Hermenuetics

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It isn't just girls that have a need for relationships that go beyond the physical. Boys have a deep need for someone they can talk to, someone they can hold hands with, someone they can cherish, someone with whom they can share things that matter - God, sunsets, family, ... Society does us all a grave disservice by failing to provide role models for this much healthier and more satisfying way of life. My wife and I have been married for 38 years, but I still remember those lost, lonely, agonizing years of male adolescence.

Eric

Posted By: Eric Rogers | June 15, 2010 3:39 PM

Eric,

Thank you for adding a male perspective to this piece. The boys in our dormitory always respond very positively to hearing our story, and it suggests to me exactly what you said. For whatever reason, however, the articles I've seen recently have been about girls. I wonder whether the media inadvertently assumes some gender stereotypes that boys/men don't care about or need relationships as much as girls/women?

Thanks again for your comments,

Amy Julia

Posted By: amy Julia | June 16, 2010 8:13 AM

We need this teaching in the church, not just to young people but all christians. We just did a 3 week program for our High School Youth and learned some things ourselves. For one thing sexuality needs to be taught in middle school classes as well as some topics for 4th & 5th graders. Also if you look at church history for the last few decades you know that many churches did not teach Biblical sexual morality for a long time. So a lot of christian parents of teenagers face a problem of how do I teach my child about chastity when I never heard the word till after college? How does a parent tell a teenager to say no, when the parent said yes as a young person? I have read a lot of good christian books on sexuality but no one has covered this. Thanks.

Posted By: Billy Reed | June 16, 2010 11:36 AM

Reading the Gospels will only help if you believe that they are true. I think that the Jesus in the Bible is wonderful. Unfortunately, I also believe that the Bible is fiction.

Also, is it possible that there are alternatives to the "Christian love story" that may lead to matrimonial happiness? My husband and I are atheists and have been happily married for fifteen years. A relationship built on mutual trust and respect is the most important thing, not waiting to have sex until marriage.

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 16, 2010 12:09 PM

Elizabeth is on to something that I think stands to reason. Waiting for marriage before having sex has nothing to do with whether couples experience the spiritual and emotional aspect of a relationship. Marriage was never a word in the Hebrew language and it is therefore inferred in the OT. Neither was the word "wife." Nor was marriage defined in the Bible. Often, what constituted marriage was the fact that there was premarital sex.

Everything that is of concern is what the Bible is all about. Relationships. We were created in the image of God. That image is God's Spirit. Our spirit is our relation with God and mankind.

Also, to ask someone to read the Bible without an understanding of how to read the Bible, is not going to produce any understanding, unless you expect others to read the Bible literally. It is wrong, in my understanding, to read the Bible literally as a literal reading relies on one's personal knowledge to interpret the Bible.

Lastly, although sin was not mentioned, I see no reference to sin in the Bible that relates sin to sex.

Posted By: Tom | June 16, 2010 1:17 PM

It breaks my heart to have someone say that the Bible is "fiction," however I am heartened to see that same person reading and commenting on a Christian blog. Maybe that is a sign that their atheism is not entirely confirmed. I pray so...

Having said that, the Bible definitely talks about sexual sin, and if you read Proverbs, it is loaded with references to the downfall and misery it can cause.

I think the advantage of waiting until the commitment of marriage, is that you don't throw away that exclusivity on meaningless relationships. I only have experience with an exclusive relationship with one man for the almost 36 years of our marriage, but I highly recommend it! Western culture teaches that the "sparks" only last a short time, but my husband and I are living proof that it just gets better and better!

Now we just have to figure out how to convey that to the young people in our culture.

Thank you for your thoughtful coverage of this topic.

Posted By: Suzy | June 16, 2010 6:35 PM

It breaks my heart that others cannot accept my beliefs (i.e. that my beliefs "break your heart"). I respect your beliefs, please respect mine.

As to why I read Christian blogs, and neo-pagan blogs, and Buddhist blogs, and Muslim blogs, I read them because I like to understand the ways that others think. Especially in the United States, Christianity influences politics and law in so many ways, I think it is helpful to understand the other side. It does not mean that my beliefs are not affirmed. Thank you.

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 16, 2010 7:01 PM

Donna Freitas's book Sex and the Soul: Juggling Sexuality, Spirituality, Romance, and Religion on America's College Campuses has some scholarly-yet-easy-to-read FASCINATING research on what young people really want in relationships, and how they connect (or don't connect) their sexual choices with faith.

I would recommend it to anyone who knows college students, works with college students, or just wants help in articulating how their own faith affects their decisions about sex.

Posted By: Hannah | June 16, 2010 8:13 PM

To Elizabeth: The major factors that led me to faith in God were reason and logic. You suggest that the Bible will only help you if you believe it to be true, yet you view it as fiction. Such reasoning suggests that the ACTUAL truth is irrelevant. Do you believe that? Will atheism help you if you believe it to be true even if it's a grand fiction?

To Tom: you are sadly misinformed about sexual sin and the Bible.

Posted By: Truthmeister | June 16, 2010 9:42 PM

If there really is no God, we are all in the same boat. If there is a God, then I don't pretend to know what He wants nor do I think it is necessary to choose one religion over another or to adhere dogmatically to one. Which one to choose? How do I know if the Bible is right or if I should be worshiping Muhammad? Or maybe I should be more concerned with reaching Nirvana? What makes Christianity any different than those other religions? I suppose there is no real benefit to being an atheist if God truly exists, but I refuse to be religious "just in case I'm wrong."

I also believe that my beliefs should not offend anyone as they are MY beliefs and should have no effect on others. Somehow the existence of athiests/agnostics is offensive to people though. People feel the need to change my mind. I will never understand why.

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 16, 2010 10:39 PM

I think, Elizabeth, that you may not understand that calling the Bible "fiction" is offensive to many Christians, who believe that it is the infallible Word of God. When you start a post with that assertion, even if it is only your belief, as you say, you are bound to get a reaction.

As Christians, we have been commanded to spread the gospel, because "God is not willing that anyone should perish." Just like we have freedom of religion in the U.S., you also have the freedom to reject the free gift of salvation. Nobody will force you to believe and receive, but Christians, if they are truly following Christ, have a heart for the lost and want everyone to have the joy and hope that only comes through the Savior.

Posted By: Suzy | June 17, 2010 7:44 AM

Elizabeth, I think you may be closer to belief in God than you think.

Two books I would recommend--and, as a searcher and explorer, I think you would find them to be very interesting reading whether you agreed with everything in them or not--are the following: "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, a classic work in Christian apologetics, and "What's So Great About Christianity" by D'nesh D'Souza (sp.?), a more recent work grappling with contemporary issues.

Congratulations on your successful marriage. You have beaten the average of both religious and non-religious households.

Posted By: Truthmeister | June 17, 2010 8:07 AM

Well, Suzy, I'm sorry that my beliefs are offensive, but I hope that you are aware that I find your beliefs to be quite offensive. To call me "lost" is incredibly offensive to me because, believe it or not, I have actually put a lot of thought into my beliefs, as I am sure you have put into yours. You are right, it is a free country, but I still don't appreciate being condescended to. In my original post, I posed a question in the hopes of an honest discussion about what makes a good marriage. However, instead of responding to that, people have chosen to focus on my atheism. Oh well.

Truthmeister- Thank you for the recommendations. I have read C.S. Lewis in the past and enjoyed his writing.

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 17, 2010 11:34 AM

Thanks everyone for your comments on this piece so far. Elizabeth, thank you in particular for wading into this conversation with honesty and graciousness. Back to your original question, I'm afraid my answer is going to come off as condescending once again. Because I believe that God is good and gracious to all, I believe that any goodness in the world is from God. Which is to say, I believe that you and your husband have a good marriage because you've participated in God's best for us as human beings.

I also want to clarify that I completely agree with you that "waiting until marriage for sex" is not the answer to a happy marriage. I believe, however, that the mutual respect and trust you describe is most fully expressed within the covenant of marriage, and I believe that sex is a manifestation or affirmation of that mutual respect and trust. Can there be mutual respect and trust and love and goodness and sex outside of marriage? Yes. But the covenantal/ sacramental/ legal protection of marriage helps, and it provides the fullest expression that we have of that mutual respect and trust and love and goodness.

Amy Julia

Posted By: amy Julia | June 17, 2010 11:56 AM

Elizabeth - when Suzy used the word "lost" I think she didn't mean you were intellectually lost or confused, but rather "lost to Jesus", a phrase invoking the metaphor of the Biblical story of sheep lost to a shepherd. Anyone not saved is "lost" to God, from the Christian perspective, and anyone who is saved is considered "found", by Jesus.

To the original author - thank you for this article.

Posted By: Nadien | June 18, 2010 10:49 AM

Amy Julia,

Thanks for the great blog. The key in both your blog theme, and in the dialogues with Elizabeth, is that all of us as people need to be valued and cherished, whether or not others agree with us. A good marriage is based upon mutual trust, respect, and the valuing and honoring of your mate. Good parenting is based upon mutual trust, respect, and the honoring of the uniqueness and value of each child.

This is true of adolescents seeking meaningful role models or methodology life, and for people seeking conceptual paradigms in which to find mental cohesion to make sense of life and the world.

Elizabeth:

Thanks for being you, and for sharing so articulately your perspectives. We as Christians, and indeed all humans, do not always realize how our vocabulary is understood (or indeed misunderstood) by people who have different meanings or emotions attached to those words. Without being able to appraise the heart, values and motivation behind a person's words, all words are prone to misinterpretation and/or misunderstanding.

A prime example of that was the big explosion over the words of the BP's spokesperson this last week. He was trying to communicate a shared sympathy with the people of the Gulf coast and used the phrase "we care about all the small people." Having had to speak to people in another language, I know how easily this kind of thing happens. Some idioms used by the differing language groups come across as nonsensical at best, or offensive at worse. I know that the BP man did not mean to demean the Gulf Coast people, nor imply that they were diminutive, pitiful little creatures when compared with important business executives.

Yet because of presuppositions and emotional anger on the part of the recipients of the negative oil spill consequences, that is how many people interpreted it, rather than realizing that he was only trying to say that "we care about all the people affected by this oil spill."

So, all that to say, I appreciate your comments, your personhood, and while I don't personally subscribe to atheism, I appreciate your insights, comments, and willingness to interact with people who believe differently from you.

Congratulations on your long-standing marriage.

Posted By: Ed Jordan | June 18, 2010 12:00 PM

Thanks, Nadien, for a beautiful clarification of my rather clumsy attempt to answer Elizabeth's question about why people were responding to her post in such a way. I realize that it is very difficult to convey the Christian message without sounding holier-than-thou or superior, rather than humble and thankful, as we should be.

Ed makes a good point about the limitations of language. Somehow we must be able to explain what we believe without stepping on the other person's toes--an often difficult task when the very nature of one belief denies the truths and values of the other.

Posted By: Suzy | June 18, 2010 12:55 PM

The reason teenagers don't want to wait is because when you tell them to not have sex before marriage, you only give them half of the equation. The other half is marriage. The average age of first marriage now is about 28 or so. Telling teens to wait that long is basically telling them to wait forever. True love waits, but not for a decade.

As they get older, the message doesn't change. It's still "wait". And the requirements for "readiness" for marriage keep creeping up. First it's wait until you graduate from high school. Then it's wait until you finish college. Then you have to establish a career, buy a house, and "don't settle down just yet, go enjoy yourself!" Just not with sex. This is what is told to young Christians whether they are in relationships or not. If you have a relationship, it's "be SURE you're ready" and if you don't it's "be content in the Lord, it's his timing." This is repeated ad nauseum. Even if you're in your late 20's, mid 30's, or darn near menopausal.

The proportion of young people who are willing to wait for marriage is directly proportional to the likelihood that marriage will happen. It has nothing to do with devotion to God.

Posted By: Katryna | June 20, 2010 11:10 PM

We are all human with the attendant shortcomings and weaknesses that being human entails. But God can give us the strength to avoid most temptations, although we have to do our part by avoiding dubious situations. So, I have to disagree with Katryna on that point. While we all may slip, devotion to God definitely is a major factor in maintaining sexual integrity.

We have young people waiting to get married now more than ever. In some respects that's a good thing, but there's a negative side: we are not bringing up kids to know how to be married. They may be the product of a divorced or never-married home and they don't see healthy marriage models. Often the custodial parent has some degree of guilt or feelings of inadequacy and that further infects the psychology of the situation. And we live in a culture that, increasingly, devalues traditional marriage.

Additionally, we have raised at least two generations of materialistic narcissists.

How can someone be married successfully with these kinds of influences? Only by the grace of God.

Posted By: Truthmeister | June 21, 2010 4:08 PM

Thank you for the kind words. I think its important that people who see the world through different lenses be able to coexist and communicate. That also means not calling two whole generations of people "materialistic narcissists." By not making blanket statements about people with different values and different beliefs, I think this world would be a much better place.

By the way, truthmeister, I'm fifty pages into Mere Christianity. Got a lot to say about it.

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 21, 2010 7:52 PM

Elizabeth,

This is an off-topic comment, so everyone else forgive me! I'm wondering if you'd be willing to email me directly at amyjuliabecker [at] gmail [dot[ com? I have a question for you about a different writing project I'm thinking about where I'm looking for a variety of perspectives on what makes life meaningful and good. (Other readers, of course, feel free to email me as well if you have thoughts!)

Thanks,

Amy Julia

Posted By: amy Julia | June 21, 2010 9:05 PM

Elizabeth, if you do a lot of reading and research on this topic I believe you will see a preponderence of evidence supporting the notion that the last couple of generations are more plagued with narcissism and materialism than any previous American generation. That was not intended as a blanket statement (it has many exceptions), but rather as an objective, general observation, an observation that--admittedly--has many variables and is thus hard to prove conclusively.

I believe all values and beliefs are NOT the same and, therefore, the subject of judgments with respect to which ones benefit humanity the most. That does not mean I don't desire to coexist with and examine other beliefs fairly and rationally. Indeed, that approach is what fuels my evaluations and judgments. We have to engage civilly, but we also have to get away from this heavily inculcated, politically correct notion that we cannot make judgments based on objective observation.

Congrats on reading C.S. Lewis. I hope you find the book interesting.

Posted By: Truthmeister | June 21, 2010 9:47 PM

I know about what "they" are saying about the younger generations. While I think that awareness of these changes is important, I don't find the scornful language you used to be helpful. You are talking about people, after all.

I have made a little progress on Mere Christianity. I would say that so far, I am disappointed. I think it is fascinating that someone would try to make a logical argument "proving" Christianity as truth. However, as far as I can tell, in order to accept much of his argument, one must believe that the Bible accurately portrays events that actually happened. That is not something I can accept. I also find his reasoning faulty at points. I suppose such a reaction is not surprising from someone who calls herself an atheist.

Amy Julia- I think I will have to respectfully decline your offer. I appreciate your openness, but I somehow don't think it would be a good idea. Even as I am writing this response, I am beginning to think that posting my comments here may have been a mistake. I am flattered though.

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 23, 2010 7:30 PM

Elizabeth, Lewis is not necessarily a Biblical literalist. His points require some pondering. I would encourage you to continue reading with an open mind.

My language, although direct, was not intended to be scornful (I also indict myself with my comments).

I might suggest that calling the Bible "fiction" could be interpreted by Christians as scornful (and they are people, too). That doesn't particularly offend me, I just think it's factually inaccurate. But I applaud your honesty and desire to engage the conversation.

Posted By: Truthmeister | June 23, 2010 9:49 PM

There's a new article/interview on the Atlantic that pertains to the original post: "My Year Without Sex" http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2010/06/my-year-without-sex/58592/. It's written by a woman who decided to forgo sex for a year and see what happened in her relationships. She wasn't in any way motivated by God or religion, and she found that it was both liberating and revelatory.

Posted By: Amy Julia | June 24, 2010 3:47 PM

Calling the Bible fiction is a comment about a book, admittedly an important book to many people, but not about people themselves. I've got news for you, lots of people don't believe the Bible is true. For example, the Jews. My point was not to insult Christians but to say that it might not do any good to suggest that a few high school boys read the Bible in the hopes that they will find God if they do not believe the Bible to tell a true story. Since they are not "believers," I suspect that might be the case. My apologies for the confusion.

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 24, 2010 6:18 PM

Elizabeth,
It is true that premarital sex is a sin according to the Bible, there are verses in Proverbs, Romans. Also, the Christian Christmas story about Mary is such a miracle in way because Joseph did not leave Mary when he found out she was pregnant, they were betrothed (engaged). The angel appearing to Joseph was part of the miracle in that she could have been stoned or left by him had the angel not appeared to him, and for that culture, very likely stoned. So sex before betrothal was a sin according to Jewish law and so was adultery (there were alot of women who were stoned to death back then, its nice things aren't quite so strict now with Mosaic law, that is also part of the blessing of our faith and the message of grace in the new testament). I'm glad you are exploring christianity. I have read many tenets of Buddhism as well and find them valid. Just because common wisdom occurs in many places does not make it wrong, nevertheless there is something different about the grace offered in the Christian faith. For the record, if you aren't attracted to the faith because of the (I think) overly severe, rigid, dogmatic politics and anti-women messages you see in the popular media, please know that these views don't represent the faith well. For example, I am a Christian, and a feminist, and I even have socialist leanings (please don't tell though I don't want anyone to arrest me). I voted and support President Obama. I even think Jesus was a little socialist. Anyway, not to press my politics on you or anything, but if you are thinking all Christian women are stay at home moms, capitalists, or Republican I can assure you you are quite wrong. I would suggest you read the Bible, especially the New Testament, so you can see how Jesus did things. Actually, He had alot to say about hypocrisy, and people in the Church who make things overly difficult for others (the Pharisees). The Gospel also helped women greatly and there were many women who followed his works and teachings closely, also women were the first to see him after he rose on the third day. So check it out but just know, its bigger and wayyy better than the "moral majority of right wingers" that is the political face of America, get to know Jesus instead you won't be dissappointed...

Posted By: alyson Davenport | June 24, 2010 6:55 PM

Oy. For the record, I have read all of the Gospels.

Truthmiester, I suggest you read "The Social Contract" by Thomas Hobbes. He explains how there can be an objective moral truth without the existence of a Creator, something that Lewis claims impossible in Mere Christianity. I find his reasoning much more sound than Lewis's.

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 24, 2010 7:29 PM

Elizabeth, I read Hobbes' Leviathon in college and found it to be very interesting. He was a great thinker. Although he wrote about the so-called "social contract," I don't recall a specific book of his by that name, but I could be mistaken (I believe the Rousseau had a book by that title).

In any case, Hobbes' views on religion are very much a point of contention. They are unclear. He talked about the "state of nature" but did not discount a "Creator" of nature. He made a serious mistake in not advocating the "separation of powers" doctrine that our founding fathers embraced, thus placing too much power with the state.

Be that as it may, I further encourage you to read more of C.S. Lewis as well as Dinesh D'Souza's "What's So Great About Christianity." As you well know, if you approach any work with too many preconceived notions and biases you will not get the maximum benefit from your study. All the best.

Posted By: Truthmeister | June 24, 2010 9:05 PM

You are right, the title of the work is Leviathan. You are also right in your implication that my biases are influencing the way I am reading Mere Christianity. I am having trouble reading it objectively. I simply disagree with many of the points he makes or think that his points could be explained in other ways that do not include the existence of God. Such is life...

Posted By: Elizabeth | June 24, 2010 9:33 PM

One further point of clarification... The reason I suggested that those boys read the Gospels is not because I think they assume that the Bible is the Word of God (although I do assume that it is). I suggested they read the Gospels in order to get a more accurate portrait of Jesus, and thereby, hopefully, of Christianity, than they might encounter simply through comments made by their friends and in the media and even in the classroom. Talking about morality, from a Christian perspective, is somewhat superfluous unless we can talk about Jesus as both the one who sets us free from a moral code and also as the one who calls us to the fullness of life for which we were created. I would never want anyone to think that Christianity can be summed up by rules like "don't have sex." I would be happy for someone to think that it can be summed up by the portraits of Jesus in the Gospels.

Posted By: Amy Julia | June 29, 2010 10:36 AM