Hermenuetics

Comments

Watch DWTS? No, and not because of one contestant or another. It's just not my cup of tea.

But I watched the entire season of Expedition Impossible this summer and one of the teams that made it to the finals was a trio consisting of a brother and sister and the brother's ex, another young man. I can't say I even considered the existence of an ethical dilemma in watching the show. Perhaps this is because both of my kids are grown and in college now. I might have chosen not to have it on with them in the room when they were young, but I doubt it.

Society has a lot of different types of people in it, and some people's choices needed to be explained more carefully to my kids than others. One of those types (and an extremely prevalent one) is heterosexual people who decide to live together without getting married first. Now that one took a lot of explaining and steady reliance on God's word.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | September 19, 2011 6:28 PM

Wow, Tim. You really hit the nail on the head and illustrated exactly what this thoughtful post gets at: we love to "normalize" sin (the ones we "like" or "understand") in ways that reflect the culture much more than they reflect the the message of the gospel. How much more prevalent (and how much more tolerated by Christians) is that sin you point out: heterosexual people living together unmarried.

Great post sure to produce great discussion!

Posted By: Karen | September 19, 2011 8:08 PM

Back in the 80's I remember having a discussion in church about whether Three is Company would normalize the idea of male/female roommates. We talked about how the media can change our viewpoint, but most insisted that male/female roommates would never become acceptable.
We've come a long way baby.

Posted By: anon | September 19, 2011 8:50 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful post. You give Christians a good name. It is refreshing to see an intelligent and mature discussion devoid of rhetoric.

Posted By: TransZack | September 19, 2011 9:42 PM

Hello. My name is Karen; since I'm not the Karen that posted above, I'm using a different name.

I'm a transgendered Christian. I attend (well, have started attending) a welcoming and affirming church (that is, one that is accepting of LGBT people) in my hometown. There are many more than you might expect; most of the mainline denominations (including Presbyterians, UCC, and Episcopalians) have come to accept that God made us who and what we are.

Having been there, I must say that the numbers quoted for suicidal thoughts don't seem right. Virtually every trans person I know, particularly those that come from religious homes, has thought of suicide. For myself, I spent almost half my life considering ending my life on a daily basis.

One of the greatest difficulties I had was in justifying how I felt - suffering and alone - with the concept of a loving God. It was a difficult road; while walking it, I lost my faith entirely - becoming anti-theist ("If God's going to reject me, than I'll reject him right back) in the process. It wasn't until I actually started the transition that I came to realize a few things.

I'm not a theologian. My thoughts on the subject come from many years of agonizing over this; they may not be entirely "normal" beliefs.

First, God made me in the womb - but that doesn't mean he made me as I came out of the womb. If we are to give free will any power, it must include the possibility of it triggering environmental effects. Does God strike down children that die of birth defect shortly after they were born? No, because he didn't give them the defect; it grew as a portion of the corruption.

My brain is not normal. It is, in fact, the brain of a woman, or at least shaped like such. It also had a major chemical imbalance; it doesn't react normally to testosterone. Here's my thought: God knew that the human body would be corrupted within the womb - he knew that my brain and body would not match - and so, rather than giving me a male soul to go with the male body and female brain, he gave me a female soul to go with the female brain and male body.

Second - if I am wrong, his grace will still forgive me.

Third - if I hadn't transitioned, either I or someone else would be dead. Between the stress of the brain-body interactions not working correctly, my nearly complete lack of ability to form social bonds (diagnosed sociopathic as a college-age person), and my literally not caring what I looked like or if I lived vs died, I'm very lucky to still be alive.

Finally - here's an additional thought. I'm one of three Christian transpeople I know. Three. Out of several dozen transgendered people raised in Christian homes. The attitudes of Christians towards us is a huge portion of why.

We aren't evil. We aren't sinful - well, no more than any other person. We plain and simply have a medical issue that is being dealt with. Not many Christians are willing to accept that, and their attacks on our ability to live with ourselves end up driving us away.

Posted By: "Newly" Karen | September 20, 2011 12:13 AM

As an older member of society I'm rather dissapointed in TV. Yep, I can turn it off and frequently do. If I want education, there are a few educational channels but for the most part TV is less entertaining (for me) and more an attempt to normalize what someone else wants me to consider "normal." I for one have absolutely no issues with people with alternative lifestyles; actually it represents several people in my own family.

What I do have a problem with is having it shoved in my face 24/7. Enough already. Do what you want to do and leave what should be family entertainment alone. For pity sakes I personally don't care who you sleep with or how you finalize the sex act. Just do it and let people alone.

Gender or sexual issues are hardly the only culprit. Murder, rape, how to disect a body, and on it goes on practically every channel. Murder is so "normalized" now from TV we are numb from the constant reminder that people are animals and kill just for he heck of it.

Not long ago I decided not to watch anything that was not trying to "normalize" something. Just entertainment. I ended up with re-runs of Fraizer and Andy of Mayberry. Other than the Discover and History channels that was about it.

As for DWTS, it has been one of my favorite shows. Last night was the first show of the season. Sure enough, I couldn't just watch Chaz get out there and dance. There just simply HAD to be a lead in about transgender. What does that have to do with dancing? Nothing and it was clear that Chaz had been chosen, not because he was a nice guy who needs to loose a few pounds and learn to dance over the next few weeks, but because he was transgender. I do feel for the families who do not want to be "normalized" and watch the show purely for their love of dance.

I wish all of them well but if this constant "accept me because I'm transgender" theme continues, I won't watch it. Enough already.

Posted By: Maggie | September 20, 2011 8:17 AM

Wow, this is an issue I've never really thought much about. I appreciate both "Newly" Karen and Maggie's perspectives. I certainly don't want any person to feel hopeless or out of God's reach. But, I also agree with Maggie's opinion. What does transgender have to do with dancing? Wouldn't just having Chaz on the show, without all the lead in, more fully promote the fact that he's just another normal person? What does it really have to do with dancing?

I'm certainly ignorant in this issue, though. I look forward to reading more comments over the next couple of days.

Posted By: Monica Selby | September 20, 2011 8:40 AM

Elissa,

Thank you for your thoughtful Post. And Karen (TranZack), thank you for your comment. So much of what you disclosed resonates with me and, I'm sure, with many transgender persons, whether they are Christian or not.

I for one am glad there has been so much discussion about Chaz Bono's competing in DWTS. God only knows how many transgender persons live with their secret in complete terror of coming out to family and friends. Sadly for some, disclosure of gender identity (and/or sexual orientation) can result in judgement from family, friends and church.

Though my disclosure was about being transsexual and that I was in the process of making changes, I had not yet come to the place where I felt I could transition and still did not know when I would finally take that step. At the time, my dad was 89 and my mom 83 and I feared my disclosure would make the few remaining years of their lives more difficult. I also had not disclosed to our adult sons either, but I had already shared with many of my friends—including my pastor. Though I was loved and affirmed by all with whom I had shared, I knew I would not be able to transition until I shared with my parents, or I would have to wait until they both died. Could I wait another five to ten years to transition?

One day I was thinking about my sons and I was praying to God if any of them had some issue they needed to tell me about, that they would never fear that I would reject them and condemn them for it, regardless of what that issue might be. How sad would that be, that they would fear coming to me? That is when the thought hit me, that my parents probably felt the same way about me. I knew at that moment that I needed to tell them. I had feared how they would respond and had imagined the worst-case scenario, that my mom would be devastated and blame herself and that my dad would kick me out of the house and tell me I was dead to him. This is not what happened; the complete opposite occurred. This was three years ago and I am always in awe at how the two of them have embraced me and love me unconditionally. From time to time, they get the pronoun and name wrong, but after having known me for six decades by one name and gender, what can I expect?

Fear is an insidious thing, it can paralyze us and keep us from moving on. I lived with fear all my life—I feared rejection, being different, being laughed at and being lonely as a result. I also feared how my disclosure would impact the most important people in my life, starting with my wife, followed by sons, parents and siblings. I did not want to hurt anyone and I would have preferred death if all my fears were realized. I was not immune to thoughts of suicide, but I know that whenever I entertained those thoughts, that the Lord was able to keep me sober of mind and protected me from self-destructive behaviors and actions. For this, I am grateful.

I have met transsexuals for whom it has not gone well, who have been rejected by their “Christian” family and their churches and condemned to hell. I have tried to understand how this could be and as I have compared notes with my new friends, all I have come up with is that for years Christians have been sold the binary view of sexuality and that everything else is an abomination. “He created them male and female…for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife…” Ironically, this is the same verse I used to flog myself with in my attempt to “retrain” my mind, hoping to exorcise the demon inside me. It is also ironic how it wasn’t until I read the full passage in Matthew 19:1-12 and understood its context that I was able to reconcile my faith to my transsexuality. Those are sobering words that Jesus spoke, that not everyone would be able to understand. He was referring to the fact that sexuality was not always binary, that some people did not fall neatly into one sex/gender category, the implication being that sexuality was not binary to begin with.

I have discovered that when people are able to understand this fundamental truth, that their fundamentalist view of sexuality, gender and orientation get turned upside down and they suddenly get it. My prayer is that more people would be able to receive it.

Lisa Salazar
Co-ordinator: Transgender Ministry, Lighthouse of Hope Christian Fellowship
Board Member: CanyonwalkerConnections.com
Author: Transparently: Behind the Scenes of a Good Life

Posted By: Lisa Salazar | September 20, 2011 9:33 AM

The "T" in LGBT often seems to be the least recognized and most alienated by the Christian community. But I think it should be the reverse.

Even though I tend to identify myself with the "affirming" side of Christianity, I know the conservative theology, and from the conservative theology lens, I can't help but think that gender dysphoria would be treated with the utmost compassion. Just because you can't see the pain, doesn't mean it's not there. The suffering must be simply intolerable.

I am disgusted by groups that think an open discussion about gender dysphoria opens children to some sort of unnatural / unhealthy curiosity. Puh - lease. We as a society have open discussions about all manner of topics that kids can't fully wrap their heads around. If you don't know how to address this as a parent, ask and move forward.

Furthermore, anyone who says that this stuff is being "forced" on them just because it's all over TV has no business using the language of force. You and your family are not forced to watch TV. You're attracted to entertainment. If you find it is sinful or a stumbling block in your life, get rid of the TV. Quit blaming society; look inward first.

And play board games with your family. That's way better entertainment than TV, regardless of whether the TV programming is controversial. :)

I'm extremely pleased by the testimony of Newly Karen. For being "no theologian," you certainly have had your share of suffering, and it is in suffering that we can find God's presence. I learned from you today. Stay strong.

Posted By: Patrick | September 20, 2011 9:36 AM

Correction: I mistakenly said "Karen (TransZack) in my comment. My apologies, it should have been "Newly" Karen.

Posted By: Lisa Salazar | September 20, 2011 9:54 AM

I have watched Dancing for the last five years and really have enjoyed it. Most fans are watching it for the professional dancer cast, not the cast of (lesser know, semi-)stars that changes every season. There have been several references to gay culture and non-Christian family agendas on the show through previous stars, so Chaz's life story is not that unique to the show. I have only toddlers now who are in bed by the time he danced last night, but if they were children who could understand a conversation about how God thinks of our genders and our life choices, I would have that conversation with them. I think I will mention GID to my kids but I think giving them facts AND my opinion of the facts AND scripture references to God's opinion of the facts are all important.

PS - Chaz was not a horrible dancer. The routine was lively and I think he will stay for the next four-five weeks, but not be a finalist.

Posted By: Bethany | September 20, 2011 10:38 AM

This is a non-issue for me. I don't understand the fuss. He is who he is, and I don't see the benefit to the gospel of demeaning him and his value as a human being. I can't say much more than that.

Posted By: Robyn | September 20, 2011 10:45 AM

Transgender people have been around as long as there have been ways to change genders. I believe we are born like we are for a specific reason - genes go weird and a male becomes a female, or vice-versa.I worked with young people like this 20 years ago - as far as having them shoved down our throats by TV - that is why there are channel changes on the TV. People who do this take on a very heavy load as we see with Chaz. I think that either homosexual or transgender people carry a burden. As a minister I struggle with the fact that our church just opened up the pulpit for avowed homosexuals with one or multiple partners. I, personally, have a problem with this - but I can always leave the church and go to another church if I so choose. Life goes on whatever!
Live and let live covers a multitude of sins - we all fall short of the glory of God. God loves the world we are told, not necessary all that live on it. We will all stand before the presence of God at the end of the ages - where will we be on that day is the question?

Posted By: Eugene Edwards | September 20, 2011 10:45 AM

Elissa,

Your article makes some thoughtful observations about this challenging issue to Christians. May I add for your readers' consideration these questions: 1) Is it a "sin" to be suffering from adrenal hyperplasia due to a 21-hydroxylase deficiency, resulting in multiple hormonal abnormalities? Behavioral masculinity can be the result of aphysical reality; 2) Dick Schwab at the Netherlands Institute for Brain Research, discovered the curious similarity of a tiny part of the brain, the bed nucleus of the strius terminales, of male-to-female transsexuals, even prior to hormone treatment. Although this could be attributed to the Fall, just like any other variation in human physicality, labelling this as a "sin" because someone's brain is different is like accusing a person with epilepsy of being demon possessed; 3) Scientists at Medical University of Vienna, Austria discovered a gene variant in the enzyme Cytochrom P17 that controls the metabolism of sex hormones. The presents of the gene variation could "cause higher than average tissue concentrations of male and female sex hormones, which may in turn influence early brain development." (Fertility and Sterility, DOI:10.1016/j.fertnstert.2007.05.056) Shouldn't a genetic uncommonality be addressed by a person's physician through medical treatment, rather than being addressed by the clergy as an issue from which they should "repent"? 4) Using dynamic MRI scans, researchers at UCLA found discernible similarities between pre-hormonally treated male-to-female transsexuals and "normal" females (Neuroimage.2009 Jul 15;46(4:904-7. Epub 2009 Mar 31. Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism). If someone's gray matter functions as a female, can you imagine that it might actually be cruel, incompassionate, and unkind to accuse such a person of "sin" for feeling and acting the way their brain is structured to function? I recommend to the Christian community that they be long-suffering with intersexed, transsexual, and trangender folk. Many, like myself, have followed Christ for many years. We are your brothers and sisters. There is a vast difference between fetish behavior and those who are simply trying to live with an extremely difficult inner conflict that has proven genetic and brain morphological causes. Jesus was asked once, "Who sinned?" when presented with a man born blind. In that case, no one sinned, but the man was born blind so that God might be glorified. Even so, though we are all sinners, for whom Christ died, not all uncommonalities are the result of sin. I believe that His grace is also sufficient for people like me, yet I am still unwelcomed in most evangelical churches. That is the Church's loss, for I too have gifts. But, perhaps the Lord's mission for me is to those whom the church has considered unworthy of fellowship, for fear that we might somehow infect or confuse their children. Far be it from me to cause anyone to stumble in that regard. Yet, I feel the Lord's heart may ache for the many Christians, and their families, whom I know who struggle with this issue who have been banished from fellowship, accused and labelled forever as unrepentant sinners, unworthy of the love and fellowship of believers. I hope my few words give you something to thoughtfully consider.

Posted By: Bren Breithaupt | September 20, 2011 11:01 AM

Had a few replies to comments, and additional information now that I've had a chance to think about it.

Maggie:
As for DWTS, it has been one of my favorite shows. Last night was the first show of the season. Sure enough, I couldn't just watch Chaz get out there and dance. There just simply HAD to be a lead in about transgender. What does that have to do with dancing? Nothing and it was clear that Chaz had been chosen, not because he was a nice guy who needs to loose a few pounds and learn to dance over the next few weeks, but because he was transgender. I do feel for the families who do not want to be "normalized" and watch the show purely for their love of dance.

Honestly? I agree. Dancing with the Stars is one of the shows I haven't watched and never will watch. But the previous contestants, from my viewpoint, haven't been a lot better. Some have stood on their own merits, but many are famous only for being family members of other famous people, or famous because of a scandal.

Here's a brief list of issues past contestants have had:

-A woman who literally got married for money (a Bachelorette)
-A probable steroid abuser (Holyfield)
-2 Playboy bunnies, one of whom has a "sex tape" floating around
-Jerry Springer
-Leeza Gibbons
-A member of the Spice Girls (whose most famous song was about sleeping around)
-Adam Carolla (a very dirty comedian that used to cohost a sex talk show)
-A reality star most famous for having a sex tape
-A rapper that was convicted for perjury for lying to a grand jury about a shooting
-A singer most famous for being Ozzy Osbourne's rebellious daughter.
-Pamela Anderson
-A singer that sings about wanting sex and how famous she is (she won that season)
-A lesbian comic with a raunchy, sexist and (if I remember correctly) racist repertoire
-A politician investigated for having received gifts from Abramoff (Tom Delay)
-A athlete that was convicted (or maybe plead guilty) of domestic abuse
-At least one alcoholic
-At least one unwed mother, famous for being that as the daughter of a politician (Bristol Palin)

Now, that said, Chaz isn't exactly a common celebrity family member. Is that why he became famous in the first place? Yes. But he's been involved with LGBT rights since he first came out; he's help write at least two books, has been involved with movies about LGBT people, and has been an advocate for us for many years. Dismissing him as just Cher's child is like dismissing Martin Luther King the III (MLK Jr's eldest son) as unimportant because he's the child of a hero - even though he's done a significant amount of work himself.

Monica Selby
Wow, this is an issue I've never really thought much about. I appreciate both "Newly" Karen and Maggie's perspectives. I certainly don't want any person to feel hopeless or out of God's reach. But, I also agree with Maggie's opinion. What does transgender have to do with dancing? Wouldn't just having Chaz on the show, without all the lead in, more fully promote the fact that he's just another normal person? What does it really have to do with dancing?

Personal opinion? That would have been the best approach. Unfortunately, his being announced as being on the show has led to a significant backlash from people like Keith Ablow (who, I noticed, didn't say anything about how glamorizing Bristol Palin's life might lead teen girls to try to get pregnant). If they didn't mention it, it would be the elephant in the room.

Lisa Salazar

Thank you. Too much here to quote and comment on and keep a reasonable post length, but yes, that aligns very much with my own experiences.

My father's a Baptist. Not just a Baptist, but a Southern Baptist. And he's one of the more conservative ones. Yet, when I came out to him, he didn't scream, shout, or throw me out. Instead, he asked me to think very seriously about it, and to discuss this with one or more therapists before I did anything.

When I finally made the decision to transition, 6 years later, he was tolerant of this - he thinks of me as his prodigal son, but he's happy that I appear to be happier, and he will love me no matter what I do. An interesting note is that my step-mother - with whom I've never had a good relationship - has not only decided that she accepts me, but prefers the "new" me over old me. Though really, that (and the name Newly Karen) are kind of a misnomer; I've always been Karen, I've just lied to people and called myself Kevin.

Patrick
I'm extremely pleased by the testimony of Newly Karen. For being "no theologian," you certainly have had your share of suffering, and it is in suffering that we can find God's presence. I learned from you today. Stay strong.

While I am probably underemphasizing how I felt (despair isn't a strong enough word), what I've suffered is minor compared to what some of my friends (LGBT or otherwise) have gone through.

One was assaulted by her parents and thrown out of her home with nothing but the clothes on her back.

One was divorced by the woman she loved, who took their three children. My friend hasn't heard directly from the children since, and it's very possible she never will.

One just had to face her parents in open court over a custody matter; her parents called her an abomination before GOD, and were overjoyed as their grandchild stood up to declare that "my mother's homosexuality bothers me". This happened within a month of her ex-wife passing away "suddenly".

One (non-T) has been assaulted repeatedly throughout her life. She has severe seizures; she gets checked for concussions an average of once a month due to striking her head on things. In addition, she has severe chronic pain.

One lost her wife, her kids, and her job. Even though the place she worked was "supportive". She was "offered" the opportunity to transfer to one of the more dangerous positions at the government she worked for.

One (non-T) is hiding her sexuality from her family and friends; she's attending a private Christian University, and is terrified of being outed - because that outing would lead to her expulsion. Since she's studying for a religious career, the vast majority of her credits wouldn't transfer over to a new school.

One friend has been transitioned for a long time. She's been depressed; she was being harassed at her job, and when she reported it she was fired. Her next employer allowed the harassment as well, but she was scared to report it. Now she's at a new job, and she's decided to go "stealth" - that is, not let people know she's trans.

Compared to them, my pain and stress are almost nothing.

Bren Breithaupt

Again, too much to quote, but all excellent points. I'd considered making the epilepsy:demon = trangender:sinning link; it's especially interesting to me as a childhood sufferer of epilepsy.

Posted By: "Newly" Karen | September 20, 2011 11:24 AM

I have watched DWTS in the past but haven't for a few seasons. Sometimes I tune in but usually have a lot going on. I can only take what I know about this situation from the posts I read above. If they lead into the show talking about Chaz's sexual situation I think that is not needed for the show. For him to be on it I think is just fine. A sin is a sin is a sin and if I ever were on that show I am sure someone could find a sin of mine somewhere -- to God all sin is sin.

That being said, what Newly Karen wrote has got me thinking. I don't think it is as cut and dried as we think. If what she says is true, that she had a female brain and soul in a male body then it would make sense for her to get a female body. I don't have this issue. I don't know. I've always wondered if someone who had one of these major change operations would feel led to go back to what he/she was before she was saved when he/she got saved. If it is a physical thing, then maybe not....IDK.

Talking about epilepsy -- I just saw it in newly Karen's last post -- my son has had epilepsy since he was 3 months old. He is now 12 years old. Grand mal seizures are as common as water in our household. Daily he battles with seizures that make him scream and cry and shake and if anyone sees one of these seizures for the first time, they are quite scary. Because of these seizures he is physically at a 3 or 4 month old skill level. He spends his days being read to by me, rolling on the floor watching his ceiling fan and lying in his bed looking out the window. We read a lot. We read very intelligent books for though he is a baby in body, he is a very smart young man in mind.

Only God knows what is going on in the inside of all of us.

That being said, the main thing is for people to come to know Jesus. If they don't know Him why do we focus on their sin? They have no power to resist sin if they don't have Jesus. We aren't an exclusive club. Jesus died for everyone so we could know Him. And He calls us in the shape we are in.

Posted By: Jane Hinrichs | September 20, 2011 1:01 PM

There is a more mundane problem with Dancing With the Stars that probably does much more to tear down humanity as God intended us to be. The outfits the dancers wear and the movements the dancers make, while impressive, are pretty calculated to be sexually provocative. And that's a more serious problem to the millions of happily heterosexual Christians who watch the show. Call me a prude: my mom called what they do "dirty dancing" and we stayed away from it. Is it any surprise that my generation--teenagers when MTV first splashed onto the scene--has been the first to engage in the widespread and open use of pornography (to its grave detriment)? Worrying about the messages given out by having one poor confused soul on as a contestant should maybe take backseat to this larger issue.

Posted By: Annie Kirkby | September 20, 2011 1:02 PM

My objection to Chaz Bono being included among the DWTS contestants is that clearly his only reason for being on the show is that he's transgender. He's not a celebrity - just happened to have parents that were/are. He is simply one of those that, as Os Guinness (and others) have described many people, are "famous for being famous." I admit that don't understand the dynamics of transgender life. And as some have posted above, we shouldn't classify some sins as "acceptable" (because we can identify with them) and "unacceptable" (because we can't). But USA Today recently published a column stating that secular research has shown that less than 3% of the total population consists of gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender individuals. Yet if you would believe the media and TV programming, you'd have to conclude that it must be at least 25%. So I elect to use my TV clicker and avoid shows that obviously intend to advance the gay political agenda.

Posted By: Bob Tamasy | September 20, 2011 1:52 PM

Jane Hinrichs
That being said, what Newly Karen wrote has got me thinking. I don't think it is as cut and dried as we think. If what she says is true, that she had a female brain and soul in a male body then it would make sense for her to get a female body. I don't have this issue. I don't know. I've always wondered if someone who had one of these major change operations would feel led to go back to what he/she was before she was saved when he/she got saved. If it is a physical thing, then maybe not....IDK.

Jane,

I'm happy to hear that I'm having an influence on the thoughts of others. Whether they agree or disagree, at least people are thinking. For most people, this is far too rare these days.

I look at it this way: There are three non-binary categories where most people see one or two: Gender, Sex, and Orientation. Sex can be male, female, or intersex (biological signs of both); Gender can be boy, girl, or "genderqueer" (a catch-all term for those that ascribe no or both genders to themselves); and orientation can be towards men, towards women, or towards both. Our soul is tied to our gender, not our sex.

That idea is probably heavily influenced by science fiction attitudes: If you have an AI that is placed into a man's body, or a "freaky friday" swap of two people, does the soul change with the body or does the soul simply remain as it is when God created it?

Annie Kirkby
There is a more mundane problem with Dancing With the Stars that probably does much more to tear down humanity as God intended us to be. The outfits the dancers wear and the movements the dancers make, while impressive, are pretty calculated to be sexually provocative. And that's a more serious problem to the millions of happily heterosexual Christians who watch the show. Call me a prude: my mom called what they do "dirty dancing" and we stayed away from it. Is it any surprise that my generation--teenagers when MTV first splashed onto the scene--has been the first to engage in the widespread and open use of pornography (to its grave detriment)? Worrying about the messages given out by having one poor confused soul on as a contestant should maybe take backseat to this larger issue.

Annie,

Agreed, almost completely. I do think that the porn issue has more to do with the advent of the WWW and lack of direct parental supervision involved in it than with anything else.

As for it being more widespread... well, I'm not 100% certain - having only lived one childhood - but from everything I've heard it's not actually more widespread, people are just more open and honest about it. Exposure to adult material is a rite of passage for male-appearing children, and has been for centuries - from peeking over the wall between locker rooms, to drilling holes in walls, to finding (or otherwise gaining access to) magazines or even catalogs.

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 20, 2011 2:13 PM

Bob Tamasy
My objection to Chaz Bono being included among the DWTS contestants is that clearly his only reason for being on the show is that he's transgender. He's not a celebrity - just happened to have parents that were/are. He is simply one of those that, as Os Guinness (and others) have described many people, are "famous for being famous." I admit that don't understand the dynamics of transgender life. And as some have posted above, we shouldn't classify some sins as "acceptable" (because we can identify with them) and "unacceptable" (because we can't). But USA Today recently published a column stating that secular research has shown that less than 3% of the total population consists of gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender individuals. Yet if you would believe the media and TV programming, you'd have to conclude that it must be at least 25%. So I elect to use my TV clicker and avoid shows that obviously intend to advance the gay political agenda.

Bob,

Chaz isn't a celebrity in his own right, true. But he's been politically active for quite a while; he's one of the more invisible celebrity politicians, and he's actually done a lot of good for LGBT people.

As for the USA today study, I believe it's incorrect, or based on faulty methodology. The numbers I've seen are closer to 10%, not 3%. Keep in mind that many LGBT people are absolutely terrified of being outed; until I started outing myself as part of my transition, I wouldn't have answered any questions along those lines.

My wife and I were even members of a LGBT-friendly gaming group, and for most of the first year we were called "the straight couple" - because I was so scared of being outed that I was hiding my orientation and gender while a member of an organization that was explicitly supportive of such people. There was no way I would have been willing to honestly answer a survey about it.

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 20, 2011 2:30 PM

Three points:

It's easy to see how the media "uses" both sides to get ratings.

Until you walk in someone elses shoes you just don't know how it is.

1 Samuel 16:7 says it all for me. If the inside is good enough for God then it's good enough for me.

Posted By: Gary | September 20, 2011 3:08 PM

There is a very simple solution! Stop watching DWTS. Turn off the television!!

Posted By: Linda Kennett | September 20, 2011 4:26 PM

As a transgender male I was apprehensive to come and look at it after a recommendation on my Facebook page, but I am glad I did. I started reading practically with one hand over my eyes through a slit in my fingers...that's fear folks. I'm pretty well used to the things said about my spirituality and doubting my salvation, but it is never easy to be banged over the head…even when you are used to it. I must say I was surprised by much of what was written here, and actually started breathing again halfway through or so.

Let me start by telling you I am an Assembly of God preachers kid. I was raised in church, gave my heart to Jesus early on in life, and never told anyone about being a boy inside. (Well, once it was hinted at and ended badly…so not again.) I was affectionately labeled a "tom-boy" as a child and that was that. I was a "pleaser" I never liked to rock the boat and severely hated when someone was mad at me, so to them "tom-boy" it was. (Though I didn't even know the name for this at the time, I just knew "tom-boy" had a girl rooting or connotation and THAT just didn't fit the view I had of myself.)

I did a good job burying him from everyone, in my late teens and early 20's even managed to bury it fairly good from myself, but it never ever went away, the struggle of not matching my body was just always there. I tried to do things the "right" way...married, had 2 beautiful daughters, spent time on the floor apologizing to God for the feelings I had and asking for resolution. I was told once when I asked a family member "Don't you think I TRIED?" Her response was "No... I don't think you did." It gutted me. She just doesn't have a clue.

In my 30's it hit me full force and I couldn't take it anymore. For awhile I snapped...Oh I was still attending my parents church, but inside I was blowing apart with all that I knew would come with my disclosure. I "wasn't disappointed"...I wish I had been.

Reactions were horrible. Even the "loving" ones of advice and trying to convince me that "many girls felt somewhat masculine and didn't like to wear dresses" hurt me to the core. No one was REALLY listening. When I tried to push it more, the responses would become more short and cutting. After that the settled consensus was that I was simply "deceived", "buying into a lie", etc. The pain grew, and to cope I took to alcohol abuse, self harm, suicidal entertainings, hopelessness and anger. I was then told that my feelings were a result of my "choice". I wanted to scream and step in front of a moving car ! My feelings were a direct result of the reactions to me. I was the same person they smiled at and called a "tom-boy" that ran around on the hill behind the parsonage with my buddies getting sweaty and grimy years before. I never changed, the only difference was, now they knew the whole truth and suddenly I wasn't just a harmless "tom-boy" anymore.

To make a long story short, I know I'm loved by my family, but this is the elephant in the room we don't talk about anymore. After a season of running from God, I finally wearied and turned around to find Him and ran right into Him. I found He'd never left me. Approximately four and a half years ago I started making a relationship journey with Him for the first time in my life. I dropped the curtain I was trying to get to know Him through all my life and just got honest with Him. I think He was waiting for me to do that. He's a gentleman, and though He could have blasted through that curtain at any point in my life, He waited for me to make that choice myself. That WAS a choice I made, and at that I gave Him something to work with. He delivered me from SO much! Alcohol is no longer a necessity to cope, I don't do things to harm this body any more, I want to LIVE, and I have HOPE! I have relationship with Him and not only has he NOT delivered me from being a trans-man, he has given me a burning desire to help my trans brothers and sisters get to know Him and have relationship with Him too!

The sad part is, because we don’t talk about it now, my parents have no idea really what God has done in my life, and what kills me is the paralyzing fear I have of them to tell them. The reactions have been such in the past I fear for their health over the matter, and I fear that my experience with God will be reduced to some sort of counterfeit in their eyes. I fear this every day. So many things I want to tell them that I am so excited about…and can't. This is the only part of my life I feel lonely in, extremely so. Though we speak, I feel so estranged from them from the fear. I know many of my trans brothers and sisters experience the same and I only pray that God reveals Himself to them the way He has to me and be the same comfort in them in the pain they feel.

Posted By: Lance | September 20, 2011 4:29 PM

This is a topic that interests me because while I wouldn't consider myself transgendered, I'm been fighting my entire life with gender stereo-types. I cut my hair off as a kid, really wished I could get a bowl cut but couldn't because it was a boys cut, hated dresses (still do), love sports, not sentimental, and am fairly often referred to as sir because I'm tall and have short hair even when I'm dressed up. I worry when I go into bathrooms when I'm not dressed up or wearing a hat because I've gotten strange looks and comments about being in the wrong place and even once been followed in by a male security guard. I've never wanted to be a guy, or thought than I should be, but I do desperately want to be able to be me, one that fits many more male stereo types then female one, and still be able to be seen as a women, have that be ok for a women and not be told I'm strange.
One question I would like to ask of those who have responded who are transgender is what feels wrong? is it your body? is it exceptions and stereo types put on your gender? if this whole idea of gender didn't exist and you could just live and express who you are with out those categories and pressures would you still have wanted to change your body?

Posted By: Julie | September 20, 2011 5:40 PM

I hope my questions come across as desiring understanding. That is the spirit that it is intended.

Posted By: Julie | September 20, 2011 5:45 PM

Before I say anything about myself I have to gush about the community here. This is the first time I've read a discussion of trans issues here and the grace and wisdom expressed has blown me away. As a transwoman and one-time SBC preacher, I've given a great deal of thought to both sides of this question and since I have accepted myself, I have spent not a little time visiting the sites where I expect to find the standard conservative evangelical talking points in an effort to bring a different perspective to the conversation.

This is the first christian oriented major community in which I have seen anything like this. On most such sites a thread this long would be littered with knee-jerk quotations from Leviticus and the generous use of the word "pervert."

What I usually try to bring to these conversations has been somewhat addressed already, or at least alluded to. The question of whether or not we speak of "sin" at all given the research out there, the reality of birth defects in a fallen world, the foolishness of the "god doesn't make mistakes" meme or the "Adam and Eve" illogic (i.e., that Adam and Eve were, so wee should all be today).

Beyond all that, I cannot comment without addressing for those who would assume - the whole notion of essentially "pray it away" is simply not an idea born out in our experience. When I was 22 I attended a Freddie Gage Crusade at which I was assured from the pulpit that if I would give me "besetting sin" to God and live my life to serve him, he would heal me of this turmoil. I took that advice and ran with it for 20 years. The number of prayers and pleadings to be made "normal" defies counting, all the while I not only sought and entered every door of service that would open, but toed the party line regarding the sinfulness of LGB/T people.

More distressing, I met and married a woman who had no idea of my condition (because I in good faith believed I would be healed as I'd been promised) and became a parent to two sons. These three individuals (as well as myself) are now experiencing a world of emotional distress that need not have happened, all because I was (unintentionally) lied to.

Her most of all because she clings fiercely to the traditional theology and is convinced I am making a selfish choice that is against God. I mourn for those in her situation who cannot see past tradition and bias and thereby both they and their loved ones suffer and some die.

In any case, my point is that no one could possibly have ever wanted to NOT be this way more than me. if it were possible to "will" it away or "pray it away" I would not be as i am today. for anyone to assume this is something I came to because I WANTED it would be a person who is just surrendering reasoning to bias. I have been near death by my own hands many times, and there are days when I still think perhaps I'd have been better to end myself than let my loved ones see the real me.

I think it's time the church started healing that hurt instead of contributing to it.

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 20, 2011 6:48 PM

Julie

One question I would like to ask of those who have responded who are transgender is what feels wrong? is it your body? is it exceptions and stereo types put on your gender? if this whole idea of gender didn't exist and you could just live and express who you are with out those categories and pressures would you still have wanted to change your body?

Julie

The answers to your questions aren't easy, and vary for each and every transgendered person. They can also be very long and complicated. Here's the simplistic answer, from my perspective: Hormones. For me, 95% of it comes down to that. My brain just does not work correctly with testosterone. Once I started getting estrogen into it, I was 95% better.

That remaining 5%? That's the stress of knowing that I was lying to every person that knew me. Every person that had ever known me. That I was, in truth, a woman; Karen, not Kevin. Also, the knowledge that if I kept taking hormones for the rest of my life, my shirts would get tighter and tighter and people might start wondering why.

As for gender roles, gender stereotypes - no, I'd say that played very little if any role in my choice. I don't particularly like makeup (I wear the bare minimum possible - which is still a lot), I don't like most dresses (I wear black pants or jeans most of the time, just like I did pre-transition), and I still work in a primarily male field (Structural Engineering; I'm sitting for my SE exam next year). I'm also one of the worst cooks alive.

At this point, I am invested in the idea of having the full surgical alteration. Why? Because I feel it's important to me. Because while the hormones are the key, the surgery will allow me to claim full legal and social rights as a woman - the SSA, for example, still considers me a man. So does my medical chart. And that bothers me.

Tammy Beth

Before I say anything about myself I have to gush about the community here. This is the first time I've read a discussion of trans issues here and the grace and wisdom expressed has blown me away. As a transwoman and one-time SBC preacher, I've given a great deal of thought to both sides of this question and since I have accepted myself, I have spent not a little time visiting the sites where I expect to find the standard conservative evangelical talking points in an effort to bring a different perspective to the conversation.

This is the first christian oriented major community in which I have seen anything like this. On most such sites a thread this long would be littered with knee-jerk quotations from Leviticus and the generous use of the word "pervert."

There is so much truth in this that it hurts. In fact, the one person that's actively (though indirectly) threatened me is a Christian; as reported to me, he told my employer not to send me to the site because "he wasn't sure he could guarantee your safety".

When I saw the link to this site on a friend's Facebook account, I was expecting a lion's den; instead, we're receiving true Love and respect. That means a lot to me.

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 20, 2011 7:13 PM

Karen,
Thank you much for for opening yourself and sharing that and thank for being apart of the conversation. Blessings.

Posted By: Julie | September 20, 2011 8:26 PM

The challange to the church is to welcome sinners as Jesus did. So Bring 'em on! But don't condone their sin.. Just love them so the Holy Spirit's convicting power can show them their wrong and they can repent and accept Christ...Then rejoice with them and support them as they turn from their path of rebelion, and grow into the strong Christian that God always planned for them to be..

Posted By: Ken Dale | September 20, 2011 9:55 PM

Ken,
with respect, I dispute the idea that this is sin. I welcome a discussion of whether that is a true assumption, but in the mean time, I will not concede that my condition is sinful (other than the general human condition) or that it's the church's place to condone or not condone the way in which I address my condition.

Julie,
Frankly I can't make my mind think in the terms of "if gender norms did not exist" - I have no frame of reference to make any such assumption and I really don't think anyone can.
For my own experience, it really is one of "being" - everything that constitutes being female, whether inherent or behavioral, is important to me. I've been mocked by those who would assume that I really don't want the downside of being female, such as having a period. but they are wrong. I can't say that I expect I would enjoy such an experience, but I do note with displeasure it's absence. If "normal" females didn't have breasts, I wouldn't want them - but they do so I do.
In terms of behavioral things - I sense myself as a "girly girl" - I like makeup and skirts and having my nails done and all that, but at the same time, there are traditionally "girlish" behaviors which don't appeal to me and vice versa (I'm a pretty serious baseball fan, for instance).

Also, and this is the hardest part, it's important to me to be interacted with as a FEMALE, not as a transsexual. I recognize that for many it's almost impossible to lay aside that piece of information once they have it, but it is still the ideal to which I aspire. And I think that is fairly normative of true transsexuals - none of us wants to be the "freak" or the "special case" that has to be accommodated with a knowing look because people are just to civil to laugh at us - we simply want to be seen as ordinary everyday people of our authentic gender.

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 21, 2011 12:59 AM

Ken,
with respect, I dispute the idea that this is sin. I welcome a discussion of whether that is a true assumption, but in the mean time, I will not concede that my condition is sinful (other than the general human condition) or that it's the church's place to condone or not condone the way in which I address my condition.

Julie,
Frankly I can't make my mind think in the terms of "if gender norms did not exist" - I have no frame of reference to make any such assumption and I really don't think anyone can.
For my own experience, it really is one of "being" - everything that constitutes being female, whether inherent or behavioral, is important to me. I've been mocked by those who would assume that I really don't want the downside of being female, such as having a period. but they are wrong. I can't say that I expect I would enjoy such an experience, but I do note with displeasure it's absence. If "normal" females didn't have breasts, I wouldn't want them - but they do so I do.
In terms of behavioral things - I sense myself as a "girly girl" - I like makeup and skirts and having my nails done and all that, but at the same time, there are traditionally "girlish" behaviors which don't appeal to me and vice versa (I'm a pretty serious baseball fan, for instance).

Also, and this is the hardest part, it's important to me to be interacted with as a FEMALE, not as a transsexual. I recognize that for many it's almost impossible to lay aside that piece of information once they have it, but it is still the ideal to which I aspire. And I think that is fairly normative of true transsexuals - none of us wants to be the "freak" or the "special case" that has to be accommodated with a knowing look because people are just to civil to laugh at us - we simply want to be seen as ordinary everyday people of our authentic gender.

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 21, 2011 1:02 AM

By the way, at the risk of opening a can of worms, let me give you all a bit of a "behind the scenes" primer into the world of the "transgender community"

There is, frankly, a bit of a civil war going on, particularly among the more vocal activist types. On the one hand you have what is usually refereed to as the Umbrella position" (or, derisively, "the Transgender Borg").

These people take the position that all forms of gender non-conformity, whether biological or elective, are equal. When they ask for "equal rights" they are just as interested in full acceptance for fetishistic crossdressers (to use one example) who have no desire to modify their physical form as for those of us born with a medical condition. these in turn are usually strong advocates of very firm conjunction with the LGB political lobby.

Those on the other side (which might be called, and often are, Separatists) hold that a factual distinction is proper between "true transsexuals" - those born with an actual medical condition which compels them to transition from one gender to the other (or at least desire to if they are circumstantially hindered) - from those who for whatever reason make an optional choice to defy gender-norms.

Not that the later group should be harassed, mistreated, or judged - quite the opposite - but simply a parctical distinction which notes that their concerns are not always our concerns. for instance, as a transwoman in transition, if I am employed it is essential to my mental well-being that I be able to present myself as female at work as elsewhere. in fact, the Standards of Care demand such full time living as part of the transition process. and yes, this includes the use of the ladies restroom.

On the other hand, a recreational crossdresser can rightfully be expected to restrict his recreational activity to his personal time, just as you wouldn't and shouldn't be required to let someone who enjoyed sunbathing wear their bikini to work. Nor should this person expect access to women's private spaces because of the outfit he happens to have on at the time.

(again, "crossdresser" is just an example - there is a wide variety of optional gender-non-conformity about)

This side also prefers to make a distinction in terms of activism, in that we are allies to LGB people but we are not the same thing - we insist (rightly so) that there is a clear distinction between orientation and identity. This does not mean we lack any degree of sympathy for the plight of gays, just that we wish to be understood on our own terms.

As you might guess, I hold the later position and I firmly believe that if the issue was presented in those terms that the Christian community would have at least a marginally more easy time coming to terms with transsexuals.

As long as we live in a society where people hear the word "transsexual" and they automatically think "like on Jerry Springer?" we'll never get any respect.

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 21, 2011 1:22 AM

I wrote a just-short-of 10,000 words essay about the transgender condition geared toward non-trans persons. I am also a Christian and since the resolution to transgender is medical, I see it as not a sin....sin begins with omission or commision....not appearance.

Posted By: Dee Omally | September 21, 2011 2:18 AM

Elissa,

Thank you for this gentle and tender and thoughtful discussion starter or perhaps furthering the discussion. It is much needed.

Posted By: Marlena | September 21, 2011 7:47 AM

One aspect of transition for transgender people that wasn't mentioned was the spiritual impact. The first time I was able to worship in church as Julie (I was born John) was one of the most precious, moving spirital experiences of my love. During transition I experienced clear consolation and direction in my faith walk as well as a clear sense of God's protection. Should it surprise us that transgender people feel closer to God when we seek to live a life of integrity by living in concurrence with how God made us? I delight in being the woman God made me.

Posted By: Rev. Julie | September 21, 2011 7:53 AM

This wouldn't bother me at all if the discussion centered around the fact that the transgender issue is a medical condition. The problem lies in the fact that it is being presented in many circles as "normal." Obviously, something has gone wrong.

Posted By: Copland | September 21, 2011 8:32 AM

Let's see... a recent long term follow-up study in Sweden (a gay friendly Nation) of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery; their conclusions???: "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group." Now tell me, if you require MORE psychiatric counseling after you have a procedure that is supposed to solve your identity issues, doesn't that mean your "sex reassignment" did not address the root issues you were trying to deal with???

Posted By: Kerry | September 21, 2011 9:10 AM

Kerry

Let's see... a recent long term follow-up study in Sweden (a gay friendly Nation) of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery; their conclusions???: "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group." Now tell me, if you require MORE psychiatric counseling after you have a procedure that is supposed to solve your identity issues, doesn't that mean your "sex reassignment" did not address the root issues you were trying to deal with???

Kerry,

You can't look at that in a vacuum.

First - mortality. Yes, of course we're at a higher risk of mortality. Antiandrogens have a significant chance of damaging our kidneys; estrogens can cause certain forms of cancer. Those are things that a person born physically and mentally male or female do not always have to deal with. Add to that the fact that our chances of dying to violence go way up, and it becomes obvious why we have a higher mortality rate. (Anecdotally, I'm one of very few people amongst my friends that has not been physically attacked.)

Second - suicidal behavior and psychiatric morbidity. I'd argue that there's a large percentage of false negatives; if someone kills themselves before transitioning and doesn't leave a note that explains why, transgendered issues wouldn't be included. In addition, we have people attacking us; attacking our ability to live. When we come out, it's extremely possible we will lose everyone and everything we love. I was fortunate; I lost one person I was friendly with, and in fact repaired more relationships afterward than I lost.

This takes a significant toll on us. All it takes is one rude person, and an entire week is ruined as we get sent into a spiral of self-doubt. When I was denied for surgery (for medical reasons) by the first surgeon I contacted, I fell into a deep depression for several weeks.

In other words - despite my personal experiences - hormones and surgery are not magic pills. They are effective treatments, not necessarily cures.

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 21, 2011 9:30 AM

First of all, no one is forcing anyone to watch anything.
Secondly, I think that it can be tricky to address transgender people immediately with the message, "God's grace can reach your problem too," because they will just get the same "love the sinner, hate the sin" message, and that is NOT a helpful message.

So what can we, as Christians, do?

1) Get in on the conversation. Truly. Get into it. Some place to start: Rachel Held Evans JUST posted a great blog post about being Christian and gay. Granted, it's not the same as transgender, but it carries a similar stigma in the church. Another great place to go is the GCN - Gay Christian Network. We really need to LISTEN to what these images of God are saying -- what they are going through -- and how they feel the church is treating them.

2) Get educated. I would recommend reading "The End of Sexual Identity" by Jenell Paris Williams (or is it Williams Paris??). The book was recently reviewed here, and Jenell is a writer for CT. It's a great way to get out of the traditional, evangelical approach to those struggling (or not) with an alternative lifestyle (because, let's face it, the traditional model is NOT working).

3) Compassion, compassion, compassion. Love, love, love. And start by asking forgiveness.

Posted By: even one sparrow | September 21, 2011 11:44 AM

"Now tell me, if you require MORE psychiatric counseling after you have a procedure that is supposed to solve your identity issues, doesn't that mean your "sex reassignment" did not address the root issues you were trying to deal with???"

A. Being "gay friendly" is not necessarily "trans friendly" - in fact, probably a higher percentage of gay people are trans-intolerant than the general population (as irrational as that seems)

B. We live in a world that in large measure despises us and considers us freaks and perverts (VERY often a function of religious teaching or culture but it seems to go beyond that to what "creeps you out") - in such a world it is perfectly natural to need continued counseling to deal with the fact that those who once professed undying love for you would now literally spit on you.

We lose spouses, children, parents, siblings, "lifelong" friends - and not just lose as in "grow apart" but lose as in being treated as if we were the scum of humanity. you don't think that might provoke a bit of depression?

I've a friend who's a post-op woman who "has it all" in terms of correcting her gender dysphoria - and she's a working doctor who is successful by any measure which in itself is a victory given how many of us can't get hired to wash dishes - but she is consumed with bitterness and depression because a vengeful ex keeps her two young children away from her, and fills their heads with the nastiest things about her.

It is well said that transition doesn't solve every problem, but without transition, EVERYTHING IS a problem.

Also, just by the way, surveys in this country suggest no more than 2-3% of post operative transsexuals regret their transition. One should not assume that because they continue to seek counseling it is due to regret rather than other difficulties of being as we are (and unless one so successfully manages stealth that no one ever knows your past, their ARE difficulties). to do so is merely a bit of confirmation bias on your part.

(also, it's not like yall "normal" people don't avail yourself of psychiatry, is it?))

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 21, 2011 1:03 PM

I am glad someone mentioned the Swedish study - it points up something I've known for nearly forty years.

And what I have known is this: Sex re-assignment surgery may solve one problem, but it creates seven new ones in its place.

That's because, no matter how much you meddle with the English language, Bono is still a "she" in an inerradicable part of her physical being. If that weren't so, she wouldn't require constant hormone therapy, and so on and so on.

Now if you're wondering how I became acquainted with such things at such a tender age - look up Stanley Biber's Wikipedia page. I used to live in Trinidad, Colorado and my mother worked in the hospital's business office.

Posted By: Kamilla | September 21, 2011 3:08 PM

Kamilla
I am glad someone mentioned the Swedish study - it points up something I've known for nearly forty years.

And what I have known is this: Sex re-assignment surgery may solve one problem, but it creates seven new ones in its place.

That's because, no matter how much you meddle with the English language, Bono is still a "she" in an inerradicable part of her physical being. If that weren't so, she wouldn't require constant hormone therapy, and so on and so on.

Now if you're wondering how I became acquainted with such things at such a tender age - look up Stanley Biber's Wikipedia page. I used to live in Trinidad, Colorado and my mother worked in the hospital's business office.

Hope my italics works this time. Anyway...

Kamilla,

it becomes a matter of scale. Yes, reassignment doesn't "fix" everything - no earthly thing can ever do that; we're only human, and what we do is as flawed as we are.

That said, transition - including hormones etc - does eliminate or reduce the power the issues have over one's life. As a therapeutic method, it works. As a cure? Maybe not.

Bono's genetics make him female-in-body, yes. But his mind is male - I already covered that discussion above. That said, you bring up a point that if he wasn't really a "she", he wouldn't need the hormones.

Are my friends with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome male or female? They have physically female bodies, but have significant testosterone levels.

What about women in menopause? Are they no longer women, because they are being given estrogen regimens? After all, if they were women, their body would create what they need... right?

What about intersex people; that is, someone with physical traits of both genders? Would someone that is genetically XXY - that is, has three sex chromosomes - be considered male or female by your definition?

Is dialysis a useless treatment because it needs to be repeated for the rest of the person's lifetime? Should we only allow surgeries and medications that fully cure, rather than eliminate the major issue?

Lastly - if a person born blind is given back their sight, but only if they take a pill daily - are they still blind?

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 21, 2011 3:59 PM

It all just zinged right past you into category confusion, didn't it?

Supressing or counteracting a normally functioning body is an entirely different sort of action to that of correcting an abnormally functioning body.

All of your examples fall into the latter category so they are inaequate or false countereamples.

Posted By: Kamilla | September 21, 2011 4:18 PM

Kamilla
It all just zinged right past you into category confusion, didn't it?

Supressing or counteracting a normally functioning body is an entirely different sort of action to that of correcting an abnormally functioning body.

All of your examples fall into the latter category so they are inaequate or false countereamples.

No, I'd thought about that. But here's the thing: You're assuming that the body of the transgendered individual is a normally functioning body. That is generally not that case; or if you prefer, the brain/body interface isn't working properly.

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 21, 2011 4:34 PM

I have followed the discussion thus far with interest. What I'd like to point out is I've noticed a lot of bias and interpretations on both ends of the spectrum. We all have situations that push our buttons, oftentimes unconsciously, due to our own experiences and personality. There seem to be people on the blog who dismiss gender confusion out of hand without even considering a more nuanced position. Then there are the sympathetic ones who possibly because of their own pain in life automatically take another's word for it that they were born this way because they resonate with the others' suffering. That they were born this way may be what gender-confused people feel is true, but that is merely their perception and their interpretation of their pain, possibly not Truth. This isn't to dismiss their feelings; those are real and need to be acknowledged but the cause of those feelings may not be what they think it is.

I appreciate Tammy Beth making some distinctions between various forms of gender non-conformity. For some, it might have medical roots; for others it might be "sinful", and for others still, it might be due to being molested, bonding poorly with parents, or some other emotional issues or trauma.

I also appreciate Bren giving us some scientific studies to think about. While not being a scientist myself, I read a lot of research and the media's interpretation of that science. We tend to over-simplify those findings and assume that's the last word on it. And might I remind you that scientists have their biases as well, which is why studies should be reviewed and replicated. New brain research is revealing that the brain isn't fixed at all but constantly changing due to many factors. This is called neuroplasticity. Even genes can be "turned on" due to environmental factors, so someone who thinks they were "born that way" may actually not have been, although at the time of the assessment, the medical factors may then be present. So, it no longer is a discussion between nature versus nurture but both/and. All that to say and all feelings aside on both sides, the "jury is still out" and will be for a long time to come.

Posted By: Lane | September 21, 2011 4:37 PM

First of all, Karen, Bren, Tammy Beth and others who have posted whose names I can't remember, thank you for sharing your stories. I did not know that transgender could be a medical/chemical condition; I thought of it as a primarily psychological one. (Not that psychological conditions can't also be medical, but I hope you can understand what I'm getting at - like the cross-dresser you used as an example, Tammy Beth. Transgender primarily because of experiences rather than biology.)

Some of the questions I thought of last night when I read Karen's first post have already been answered, but I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the practical implications. My starting point is that I'm a conservative evangelical who believes that the Bible teaches that sexual intercourse is for a married man and woman. If you think that makes me a bigot, I'm sorry. So far I have not been persuaded by attempts to make the Bible condone homosexual _activity_. I do not, however, believe that homosexual orientation in and of itself is sinful, and now, thanks to the discussion here, nor do I think the "true transsexuals" are either. From my point of view, it's a result of the Fall. (No matter what one's orientation/belief, though, every person is worthy of respect and should not be ridiculed or bullied. I remember stopping some acquaintances from telling gay jokes in college.)

Trying to get to my question . . . If someone told me that they had a homosexual orientation and desired to follow Jesus, I would tell them that Jesus loves them, but not to engage in homosexual activity, just like I would endeavor to stay celibate if I never married. That may seem unfair, but it seems to be what the Bible teaches. So, for both transsexuals and Biblical scholars out there, do you think there is anything besides celibacy for a transsexual from a conservative biblical point of view? I have a feeling that my categories just don't fit, but I don't know how to express it any better than that, so I hope you can have some grace for my ignorance. If the question itself is offensive, I'm sorry for it coming across that way, but I am trying to understand.

Posted By: Jennifer O | September 21, 2011 6:29 PM

Jennifer O,

I think the answer to that question is "it depends".

The Catholic Church, for example, allows full participation of transgendered people - as their birth gender. So for a Catholic, a lesbian relationship between a cisgendered ("normal") and transgendered woman is acceptable. It's also (in theory) possible for a transgendered woman to become a priest; there's at least one monk out there that's a transwoman, and I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one transman nun. (I should note that I converted to Catholicism as an adult, though I left the church before transitioning; my wife is still Catholic)

On the other hand, some might consider that the chosen gender is the correct one. In such a case, a lesbian relationship between a post-op transwoman and a cisgendered woman would be unacceptable from a conservative point of view, while a relationship that is physically similar but between a pre-op transman and a cisgendered woman is considered acceptable.

On the other hand, if you want a *very* conservative viewpoint, all post-op transgendered people need to refrain from sex entirely, because they cannot have children. But then, the same would apply to post-menopausal women (barring medical aid), sterile people, men with vasectomies, women on birth control, or women that have had hysterectomies.

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 21, 2011 7:05 PM

I don't find the question offensive, and I do agree with Karen that there is a pretty wide range of opinion which the holder would consider to be conservative.

for some "conservative" is "sex only with a person you are trying to procreate with and are married to" and for others their idea of conservative is pretty much confined to gay bashing, and there's a vast range in between.

I consider myself a conservative/libertarian. My point of view is "God looks on the inner (wo)man" and it is that part of me that stands accountable to him, not my flesh. If indeed I held the position that same sex relationships were sin, then I would reach the conclusion that I should refrain from further sexuality with women post-transition.

But the very fact that the question is asks points to the real answer - that we are asking the wrong question.

Some people are born, physically formed, neither fully male or female. I must ask myself if a loving God requires THOSE folks to live a celibate life? and if not, by what measure does he decide - and more to the point how do WE discern what the standard is since the Bible doesn't get this deep - how different is different enough to be an exception to the standard?

I confess that one of the major lines of reasoning which brought me to my current state of mind is that I cannot reconcile the God of grace I believe in with the implication of a pendactic, nitpicking, legalistic, rule-obsessed miser which is communicated by these discussions. I can't. IF in fact the God of the universe is one who's bottom line is arbitrary rules that we are not fully informed of, then we are all doomed and "eat drink and be merry" is the only rational response.

But I don't think he is. I think he's the God who inspired Romans 14. I honestly don't get how so many Christians are so very focused on Romans 1 and ignore the context of the rest of the book. For instance, this:

"I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean."

I would argue that the church has focused so intently on the minutia that we've lost site of the big picture. Virtually every reference in Scripture to "divergent" sexual activity is within the larger context of idolatry and pagan worship. And just as we rationally recognize that there is a context behind "let your women keep silent in the church" so that we do not enforce that restriction in our churches

So, to move the previous question, do we REALLY serve a God who's obsessed with the mere physical act of sex? or do we serve one who seeks believers who have a sincere heart before him?

Therefore I do not believe that the Bible teaches that homsoexual relationships are by default sinful. I believe that the context of sex as a part of pagan worship is usually overlooked ut is crucial to understanding.

More to the point, I see no Scripture at all which would define transsexualism as sinful (not even crossdressing in and of itself unless you hold the entire Levitical law as still applicable) and therefore the complex question of "who does the Lord now approve to have sex with me if anyone?" is it's own answer. The answer being that we are asking the wrong question.

But I understand that you find arguments for homosexual relationships unconvincing so to return to the context of your premise (as much as I find it unsound) - if a truly deeply conservative transsexual were convinced of God that homosexuality was in fact a sinful behavior, they would be constrained to either remain celibate lest they risk a fault, or seek a relationship with a person opposite the gender they perceived themselves to be. In that Perceive myself to be female, I cannot think otherwise than that sexuality with a woman is lesbian in nature.

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 22, 2011 12:03 AM

"That's because, no matter how much you meddle with the English language, Bono is still a "she" in an ineradicable part of her physical being."

You seem to reject the idea that the brain has anything to do with gender.

This is implied when you suggest to Karen that the transsexual has a "normally functioning" body. Self evidently we do not. At the extreme example are those with physical abnormalities relating to gender construction (such as XXY pattern)

So consider this:
if we know for a certain fact that birth defects occur...

and we know for a certain fact that some birth defects affect gender aspects of a persons body...

and we know for a certain fact that that some birth defects affect the brain (autism et al)...

and we know for a certain fact that the brain is the primary organ which determines both gender identity and sexual orientation...

(and all these are easily demonstrable scientific reality)

Then by what logic do we reject the obvious hypothesis that a person can be born with a birth defect affecting the brain related to gender identity (or sexual orientation)?

And if indeed such a defect exists, then the body of Bono, or myself, or any other transsexual is not, in point of fact, functioning normally.

If such a defect does not exist, then explain how it is that the VAST majority of transsexuals come to transition literally kicking and screaming and doing everything rational and irrational to STOP being trans, and only transition as a last resort (in fact, the first best piece of advice given to anyone considering but uncertain is - "if you can possibly live and stay sane without transition, DON'T!!")?
If there is no legitimate condition, how does "choice" or even "sin" explain that?

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 22, 2011 12:16 AM

Comment to her-meneutics

Melissa Cooper,
You must be very proud of the people who read your column and their level of maturity and compassion. I've been drawn to return to read the comments several times and I must admit I have been nervously expecting the gracious exchange to deteriorate, but it hasn't. 

What must be remembered is that transsexuals who finally choose to make the physical changes do so at a great cost. Aside from the financial costs for surgery, facial hair removal, possible cosmetic surgeries (which are almost exclusively borne by the person) there is the potential loss of family, employement, social standing and friends. The risks taken have to be weighed against the hoped for improved sense of congruency and inetrity as a person. 

This is where the rubber meets the road, the messy business of life can be complicated even without having the added stress of gender dysphoria. We are your neighbors and is it so unreasonable for us to hope for more than just tolerance and acceptance, especially from those who profess to be followers of Jesus Christ? 

I am not saying that by virtue of being transgender we deserve or want to be treated specially, we just long for equality...for the same rights that any straight or heterosexual person might expect and or feel entitled to. In this, we are like our LGB sisters and brothers, but unfortunatly we have challenges that go beyond their collective experience. Though some estimates are that Transgender persons only make up about one quarter of one percent of the population, that means there are one hundred and eighty thousand transgender Americans. That is about equal to the population of Austin, TX.

All this to say that life for us is not trivial, and when as a group we have a disproportionate suicide rate of up to forty percent, by some estimates, it is never too late to change society's narrow understanding of gender identity. And for those of us whose faith has been a source of strength and comfort, I would agree with what Rev. Julie added above, "Should it surprise us that transgender people feel closer to God when we seek to live a life of integrity by living in concurrence with how God made us?" for this has been my experience. I know it sounds sappy to say that we all have our own crosses to bear and it therefore behooves all of us to extend compassion and mercy to others, that really is the bottom line, especially as Christians. 

In closing, I am encouraged by this comment thread because the questions posed have been respectful and honest, for the most part, and comments offered have demonstrated this is not a "life style" choice or some degenerate or fetishistic sexual behavior. 

One final thought occurred to me, I would have loved to have had this as a group discussion in person with all of you who have commented so far...I feel like I have met new friends. And to think this all started with a discussion about a dance competition, yet discussions like this one have implications that go beyond the dance floor.

Grace and peace to all of you.

Posted By: Lisa Salazar | September 22, 2011 12:59 AM

Kamilla,

Just throwing this out there to you in regards to your statement:

" Bono is still a "she" in an inerradicable part of her physical being. If that weren't so, she wouldn't require constant hormone therapy, and so on and so on."

Here is an example for you to hopefully think about. I was born with female parts and female XX chromosomes but feel completely male and have since childhood. I have yet to medically transition, then you would probably apply your above statement to me as well as Chaz, BUT please take this into consideration:

When I was trying my best to be what the world considered "normal" and married. I wanted children. After about 4-5 years of no success we went to a specialist and discovered that I needed medications to make that happen. (Hormones) Basically, in order for my (to the outward appearance) female body to do female things, I had to take a battery of female hormones to accomplish this. I needed one to make me have a monthly, and then a separate one to make me ovulate every single month for several months. The first pregnancy didn't "kick" me into gear and I had to repeat the process for my second child a couple of years later.

So in essence to make my girl body function as a girl body I had to take girl hormones. This isn't hypothetical either...it happened to me.

Posted By: Lance | September 22, 2011 8:50 AM

I also saw your comment:

"Supressing or counteracting a normally functioning body is an entirely different sort of action to that of correcting an abnormally functioning body."

Just throwing this out there also, though a person's body make look normally functioning to you means nothing really with all sincere due respect. ( I just saw this comment after posting above).

Besides wanting children, deep down I guess I hoped this would "fix" me. It temporarily fixed a malfunctioning seemingly normal body, but fter the meds stopped, my normal looking body zinged out of whack again, and my brain or way I thought of myself never changed. I thank the Lord for two children (now teens) that know the whole story about me, and love me, love the Lord and love "different" people that cross their paths in life and know that there are always circumstances of some sort or another that make people "different" from the "norm". They also know they are my precious longed for children that I basically went through hormonal treatment hell for to get. They know they were wanted THAT much.

Posted By: Lance | September 22, 2011 9:00 AM

Kamila, the comments you made about Chaz that Lance responded to, remind me of comments made to me by Michael Brown, author of "A Queer Thing Happened to America." I challenged his very negative comments about Transgender and transsexual persons and we ended up in a lengthy exchange that consumed close to twenty thousand words on one of his web sites. One of the most telling and contentiously insensitive things this man did was to always put my name, Lisa, in quotes. When challenged about this, he stated that in good conscience before God, he had to use quotes because he knew I was really a man to God and always would be. I have no doubt that if he were writing comments on this thread, he would be using quotes around Lance, Newly Karen, Bren, Rev. Julie and any of the other trans persons who have contributed comments on this thread. 

I'm convinced God is not as worried about what is between our legs as he is what is between our lungs. To base one's view of human sexuality on only the physical is somewhat simplistic. If we believe Jesus is God, then we are allowed to say God himself admitted sexuality is not binary to begin with. He said as much when he talked about eunuchs in Matt. 19. not everyone born fits into a tidy little male or female box. And if that is the case, that there is this kind of fluidity, who has the right to draw lines of delineation along the gender spectrum as to who is what?I don't mean to minimize heterosexuality by saying this, but we should at least be willing to admit that none of us chose where we would fall in this spectrum. If you are a straight, heterosexual person, I am so happy for you, at least you have been spared a whole lot of stuff. But that does not mean that those of us who fall in other parts of the spectrum should be marginalized or left out of being full participants in life. 

Posted By: Lisa Salazar | September 22, 2011 10:17 AM

Lance, if you had to take birth control pills to have normal cycles on time, and then later take Clomid to ovulate regularly, that puts you into a giant group of people, and definitely not a tiny minority. Many young women take birth control pills to regulate their cycles, and many of that same group need Clomid or something similar to ovulate or to ovulate on time. The normal dose is 1 Clomid a day for 5 days, and I had to take 3 Clomid daily for 5 days. I ended up with 3 beautiful children. For the record, Clomid is not one of the drugs where you end up with several children, it's the injectable drugs that can cause that. You have a very slightly higher chance of having twins, that's it. Yet, I am totally female, love being a female and have been married for over 25 years. So, if those happened to you, it has nothing to do with what sex you "really" are. So, perhaps I'm assuming incorrectly, but if you're just saying that you took birth control to have regular periods, and then had to take Clomid to ovulate, you belonged to a huge group of females who never considered themselves to be male, nor should they.

Posted By: Kathy L | September 22, 2011 10:25 AM

Kathy L
Lance, if you had to take birth control pills to have normal cycles on time, and then later take Clomid to ovulate regularly, that puts you into a giant group of people, and definitely not a tiny minority. Many young women take birth control pills to regulate their cycles, and many of that same group need Clomid or something similar to ovulate or to ovulate on time. The normal dose is 1 Clomid a day for 5 days, and I had to take 3 Clomid daily for 5 days. I ended up with 3 beautiful children. For the record, Clomid is not one of the drugs where you end up with several children, it's the injectable drugs that can cause that. You have a very slightly higher chance of having twins, that's it. Yet, I am totally female, love being a female and have been married for over 25 years. So, if those happened to you, it has nothing to do with what sex you "really" are. So, perhaps I'm assuming incorrectly, but if you're just saying that you took birth control to have regular periods, and then had to take Clomid to ovulate, you belonged to a huge group of females who never considered themselves to be male, nor should they.

Kathy,

I don't think Lance was thinking in terms of the need to do that making him special, or trans. He was saying that there's no evidence that his body was "working properly" to begin with - in reply to the comment by Kamilla that " Bono is still a "she" in an inerradicable part of her physical being. If that weren't so, she wouldn't require constant hormone therapy, and so on and so on.".

In other words, he had a physical issue related to hormones that did not necessarily have a direct connection to being transgendered, but was still outside the "norm".

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 22, 2011 10:35 AM

One of the most pointed lessons I learned in my life was a few years ago. The most bizarre thing that had ever happened in my church going life took place. In the span of 29 days, in the little church family I was attending at the time, 5 people went home to be with the Lord. Five.

One thing that was said without exception upon looking at the body displayed for burial (and often repeated throughout the course of each funeral by people attending) was "That is not them, they are not there. That is just the shell that carried them through life." Though we wept for their loss, everyone without exception knew that the empty vessel in the front of the building was NOT them. THEY had gone on home to their Savior.

I asked once, "WHY does it take death for people to accept that reality?" Basically why don't we look at that while the person is still walking and breathing and living life? I am not comfortable in my own skin. Someday I may be able to change that. Whether or not, has no bearing on the fact that I turned my heart and my soul over to God once and for all when I reconciled to Him. I was even willing for Him to change my mind to match my body, though even in the wildest stretch of imagination I could not comprehend NOT feeling male. As I stated in an above post, He DID change a lot in me, delivered me from things that put a wedge between us, but I feel just as male today as I did the day I surrendered to him.

This body is just my shell, and I have and still ask him to help me keep a check on my motives behind everything I do. So basically if I am ever to change, it will not be to rebel against God, or fly my finger in His face...it will be to live more comfortably in this skin that will eventually die and no longer will it even be an issue...the heart and spirit that has loved Him will be then face to face with Him.

Posted By: Lance | September 22, 2011 10:39 AM

Thank you Newly Karen...you summed it up well. :)

Posted By: Lance | September 22, 2011 10:42 AM

Kathy L,
Just noticed something I missed in what you wrote. Birth control pills were never an issue. I haven't been hormonally right since puberty, thus the specialist we sought to have children. Considering that was almost 19 years ago, I couldn't quote to you verbatim how he explained it to me, but in essence, after hearing my entire history and how things went for me from about age thirteen he deduced that my body had NEVER functioned properly, and that's when he introduced the meds to make me "work right" to have my kids. Interestingly when I came out to him as transgender a couple of years ago, he was not shocked in the slightest.

Posted By: Lance | September 22, 2011 11:02 AM

We live in a society that winks at what 50-70 years ago would have been unthinkable - and yes, even then there were men and women who wanted what the other gender had. Always have been. It is not a new issue. There are reasons for the Biblical admonishments.

Yes, the person is hurting, but the bigger issue is how does this reflect on the holiness of a God who formed us in the womb? Did God make a mistake? Or do we decide that we know better than God and refuse to figure out how to "be content in whatever state we find ourselves" to "be thankful for everything for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."

Again and again I hear rationalizations for the struggle of the besieged person. This column was about a person who feels like the other gender and is getting national headlines. Other headlines this week focus on Pat Robertson's nod to divorce to one married to an Alzheimer's patient, totally ignoring "let none put asunder."

When we do not look beyond our discomfort, our misery and say "The Lord gives, the Lord takes away, Blessed be the name of the Lord," we miss the whole point of His sovereignty to make and place us in whatever circumstances He pleases ... and expects us to find Him in those circumstances.

Joni Eareckson Tada is the example I encountered early in my adulthood. She was an active, athletic woman sent to the wheelchair before her adult life really began. And yet, in spite of all that, she chose to embrace God in the midst of her circumstances and find a way to serve Him with her physical limitations.

Certainly she struggled with the same basic issues as the person wanting to be the other gender. "I don't like the body I am in." "I feel that I would be better suited without a broken neck and able live with a whole body." "This is causing me a great deal of emotional distress to be stuck in this kind of body." "No one understands how difficult this is." From her biography we know she struggled with suicidal thoughts.

But ... she found a different solution to her irreversible medical problem. She found a way to serve God even with a medical condition that did not meet her inborn expectations. Through that acceptance of God's will in her life, she has become a testimony of God's grace even in the midst of a body that fails to meet her expectations.

In America we spend way too much time seeking personal comfort whether it is physical, emotional or psychological while the majority of the people in the world struggle to have even a fraction of what we enjoy.

It's not about me ... it is about God. We are created, made, formed for His glory, His honor, His pleasure, not our own. When an entertainer chooses the broad way because they are uncomfortable, we do not have to participate by watching, approving or remaking God into our own image.

We can choose a more God honoring way to spend our time during DWTS such as having a conversation with a lonely family member, preparing for next week's lesson at church, taking a prayer walk and getting some exercise instead of sitting and watching other people exercise through dance. Or if we need background noise, we have a lot of other options in channels, radio programs, CDs and DVDs.

We all struggle with something, compassion says, "yes it hurts, but Christ is sufficient for even this."

Posted By: Joan Hershberger | September 22, 2011 2:57 PM

I'm going to break this down into different sections. Hopefully the italics will work properly.

Joan Hersheberger
We live in a society that winks at what 50-70 years ago would have been unthinkable - and yes, even then there were men and women who wanted what the other gender had. Always have been. It is not a new issue. There are reasons for the Biblical admonishments.

Yes, the person is hurting, but the bigger issue is how does this reflect on the holiness of a God who formed us in the womb? Did God make a mistake? Or do we decide that we know better than God and refuse to figure out how to "be content in whatever state we find ourselves" to "be thankful for everything for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."

I've already described my thoughts on this matter. Here's a question, a little blunter than I've put it before: I believe that God could foresee the corruption of my body, and provided me a female soul that I may find peace. Are you saying that he couldn't have done that, or are you saying that you do not believe he would have done that?

Let me put it another way - I'm willing, on judgement day, to go before God and tell him "Lord, here I am. I made the choice to make of myself a new being; if this does not please you, I am sorry. I believed with an honest heart that I was doing your will, and I hope that others could take that belief and use it to come to you."

I think that's a far more preferable statement than "Lord, here I am. I made the choice to judge others, and through my judgement I have driven many away that could have been saved."

Furthermore, I take serious exception to the idea that I - and others like me - haven't tried. I have. I tried giving Him the burden. I tried prayer. I tried to ignore it. I tried to deal with it through confession. I struggled, and struggled, and struggled with it.

Again and again I hear rationalizations for the struggle of the besieged person. This column was about a person who feels like the other gender and is getting national headlines. Other headlines this week focus on Pat Robertson's nod to divorce to one married to an Alzheimer's patient, totally ignoring "let none put asunder."

Speaking personally, I think that Mr. Robertson's incorrect in his beliefs. But then, I'm very conservative when it comes to some things - the arguments I used to have with my father about gay marriage tended to devolve to "The Catholic Church believes that your marriage is invalid because of divorce, but the state recognizes it. How is it right that my marriage - which the Catholic Church will always recognize - will not be considered legal after I complete my transition?"

When we do not look beyond our discomfort, our misery and say "The Lord gives, the Lord takes away, Blessed be the name of the Lord," we miss the whole point of His sovereignty to make and place us in whatever circumstances He pleases ... and expects us to find Him in those circumstances.

Joni Eareckson Tada is the example I encountered early in my adulthood. She was an active, athletic woman sent to the wheelchair before her adult life really began. And yet, in spite of all that, she chose to embrace God in the midst of her circumstances and find a way to serve Him with her physical limitations.

Certainly she struggled with the same basic issues as the person wanting to be the other gender. "I don't like the body I am in." "I feel that I would be better suited without a broken neck and able live with a whole body." "This is causing me a great deal of emotional distress to be stuck in this kind of body." "No one understands how difficult this is." From her biography we know she struggled with suicidal thoughts.

But ... she found a different solution to her irreversible medical problem. She found a way to serve God even with a medical condition that did not meet her inborn expectations. Through that acceptance of God's will in her life, she has become a testimony of God's grace even in the midst of a body that fails to meet her expectations.

I find this logic to be fallacious in general. If there was a surgical technique that could restore her ability to walk, would it be wrong of her to do so? After all, God must have meant for her to be disabled. That's what you are telling me - All I'm doing is having the issue fixed. That's it. It's like to giving sight to the blind or hearing to the deaf; it's dealing with the issue in the only way our society can. Do I think it's right for everyone? Of course not! Do I think I'm being prideful, and possibly making choices over God's will? I don't believe so, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

In America we spend way too much time seeking personal comfort whether it is physical, emotional or psychological while the majority of the people in the world struggle to have even a fraction of what we enjoy.

It's not about me ... it is about God. We are created, made, formed for His glory, His honor, His pleasure, not our own. When an entertainer chooses the broad way because they are uncomfortable, we do not have to participate by watching, approving or remaking God into our own image.

We can choose a more God honoring way to spend our time during DWTS such as having a conversation with a lonely family member, preparing for next week's lesson at church, taking a prayer walk and getting some exercise instead of sitting and watching other people exercise through dance. Or if we need background noise, we have a lot of other options in channels, radio programs, CDs and DVDs.

On this, I completely agree. I don't watch DWTS, and never will. Not that what I do is necessarily any better; we all need some downtime after all.

We all struggle with something, compassion says, "yes it hurts, but Christ is sufficient for even this."

We do all struggle with something. And this is a struggle. It's just not the struggle with God we all believe it to be.

Here's a question - what about intersex people? Those born with physical signs of both genders? If an intersex person has one of those altered as a child, and then shows signs of being the other gender as they grow - are they allowed to transition? Or would that be wrong as well?

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 22, 2011 4:12 PM

Joan,

"But ... she found a different solution to her irreversible medical problem. She found a way to serve God even with a medical condition that did not meet her inborn expectations. Through that acceptance of God's will in her life, she has become a testimony of God's grace even in the midst of a body that fails to meet her expectations."

I would humbly ask you to read back through some of our testimonies given, I know several of the people who wrote them and they are wonderful Christian ladies. They love God with all of their heart, they serve Him. I would sincerely ask that that be taken into less consideration what they have done (or not done) to their bodies. Thier hearts are totally in love with the Master...

Many of us have ALSO become a testimony of God's grace to our brothers and sisters simply because we are still alive. Without God's grace many of us would be in the grave today. Many of us are trying desperately to pull them back from the brink and fix their eyes on God instead of their circumstances. We are living examples of relationship to Him, whether anyone that is not trans understands or agrees with the fact that we can have that relationship. I know where I was 4 and a half years ago and where I am now. I can ONLY give the glory to Him. Honestly and humbly I must say...If anyone wants to tell me what I have is impossible, they've come along too late. Jesus has already set up camp in my heart, and we are having a wonderful time.

I can agree with you on one point though:

"We can choose a more God honoring way to spend our time during DWTS such as having a conversation with a lonely family member, preparing for next week's lesson at church, taking a prayer walk and getting some exercise instead of sitting and watching other people exercise through dance."

Though I get involved in the more supportive end of the trans community in things like this, I often have to step back and remind myself that I need to keep interaction with people (and of course the Lord)...and that's the whole reason I believe I was given this cross to bear. I could easily get wrapped up waving the trans equality flag because it IS close to my heart, but in doing so I may get so busy that I don't notice one of my brothers or sisters (trans or not) hurting and needing me. I never want the balance to get skewed like that.

Posted By: Anonymous | September 22, 2011 4:20 PM

Don't know why they posted that as from "Anonymous"...that was me! :)

Posted By: Lance | September 22, 2011 4:40 PM

I can't believe that anyone would consider DWTS a family show in the first place. Whenever my husband and I see a clip for that show we feel awkward...there is SO much sexuality displayed on the show already...just because it is "normative" sexuality doesn't make it "family entertainment."

Posted By: charity | September 22, 2011 7:48 PM

I'm sorry if this gets long, but I find opportunities like this impossible to resist. Joan's post includes several points which i think need a direct response:

"We live in a society that winks at what 50-70 years ago would have been unthinkable"

Indeed. but 50-70 years ago we would have thought it unthinkable that a white person would marry a black person. the old way is not always the best or most righteous way. Go back another 100 years and no one thought it strange that people might own that black person. and yes, in both cases and many more, the majority of the "mainstream" church was right out there on the wrong side of the issue.

"Yes, the person is hurting, but the bigger issue is how does this reflect on the holiness of a God who formed us in the womb? Did God make a mistake?"

Would you say the same if we had a procedure to give hearing to one born deaf? We must not perform the procedure because God did not make a mistake?
In fact, would you describe ANY birth defect as "God made a mistake on that one"?

Secondly, how does treatment for gender identity issues reflect dishonor on god exactly? Where in the Bible does it say that such is outside his will?

third, the Bible says "God looks upon the heart" - if HE isn't worried about the fleshly shell, why are we so uptight about it?

"do we decide that we know better than God and refuse to figure out how to "be content in whatever state we find ourselves" to "be thankful for everything for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.""

Again, do you give this advice to others? Let us say your dear friend needs stints in her heart to avoid a fatal heart attack, or your brother has operable cancer - would you advise those people to "be content"? It is God's will for you to have a heart attack and fall out dead so it's wrong to try to avoid that?

"When we do not look beyond our discomfort, our misery and say "The Lord gives, the Lord takes away, Blessed be the name of the Lord," we miss the whole point of His sovereignty to make and place us in whatever circumstances He pleases ... and expects us to find Him in those circumstances. "

Indeed. But that's like saying a person who finds themselves unemployed and broke should be content with poverty and not seek employment. I think you miss the point of the passage you cite. God does not call us to resign ourselves to misery, he calls us to glorify him in our circumstances. This applies particularly to the situation you CAN'T change, rather than counseling us to not change the things we can.

"Joni Eareckson Tada is the example I encountered early in my adulthood. She was an active, athletic woman sent to the wheelchair before her adult life really began. And yet, in spite of all that, she chose to embrace God in the midst of her circumstances and find a way to serve Him with her physical limitations."

So if they had offered her an opportunity to be healed and made whole you would have advised her to decline?

"But ... she found a different solution to her irreversible medical problem."

Given that she has an IRREVERSIBLE condition, your analogy is flawed since she had no opportunity to choose to accept her circumstances vs improving them.

"We all struggle with something, compassion says, "yes it hurts, but Christ is sufficient for even this." "

And we certainly need to avail ourselves of this blessing - given that even as we make ourselves whole we often are confronted with hostility, hatred, and rejection even from those who are supposed to love us most dearly. It is for THIS which I claim the healing wings of Christ. Because while a hormone pill or a surgeon's knife can make my body tolerable to me, no act of man can heal my heart when my soul mate (or a parent or a sibling or a friend) utterly rejects me - that is strength only god can give me.

How do I honor him in this process? first, by showing love to those who hate and reject me, and secondly by trying to reach the hearts and minds of those who have been deceived and by their misconception are at risk of tragically rejecting their own child, sibling, or spouse - by educating them about the error of their thinking.

I hope this very thread serves to educate my brothers and sisters in Christ so that somewhere out there a young transsexual person is not driven to despair and death because well intentioned Christians reject him or her.

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 23, 2011 1:45 AM

I'm really curious about the "God doesn't make mistakes" view, because it seems like a total non-sequitor to me. Nothing about "my body doesn't match my gender" is saying God made a mistake, nor is surgically correcting the body.

Why is it only trans people who must suffer without treatment for their disability, when we wouldn't call out even extreme medical intervention to help any other person born with a birth defect have a normal life?

Now, if you also said that say, taking antibiotics was thwarting God's Will, well, I would disagree, but at least you would be consistant. There certainly are Christians who feel antibiotics are sin, but they are very far from the mainstream. Or, if not antibiotics, then say, splinting an arm. Or keeping a premature baby in an incubator. Or any of the other modern medical interventions.

Posted By: Rebecca | September 23, 2011 10:14 AM

"The tricky part is that what some believe to be a psychological condition, such as GID, becomes a sin. compassionate church-based care, and professional help......
... believing those seeking gender-reassignment surgery are mentally sick."

A few years ago, the American Medical Association published an open letter of recommendation to the health insurance industry advocating that the treatment of GID cease to be excluded from coverage because the AMA recognizes GID as a medical condition, not psychological, that has thus far only been successfully treated by hormonal and surgical means. The AMA further recognizes that to exclude this treatment from coverage is both unethical and uncompassionate. Whereas I recognize that many people may disagree with this stance, may I point out that the AMA has the most access to the clinical studies and evidence supporting their conclusions, rather than the average Joe, and it is their duty to fully investigate that evidence and reach scientific and ethical conclusions. I applaud them for taking a stand for those they care for. I have seen statistics concerning the success rate of this treatment in the relief of the condition of GID and those figures are better than almost all other medical procedures done by the medical community, (>98%). Perhaps if people were to inform themselves before reaching a conclusion they would be better people. Some, unfortunately, are content to remain in the comfort of ignorance, being fully persuaded by only that which they can understand and relate to.

Posted By: Stephanie | September 23, 2011 11:10 AM

Joan--Do you really think that on judgment day you will be explaining yourself, describing yourself, talking about yourself at all? On judgment day, God will ask if you accept that you bring nothing with you, and can only stand before Him because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

Transgender people, self-righteous people, all people, will not stand before God because they were good enough or loving enough or performed enough. They will be able to stand before God because of Jesus.

Posted By: Laura | September 23, 2011 7:15 PM

Thanks, Tammy Beth, for bringing up the medical issues. I've read all the comments and nobody else has even suggested that our medical technology is a part of this confusion. As a nurse for 20 years I saw many situations that made me think, "are we trying to play God?" When does our ability to do something medically become "wrong" or unethical? I can think of multiple examples: keeping a person who is "brain dead" alive (via tube feedings or ventilator, etc.), in vitro fertilization (and all that entails including surrogate motherhood), organ transplants, neonatal ICU care, plastic surgery, hormone treatment, and on and on. This is why we have such a huge problem with health care in our country (but that's another topic).
Anyways, my main point is this:
God has given us the intelligence to make all these medical advances, but because we CAN do something SHOULD we?
TV and the internet have done much good, but they have also been tools for evil. I think this is true of medical technology.
I'm just not sure how to make decisions about these things that are biblically based and God pleasing. Any thoughts?

Posted By: Sherry | September 23, 2011 10:47 PM

Oops - it was Rebecca who brought up the medical intervention issue.

Posted By: Sherry | September 23, 2011 10:53 PM

Excellent post, Tim. It's true that there are more and more heterosexuals cohabiting (which is sad, the poor woman just gets used, then pregnant, until the guy leaves her) I don't think transgender is that big of an issue to worry about; I'm more worried about the increasing number of babies being born out of wedlock to teenage girls (which is prevalent here in Florida anyways) who cannot get married since the guys always leave town. I do not know why these girls are even being around boys to begin with. Guess their parents do not forbid them the company of the opposite gender.

Posted By: Anonymous | September 25, 2011 5:38 PM

As to the "God doesn't make mistakes" issue, would any of you say that to someone whose baby was born with spina bifida or any other birth defect and needed surgery? I don't see how this issue is different from any other birth defect needing correcting.

Posted By: K. | September 26, 2011 12:09 AM

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but I just wanted to say thank you to Karen and Tammy Beth for responding to my question. Even if you disagreed with my assumptions as a conservative evangelical, I appreciate your taking the time to answer from that starting place.

Just one thing I wanted to respond to from Tammy Beth's answer: I personally don't find my question pointing to a nit picky God because I start with the premise that He created human sexual intercourse to (ideally) be much more than a simple physical act, and it's because of that I think what He's revealed in Scripture about sex to be important. But I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Whatever the case, thank you all again for sharing your stories. I see hearts that are seeking after God, and I will be praying for you as siblings in Christ.

Posted By: Jennifer O | September 26, 2011 10:33 AM

It seems that many people have forgotten about the fall of creation. The image of God has "cracked" so to speak, and we are born with original sin. The fall came to all of creation. Before the fall, the animals didn't attack and eat each other, and plants grew without weeds and thorns. Another thing many people have forgotten is the need for repentance. We are loved and saved if we believe, but we must repent of our sins, and the Holy Spirit then works on us to conform more to His image. They should read Colossians chapter 3 and many more places, where we're to put our old ways of sin aside, and put on the new man.

Posted By: Nancy | September 26, 2011 1:33 PM

Nancy, so what is your point? Instead on third person inference, just spit it out. ("They should read...") Are you saying that if we read the verses from Colossians we will see the error of our ways? But the fact is creation IS broken and Jesus didn't do anything to change that while he was here. On a few instances he miraculously reversed and or corrected a few things, but for the most part left things as they were, broken. To imply and infer that as believers we are called to experience a restored ceation after conversion is not supported by scripture. Is it? Paul prayed for his thorn in the flesh to be removed, but it wasn't. And the Ethiopian eunuch didn't cease to be a eunuch after conversion. Wouldn't you say these two serve as examples of what life really looks like in your "fall of creation" model? Yet, both Paul and the eunuch were both 'committed Christians,' as are we, the transgender persons who have commented on this thread. Our hope for commenting is to help you and other believers see that one can be a Christian and a transsexual at the same time and the two are not mutually exclusive.

Posted By: Lisa salazar | September 26, 2011 4:23 PM

Lisa salazar notes: "one can be a Christian and a transsexual at the same time and the two are not mutually exclusive." Of course one can and of course they're not.

God has chosen a lot of different kinds of people to inhabit his kingdom. Whether those people are transsexuals who consider their bodies messed up and needing correction or someone who needs some other type of correction (and we all have plenty of those needs: physical, emotional, moral, etc.), our heavenly Father - in his sovereignty - calls us to himself in order to conform us to the image of his Son by the power of the Holy Spirit, all for the glory of God.

I'm so glad he does.

Cheers,
Tim

P.S. Anonymous at 9/25 5:38 p.m., thanks for the encouragement. I see so many people in my courtroom who had children without marrying first. By the time they get to the court system, of course, it's a pretty bad situation. For the most part (although there are notable exceptions), unmarried parents and their children are in worse situations than married parents and their children who find themselves here.

Posted By: Tim | September 26, 2011 6:49 PM

@Sherry - you wrote:
"God has given us the intelligence to make all these medical advances, but because we CAN do something SHOULD we?
TV and the internet have done much good, but they have also been tools for evil. I think this is true of medical technology.
I'm just not sure how to make decisions about these things that are biblically based and God pleasing. Any thoughts?"

My reply to your first question is "not if we can see material harm being done worse that that which would occur had we not acted." the point of disagreement seems to come from those who are not afflicted with this condition presuming to tell those of us who are to "live with it" because, basically, it creeps them out for us to transition.

there's not really much of a Biblical case at all concerning transsexuals. I can see (though I disagree with) the Scriptural argument against homosexuality but there's pretty much nothing there on my condition - so why all the charges of "sin"?

As far as I can see, in sincerely seeking his will for my life, I just can't reconcile the idea that the God of grace who's forgiven a multitude of sins and keeps me his by his power and not my behavior with the sort of God who's reaction to my condition would be, essentially, "sucks to be you"

My argument is that Christians too easily read their personal biases into Scripture, and all the more so when their own bias lines up with the prevailing bias of the culture in which the live and move. Fifty years ago most Southern Christians considered it "unscriptural" for the races to mix. As a given. Because that was what "everybody knew"
Now, almost none of them would argue it was a Biblical teaching even if they are still racist. the bible didn't change, the culture did.

Fifty years from now, you'll be hard pressed to find Christians who will argue that gay marriage (for instance) or being transsexual is "unblblical"

some will call that "falling away" from the bible - but none who do would take a stand and say "we had it right on the race thing until we backslid on that issue" would they?

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 27, 2011 2:04 AM

By the way, the latest revision of the Standards of Care for Transsexuals was released this weekend and among many positive developments, they came out strongly AGAINST the idea that being transsexual is a "mental disorder" and called again for removal from the DSM and the reclassification of our condition as a medical one (instead of a psychological one)and be respected as such.

Scientific understanding of the condition, it's nature, and causes has progressed at an astonishing rate over the last couple of decades.

Posted By: Tammy_Beth | September 27, 2011 2:10 AM

How does Chaz feel when Christians protest his involvment?

Posted By: Dave | September 27, 2011 11:52 AM

By the way, this is why Chaz wants to make it more visible.

http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_summary.pdf

Excerpt from one of the surveys:

“My mother disowned me. I was fired from my job after 18 years of loyal employment. I was forced onto public assistance to survive. But still I have pressed forward, started a new career, and rebuilt my immediate family. You are defined not by falling, but how well you rise after falling. I’m a licensed practical nurse now and am studying to become an RN. I have walked these streets and been harassed nearly every day, but I will not change. I am back out there the next day with my head up.”

Posted By: Newly Karen | September 27, 2011 10:32 PM

Although I'm a prison and orphanage ministering, Sunday School Superintendent, biblical scholar who is chaste for her station in life, I don’t see this as sin. Research shows that trans genders have brains similar to the other sex. Could it be that the testosterone wash that was supposed to turn 50% of all fetuses male performed inadequately so instead transgenders came out only "half gendered?" If that’s the case it’s like us persecuting left handedness, epilespcy or nearsightedness. Some transgenders them refer to their sex organs as disgusting. That doesn’t sound like a choice to me. Typically their parents throw them out. Some are even reduced to selling their bodies of support themselves. Again, not a choice because who would make that one? How screwed up would we be if our parents or circumstances caused either to happen to us? Additionally, I don’t think little kids understand that Chaz is a male to female transgender, so they won’t ask any questions. That is the parent’s bias. To hear people say this is disgusting saddens me. They can only think of sex when they see Chaz? Are they sickened when they realize that 80% of church attending single “Christians” are sexually active? As a committed single Christian THAT hurts me because it makes me feel even more alone and realize that the probability of my finding a godly mate is very low. It also produces the 40% of American children that are born out of wedlock which are a drain on society and unfair to the children. Why don’t we fix the hetero problem before we work on the small percentage of people that are LGTB, or remove the beam from our own eye so we can adequately see and understand the speck in our brothers that himor her so tremendously that he cuts off his breasts/penis!

Posted By: Grizzly Bear Mom | October 4, 2011 2:42 PM

I like that some Christians don't judge on gender, because God is the only one who can judge. People who cry about someone being homosexual and demand them to change are defying their God, and trying to play the role themselves. The only scripture that states anything about sexual oriantion is that man should lay with woman, but it DOES not state that if that's not followed you will go to hell. People read out of context and take things the wrong way. What about the scripture where it states if a woman is not married and has sex, she is condemned to death. Why do they not follow that? I'm simply saying that people who judge are hypocrites. I'm not defneding Chaz, I'm defending his choices. You can't make yourself be attracted to the other sex, it comes naturally, therefore you can not choose.You can't pick which chemicals are in your brain! I wish he would have been voted off because DWTS is about dancing, all this man does is walk around.

Posted By: Pebble | October 4, 2011 9:44 PM

i just have a couple of things to say. first, i dont hate chaz bono. but she is not a man. she has no testicles. she has ovaries and a uterus. that means she is female, no matter how many hormone injections she gets. DWTS is a DANCING competition but the gays have turned it into a vehicle for their agenda. i was sadly not surprised, when a talented dancing team was booted off last week, while clumsy and barely talented chaz remained. im sure that happened because thousands of gays voted their little fingers to the bone. this dancing show is supposed to be about male and female couples dancing for a prize. yet watching chaz is like watching two girls dancing. how can any results on this show be valid when it appears winners are not selected by ability but by a political agenda.? at any rate, you can be sure that this season, the voting results will be skewed.

Posted By: wendy | October 8, 2011 6:24 PM

Pebble, since you are responding to a blog that has a Christian theme, I hope I am not presumptuous to assume that you believe in and try to abide by the Bible. Please indulge me in taking a look at Romans 13:1, which says, "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Chaz lives in California. Chaz has followed the state of California's legal requirements for correcting his gender marker (as have I). As the state of California's government has been "established" by God's sovereignty, for you to affirmatively deny Chaz's status as a man disrespects him, but also disrespects the authority that approved that change. If the possession of testicles is your litmus test for manhood...then you litmus test applied to me would affirm the adjustment in my gender status, which was also approved by the same authorities "established by God."

We, like all of you, are sinners, in need of grace, for just as many issues as you have. There are some very complex medical and bio-psychological issues related to this issue. If you are able to live and keep your vessel in an orderly fashion, and glorify God, working with your hands and minding your own business..then, by all means, do so. One should not let external passions of this world drive you to pursue something this extraordinary. But, when one's daily existence is so disturbed because of a mind/body conflict, that every other available medical, psychological, and spiritual (if any) option have been unable to adequately address this issue, then, though it may not be ideal, it is "lawful" to avail oneself of medical intervention, even if it is not "ideal" or the most "profitable". (1 Cor. 10:23) It should be the rare exception, and even then, there will be plenty of difficulties. I solicit the Spirit in you to be kind; most of us are just trying to live our lives, just as you are. I appeal to you to be long-suffering; we all make mistakes. I pray that God may increase our compassion for one-another; I too am your sibling in faith, and you have not walked in my shoes. I entreat you to also think about "those gay people" and "those transsexuals" in the light of John 3:16, for God love us too, enough to send His Son to die for all of us. Jesus' offer of grace by faith, resulting in sanctification, justification, and reconciliation is also offered to eunuchs...who may also be legally and medically male or female, according to God's appointed authorities. God has given you a commission, to go to even people like us, and demonstrate His love, as an ambassador of His grace, if we will cast ourselves on the mercy of God through faith. But, if you have in your heart that our issues are beyond God's grace, and we as people are unworthy of your patience, kindness, forbearance, and unconditional love...then ask you to reconsider the words of the Apostle John, who said, "He who does not love, does not know God, for God is love." I exhort you to consider what steps you can take to love your neighbor, your family member, your coworker, or celebrities who expose themselves to the full weight of public ridicule...who may happen to be transgender/transsexual. Some are believers, and they will persevere, even if you make their path harder to bear. Some are not yet believers; will you be an influence that leads them closer to God, as an extension of Christ through the Spirit, or will you be an instrument of the enemy, to embitter them and drive them away from the Gospel of grace? Sadly, some religious people have become more like the religious people of Christ's day, who looked down their noses at those they regarded as more sinful than they were, even disapproving of the Lord talking and interacting with such sinners. But, thanks be to God who will cause us both to stand in that day because He is able to transform us entirely, so that both you and I will be without spot or wrinkle, and as to gender...it will probably be irrelevant, as we will be like the angels. Peace to you in Christ

Posted By: Bren Breithaupt | May 10, 2012 6:04 PM

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