Her.meneutics: How to Talk about Having Children

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June 22, 2011

How to Talk about Having Children

Maybe God intended babies to mess with our well-planned lives.

Sharon Hodde Miller, guest blogger

For all the ways reality television star and Hollywood socialite Kim Kardashian and I differ from each other, we do share one striking commonality: We both turned 30 this year. And for both of us, our entry into this new decade sounded an alarm on our biological clocks. It is ticking ever so loudly, which means we are both thinking more and more about babies.

Kardashian recently shared her thoughts on the future with gossip magazine US Weekly, saying that she would like to try for kids in the next year. Kardashian explained, “Well, I won't have [a baby] by the end of the year, but maybe we'll start trying by the end of the year. After the wedding [to NBA player Kris Humphries]."

Although US Weekly’s interview with Kardashian was a relatively benign, feel-good piece, it incited frustration in blogger (and onetime Christianity Today columnist) Mollie Ziegler Hemingway. Responding to the interview at Mommyish, Hemingway wrote,

“I guess what annoys me is the general idea that we can effectively plan when to have our children. I mean, it is true that you can take actions to prevent conception…But just because you want to have children doesn’t mean they will come… “…Kardashian is saying nothing that different from what I hear many men and women say. But should we treat babies as a consumer good? I mean, the last time I said I was hoping for something and hoping I’d get it by the end of the year, it was an iPad. Babies are no iPads. They are not consumer goods to be acquired. They are blessings granted to couples. Our language should reflect that.”

As a woman who is currently in major talks with her husband about having children, I have felt the tension that Hemingway named. Amid our discussions about the “best” time to have children, I sometimes feel crass speaking of our future children as scheduling conflicts. Like Hemingway noted, these are children we’re talking about, not iPads.

Both inside and outside the church, the dominant language about having children is consumerist in tone. The conversation more often occurs in the context of “when is best for us” than it does God’s intended design for marriage. My husband and I chose Natural Family Planning as a way to avoid the secular approach to childbearing, but we still notice the cultural mindset creeping in at unexpected times. We are both pursuing our doctorates, so we easily slip into the language of “fitting babies” into our programs.

One might of course argue that these are mere semantics. Whether we use language of “fitting” babies into our schedules or eagerly welcoming them, the outcome is often the same. Does our word choice really matter?

From a Christian perspective, the answer is a resounding yes! We first learn about the power of words in Genesis 1, where God literally speaks the world into existence. Later in John 1, Jesus himself is referred to as the “Word” through whom all things were made. John Calvin summarized God’s power-infused words saying, “[God] fulfills whatever he declares; for he so speaks, that his command becomes a reality.”

As beings created in the image of God, our words have a similarly creative power. Our words may not speak material into existence, but our speech shapes the way we see and process the world. It creates new ways of understanding, which impacts the ways we live. It either builds up and tears down, which is why Proverbs 18:21 tells us “the tongue has the power of life and death.”

With all of that in mind, the language we use about children is important. Our words shape the way we understand life itself, an urgent truth in a culture that increasingly questions the personhood and dignity of the unborn.

How, then, can we honor the imago dei in our discussion about children? How can we talk about having children in a distinctly Christian way?

Christian teaching on wisdom and stewardship provide us with a great place to start, but we cannot stop there if we want to break with consumerist language. An additional Christian principle that wrenches the focus off of us and places it on our children is hospitality. Rather than “fitting” these divine image bearers into our lives, we actively work to welcome them, both in our own families and in the world at large.

And finally, the Bible almost exclusively refers to children as a blessing. For all the frustration and exhaustion that children can bring, they are a gift from God made in his image. Rather than speak of children as a burden or an obstacle, our language should reflect the image they bear and the immeasurable worth they possess.

For all the debates about when life begins, I believe it begins in the mind of God. God exists outside of time, so our future children are as real to him as if they were flesh and blood. Knowing this, my husband and I will continue to navigate this conversation clumsily and imperfectly, but I pray that our words will reflect our children’s eternal value to their loving Creator.

Comments

I still think you are discussing semantics. If you were pregnant outside of a time you choose (as about 50% of all pregnancies are) you would not reject the child. Some would and do. So the issue, when you are discussing when to have a child, is not the value of the child itself, but of the timing of the child. Timing makes a difference. Getting pregnant at the wrong time, especially while people are in school can prevent actual completion of schooling. So the child can suffer a real lack when the adults in their life are inappropriate in their planning of when to have a child.

Words are important, but not for the sake of the words themselves. Words are important for the meaning they communicate.

Timing makes a difference so it's ok to murder? Jesus talking about a millstone around the neck when talking about keeping a little child from coming to Him comes to mind. I read an article several years ago, and wish I could find it again, but it gave the story of 10 horrible sounding childhoods, many with deaths of the parents when the child was little, or of great abuse of the child, and then it told who those people were. And they were 10 people that made a real difference in the world, people like Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, etc. I'm sorry I don't have the article here, but many of the readers I'm sure, were born at perhaps the "wrong time" for the parents, yet they are of course, very grateful to be alive, and their parents are thankful that they didn't think of ending their lives.

I had a friend once whose mother was 54 years old when she was born. I'm 55 now, and can't imagine how hard that would be, but I would of course have the child, if I were so blessed. That friend is a strong Christian with a few grandchildren now. Her mother did just fine raising her. I think many people don't give God credit for His total sovereignty in the world, and in every event that happens. He is completely omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. No baby is a surprise to God. No new believer is a surprise to God. God says that He foreknew us, and that He knitted us in the womb. Perhaps it is more of a lack of belief and trust in God. Being a believer is much more than just knowing that He exists, satan knows that. Being a believer is placing your trust in God and giving Him control over your life. It's not an easy thing to do for many, but that's what it takes to really be a believer in God. You know and trust that He will see you, and the baby, through times that are both easy and rough.

Bloggers have the right to rant over whatever they like, but I find it weird to latch on to a statement about trying to have kids at a certain time. You'd think it was appreciated that Kim Kardashian is at least planning to get married before trying to have a baby.

I'm wondering, if couples DON'T talk about about when, or specifically if, they want to have children, what is the alternative? Just wait and see with no birth control? Wait until the other person brings it up and until then say nothing? It seems to me there's a whole lot of that going on already. There are enough single moms out there that I don't think we need to discourage anyone from having a conversation about family planning.

I'm truly baffled by this... I don't even think there is anything to discuss here. Of course you want to talk about when to have a kid. It's the responsible thing to do.

A friend of mine has a favorite story - she knew a couple that had been trying for years to have a child and were getting frustrated. One day she counseled them and told them that timing is key - its not just about their desire to have a child but it was about God's timing -that God was planning it perfectly so that child would be born at the right time, meet the people he/she was supposed to meet, influence the people that he/she is supposed to influence, learn from the people that he/she is supposed to, etc.... They accepted those words of wisdom and a few months later....were pregnant. :)

I guess though, that I'm a bit frustrated that someone would be calling out those that are thinking about trying for a child. It seems uncalled for. Unlike most of God's blessings 2 people actually have to do something to help it along (unless your name is Mary and you lived 2000 years ago) - so they do have to "try" - and that's what "trying" means - knowing that it may work or that it might not work.

I'm not married so its not like this is an issue affecting me presently but it seems to me this is just a way to put guilt on people - if you and your husband think its the wrong time - well God will tell you - if He has a child He wants to bring into this world then you will get pregnant - and if you do get pregnant, immediately rejoice in knowing its God's will and He has plans for your family. I'm sure its probably easier to be receptive to wanting the blessing (ie, "trying") but you and your husband have an inkling of the types of lives it looks like God has for you so its OK to say "I hope we get pregnant next year"

At least that's the way I see it.

We talked about when we'd like to have our children too. We both have summer birthdays, and liked them, and wanted to have our kids born in the summer if possible. Well, needless to say, the first one was born a few days after Christmas, and the other two were not born in the summer either. But that hardly makes me sorry we had them! I would give my life in an instant for them. I lost a few babies to miscarriages and had an ectopic pregnancy after my firstborn, and was told I had only a 25% chance of having any more children. Well, I had 2 more, and God gave me the 3 children I had hoped for. It doesn't matter when they are born, if you're unfortunate enough to lose any pregnancies, you realize that the main thing that matters is that they are healthy. We didn't have much money either when we had our firstborn, but God always provided. We were fortunate that my husband got a better job later on, and God has always supplied us with more than our needs.

I usually really enjoy this blog, but this post is just silly. When we talked about having kids when we were first married we discussed when. God had other plans for us and we welcomed our first son 2.5 years before what we had planned, but is a natural conversation to have. Are children a commodity? No, but it also seems like a perfectly normal and responsible conversation to have with your spouse.

While this is similar to an article I wrote this morning - http://itisbygrace.blogspot.com/2011/06/dare-to-be-disciple.html - this truly is an age-old debate. Leaning on His word, "children are a reward from him." (Ps 127:3) those who choose to cherish the blessing that children are will reap the rewards promised mentioned in scripture. Children are given to the righteous and the unrighteous. The distinction, as servants of God, is to raise our children to know and understand who He is, and to learn, lean, and trust in Him in their own lives.
"No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them." Isa65:23, 24

I haven't the slightest about what this post is about. What did you want Kardashian to say, "Perhaps, someday we will pursue the blessing of parenthood?" Color me completely bewildered. Perhaps, as some co-missionary friends of mine, they shouldn't discuss it at all and divorce after receiving the blessings of 7 children they just never planned for. My brother and sister-in-law are pursuing adoption after 4 years of trying for their own biological child. Perhaps they shouldn't do this either. Maybe we should only just let the Jesus magic give us a "surprise blessing baby." Really? I don't understand this piece at all!

Children ARE a blessing, but I have trouble with the view that trying to find the best time for that blessing is a bad thing. I'm sure we all know people for whom birth control did not prevent anything. Yes, my husband and I are planning NOT to have children until post-seminary, but we are fully aware that our planning does not always match up with reality. We've had the "what if" discussions and have determined that if we become pregnant before then, we will consider the child a blessing and be joyful and know that God is with us. Until then, I believe doing the things that God has called me to do (prepare for ministry) honors God. That doesn't mean I'm buying and selling children or that I don't consider them a blessing.

I actually really appreciated this piece. Children are becoming more and more commodified in our culture--witness the baby-as-accessory trend in Hollywood--and our language is one aspect of this.

As a young single woman, I've witnessed many of my friends trying to plan out every detail of their future children's lives, even to the extent of, "If we have them 2 1/2 years apart, then they'll be unlikely to have weddings the same year." I'm pretty sure this is only setting yourself up for disappointment and your children up for failure (in your eyes) when life (God?) takes over and changes THE PLAN.

Isn't there a place in the gospels where Jesus says something to the effect of "Don't say you'll go here tomorrow and buy that next year, but always say, 'If the Lord wills, I will go here and buy that.'" It seems to me that that change of language teaches and reminds us that our lives aren't our own to arrange and enjoy according to own specifications (and neither are our children's).

Good food for thought here. Our language does reflect a widespread preoccupation with trying to create the perfect circumstances in which to have a child. As if there were any such thing as "perfect" in this world.

I also get annoyed by the way babies are treated as commodities in contemporary US culture, but I don't think talking about "trying" is a symptom of that. What troubles me slightly more is when the author writes that she chose "Natural Family Planning as a way to avoid the secular approach to childbearing." I, for one, have never been convinced that NFP is ethically superior to other methods, although many of its proponents really seem to think it is.

I have to second Jennifer above. Of course my husband and I have talked about when/if we have children. And of course, if something did not happen on "our timing" we wouldn't change a thing. There is a difference in being aware and being blindly set in your ways. Aware is good. Immovable stubborn painful rock is not.

I do not understand the way people talk about kids, planning it all out and "fitting them into their life" like it is something to check off the to-do list. I am scared of the possibility of parenthood and have never had a biological clock (even at 30) but if it is God's will why would I stop it?

I would want to be sure I can honor, cherish and value my children as they deserve to be. So I would like to wait until a bit later in my life when a few loose ends are tied if that is what God has called me to do. I do not see that as unrealistic but being aware of your priorities and knowing that it may take extra strength and reshuffling of life to ensure that the good in your life is honored. But in the end, it's not up to anyone for the who, what, when or where - it is all up to God.

As someone with a health condition who has been told by her doctor that having a baby without taking specific actions 6 months to a year prior to conception will result in a 100% chance of birth defects (including, but not limited to a baby born without a brain), I think it is appropriate, responsible, and yes, Christian, to talk about and plan the best time to have a baby. Yes, babies are their own blessing and are in themselves, god-bearers, but that doesn't release parents from responsibly caring for their children's best interests even prior to conception. And for some of us, that means "fitting in babies" and giving them the best chance we can to life. I'm glad we planned for our first - a healthy and active toddler - and will take the same loving steps and precautions in"trying" for a second.

I understand what the author is saying, but in today's day and age I really don't think it's avoidable to talk about babies and timing. My husband and I talk about it all the time. Access to birth control means you can time your babies (to a degree, of course). The two things are inextricably intertwined.

We also use NFP (TCOYF)and actually I feel that it has given us even MORE control over my fertility than any other method, because I know exactly what's going on in my body pretty much at all times. Not only can I avoid pregnancy whenever I want, I can become pregnant whenever I want (barring fertility issues, of course). I don't believe it's ethically superior - it just rocks. But yes, it has given me an amazing sense of control over my life. I take it as a blessing, though.

I'm a mom of six kids: three biological, three adopted (three have disablities). Though it will sound ridiculous we didn't plan any of them -- not even the adoptions. They all were God's idea. I'm not against the planning thing but God has the ultimate say.

That being said, the better questions to ask would be: are you ready for your life to be no longer your life? Are you ready to give everything, to lay aside your dreams to raise children for Jesus? You can't keep hold of your self stuff and be a great parent.

I love being a parent and I love my children so much, but when I was single and had no clue what parenting really entails, if I had gotten an honest glimpse of the sacrifice and all-consuming job parenting is, I might have high-tailed it and ran away fast. Thank the Lord He doesn't show us all of that or the population would have died out long ago!

I can't help but note that the overall these which author seems to imply is that we should NOT try to plan for when we are best prepared to welcome children into our lives AFTER she herself has used a method to try to delay children in her own life. It sounds a bit like a case of 'do as I say, not as I do'.... Is she willing to commit to NOT trying to use ANY method of birth control, going forward?

It is good to recognize that babies should not be viewed as a commodity. It is also necessary to realize that despite what we might wish to be reality, many people do not have the background, experience or finances and social support to enable them providing a loving and nurturing environment in which to raise children. This is true both within and outside of the church. Sadly, I believe this is reflected time and time again in families I see, where the parents had the best of (pious and perhaps misguided) intentions to let things happen in "God's time" (i.e. meaning no birth control) and were not properly prepared for the arrival of children - only to have a bunch of kiddos and then go on to lead stressed-out, unhappy lives that give their children a very twisted perspective on the Christian life (i.e. lives lived in frustration, relational difficulties, etc.), with these situations often ending in divorce.

Churches and Christian communities need to intentionally build nurturing communities that help individuals & families both interact with, mentor, and learn to love human beings at all stages of life. While it is well and good to talk about how we view - or should view - welcoming children into our homes and lives, please remember that real people are impacted by these decisions.

As a college professor, it frustrates me to see so many comments by readers who seem to be unable or unwilling to identify the the thesis of an essay. This is an increasing problem among the students I teach, and this discussion thread indicates just how widespread the problem is.

Here is the question the author asks in the post: "Does our word choice [in discussing the topic of having children] matter?"

Here is how she answers the question in the post: "From a Christian perspective, the answer is a resounding yes!"

The post does not argue against having such conversations, but points out the biblical principles that might guide the language (and therefore the thoughts) that shape such conversations.

I know it's "just a blog," but if one is going to take the time to post a response, I hope readers, especially Christian ones, to take the time to correctly identify the actual points being expressed.

College Professor, "comments" are just that--comments. And the points that the author uses in support of her thesis are fair game for commenting upon. Further, no one is arguing against the thesis: that words don't matter--it's just that this thesis doesn't seem to be particularly trenchant.

College Professor, I don't think that the problem identifying the thesis, but the fact that the thesis is buried in details that really dismiss it.

It may be "just a blog post" but all the details and points were about something other than the real thesis, so people are responding to the points that resonate. Isn't that the responsibility of the author to write in a way that doesn't hide the thesis?

I really appreciate the comment by college professor. I think a lot of people in this comment thread are missing the point of the post. The question is not- should we use birth control, or should we create our own plans around having children. The real question, as the author says, is: "How, then, can we honor the imago dei in our discussion about children? How can we talk about having children in a distinctly Christian way?"

I'm due with my first baby next month. The journey to getting pregnant was a full year of prayer and discussion with my husband, family and friends. We discussed my fears in becoming a parent (I'm selfish- am I ready for this?) my confessions (all my friends are having babies, I want one too), and the realities (how will we ever afford a baby? Should I stop working? Do I want to stop working? Will being a mother define me?)

I guess what I'm trying to say is- I can relate to that clumsy conversation that treats children as another check on the list of things to do or accomplish. As others walk through this same journey, I don't expect their conversations to look differently than my own. But I do know my responses to their questioning looks different than it did before. Now I can say- "Keep seeking. Keep asking. Keep pursuing His leading. He will answer. He will show you the way."

Sharon, my husband and I are academics. We too have our ambitions. Once in the last year or so my husband pointed out that we were talking as if our daughter was an interruption.

The realization was horrifying. Because in speaking that way, we were unwittingly forming latent attitudes that would translate into how we treated her. So we speak of her as our gift. When we get into a parental funk, we remind ourselves that she is our gift. And more importantly, as a commenter already pointed out, we remind ourselves that she takes priority over our ambitions. Our worst nightmare is for us to shape her into a twisted child. I do realize of course that there are other forces at work (including her will) that determine how she'll turn out. We hope and pray that she'd grow up sensitive to the Holy Spirit and as a devout disciple of Jesus. My point is, as your post suggests, words do shape how we view our children. Thank you.

College professor.
I don't have a Ph.D. after my name, but I also teach college level English composition and literature for a state university *shock and horror, I know*

Granted, the author's thesis was "Christians speak differently about the planning of children than the world". Her answer is "yes" but then she doesn't go about explaining about how that should be done. Merely, she prances about in a simplistic way about how we can't actually plan our futures and (in her title) how babies are God's way of going "hee, hee, hee! Gotcha, huh?"

Perhaps she'd like every Christian statement to be hedged with "The Good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise," or, "but we'll be so happy when and if the Lord decides to bless us or not bless us in His good timing with children, either of our own biological making or through the loins of another."

One doesn't need a college degree to understand that the best laid plans of men oft gang awry, however, the author does nothing beyond whinge about how Christians don't spend enough time modifying their speech to consider such "awry" possibilities.

Communication needs efficiency, and to impose magical Christian standards upon one's hopes and efforts for the future, with regard to speech, is, frankly, just the sort of hand-wringing that helped me see how impoverished religion really is.

Oops, missing important modal verb in the above. "Christians should speak differently about the planning of children than does the world." Hopefully that will ease some of the anguish.

I understand not treating children as goods to be bought or sold, but as others have expressed earlier in the comments, I do not believe God wants us to be irresponsible in the way we have children. I know those who are financially drowning in debt because they had 6 children in a very short amount of time. It is understandable for those couples who want to plan in order to provide the best environment possible for the baby, but in those cases, you also need to receive an unexpected pregnancy as a blessing.

I appreciate those who have tried to focus the "comment conversation" back to the author's original question as to how we can talk about having children in a way that will honor the Lord and be different from that of the world. This is Sharon's whole point...not what kind of birth control to use, how many children to have, or even when to have them...but how to have that conversation. I also appreciate how Sharon readily admits that she and her husband's talks about having babies haven't always resonated with her as glorifying to God. What I gathered from her post was that she felt that the way the world discusses kids (as commodities) so easily seeps into the Christian mind, and perhaps it shouldn't. Perhaps our words about when and how to have kids, and how many to have, are damaging. Perhaps we need to be cautious in our thinking and talking about having babies.

As a mother of one baby, and with a desire to have more, my husband and I have asked the Lord for wisdom about how that all works, how to talk about it, and really, what will honor Him most. I don't think there are necessarily right and wrong words needed for this conversation, but there is a right and God-honoring mindset. Its a mindset that trusts the Lord to provide the time, energy, money, and support for an expanding family. Its a mindset that seeks His glory first, sees children as blessings, and brings parents to the place where they are willing to truly lay down their lives at the throne of God and take up the role of parent--a role that demands the unchartered waters of selflessness. So while our words are important, I would postulate that they reflect the heart and mind, which parents (or future parents) must turn towards the Lord for help.

I liked this post by Sharon Miller for many reasons but two things I would affirm. 1. She brings up the issue of control. Many young women do not consider personally that we are not in control ultimately of when (or if) we will get pregnant. This type of thinking can lead to frustration for the woman who wants control of all aspects of her life and is waiting due to career or finances (yes I know there are other reasons, but I am addressing those who wait for those reasons of control). Scheduling a baby for when it is convenient or financially affordable may mean we are scheduling one right out of our lives. 2. Words do hold meaning. Meaning is in what we say or write whether that be in a blog or in commenting to that blog. I am encouraged that this writer is encouraging women to think about words and their impact. For as it says in Matthew 12:37 "by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

I know this goes beyond the intent of the author. But while words matter, it is actions and obedience that really matter more. We can affirm right belief and say all the right things. But if we still do not actually follow through and act on those words, then really the words mean nothing. So I am always a bit concerned when Christians talk about words. Because the problem is rarely the words. The problem is almost always the actions. No one is more obedient than their thoughts or belief. We are always less obedient than what we think we should be. So as important as words are, and I do belief they are important, I think for Christians, the words are always less important.

san, you say that reading Taking Charge of Your Fertility for NFP has given you complete control. I think that unintentionally illustrates what the author is trying to say. While NFP when practiced faithfully does give you 99% control over having a child when you try to conceive you will discover that even by timing everything properly you only have a 20% chance each cycle of conceiving when both prospective parents are healthy. The point is that children aren't something we can just will into existence by doing everything right. They are always a blessing from God and their conception is extremely complex. It takes the average woman of 27 years of age 5 months to conceive. Once conception occurs there is still the 10-15% chance of miscarriage, usually early, due to a plethora of possible issues over which the parents-to-be have no control.

The language of children as blessings helps to illuminate the sovereignty of God over their being and all of life. I appreciate this language much more than the idea that we can do everything "right" and out will pop a child nine months later.

Adam-

You used words to express your thought that words matter less than actions. In this medium, I can't see your actions all I have is your words.I can't get into your head and understand your thoughts, even if I subjectively claim I can do so. The meaning is in your words. So whether I write it or whether I say it, I must be careful that what I believe, think, feel is expressed in a way that glorifies God my Creator. It is out of the overflow of the heart that the mouth speaks (Matt 12:34).

Katie,

I acknowledged in my own post that NFP of course depends on both parents being health. And actually, many women have immediate success with NFP in the first cycle. "The average woman aged 27 5 months to conceive" - is that with or without NFP? I'd also like to see a source for the 20% chance of pregnancy per cycle with proper timing. In any case, women who do practice NFP have more control over getting pregnant than those who don't. Finally, I guess this is something I didn't really express well in my post, but I struggle with the added control that FAM gives me, and I sympathize with the blogger's main point. However, I choose to interpret it as a blessing.

just to add - I interpret it as a blessing, rather than waste anxiety over it.

Jan,

I agree with you. But I do think we spend a lot of time talking about things that really don't matter much (yes I know I am commenting four times on a blog post to say that it probably isn't all that important), while not doing the things that actually matter a lot. Not saying you or even this article. But whenever I see Christians arguing about semantics, I wonder if we are doing it because the issue is important, or because we like to argue (or if we are using it as an excuse to not actually spend the time doing what we should be doing.)

Adam-

James probably sums it up best: "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do" (James 1:22-25).

I'd like to see Hermeneutics cover the topic of control. Specifically controlling women since I am a woman. What are the pitfalls of being control freaks both for single and married women? How does saying "It's my way or the highway!" affect our relationships.

Children are not "God's design for marriage". The first partnership was so that Adam would not be alone and without a human companion (the word is 'helper', only used elsewhere in Scripture to describe God). Children were a blessing, not a command. The decision whether or not to have children comes before the (positive) planning of when to try. Being considerate and thoughtful are reflections of God's character as well (He doesn't do everything the second He thinks of it) so planning is a good thing.

San, the figure I quoted of five months comes from the fertility charts on http://www.fertilityfriend.com. As you may know, Fertility Friend is a charting website used for FAM/NFP and/or pregnancy achievement. It's a place to put in your charting data in case you don't want to do it by hand or through other software. As for the 20% chance per month, ask any doctor. I unfortunately don't have a definitive source, as I've seen and heard it in too many places.

I'm so glad for those couples who have achieved pregnancy on the first cycle trying. At the same time I think those who struggle for a few months, several months, or years stand as reminders to everyone that ultimately the gift of life is from God, not something we can order up.

Your post seemed to imply that you have yet to attempt pregnancy. I hope that God makes that journey smooth for you when you get there.

Bart-

Wondering how you interpret Genesis 1:28 and Genesis 9:1 if not as a command. You say, "Children were a blessing not a command," but I think you need to read these two verses and apply them to your theory.

Bart, maybe you forgot the following verses, where God did command people to be fruitful and multiply. God's plan is obvious for a man and a woman to procreate, and even though it's not always possible to have children, God designed male and female of each species to not only be a help mate but to procreate. His design was never for those who believe they are "homosexual" to be together, and He made that clear when He called it an abomination.

Genesis 1:27-29 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, “*Be fruitful and multiply*, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

Then God told Noah and his family the same thing in Genesis 8:16-17:
“Go out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, that they may breed abundantly on the earth, and *be fruitful and multiply on the earth*.”

Again to Noah and his family in Genesis 9:1-3 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, *Be fruitful and multiply*, and fill the earth.

Genesis 9:6-7 For in the image of God He made man. “As for you, be fruitful and multiply; Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it.”

Then God spoke to Jacob (and called him Israel) in Genesis 35:11-12 God also said to him, “I am God Almighty;
Be fruitful and multiply; nation and a company of nations shall come from you, And kings shall come forth from you. “The land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I will give it to you, And I will give the land to your descendants after you.”

Then in Lev 26:9 in speaking to the Hebrews: "So I will turn toward you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will confirm My covenant with you."

Then in Jer 23:3 in the prophecy about Israel once again becoming a nation (fulfilled in 1948) “Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and multiply."
This verse shows that the church is *not* Israel. The Bible is supposed to be interpreted literally unless it is clearly metaphor.

Another prophecy about the future Israel, and a reference from God about multiplying.

Ezekiel 36:10-11 "I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt. I will multiply on you man and beast; and they will increase and be fruitful; and I will cause you to be inhabited as you were formerly and will treat you better than at the first. Thus you will know that I am the LORD."

Barbara,

Everyone of your citations are promises/commands/blessings on the particular country of Israel. How do you think we should discern between instructions to Israel and instructions to us as Christians? Should we assume any instruction to Israel is something that we as an individual couple should take on ourselves?

Adam, perhaps if would be better if you could explain why the country of Israel should suddenly be taken metaphorically when it always meant the country of Israel throughout the Old Testament. Every country mentioned in the Bible has always meant the country specifically as far as I know. Ethiopia referred to Ethiopia, not something else. In hermeneutics, people are supposed to take the plain meaning of the text unless it's an obvious metaphor such as "the wings of God". Replacement theology seems to be the result of people not trusting God's Word to take place, when it always has in the past. For instance, it took a LONG time for Israel to become a nation again, but God said he would gather people from the north and from many countries and gather them together again in Israel. It says the dry land will once again become fertile, etc, and this has all happened. It also took a LONG time for the promised Messiah to come, but He came in God's time. If you take it literally, you'll see that a lot of other prophecies are being fulfilled in our time. For instance, it says that all the nations will turn against Israel. Well, until this presidency, the US, Turkey, and Egypt, and Canada were allies of Israel. Obviously, the US, Turkey, and Egypt are no longer allies. Obama broke off promises that Bush had made regarding the sale of certain aircraft for the Israeli's to be able to protect themselves, and has been very negative, to say the least, towards Israel. They are constantly asked to give up territory before coming to the bargaining table. All of the Moslims just seem to want is the annihilation of Israel. In Revelation, it says Gog and Magog, and the middle east countries will come against Israel, but God will intervene supernaturally. What parts of the Bible do you believe regarding end times?

Sorry, I forgot to add this. Jeremiah 23:8 "But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land." (see John Wesley's explanatory notes)

John Wesley- "They shall dwell — Possibly part of this prophecy remains yet to be accomplished for the Jews are not yet come to dwell in their own land."

I don't read commentaries too frequently, but note that Wesley lived in the 1700's. Darby lived in the 1800's. Darby didn't invent this interpretation, neither did Tim LaHaye. It is just a plain reading of the Bible. I was once at the christianethereal site and did find the literal interpretation of the "end times" from a few early church fathers there as well. David Cooper wrote in 1940 in "When Gog’s Armies Meet the Almighty in the Land of Israel":
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word as its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”

And to add to Barbara's comments - how could those commandments be for Israel when Israel did not exist prior to Abraham. Adam and Eve and Noah and his wife (poor woman, we don't know her name) are all considered gentiles. The father of Israel is Abraham. Anything prior to him is for everyone.

How did this article's comments segue overnight from my post to Bart on Genesis' be fruitful command to Adam and Eve into a discussion on Israel, homosexuality and reformed vs dispensationist theology. This article is about how we speak in regard to children and the rights/wrongs, pros/cons of "planning" for children. Amazing meandering posts.

Leslie-that's obvious. Re-read my post, I stated to whom God was speaking each time. I think you must have just given it a glance. God said to be fruitful and multiply to various people throughout the history of the Bible.

I am a Christian, 32, have been married for 9 years and am childless. Due to a medical condition that has never been truly diagnosed, even 17 years and countless doctors later. I was put on "the pill" at the age of 15, a full 8 years before I would get married and have sex for the first time. Due to a variety of reasons, I had gone off the pill for a while, but it became increasingly clear that I had to go back on, again for health reasons, around the time that we got married. Each day, as I took that pill, I said, "Lord, I am taking this pill, but if you choose to bless us with a child anyway, I will rejoice." He never chose to do so. Three years ago, we chose that I would stop taking the pill to "see what would happen." My health issues have been largely not a factor, (that is I have been able to deal with them and go about my daily life, which has not always been the case) but I have still not gotten pregnant. So, I rejoice in others' children, pouring my life into them, teaching and sharing with them God's ways and truth. Meanwhile, there are many that judge my husband and I that we don't have children. I am not bitter, God has a plan, even if I don't understand it, I just wish that others would understand that even if you do everything seemingly "right" we live in a fallen world and not everything happens the way we plan.

Barbara,

I was unclear. Clearly those scriptures were intended for the particular country of Israel. That is my point. To take them whole and apply them to the US or to us as an individual couple is to misunderstand the use of scripture. I am not saying that we may not find value and instruction in Old Testament texts. But you are suggesting a whole sale adoption of these texts as instruction to modern US couples. To do so would need some theological discussion about why you think those apply to modern US couples.

And even the most conservative understanding of scripture is that the creation and early stories in Genesis were not written before Moses, so the compilation was written for the original audience of Israel. So I still maintain that all of the scriptures you are suggesting apply to us as modern US couples were actually written to the historical and real country of Israel.

@Jan - Welcome to the internet where conversations will often be fluid and change. It's ok - really :)

@Barbara - I wasn't referring to your post at 7:12pm - I was referring to Adam's post. It was apparently not obvious to him - as he's also followed up again that those were supposed to be promises to Israel. Which they aren't. Israel became Israel when God told Abram to "go" and he did. Anything prior to His promises to Abraham are for the world. We are all descendants of Noah and his wife (just as we are all descendants of Adam and Eve) - when God gave them those commands He was giving them to all of their descendants - not just to a specific line.

Leslie and Barbara,

If you think the blessing are for all, not just Israel, then are the commands for all as well? If so why do we not follow the Levitical Law? Picking just the blessing and but not choosing the commands may be what some Christians do, but it is not a very honest way to read scripture.

Yes Leslie, some commands and blessings are for all people, but a blanket, everything before Abram seems pretty arbitrary. Why not say everything before Moses or everything before David. Maybe you are right, but what you have shared so far is just a hint at your theology of this and if you are going where I think you are going we will probably just have to disagree, but I think it can lead to some pretty bad theological thinking.

The problem with trying to apply the clear meaning of scripture is that things are fairly often not that clear. That does not mean that we cannot understand, just that study and discussion are required to determine what the the scripture really is trying to say. There are all kinds of things that seem clear in English that doe not mean what we think they mean. Solomon's son saying my little finger is bigger than my father's thigh is a good example. He didn't mean little finger, but another part of the male anatomy. And it was not about the anatomy part, but about proving how strong of a King he was going to be.

We can and should be reading scripture, but we should be reading in community, with good teachers and with a lot of biblical resources.

Adam - I'm not going to respond to your questions because I simply cannot understand how someone doesn't agree that God's commands/promises/blessings for Israel started with Abraham (and conversely that up until the time of Abraham that all of God's commands/promises/blessings belong to the whole world). Until I can understand that I'm not going to be able to effectively answer any of your questions - usually with most theological debates I can understand where the other person is coming from so it makes it easier for us to converse without risking alienating each other. I don't want to risk that and by the time I've done enough research to understand where you are coming from we will have moved on to something else. I am not going to comment further here for now. I hope that's ok.

Leslie-

Thanks very much for your warm welcome to the Internet. I don't think anyone has ever welcomed me to it before. However, I am confused. I thought that "message boards" were a place where you carried out conversations like this, but "article comments" were supposed to be comments on or relating to the article posted. Perhaps you and your friends need to review the guidelines posted for this site. Specifically under "General Use Rules" and the sub-heading "No Off-Topic Discussion".

Warmly,
-Jan

Although my husband and I haven't yet started this conversation, I have seen more than 20 miscarriages play out in just a handful of women whom I love. I have seen, time and time again, that one cannot "plan" when to have children, because in fact God's plan wins out every single time. And sometimes He chooses our plan, but sometimes He makes us wait - 1 month, 6 months, 2 years, 8 years.

I've thought a lot about this topic of planning children and the language that surrounds it. I, too, get frustrated when hearing people who haven't experienced miscarriages start to plan for future children. The language suggests, "We will start trying and nine months later I will give birth to our first child." I try to kindly warn, "Don't be so sure your plan will go according to plan."

At the end of the day, though, I come to this conclusion about the semantics of it all: yes, we try to plan because we like to think we are in control. Yes, we try to plan to fit our own needs. But also, we like to plan for the child. We like to plan so that the child can be welcomed into a relationally and financially stable home, so that he/she has the best start to life that we, in our current childless frame of reference, can imagine.

The choice of if/when to start a family is one to be entered into with thought and maturity. Sometimes we're not given a choice when handed a SURPRISE! in the baby department, but if we're fortunate enough to be able to plan and take the time to build a strong foundation of a home for our future children to brought in to, I say take it.

My husband and I have 4 children. The first 2 were completely planned! And we love them dearly. The last 2 were both surprises and we love them dearly. I can't imagine life without them.

God blessed us in our planning and in our unplanning (for lack of a better word).

Sometimes I don't feel blessed (on those days I just want them to go to bed and leave me alone), but I know that I am and I'm thankful.

Everyday, God teaches me more about His love through them. I have friends who have not been blessed with children, and now they are making plans to move forward with adoption or just let it be.
We are always making plans. Sometimes those plans change and sometimes those plans stay on the course we expected.

Last Sunday, I planned to go to our church's picnic, but my blessings all were diagnosed with Strep Throat. So instead we stayed at home. Was it a sacrifice? yes! Was I upset? yes! Did we make new plans? yes! Was it ultimately a blessing? probably.

So I wouldn't worry. We need to be responsible for what we've been given and the decisions we've been given to make.

I think the issue addressed at the beginning of the article is what we should be focusing on: the idea that we make a decision to have children. Several times since getting married I have been asked when we plan on having children. I am always answering, we'd love to have children and we hope that's something we're blessed with someday. I don't really want to refer to when we have them as the time I have decided or if I'm not able to have children, I don't want to start out with a sense that I definitely will. I think that is the best sentiment from the author.

I’m glad you brought up these points. It’s so true! My heart goes out to all of you that are in this situation. For all of you who are TTC, here’s a story for you. My wife and I tried to have children for over 3 years. We were contemplating IVF and adoption, but just trying to save up the money for either was an obstacle. Finally, a family member told us about a product called BeeFertile. It’s a natural fertility product – no prescription required. It’s a 2 part kit and has Royal Jelly in it, which is supposed to be really good for increasing fertility. We were skeptical, but decided to try it. It was so much cheaper than having to take fertility testing, etc. So they tell you that it takes 3-6 months for it to work. I’m happy to report that only after 3 months of taking the kit, my wife was PPT!!! Check it out: www.beefertile.com

@Barbara, I fundamentally disagree that Genesis 1:27 is a command, either corporate or individual. In the first place, the text specifically says it's a blessing. The phrasing is the same as Jesus telling the leper, "Be clean" (Matthew 8:3). Is Jesus telling the leper to do something? Of course not. He himself is the provider of the action, speaking something into existence. Just so, in Genesis God is enabling the human race to be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth (just as in the prior verses, his word has brought creation into existence). The meaning might in some senses be clearer if the wording were "May you be fruitful and multiply..." But that would make it uncertain and contingent, and there is nothing uncertain and contingent about God's action--he has decreed it, so it happens.

Secondly, even if it were a command of a sort, clearly it is not a requirement for every individual. If it were, anyone who does not marry would be violating the "command," even though Paul and Jesus both commend (and exemplify) those who choose celibacy for better service to God.

This does not deny that the natural order of humanity is for man and woman to marry and have children. But there are those for whom the natural order doesn't work for any of a number of reasons, and even aside from that, I see no reason to believe that anyone is required to have the maximum number of children one is physically capable of. ("Too much of a good thing is wonderful" is Mae West's line, not God's.) The call to fill the earth is certainly not a command that any single couple has to fulfill by themselves.

I am the delighted father of two young boys, but the second was a surprise; I told people, "We know where babies come from, but we don't know where he came from." We had reasons for not wanting to try for a child at that time, but God overruled us, and we joyfully accepted what he brought. I don't think we were wrong to do as we did, and if I had it to do again, I would. But at the same time I give thanks for the child God gave us. (Not least because we did go through a miscarriage and infertility issues before our first was born.)

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