For if their relationship had been... God would have been a liar... And Jesus would have been a fraud...

Acts 13:22 But God removed him from the kingship and replaced him with David, a man about whom God said, `David son of Jesse is a man after my own heart, for he will do everything I want him to.'

Acts 13:23 "And it is one of King David's descendants, Jesus, who is God's promised Savior of Israel!

David was a man after God's own heart and if David had been an unrepentant homosexual, that would have indicated that God approved of homosexual relationships...

So God would not only have been a liar... He would have been a hypocrite too by including this in the law...

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

And God would have not only been a liar and a hypocrite... God would have been guilty of murder too, by including this, in order to hide his hypocrisy...

Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

So God would then be the biggest closet case in the universe...

BUT!!!... You may say... David committed ADULTERY and MURDER!!!... Does that mean that God approved of that????

Read the Book.... All the details are found here...

2Samuel Chapter 12

Dan and David H.,

I'd like to refer you to the example of Jesus, someone you supposedly follow. Did he sit around during his 30+ years on earth, arguing/debating/bantering at prostitutes or other sinners? No.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
-Jesus

Posted By: Jesus-Follower | November 19, 2009 10:47 PM

Follower...

Please note that we are participating in a discussion within the confines of a Christian website... This is not a street corner and I am not speaking/blogging with a group of people who are completely unfamiliar with the Bible...

You yourself pose as a follower of Jesus…. Do you then say that by answering you I am arguing/debating/bantering with a prostitute or an outsider?

For someone to find their way to this site and then be offended by biblical apologetics would be the epitome of terminal naiveté... I would liken it to someone being miffed because there was not an open bar in the foyer of the meetinghouse...

I bid you to peruse my postings and please point out to me where I have initiated any kind of attack on anyone here…

You appear to have difficulty separating love from enabling… Enabling is not love… It is lying…

Jesus did not say to the woman at the well… “Go… and continue your life of sin”… He in fact said quite the opposite… John 8:11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." .. Now Jesus did not condemn the woman to a death by stoning, however, he did condemn her lifestyle…

I do not plan on, nor am I able to save anyone… I am but a field hand sowing the seed of God’s word… You are free to ignore my words, however, you ignore the word of God at your peril…

I can assure you that if the word of God puts people on the defensive, their problem is not with me… It is this…

John 3:18 "There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God.

John 3:19 Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

John 3:20 They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished.

John 3:21 But those who do what is right come to the light gladly, so everyone can see that they are doing what God wants."

as per the slave trading convo...

Posted By: this is so jr high | November 19, 2009 10:51 PM

Jr…

Please provide proof of your accusations of slave labor providing goods to the American people… Lest your accusations be shown to be nothing more than adolescent angst verbalized through vociferous factoidal conjecture…

Thank you in advance…

Oh and please leave my country, you are probably one of that long line of illegal aliens who started coming here in 1492...

DH: "This is not a street corner and I am not speaking/blogging with a group of people who are completely unfamiliar with the Bible...

You yourself pose as a follower of Jesus…. Do you then say that by answering you I am arguing/debating/bantering with a prostitute or an outsider?

I bid you to peruse my postings and please point out to me where I have initiated any kind of attack on anyone here…"
Well said! I've posted this before, but it's so good I'll send it again for all who like sacred music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tc9HRxHGgY

Re- read Jonathan and David's love story as posted above... and insert the name "Jennifer" for "Jonathan". I don't think there would be any doubt whatsoever what their relationship was about. And the fact that God considered David a man after His own heart only shows that a man's heart is more important to Him than if he has lived a perfect life.

There were many prohibitions in Leviticus. You cannot just choose one and hang your hat on that. If that was the case, a man ought not even touch his wife during her period, we should stone disobedient children, we should not eat certain things, or get heart valve replacement surgery (it's made from a pig's valve), or play football (made with pigskin). But that is hardly the reason for my post.

The law taught us how much we are in need of grace and personal forgiveness... Even Jesus scolded the Pharisees that they had neglected the MORE IMPORTANT matters of of the law - justice, mercy, and faithfulness. (Mark 23:23 in which Jesus was quoting the prophet, Micah 6:8 in which these qualities were more important than sacrifices...)

I agree verses need to be interpreted in their context, but also in their culture and understanding that the worldview we have now is not the same as it was 2500-5000 years ago. So like Jesus says, you go deeper, to the heart, to the reason He came to begin with! LOVE.

We know that we will one day be judged in the same manner in which we have judged. What a scary thought. That should caution all of us to speak our truth in love, with respect for those that see it in a different light, with a different interpretation of the meaning of the Word.

I am a Cedarville alumni, attended Grace Theological Seminary, am married and have 5 grown daughters. I am a supporter of the Cedarville Out Group and am so very, very proud of the amazing examples these men and women have been to the testament and heart of the gospel! They have NOT neglected the more important matters!

@Lisa: And so Lisa if you want to make a exception to Lev. 18:22 and say it's okay now for homosexual behavior,b/c God has changed His mind; then let's also make exceptions for the other 17 or so prohibitions in Lev. 18. Okay? Did God change His mind about these prohibitions too?
6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.

13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.

14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.

16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.

21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
And then, of course, maybe Paul didn't get the memo that God had changed His mind when he wrote (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, btw) in Rom. 1:26-27 "26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." Or maybe Paul still didn't realize that Heaven's HR had changed the policy about ss relationships when he wrote in I Cor.6:9 "9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders..." or I Tim. 1:10 "10and (A)immoral men and (B)homosexuals and (C)kidnappers and (D)liars and (E)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (F)sound teaching,..."
What interpretive principles are you using to make such apparently irrational decisions about such an important issue?
And with all due respect, this blog is about a college trying to meet the spiritual needs of their students struggling with same sex attraction - and not about other OT laws (such as the one you mentioned). The issue is not how should we apply the OT laws, but what does the bible say about homosexual behavior. Rom. 3:4 "...let God be found true, though every man be found (E)a liar,..."

Re- read Jonathan and David's love story as posted above... and insert the name "Jennifer" for "Jonathan". I don't think there would be any doubt whatsoever what their relationship was about.

Posted By: Lisa Robbins | November 20, 2009 6:53 PM

OK Lisa...

Let's give it a go...

2Samuel 1:23 How beloved and gracious were Saul and Jennifer/Jonathan! They were together in life and in death. They were swifter than eagles; they were stronger than lions.

2Samuel 1:24 O women of Israel, weep for Saul, for he dressed you in fine clothing and gold ornaments.

2Samuel 1:25 How the mighty heroes have fallen in battle! Jennifer/Jonathan lies dead upon the hills.

2Samuel 1:26 How I weep for you, my brother Jennifer/Jonathan! Oh, how much I loved you! And your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women!

2Samuel 1:27 How the mighty heroes have fallen! Stripped of their weapons, they lie dead.

Actually Lisa... Looking at it your way, it looks more like Saul and Jennifer were an item in verse 23 "How beloved and gracious were Saul and Jennifer! They were together in life and in death. They were swifter than eagles; they were stronger than lions."

And in verse 26 it just sounds wierd "Jennifer! Oh, how much I loved you! And your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women!"

You then go on to say this Lisa...

"And the fact that God considered David a man after His own heart only shows that a man's heart is more important to Him than if he has lived a perfect life."

No human has ever lived a perfect life... So your premise is moot...

Also, as much as God loves all of us... If we reject him through unrepentant rebellion we are cut off... Much like God did with Saul...

1Samuel 15:26 But Samuel replied, "I will not return with you! Since you have rejected the LORD's command, he has rejected you from being the king of Israel."

And Solomon...

1Kings 11:9 The LORD was very angry with Solomon, for his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice.

1Kings 11:10 He had warned Solomon specifically about worshiping other gods, but Solomon did not listen to the LORD's command.

1Kings 11:11 So now the LORD said to him, "Since you have not kept my covenant and have disobeyed my laws, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your servants.

If God allowed David to be a practicing homo/bisexual, yet did not also overlook the rebellious acts of both Saul and Solomon... God would be a respecter of persons and therefore a liar and a fraud...

Leviticus 19:15 "You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.

So your attempts to make David out to be a homo/bisexual do not hold any water whatsoever...

Posted By: Lisa Robbins | November 20, 2009 6:53 PM

Lisa...

You do realize that you have both judged those of us who hold to the fact that the Bible irrevocably condemns the practice of homosexuality and have, by your own testimony, indicted yourself by demonstrating twords us, the exact same attitude that you condemn us for not having... One of having "neglected the more important matters!"

To quote you once again... "What a scary thought."

Luke 19:22 "He said to him, 'I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant!

It's wikipedia, but, it's also true.... check out the sources and the original text if you don't believe. Email your bible professors or something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_jonathan#Homoeroticism

Posted By: Jade McKenzie | November 20, 2009 9:56 PM

Jade...

You have a free-will choice to believe wikipedia, rather than the Bible....

You also have the free-will to elevate the conjectural postulations of men who are attempting to deny the authority of the Bible and empty the cross of it's power...

That does not even begin to make the lies, you choose to believe about David and Jonathan into the truth...

@David - What I did say that was the least bit judgmental? I never said that how you believe was wrong or that you were not were a follower of Christ. Not once. I said that what was important to Jesus was justice, loving mercy, and faithfulness. I disagree with you on this issue and I believe its a matter of interpretation of the Word. If you saw anything else in my posts other than being a supporter of GLBT issues and the values that I believe Jesus taught us, than that was coming from within YOU, NOT from me.

I am not your judge, you certainly are not mine. I am very much aware of my own imperfections before my Maker, and often am guilty of not living up to those values that I cherish and I belive Jesus came to teach us. God knows my heart, good and bad. That's why there's grace (i.e. undeserved mercy!)

And that's why there is love - it covers a multitude of sin. Anger never gets any of us very far.... and it never draws someone to Christ. As Kris Kristofferson would say, "this fightin' might feel righteous, but its wrong!"

God bless.

@Jade: "It's wikipedia, but, it's also true.... check out the sources and the original text if you don't believe..."
I checked it out, Jade, and it gave two opposing views: both the liberal/progressive and the traditionalist viewpoints. The so-called progressive scholars often qualify their statements with phrases like "the language may indicate", or the "wording normally used for...". The two traditionalist scholars mentioned include Robert Gagnon and the Assyriologist Markus Zehnder. No lightweight, these. Wikipedia doesn't endorse either. But even so, scholars are secondary sources and so are not authoritative. Only God's word is.

Posted By: Lisa Robbins | November 20, 2009 10:24 PM

Lisa...

Your strategic use of ALL CAPS in both of your postings speaks volumes as to your intent to inflect your obvious disagreement with the irrefutable biblical position, that the unrepentant practice of homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God…

To put it politely…. In your zeal to defend Cedarville Out, you failed to envelop me with your “love“… With your efforts to “speak our truth in love, with respect for those that see it in a different light, with a different interpretation of the meaning of the Word.”

The differences in opinion between you and I, regarding the biblical interpretations of the practice of homosexuality are as great as the differences between Heaven and Hell…

1Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

1Corinthians 6:10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers--none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.

1Corinthians 6:11 There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.

You will note that in verse 11 it plainly says… “There was a time when some of you were just like that, ”… Were, is past tense…. If practicing homosexuals are scratched off of the above list… The list is moot…

Should you require more examples… The Bible is filled with them….

Regards,

David Hardy

@Lisa: This is not meant to be a put down to you, but when I hear the homosexual proponents spin their estoeric interpretations I think of the old joke about a woman who came home and found her husband in the arms of another woman. She was shocked, needless to say. But he was so confident of his own persuasive abiblities, he said to her: "Who are you going to believe? Me or your eyes." Who are you going to believe, Lisa, God's word in which His character is clearly revealed or what some liberal/progressive scholar tells you. Here are some verses about the trustworthiness of God's word. You probably already know them:
* II Pet. 1:16-21 - We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."[a] 18We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
*II Tim. 3:16,17 - 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
*Ps. 119:9,11 - 9 How can a young man keep his way pure?
By living according to your word.
10 I seek you with all my heart;
do not let me stray from your commands.

11 I have hidden your word in my heart
that I might not sin against you.
*Ps. 19:7-11 - 7 The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.

9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The ordinances of the LORD are sure
and altogether righteous.

10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the comb.

11 By them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

*Is. 55: 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

*Matt. 4:4 - 4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'[a]"

David,

I just came across another website that deals specifically w/ forced child labor:
www.freethechildren.com

you can read history of child labor & whatnot.

grace & peace to you!

David,

I just came across another website that deals specifically w/ forced child labor:
www.freethechildren.com

you can read history of child labor & whatnot.

grace & peace to you!

Posted By: this is so jr high | November 21, 2009 3:41 PM

Jr...

From all appearances Free The Children appears to be a very worthy cause. If the exploitation of children in foreign countries is a cause that you feel compelled to get involved in, they might be a good place to exercise that desire.

However.. While the exploitation of children is a tragedy, it cannot be used as a justification for the practice of homosexuality.

Paul said this…

Romans 3:5 "But," some say, "our sins serve a good purpose, for people will see God's goodness when he declares us sinners to be innocent. Isn't it unfair, then, for God to punish us?" (That is actually the way some people talk.)

Romans 3:6 Of course not! If God is not just, how is he qualified to judge the world?

Romans 3:7 "But," some might still argue, "how can God judge and condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?"

Romans 3:8 If you follow that kind of thinking, however, you might as well say that the more we sin the better it is! Those who say such things deserve to be condemned, yet some slander me by saying this is what I preach!

Romans 6:15 So since God's grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not!

Romans 6:16 Don't you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master? You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval.

Romans 6:17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you.

Romans 6:18 Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness.

Romans 6:19 I speak this way, using the illustration of slaves and masters, because it is easy to understand. Before, you let yourselves be slaves of impurity and lawlessness. Now you must choose to be slaves of righteousness so that you will become holy.

David,

I did not intend to support homosexuality by bringing up child slave labor. I only wanted to address an issue brought up in the discussion...glad to see that you checked it out tho!

David,

I did not intend to support homosexuality by bringing up child slave labor. I only wanted to address an issue brought up in the discussion...glad to see that you checked it out tho!

Posted By: this is so jr high | November 21, 2009 6:30 PM

Jr....

While I do agree that there are indeed many things that you or I might consider to be unfair in the world, we must remember the topic of this particular discussion...

By virtue of the topic at hand, all illustrations need to reflect back to that particular topic, else wise they are nothing more than attempts at diverting attention from the topic...

So if you had no purpose that was prompted by your intent to illustrate some portion of the topic at hand, infusing a gratuitous discussion of child exploitation amounts to nothing more than an intentional obfuscation…

Or sophomoric...

Mack...

I've never owned slaves, nor traded in the slave market... I trace my heritage to both the Mayflower and the Narragansett people...

Perhaps, I should ask you why you stole the land of by forefathers...

Posted By: David Hardy | November 19, 2009 6:29 PM

@David: I conclude from your response that the "Bible Belt" Christians don't have an answer, so you resort to a personal attack, "Perhaps, I should ask you why you stole the land of by forefathers..." Because you don't have an answer, your understanding of scripture on homosexuality should be rejected.

"Jr....
While I do agree that there are indeed many things that you or I might consider to be unfair in the world, we must remember the topic of this particular discussion...
By virtue of the topic at hand, all illustrations need to reflect back to that particular topic, else wise they are nothing more than attempts at diverting attention from the topic...
So if you had no purpose that was prompted by your intent to illustrate some portion of the topic at hand, infusing a gratuitous discussion of child exploitation amounts to nothing more than an intentional obfuscation…
Or sophomoric...

David,
nope, not trying to deflect from the topic at hand. I simply care too much about loving all of Jesus' body and hate to see him suffering. When such suffering can be alleviated by knowledge which destroys apathy, it would seem very dead & inhumane to not speak up.

and David, I'm glad you love your thesaurus (hopefully this indicates that you read a lot), but please, I don't want to be patronized. I'm more your peer than a "sophmoric" foolish child. Please just allow what you've read to sink in for a min before you thoughtlessly dismiss the points brought up in this discussion.

grace & peace to you brother

Posted By: Mack | November 22, 2009 12:50 PM

Mack...

Just in case it has escaped your notice.. The Civil War has been over for a few years...

It is rather difficult to ask someone who has been dead for the better part of 100 years or more, just why they didn't appreciate the need to liberate the slaves in order to prove the veracity of the biblical sanctions against the practice of homosexuality...

That said...

In what way did I perpetrate an ad hominem attack against you?

That said...

You are free to disregard any and everything I say...

However... You ignore the word of God at your eternal peril...

grace & peace to you brother

Posted By: this is so jr high | November 22, 2009 1:32 PM

Jr...

You will have to excuse me for a moment... I'm a little verklempt... What with your most moving sentiments about suffering and all...
.
.
{Insert Jeopardy theme music here}
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
There!... I believe that I am composed enough to continue...

OK... Flag on the play...

For you to infuse a completely unrelated subject, no matter how important that subject is, into a discussion is completely gratuitous...

Your insistence on attempting to overshadow the topic of discussion with your alleged disquiet over all of the suffering in the world only serves to prove that you are indeed a... ""sophmoric[sic]" foolish child."... At least in the area of staying on task and focused on the subject at hand...

As for your accusation that I "thoughtlessly dismiss the points brought up in this discussion," I am once again compelled to throw down the bogus claim flag...

Save for politely attempting to address both Mack and yourself , as well as a few others, in regards to off topic obfuscation red herrings, I have worked diligently to confine my remarks to addressing the fact that while the practice of unrepentant homosexuality is irrevocably condemned in the Bible, as believers we can and should be kind to all who are outside of the Kingdom of God… While also understanding that the practice of homosexuality has absolutely no place in the life of any believer in Jesus…

Peace...

David Hardy

P.S.... I do not love any thesaurus… They are extinct... Besides they probably wouldn't make a good pet anyhow...

@Mack: "Is that right "slave traders" is a sin? Well then, I think the "Bible Belt" needs to provide an explanation how so many in South Carolina could overlook that "slave traders" is a sin, build an economy on slavery and start a Civil War and kill other Christians. Yet, the "Bible Belt" Christians today are at the front condeming "homosexuality." Until they provide an explanation for their past error about "slavery", their condemnation of "homosexuality" should be ignored."

Posted By: Mack | November 19, 2009 5:39 PM

>You can't explain the indefensible. Incidentally, several years ago the Southern Baptist Church did apologize publically for their church's part in the support and propogation of slavery. Is that good enough for you? Will you listen to them now about the scriptural prohibitions about homosexual behavior?
>And how about those whose origins were from the North and whose ancestors were abolitionists? Will you listen to them?
>My opinion is that you should listen to the word of God and obey it.

And the word of God is plain:
*Rom. 1:26,27 - "...their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
*I Cor. 6:9,10 - 9Or (K)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (L)inherit the kingdom of God? (M)Do not be deceived; (N)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (O)inherit the kingdom of God.

11(P)Such were some of you; but you were (Q)washed, but you were (R)sanctified, but you were (S)justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

*I Tim. 1:9,10 - 8But we know that (Y)the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

9realizing the fact that (Z)law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (AA)rebellious, for the (AB)ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (AC)profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

10and (AD)immoral men and (AE)homosexuals and (AF)kidnappers and (AG)liars and (AH)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (AI)sound teaching,

11according to (AJ)the glorious gospel of (AK)the blessed God, with which I have been (AL)entrusted.

In each passage noted above homosexual behavior is condemned - along with other sins. So if we white-out the word "homosexual" from those verses, shouldn't we white out those other sins, too. Would that be satisfactory to you?

Addendum: I wrote the above post.

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