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February 22, 2010

Gay Marriage Leads D.C. Archbishop to End Foster Care Program

Catholic Charities has given its caseload of 43 children, 35 foster families, and 7 staff members to a Maryland-based family-care agency so as not to disrupt client care.

The other shoe has dropped here in Washington, D.C., in a long conflict between the local Catholic diocese and the District of Columbia.

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After warning for months that the District's pending same-sex marriage law — slated to go into effect March 2 — put its 80-year-old foster care program in jeopardy, the Archdiocese of Washington formally ended its program February 1.

It is the third Catholic diocese in the country to do so. The archdioceses of San Francisco and Boston stopped their adoption programs in 2006 after their respective states legalized gay marriage (California has since repealed its law) and made it clear that local Catholic Charities affiliates would have to work with homosexual couples.

The District's law would obligate all outside contractors working with the city to recognize gay couples by giving spousal benefits to such couples and allowing them to adopt available children. The Archdiocese of Washington refused to do this. Its Catholic Charities affiliate has turned over its caseload of 43 children with 35 foster families — along with 7 staff members — to Bethesda, Maryland-based National Center for Children and Families so as not to disrupt client care.

The foster care and adoption programs were among the 63 social service programs that the District paid Catholic Charities about $22.5 million to run. Of that amount, $2 million went to the foster care program. Because of the large amounts of money involved, it is highly unlikely that Catholic parishioners could raise enough funds to make up the difference.

When Donald Wuerl became the archbishop of Washington in 2006, many of us thought his main battle would be dealing with pro-choice Catholic politicians. Instead, his Rubicon has proved to be the D.C. marriage issue, a battle I am guessing he did not anticipate. He is now caught between the proverbial devil and the deep blue sea. The Vatican is adamant against allowing gay couples to adopt. As for the District, one of the most liberal areas in the country, it is not surprising that, with a Democrat in the White House, local gay activists began pushing for the right to legally marry.

When the D.C. city council passed a bill allowing gay marriage in fall 2009, the archdiocese served notice that the bill did not contain a meaningful religious exemption for contractors who believe marriage is solely between a man and a woman. A storm of invective ensued, mostly from politicians and activists who blamed Catholics for manipulating the political process. Two hundred local clergy, including the local Episcopal bishop, banned together to denounce the archdiocese. Most of the local media trashed Archbishop Wuerl for his stand.

Wuerl and his bishops fought back, insisting they were not abandoning the city's poor nor its children by threatening to pull out of its social service programs. They pointed out the city had changed the rules on the ground, making them ineligible for contracts, grants, and licenses for programs ranging from immigration services to foster care.

The outlook for religious organizations involved in charity work is not good. The Salvation Army lost $3.5 million in social service contracts with the city of San Francisco because it would not provide health benefits to gay employees' partners. The Boy Scouts are not allowed to meet in government-owned buildings because of its stance on gay Scout leaders. A spokesman for a D.C. Catholic Charities affiliate told me that coupled gays are employed among its 850-member work force, so that it's a matter of time — after March 2 — before someone threatens a lawsuit unless his or her gay partner gets health insurance. The juggernaut is here.

There is much strong sentiment on this issue. When I wrote a front-page piece on the issue last week, I got 57 comments off the bat, the majority of which criticized Catholics. An anonymous local Catholic blogger set out the issue quite clearly by saying that the question is not if, but when the archdiocese is going to end up in court over this.

Catholic dioceses around the country undoubtedly are watching what happens in Washington. The city council has rammed through the legislation — which it refused to put to popular vote — even though they knew this would tie up the more conservative religious groups. Meanwhile, most observers in D.C. agree that Archbishop Wuerl was left with no morally acceptable choice but to withdraw the foster care and adoption programs, which are on the front lines of this debate. Expect him to eventually pull out of the other $20.5 million worth of contracts as well.

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Comments

Just another example of what can happen when government goes against common sense and the will of the people. The Catholic Church is acting on principle. Finally, someone is drawing a line and saying enough is enough. Of course, they will be excoriated by the press and other liberal institutions who really aren't interested in being fair to the Catholic Church.

The Catholic position is just pathetic. The base their condescendingly slanderous position on "homosexuals" is conjured up from their archaic "Natural Law," which dates back to Aristotle. Slavery is "natural," but Gay people aren't. Give me a break. Real "Natural Law" really boils down to: If it's not forbidden by the laws of physics, it's mandatory. The morality you bring to that determines the morality you extract from it. And the morality you should bring to that is the Golden Rule.

If the church takes funds from a government that does not discriminate against gay citizens, then the church cannot discriminate against gay citizens. If the church wishes to continue to discriminate against gay citizens, then the church cannot take government funds. Seems rather straightforward.

I'm so glad a non-discriminating organization has chosen to take care of these children. At least we can have better role models for children than the close-minded Church leaders who've shown a pattern of ignoring their past mistakes (abuse and discrimination, anyone??)

I see the anti religionists are out in force on this thread.

Why should the Catholic Church be force to adopt to gays or even employ them. They are a private group and the gay lobby should start their own group if that is what they want.

Of course that is not the agenda, it is militant pro homosexual advocacy that is what they want. They want people to accept that their perversion as normal even though the majority of Americans have voted numerous times they think it is not normal.

Decent Americans know that the sexual perversion so prevalent in American society today is one of the leading causes of the downfall, the degradation of our society, of our country. Why then do we continue to tolerate the immersion of our young people in it? Why do we continue to tolerate it in our society and among our elected? Why do we continue to be silent as the homosexual agenda of forced acceptance of unhealthy sexual perversion is shoved down our throats?

This story is interesting because the Catholic Church has said discrimination against gay people in the workplace, concerning health benefits and credit is unjust and even sinful - going back to the Bishops statements in the mid- 1970s. How does that square with not giving a gay employee's partner health benefits?

And oddly enough some of the most pro-gay areas of the country are heavily Catholic. In fact, a recent poll showed Catholic support in the U.S. for gay marriage was around 54% - Protestant support was only 44%.

i find it honestly pathetic that catholic churches have decided to close their foster programs because of gay marriage. the idea of throwing away the lives of children becuase you don't agree with homsexuality is not just ignorant but hurtful. not for gay people but the children, they deserve more than to be tossed away becasue a church is unable to deal with it. god shall judge them i promise you that

Actually I'm pretty sure their views are based on the Bible. Which predates Aristole. I'm not Catholic but I'll bet they have done much more for children than anyone spewing hatred on this blog. The Bible is very plain on the fact that homosexuality is a sexual sin, even more so because it is a perversion of a sexual sin. The Bible tells us to treat everyone with love and respect. That is why Christians must tell the truth, which is we cannot allow our desires to rule over us.

Actually what is ignorant is sticking your head in the sand and saying that gay couples lifestyles choices are compatible with bringing up children. Adam and Steve do not take the place of a nurturing mother/father and visa versa.

Homosexuals have a decreased life expectancy and are ten times more likely to contract a disease than heterosexuals.Homosexual practitioners were proportionately more apt to sexually abuse foster or adoptive children according to recent study of Illinois Child Services(1997-2002).
Traditional child-placement policies were therefore based on assumptions that children fostered by those who engaged in homosexuality would be more apt to be sexually molested, socially isolated, and engage in homosexuality themselves (Bigner & Bozett, 1989; Golombok & Tasker, 1996).
It seems that their research was correct and giving homosexuals our children in foster homes and adoptions should be re-examined.

I really don't see what the problem is supposed to be: The city says contractors cannot discriminate against gay people; the Catholic church says it believes it has to, and so passes on its contract work to someone willing to do it under the new rules. Everybody wins!

@ sonlil80: Aristotle was born in 384 B.C., as in BEFORE CHRIST. So how does the Bible pre-date Aristotle when Jesus wasn't even born yet?

It makes you wonder the value of a "Christian education".

Jesus Christ in Christianity is God. God through his prophets wrote the Old Testament. The Old Testament (part of the Bible) predates Aristotle.

It makes you wonder about the value of secular education.

Yo razorfin, genius.....when do ya think the ancient oral traditions started that resulted in the OLD TESTAMENT? Hint: well BEFORE Aritotle. Where did you get YOUR education?

These comments just prove what most fair-minded, thinking people realize: write something that's even mildly critical of gay marriage or gay adoption and you'll get an avalanche of hateful blowback. Even on a Christian website. Having a civil, intelligent conversation thus becomes impossible.

This post really distorts what is going on here. The citizens of DC, through their elected representatives, voted to legalize gay marriage. It wasn't "rammed through." It was voted on in the normal course after extensive and vigorous debate. The DC election board twice held that, under DC's home charter (like a state's constitution) a referendum could not be used to address a civil rights issue. Opponents of the bill filed suit to block approval of the bill but the DC Superior Court upheld the election board's decision. This is how a constitutional democracy works. A long time ago the Christian Right objected to the so-called "tyranny of unelected judges." Then, once elected judges did something they disliked, they objected to the elected judges. Then, when the legislators do something they don't like, they become enraged that they "refused to put [it] to a popoular vote" as if "popular vote" was actually how our constitutional republic works. Sorry, but we elect representatives who pass legislation. We don't operate by public referenda except in very limited circumstances.

The bill contains safeguards so that the Catholic church and other opponents are not required to perform or recognize those gay marriages. DC, like any other state or locality, has the right to decide how its money is spent. If the elected representatives of DC decide that they don't want to give their tax dollars to an institution that discriminates in the provision of benefits and services to a part of its citizenry, by what legal principle should they be denied that right?

Catholic Charities is NOT using its own money to provide adoption and foster care services. It is TAKING DC's money to provide services for DC residents. The same is true for the Salvation Army whose predicament the post decries. And, something similar is essentially true for the Boy Scouts. Each of these groups continues to have the right to preach/teach what it wants, to refuse to sanctify relationships to which it objects, and to refuse to hire or give benefits to whoever it wants. What they CAN'T do, is expect elected governments to give them money, contracts, or meeting space.

I want to commend the Catholic Church and it's leaders for standing on Biblical morality. By the way, Old Testament prohibitions of homosexuality go back to Moses (about 1400 BC), therefore their stand should be supported by all Christians and Jews. Shame on the religious leaders who criticized rather than supporting them on this issue. This issue is a concern of all conservative Christian groups trying to provide adoption and/or foster care. Even if a group does not take any government money, they are still required to work within the laws governing such services, so even not taking any government monies will not guarantee freedom to follow religious beliefs in the long run. We who believe God's Word need to stand together with one another on these moral issues, even if we disagree on theological and doctrinal interpretations. The true losers were not the Catholic Church, the true losers were the children.

About the "golden rule"--remember that Christ said:

Mat 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

Mat 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.

Mat 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

The first and foremost is to love God--not to love your neighbor as yourself. If by loving your neighbor as yourself you are acting against loving God then you are breaking the most important commandment. Loving God comes first.

This is how we are to love God...

Jhn 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command.

Since Jesus is God and therefore wrote the scripture through the Apostles and the prophets all scripture that calls homosexuality a sin thereby calls all those who practice that sin disobedient to Christ. Those who are disobedient to Christ therefore are not acting in love. They are breaking the first, most important commandment.

Those who refuse to acknowledge any other scripture except the words of Christ should realize that Christ Himself never penned one word of His ministry. It was left to secondary and even tertiary sources to do that. By accepting the words of Christ in the Bible one must also accept that truth can and did come from those designated by God to speak the truth for Him. In so doing, it must then be acknowledged that this is also possible with the rest of scripture for Old and New Testaments.

For those who call quoting scripture idolizing the Bible--Christ Himself often quoted scripture--by such reasoning He idolized scripture as well and by his actions taught is disciples to act likewise.

Being "Gay" is a lifestyle choice.(Never been proven otherwise) We just hide it under the guise of "Freedom". We want to be PC as not to offend anyone. Choices with no consequences seems to be the order of the day. Why not legalize it and free our conscience of any guilt, while we are at it....... let's punish those who do go work on behalf of those who have made a mistake... and let's call them names to and tell them how insensitive they are. You folks can't have it both ways.
In the end you lose.

Christian Lawyer wrote: "The citizens of DC, through their elected representatives, voted to legalize gay marriage." That's absolute hogwash. Whenever marriage redefinition has been put to a popular vote (and it NEVER has in DC), even in the most liberal of states, it has been DEFEATED. Christian Lawyer is doubling down on the distortions she accuses other of.

It's uncontroversial outside of "conservative" religious circles that the "homosexual" clobber verses are about idolatrous practices, such as in fertility cults, and not about sexual orientations. They show the power of idolatry to warp one's sexuality and even one's love of one's child...such as sacrificing one's child to Moloch. Sexual orientations are not caused by idolatry, but idolatry can cause one to be untrue to one's self.

The religious right is biblio-idolatrously abusing the context of the Bible by carefully ignoring it, from carefully finding out what it even is. They're even using "homosexual" Bibles, for it's own greedy purposes. Never mind that an obsolete science theory hardly should be used in Bible translations.

If religious "conservatives" can justify discrimination with such disgusting tactics, they can quash competition for church leadership positions by GLBT people...they can create hostile environments to drive GLBT people out of one's neighborhoods in order to take snatch up businesses, business and properties etc. Keep GLBT people from running for public office. Make GLBT people vulnerable to blackmailing tactics...in other words, bring back the Jim Crow, "Massive Resistance" tactics of another era to abuse and control a different group of people today, for the same purposes. Shameless greed and scapegoating hardly demonstrate the Golden Rule.

Christ quoted the Torah, but did Christ abuse the Torah as religious conservatives do? I doubt it...so why should Christians condone the abuse of clobber verses ripped out from well known biblical contexts and repurposed for greed and unearned power? Why is the religious right distracting people from thinking about idolatry, from thinking about greed and discrimination, from thinking about justice for all instead of privilege for some? Because, that's what "white" conservative Evangelicals have usually done in the past, and from which they obviously haven't repented...just found a different group with which to abuse and scapegoat for their self righteous fun and their unearned profit.

Anyone interested in actual evidence on the issue of gay adoption may be interested to read this order in an adoption case out of Florida in late 2008. A gay foster parent petitioned to adopt the two boys he had been fostering for years. Florida's Dept. of Children and Families opposed the adoption. The trial court judge heard testimony from experts proffered by both sides over a four-day trial. In a lengthy, but non-legalese opinion, she granted the adpotion and found Florida's ban on gay adoption unconstitutional because the ban harmed the children it was meant to protect. The opinion sets out in great detail all of the expert testimony proffered by both sides, including extensive references to all the supporting studies on which the various experts relied. The appellate court heard oral argument on the matter last summer but has not ruled yet. Here's the trial court's order.

http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file16_37906.pdf

Government by referenda is essentially chaos. It fundamentally violates the system established by the Founding Fathers. Americans have fought and died for the principles of representative democracy. The vote by the citizen-elected DC City Council was 11-2. It wasn't even close. If the DC residents don't like how their duly elected representatives voted, they can vote them out the next time. That's how representative democracy works. The representatives speak for the people. One may not like how they speak, but their decisions do not become illegitimate merely because some people oppose them.

City law bans the use of referenda on any matter covered by DC's Human Rights Act, which bans discrimination on the basis of race, color, RELIGION, and a bunch of other things, including sexual orientation. So, the law that was used to deny a public referendum on gay marriage is the same law that prohibits the use of a public referendum to deprive evangelicals of their rights. Conservative evangelicals, a microscopic minority in DC, might someday be thankful for that protection.

"We who believe God's Word need to stand together with one another on these moral issues, even if we disagree on theological and doctrinal interpretations. The true losers were not the Catholic Church, the true losers were the children."
---And those of us who believe God's word means something a bit different than you believe it does should take your side anyway? And as I said before, there *are* no losers in this. The Catholic Church lost nothing, really; it doesn't have to deal with the adoptions and whatever anymore. The children lose nothing; the program is still going, just under different management. The city loses nothing for the same reason.

"Since Jesus is God and therefore wrote the scripture through the Apostles and the prophets all scripture that calls homosexuality a sin thereby calls all those who practice that sin disobedient to Christ. Those who are disobedient to Christ therefore are not acting in love. They are breaking the first, most important commandment."
---I haven't been reading this particular site much, so please forgive me if this is wrong to bring up, but there are quite a lot of Christians who do not believe the Bible is inerrant. Among those who do, there are quite a few who disagree with the usual translations, interpretations, and applications of the very few passages that mention homosexuality at all.

"Being "Gay" is a lifestyle choice.(Never been proven otherwise)"
---No, if you assert that it's a "lifestyle choice" then it's on you to prove your point. But what, exactly, do you mean by "lifestyle choice" anyway, and what do you thing it means to be gay? I'm not trying to pull anything here or make a joke; it's an entirely serious question. To me, "lifestyle choices" are things like partying and doing drugs, raising a family, being active in church (or not), being promiscuous, etc. And being gay means being sexually and/or emotionally attracted to the same sex in the way that most people are attracted to the opposite sex. That may well *affect* the lifestyle choices you make, but I don't see how, other than by severely misusing the language, it could *be* a lifestyle choice in and of itself. Take me, for example: I'm gay as can be. Attracted to guys since before I even knew it was possible, and never developed any interest of that kind in women at all. Not a lifestyle choice, as I understand the phrase to mean in plain, ordinary English. However: that has greatly contributed to the fact that I've never so much as been on a date, much less had sex. That would legitimately qualify as a lifestyle, but it hardly seems to be one anybody (other than myself) would have reason to complain of.

"Christian Lawyer wrote: "The citizens of DC, through their elected representatives, voted to legalize gay marriage." That's absolute hogwash. Whenever marriage redefinition has been put to a popular vote (and it NEVER has in DC), even in the most liberal of states, it has been DEFEATED. Christian Lawyer is doubling down on the distortions she accuses other of."
---We live in a republic, also known as a representative democracy. We do not live in a direct democracy. Under the normal course of events, the general public does not vote directly on issues; it votes for government officials, who then make decisions for us. Do you want *all* issues put directly to the people, all the time? If not, why, other than the fact you believe you'd win, do you set this one apart?

In the past when private agencies and schools discriminated against minorities they were not allowed to receive government money for their work. It's the same today.

The Church thinks that it's moral view should make it exempt from bans against discrimination. Under our laws that may be true. But at the same time our laws do not permit them to receive taxpayer money to engage in such discrimination. The Church is basically saying, we are entitled to discriminate, and we want taxpayers to help us do it.

Just like with the Boy Scouts, they may be entitled to do it, but we are not required to give our tax dollars to help them do it.

Dear Gregory Peterson, you silly silly man...using research and facts to coutner the evangelicals. Remember it was Mark Noll, a professor from Wheaton College, who said "The scandal of the evangelical mind is that there is not much of an evangelical mind."

Christian Lawyer brings up a specific case that has unique circumstances. You cannot always generalize about the issue at large from such cases. There may indeed be instances when a child, considering the other options, would do better with a gay parent. Indeed, there are many cases where children have done well despite being in undesirable circumstances. Citing such cases doesn't really prove a whole lot.

As Christians I think we should strive for the highest ideals of our faith. The theme of the sanctity of the man-woman relationship is central to much of the the Old and New Testaments. Some things in the Bible are not totally clear, but the teaching about homosexuality is surely not one of them. All the spin (it's about "hospitality," etc.) is just mental gymnastics. Let's cut out this business of "your interpretation" vs "my interpretation." It's much more honest to simply say you disagree with Scripture. Having said that, using Scripture as an excuse for gay-bashing is unacceptable.

While government by referenda may not exactly be chaos I do agree it is not desirable. But the issue of marriage is central to our culture and our faith. That's one thing people SHOULD have the opportunity to vote on. Interestingly, many on the left side of the political spectrum argue vehemently against the electoral college, which is another way of avoiding direct referenda.

The question is not whether Catholic Charities of Washington has "religious freedom" to discriminate against Gay couples, but whether they are accepting public funds in the process! Gay people are taxpayers too, and I don't want my tax dollars going to organizations that discriminate against me, any more than a Catholic would want his tax dollars going toward an organization that discriminates against Catholics.

Catholic Charities of Boston went through this same situation years ago. I frankly couldn't care less if their adoption service discriminated against Gay couples or Muslim couples or whomever. Problem was, Catholic Charities of Boston were being funded by the State of Massachusetts to the tune of a million bucks per year! And they were given a choice: Either stop discriminating against Gay couples, or give up their public funding. They chose to give up the funding. Fine by me. You wanna feed at public trough, you'd better be prepared to play by the rules.

Idolatry according to the homosexual:

If scripture disagrees with what I want it equals idolatry....even if it very plainly and openly denounces it.

Idolatry to pedophiles:

If scripture disagrees with what I want it equals idolatry....even if it very plainly and openly denounces it.

Idolatry to the incestuous:

If scripture disagrees with what I want it equals idolatry....even if it very plainly and openly denounces it.

Idolatry to those practicing bestiality:

If scripture disagrees with what I want it equals idolatry....even if it very plainly and openly denounces it.

Idolatry to the polygamist:

If scripture disagrees with what I want it equals idolatry....even if it very plainly and openly denounces it.

Idolatry to the promiscuous:

If scripture disagrees with what I want it equals idolatry....even if it very plainly and openly denounces it.

Idolatry to the adulterous:

If scripture disagrees with what I want it equals idolatry....even if it very plainly and openly denounces it.

All of these groups could talk about "discrimination" in the same terms. It's not about that--it's about following God through is Word in the Bible. The Bible defines what it is to be a Christian without it we wouldn't know...it is the manual--to say that quoting it in reference to how are lives work is idolatry is like calling a mechanic an idolater if he fixes a car using the manual. The Bible defines who we are--those that deny the requirements of the Bible are, in effect, announcing that they are not really a Christian in the first place.

As far as identity--Biblically speaking Galatians speaks about identities that could be seen as unequal but have been announced equal by God--sexual orientation is never mentioned. When sexuality is mentioned it's treated as an act not an identity.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

When Christ mentions marriage it is always and only between one man and one woman. Every marriage parable He uses is only between a bride and groom not 2 brides or 2 grooms or other variations thereof. When asked about polygamy He uses the garden of Eden as the prototype for all marriage. It was one man and one woman. Homosexual marriage along with pedophilic, incestuous, or inter-species marriages are not mentioned because it is taken as a given that they are not legitimate.

After idolatry of false deities the idolatry of self is most commonly denounced in the Bible. Denying the intention of our creation to be heterosexual and therefore saying God's intention was wrong is, in essence, self-idolatry..it says man is right and God is wrong.

Yes, idolatry is an important issue. Homosexuality is a form of self-idolatry that should not be allowed.


Washington should stop discriminating against the Catholic church's beliefs. They're losing good people, good resources, a good established organization for a good cause.

" It's much more honest to simply say you disagree with Scripture."
---No, that's a lot *simpler,* but it's totally DIShonest. Disagreeing with *you* about what scripture means is not at all the same as disagreeing with scripture itself. And, by the way, if there is neither male nor female then sexual orientation becomes moot :) Remember, it's your side trying to rewrite the Bible (the Conservative Bible Project, I think it's called) to enshrine your own understanding of its meaning in such a way that all others are excluded.

According to Truthmeister's post, Natural Law states that anything which can be done should be allowed. Does this open the door to sex with minors, sex with animals, human euthanasia, torture (with consent, of course), "long term borrowing of another's assets" (stealing, for short)? Which Golden Rule are we bound by - the one that says "he who owns the gold makes the rules"?

To John: you have me confused with someone else.

To hyhybt: you need to develop your critical thinking skills, particularly those relating to objective analysis. It's clear what the Bible says about homosexual activity, though less clear about sexual orientation.

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I am in full agreement with the Catholic church on this matter, in principle.

I work for a Christian charity, that once received a government grant. However, I would never take a grant to do something, that my faith disallowed. That would be wrong!

Unlike the Catholic Church, my organisation depends almost entirely on the giving of people who believe the way we do. And, in my view, that is how all Christian charities should be funded anyway. The one who pays the piper calls the tune, and that is how it should be. So I have no quarrel with the government for determining how, by whom, and in what way its funds should be used.

My philosophy is, let those who do not agree with my moral position keep their money, and let those who stand by the values I espouse support me.

However, the Church must be warned. Yesterday it was abortion,today it is homosexuality, it will most definitely be something else tomorrow. Whatever it may be, people of principle must continue to stand by what they believe. God will supply the wherewithal to do his work, there is no question about that. The Boy Scouts can meet under a tree and still be the Boy Scouts of America.

All we need to win is for the true Church of Jesus Christ to take a definite and determined stand.

"Two hundred local clergy, including the local Episcopal bishop, banned together to denounce the archdiocese." (Be encouraged, your archbishopyness, Jesus said in Matt. 5:11-12 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.")
"Most of the local media trashed Archbishop Wuerl for his stand."
What else would you expect from those whose moral center resembles an overflowing cesspool? Let's see now...what other moral issues can we expect God to change His immutable mind on? (what? another nasty little preposition popped up at the end of my sentence? I hate it when that happens!) Maybe god will next change his mind about adultery? Or beastiality? Or maybe trans fatty acids? We shouldn't be surprised at the response of the proglibs - clergy or media though, Isaiah 5: 20 says:
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness..."
And Jeremiah 23:2 says of the unrighteous shepherds - "Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning the shepherds who are tending My people: "You have scattered My flock and driven them away, and have not attended to them; behold, I am about to attend to you for the evil of your deeds," declares the LORD." Slow train comin'.
(Pssst! BJ! Pssst! Hey, BJ - I'm no snitch, but I thought you should know, GP and CL have posted more than once on this thread. Don't tell 'em I said so, though. We'll keep this just between you and me.)

Get this straight:children are not losing. The foster care/adoption program continues, even with the same staff. Would this be such a hot discussion if the issue was something else? Like abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment? Or if, gasp, Catholics weren't the target? Someone, please provide absolute proof that people are born with homosexuality tendencies. There is no proof, just as there is no proof that it is an acquired predisposition. No one knows for sure, either way, so let's stop debating on whether gays are born that way, or made that way, whether it's a horrible sin, etc. No one can prove that they are right. By the way, Catholics have a very serious commitment to its gay members. Check papal documents and info from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (google it). The church loves and embraces its gay members, but does not condone sex outside of marriage (even for straights) and does not recongize same sex marriage. There are CAtholic ministries for gays that do not demand that they "change," but rather encourage that they live chaste lives, just as any other single Christian is encouraged to do. But Catholic teachings do not accept gay marriage or abortion, and will not accept funding for programs that force them to support those choices. My husband is a licensed mental health therapist for Catholic Charities, and the agency does not accept any government-sponsored health insurance, such as Medicare or Medicaid, which would mean that the counselors would have to encourage gay relationships or abortions, if the public-funded clients wanted that direction. HOwever, if a CC client is gay, he/she will be counseled to deal with their overall issues, but the CC counselor will not say, "Accept who you are and go for it." Likewise, if a woman has a crisis pregnancy, she will be referred to pregnancy support. On the other hand, if CC took public funds, the counselor would have to offer the pregnant woman the options for abortion. My husband's agency therefore turns down all potential clients who are publically funded. On the other hand, with private insurance clients, the CC counselors can promote pro-life, decline to support gay life, and if the clients don't like that, they can take their private insurance cards or cash payments and go elsewhere. CC loses tremendous amounts of public money because of this, but the Church has the right to not offer support for choices that opppose its teachings. So stop criticizing the DC Catholic Charities for discriminating. They stopped taking the money, they turned over the program to someone else, and everybody wins. If you don't like CC services or morality, go somewhere else, and there are plenty of other places. And maybe, really, someone should start an adoption agency just for gay couples. Then I would like to see the JUDGES stumble around with their decisions that this child, or that child, should be placed with a gay agency and therefore be adopted by a gay couple. Just imagine the flack over that, if the decision was initially made in court. Just think, Judge JOnes would hear a case on severing parental rights and then say, "I herby turn custodial rights over to the Rainbow Gay and Lesbian Adoption Agency, where a gay couple will be chosen to raise this child." Now THAT would be discrimination, don't you think? Plenty of people would be outraged over specifically targeting children for adoption by gay parents. And if specifically earmarking a child for a gay couple is not acceptable, then who can or should be placed, and who makes the decision? Pulling names out of a hat? A psychologist? I could see a lot of court cases coming from this. Even lawsuits years later from kids who have grown up and are angry over being raised by gay couples. Maybe a child will grow up resenting having same-sex parents, or have some adjustment problems from that. It's a tough non-choice to force on a little kid who has no choice. On the other hand, teenagers who can make decisions and might otherwise have no family, or severely handicapped children who need loving care and will not be aware of any controversies or differences, could easily thrive with a committed, loving, giving gay couple. Then you get into charges that gays can adopt only hard to place children. There seems to be no way to win this, except this: if you are gay and want to adopt a child, go to an agency that will allow you to do it. Sounds easy enough.

The church does not support gay adoption because gay marriage is fornication outside the sacrament of marriage.
The union of man and a women is sanctioned by the Bible and the Church. However, we are now realizing that some people do not fit into these parameters. Gay people want the same things that straight people want -- a home, love, and in some cases children. This is a hot ethical issue that will not go away.

Three cheers for the Archdiocese for its audacity of courage to stand up to the principalities and powers that are set to force legitimatizing Gay lifestyle! Their call for respecting diversity is pure humbug. Let's remind them of this next time when the Gay-Lesbi activists and their left/liberal supporters ask for tolerence from the rest of us.

"Christian Lawyer brings up a specific case that has unique circumstances. You cannot always generalize about the issue at large from such cases. There may indeed be instances when a child, considering the other options, would do better with a gay parent. Indeed, there are many cases where children have done well despite being in undesirable circumstances. Citing such cases doesn't really prove a whole lot."

-- I appreciate the middle part of this statement because TM and I don't agree on much. But, I must clarify. I wasn't generalizing from a specific. Actually, it was just the opposite. The court made a specific finding from the experts' testimony on gay parenting in general. The decision was based on the plethora of research cited, discussed, and fully cross-examined, on the general issue of gays and gay adoption. This expert testimony and research was not specific to these children. At the end, of course, the court did apply the general research to the particular situation, but it was the generalized expert testimony for which I was citing the case and which is worth reading. It wasn't just that they kids had no better place to go.

Genesis 19 (New American Standard Bible)

The Doom of Sodom

1Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
2And he said, "Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant's house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way." They said however, "No, but we shall spend the night in the square."

3Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

4Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;

5and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

6But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him,

7and said, "Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.

8"Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof."

9But they said, "Stand aside." Furthermore, they said, "This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them." So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door.

10But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.

11They struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway.

12Then the two men said to Lot, "Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;

13for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD that the LORD has sent us to destroy it."

The same Hebrew word -yada- is used in verse 5 and verse 8. When read in the context of the passage, instead of a "clobber verse", please explain how you can get any other meaning than this being a homosexual act.

The same goes for Lev. CHAPTER 18 and Romans CHAPTER 1.

Mr. Peterson,

Isn't that Florida case under appeal??

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/news/pressrelease.aspx?cid=4861

Homosexual "marriage" is NOT the same as heterosexual, especially among men.

There is a study coming out from the San Francisco State University, according to the NY Times that talks about the lack of monogamy in their relationships.

"Gay male couples generally don't view monogamy as the defining characteristic of a loving, committed relationship," Savage wrote. "Studies of male couples in long-term relationships have found that most gay male couples do allow for some 'outside sexual contact,' as they say, contacts that I wouldn't characterize as 'affairs' or 'cheating.' If there are no lies, if there is no betrayal, if neither partner is doing anything that violates the commitment he made to the other, then no one cheated and no one was cheated on."
Comment by Dan Savage on the View.

Read the entire article at:
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=32260

It's not the govern's job to promote sex or to change the meaning of a word especially such a centuries old word like marriage that has never been changed. As for civil rights, homosexuals were never slaves and if they're too lazy to see a lawyer to set up their sex partners rights to inheritance, etc., you know like single people have been doing for years, that's the homosexual's problem. If a referendum is illegal in a state, than change it, since isn't that what politicians do. Which is a laugh. The politicians we have making the laws are so corrupt, so no morals, the very laws they pass are illegal and unconstitutional. That's the kind of lawyers they are. Why, the govern can't even arrest a cult practicing poligamy. Govern's job is to provide a culture where people can live without fear of house invasion, rape, robbery, etc. not to promote sex, and not to discriminate against the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church for their beliefs and to pass laws to force people to give up their beliefs. This govern is becoming more like countries where corrupt govern's rule the roast. Referendum's have been legal for a long time now in this country, they're just beginning to be used by the public who can't seem to have actual constitutionists run for office, just the guys wanting their sex anyway they want and the power that goes along with it. I'm not Catholic but bravo for the Roman Catholic Church. I don't like my taxes spent on abortion either but politicians hand over money to the abortionists through the laws they make.

It appears there may be a CT impersonator who is having a little fun posting fake comments. (Rats! I wish I had been the first to think to do that - oh what fun!) If you suspect it, send CT the comment and ask them if they posted it.

The definition of gay is a extremely happy person, not the way you do sex. It's an attempt by homosexuals to change another word to make them sound nicer. As for marriage, it's between a man and woman, always been. The cheating or whatever else, divorce that goes on does not change the between a man and woman. There are different issues here and between a man and woman has nothing to do with the character of the man and woman anymore than Hitler being Nazi meant that all Germans were Nazis. It's not the govern's job to promote sex, I mean what's next, the guy who told an eleven-yr old girl that God said she had to have sex with him and the govern says yes, that's a new definition of marriage. It's a slippery slope once you start it and politicians are the least moral people to be making that decision. Homosexuals are not Christians or they would be abstaining from the same sex and not demanding that everybody change their beliefs so they can act not be like Christians. Love isn't about sex, it's about not forcing someone to accept you, just be nice to each other. Christians try to keep their lives through love, not sex. Those who stray need their own boat or to unstray. Yes, sometimes you have to spend money with a lawyer to clarify what you want done with your estate, etc.
It's too bad but singles have been doing it for years otherwise the state gets to dispose of your estate, etc.

Almost every civilization on planet earth for the past 10,000 years has viewed homosexuality as a perversion, and to my knowledge no ancient civilization allowed ss marriage. Only recently has any govt. allowed ss marriage. Those few who have allowed it are decadent, western european in culture. Now you may think that the bible endorses ss marriage; however, you have never proven it from the text of scripture.

"The same Hebrew word -yada- is used in verse 5 and verse 8. When read in the context of the passage, instead of a "clobber verse", please explain how you can get any other meaning than this being a homosexual act."
---Not necessary. Attempted rape is quite plainly wrong regardless of the gender(s) involved.

"Why should Gay couples who want to do right by each other, have to pay a lawyer expensive billable hours and wade through tons of extra legal paperwork to get what other people get with an inexpensive marriage license?"
---It's impossible anyway. No amount of lawyering can yield all the rights of marriage, short of legalizing marriage itself.

The question is not whether Catholic Charities of Washington, DC, has "religious freedom" to discriminate against Gay couples, but whether they are accepting public funds in the process! Gay people are taxpayers too, and I don't want my tax dollars going to organizations that discriminate against me, any more than a Catholic would want his tax dollars going toward an organization that discriminates against Catholics.

Catholic Charities of Boston went through this same situation years ago. I frankly couldn't care less if their adoption service discriminated against Gay couples or Muslim couples or whomever. Problem was, Catholic Charities of Boston were being funded by the State of Massachusetts to the tune of a million bucks per year! And they were given a choice: Either stop discriminating against Gay couples, or give up their public funding. They chose to give up the funding. Fine by me. You wanna feed at public trough, you'd better be prepared to play by the rules.

Citing the case in Florida helps prove some of my points. Even if it purports to be a meta-analysis of several studies (many of which will have inherent biases due to the subject matter and the hyper-passionate lobbying efforts of homosexual activists) a judge cannot really conclude (based on, among other things, the lack of valid studies and his or her own lack of expertise in the subject) very much from TWENTY PAGES of documentation regarding the general subject of homosexual adoption.

Of course, the judge in this case (which, I understand, is on appeal) had to propound a verdict, but the judgment rendered WAS NOT AND COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE a scientific inquiry into homosexual adoption as it was a legal judgment involving a unique set of circumstances. The particular case is what drove the data accumulation and interpretation. The judge necessarily had to make a decision based on very incomplete data.

The amount of follow-up we have regarding the effects of homosexual parenting is essentially nonexistent compared to the centuries of follow-up we have regarding heterosexual child-rearing. Like the sexual revolution of the 60’s, we may not really know the effects of same-sex marriage/ parenting for decades. (I don't intend that as "clobber" statement, it's merely a factual observation).

Many astute, neutral observers point out that sexuality studies in the psychological/sociological realm are often ideologically-charged pseudo-science masquerading as science.

Additionally, several medical organizations (like the AMA) have ideologically left-leaning leadership, that being one reason most practitioners DO NOT belong to them. Ergo, many organizations that purport to represent a consensus of doctors and other clinicians really don’t.

The trial judge in the Florida gay adoption case had two separate issues before her. One was whether adoption by the gay foster parent was in the best interest of the children (which was based on the testimony specifically about the children, and which is NOT the testimony I've been talking about). The second was, if the adoption was in the best interests of the children, whether the Florida statute banning gay adoption was constitutional. Thus, the court was required to analyze whether or not any rational basis existed for banning gay adoption. This had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the two kids. That analysis was based entirely on years' worth of scientific evidence presented by expert witnesses from BOTH sides over a four day trial.

Each testifying expert from both sides (almost a dozen) had to put his/her opinions in writing before trial and disclose EVERY SHRED OF EVIDENCE upon which their opinions were based. Then, the other side's lawyers questioned each expert in a deposition for hours (using their own experts to help them uncover any potential weakness or bias in either the underlying studies or in the opinions expressed by the expert). In addition, each side could secretly consult other (non-testifying) experts to help them take apart the other side's experts. That was all before trial.

Then, if either side believed the other's experts were unqualified, or if either side believed the other side's experts' testimony was speculative or amounted to junk science, they could challenge the fitness of the expert to present that expert's testimony at trial. All of the experts who testified at trial either WERE NOT CHALLENGED or passed this muster.

Then, at trial, each side put on their experts and intensely cross-examined the other's experts. Cross-examination allows a lawyer to ferret out and highlight any and all weaknesses in that expert's testimony or in the science upon which that expert's opinions are based. (This is why the Order is NOT merely a meta-analysis, which is one author or group doing its own analysis. Instead, the Order reflects the RIGOROUS grilling by each side into the science proffered by the other.)

The trial covered four days and included probably 10-15 hours of trial testimony (hundreds of pages of transcript) by the experts. The Order cited to at least THREE DOZEN studies or articles. So, it wasn't merely "TWENTY PAGES of documentation" that the judge analyzed. The 20 pages was the judge's SUMMARY of thousands of pages of evidence, all either heard live or reviewed by the judge.

Unless the anti-gay-adoption side's attorneys were completely incompetent, which none of the press coverage apparently revealed, the anti-gay-adoption side had a full and complete opportunity to put on ALL the evidence they could muster, including ALL the evidence (or uncertainty) that exists that could have undercut the testimony by the pro-gay-adoption side.

The Florida Order sets out all the best and most current research on the issue of gay parenting and gay adoption. You can disagree with the conclusions of the research, but you can't truthfully say that the judge "necessarily had to make a decision based on very incomplete data."

And, finally, yes, as I've said twice, IT'S ON APPEAL, but I wouldn't get my hopes up about a reversal if I were you. Here's how the appeal went: http://www.miamiherald.com/2009/08/26/1204022/floridas-ban-on-gay-adoption-goes.html

If the Catholic Church is unable to meet the criteria for a accepting taxpayer money, it will rightly be cut off from those funds. The Church made its bed; not it must lie in it.
American citizens, including gays and lesbians, cannot be forced to subsidize the bigotry of the Catholic Church or any other religious organization. The churches and mosques and synogogues and animal sacrificers need to keep their superstition and prejudice out of our government.

"The churches and mosques and synogogues and animal sacrificers [mine: but what else are cats good for?] need to keep their superstition and prejudice out of our government."
Oh,really? But you will accept their money, won't you? You know, THEIR tax dollars that proglibs use to fund pork programs and projects that nobody would pay for otherwise - like the National Endowment for the Arts who actually gave some clown grant money several years ago for putting a crucifix in a bottle of urine and calling it art. Remember the $200,000,000 in pork a repub. senator in Alaska asked for to build a bridge to nowhere. Oh, no you proglibs love the $'s Christians, Jews, Muslims and pagan cat sacrificers send to the govt.; you just don't want them injecting their ideas and beliefs into govt. [Caveat: I own 4 cats and am totally against sacrificing cats to any deity. Having said that...would anyone here like a very nice neutered cat who answers to the name of Lee Marvin? He's litter box trained and requires only small acts of obeisance - like genuflecting when he enters a room.]

"The religious right is biblio-idolatrously abusing the context of the Bible by carefully ignoring it, from carefully finding out what it even is. They're even using "homosexual" Bibles, for it's own greedy purposes. Never mind that an obsolete science theory hardly should be used in Bible translations."

I'm sorry but this is a lie. I posted the entire story in Genesis so that everyone could read it "in context". If you like I can post Lev.18 and Romans 1 so you can read those "in context". I have studied each and it is very clear what is meant. But please don't take any person on this blogs word for it, study it for yourself.

What is the "obsolete science theory" you speak of??

The APA(which the other side loves to quote) said in 2009 that the gay gene has still not been found.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=528376

I'm not saying the desires are not there, everyone has desires that they must deal with. Christians call them that "thorn in our side" that help to keep us humble. Saying God made me this way is just an excuse to act however we want.

Christians need to step up and get more involved in the foster/adoption programs (I would like to know what percentage in the system now are Christians, if someone has that info). The majority of people I know that are involved are Chrisitan, but being a Christian myself, that is the world I run in.

Just like homosexuality, the Bible is very clear that we are to take care of the children and widows.

As usual, Christian Lawyer gives no credence whatsoever to any opposing view, has an ongoing difficulty distinguishing fact from opinion, propounds legalisms to avoid straightforward discussion, and turns what could be an intelligent, civil (dare I say “Christian?”) discussion into a confrontation.

There's absolutely nothing in her last post that effectively refutes what I have presented. If she thinks so she either didn't read my posts carefully or simply cannot comprehend them. Therefore, it would be yet another exercise in futility to review them further.

Am I optimistic that the Florida court decision will be overturned on appeal? No. But my lack of optimism has nothing to do with whether I think the court is being prudent. It has everything to do with whether I think red-faced activists, agenda-driven journalists, and ACLU-loving attorneys will rule the day. They are definitely the modern-day cultural squeaky wheels, and, like spoiled children, will insist on getting their way regardless of whether it’s in the best interest of society.

Some years ago Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote that America was becoming a state more concerned with legal, pharisaical nuance than objectivity and traditional moral precepts. In other words legality was increasingly being used as a substitute for morality. He’s being proven right.

If anyone wants to read the appellate briefs in the Florida gay adoption case to see who's telling the truth about the evidence that was presented, they can be found here (assuming CT doesn't delete them again):

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/re-gill-states-reply-brief

I suspect the problem was not the Catholic Church "taking government money." I suspect it is that CPS and the courts said your requirements for foster and adoptive parents no longer match ours, so change yours.
In many states CPS contracts out adoptions of children whose parental rights were terminated and also a portion of foster care to various non-profit agencies. Many of these agencies are church or religious sponsered. Foster care payments are still made to families providing care. If children are in a group home, sometimes the only option with older children, then the organization providing the group home is paid the foster care money.
Non-profit agencies usually offer other family services not connected with CPS and it is less expensive to contract out to them and make use of the non-profit agencies' personnel and their community resources, especially in recruiting families to provide foster care and find adoptive homes for hard to place (older, multiple siblings, or handicapped) children.
The system works as long as CPS allows non-profit groups to enforce their own requiremments on choices of foster and adoptive parents, as long as they meet CPS requirements, too. The system does not when non-profits are told the rules have changed and you have to change with them. This is why it can in the long run affect many other religious based non-profit agencies, both christian and non-christian.
If anyone has a better understanding of how the system work, please explain it.

Marriage is an institution reserved for those whom in the natural course of life will produce children. Same sex partners can hump each other all they want, but they will never get each other pregnant and help with the continuation of the species.

It does not matter if we insult each other with the rest of the debate. Gays do not rate either the benefits of marriage or the downside.

Maybe 50 years ago, the Shakers were denied the right to adopt, since they never practiced sex. Without adoption, they died out. That was fine.

As a fellow believer in the midst of confusing and troubling times, I deeply value and appreciate the passionate pursuit of truth that so many people have expressed through this blog. I agree that this is a tough issue to address, and one that has clearly elicited strong responses from both sides. I also feel it is indescribably important to remember that as followers of Christ, we are called to see inherent worth in every human being. This includes a universal respect for others, regardless of differences in practice or belief. Unfortunately, it seems that individuals on both sides of this debate have failed.

It is entirely possible to firmly oppose the legalization of gay marriage and support the Archdiocese's decision while maintaining respect for homosexuals and those sympathetic to their cause. Likewise, it is possible to be deeply disappointed with the action taken by the Archdiocese and still respect those with more conservative views. It is never appropriate to respond by maliciously attacking the other side, no matter how strongly you may disagree. So I urge all of you to continue passionately arguing for truth in the hopes that we will get as close as possible on this side of heaven. Just do it in a way that more accurately reflects and glorifies Christ.

That said, the Archdiocese of Washington has a responsibility to act in accordance with the greater Catholic church. This program could not continue under current law without allowing gay couples to adopt, which the Vatican is vehemently opposed to. The Archdiocese was right in transferring its responsibilities to another agency. The most important thing is that these children are placed in loving families where they will hopefully experience blessed lives.

No religious organization should be taking money from the government, it causes them to rely too much on the government and then the government tries to control them.

You could show some respect for "homosexuals" by using "Gay," the identifier that Gay people usually prefer. "Homosexual" is excessively clinical for starters, and isn't much used by Gay people. It is usually the polite thing to use the name that the people being addressed prefer.

"You could show some respect for "homosexuals" by using "Gay,"..." Perhaps when you stop caricaturing evangelical as you do, the favor would be returned.

I "caricatured" Evangelicals by suggesting that a way of showing respect is to use names that the people being addressed prefer? As an artist, if I really wanted to caricature Evangelicals, I could deliver.

CR221 talked about universal respect, I suggested a way of showing good will, and why one might adopt my suggestion.

On the other hand, maybe I was too direct in the way I worded my post. In any case, I am sorry if I offended. Even sorrier that I don't understand how.

"It's uncontroversial outside of "conservative" religious circles that the "homosexual" clobber verses are about idolatrous practices, such as in fertility cults, and not about sexual orientations." Funny, Paul the Apostle didn't get "the memo" - nor did the church for the past 2000 years get "the memo" - nor did the conservative/orthodox Jews for the past 3500 years get "the memo". You know "the memo" that those verses were ONLY about idolatrous practices. You'd a thunk God would have been a little more sensitive when it comes to clarifying His moral policy. Instead we're stuck with either a God who stutters or One who changes His moral nature willy nilly. "You know, God, a little "heads up" would have been nice, here."
Regarding my suggestion above: I was referring to other posts where you've thrown verbal "monkey poo" at us evangelicals. But I was not angry or offended - I was just offering up a suggestion. And no need for an apology - unless you feel the need to apologize. And I always accept others' apologies even if I was not offended.

I stand by my statement that the verses are about idolatrous practices, such as in fertility cults, and not about sexual orientations. Paul did not address sexual orientations. Leviticus did not address sexual orientations. That is not controversial. A great deal of the Bible addresses idolatry.

Because ancient idolatry is no longer practiced...there is no temple to Moloch down the street, then some people think that the verses are about what some people want them to be about...versed condemning their neighbors. So much easier that thinking that the verses are directly challenging you and me to think about what idolatry you and me are practicing. The verses are challenging us to judge ourselves, the idolatry that we practice, not our neighbors, Gay or not. We don't live their lives.

Ancients had their own labels and explanations for various groups of people, their activities, real or imagine, and assigned status to individuals, groups and activities.

As Leviticus shows, in some ancient civilizations, same-sex intercourse with a male priest was literally a religious experience. Sex with a male slave, on the other hand, was his owner's business, and so was condoned, but just. Shamans and priests were often cross dressers. They though it brought good luck from the gods for a man to have sex with them. Leviticus thinks not.

There is also the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu. Enkidu was a wild, "beautiful" man who had been seduced into civilization by a temple prostitute, sent from King Gilgamesh specifically to do that. Later, after an erotically charged wrestling match with Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh loved him like a bride. Enkidu teaches Gilgamesh in how a king should treat his subjects. They became constant companions until Enkidu's untimely death. Gilgamesh's love for Enkidu inspired him on his quest to become an eternal...so he could be forever reunited with his Enkidu.

This isn't a story about ancient "homosexuals." It's a story about a great love...a love so powerful that even I know about it, millennia after the real Gilgamesh had died.

So, the frequently stated claim that all civilizations condemned "homosexuality" is wrong, and right...depending upon who was having sex with whom, and why. Same thing, of course, with other-sex sexual intercourse.

Many same-sex ways evolved along gender or age stratified roles. These reflected the larger societies as they existed then.

We think of our society as a meritocracy, not a patronage society. Our society is more egalitarian, even in marriage, than were Bible era societies. Slavery is forbidden. Women, even married women, have legal control over their bodies. Sex roles in a marriage are flexible. Women can wash the car, and men can wash the clothes. One may prefer doing one to the other, but both can and will do what is necessary for the family. Marriage is now a mutually consenting marriage of loving equals...a great redefining of marriage.

This is reflected with the Gay community as well, as you could predict. The Gay community demands that adults be respected as adults. That is the "homosexual agenda." Disrespecting consent by adults is apparently the conservative Evangelical agenda...and American history show that this is not something new with them.

"Paul did not address sexual orientations. Leviticus did not address sexual orientations. That is not controversial. A great deal of the Bible addresses idolatry." Support your opinion with exegesis - if you can. In every book of the bible God confronts His people with the consequences of their moral failures. He also provides them with the way back to Himself. And if those "clobber" verses in the OT/NT don't address orientation, they certainly address practice. And there are no qualifications. The whole chapter of Lev. 18 is about sinful practices. In addition, you don't even try to address the argument from Jewish history and Christian history. What about that "context"? You totally ignore those historical contexts. Why? B/c you know the faithful Jew/Christian from the last 3500/2000 years would never even begin to endorse same sex marriage. Jewish/Christian history understands exactly what Moses/Paul meant by those verses. Why don't you?

Friendly Reminder


Please do not hog the blog. Please do not utilize this space with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

BJ
Community Manager

Either side believed the other's experts were unqualified, or if either side believed the other side's experts' testimony was speculative or amounted to junk science, they could challenge the fitness of the expert to present that expert's testimony at trial.

Interesting the Christian Lawyer does not seem to understand that the government trough is NOT neutral. It is very much secularist radically discriminating against those who oppose its agenda. And, just as LGBT individuals don't want to subsidize people who disagree with them, so with Christians. How is it that the LGBT individuals win on this one and yet are seen to be free of discrimination?

Further, if "sex" (as in gender, male or female, or?) is malleable, how can sexual orientation be fixed?


All for one and one for all.


Put your trust in God and keep your powder dry.

Okay, Dan, let's talk exegesis. Just so you know, there are multiple books written on this topic that cover the Scriptures in Leviticus as well as Paul. I won't list them, because this is going to be a long post, but if you want to see a list, I can post one later.

But let's start with Jesus. The story of the centurion's servant. The word used to describe the servant is, in the Greek, "pais". The word means "boy", but there is evidence that in the culture of the time, the term "pais" referred to one of the roles in a homosexual relationship that has no equivalent today. It was something of a teacher-student relationship, as well as a widely practiced form of homosexual relations. When the centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant, more accurately translated as lover, did Jesus tell him to stop sleeping with him? Did he say his lover would die of AIDS instead? No, he healed him and sent the centurion on his way, because of the centurion's faith. You want Jesus' comment on homosexuality, there it is, albeit sidelong.

Leviticus. It's been pointed out many, many times that while there are prohibitions against men sleeping with men, there are no such prohibitions against women having sex with women. Which raises the question, why? There are prohibited sexual activities for women, but that is not one of them. As posted earlier, it has been postulated that this is in reference to idolatrous practices. It brings up the vast cultural differences between OT times and now; sexual relations weren't organized along the same lines as they are today, and this passage reflects that. At best, for your argument, they had no concept of lesbianism. But what would that mean for male homosexuality? What are they actually referring to? Yes, the scripture is explicit, but there's no for-sure way to say that it's about "homosexuality" in the terms we understand it today. I can't say that it doesn't prohibit, but neither can you say it unequivocally prohibits. And no, that's not an equivocation on the part of pro-gay scholars.

The Pauline and Timothean texts are again based on context, and, in fact, the full meaning of the words that are translated as "homosexual", arsenokoitai and malakoi, are unknown. "Malakoi", which, literally translated, means "soft", and has been read in context to mean "effeminate", a male prostitute, or a boy kept by a child molester. Not the understanding of homosexuality we have today. "Arsenokoitai" is a word that only appears in the Pauline text, and nowhere else, which makes its interpretation difficult. There are multiple meanings, not all of which have to do with homosexual behavior. Moreover, this word only applies to men. Again, where are the women? If this is about homosexuality as we understand it now, where is the prohibition against lesbianism in this list? If you look at the organization of the sins in the Greek, the lists are highly organized. The terms translated as "homosexual" fall between economic and sexual sins. "Arsenokoitai", with its aggressive implications, seems to have more to do with slave traders or rapists than with the kind of homosexuality we see today.

And as for the passage in Romans, there is evidence that the practices referred to there refer not to homosexual behavior in the context of a relationship or acknowledged erotic preference, but rather in the context of pagan fertility rites. So, is this the exegesis you were looking for?

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