Her.meneutics: The Argument for Girl-Boy Wrestling

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February 22, 2011

The Argument for Girl-Boy Wrestling

Joel Northrup cited his Christian faith for refusing to wrestle Cassy Herkelman in last week's Iowa state championship. I say his Christian faith should have taken him to the mat.

Caryn Rivadeneira, guest blogger

When my friend posted a link to the story of Joel Northrup — the 16-year-old Iowa wrestler who defaulted rather than wrestle a girl, Cassy Herkelman, in a state tournament last week — I was floored when my athletic, competitive friend said she had “mixed emotions” about his decision. I imagine this friend, had she pursued wrestling and not track and field in high school, would’ve wanted the opportunity to wrestle. Even if it meant competing against the boys.

My reaction to this story was decidedly unmixed. I think Joel should have wrestled Cassy.

Not that I don’t get some of the issues at play here. I understand that teenage boys, as a rule, are stronger than teenage girls. I understand that boys wrestling girls could introduce some sexual awkwardness. I agree that the best-case scenario would be for Cassy to be able to wrestle in an all-girls wrestling conference.

But in this world, best-case scenarios almost never exist. So our job as Christians is to figure out how best to live and behave in these broken scenarios, how to be “salt and light” in every arena.

Which brings me back to Joel, since he cited his Christian faith as reason to default.

In his statement, Joel said, “Wrestling is a combat sport and it can get violent at times. As a matter of conscience and my faith I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner.”

I applaud Joel's decision to back away from any seeming violence toward girls. But I wonder why he thinks the Christian faith smiles on violence-for-fun against fellow boys. I’m confident that it doesn’t. My guess is that his decision to default has more to do with his view of who is against him on the mat than it does with actual violence. And I think his refusal has more to do with his cultural view of girls than his Christian faith.

To those who are sympathetic to Joel's decision, no matter how strong and tough Cassy may be — after all, she made it to the state competition with a 20-13 record — she is still a girl. Therefore, she is too weak. Her girl-hood prevents her from being seen as someone who is gifted by God to use her body and her muscles and her spirit to wrestle. She is a would-be victim on the wrestling mat. Or, she’s a sexual object. But a contender? Nah.

Every time I’ve thought about this story over the past couple of days, I think of my husband, Rafael, on his first day of class at the University of Illinois. To most students, having a girl sit down next to you wouldn’t have been any big deal — a thrill maybe even. But Rafi was coming from an all-boys prep school. He hadn’t sat next to a girl in school since eighth grade. He was thrown for a loop.

Rafi told me that he couldn’t think during that whole class period. He was so preoccupied with how to behave next to someone of the opposite sex. It was weeks before he focus if he sat next to a girl in class.

But Rafi overcame his issue by reminding himself of a startling truth: “She’s just a person.”

This story cracks me up. (Had I gone to college with him, I’d have been sure to sit extra close in class just to make him nuts.) But it’s very revealing, I think, to how we are as sexual, gendered beings.

We screw things up when we focus too much on gender, when we forget that while we are each male or female, and that's a wonderful thing, we are also just people.

Jesus seemed to remember this well. He never saw women the way his culture did. He never treated them as they were “supposed” to be treated. Women who were not to be touched, Jesus touched. Women who should have been shunned, Jesus included. Women whose opinions didn’t matter, Jesus sought. Women who were not to learn, Jesus taught.

That was the way Jesus behaved in a terrible-case scenario for women. He provided opportunities. He didn’t shirk away because things could be awkward. He didn’t ease up because women were weak. Jesus treated women like humans. Like breathing, feeling, thinking, capable people.

When Joel refused to wrestle Cassy, he took an opportunity away from her. An opportunity for her to shine using her own God-given strength and ability. An opportunity to win or lose, fair and square.

I don’t mean to harp on Joel. I’m sure he’s a good kid who clearly meant well. These thoughts aren’t so much for him as they are for the rest of us as we wrestle with these sorts of issues all the time.

As Christians, when faced with less-than-best-case scenarios, we need to be in the business of affording others equal opportunities. Usually this means expanding our view of other people beyond how our culture would have us see them or how we think they are and getting it more in line with how Jesus sees them. Doing this usually means things get awkward. Doing this means we’re stretched way beyond our comfort zone.

Doing this means we might need to step onto a mat and wrestle, not despite our faith but because of it.

Caryn Rivadeneira is a writer, speaker, and mother of three, and the author of Mama's Got a Fake I.D. as well as a book forthcoming from Tyndale House. She has written for Her.meneutics on parenting, boycotting Amazon, Halloween, burqas, fathers, Mother's Day, spanking, happiness, and pregnant Olympians.

Comments

While I understand and appreciate your points, I feel that if this young man felt God leading him to this decision than we can't really argue that! Maybe this is something that was not right for Joel, but would be okay for other young men. Maybe Joel has some weaknesses or struggles that would make this a bad choice for him or would/could lead him to sin that other boys may not struggle with.

It is impossible to de-sexualize the situation and the young man acted honorably. So if he didn't articulate carefully enough for all to grasp, he's a young person living out his faith. A rarity. True, " best-case scenarios almost never exist." Here's a best-case scenario to consider: a young man with integrity and faith.

It is not that Cassy is weaker nor that it is wrong for Joel to *touch* her. It is that wrestling is far from mere touching. Think about the holds and contact that occur during wrestling. How is a young man to execute those honorably and fairly when he must be careful about her breasts which are far different tissue on a young woman than a young man? It fundamentally changes the nature of the match to have a boy wrestle girl. He acted honorably and to pretend that this has something to do with equality ignores the basic physical differences that very much come into play in this sport.

You bring up some interesting points - certainly worth "wresting" through. As a guy who wrestled all the way through college I have to say that, whether you invoke Christ or not, girls should not be wrestling boys. This is, of course, just my opinion & there is freedom so I wouldn't draw a hard line here.

A couple of quick thoughts:
1) I'm not sure the reference to the way Jesus interacted with women has as smooth of an application as you imply. Yes...Jesus did interact with all manner of humanity in a way the reflected the goodness of God. I'm just not sure you can pull the application that boys should wrestle girls based off that information. In fact, I would say that if you wanted to use that as your argument it would be the reverse.

2) The current pull of culture is what is allowing women to compete against men in sports like wrestling & football. The cultural view of woman today is the opposite of what Joel stood against. The cultural view of women today consists of de-feminizing and stripping away roles that have, in the Bible & throughout church history, been accepted at face value. Joel seems to be fighting against what his culture says is okay - which is that there is no difference between a man and a woman. And I think the Bible is pretty clear that there are differences - not differences in value of course.

3) The sport wrestling is not like track & field...not like baseball/softball...not like soccer....not like golf. The full contact nature of the sport (like football) makes it different. I've got kids now - boys & girls. And for reasons totally unrelated I hope none of them ever want to wrestle. But if they decide that's a sport they want to try then they'll have to do it against their own gender.

You make some great points. I can't help comparing this situation to the introduction of women into some of the all-male institutions of higher education in the 18th, 19th, and even early 20th century. Those who wanted to limit women's access to universities would have also cited "fundamental differences" between men and women and "Biblical gender roles"; they would have claimed women's desire to be educated was "de-feminizing" to women and distracting to men; they likely would have pointed to men's "personal convictions" about sharing a classroom with women as incontrovertible truth that God didn't support female education.

Beliefs about the fragility and delicacy of women have their roots in the courtly romances of the Middle Ages, not the Bible.

Appreciate the essay, Caryn. Another point: have we Christians sometimes fallen into the very worldly trap of completely sexualizing contact and interaction between male and female? I picked up a book, popular in certain Christian circles, on "proper womanly roles" in a Christian bookstore last weekendand was horrified to read a hypothetical example of men in a church fully losing physiological control due to a young woman in a snug skirt (not even a mini-skirt!) standing up in a service! The point was that these poor helpless men had been assaulted and their resulting lust, resentment and shame was HER fault. Apparently the Godly solution is flour-sack dresses on women -- or burkas.

I know that mixed-sex wrestling is a much more delicate thing, but frankly brothers and sisters, mothers and sons and countless male-female friends play-wrestle with each other every day with no ill effects. It might be that it could be a very healthy thing for boys and girls if they were taught healthy internal boundaries to the point that interpersonal contact didn't automatically throw them into a sexual tizzy. Hey, it might even be a healthy thing for adults -- to see (even feel?) each other as teammates, co-workers or even equal competitors first rather than potential sexual partners.

On a side note, our "Christian" gender role sensibilities may be far less Christian than we suppose. When a teenager stretching his wings challenged me to an arm-wrestling match some time ago, his devout parents rushed in to stop him -- on the Biblical grounds that "if you lose against a girl you'll never live it down."

I so disagree with the blogger on this one, which is unusual for me. Amanda M. and John Dobbs hits on the head, so to speak. He's a 16 year old boy who is still in the learning stages of his faith and if he felt it wrong to wrestle a girl, then good for him to make that stand. It has nothing to do with the girl - especially since he's made it clear that its out of respect for her and not out of prejudice. I've only read one other article about this, but he doesn't seem to make any claims that girls shouldn't wrestle - but that he cannot wrestle a girl. That's two totally different issues.

I tend to agree with Cindy -- the whole idea is problematic. Caryn argued her case very well and I respect her opinion, but in the end I think Joel did the right thing in a very difficult situation. I don't see why girls need to be wrestling boys at all -- there are lots of sports where the sexes are kept separate, and they aren't even always contact sports. It's true we don't live in a perfect world, but we could be pushing for wrestling to be treated like some of those other sports.

Caryn, with all due respect, I think you're in the wrong here. Our son wrestled for a couple years in high school for a couple of years, and together we reached a decision that he wouldn't wrestle against girls -- not because of the alleged "violence" against women, but because he would have to violate the very things he believes in -- that you shouldn't touch a girl in certain places before marriage. Wrestling is a sport that involves quickness and leverage, and to get those advantages on your opponent, you need to feel free to touch, grab, shove, twist, etc., on ANY body part. If our son had to hesitate because his next logical move involved a hand on or near his opponent's crotch and/or breasts, then how would that be fair to him? He should feel free to wrestle without having to think about such things, and against another boy, those things are not an issue. Sorry, Caryn, but this was bad advice. Joel may not have stated his case clearly enough, but clearly there are biblical reasons for refusing to wrestle a girl. And not just b/c of the violence, but because of how and where a wrestler needs to touch his (or her) opponent.

In college, I dated a girl on the women's basketball team, and often played pick-up games with her and her teammates. In jostling for rebounds, there would sometimes be contact with certain body parts, but it was never intentional, and it was always quick and done with. But in wrestling, there must be *intentional* touching and grabbing of *specific* body parts -- hardly the same thing. Joel made the right call.

It seems your comments are informed much more by feminist cultural ideals than by a biblical worldview. First, their are definite role distinctions in Scripture which your post would blur. Second, while Jesus did treat women differently than the culture did, that does not mean this gentleman should have wrestled against a girl. Jesus may have touched women whom he was not supposed to touch, but he neither groped them nor wrestled them to the ground. Are there any particular passages of Scripture on which you build your argument, or just broad interpretive generalizations?

A much more biblically-informed blog post on this issue:

http://www.albertmohler.com/2011/02/22/boys-wrestling-girls-a-clash-of-worlds-and-worldviews/

Caryn, you are one of my heroes.

I would hope that, as an honorable *athlete* an opponent would be an opponent. Period. I really think that once they got on the mat and the match started, he should think of her as an equal, an athlete, not a sexualized object. By refusing to wrestle against her, he denies her the opportunity to compete in the sport. That is not a "sportsmanlike" act. It's not honorable, in my opinion. I don't care about the physical contact. It's not a sexual activity. Like the t-shirt in the photo says, "Get over it" and get on with the game!

I applaud Joel for making an unpopular decision, because he felt it was the right thing to do. Whether or not you agree with his reasons, he had the right to say "this isn't right for me". He is responsible before God for his decisions and if he wasn't at peace with that decision, or felt that it was not something God would want him to do, then he did the right thing.

In your article, you wrote that "Usually this means expanding our view of other people beyond how our culture would have us see them or how we think they are and getting it more in line with how Jesus sees them. Doing this usually means things get awkward. Doing this means we’re stretched way beyond our comfort zone." I believe that for Joel to walk away from this match, he had to go beyond the dictates of his culture - that he was a wrestler and that the most important thing is winning. He had to see his opponent as a person AND as a woman and try to see how Jesus would want him to see her and treat her. Things did get awkward, but he chose to do what he felt was right, in spite of that awkwardness. We need more thoughtful teenagers in our world to stand up and do what they feel is right, instead of what will be popular.

Sorry, Caryn, but it is very wrong of you to say that the boy "took away an opportunity" from the girl wrestler. Or that he "deprived" her of something. He did no such thing. It's rather rare for a girl to want to wrestle boys. Her choice of sport is strange, but apparently she has the right to make that decision. And he has a right to choose to wrestle only members of his own gender. And it's simply ridiculous to compare Jesus' companionship with women with a teenage boy engaging in a contact sport with a teenage girl.

It's obvious that the author was never a teenage male. To grapple on the wrestling mat with a teenage female is simply way outside the realm of acceptable behavior for a Christian young man. This is a rare gentleman. I applaud him loudly.

Briefly stated: I'm with Joel and Gina (above). Well put, Gina. And I don't think it is right to question Joel's motives, superimposing your own skepticism on his expression of faith.

I suggest that Caryn play wrestle with her husband Rafael a few times in the bedroom over the next couple of weeks. If no sexual intercourse ever occurs after any one of these episodes, then I accept her point.

"So our job as Christians is to figure out how best to live and behave in these broken scenarios, how to be “salt and light” in every arena." --- Joel Northup did do that. He stated his beliefs, complimented Casey, and forfeited. But this blogger is certainly not "light" instead choosing to cast a shadow on Joel.

Over the weekend I saw the movie "Black Swan." I served on the board of a ballet company, and it reminded me of what the artistic director (a woman) said as she was encouraging boys to try out for the company: "You get to touch girls in ways you wouldn't be able to otherwise." More so in coed wrestling. Come on, it's okay to draw some boundaries in life, and on the playing field.

Thank you, Caryn, for the best piece I've seen in Christianity Today in months, if not years.

We have young women in our community who wrestle -- with boys, since there are so few girls who wrestle -- and your story will help me support them. They hear far, far too much of the predictable sort of thing most of your commenters have given us. I'm wondering if any of the commenters who perceive wrestling as somehow sexual have ever actually wrestled.

Again, thank you.

"We screw things up when we focus too much on gender ..."
The logical conclusion to your opinion, then, is that God "screwed up." If He had created only one gender, we wouldn't need to distinguish.
His focus on gender is sharp and clear; if He didn't consider gender important and worthy of focus, He wouldn't have bothered to create two models, nor would He have bothered to so clearly delineate our roles.
And your opinion regarding best-case scenarios:
"So our job as Christians is to figure out how best to live and behave in these broken scenarios, how to be “salt and light” in every arena."
That's dangerously close to a situational morality. We don't "figure out how best to live and behave in these broken scenarios." We filter everything through Scripture, and then proceed, regardless of how it appears.
By refusing to wrestle, Joel clearly was salt and light. How would wrestling Cassy have furthered the Gospel?

This isn't news and it doesn't deserve the limelight it seems to be getting. Did Jacob check out the gender of his opponent before his nightlong wrestling match, in Genesis 32? Does Joel Northrup investigate the sexual preferences of his male opponents so that he will not have to worry about arousing them? Why would anyone think that a female wrestler is not aware of her own body and protect the "sensitive parts," as males do? Joel has apparently been suckered into matching up "faith" with naive chivalry. I suppose "Christian" schools should not have mixed cheerleading squads, or allow pairs figure skating with any "lifts," because of the kind of "touching" that occurs. Oh, but we also can't have girls touching each other because that might be erotic for some of them, so we'll have to rethink cheerleading entirely . . .

So Caryn: when your teenage son asks to have sleepover with girls because "we should treat girls the same way we do guys," are you going to cheerfully send him on his way?

Good luck with that.

As a male, and a feminist, I can't disagree with you more. And I quote James 4, "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."

I was surprised to see the headline for this post, and very surprised to read it through. Two points.

First, high-school boys should not be wrestling girls, in my opinion. I was a wrestler in high school, and the sport is all about pushing, forcing, and overpowering another person. Sorry, but I would not want my son practicing those physical motions and emotional connections with a young woman.

Second, comments like this are way over the line: "My guess is that his decision to default has more to do with his view of who is against him on the mat than it does with actual violence. And I think his refusal has more to do with his cultural view of girls than his Christian faith."

Unless you have spoken with the young man in question, how can you make such guesses? How can you bring such assumptions into a public spotlight about a 16-year-old boy?

He made a decision, he cited the reasons for his decision language that is clear and does allow for guesses and/or assumptions. And that is the end of it.

I applaud Joel for his character and courage. May good men and women recognize and reward him generously as he practices his faith. (if "character" is an unfamiliar word, you can see it played out by high school men and women in my Christian novel EARTH IS NOT ALONE--sample chapters available free, also in Kindle--where a "Cassy" for Casimir, a guy incidentally, is a hero alongside several heroines who do important things that (often) women do best.) --former prof at SUNY

OUTSTANDING article!

It's a shame that our country has become so overcome by gender equality nonsense that girls are allowed to compete in boy's wrestling. (Of course, the reverse is not true - boys are not allowed to compete in girl's sports, are they?)

Thankfully, there are young men like Joel who are willing to take principled stands against the culture. This guest blogger is either deliberately trying to stir up controversy with a Biblically undefensible position, or simply has no understanding of what it means to be honored as the weaker vessel.

I applauded when I heard Joel's story on the radio! I disagree totally with the author of this article. My husband and two sons all agreed that only a woman would not understand the implications of the man-handling of a girl that is required by wrestling holds.

God created men and women as equals, but they are not the same! Being a young adolescent male is difficult enough in this culture, without expecting them to treat girls as though they are gender-neutral!

Having said this, I appreciated reading this post and all of the thoughtful comments!

Good for you, Joel, and may God bless you for your faithfulness to what you believe.

This young man is to be commended for not giving in to the lusts of his flesh to wrestle with a young woman. Katelyn Beaty, your misplaced self-confidence in expressing such a sickening opinion is alarming to find in what is supposed to be a respectable Christian publication. You have no idea what it is like to be a young man, and you have no idea what it is that God needs to overcome in a young man in order for him to be useful in the Lord's hands.

I think this blog post is a big swing and a miss... The biggest issue I have with it is that it appears the author was writing primarily from a feminist point of view rather than that of a Christian Woman. Also, the scripture that she used was not handled in an appropriate manor – in keeping with their context.
1. The usage of Jesus dealing with various women in the Bible was not Jesus primarily looking past their gender (although he did look past their gender), it was always in the context of their salvation and sanctification. To use these examples to buoy the argument for boys and girls wrestling misses the mark. The scripture that hits this head on is 1 Thessalonians 4:3 “For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality…” Teenage boys and girls have no business wrestling each other. It can only lead to sin.
2. Quoting the author again; “we need to be in the business of affording others equal opportunities”. Where in the bible does that come from? In Genesis 1:27 it says: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” This means we are different – designed that way by our Creator… Using Jesus last words to His disciples in Matthew 28:19-20, he said "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Evidently, Jesus thought that we should be about preaching the Gospel and making disciples, not “affording others equal opportunities”. Lastly, using the authors examples of the various women in the bible, Jesus seemed to be more concerned with the women’s sin, justification and sanctification rather than their opportunities.
3. It doesn’t seem like the author thought at all about the Cassy Herkelman’s heart – what will wrestling boys do to her? What will boys think of her? Will they think she’s an easy mark because she likes to roll around on mats with boys? What about her soul?
Maybe because Joel Northrup refused to wrestle Cassy Herkleman, she will think about the weightier matters of life, repent of her sin and trust Christ for her salvation… That’s what I hope for anyway.

But I wonder why he thinks the Christian faith smiles on violence-for-fun against fellow boys. I’m confident that it doesn’t. My guess is that his decision to default has more to do with his view of who is against him on the mat than it does with actual violence. And I think his refusal has more to do with his cultural view of girls than his Christian faith

Just an unhappy "woman" trying to spackle over her seething prejudice with "Christianese" verbage.

@ Andrew -- of course, among many healthy married couples a hug, a walk, a meal out, a shared laugh or a shared task completed (even something so mundane as cleaning the bathroom) would very possibly result in a moment or several of intimacy. The difference is, in a Godly marriage emotional, physical and situational proximity are designed to lead to sexual intimacy. This isn't the same in other relationships, and, as I mentioned above, in many everyday circumstances such activities normally pose no danger unless there's a serious problem.

As far as contact sports per se, men and women (and girls and boys) have been sparring and grappling for years in martial arts and self-defense training without problems. Self-discipline and focus are part of the virtues of competitive athletic sports, as well as professionalism, or so it seems to me.

Hats off to Joel!!! Caryn, you are so far off on this one.

Caryn,
Are you kidding me? Are you daring gender role conservatives to reveal their 'gender bias' for all to see and look down upon...? Equality of rights to God's grace, mercy, justice, compassion, fairness, etc. doesn't mean men and women are the same any more than gender designation in language means feminine or masculine nouns indicates genitalia of a specific type on say, a ship or plane.

I dare you to set up a wrestling club with your male neighbors and friends invited. Absurdum ad infinitum...

Wrestlers' arms and hands are used to exert as much physical pain as possible through twisting, locks, grabs, holds, etc. in order to force the opponent to the 'pinned' position. That would mean no holds barred on pushing on a female opponents breasts, using them as leverage points with your arms, legs, head and hands to force pain and move her to a pinned position.

Read up on some the various views of 'equality' and 'tolerance' as used in both the feminist and politically correct debates. Yeah both sides, to get your bearings, then head on over to 'logical fallacies' http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ to get into the underlying issues going on in the language. Begging the question, straw man, etc.

If you don't have time...enjoy some C.S.Lewis writings on modernity, Dorothy Sayers - "Are Women Human?", Equality of faith does not mean the same physically. Should women be treated exactly the same in the military, sent in harms way with the infantry? Recon Marines? Rangers? Seals and my black ops buddies in the unnamed agencies? Read up on what happened to some of the women captured by the fair minded folks in Iraq...
It is just enough...anyway I have to take my daughters to the shooting range for practice.

Joel makes a stand as a role model for our times. Additionally, he raises a few great considerations well worth asking.

1. In the beginning God created them male and female to live in union, not competition, correct?
2. When do interactive situations cross the line and become immoral?
3. Why do we allow postmodernism and culture liberalism influence truth?

Great stand Joel, don't back down, proceed forward and continue to make a stand for Jesus Christ.

The question is not why doesn't a boy want to wrestle a girl, but rather, why does a girl want to wrestle boys? What, indeed, did she need to prove or want to experience?

Have you ever gone to a wrestling match or done any wrestling on the floor with a teenager? Your arguments make no sense and this case has nothing to do with equality! I usually love this column but you really missed it this time. You got lots of comments, was that the only purpose? Sad!

Thank you for weighing in on this conversation, nc. You are right, I have no idea what it is like to be a young man, and can assure you that I have demonstrated misplaced confidence in many writing assignments. But not with this post, as I did not write it. Please double-check bylines before responding directly to an author.

Wow. Hot button! What's amazing to me is that the first draft I wrote of this piece focused largely on the sex issue--but since everything I've read about Joel seems to suggest that he didn't wrestle her because it was too VIOLENT, I backed off that position.

It seems, according to many of you, that indeed wrestling is a very sexual sport. I once dated the son of a high-school wrestling coach. I remember being told how people used to give wrestlers all sorts of grief for it being a "gay" sport and this coach telling me how offensive that was because it wasn't a sexual sort of thing at all. How wrong that coach was, apparently!

Honestly, people, what if your son were gay? Would you let him wrestle? I ask that not to raise more hackles, but in all earnestness.

Also, is it then a sin for a man to be an OB/GYN? An ER doc? A radiologist? To be a ballroom dancer? A ballet dancer? A cheerleader? An actor? A chiropractor? A masseur?

Again, not to be over-the-top, but to consider this all seriously.

True, I never was a teenage boy. I realize their urges surpass those I felt as a girl (or so I'm told). But I tired long ago of the male libido being the reason to keep women from participating in life as God may have called them too.

Listen, I love Jesus and am just trying to follow him here. Not trying to cause anyone to stumble or sin or have something embarrassing happen in a skin-tight wrestling outfit (though I've gotten private emails about the "erection 'time-out' rules" in high school boys wrestling. Really?).

I'd tell you all I totally think women should fight on the front lines, but I'm afraid where THAT will go......

Blessings to you all! So nice to know we can disagree about this sort of stuff and still be brothers and sisters in Christ.

You're nuts! A teenage boy, claiming Faith in Jesus Christ has all he can do to keep himself pure. Sexual images assault from every corner. Sex is in the music, in the ads and in the hallways of school. This young man takes a stand and says, "I cannot in good conscience put my hands all over a girl." (Have you SEEN wrestling??) It's not exactly the same as running. Or even playing basketball. The close physical contact was probably too much for a young adolescent learning to control his sexual urges. I didn't read the responses, but I bet money that MEN would find your position ludicrous. Just sayin...

too violent? Do you not see the connection between violence and sex? And if it was violence--do you think violence against women, even in sport is ok? Really. They pay you for this? Lucky you.

hmm, I posted twice. The first one showed up as from "caryn." oops, sorry, she's the author, right? and the second showed up as anon.
Sorry Caryn. I know I jumped on you. But I'm so sick of Christianity being hijacked by feminism, political correctness, et.al.

Call sin sin, and wrong wrong. We must not fall into the worldly trap of calling evil good, and good evil.

This only shows how screwed up the world in which we exist has become. The same arguments that this woman uses for boy/girl wrestling are used for justifying homosexuality--that one's gender doesn't matter, it is just a matter of personal preference. That is tommyrot. It is also a part of the women pushing themselves into every sphere of life traditionally belonging to men. The most egregious example of this is the women in the military. Do I have to explain the kinds of problems that arise because of this? If so, then we are really down the tubes. Furthermore, we are into role reversal--women pushing men out of their rightful role as family provider, so they become housekeepers and baby minders. In their dreamworld they fantasize how their men could be rigged to produce the babies, but thankfully, or hopefully, that will be for another generation. God help us! JET

We have a world so divided -- some say this and others say that. Where is the answer? There is only one source of all Truth, simply and plainly, and that is the Holy Scriptures. "Did God really say?" the devil asked Eve. God doesn't say Middle- and High-School males shouldn't wrestle Middle- and High-School females; on the other hand, God does really say how Middle- and High-School males are to treat Middle- and High-School females. How men are to treat women. And vice-versa.
The Song of Solomon is filled with comments, there are several Proverbs, but the one comment I'll quote about behavior toward folks of the opposite sex is from Paul, found at Titus 2:3–8 (ESV) "3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. 6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. 7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us."
How old-fashioned can one guy be!
Girls, you are to be self-controlled, kind, submissive (not doormat-like), for the purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Boys, you are to be self-controlled, model of good works, showing integrity, dignity, and sound speech, for the purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Does this mean boys shouldn't play TSA agents with girls? Does this mean girls shouldn't play TSA agents with boys? Seems to me that wrestling and the actions we hear about the TSA are too similar. Even if it is girls on girls and boys on boys.
Since my days at High School (a long time ago), I've thought wrestling was not a good sport; in my adult life I've been shown through Scripture just why it is not a good sport.
However, the question comes down to this: do we take the world's standards and say "no" to God's? Or do we take God's standards and say "no" to the world's? I think my position is clear. God must give us the standards for us (because we are sinful created beings) and we must follow His standards (because He is God).
I've studied feminism since the days of Betty Friedan and fear it has is part of what is boiling us like frogs; sadly, the young people I teach these days simply think wrong is right and right is wrong with regard to gender roles.
There is much more to be said on this topic, but this'll do for now.

This would shock Dr. L. Nelson Bell who started CT.
Genderless is counter to that which God created. Man. Woman.
The push and the agendas to change that have been around for centuries. One only has to know..study...how nations, countries, kingdoms have fallen by going against The Bible.
Girls want to be boys. Boys want to be girls. Women want to be men.. Men want to be women.
The last times.....read the Bible and you shall see these days were prophesized centuries ago.
It is not a question of faith. It is the right for one, boy or girl, to choose whether or not to wrestle the opposite sex.
Opposite is the word. Wake up you who want the world to revolve around you. It does not.
I applaud this young man’s decision. I question the girls motive.

As soon as I saw the headline, I knew the blog was written by a woman. Forgive my impertinence, but you have never been a teenage boy. Like it or not, boys are easily aroused. The boy is to be commended for his good sense.

The purpose of two sexes is procreation. With two sexes there is a mixing of genes that helps to keep us stong physically. To aid us, God has included hormones, pheremones, endorphens, etc. Excessive contact brings all these things into play, regardless of social convictions. To avoid sexual stimulation one should refrain from ANY excessive touching, feeling, or anything that promotes the actions of all those natural helps toward sexuality. Joel knew this and defaulted rather than expose himself OR HIS OPPONENT to that temptation and lust. I give great thanks to God for having made Joel strong enough to follow what he knew was right. The fact that he also realized that it was a mistake to be violent toward a woman is also greatly in his favor. His postion is not against equality for women, which I hope is not equality in violence, nor does it show him to be against the proper respect for her as a person. I also believe that the author should look at the WHOLE Bible when using it to support an opinion. She missed whole pages of the Bible in her reading to come up with such a worldly interpretation of Scripture to bolster a shallow article.

I'm on your side, Joel. If you were my son, I would reward you greatly for your stand. Wonderful!!!

How did Caryn Rivadeneira get it so wrong on this one? It is puzzling. It seems so self evident. What's going on at CT? I just had a memory. I remember wrestling with my sister as a teenager and getting embarrassingly aroused. I put an end to that real quick. I sympathize with this guy's distress and his desire to be pleasing to the Lord. This is not a feminist or cultural issue.

I applaud your journalistic ability to 'hook' readers with that title ( it drew me in). As for the rest of the article,I wish we would just leave the kid alone and stop speculating on hidden struggles or motives. What is the going rate for trashing someones best intentions to honor God through obeying his covictions.

Regardless, the man made a decision and accepted the consequences. He did not ask for special rules, or a change in the rules. According to the latest moral standard from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, he exercised his "bound conscience" as he is free to do and is therefore correct in his decision.

I sometimes don't get this magazine which prides itself on being "evangelical conviction". One minute is reviewing films like 'Sex and the City' - the next it is dogmitizing feminist ideals.

All the assumptions about what motivated this young man to do what he did are unwarranted.

This article reflects an author who is more engaged in a power struggle of the sexes than one who is comitted to Biblical truth.

"And I think his refusal has more to do with his cultural view of girls than his Christian faith." So, according to you, Joel is both a sexist and a liar.

Caryn, I just read your response to everyone's comments and I must say that the questions you pose are absurd and not even related to the topic you posted about. Your lack of reasoning is plain scary to me.

Why is a young male at the highschool age whether at state competition or not required to wrestle all callers just to be there. He's not in the wrestling business as an adult being paid with winnings/paycheck, is he. Common sense should be used here. Our earth Father taught his boys keep your hands to yourself (meaning no physical contact with the opposite sex until both of you are old enough, meaning after 18), your hands belong only to your wife, you never, never hit or abuse a woman (causing marks of any kind during physical contact). Now a days, knowing what medicine has learned, I say don't cause future cancer or physical damage of female organs, etc., etc. for health reasons too. Where are the fathers of these girls and boys. Boys and girls shouldn't be touching each other period and sports is not an excuse to use to do so and the state and adults shouldn't be promoting it. It's too close to sexual contact even if agreed upon. If there are no girls to wrestle, get some girls, God, did the adults ever think of the obvious. If no girls come forth, that just might tell these people at the state level something and they need to start building their state woman's wrestling league or young girls will just have to wait for adulthood to join woman's wrestling. There's a lot of stuff you have to work andor wait for in life, gees. And Jesus didn't have physical contact with the women he saved or those who followed him. Teaching about his Father was in his mind for women, not contact sports or any kind of physical contact.

@Sue: Sorry to scare you! I posed those questions because everyone seems caught up in the potential sexual aspect of this. When, in fact, Joel cited only violence concerns. Not sexual. But I find it to be true. If, as so many have said, our hands are only ALWAYS to touch our spouses and that any gross-gender touching is sexual, then we've got a lot to rethink as Christians. That's all.

@Edmond: I don't think he's a liar. And he's not necessarily sexist. Just misguided, I think. I still think that if he thinks it's violent to wrestle a girl (and it may be!), then it's violent to wrestle a boy.

@Aiden: Easy what you accuse me of, friend. I'm not perfect. But Jesus is the one I follow. His Word is the truth I seek. His Name is the one I want glorified.

@Everyone else: I'll try to answer more later. Gotta get kids tucked in to bed!

Best!

Caryn

"Doing this usually means things get awkward. Doing this means we’re stretched way beyond our comfort zone.

Doing this means we might need to step onto a mat and wrestle, not despite our faith but because of it."

Sometimes that "awkward" feeling we are experiencing can be a warning that we are stepping over the bounds of being IN the world to the arena of being OF the world. This is something that needs to be discerned before blindly "stepping onto the mat to wrestle"

I'm an adult now, but a former scholastic wrestler. I would have never wrestled a girl and our coach always gave us the option of default. This isn't about egalitarianism, Christianity, sex, or anything. No guy wants to wrestle a girl.

@ Caryn: In a sense I am not concerned that you think wrestling with a guy and girl is ok per se, however I am bothered about the angle you take to express your point. Your biblical arguments are weak and quoted out of context (as others have shown) Also your judgments upon the boys motives are out of line.

As a researcher I came across this story yesterday. It is clear the issue was a moral problem for the kid. I note that you said you 'applauded his decision' - but in the end by judging his motives it really was a back handed complement.
Even if you can argue a legitmate case for girls and guys wrestling (which I don't think you have done well) - an important teaching in scripture is; whatever we do we should do with a 'clear conscience'. This boy could not do that - so he wisely opted out. If my memory serves me correctly the girl's father understood the decision was not an insult to woman in general - but an personal ethical choice.

If he was motivated mostly by the issue of violence towards girls or if it was mostly an issue of sexuality (or both factors combined) - he felt he had to act according to his convictions. You have no right to assess his motives - leave that to God.

If the boy was mostly concerned about issues relating to violence against woman - then instead of seeing his real issue about his view of woman (making this a feminist argument) I would suggest this indicates some young men still believe they have a responsibilty to be a 'gentlemen' towards woman - and the wrestling ring is not conducive to such. And it seems his parents/ church have taught him well.

As to the complex issues of sexuality (and if this was a factor in his choice) - many of the points that have been raised here are well made. If he was led to make this choice for this reason - then he should be aplauded by all for such self-control. I personally think I can learn from his example. The temptation to bridge the boundaries in this sexualised world without necessarily engaging in the act of sex (ie lap dancing) is so strong for us young men.

You have wrongly made this an issue about sociological views about gender - when really the evidence suggest he made a choice about what is appropriate contact between genders.

Well, the "evidence" I based this on was Joel saying wrestling was too violent. The commenters here have made it about sex. So, I did make this a sociological thing since I find it interesting that Joel views wrestling violent (and sinful) when one's opponent is a girl but not when it's a boy.

I do think it's fair to assume it's because Joel probably views girls more victim-like from that perspective.

If Joel had come out and said he would be driven too wild with lust, I'd have had a different opinion. Frankly, this may be the real reason behind it, but I don't want to speculate too much HERE. I wonder if wrestlers wore baggier uniforms if all this might have been avoided.....

For people who are supposed to be defined by charity, I find quite a lack of it here. I think people are misunderstanding Caryn's main point, which is not to vilify Joel, but to raise a fair question on whether his decision (which he says was based on his Christian faith) was in fact an appropriate decision for a Christian to make. Certainly, you have the right to choose whether you agree with Joel or not, but I don't think Caryn should be lambasted for raising the question or for giving her particular opinion. If you want to disagree with her, then at least do it respectfully and charitably.

Next point: the fact is, boys and girls DO often wrestle other. Quote from the USA Today article on this story: "In most states, girls wrestlers compete against boys. Hawaii, California and Texas have girls-only state wrestling tournaments." All this fairly vitriolic discussion about whether it's appropriate for girls and boys to wrestle is beside the point. They do. In most states in this country.

The crux of the article, in my opinion, is this statement: "When Joel refused to wrestle Cassy, he took an opportunity away from her. An opportunity for her to shine using her own God-given strength and ability. An opportunity to win or lose, fair and square." Cassy had earned the right to be at that tournament, whether she was a girl or a boy. She had earned the right to a fair fight. I think the relevant question is, how often are women denied opportunities to demonstrate their full worth and giftedness, simply because they are women? I would hope we all agree that it happens way too often in the world, and I would also hope we agree that Jesus would not stand for dismissing the gifts and abilities of women simply because they are women.

We are not talking about power struggles here. We're not talking about some sort of hidden feminist agenda. We are talking about what it means that both men and women are created in the image of God, but women have not always had the freedom to fully be the people God has created them to be. For me, that was the major point to note in Caryn's piece. And I'm glad that she made it.

"When Joel refused to wrestle Cassy, he took an opportunity away from her...She had earned the right to a fair fight. I think the relevant question is, how often are women denied opportunities to demonstrate their full worth and giftedness, simply because they are women?"

Then you say "We are not talking about power struggles here". That's exactly what you seem to be talking about, especially when you "simply because they are woman".

Saying he took an oppurtunity away from her is gross hyperbole. She continues (or had continued) in the tournament to next round. Moreover of all the genuine cases of when men truely have wrongly stripped woman of rights they should be entitiled to - come on - missing one round of a wrestling bout against one opponent is not such as occasion. After all this is not an issue with the organisers of the event - so the whole "rights" thing simply does not apply here.

Tonight I went grocery shopping with my son, who is in third grade. (Don't worry; this is related.) On the way into the store he said: "Well, the girls finally found a game they can beat us at in gym." I stopped in my tracks. "Speaking as a girl," I said, "I'm not surprised." We talked for a while about the game in question and the diverse abilities of all people to succeed in their own, sometimes surprising, ways. I wanted my son to come out of the conversation respecting his classmates and seeing them as people first. I hope he did, or at least that he began to orient his thoughts in this way.

Then I came home and read Caryn's post and the ensuing responses.

Thank you, Caryn, for writing about this event and for giving us all the opportunity to reflect about the issues raised here. We are wrestling with angels, indeed, when we tackle topics of gender, sexuality, and our rights as citizens and Christians. I am thinking about my little boy again, who is getting ready for bed now. I am about to go in and read to him—By the Banks of Plum Creek. (Oh, we read Farmer Boy, too; we're equal opportunity readers.) Maybe not tonight, but someday, I am going to tell him that God wants everyone to play to the best of their abilities. Girls, boys, men, women-God gave them all a chance to find and work from their strengths, never mind the Laws that might have limited anyone at a particular time—Jesus time, say. Or the Middle Ages.

Someday I'll also tell my boy that his gender should never, ever be used as an excuse for anything--be it violence, success, or desire. A male athlete shouldn't wrestle a female athlete because he might get aroused? To me this smacks of biological determinism. I believe God created us to be more complex, and blessed, than genetically bound.

Aidan, what I originally meant by my comment about power struggles is that I saw the issue as being more of a "personhood" issue, not a power issue. Although, now that you mention it, you're right: of course power does figure into the equation, in the sense that women often are powerless to stop the process of being viewed primarily by their gender and not by their personhood.

Karen, what you wrote was so lovely, so eloquent, that I just want to point everyone to your post instead of reading what I say! And my three boys all loved those Little House books, too. =)

The Bible makes it clear that men are to act like men, and women are to act like women. Wrestling does not fit the biblical model for a self-respecting woman who upholds her femininity to the scriptural standard.

I praise this young man for standing up for his faith and the biblical standard. Citing his Christian faith is a perfectly legitimate and theologically sound reason for not wrestling this young girl.

If only parents would spend more time teaching our daughters how to be biblical women instead of engaging in masculine sports such as wrestling. What is this world coming to? Are we going to send our women into battle next? Or have we done that already?

Sad state of affairs.

Honestly, I think it is all in the eye of the beholder. I am a 16 year-old boy and wrestled a girl every day for practice last year. Was it slightly awkward sometimes? Yes. Were my intentions pure? Yes. Now, if this is a guy that struggle heavily with pornography and that sort of stuff, it would not be appropriate for him to wrestle because he would have those intentions in the back of his head. In the end, it all comes down to the wrestler.

I mean, I might not want to go to a school because it is secular. Is that wrong? No. I might want to go to a school because it is secular. Is that wrong? Yes or no. Yes if I go because I want to get used to living in the real world. No if I only want to go because of parties and binge drinking. In the end, it is all up to the personal feelings of the wrestler and whether or not they are ready.

Thank you, Caryn, for this post. I heard about this story a few days ago and it has been on my mind quite a bit.

I admit that there are legitimate modesty issues with women and men touching each other in this way. I tend to think that this kind of touching is not sexualized at all, or shouldn't be for shame. However I really don't think this is a modesty issue, at least not as Joel's pastor described it. From an AP piece on the story:

We believe in the elevation and respect of woman and we don't think that wrestling a woman is the right thing to do. Body slamming and takedowns, that full contact sport is not how to do that

That's from Rvd. Bill Randles who is described as the pastor of Joel's church. It implies that women need to be kept separate - the same justification that was so often used to deny women the vote, among other things. Women were made not to be angels worshiped from afar, but as helpmates. I think it's wrong to treat women as something that can't be "sullied."

Joel was wise. The question is why wrestling? Do you see female tennis players against men or female hockey players against men or even in golf? Those responsible for such a match would appear to promote an imbalanced need for exbitionism, regardless of who would win. In wrestling the body contact is intense and possibly hurtful. Where has the innate rule against hitting a woman gone? Yes ! the woman apparently asks for it and probably other men will take her on, but at least not Joel who is to be commended. This match in my view is akin to mud wrestling and serves only as eye candy and as quasi legitimized moral denoument. You cannot equate Jesus' touch of women to mixed gender wrestling.

This article is brilliant and should be used as a model for all further articles dealing with any reason given by someone for their actions.

First, give the stated reason then accuse the person of having some other motive or motives other than the one clearly stated.

Second, having dismissed out of hand the reason given by the person involved, substitute your own "guesses" and assumptions as being more worthy of consideration.

Third, make it clear that "our job as Christians is to figure out how best to live and behave in these broken scenarios, how to be “salt and light” in every arena", then insist that this principle applies to you only.

Fourth, ask "what would Jesus do" and support your position with completely irrelevant examples.

Fifth, make sure to take what is a fairly straightforward matter and contort it into something completely different.

Sixth, take scripture out of context just as long as you make your point.

Seven, while you are doing all of the above make sure readers understand that you have no particular axe to grind and that you are being completely unbiased.

Eight, take up an issue for which you have no particular feelings (wrestling)and know little or nothing about (boys' sexuality)in order to promote an issue about which you are particularly passionate and on which you consider yourself an expert(gender).

Ninth, of course if your arguments are all one-sided and unsubstantiated that will bring out the critics and garner lots of response.

Ten, look for another major issue and repeat.

1. Just because the young man did not mention sexual concerns does not mean he did not think about them. Once again, having been a young man and wrestled a little, I totally agree that men should not be wrestling women.
2. If the young man did this to a woman off the mat, he would be taken to jail. (I imagine someone saying the same about two men wrestling off the mat, but then it becomes questionable. All a man has to do is touch a woman against her will, and he is automatically guilty.) I totally agree that men should be taught to never hit or "manhandle" a woman.
3. As someone said earlier, the young man did not take away any of her opportunities--she continued to wrestle in the tournament.

Unfortunately, I think what we need to know about the author is summed up in this: This story cracks me up. (Had I gone to college with him, I’d have been sure to sit extra close in class just to make him nuts.) But it’s very revealing, I think, to how we are as sexual, gendered beings.
-- Instead of respecting a person's dignity, she sees nothing wrong with sidling up to him to make him feel uncomfortable. Values guide you forward in life while trophies keep you looking back.

I wonder . . . if we'd all been alive when Eric Liddell refused to run on a Sunday, would we have had this heated a discussion over it? :-)

(For the record, I think competing on a Sunday is acceptable, but I respect the strength of Liddell's faith and convictions.)

Caryn -
Please stop blogging and responding. You hurt the cause of Christ every time you do... Please pick up your bible and read to have your mind renewed.

I have wrestled for 35 years and have coached for 25, and while I have found it to be uncomfortable to wrestle girls/women because of how wrestlers have to touch each other, the use of scripture to support either side is ridiculous! Go out and do your best and stop your whining! If girls want to wrestle, deal with it - stop using scripture to hide your fear.

Caryn, I am appalled at your attitude. Your own statement: " But in this world, best-case scenarios almost never exist. So our job as Christians is to figure out how best to live and behave in these broken scenarios, how to be “salt and light” in every arena." reveals your misunderstanding of "salt and light."

Thank you, Caryn for having the courage to write this. I'm still thinking through all that you said - and a lot of the comments I see here! Obviously this blog touched something in a lot of people.

I love how you pointed out that Jesus interacted with women (and really all people...)in ways that were completely counter-cultural in his time, but totally in line with God's view. That is what I'm taking away from this post - thinking and praying about how I can follow him in that.

Debate, dialog, compassion, conversation. I love it when blogposts inspire these things and appreciate that yours bravely do so. I always love reading what you write, whatever the topic, as you leave me mulling complex topics for days. Thank you for addressing a tricky subject.

@Timothy of 1:24AM. Brilliant. Well-stated. Thank you. The author won't understand. But hopefully somebody at CT will.

Hermeneutics claims "The Christianity Today women's blog provides news and analysis from the perspective of evangelical women."
Sorry, this blog on Joel's wrestling dilemma does not speak for me as an evangelical woman. Joel speaks for me. When you look at the whole of Scripture there is no conclusion you could reach other than this would be inappropriate sport between genders. I can't think of any passage of Scripture to support it but plenty to place it into the questionable realm. I am concerned about the direction we are leading young women with all this "let's be treated equally" within every area of our lives now the banner unfurled among evangelicalism. I am proud to be a woman. But I do not need to be a man or act like one to prove it.
I applaud Joel's parents for raising such a fine young man. I would be proud to call him my son.
He would be the kind of young man I would want a daughter to marry.
My heart breaks for what I see happening in this "evangelical feminist movement". Ladies, you will get what you are striving for but at great cost. It will only produce weak men of whom you have no respect. It will only create a Church that is run by women while men step aside.
You will reap what you sow. We should be more like Deborah who was willing to do whatever it took to encourage Barak (men) back into his rightful role as leader. She is not mentioned in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews,he is. I suppose gender concerned women would like to have a meeting on that and vote for a change in the text.
CT please bring on a blogger who will also represent the other side for evangelical women. You are becoming very one-sided.

On the principle of supposed "violence towards women" (and his Christian faith permits violence towards men?), you (Caryn) are right about the double-standard. On the general principle of salt-and-light, you are right. But the sexual implications are the deal breaker for me. Sorry, men and women don't belong "on the mat" together unless they are married to each other. Joel made the right decision, even if for the wrong reason.

I agree with Matt. But I am not sure he could legally state sexual issues as his reason. I am not even convinced that there are not legal sexual issues that will not eventually arise out of mixed gender wrestling. And like Matt, the inappropriatness of the holds etc between men and women are the deal breaker. I would hasten to say that a young man who signs up for wrestling probably never wrestled even with the idea that he might have to take on a female. It is time for us to THINK ladies. THINK of all the implications and stop fighting to be equal in every area of life. Please get a blogger who represents the other side fo0r evangelical women who are content with their roles and wish to fight to keep them.

The author is naive or an enemy of the Judeo-Christian West simply doing her best to destroy traditional values.

We have combat based-competition among young men to teach them about striving and self defense and give them confidence to learn to fight our enemies, our enemies who would slaughter and rape women in the name of allah, marx or nihilism.

Your failure to recognize this reveals you to be uneducated and/or unread in history and unfit to be commenting on the subject.

Second, young men are testosterone driven, For you to not acknowledge that teenage boys grappling with young women will result in tumescence is unbelievable. Are you a lesbian?

Third, the young man forced to fight a your woman is put in a lose-lose situation.

If he wins, he "beat a girl", if he loses, he "lost to a girl".

You want girls wrestling? Go to your lesbian sympathizers in professional women's sports and in hollywood AND HAVE THEM PUT THE MONEY until enough girls are interested so you can suck more money out of tax payers for your lesbian agenda.

You are wrong about Joel's thinking. In sum - his reaction tells us he does not trust his school or the administrators. He believes that they would sacrifice a girl and subject her to a pummelling, all in the name in political correctness and serving the ideology of their bureaucracy.

And given the attitudes of our educational bureaucracy - he would be correct.

Holy personal attacks, Batman! Some people accusing Caryn of being anti-Christian aren't exactly reflecting Christ themselves.

Oh how the mighty have fallen. Does anyone believe Carl F.H. Henry would have sanctioned this article?

All else aside, Joel put his Christian beliefs ahead of potential worldly success. He is to be commended for that.

I wish I could reply to more of these. Not that I think most of you care what I have to say. ha!

But Eli's comment way up there has stuck with me. As he offered both good and horrid advice. Open my Bible and renew my mind? YES! Amen.

But me not writing again because I "hurt the cause of Christ" every time I do? Well, there's a problem. Because I believe God has called me to write. Yes, I do so imperfectly. I make mistakes. I p*** people off. Obviously.

But I never write anything without spending time in prayer and seeking God. I'm not saying he gives me the words or that what I say is beyond reproach, but just that I seek to do his will. Following his calling. Often to say things others might be afraid to say.

While maybe I do hurt the cause of Christ at times, I also hope--at least with this story--that somewhere if there's a girl who loves to wrestle and feels "wrong" because she's "like a man" as many of you have said, that maybe she'll understand that Jesus loves her too. As she is. And that she has value and worth in who he is and that she can glorify God by wrestling or playing football or cheerleading or baking cookies or writing newspaper articles.

I have to wonder how you would have viewed this situation if you actually knew this young man. You seem to be making quite a few assumptions. It would appear you think you know him, his feelings and reasons far better then he knows himself. Maybe just leave your own feelings out of it, and give the kid a break. He did what he felt was right despite what must have been pretty heavy societal pressure.
How about checking your Bible again as well. You make some very sweeping statements about how Jesus saw and treated woman, and if you re-read the Gospels you will see that you are mistaken.

With all due respect, as a christian female, I completely disagree with your blog. I am normally very pro woman and usually applaud equal right movements that uplift and empower women, but not on this one. I do not believe it is appropriate for teenage boys to be in such intimate positions with persons of the opposite sex. I believe that this young man made a courageous decision.

I am so tired of the feminists looking for any reason to bash men. This should not be so, especially in a Christian setting. To be blunt, this boy was supposed to grab this girl between her legs and grab her breasts in various wrestling holds all in the name of "equality?" Please. This young man was showing respect for this young lady and strength in his Christian convictions, not saying that he thought she was inferior to him. To say that this young man should have been forced to wrestle someone he didn't feel right wrestling is sexist, too. And frankly, I'd rather be treated differently by a man because I'm a woman and shown respect like this young man did than have "b*tch" and "ho" yelled at me from car windows (simply because I'm a female) when I walk down the street. Feminists seem to think any respect shown a woman is insulting. I enjoy being treated like a lady. I guess I'm a dinosaur, though, even in the church.

I am so tired of the feminists looking for any reason to bash men. This should not be so, especially in a Christian setting. To be blunt, this boy was supposed to grab this girl between her legs and grab her breasts in various wrestling holds all in the name of "equality?" Please. This young man was showing respect for this young lady and strength in his Christian convictions, not saying that he thought she was inferior to him. To say that this young man should have been forced to wrestle someone he didn't feel right wrestling is sexist, too. And frankly, I'd rather be treated differently by a man because I'm a woman and shown respect like this young man did than have "obscenities" yelled at me from car windows (simply because I'm a female) when I walk down the street. Feminists seem to think any respect shown a woman is insulting. I enjoy being treated like a lady. I guess I'm a dinosaur, though, even in the church.

Twrecks, I agree with what you said: "Why do we allow postmodernism and cultural liberalism influence truth?" That is exactly what we are doing. And neither of those things care about truth near as much as they do in getting their own way by twisting Scripture to mean what they want it to mean rather than what it actually says, scorning and insulting anyone who disagrees with them, and saying that EVERYTHING is pretty much okay if it FEELS all right. Anything traditional or conservative theologically is to be ridiculed, mocked and rejected. Anyone who disagrees with them is "misguided" as Caryn put it. God given differences between men and women do NOT equate to inequality. I applaud this young man for having the integrity to stand up for his convictions. He had to know that the "liberal" wing of the church would attack him for it, but he did it anyway. Good for him.

Twrecks, I agree with what you said: "Why do we allow postmodernism and cultural liberalism influence truth?" That is exactly what we are doing. And neither of those things care about truth near as much as they do in getting their own way by twisting Scripture to mean what they want it to mean rather than what it actually says, scorning and insulting anyone who disagrees with them, and saying that EVERYTHING is pretty much okay if it FEELS all right. Anything traditional or conservative theologically is to be ridiculed, mocked and rejected. Anyone who disagrees with them is "misguided" as Caryn so condescendingly put it. God given differences between men and women do NOT equate to inequality. I applaud this young man for having the integrity to stand up for his convictions. He had to know that the "liberal" wing of the church would attack him for it, but he did it anyway. Good for him.

Wow, so many comments, but I want to add mine as well. As the mother of young boy who got his girlfriend pregnant, I think we would do well to continue to stand firm that boys should not touch girls in private places, and vice versa, until marriage. Society and the media have pretty much done away with morality to the point that everything is okay, even expected. Back to the wrestling, there is no way that a normal teenage boy could touch a girl, or be touched by a girl, in those ways and not be aroused. And conversely, the girl will be well aware of what she is touching as well. I applaud his decision to default!

As the mother of 4 daughters, I say Thank you, Joel Northrup!! You have given me hope that there are young men out there that will treat my daughters with respect. you are truly a man of honor!

Would YOU want to wrestle a guy?

Wow. I guess some people are unable to express their opinions without hate and vitriol. THAT hurts the cause of Christ. I appreciate all the commenters who stated their opinions without attacking Caryn as a person or judging her Christianity. Agree with her or disagree, if you are a Christ-follower, she is your sister.

MY DAUGHTER WAS A WRESTLER FOR 2 YEARS! No one has brought up what weight class these two athletes were competing in. In the weight classes under 135lbs the wrestlers, boys and girls are pretty well matched up in strength and ability. My daughter wrestled at 119 and 125lbs. Her team mates treated her just like another wrestler at practice and they praised her form and quickness on a take down. She did have a clear advantage over her male opponents when it came to the strength in her legs. Most young men in the lower weight classes are smaller in the legs and have no rear end. She used her GOD given body type to overpower her opponents. I am proud of her for competing in a male driven sport. Because of this she is a very confident young woman who can hold her own in a male driven job environment. She works in the Sports Media Dept at her university. She does not stand for any crap from the men or athletes she works with. She has an advantage over most women when it comes to self defence, she has learned moves that may one day save her life. I have seen girls just cream boys on the mat during a match. Do not tell me women can not compete in a male driven sport. If that that is the case Boys should not be Yell Kings for the cheerleaders because they have to hold girls under their skirts!

With respect, I must disagree with the author. John Piper states my view far better than I ever could: http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/over-my-dead-body-son

A much better blog post. http://www.albertmohler.com/2011/02/22/boys-wrestling-girls-a-clash-of-worlds-and-worldviews/

This is clearly and primarily an article which fails to consider sex and gender in how it is intended for marriage to ultimately picture Christ and his church. I agree with those who have argued that the young man's actions are in accord with biblical standards. Men give themselves up to fight for the best interests of women.

The fact that women compete against men in combat sports is only one of the more innocent areas where Christians have begun to confuse gender roles. Whether it be an issue of combat sport or sexual preference, both make clear that the Christian church in general has forgotten what makes one so distinctly male or female. The two are not simply different bodies, they are different beings. Peter told men to honor their wives not as the other vessel but as the weaker vessel (1 Pet 3:1-7). This is not to say that every woman is necessarily weaker than a given man, but the point remains that Christians' thinking about sex and gender does not often reflect the kind of attitude with which the Bible speaks of them. We call them equal, Peter calls them different. Somebody has to be wrong.

What's more, I am troubled by this article's author's attitude toward sexuality in general. Is it merely some kind of game? Does she not realize that the kind of struggle her husband faced in college when it came to women was akin to idolatry and likely involved lust? This is not an insignificant issue. She makes lite of causing one of Jesus' followers to stumble, which, if I'm reading my Bible correctly, is not something Christians should have anything to do with (Matthew 18:5-6).

This article is only a sampling of the issues we have in the church here in America. The Western worldview has been so shaped by the world's take on the Bible and biblical principles that we often speak with an attitude of presumption toward the proper interpretation of the Bible's message. I hope that the author of this article will see the disconnect between her words here and the Bible's take on the issue, understanding the weighty and eternal significance of her errors. I believe this attitude is wrong, seriously wrong. I pray we can, from here, pursue truth that is in accord with God's Word.

Controversial topics increase reader ratings (see 19th century, G.W.F. Hegel). "Jesus touched, included, sought and taught women." He also protected them in unique ways (John 19:27). It is written, "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" (Romans 14:14). Joel Northrup stood, is standing, and will continue to stand in the grace of Jesus.

I recall having to wrestle a girl when I was in the 8th grade. It was a bad experience altogether. I went onto the mat with the mentality that I would make this girl never want to wrestle again and proceeded to tear her apart. I could not only beat her, I had to beat her bad and embarrass her as much as possible. Not because I had anything against her or girls, but as a young man it felt as though my manhood was at stake. I proceeded to beat her very badly and painfully, and walked off the mat feeling guilty for what should have been considered wrestling well. It was just a bad situation altogether.

Also, going onto the mat I knew I could not use a number techniques I normally would prefer, like throwing in the legs (wrestling terminology) which seemed to me to be totally inappropriate to do to a female, even though I used that technique in 90% of my matches.

You are dealing with high school boys here, it is not that there is any sexual thoughts while on the mat in the heat of combat, but in preparation for the match you eliminate a number of moves you would normally use for fear of a few hundred spectators watching you thinking you were trying to 'get a piece'. That may sound ridiculous, but that is how the minds of a many teenage boys operate. I've been there, that is what went through my mind.

It is really unfair to the boys to put them through this, especially as teenagers.

Caryn, you said:

Jesus seemed to remember this well. He never saw women the way his culture did. He never treated them as they were “supposed” to be treated. Women who were not to be touched, Jesus touched. Women who should have been shunned, Jesus included. Women whose opinions didn’t matter, Jesus sought. Women who were not to learn, Jesus taught.

These are you "support verses"? Do you see "Women who were supposed to be protected, Jesus hit. Women who were supposed to be loved, Jesus pinned to the mat." Yea, sometimes cultural norms are morally wrong. But just because it's a cultural norm doesn't mean that it necessarily is. Some norms are right. Women should be treated like women. Men should be treated like men. There is ZERO biblical precedent for blurring the lines between genders. Just the opposite, not only is homosexuality wrong, but a man being feminine is wrong, too (1 Cor 6:9) -- and vice versa.

Shame -- encouraging a boy to treat a girl like boy.

Tom

Caryn, Several who have commented have made the claim that those posting are hate filled and vitrolic because they strongly disagree with what you have written. I do not make this comment in a hateful way, but out of concern for the impact Hermeneutics may have or the image that is implied regarding evangelical women. I personally do not believe you write in a way that represents what evangelical women think. You state, " I believe God has called me to write. Yes, I do so imperfectly. I make mistakes. I p*** people off. Obviously. But I never write anything without spending time in prayer and seeking God. I'm not saying he gives me the words or that what I say is beyond reproach, but just that I seek to do his will. Following his calling. Often to say things others might be afraid to say."

First, as a writer stay professional and don't use words that normally the filter would remove. You do not need to stoop to that level.
Secondly, don't use the "God card" when you have no other defense. Use logic and reasoning to defend your position.
Thirdly, take criticism graciously. If you want to write publickly, expect that there will be those who disagree and don't react emotionally to their criticisms.
Lastly, I hope that Hermeneutics will begin to take a more balanced approach to their representation of evangelical women in the future. As you can see, more disagree with you than agree.
Again, I do not say any of this out of hate or vitrolic thoughts. I say it out of concern and the direction we are going.

I wonder if any of the Israelite men got sexually aroused as they slaughtered those tribes in the OT...

The results of feminist theology are doing well based on the majority of these responses...

Caryn,

I think there are a few things that you have failed to consider here:

1) Simply because Joel did not mention a sexual reason for refusing to wrestle doesn't mean that it didn't come into his thinking. Not only would it likely have been embarrassing for him to make mention of sexual touching, he could have humiliated his female opponent by doing so as well. And given his behavior at the tournament and his reputation, he seemed to be about as respectful to Cassie as possible. It's quite likely this lack of reference to sexuality was in line with his respectfulness. Pointing out that he only mentioned violence seems to ignore that possibility. And in doing so, you ignore a huge aspect of this story - one you clearly did not take into account in your post.

2) The vast majority of people disagree with you - many of whom seem to be regular readers who normally support you. What this indicates is that perhaps you ought to reconsider your position instead of doubling down on it. The Lord may be using this criticism to show you that indeed you have missed His Spirit's leading on this issue. Some more thought and conversations with former Evangelical male wrestlers should be considered here.

3) You have misapplied Scripture to a situation that really should never take occur in the first place. Guys should not be touching girls in any way that could even come close to dishonoring God. Thus it makes no sense to suggest that such a thing would be done by Jesus in light of His respectful treatment of women.

To the lady whose daughter wrestled and won due to "equality" of weight, etc. Maybe that's so, but after reading the wrestler who decided on the moves he made on each opponent and did not apply all the moves he knew depending on his opponents, I wonder if your daughter "won" because certain moves were removed from the "game plan" of her opponents because of her gender. I hope she isn't over assured of her abilities because as adults the only way she can win against a male is to kick him in a certain spot. Any other saving technique against an adult male is sure luck 99% of the time no matter how well trained a female is. Even teenage men are stronger than females, they usually lack the stamina at that age but at the older age, that's why 99.9% of serial killers are men and serial victims are women. Yes, you have the exceptional equal size & strength women to men, but again, they the exception to most women. The only safe way for women is to teach men/boys women are off limits for physical abuse, etc.

Written by someone who has never been in a wrestling match, obviously.

The young man acted correctly. I applaud him

I am extremely disappointed to see the jettisoning of true scrptural analysis replaced by worship at the world's god of equality and its resulting impugning of what I, as a father of girls, view to be one of the most honorable (and increasingly few) young men in the world.

Answer me this question: if people are citing inappropriate touching as the real reason mixed wrestling should not be allowed, then why are male cheerleading and pairs figure skating acceptable to Christians? In both sports, men are required to put their hands and faces near "lady parts." Additionally, pairs and dance figure skating involves intimate and erotic embraces, many that would not be considered acceptable or appropriate under any other circumstances. So please explain to me why that is ok but mixed wrestling is not. I have my own theory but I'm interested in hearing how other people try and explain it away.

If this blog post (and the comment trail following) represents the state of thinking in the Evangelical community, we declined much further than I previously thought.

@Jeb: I wonder why you think that Evangelical women need to agree on these sorts of issues. It seems to me we disagree on all sorts of things--but that we can agree that Jesus is Lord and offer grace and understanding when we disagree.

I understand that as a professional writer I subject myself to disagreement. I don't run from that. I'm not afraid of that. In fact, that is one of the reasons I DO write. Writers should write to stir people's imaginations and their minds.

Interesting that you'd ask me to respond to comments without emotion in this context. Many would argue that you're asking me to respond "like a man." : )

And I'm not quite sure what "God card" I played here. That I believe God called me to write? I didn't say, "God told me to write these exact words." I still claim that God has called me to be a writer (which is why I can't stop) and that I seek God's wisdom and guidance in everything I do write. I pray that I honor him in what I write. If that's playing the "God card," I don't really know what to say.

Sorry! That was me (Caryn, the author) commenting up there! I forgot to fill in the name section. Whoops.

Caryn, Thank you for your reply. Let me lovingly ask you, did you seek God's direction when you wrote "I p*** people off"?

Also, do you think that women can only emote and are not capable of rational logical conclusions based on how others are responding to this blog? I believe that women need to learn to say "I think this" rather than "I feel this". Feelings often lead us to wrong conclusions because they come from within us rather than seeking verification and facts.

Thirdly, the reason I do not believe you are representing evangelical women is not because I doubt your sincerity in believing in Christ and His saving grace. It is because I believe you are ignorant of the large picture. What affect will your stand on feminism (which I take this piece to be) as well as what appears to be Hermeneutics stand on feminism have on the Church as a whole? How has the feminist movement helped society? How has it hurt it? Do you really believe that the Church will benefit from the removal of gender based roles? How will this profit us? Do you think that right and wrong are based on how we feel? Do you believe in a moral code outside of yourself that does not change based on society norms or culture or feelings?

Finally, to the person who seeks to place figure skating and cheer leading on the same level as wrestling between men and women I would say you are comparing apples and oranges. If you want to write an article on inappropriate touch between genders, that may be the time to bring this up. There is a lot of the world's practices that we have adopted into our lives in the church that create issues, but this article was not about that it was about it being OK for a young single man to wrestle another single woman and a brave young man's stand for doing the right thing. I am sad that a Christian blog couldn't take the time to applaud him. We had to take the other side so we'd get a lot of hits. I am just sad. (There is some emotion for you!)

I was teasing about the being like a man comment. Of course women are both emotional and logical. We think and feel.

But you raise an astonishing point! You argue in favor of our distinct gender roles and yet you think that it's better for women to say we "think" (as men say) than to say we "feel" (as women are more prone to). Muy interesante. Why do you think women should be more like men in their use of language?

Oh, and as far as God and me and my use of the letter p with some asterisks, good question. I take a very Reformed approach to these things, I suppose. God is the God of language and of bodily functions. Sometimes a word (and this one you can choose to interpret as less or more crass, depending) needs to be harsher to describe something. Obviously, I have not simply annoyed people here, but brought out a serious--nearly violent--reaction. So, yes, I was a bit earthy. But since others here have written about me and my husband's sex life and called me a lesbian enemy of Judeo-Christian values and written on and on about boys touching each others' private parts, I think earthiness is pretty rampant. I won't use it again, though.

In defense of this blog and Christianity Today in general and its fine, fine team of editors--and at least two editors from CT's parent company have commented on this post!--if someone wanted to write up something in support of this boy, I can't see why they wouldn't publish that. This blog is not intended to be the definitive position of Evangelical America. It's an opinion. It's intended to create dialogue.

So, if you disagree with me, please don't think this silly post has heralded in the end of Christianity as you know and love it. Clearly, you have plenty of people on "your side."

But let's get back to being on God's side. Really, there's a world full of hurt and need out there. Maybe it's time we focus on that again....

I'm sad too. Obviously, for different reasons that you state.

@Jeb

I asked what the differences were, and you said they're "apples and oranges." You have merely restated the idea that they're different, without explaining why.

"If you want to write an article on inappropriate touch between genders, that may be the time to bring this up. "

Why are 100 other people allowed to comment on "touching" in wrestling, but not me?

"this article was not about that it was about it being OK for a young single man to wrestle another single woman and a brave young man's stand for doing the right thing. "

You're right - the article was NOT about the sexual nature of touching in wrestling. However, that thread has dominated the comments nonetheless, even though the author has tried to point people away from it in her subsequent posts. And I am choosing to comment on this turn of the discussion.

Reading this article makes me want to punch someone. Not a girl though, for obvious reasons. You seem more stuck on "what culture says" than "what Scripture says". And that's a dangerous ground, ms. Karyn.

@ns

Kindly post your theory. I'm interested and also interested in reading how other people try and explain why male cheer leading, pairs and dance ice figure skating acceptable to Christians, but wrestling is not?

Stan: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.

Reg: But you can't have babies.

Stan: Don't you oppress me.

Reg: Where's the fetus going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?

Some roles are just made for one gender and some are made for the other. The issue of violence goes away if you think for even one second men may be made to be "protectors" of women and that it has nothing to do with seeing her as "victim-like."

I am utterly astonished at the sheer volume of people who feel that it is appropriate to vent hostile opinions personally against an author with whom they disagree. It is a sad sign of the effect of the internet on decency and social relationships. That I would happen to be reading a "Christian" blog with comments from "Christians" defies description. There is absolutely nothing in Christian Scripture that allows you to be hostile towards anyone - no matter how much you disagree.

Caryn, I think at this point my opinion on the issue is utterly irrelevant, I just want to tell you I am praying that God will encourage you and give you the grace to rise above the hateful comments. You are far more courageous and brave than I - I would have resigned by now!!

I notice that some are putting male cheer leading, pairs and dance ice figure skating in the same sport as wrestling and ballet can be added to the list. But, wrestling is a more down on the mat with each other's legs and arms entangled, etc. I haven't seen male cheer leaders with their hands and arms stuck for any time in or on delicate areas unless by accident. There is always space. In ballet, and ice figure skating the male really does all the hard lifting etc. but again his hands have space from the delicate areas and, they have trained and know each other enough for minimal accidental touching. Wrestling by its very nature is entanglement and holding down of the body to the mat with the use of both hands and legs all over the opponent. Girls shouldn't be doing rough sports with boys who can hold you darn hard but with other girls is fine. It's too easy for the man to bruise the girl for the future and yes, the same for boys but boys don't usually get cancer in their areas brought on by over and over bruising.

If there's one part of the article most of the commenters upthread really ought to re-read, it's this:

"We screw things up when we focus too much on gender, when we forget that while we are each male or female, and that's a wonderful thing, we are also just people."

It's quite disconcerting how easily people are distracted from one of the two most important commandments -- "love your neighbor as yourself" -- whenever there's even the potential for sex to be involved.

That's the real issue here, as I see it. What does it mean for a man to love his female neighbors as himself? Does it mean protecting women and preventing any potential harm that might befall them, regardless of how an individual woman might feel about that? Or does it mean respecting women's understanding of their own safety and doing one's best to defend that without interfering in situations where an individual woman might feel comfortable taking risks.

Everything else just seems like a distraction. Because, honestly, if a boy is incapable of separating women/women's bodies and sex in a non-sexual context like a wrestling match (or art school, or medical school, or missionary work in a culture with different standards of modesty), that mental state is sinful no matter how successful he is at avoiding situations that provoke a physiological response -- and having the two forceably separated would likely be good for him, even if it meant he couldn't avoid those situations.

@Caryn: I am sorry for the vitriol and obscenity that has been spouted by apparently Christian commentators here. I am ashamed as a Christian. I disagree with your perspective, but I do not doubt your good intentions or faith. I ask those who have been uncharitable to their sister in Christ to consider their words.

That you have provoked such passionate reactions from both sides shows that you have challenged assumptions in your audience that have probably been cherished for too long without thought. Your article is, therefore, worthwhile for enlightenment, which is what educated people are supposed to expose themselves to. Thank you, and I hope that you will continue to contribute more like it (including your personal touches of irreverence) in Christian publications in the future.

My position: Joel Northrup is an admirable, young, chivalrous Christian gentleman, and I wish that parents and public schools in general in America, Canada (I'm Canadian) and the rest of the English-speaking world would once again make it their aim to raise boys to be like him. This kid sounds like he is headed towards becoming the sort of man that I would want my daughter to marry. What disturbs me most about what I've heard about this tournament is that he was the only boy to decline to wrestle the two girls there.

I was also disappointed by the response of Cassy Herkelman's father. I think that he shares the dominant perspective of decent people in the English-speaking world these days: “I’d like to see (Northrup’s) father and meet him because I applaud them for holding onto their convictions. Even on a big stage like this. That’s something that takes a lot of guts. A lot of people may second-guess it, but your convictions have to be your convictions.” This is a nice response, but it is not a substantive response. It is the response of cultural relativism in which no one can claim to be absolutely right and each gets admiration for how strongly he holds on to his belief rather than for the worth of the belief itself. It is evil because it reduces chivalry to just another lifestyle choice among many and it excuses each from having to consider if his way is wrong.

I am well aware that my position would tend to put limits on the freedom of female athletes to pursue their happiness as they see it, whether they regard their athletic gifts as God-given or not. I like the female athletes that I have known, so I don't like having to argue for this. However, parents and society should, if we want people in general to live as happily as possible in both freedom and order, be in the business of preparing boys and girls for their traditional gender roles in marriage. We should not just be encouraging them to nurse whatever self-centred passions that they harbour for themselves (although we should also allow for exceptions whenever it's reasonable).

@Caryn: P.S. I agree with you that the issues of relative physical strength and sexual awkwardness are overrated in this context. Serious athletes of both sexes focus on their performance in the moment. And being afraid that you would lose to a girl and that a win would mean nothing is pathetic and disrespectful. My point (and Joel's, I trust) is that the relations between the sexes should be gentle, considerate, sacrificial, and even playful, but not seriously competitive and aggressive. If more boys and girls were prepared to think in this way, there would be more happy families.

"I applaud Joel's decision to back away from any seeming violence toward girls. But I wonder why he thinks the Christian faith smiles on violence-for-fun against fellow boys. I’m confident that it doesn’t." - Why are you so confident? I have a Christian position for violence-for-fun that I have used for years to defend fighting in hockey, and I think that it is more persuasive than the Biblical argument that you gave to defend equal aggression towards women. The origins of many of the contact sports of today, like football, rugby and hockey, were motivated by the doctrine of “Muscular Christianity” that was popularized in 19th Century England. Joel, despite his youth, has apparently considered this issue of wrestling girls for years. Perhaps he will express himself more fully for the benefit of his fellow Christians in the future.

Brooks Davis:

My point (and Joel's, I trust) is that the relations between the sexes should be gentle, considerate, sacrificial, and even playful, but not seriously competitive and aggressive. If more boys and girls were prepared to think in this way, there would be more happy families.

While I wouldn't disagree that type of relationship seems ideal for husbands and wives, who share their entire lives and hence really ought to avoid thinking in terms of "winner" and "loser," I'm not sure there's reason to think that it's impossible to relate to members of the opposite sex on an individual level and cooperate with one's spouse while competing with others of either gender.

And, in any case, competition between opposite-gendered individuals is basically unavoidable anyway -- people have to compete to get into well-ranked colleges and to get jobs, both of which are much more important than a sports competition and neither of which separates people by gender.

I have a Christian position for violence-for-fun that I have used for years to defend fighting in hockey, and I think that it is more persuasive than the Biblical argument that you gave to defend equal aggression towards women. The origins of many of the contact sports of today, like football, rugby and hockey, were motivated by the doctrine of “Muscular Christianity” that was popularized in 19th Century England.

I don't think Caryn was arguing for equal aggression towards women -- what I took from what she said was that, if violence-for-fun is problematic when directed at men, too, and contact sports aren't problematic between men, the rough-housing in contact sports must be a different sort of thing from actual violence. And, if that's the case, rules about violence can't be used as guidelines to say anything about co-ed contact sports, either.

And I'd be much more inclined to think that contact sports are different in kind from actual violence than I would be to accept a doctrine written down 1800 years after Jesus' life that suggests violence-for-fun is okay.

@Ikkin: Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

@Brooke Davis: Wrestling may get sort of "violent," but it isn't violence in the true sense. Violence for fun as I see it would be someone hurting another (unwilling) person for kicks. This includes schoolyard bullies to dog fighters to rapists and murders and everything in between. I don't think Jesus is cool with this.

On another note: Was there really something called Muscular Christianity? Fascinating. Gotta look into this....

As the mother of two girls, I could not disagree more.

Putting high school boys and girls in this situation is completely inappropriate. I think your article is seriously off base in relating this situation to how Jesus interacted with women.

And by the way, Northrup did step onto the mat and wrestle that day! The internal struggle he must have fought between doing what was honorable and biblical and doing what would possibly bring him much fame and glory in the sports world -- that's a character-building match like none other. And it's a match Northrup won because he looked not only to his interests, but also to the interests of others.(Philippians 2:4)

Speaking as a die-hard egalitarian, this whole issue is wrong, wrong, wrong. She's not as strong as he is (nothing wrong with that; does not imply inferiority), the touching during a match would become inappropriate (how could it not?), and then there's the issue of violence against women, even if this is just a sport. Also, this goes back to that misconception that to be a "serious" athlete, a woman has to compete against a man. What nonsense.

I agree that Joel seems a very nice and thoughtful young man. I'm a very strong feminist, as is my husband, but I think he made the right decision. I think it would be VERY uncomfortable for a teenage boy to have that sort of close contact with a young woman. It means he would have been intimately touched in a way that he would find extremely uncomfortable. He would also have to intimately touch the girl. To expect him to put up with this is the same as expecting women to put up with unwanted touching from men. I understand all the arguments for and against. There have been great arguments on both sides. I just think it's unfair to put this boy in this position. Wrestling a girl probably wasn't something he expected when he started wrestling, and if HE isn't comfortable then he shouldn't have to tolerate it. It really doesn't matter what the rest of us feel. It's up to Joel to set boundaries for his own body. I so admire the way he handled it. He didn't criticize anybody. He didn't show any resentment about being put in an unexpected situation. He just stated his own beliefs and feelings in the nicest possible way.

Ms. Rivadeneira,

Before you impugn the motives of an honorable young man, claiming his decision to default has more to do with "his view of who is against him on the mat than it does with actual violence." you might consider that his record is 35-4 as opposed to her rather poorer record of 20-13. Then, too, there is the fact that the girl lost her next match in rather decisive fashion to another wrestler who wasn't rated as high as Joel Northrup.

Then there is your snide comment that, "And I think his refusal has more to do with his cultural view of girls than his Christian faith" which, for all intents and purposes calls him a liar since he specifically attributes his decision to his faith.

It's a sign of the moral confusion of those who claim to be Evangelical Christians that they can't see he insanity of demanding young men do physical combat with young women.

When did we stop telling our boys that they shouldn't hit girls?

@Caryn, Ikkin: OK, I'm not sure, but I guess that I understand Caryn's point about the double standard for violence only now. However, if I understand you correctly, then I think that you have not understood properly where Joel is coming from. I think that I understand what Joel was saying from my experience of hockey. When he said wrestling is a combat sport, he meant that it is simulated combat, i.e. it can be very near unrestrained violence. “Rough-housing” would be far too casual and mild a term for it. In order to win at it, he needs to be extremely aggressive towards his opponent, in almost the same way he would have to be in mortal combat. His attitude needs to be nearly the opposite of Christian charity towards your neighbour, but this is permissible only because the context is a controlled game of conflict by mutual consent. On that mat at the most intense moments, he hates his opponent and is completely focused on beating him by any means possible, including injury.

I think that we guys, at least, can typically put that aside and genuinely love our opponents after the competition is over. In support of your position, I concede that, in theory, males could do the same for female opponents. However, guys like me (and Joel, I think) cannot bring ourselves to hate women even for those moments because we have understood that it's our chivalrous duty to sincerely sacrifice and support them and put them first, and we have understood that this duty is more important than sport or personal ambition. And we believe that there is a Biblical basis for it.

Caryn's question: “Was there really something called Muscular Christianity?” - Yep, “Muscular Christianity” had enormous influence on the English-speaking world of the 19th Century, particularly the British Empire. You could start with Thomas Arnold and Thomas Hughes.

Ikkin's statement: “Or does it mean respecting women's understanding of their own safety and doing one's best to defend that without interfering in situations where an individual woman might feel comfortable taking risks.” - I agree with this point if we are talking about a man thinking that he should stop a female mountain climber from climbing Mt. Everest for her own safety. But this wrestling situation was different because wrestling a girl meant that Joel would have to change his mindset and potentially hate her during the match. I am sure when he made his decision that he knew that she was an experienced and capable enough wrestler for him to not have to be seriously concerned for her safety during their match.

Ikkin's statement: “Everything else just seems like a distraction ... even if it meant he couldn't avoid those situations.” - I agree, but your statement only concerns sexual temptation. What is at issue here is physical aggression and hatred, and that is not a feature of the working relationships that you listed.

Ikkin's statement: “I'm not sure there's reason to think that it's impossible to relate to members of the opposite sex on an individual level and cooperate with one's spouse while competing with others of either gender.” - I can't think of a reason for certain individuals to not do this. However, I think that women generally know that the way that a man treats women in general reflects the way that a man is probably going to treat her in a marriage. I am concerned about the overall effect on society when most parents and schools teach boys and girls that it is every person for itself and that gender role playing should be a lower priority. Isn't it obvious that the results include more selfish men who use women and more women who have to put career first in order to be independent of them? The best purpose for my proposal that parents and schools should be teaching that “the relations between the sexes should be gentle, considerate, sacrificial, and even playful, but not seriously competitive and aggressive” is to prepare boys and girls for marriage and children. But all of this is just flowery nostalgia for a distant past in light of your next point.

Ikkin's statement: “And, in any case, competition between opposite-gendered individuals is basically unavoidable anyway -- people have to compete to get into well-ranked colleges and to get jobs, both of which are much more important than a sports competition and neither of which separates people by gender” - Apart from claiming that colleges and jobs are so much more important than sports, yeah, I acknowledge that this is the current general situation in our culture at large. Great. So, I have a girl pre-schooler and a baby boy. In order to conform them to our world, we should be teaching the former to put preparing for a lucrative career before anything else and teaching the latter to elbow out any girl who gets in his way. I wish that I could count on my fellow Christians in resisting this post-Christian cultural rot, and I suppose that this feeling may have been what has caused some of the commentators to express such hostility towards you, Caryn. (But it was still wrong of them to do that.)

May I ask Caryn and Ikkin if it is better for society to raise boys to be gender-neutral like you seem to be suggesting or to be chivalrous towards women like I am? By the way, this is not a completely impractical hypothetical question – it was just a few generations ago that an average man would normally give up his seat on a bus to a random lady (at least here in Canada).

Brooks Davis -- No one is suggesting you should raise your daughter to value career over all else or your son to elbow out any girl who gets in his way. Rather, both should be taught to use their God-given talents in the best way God shows them how. They should protect each other, and their fellow men and women, whenever and however they need protection, rather than assuming only men are the protectors and only women need protection. They should not be taught to be "gender-neutral," which would be equally as incorrect as the "gender-specific" approach that the Complementarians so harmfully propose. Rather, a "person-specific" approach allows us all to honor and use our God-given talents.

What if your boy wants to grow up to be a lawyer? Should he view a female opposing counsel as someone in need of protection rather than as a competitor? What if your boy ends up having a boss who is a woman? You are doing a disservice to your son in refusing to teach him to relate to a woman as just another human being with a unique set of strengths and weaknesses.

Your "flowery nostalgia for a distant past" may sound like a good thing for you, but for women, it went hand-in-hand with not being able to vote, not being permitted to own property, not being able to practice law, not being able to do all sorts of things for which God may have given them talents and gifts.

I was a competitive swimmer as a kid and all the way through college. While boys and girls did not compete against each other, we always worked out together. (And, speaking of temptations, you do realize those Speedos leave absolutely nothing to the imagination? Should co-ed swim team practices be banished as well?) Women have only been permitted to use their athletic talents in serious competition for a few generations. Do you know that world-class women swimmers are now routinely swimming faster than Mark Spitz, the seven-gold-medal-winning star of the 1972 Olympics, did then? It won't be too many more years before women and men are competing together. And as for women in combat-style sports, you do know that women have been fencing for decades, right?

Caryn wrote a great article, and I'm sure that the O.T. prophets can rightfully be said to have "pi**ed off" a lot of people too.

Assuming the author is the writer of this comment http://blog.christianitytoday.com/women/2011/02/when_my_friend_posted_a.html#comment-503249 I think they should be ashamed at their attitude.

Such goading and uncaring comments elicit an uneasy feeling that she is being horrible with the only purpose as self-promotion of her apparent radical lack of virtue.

Margaret:

It really doesn't matter what the rest of us feel. It's up to Joel to set boundaries for his own body. I so admire the way he handled it. He didn't criticize anybody. He didn't show any resentment about being put in an unexpected situation. He just stated his own beliefs and feelings in the nicest possible way.

While I'm not convinced that Joel's objection was really one of this sort, I could definitely get behind it if it was. One's ability to decide what others are allowed to do with one's body shouldn't be dependent on gender (and the idea that men don't really set boundaries with women is one of society's great lies).

I actually have a lot of sympathy for him -- I just can't really agree with his reasoning behind his decision inasmuch as it appears to have more to do with his understanding of women's well-being rather than his own.

Brooks Davis:

I think that I understand what Joel was saying from my experience of hockey. When he said wrestling is a combat sport, he meant that it is simulated combat, i.e. it can be very near unrestrained violence. “Rough-housing” would be far too casual and mild a term for it. In order to win at it, he needs to be extremely aggressive towards his opponent, in almost the same way he would have to be in mortal combat. His attitude needs to be nearly the opposite of Christian charity towards your neighbour, but this is permissible only because the context is a controlled game of conflict by mutual consent. On that mat at the most intense moments, he hates his opponent and is completely focused on beating him by any means possible, including injury.

I'm coming from a really different position here, being someone who's involved in martial arts but who never did much in the way of competitive sports, but I really think that hating an opponent, even just in the moment, is both problematic and unnecessary.

Hatred might make it easier to act aggressively, but it's also blinding -- it goes past wanting to win, and all the way to wanting to hurt one's opponent, which seems antithetical to sportsmanship and quite possibly dangerous to oneself, too. There's definitely a certain degree to which one needs to repress one's compassion towards others in order to participate in a form of competition that is painful and sometimes dangerous, but safe and sportsmanlike competition only works because that lack of compassion isn't real.

And that's why I think it's misleading to ask whether one's duty (whether to women or to other people in general) is more or less important than sports -- modifying that duty to fit a competitive situation doesn't mean the duty's less important, just that it's not necessarily relevent in a controlled game.

I can't think of a reason for certain individuals to not do this. However, I think that women generally know that the way that a man treats women in general reflects the way that a man is probably going to treat her in a marriage.

I guess I'm just not sure why dealing with women on an individual basis would make his future actions any harder to predict. If I can get a pretty good idea of how a man treats men in general, when he doesn't have any particular rule for how to deal with men, why shouldn't I be able to get just as good an idea of how he treats women in general even if he doesn't have a specific rule for that either?

Apart from claiming that colleges and jobs are so much more important than sports, yeah, I acknowledge that this is the current general situation in our culture at large. Great. So, I have a girl pre-schooler and a baby boy. In order to conform them to our world, we should be teaching the former to put preparing for a lucrative career before anything else and teaching the latter to elbow out any girl who gets in his way. I wish that I could count on my fellow Christians in resisting this post-Christian cultural rot, and I suppose that this feeling may have been what has caused some of the commentators to express such hostility towards you, Caryn. (But it was still wrong of them to do that.)

When I said colleges and jobs are more important, I meant in the sense that they tend to have a much larger impact on one's life (unless one is a professional athlete). It's certainly possible to value sports more, though.

And I didn't mean to imply any "shoulds" in bringing up the current state of society -- I only meant to say that competition is basically unavoidable, whether it's a good thing or not, so we're in trouble if we can't keep it out of our relationships in spite of that.

Being cruel to others and giving up everything else in pursuit of monetary success is clearly un-Christian and should be avoided. But that's not really a gender issue, so much as a "love your neighbor" issue. So I'm certainly not for "gender-neutral" in the sense that women should be treated the way men now are -- everyone deserves respect, both in the sense of not being hurt and the sense of not having their will overridden for their own protection (at least, not where well-informed adults are concerned).

@ Ikkin: If I had more time, I was going to ask you to clarify some of what you wrote; and I was going to recall your earlier point that everything apart from “love thy neighbour” is a distraction and make the case that Ephesians 5:25-33 is a Biblical basis for this chivalry that calls upon men to love female neighbours more than male neighbours. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to leave our discussion unresolved and we are going to have to agree to disagree for now because I won't have enough spare time on weeknights.

@Christian Lawyer: I'm not trying to offend you, but if you want the credibility of being a lawyer in a debate, then please show enough integrity to be open and honest about your opinions in public, as your profession ideally demands – give your real name. (Here in Ontario, Canada, the Oath at the Call to the Bar would require you to say, “in all things I shall conduct myself honestly and with integrity and civility.”) All English-speaking countries need more Christians in law, but we need you guys to be out-of-the-closet. (I recognize that as a software developer I likely have less at stake in identifying myself.)

Brooks Davis:

I'm not going to write a text-wall of a response, because I can certainly understand the lack of spare time as an issue. I just want to clarify my position on a couple of things.

First, when I said "everything else is a distraction," I meant in terms of discussing whether Joel's position is the correct one for a Christian to hold -- a lot of the arguments being made in the comments bring up things he never said or even implied, and that, I see as a distraction.

And, second, I don't think Ephesians 5:25-33 necessarily applies to male-female relationships as a whole -- it's pretty clearly about the relationship between a husband and a wife, not every set of men and women. (I'm inclined to think that what it means to love one's neighbor might be affected by social context as well -- that loving a neighbor who is forbidden from supporting herself might require more work -- but that would require an argument of significantly greater length)

A lot of these comments talk about how wrestling girls promotes violence toward women and wonder when we made it okay "to hit a girl." First of all, wrestling doesn't involve hitting, and it's more strategic and structured than anything-goes combat. Both competitors would be using moves familiar to the other, and would be trained in how to respond to each move and hold. But most importantly, it seems we are forgetting that Cassie Herkelman CHOSE to be in this situation! Perhaps we are identifying a bit too strongly with her as we form our responses--wrestling against a woman with zero training or desire to wrestle, as I presume most of us have, would be violence indeed! But she wrestles competitively and is asking to be taken seriously as a competitor. She has been through an entire high school season--in which she beat other male opponents!--so clearly she is fully aware of all that a wrestling match involves, and has the strength to at least reasonably compete. She earned her right to be there.

And as far as the sexual component goes...these are athletes, and highly skilled ones at that. I would think they can separate competition from sexual playfulness, in much the same way a doctor can separate a physical exam from sexual touching. It's about context! If the wrestlers who have to face girls know that they cannot handle the situation, then I completely respect their decision to forfeit. It's unfortunate that it has to play out like that, but, as Caryn mentioned, this is the way the system is set up and we must deal within that reality. I have absolutely zero desire to wrestle anyone, let alone men, but Cassie (and other girls) want to and the school system has decided they are allowed.

I completely respect Joel Northrup's decision to forfeit. It was his decision to make and if he recognized that he could not or would not glorify God in this situation, then he made the right choice. But I don't think it follows that his choice is the right choice for every male wrestler who has to face a girl.

Oh, and thanks, Caryn, for putting yourself out there and responding eloquently to the comments. I echo her sentiments that I am thankful that Her.meneutics offers a variety of voices--I think there are a number of regular writers here who would be pretty shocked to find they are considered "feminists"! This blog has never meant to represent all evangelical women with every post, and I am thankful for the diversity of voices and opinions I can engage every time I read a post here.

Larua,

I'm not sure why the label feminism appears to be a problem since your post (as indeed, do others) fairly screams feminist. The language, the arguments about individual choice, earning rights, what the system allows, these are all standard feminist cant.

But then that's what Evangelicalism has been reduced to, tagging along after the culture crying, "Me, too!" while tryiing to maintain a sheepskin of Christianity.

Kamilla

You're my hero, Caryn. Thanks for writing.

Brooks Davis -- Use of an anonymous pen name to write political and legal commentary, far from lacking in integrity, has a long and honorable history in this country going back to our Founding Fathers. James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and their colleagues (all lawyers) who published the Federalist Papers, a series of tracts explaining and advocating for the new constittion and the Bill of Rights, first published their papers anonymously under the single pen name "Publius." Surely you're not suggesting that they violated their oaths?

You can quote whatever rules or canons of professional conduct you like, but there is no reasonable interpretation of them that "demands" that I use my real name in simple political commentary unrelated to my legal work. If I met you at church I would happily tell you my name and say the same things I said to you here. The difference is that a judge or juror would not be able to google me to find that conversation and hold it against my clients. So, I exercise my right to anonymouse free speech as the Founding Fathers and many others over the centuries have done, without harming my clients.

Caryn, Thank you for responding to me. Although I disagree with almost everything you say, I respect your right to say it. However, I do not think that we do evangelical women any good with these debates, so this will be my last post. I believe Scripture is our guide to right and wrong and that our moral code is based in God Himself and not in how we feel about it.
You questioned me in what I wrote about feelings and said "You argue in favor of our distinct gender roles and yet you think that it's better for women to say we "think" (as men say) than to say we "feel" (as women are more prone to). Muy interesante. Why do you think women should be more like men in their use of language?"
Of course you know as you stated that we are all made in the image of God with the ability to both feel and use reason. People feel, not exclusively women. Some people allow their feelings to guide their thinking. If it feels good believe it. They don't bother to think things through, to be Bereans and check their feelings against Scripture as well as their thoughts. Scripture tells us to take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ (2 Cor 10:5). If I were to use the analogy of a train, I would say that when humans allow their emotions to be the Engine that drives the train it will often lead them down the wrong track. However, if right thinking (thinking that is taken captive by Christ) drives the train it can control or guide our wayward emotions. Since this is a women's area of CT, then I would encourage women to utilize the Philippians passage that says "whatever is true...think on these things" because our emotions (such as desire for equality and feelings that all things are not equal and fair) can often lead us to false conclusions.
My last comment on all of this is to reveal to you that I am a female wrestler. I have been one for a long time. I absolutely despise the sport, but ever since I signed on I have been involved in daily matches. However these matches do not involve young highschool males, but even greater opponents. I think you, Caryn, may be engaged in this sport, too.
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places" Eph 6:12

"You're my hero, Caryn. Thanks for writing"

That's more of a statement viewing the author as some kind of representative of woman - and their pursuit of feminist goals.

Christianity and Feminism cannot co-exist together!

Evangelicalism has certainly regressed.

yikes - so many thoughts rolling through my head that I don't know where to start. I kind of understand where Joel is coming from, but at the same time I really appreciated a number of the points made by this author.

One thing that is striking me as I read through the comments is that many people almost seem to want women to forget that they have a body with real muscles that can be built and used and trained. This is one of the beautiful gifts God has given us as physical as well as spiritual beings. Perhaps I'm reading too far into what is being said, but the idea that women should sit quietly in the corner and cheer on 'their men' while they compete seems to be a subtext in a lot of the comments.

Some argue that a boy having to wrestle a girl would feel (or did indeed feel) that his very manhood was being tested or challenged. Another stated as part of their argument that a boy faced with this would lose whether he won or lost the match because he would either 'beat a girl' or 'lose to a girl'... not to say that we don't each have our own struggles with self-worth or understanding the wonderful creations we are before God, but if this is your reason... well, I'm sorry, but it's YOU who have the issue, not the person who supports girls' participation in contact sports. ack... perhaps I'm getting into the realm of personal attacks, but as a woman who has participated in sports for as long as I can remember, that you can't look at me as an equal challenger simply because of my gender, without knowledge of my training, my talent, my skills? That is removing an aspect of personhood from me and every other woman out there.

Part of sportsmanship is learning to accept defeat and to face the challenge to improve one's own fitness and skills - no matter who you face in competition.

Those who question the validity of a girl in a boys' wrestling competition I would guess it was related to the numbers of girl wrestlers available to compete against. My understanding is that wrestling is a test of strength and I can certainly understand a girl's desire to learn the skills and build her body for competition in the sport.

None of this really deals with the original question. In the end I respect Joel for the decision he made, no matter his actual reasons, which, you must admit that for all of us, are often subconscious and so can go unknown or unspoken. But I also am grateful to the author for putting herself out there in a subculture (of which I, too, am a member) that often overlooks women in ALL their capacities - gifted for so many things, within their identities as women, made in God's image. Contrary to some, I believe that men who are able to see this will be stronger and not weaker, where all of us are living in the fullness of what God has made us to be.

Removed for direct attack insults ADMINJB

Just for the record. The reason why ALL these TROLLS have hounded your page over this topic is probably because their "leader" Al Mohler sent then to Justin Taylor (his disciple) who linked you page on his blog. As an avid reader of your blog... Regardless of whether I agree with you or not. I would like to apologize for the ridiculous, close-minded and hateful things that were said in the comment section. It's is the same separatist hate that kept my grandmom from being allowed to drink out of the "white folks" water fountain. Dispalyed now through gender role assumptions, but displayed just the same. All the while being justified by out of context scriptures.

So sorry Sarah. For the hassle Albert Mohler and his minions have caused you. Sorry you were caught in their manhood/womanhood crosshairs! And sorry for having a comment section on your blog (which Mohler does not), to where you've had to deal with this nonsense.

Give it all a few weeks and they'll all return to their Mohler/Taylor worship. Thusly forgetting that "Her"menuetics even exists.

That is unless the Mohlers of the world call you out again!

God bless sister. And keep going as you go. Let the holy spirit be your guide!

REMOVED THREAD FOR INSULTS JBADMIN

Just a couple of comments before I go:

First, if you are going to delete JenLu's comment, it simply makes sense to delete the two comments (Aidan's and mine) responding to it.

Second, I want to thank the folks here at CT for their visits to my blog over the past couple of days. You are welcome to leave a comment the next time.

Kamilla

Ms. Rivadeneira, how about some comments on Cassy's Dad Bill. He said, "She's my son. She's always been my son." That, as opposed to Joel's convictions, is a case of real sexism.

@Edmond: I'd been hearing that her dad called her his son but keep forgetting to read it for myself. If it's true, I agree. It's totally sexist. And odd and hurtful.

This scenario is evidence of moral breakdown and God's judgment. In times past Christians would have reflexively understood that. The father of the young girl involved here is culpable. I shudder to imagine what the longterm impact on her will be. I'm certain he hasn't instilled a Christian worldview in his child.

Pastor Kevin Swanson's analysis of this issue from a Christian worldview can be found here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=3111930300

I haven't listened to it yet, but he is usually quite good.

Are you implying that was not treating her with respect and dignity by not wrestling with her? I think it was honoring her as a woman. I don't have any problem with girls wrestling......OTHER GIRLS.

For any man to be put into a position to engage a woman in any type of physical altercation, be it sport or otherwise is wrong...

The way you make it sound is as if Jesus would have jumped onto the wrestling mat with her and threw down because he would want her to feel like a human and that would be the only way she could...

My goodness, why don't you write a blog about why they should share a locker room together and change in front of one another before they wrestle with one another because that would make them both equally human...

Have some respect for the differences between men and women and the differences God created DELIBERATELY between them...

Disgusted that this is supposedly a Christian take on this...talk about bad hermeneutics and terrible exegesis this is a prime example of it....

Absolutely heretical take on how men should treat women...

I am very saddened to see yet another voice tearing down what God intended and claiming they are a voice in the name of Him...

Some here may be interested in Dr. Anthony Esolen's assessment of the situation:

http://www.insidecatholic.com/feature/benign-neglect-or-calculated-malignity.html

Kamilla

Having thus answered the only objection that can ever be raised against me as a traveler, I here take a final leave of all my courteous readers, and return to enjoy my own speculations in my little garden at Redriff, to apply those excellent lessons of virtue which I learned among the Houyhnhnms, to instruct the Yahoos of my own family as far as I shall find them docile animals; to behold my figure often in a glass, and thus if possible habituate myself by time to tolerate the sight of a human creature; to lament the brutality of Houyhnhnms in my own country, but always treat their persons with respect, for the sake of my noble master, his family, his friends, and the whole Houyhnhnm race, whom these ours have the honor to resemble in all their lineaments, however their intellectuals came to degenerate.

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I, too, think that Joel made the right choice. The morally right choice not to get into a highly questionable situation with a girl...which would have had not only the effect of one wrestling match - but would have rippled out to the whole culture. For any woman (such as the author of the article above) to suggest to a man that semi-professional wrestling match with a woman is a morally good thing to do... is absurd. I find it utterly AMAZING how such an article can be considered in the "top 10 of 2011" of her.meneutics articles, when the far majority of responders to this article were AGAINST it and refuted it.

The logic of the article is absurd, yet it is lifted up as a "top 10"? Are the ratings about the sheer number of RESPONSES - or logical/moral/scriptural clarity? Because there was very little scriptural clarity in this article, and a lot of conjecture. It is implied that JESUS (because he touched women) would have WRESTLED with them, in a down & dirty match-up.

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